Guild Wars 2

Concerning point 2 –
People always seem to forget things when it comes to down state.

Thief, Mesmer and Elementalist downed avoidance mechanics are entirely personal – they’re guaranteed (or nigh guaranteed in the case of thief 2), but they cannot, in any way, help a downed teammate avoid a stomp or interrupt a res (besides for DPSing a resser, which any class can do and isn’t anything special to these classes).

Warrior, engineer and Necromancer skills can interrupt a stomp on themselves, a stomp on a teammate, or a res on an enemy at range. These are tactically valuable options when working with a coordinated team, which is how GW2 was designed.

Ranger and Guardian skills can potentially perform the same as the above class of interrupts, but guardians interrupt is PBAOE, and I’m honestly not aware of the range on Rangers #2 downed skill (it might be just as useful as War/Necro/Engi, and AoE to boot)

Dee Jay.2460:

A Thief on the other hand who builds his build around Flanking Strike + Lancerous Strike will try to spam that ability as much as possible because he can and it’s his most effective move. The same applies to Sneak Attack which is basically all a P/D Thief spams. D/P Thieves are in the same boat with their Black Powder + Heartseeker combo.

This…isn’t even remotely accurate. Any thief spec that is designed around “Skill X will always be my best choice” is a kittenty, easily countered spec. I specifically dropped Jumper’s double S/D because people learned all it could do was FS->LS, and being predictable and inflexible is a huge disadvantage.

Spamming FS->LS is a great way to look cute and twirl around while I contribute absolutely nothing to my team. The most effective move I can do is almost always a complicated interaction between what my opponents build is, what my opponent is doing, what my opponents health is at, what my health is at, how much initiative I have, if my opponent has any boons, if there’s a cap point I’m trying to flip or hold down… and so on and so on and so on.

I’ll often switch to Shbow to poison a target right around when they should be using their heal, or against someone I notice trying to burst me down (for weakness, to neuter their Damage per skill used) even if Sword could potentially get the job done faster, because SHbow is the weapon that will get the job done with more consistency. Or if there’s a nice combo field I can take advantage of with blast finishers to support my team (mmm, Healing seed).

I’ll often use my AA to conserve initiative because its more important to have the init to FS around an Eviscerate/HS, or LