Guild Wars 2

Black Teagan.9215:

evilapprentice.6379:

Black Teagan.9215:

My suggestion for S/D is:

Flanking Strike: Cost: 3 Ini

Larcenous Strike: Cost: 5 Ini ; Steal 3 boons [or Steal 2 boons with the full duration]

Your suggestion is silly. This would turn a fight against an S/D thief into “Dodge LS to win”, or from the thief’s perspective “Save your initiative for skills that aren’t horribly overcosted”

LS was working as intended as far as a soft counter (not a hard counter, mind you) to boon bunkers – it should just be reverted back to how it was, or just shaved a little bit rather than having it’s utility nerfed into the ground.

Another suggestion, Give FS 1 boon steal/strip, and LS 1 boon steal.

Do you (really) think my suggestion is worse, than the abuse of permaevades from Sword #3 how it currently is?

What permaevade? You mean the evade you can use, at max, 50% of the time if you absolutely spam the crap out of your 3 key (Which is a playstyle that won’t win any fights, mind you)? 50% != permanent. People need to stop crying about every defensive mechanic thieves get, unless they prefer GC thieves with protection, stability, aegis, and regen – by all means, I’d love to play a D/P thief built more like a warrior (for at least a little while until the OPness got old), because that’s where the QQ is pushing thief to.

The thief is a class, which should have skills to counter bunker or boonspammer, but thieves dont have it, and FS is actually to weak to counter these builds and 8 inis aren’t to expensive.

8 initiative is insanely expensive – I don’t understand how you could claim otherwise. I don’t quite follow what you mean with the first sentence, but old LS was a good soft counter to boon bunkers – you weren’t going to strip every single boon from a bunker with half a brain, nor should you have – it was a powerful tool that limited the usefulness of mindless boon spamming without completely shutting it down, which is actually a really good place for a counter – not OP, and not useless.

But what do you think about, to give FS 1 boon steal instead of LS and give FS an ability for +10% (?) dmg for every left boon on the enemy?

The basic idea (% more damage for each boon) could work and I like it, but % needs testing – warriors need to take a trait to get 3% more damage per boon (granted thats for all their attacks, instead of just 1 specific attack). The only issue I see with it is that Anet has nerfed thief burst and thief damage since day 1, I don’t see them increasing it significantly any time soon.

Mathias.9657:

evilapprentice.6379:

MaXi.3642:

stealth is one of the most annoying things in MMO RPGs, it should have been F class mechanic and not as it is, problem would be solved… i used to hate how stealth worked in WoW, now i would love to have it like that instead of this…

or just remove stealth from weapon skills which can be spammed and move it to utility, thiefs who want to go with stealth will and the ones who like another types of fight will be ok

Just because you (or anyone else) finds it annoying doesn’t mean it doesn’t have it’s place in a competitive environment. I dislike clones, but that doesn’t mean mesmers shouldn’t have them – in fact, it’s a fairly unique mechanic as far as MMO PvP is concerned – I can appreciate its place in making the game stand out, even though it can be frustrating to play against.

If you ask me stealth spam and clone spam have absolutely zero place in a competitive environment. Stealth should be an opener or getaway mechanic, nothing more. Clones are just bad bad bad design, in fact the whole idea of GW2 mesmer is bad. I mean really, confusing players with target drops and clone spam esportsyolo I guess. Reminds me of the Diablo 2 necromancer, just cast your minions and let the game play for you GG.

And that’s your opinion. You’re entitled to it, but we shouldn’t be making basic game design choices based on it – especially when you haven’t provided any data on the matter other than your personal feelings.

Gallrvaghn.4921:

Nope.

Without any explanation as to why you feel this way, it comes off like a tantrum. If you’d like to explain why you think a 4s revealed is justified, like how Dee Jay explained why he feels a 3s revealed is justified, that would be a different story.

Sanduskel.1850:

Meridian.8730:

Thief…can’t kill most bunkers at all. Our bunker busting skill LS got nerfed into worthlessness. Yay anet, you know how to destroy a class like a bunch of pros.

Bunkers can’t kill most thieves either. I do fine as a roamer, but I don’t see killing every opponent as my god give right either.

Your comparison doesn’t hold water, since that’s not the intention behind bunker design. What bunkers do is hold a point, and they excel at that.

Thieves however, were designed to kill things – Poor or nonexistent access to defensive boons (except vigor), no invuln skills, no psuedo-invuln skills, no blocks, low HP, dodgy/teleporty combat style with big burst… it is kind of strange when they can’t threaten a bunker. Seeing as LS was specifically changed to deal with boon bunkers, and was doing so admirably, it’s kind of strange for them to decide boon bunkers should have free range once again.

Black Teagan.9215:

My suggestion for S/D is:

Flanking Strike: Cost: 3 Ini

Larcenous Strike: Cost: 5 Ini ; Steal 3 boons [or Steal 2 boons with the full duration]

Your suggestion is silly. This would turn a fight against an S/D thief into “Dodge LS to win”, or from the thief’s perspective “Save your initiative for skills that aren’t horribly overcosted”

LS was working as intended as far as a soft counter (not a hard counter, mind you) to boon bunkers – it should just be reverted back to how it was, or just shaved a little bit rather than having it’s utility nerfed into the ground.

Another suggestion, Give FS 1 boon steal/strip, and LS 1 boon steal.

MaXi.3642:

stealth is one of the most annoying things in MMO RPGs, it should have been F class mechanic and not as it is, problem would be solved… i used to hate how stealth worked in WoW, now i would love to have it like that instead of this…

or just remove stealth from weapon skills which can be spammed and move it to utility, thiefs who want to go with stealth will and the ones who like another types of fight will be ok

Just because you (or anyone else) finds it annoying doesn’t mean it doesn’t have it’s place in a competitive environment. I dislike clones, but that doesn’t mean mesmers shouldn’t have them – in fact, it’s a fairly unique mechanic as far as MMO PvP is concerned – I can appreciate its place in making the game stand out, even though it can be frustrating to play against.

Cripple is not applied for the listed duration – seems closer to half the listed duration, but I haven’t done strict testing on the exact duration, I just know that my 6s cripple (20% condition duration) lasts less than 4 seconds on dummies and targets in PvP.

BobbyT.7192:

evilapprentice.6379:

Necrotize.2974:

No idea if it was the same person but several people complained about me playing thief, specifically mentioning shortbow as op and giving thief too much AoE today. I personally have never heard this before and honestly I rarely see a thief without a shortbow on swap. The only trend I saw was that they all tended to be minion classes(ranger, necro, and a mesmer who commented but didn’t really complain) and I guess I can kind of see how it could be annoying. I run a power build and a sigil of fire meaning if they have minions out trick shot almost always procs.

So is there something I’m missing or has the community just found something else to call OP now that LS can’t counter boon bunkers?

They’re going to find something, its just a question of how much of a stretch it is.

My money is on “Stolen skills are too strong!” and “Why are the skills thieves steal better then my version?”

There was a thread in the nerco forum (could have been this one, not sure) a few months ago complaining that thieves had a better fear -_-

And I’ve seen warriors and rangers complaining about thief’s stolen skill, which lead me to my prognostication.

IIRC though (and I might be wrong), those complaints were prior to the skull fear change that made the length of fear based on how close you are to a player when it activates.

Edit: That change did happen, right? Maybe I’m imagining things….

Silferas.3841:

Warriors need sustain nerf. I would not directly nerf the numbers themselves, seeing as warriors do need stronger healing to stay in the fight, I’d just change it so that you don’t get regen when you are not hitting people. Like gain regen (400 HP/s as healing signet passive) for 3 seconds after you hit an enemy, doesn’t stack, resets on each hit. That’d be fair imo.

I don’t see the problem with reducing the base HPS (300-ish? Just a guess, would need some testing) and increasing the Healing power contribution – warriors should have access to something like the current incarnation of HS…. when they make the same sacrifice every other class has to make when they get that kind of crazy healing, and take healing power in high amounts.

Necrotize.2974:

No idea if it was the same person but several people complained about me playing thief, specifically mentioning shortbow as op and giving thief too much AoE today. I personally have never heard this before and honestly I rarely see a thief without a shortbow on swap. The only trend I saw was that they all tended to be minion classes(ranger, necro, and a mesmer who commented but didn’t really complain) and I guess I can kind of see how it could be annoying. I run a power build and a sigil of fire meaning if they have minions out trick shot almost always procs.

So is there something I’m missing or has the community just found something else to call OP now that LS can’t counter boon bunkers?

They’re going to find something, its just a question of how much of a stretch it is.

My money is on “Stolen skills are too strong!” and “Why are the skills thieves steal better then my version?”

Volrath.1473:

ppl will never be happy, if they had changed it a different way, lowering the dmg, increacing the init cost or both ppl would cry and say “why not make it strip only one boon and leave the dmg and init cost as it was?!”

anyway, i think the change was good. from all available choices i think they did the best one.

as for pistol… i think that the auto-attack should have been the one buffed, not body shot nerfed…

I agree that people would have complained regardless of the change, but that’s mostly because the change was unwarranted.

“2 boons stolen is too much” – it was enough to keep up with boon bunkers. 1 does almost nothing.

“It does too much damage” and a as a bonus “The evade spam is too much” – it does similar DPS to autoattack, which inflicts weakness and cripple. 5 initiative for an evade and 2 boon steal seems fair for an attack that does the same damage as pressing 1, and doesn’t come with cripple and weakness.

The only thing I can see is that giving LS enough boon steal to properly deal with boon bunkers might have been too much for DPS specs that rely on might/fury/swiftness/etc – I’ve already suggested how they could have properly “Shaved” LS, like Anet claims to do, rather than just straight up nerf it back into the realm of sub-par utility (While keeping the upjumped cost to boot!)

The best part is very little of the QQ focused on the 2 boons stolen – it was mostly complaints about “Evade spam” and for some reason, Infiltrators strike.

So they reduced LS back to 1 boon, which was proven useless for the first 10 months of the game when FS only stripped one boon from bunkers. A-net has some funny QA.

Eurantien.4632:

Antitoxin Spray

Prepare for battle with a new universal healing skill! A dose of this cutting-edge Antitoxin Spray will cleanse yourself and nearby allies of poison, torment, confusion, and toxin. This skill is available to characters of all professions.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/october-29-2013/

Of course it isn’t, we’ve got 2.5 months minimum before the next pvp change.

Excalibur.9748:

at the very least it stopped the S/D thief QQ on the sPvP forums.

People are distracted with Warrior QQ – the boards will suddenly find another facet of thief game-shatteringly OP as soon as they’re not getting chain stunned into oblivion.

Lighter.5631:

evilapprentice.6379:

Lighter.5631:

thats the whole point of it…and what are you trying to say exactly.

There are counters to other forms of healing – activated heals can be mitgated by poison and interrupted, regen can be poisoned, stolen or stripped. Healing signet and Adrenal health are highly resilient to poison thanks to Cleansing Ire, and can’t be interrupted/stripped in any manner.

Burger tries to downplay the power of AH, but it’s nothing to scoff at – the second tier healing of AH is roughly 20% weaker (IIRC) than shadow Rejuvenation, a grand master trait that requires being in stealth (Not doing any damage, not contesting points) to access – that just happens every 3 seconds for a warrior. I’m not claiming it’s broken, but Burger is trying pretty hard to downplay how powerful it is for a 15 point minor trait.

That’s the whole point of it, don’t you get it? thats why they aren’t made of boon.
as of poison, poison is most likely the last thing to clean on your condi bar, and as a warrior, if you use your f1, you will probably get 2 condis off you every 8 seconds at max.
but what about the 8 seconds when f1 is on CD? not to mention rangers thief necro engi can apply constant poison and poison field.

and how is AH roughly 20% weaker then SR? AH heals 120 per sec at max and if you are actually using F1 skills, most of the time you will have 1 lvl of adre or 2 lvl but not for long because you are about to use f1 again. thats 41 per sec most of the time and 80 per sec.
and SR does 293 per sec.

Is SR per second? I haven’t run a stealth spec in months, i thought it was every 3s (but thinking about it, you’re probably right – my bad, I rescind that comment). Bold for emphasis

If a thief is using SHbow for choking gas to apply poison to a warrior, the thief doesn’t have the DPS to pressure a HS+AH warrior. If he’s using dagger, he has to be careful to not get pasted, because meleeing any flavor of warrior is risky business in the current meta.

If the point of HS+AH is to be nigh uncounterable, that’s poor design. It’s fine is poison specifically doesn’t counter HS, but it still requires some way in which it can be countered. It can’t be interrupted, it’s highly resistant to poison, and the HPS is Excellent, especially when supported by AH – you don’t get to have all 3, everything has to have a weakness.

We haven’t even talked about condition cleanses besides Cleansing Ire. A well timed cleanse and Berserkers stance can produce 8-10s of uncounterable full HPS regen.

Lighter.5631:

thats the whole point of it…and what are you trying to say exactly.

There are counters to other forms of healing – activated heals can be mitgated by poison and interrupted, regen can be poisoned, stolen or stripped. Healing signet and Adrenal health are highly resilient to poison thanks to Cleansing Ire, and can’t be interrupted/stripped in any manner.

Burr tries to downplay the power of AH, but it’s nothing to scoff at – the second tier healing of AH is roughly 20% weaker (IIRC) than shadow Rejuvenation, a grand master trait that requires being in stealth (Not doing any damage, not contesting points) to access – that just happens every 3 seconds for a warrior. I’m not claiming it’s broken, but Burr is trying pretty hard to downplay how powerful it is for a 15 point minor trait.

zone.1073:

Arheundel.6451:

Stop your non-sense..you compare regeneration to the warrior healing signet?…Are you mad?
I should have like 2000 pts in healing power to match the passive healing of the signet.

Healing signet = 400 HP for sec
Regeneration = 130 +0.125 * Healing Power.

Thieves can full condition wipe and sustain heal every single time they stealth, and with good use of smoke fields, thieves can stealth almost permanently.

Dropping 1 condition every 3 seconds is not a “Full condition wipe” – stealth is good at mitigating condition application, it isn’t nearly as effective at removing conditions when you get hit with 3-6 of them in 2 seconds. Lets note that stealthing “permanently” also means doing no damage and not contesting points.

Many classes have a sustain mechanic and it’s not a new concept at all. EU has been practicing this meta way longer than NA.

And no one’s sustain mechanic is nearly as strong while being as versatile as healing signet+Adrenal health+Cleansing ire is at the moment.

BurrTheKing.8571:

MaXi.3642:

srsly? you are obviously a warrior player who dont want it to be nerfed… its OP as hell, not only “almost like the old elementalist”, its exactly the same and maybe even worse, above average dmg, above average survivability (read almost unkillable 1v1), best mobility in game, best control in game, usually all in one build… if ele needed to be nerfed, this must be too

No, not exactly the same.
No, not normally all in one build.

Ele had almost no real counter, or at least nobody found one before they were nerfed. Warriors have a plethora of counters, it’s not that classes fault that few people play Mesmer even though thanks to Warrior condition builds are being kept in check.

I’ll say it once again the game is not balanced around 1v1. If you run Hambow builds your mobility is lower. if you take Mace/GS you give up the ability to apply damage while retreating, as I said before being able to run away isn’t all that great if doing so means your team loses the fight. Even though I was an early adopted of Mace/GS, it’s actually not very good against decent players. Being able to stun multiple people on a point with a Hammer is much more useful that stunning just one.

So no, you can’t have it all in one build.

Also, you fall into the category of people who don’t even try to make their writing look respectable and it makes it hard for me to take anything you say seriously.

The heart of the issue is Healing Signet + Adrenal health + Cleansing ire – it facilitates too much.

The argument “Just use poison” falls short thanks to Berserkers stance and cleansing ire – it’s pointless to try and put 30s of poison on a warrior who’s going to cleanse it in a couple seconds using skills that fall into their normal rotation (IE, there’s no special course of action to cleanse conditions, it just happens while the warrior uses their skills effectively)

Direct damage specs have an insane amount of sustain when you consider the amount of damage they can output, with lots of weaponset choices (compared to other classes). It’s not as though they’re unstoppable, they just do excellent damage for how tough they are to kill when compared to other classes ability to fight in a similar manner.

Condition damage specs have it even easier – since the only DPS stat they care about is condition damage, they can stack very high levels of toughness. High base HP, cleansing ire and berserkers stance ensure that a high toughness/low vit specs usual weakness (conditions) is fairly neutered.

M/S – Hammer specs can buy ungodly amounts of time to regen health with their CC and blocks, and upkeeping poison is practically impossible unless you’re running a condi spec with constant access to poison AND cover conditions.

Warrior’s don’t need to be nerfed into the ground, but someone needs to address how powerful, versatile and facilitating 20 points into the defense trait line has become. Once that’s been addressed and the meta has settled, we can look at healing signet and see if it is actually too powerful, or if the real culprit is 20 points in defense combined with healing sig.

Dual.8953:

Okay so I rarely complain about nerfs, but this one’s kind of hit me home. LS’s nerf really stuck out to me when I was with my GF in a dredge area. I used to be able to steal their Protection no problem, but now I may need to invest at least 20 into trickery to be as remotely as effective as before. I can’t get at their protection because the single stack of Might is always in the way, and when there are a group of dredge, they simply reapply might before I can get off two LS’s (I know they aren’t doing it conciously)

I wasn’t for LS being nerfed in this way, an increased initiative cost would have sufficed in not making people spam it. Now one of my favourite ways to contribute to my team has been slashed, and it was one of the few ways I made a noticable impact in major boss encounters.

Now I realize that reverting LS and increasing init cost may not be a viable oftens, so as an alternative, could we change how LS prioritizes boons? I’d prefer it to go:
Protection, Stability, Might, Regen, Swiftness, Vigor, Fury, Aegis.

To any dev that may see this, thank you for your consideration.

Bountiful theft is good for burst-stealing a few boons from a Boon bunker, but with LS now stealing 1 boon, the sustain is no longer there – boon bunkers are back to being able to generate boons much faster than you can strip them – even if you run bountiful with SoH, Nullification with high crit, Spam your LS’s and hit them 90% of the time. Even if you prioritized 1 boon for theft, the overall process is too slow to make much of an impact.

LS should work in the following way – on hit, steals 1 of the following boons if present – Protection, Vigor, Retaliation,Stability. In addition, steal (or strip) 1 boon at random. This way LS deals with boon bunkers without overpowering other builds that use swiftness/regen/might/fury/regen. That or Anet should just say they want Boon bunkers back to the power they were at before they introduced counters, because that’s what they’ve done.

Cripple is not applied for the listed duration – seems closer to half the listed duration, but I haven’t done strict testing on the exact duration, I just know that my 6s cripple (20% condition duration) lasts less than 4 seconds on dummies and targets in PvP.

Master of Timespace.2548:

No, ini regen is fine and people are used to it’s current regeneration rate. If things need balancing, you need to do it some other way.

So you run a spec with absolutely no initative regenerating traits? That would require you to have less than 15 points in CS, and no points in trickery (which is possible of course, just pointing it out).

People were used to HS working the way it did, and CnD, and Dancing dagger, and PW…didn’t stop them from changing it. Same for revealed timer – people were Extremely used to the 3s timer, but they still increased it to 4s because they thought it was necessary – the argument that people are used to the way things are doesn’t justify not changing something.

Additionally, init regen wouldn’t necessarily be faster – you can replace some of the minor traits with more interesting effects, resulting in specs that regen init at roughly the same pace which are just more interesting to play. You’ll note I specifically mentioned that traiting for heavy init regen in the current system would regen init at the same rate as in my supposed system with better base init regeneration – I’m looking to narrow the gap between traited and untraited and improve our traits.

Interceptor.2653:

What does burst have to do with initiative regen?

More damage per point of initiative spent, faster kills (which means less reaction time for your opponent to intercede with heals/dodges/blocks/etc which prolong the fight) requiring more initiative to be spent. The nerf to burst was also a nerf to damage dealt, which also results in more initiative spent to achieve the same goal.

This post is from a PvP standpoint.

Base init regen, without any traits, is in an awful place, and needs to be adjusted.

The initiative regeneration formula we currently have is from launch, when thief’s burst (and general damage) was much, much higher. Since launch, we’ve seen
- a reduction in HS’s thresholds
- a 15% damage reduction to Pistol whip and cluster bomb
- a change to Assassins Signet that reduced burst
- Mug can no longer crit
- a 33% damage reduction to Cloak and Dagger
- a 50% damage reduction to Dancing Dagger
- A reduction in haste’s attack speed boost.

And that’s just off the top of my head – I might have missed some. The point of this post isn’t to dispute whether or not those changes were justified – the point is, a thief’s TTK (time to kill) has been affected by these changes. Initiative regen, however, is where the dev’s thought it needed to be prior to all these changes.

Traited, Initiative regen can range from acceptable to amazing, but it’s boring and limiting – no other class has so many minor and major traits dedicated to using their abilities faster, and when they do opt to take one of those traits, there is an additional benefit.

My suggestion is twofold
A) Increase base initiative regen
B) Modify existing initiative based traits to be more interesting, and to balance out the increased base regen so that in the end thieves heavily traited for init regen do not gain initiative any faster than similarly traited specs do now.

It’d be interesting to see some of our traits that seem dedicated to making the class playable instead give our specs more flavor and utility, and open up the possibility of new specs (since we won’t be so heavily reliant on slotting init regen traits).

infantrydiv.1620:

Kolly.9872:

infantrydiv.1620:

This is a build I made today and started using in tournaments more successfully than any P/P build I’ve tried before.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-cRRV;1Rwk0-Z57PFd0;9;4T9T;037B4;018B;4INV4;2KJG4KJG45BI

Leeching venoms adds over 2k damage onto your unload skill as well as a 2k heal (from spider venom, less from the other two).

Basically you buff your teammates giving them longlasting might stacks and venom procs while dealing large amounts of damage from range with unload for single targets and clusterbomb for team fights. Try to stay out of the middle of the fight except to share your venoms.

how many tPvP did you win with this crap?
or should I say, did you even find a team willing to play with you with that crap build?
sorry mate, I seriously like when people try to theorycrafting something unusual, but let’s not post everything that comes to mind

Well, yesterday I believe I went something like 10-6 playing this build against people anywhere from 80%-top 100 in solo queue. I’m currently ranked at 86%, floating between 80%-800 depending on what class I’m playing.

It’s kind of funny how hostile the thief community is toward P/P. I posted this build because it’s the only thing I’ve ever tried with P/P that hasn’t gotten ground into a pulp, and because I’ve seen many people interested in trying to play P/P in medium level tournament play.

I agree that the overly hostile tone is completely unwarranted.

I also agree that I don’t see what P/P brings to the table here. Assuming the VS spec works (I haven’t played it, so I don’t know), what does P/P bring to the table that makes it so much better than any other weaponset? Being able to quickly proc your venoms with unload seems like a very minor bonus for all the negatives you get when running P/P. All the minor traits in SA are almost a complete waste, with your ability to go stealth once per 30 seconds when you heal, or when you get hit lower than 25% (hope you’re not mid-unload when that happens). I also can’t imagine any spec with 0 initiative regen boosting traits, much less one as Init hungry as P/P. Anet has nerfed thief burst over and over again, and haven’t bothered to adjust base init regen to reflect the fact that TTK is longer.

I haven’t tested the spec, but just from looking at it on paper it feels like you crammed P/P into it, which is the feeling I get 90% of the time someone tries to use P/P as a weaponset.

Siva Mira.3546:

I think Guardian and Warrior need Stealth too, just saying.

Why not? They’ve already given it to mesmer, ranger and engineer.

On a more serious note, I’m not one to advocate that every class have access to everything, but the lack of burning is a serious hindrance for thief condi specs. How many effective thief condi specs do you see in TPvP?

If you said 0, congratulations, you are correct sir. The problem isn’t necessarily only solvable via burning, but it is the easiest solution, and the one anet might kitten up the least.

NevirSayDie.6235:

evilapprentice.6379:

NevirSayDie.6235:

The “top three” method is a tried and true way to get a vague sense of long-term prioritization. It’s not like the devs don’t know what to do and need to ask for a clue, they just want to prioritize their next couple years of work into an order that’s most likely to make their players as happy as possible.

I’m not knocking the “top three” method, just the way in which they are gathering the data that makes the top 3. Rather than looking at 500 posts to judge the top 3, a quantified vote would be simpler to display and read.

Edit: Top “3” is just a number – consider it Top X – with a vote, we can see how important various topics are to the community, and understand a development schedule that tackles said topics in order.

Apologies, I misunderstood. Yeah, if they set it up as a vote where each person could vote X times, it would give them the information in a cleaner, more accurate format.

No problem, I know your intentions were the best.

But yes, the point is, if Anet gathered the top 10 pvp requests (best and most implementable in a short time frame) from their Collaborative development post, set up a vote, and let the community pick their top 3, the results would be beneficial to both us the players, and the developers.

The developers would have an easily referenced and quantified level of feedback to act on, and the players could see the vote count – even if their preferred issue wasn’t in the top 3 (top x), they could understand why Anet was choosing to tackle it (since they could see that the community as a whole valued it highly by the vote count)

NevirSayDie.6235:

The “top three” method is a tried and true way to get a vague sense of long-term prioritization. It’s not like the devs don’t know what to do and need to ask for a clue, they just want to prioritize their next couple years of work into an order that’s most likely to make their players as happy as possible.

I’m not knocking the “top three” method, just the way in which they are gathering the data that makes the top 3. Rather than looking at 500 posts to judge the top 3, a quantified vote would be simpler to display and read.

Edit: Top “3” is just a number – consider it Top X – with a vote, we can see how important various topics are to the community, and understand a development schedule that tackles said topics in order.

I’m excited to see you, the developers asking the community for opinions. Let me say now, however, that a list of 500 responses listing their top 3-5 concerns for PvP is not going to be a useful tool.

Instead, allow me to make a suggestion. Look at the topic as it stand now, and pick 10-15 good, implementable suggestions. Set up a vote with strict controls,so each player can only vote once. After a reasonable time period (1-3 weeks? you guys decide), publish the results of the vote, and get to work.

This will accomplish a great many things. It will allow you as the developers to gather useful data – a centralized vote seems much more useful than sifting through 20+ pages of posts for helpful feedback. As for the community, we’ll be able to see how the vote went, so we (hopefully) wont get so kitten when the winning suggestions are chosen for implementation, rather than the suggestions we championed ourselves. Most of all, it will promote trust in between the community and the developers due to the transparency.

Edit: As a side note, look into tapping already existing communities for suggestions. Reddit would be a great place to start – the community as it is does a great deal to weed out trolls and troublemakers on their own. While not perfect, asking for suggestions/help from that community might yield helpful suggestions without costing you anything in terms of server space/moderation.

Maugetarr.6823:

evilapprentice.6379:

Maugetarr.6823:

I am tired of it as well, but at this point, I’m hoping for nerfs that remove the least amount of our utility so we can be more than just damage. There have been several red posts to the thief forums in the past week after months of none and I would hope that they are indeed reading these. If something has to be shaved, I’m hoping for the one that is least detrimental to our utility as we’ll slide back into “why bring the thief if they can’t bring anything unique” (which was a stated problem around when they buffed FS before this recent nerf).

Again, I do agree with you, but I fear reducing FS->LS damage will make the set 1 note – I should have said this earlier rather than posting another response, but if you half FS->LS damage, S/D will become “Dodge Crippling strike to win” – can you imagine running S/D without LS damage? It would be a joke – you can’t even guarantee a CS with Inf Strike, since its part of the AA chain. Trading FS->LS’s damage for utility will just make us useless in a different fashion.

Well…let’s hope they change it back, but in all my time on the thief they’ve only reversed 1 change which was reveal….and that was only in wvw/pve. I guess we can’t really come to a conclusion on which way you would rather be nerfed….

Your fingers or your tongue. Which do you prefer?

A man’s gotta have fingers.

Well, I know from experience that the current single boon steal does nothing, so I’d opt for the damage reduction and stealing 2 boons. From fighting non-boon bunkers though, I feel that the damage reduction would limit our ability to actually drop targets. The devil you know, and all that.

It’s hard to make a decision regarding either nerf because they are both unjustified – 1 has been tested and proven, the other just conjecture, but conjecture from an experienced player.

Maugetarr.6823:

I am tired of it as well, but at this point, I’m hoping for nerfs that remove the least amount of our utility so we can be more than just damage. There have been several red posts to the thief forums in the past week after months of none and I would hope that they are indeed reading these. If something has to be shaved, I’m hoping for the one that is least detrimental to our utility as we’ll slide back into “why bring the thief if they can’t bring anything unique” (which was a stated problem around when they buffed FS before this recent nerf).

Again, I do agree with you, but I fear reducing FS→LS damage will make the set 1 note – I should have said this earlier rather than posting another response, but if you half FS→LS damage, S/D will become “Dodge Crippling strike to win” – can you imagine running S/D without LS damage? It would be a joke – you can’t even guarantee a CS with Inf Strike, since its part of the AA chain. Trading FS→LS’s damage for utility will just make us useless in a different fashion.

Maugetarr.6823:

My point is though that if the devs really felt like it was overwhelming/did too much, a damage nerf would have been the better route because now we have 2 skills that pretty much overlap on just damage. If it had been a damage nerf then we would have had:

AA: Damage
IS: Utility gap closing/creating
FS/LS: Utility evade/boon stealing
DD: (needs to be fixed)
C&D: Damage (depending on pvp/wvw) + Utility Stealth

Basically they could have turned S/D into the close combat version of Shortbow, which is the point I’m getting at. I really don’t think it needed to be changed, but if the devs absolutely had to change something, I think this would have been the better route to go because thieves would have to choose between damage and utility (as the devs thought it was all too much on the same ability). Again, I wish we’d had no buffs or nerfs this patch, just buffs to other classes and let the meta settle.

I understand your point, but I’m sick of making concessions. That’s all thief seems to do – accept nerf after nerf after nerf. If their justification really was that FS→LS was overwhelming or did too much, then they need to re-evaluate how they measure these things.

Maugetarr.6823:

That’s why I wish they had halved the damage instead of the utility. When they originally talked about it in one of the SotG they said F/S +LS had too much on it. Evasion, damage, boonstripping. Well now all it does is give us what we already have naturally: evasion and damage. Even if they reduce the cost of it back down to 4, the speed at which it functions would still be too slow. Anyway, I like your idea of taking a defensive boon and a random one so we could still get through bunkers without stripping people who use them for offense too quickly.

Halving the damage would have been a mistake too – FS->LS DPS is on par with AA DPS – AA inflicts cripple and weakness, and costs 0 initiative. Evasion and boon stripping seems fair for an ability that costs 5 initiative, and does damage on par with just standing near your target and pressing 1.

People just don’t like to try. Crippling strike and larcenous strike are the only attacks in PvP that S/D has that do any sort of decent damage, just dodging those will nearly half the damage the set can do to you. While I agree “Just dodge” is usually a poor argument for countering an ability, that’s because there are usually 4 or 5 skills you want to dodge, and you can’t possibly dodge them all – S/D has only 2 skills you need to watch out for, making your choice of what to avoid a very easy one.

They could normalize the damage of FS and LS so that the overall DPS is the same, but each strike does the same damage (to prevent people from pre-loading LS and using Inf strike/steal to guarantee a big hit), but reducing the overall damage doesn’t really make sense.

Maugetarr.6823:

I would rather have seen them nerf the damage than the utility. The DPS is on par with the autoattack. It would at least be nice if they reduced the cost of LS since they halved its utility. Even though we retained the damage, boon bunkers have effectively double the time to replace boons now. I thought they changed it to two boons in the first place because bunkers were over the top. We’ll see if we slide back into the meta of half a year ago.

Boon bunkers are back to where they were pre FS change – thieves no longer have the tools to strip their important boons because they can generate boons so quickly that you can’t possibly keep up. Bountiful theft can open up a ~5s window, but it’s not a sustainable method of removing boons from a bunker, and a smart bunker will save their best survival tools to close that small window Bountiful theft opened up. Sinking 20 points into trickery is also not an easy feat if you want your spec to have any sort of survivability (or if you’re aiming for survivability, if you want your spec to have the kind of damage that a bunker can’t just ignore)

Anet made the switch to 2 boons to counter boon bunkers. It was working fine, but I guess they decided since people have bigger problems now (Warriors, condi meta, etc), they could just reintroduce boon bunkers into the meta, and we wouldn’t notice.

The only real issue I could see is giving thieves access to the tools to counter boon bunkers effectively allows them to strip boons from other specs much too quickly – if that’s the case, they should have done what they claim to do and “Shaved” LS in a more inventive manner – have LS steal 1 boon, then in addition strip/steal protection/vigor/retal (maybe also regen?) – this way, DPS specs that rely on might, fury and swiftness aren’t getting eaten alive by LS, but boon bunkers cant just throw up tons of short duration boons to completely neuter LS’s ability to counter them.

The fact that they left it at 2 initiative makes me feel like they’re just lazy or inattentive – it’s back to the old FS functionality, with a steal rather than a strip – it shoudn’t be costing 5 total initiative.

Honestly, I wouldn’t mind them trying new things that didn’t work if the update schedule were more accelerated – if we could expect things to change every 2-3 weeks while they fine tuned balance, it wouldn’t be pleasant, but it would be bearable.

Knowing its going to be 1 month (absolute minimum, more likely 3 months) before this issue is addressed is disappointing.

PvP opinions only -

LS No longer serves its purpose – Just like Old FS. Specs that generate boons do so often, and quickly – LS used to keep them under control, now it’s almost useless for that purpose (This is a first impression, might change with more play). It also stayed at 2 init, for some unknown reason.

The PW change was unintended, but reveals a huge design flaw in the game – at some point during developement, the designers thought it was completely fine that PW’s stun ended before the damaging portion of the attack began. This makes no sense to me.

Venomous aura changes were a joke – they ignored the fact that venoms are currently pretty worthless. They’re poorly designed (Big stacks of easily cleansed conditions, with poor access to the damaging conditions, on a huge CD), and if you spec around them, you either sacrifice a potential venom slot for a stunbreaker (making the 5 traits you dedicated to venoms slightly less useful), or you take no stunbreakers and get pasted.

Body shot change was a step in the right direction, but not one I expected from 3 months of work. It’s fairly minor.

P/P was inexplicably ignored, remaining an extremely poorly designed trash set for over a year now. Body shot change does not address the sets myriad issues.

D/D was ignored – there’s still a condition attack smack dab in the middle of a direct damage setup, and the PvP nerfs to /D make it a hard sell over D/P, which has powerful, useful skills – an interrupt, a non-stealth based mitigation tool, and a superior gap closer.

RFI, withdraw and Meld with shadows fixes are nice…but just that – fixes. Over a year for skills and traits to work as intended.

Nerfs, both intended and unintended – just like thief always gets.

Incurafy.6329:

The LS nerf didn’t kill S/D, it’s just as viable before, especially if you use a Sigil of Nullification. D/P is literally exact same, so that’s still viable. The only spec really hit hard was S/P, but I’m theorycrafting an S/P immobilize venom build atm and I think it could still be viable even if they don’t buff Pistol Whip.

P/x and D/D are still as useless as ever.

In my experience so far, S/D no longer counters boon heavy builds, as it was designed to do – anyone boon reliant cant put them up much faster than you can strip them, even with a 60% chance to remove a boon on crit once every 10s.

It still functions, but the original intent of the skill seems to have been neutered – which would be fine if they offered another way to play thief, but instead they buffed venomous aura and left venom’s as is.

Even if you get S/P to work within the confines of an immobilize heavy spec, it still got nerfed into obscurity yesterday, and can be added to P/P and D/D in the “Why bother” category.

Kaon.7192:

Sanduskel.1850:

You can run, dodge and stealth before the skill is used to avoid it. Try it. You are making a broad claim with blinders on. I see pets malfunction all the the time. If this hadn’t been handled this way, sic em would never work. Maybe you need to comprehend how other classes work.

Run – 2000 range away from the Ranger you mean? Even with Thief mobility that is not a small feat and will put important utilities on cooldown and/or use up most of your initiative. All it will accomplish is put Sic Em on a 5 second cooldown.

Dodge – Read the title of the thread

Stealth – So rerolling a perma-Stealth Thief is the only real counter to a skill that is supposed to be a counter to Stealth?

Clearly this skill is ANet game design at it’s finest. /sarcasm

I wouldn’t waste my time anymore Kaon – when asked to provide an example of an undodgeable, uncleansable skill that locked an entire traitline, he offered confusion and stuns. There is literally no reaching him.

Sanduskel.1850:

Sure. Being hit with knockdown, confusion or dozens of other things have the same effect. Move on. The point is that you now need to use stealth more intelligently.

-Cannot be cleansed/broken
Both knockdowns and Confusion and the other dozens of skills I’m sure you’re thinking about can be countered by stunbreaks and condition cleanses.

Oh, they can also be dodged. And also, they don’t invalidate an entire trait line. So what you’ve offered meets 0/3 critera. Bravo.

You need to have the barest understanding of what I’m talking about to contribute. This is what I mean when I talk about unrelenting stupidity. You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about, but you find no shame in shouting it from the rooftops.

Sanduskel.1850:

It doesn’t invalidate a trait line. It requires its intelligent use.

Being hit with Sic Em means that any minor trait a thief has in SA is automatically worthless for the duration, because the thief is locked out of stealth. Any major trait worth taking is also automatically useless, because they are also stealth reliant.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Invalidate?s=t

Your “it requires intelligent use” statement is not only a poor argument, it’s also an incorrect one – it’s impossible to take advantage of any SA trait, either intelligently or stupidly, once you’ve been hit with Sic Em.

My initial request still stands – show me another skill that satisfies the criteria I laid out in an earlier post. I know you won’t (because there isn’t one), but that’s where this discussion stands – until you can show me another skill in a similar vein, your counter-argument carries no weight.

Sanduskel.1850:

The philosophy used here is consistent with every other balancing move, stealth lacked a certain counter. That is one that had less than 5% of actually breaking stealth. I almost never got hit while in stealth. That frequency increased last night. I welcome the challenge. Every other class has had to deal with highly certain counters to their key mechanics. So this precedent that bothers you so much has been here since release. Thieves aren’t special. You aren’t special. Move on.

Name me another skill with the following criteria
- Cannot be dodged
- Cannot be cleansed/broken
- Completely invalidates an entire traitline.

Maybe I’ve missed something, I’m not perfect. Introduce me to a skill that does that to any other class, and we’ll discuss it.

Sanduskel.1850:

This patch was fine. Lets get less hyperbolic around here, please.

Please elaborate how it was “fine”

The venomous aura change is pointless while venom’s remain so poorly designed.

The only thing P/P got was now S/P is almost as useless, due to an unintended side effect of stuns no longer rounding up to a full second. The Body shot change was nice for P/D, but nothing spectacular, and it still leaves P/P in a poorly designed state.

The RFI/Withdraw/Meld with shadows fixes were nice, but they were fixes – the skills now function as intended, over a year to fix those issues.

LS stealing 1 boon was a mindless change – we already knew removing 1 boon from a bunker didn’t work, because it didn’t work back when FS was a non-split skill. Maybe 2 was too much (that’s another discussion), but just reverting it back to 1 boon without finding a middle ground that keeps the boon stripping portion of the skill relevant without being OP after three months of no PvP updates is just lazy.

It was a round of intended and unintended nerfs, with 2 extremely minor buffs (Body shot, Lotus poison) and some bug fixes.

It’s not like i was expecting a round of buffs, but watching the Dev team sink so much time into a venomous aura change while completely ignoring the base design issues with venoms is infuriating. That’s time they could have spent fixing LS properly, or finally fixing P/P, or bringing D/D back to relevancy, or maybe they might have noticed that S/P’s Stun now fades before the damaging portion of the skill starts firing…

Excalibur.9748:

evilapprentice.6379:

Lithril Ashwalker.6230:

vrilek.4038:

They have nerfed every single viable thief pvp build this day… Thank You Anet! I can say one thing. I wish to see 1 major patch with no thieves notes, why? Because it would be the first real buff for thieves —-—>>> no nerfs.

really? -_- go elsewhere

on another note – they did kill the s/d build..one boon is not going to make a huge difference, it needed an spvp split so pve could still be viable. or reduce the kitten initiative needed for larcenous by 1 (not flanking)

I’m already finding bunkers who spam boons much faster than I can strip them, even when focusing on using LS and making sure as many as possible hit – needs more testing, but initial outlook is the boon strip portion of FS/LS is back to where it was with old FS… almost pointless.

ugh if true…im gonna have a field day with boon tank guardians.

It definitely needs more testing – just a first impression.

Dagraan.2854:

so do any of the thieves not do any attacking at all? because if i remember correctly when you spam 1 running behind someone and it finally hits you get 3 to 4 seconds of reveal as well.

why are you so bad that a 4 second reveal from a ranger will kill you. and it can’t even do anything while you’re stealthed.
if you’re so bad at the easiest class in the game then you need to roll a cleric guardian and have nothing but heal skills.

From this point on, anyone who makes it clear they haven’t read anything I’ve said up until this point is just wasting their breath – more so than usual, as hard as that is to believe from the displayed lack of reading comprehension.

Lithril Ashwalker.6230:

vrilek.4038:

They have nerfed every single viable thief pvp build this day… Thank You Anet! I can say one thing. I wish to see 1 major patch with no thieves notes, why? Because it would be the first real buff for thieves —-—>>> no nerfs.

really? -_- go elsewhere

on another note – they did kill the s/d build..one boon is not going to make a huge difference, it needed an spvp split so pve could still be viable. or reduce the kitten initiative needed for larcenous by 1 (not flanking)

I’m already finding bunkers who spam boons much faster than I can strip them, even when focusing on using LS and making sure as many as possible hit – needs more testing, but initial outlook is the boon strip portion of FS/LS is back to where it was with old FS… almost pointless.

rpfohr.7048:

Boohoo. So it’s a hard counter to a strategy that itself was a hard counter. As I stated earlier its not like its destroying your class mechanic initiative and steal.

Stealth is not a counter to anyone who knows what they’re doing. It doesn’t block access to your traits, therefore it is not a hard counter in the same way as denying stealth to an SA build. Stealth may hard counter you, but plenty of players have figured out how to deal with it.

Furthermore, Stealth is a thief mechanic – we have an entire traitline dedicated to “on stealth” effects, and each of our weapons get a special attack when in stealth – no other class gets anything close to comparable.

I get it, you don’t like thieves. Disagree all you want, but don’t lie or delude yourself, it makes you look foolish and does nothing for your argument.

Azure.8670:

UrMom.4205:

evilapprentice.6379:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Bazzoong.7145:

…
It will also prevent shadow refuge (or mass invisibility) from being used to save downed team mates, it will make downed 3 for thieves and the mesmer downed invisibility and it`s clone totally useless, the implications are far more severe than any of the previous posts indicate.

There is the actual value of this change. Stealth was the only sure stomp save in the game. It had no counter play. Really I don’t think it is that big a deal, because if you are a Ranger what are you giving up for “Sic em’”? Probably a spirit. While having a counter play for stealth is valuable the spirits are the crutch that make most ranger builds viable right now, and on the whole I think that the spirits actually carry more value.

The anti-stealth counter should have simply been “The thief is visible, even while in stealth, for 4s” – that would solve everyone’s issue without locking a thief out of their SA traits and stealth attacks.

^ +1, Sic em should only allow the ranger to see the thief but still allow the thief to be in stealth. It would allow the ranger to 1v1 a thief with more dynamics but it would also introduce some interesting team play and coordination for smaller skirmishes. Completely locking out a trait line is just bad implementation.

Its not completely locking out a traitline.

Its Exactly that – 4s reveal means no accessing anything in SA for 4s, because all of the minor traits and all the major traits worth running are stealth reliant – how you missed an obvious fact plain as day is beyond me.

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

ANET is in love with casters. Seriously, reading the patch notes was a joke. OP classes get more OP buffs, added range on runaways, more power and healing, etc etc but the things that give thief an edge get toned down… For the love of God someone ball up and stop listening to QQ’ers who whine that thief is OP. Thief is pretty much the only class that isn’t a skill-less faceroll now.

deepkumar.1230:

ok LS was op

No, the problem is it wasn’t.. Compare us with every other class.

I’ve never seen harder failing at class balance before in my life.

This is just a first impression so it requires more thorough testing, but the reduction to 1 boon steal (while being left at 2 initiative, inexplicably), seems more severe than it looks on paper. Bunkers are back to generating boons faster than you can strip them, even when you hit with 75% ore more of your LS’s. Just like it was pre LS, when the first strike of old FS stripped a boon. Since anet is so fond of “Shaving” rather than nerfing, they should have tried 1 steal 1 strip before reverting back to removing 1 boon from bunkers.

Or, if you really wanted to target boon bunkers without screwing over other classes with less boon access, have LS remove one of the following – Protection, Aegis, Regeneration, Vigor, and also steal 1 boon – that way, when you’re targeting non bunkers, you’re only stealing 1 boon.

Rezzet.3614:

you mean just how thiefs had a skill locking out 90% of other classes’s mechanics and trait points? you know like stealth? 90% of the time? trololol

I forgot that stealth completely turned off your brain. It’s impossible to attempt to predict where the thief might be headed on his weaponset, to use AoE’s or auto attacks to attempt to hit him while he’s in stealth.

It’s a wonder I’ve been managing to do it so consistently for nearly a year – I’m not even that good. It’s strange though, all my traits continue to work when a thief uses stealth…maybe I should bug report that? You know, seeing as it’s been completely shutting you and so many others down where anyone with the barest understanding of the games mechanics would have figured this out months ago.

Puru.4217:

1s daze was useful for ranged support (or even during battle to be honest).
It was also useful if you were more interest in the auto attack chain for the cripple with 1s of breathing room and/or to surprise them with a fast interrupt unlike the first strike of pw.
I also liked to use daze then pw instead of autos to change things a bit.

It was basically nerfed as a support tool and as a mind game tool, which is a massive nerf for my playstyle at least, but overall i agree most people will probably be far more annoyed by the pw change which is simply breaking the set at this point.

As ensoriki said, the collateral damage to head shot isn’t major – it was never intended to be more than an interrupt, even without sigil of para it gets it’s intended job done.

PW was being carried by SoP, and even then it was only mediocre. Without the extra .5s stun, it’s inability to be used effectively against anyone with a tiny bit of experience is finally out in the open. The spec went from UP to unplayable due to this, as Anet originally designed I guess.

Kwll.1468:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

You guys need to stop flaming every red post that comes on here just because you have a sandy kitten .

Justin probably doesn’t have a lot of resources at his disposal to fix the matchmaking, and most likely has a constant inflow of other issues that require immediate attention. Server side programming has a hell of a lot more to it than what you can see. Cut the guy some slack. He is good enough to come here and try to let you know what he is working on.

Direct your frustration where it belongs if you feel like you need to flame. Point at the management that hasn’t given them enough resources to address this in a timely fashion.

First of all, Justin is a big boy and I doubt his feeling gets too hurt reading these posts and even if he allows it to its his job. Second of all this has been a problem for over two months although you can argue it goes back to the inception of rated team matches (April) because they brought nothing knew for solo q they just kluged the team queue rating system and matchamking on to it. Nobody is asking for some kind of miracle over night. If the full fix is going to be that time consuming can’t they put in some kind of band aid that might help alleviate these problems a little until then? At the very least maybe have some kind of tier like everybody rank 15 and under has there own matches. How hard can it be to filter out rank 15 and under. This is a really big problem. They are doing themselves zero favors.

Last I checked, Justin’s tag was “Server Programmer” not, “Guy who makes all the decisions that hold this game back so lets kitten on him”.

Expressing disappointment is fine. Being a prick about it is not – it’s nobodies job to put up with anyone elses childish flaming, especially not a “server programmer” who took time out of his day to post here (like the community has asked time and time again) when it would have been infinitely easier to just avoid the cesspool that these forums will be for the next few days.

DarthDragonVanquisher.6912:

I am saddened to write this forum post.. I had been hoping that the day would not come when i would have to say goodbye to 5 high end pvp friends at once.. They put up with enough, always had their hopes up, stayed positive until the end.. But they couldn’t deal with being Arenanets Second hand last priority citizens anymore.. 5 really great pvpers are leaving this game, they believe the patch was not enough.

A step in the right direction, sure but after months and months of waiting for drastic change to fix the Tpvp side of this game it was not nearly enough.. On the first day of the new patch they have already decided they will be taking a break after the upcoming vVv tourney.. I can only speculate how many more will join them in the upcoming months of waiting and hoping that arenanet will finally deem us worthy to care..

Will we ever make as much money for them as Dragonslaying Pve Hero’s? Probably not.. Will we ever waste as much money as those creepy Roleplayers with their fancy townclothes and weird outlook on life and this game? Probably not.. What we can provide, is a massive influx of new level header PvPers with the sole goal of making this game a competitive Esport, this game has amazing fluid and mobile reactive combat.. It has the potential to be amazing, to rival LoL and Dota, if Anet invests more thanjust 2 people into the Balance team.. Once they put effort into balancing pvp people will be attracted to this game.. If they care enough to give us the 2vs2’s, & 3vs3 deathmatches we have been screaming for.. Give us these new game modes we have been anxiously awaiting..

They have been promising us a revamped rewards system for the last 6 months, but yet again they fail to deliver.. Give us amazing rewards to rival the Roleplaying and Pve Hero’s, allow us to step into Pve As a level 2 and look cooler than the Roleplayers.. If they invest into monthly Arenanet sponsored tournaments and spend cash into us the PvP community, they will be rewarded by massive sales.. This Game has the potential to be great.. & it saddens me that patch after patch more of my friends leave, because they cannot handle waiting around another 4 months hoping arenanet will actually do something to contribute and Fix Structured pvp in this game.. it is saddens me to see Anet squander away and slowly kill the pvp community. WvW is a joke and it’s Anets Love child, sure they get Seasons and what do we get? Nothing..

Evilapprentice used Hammer and Chisel! It was super-effective!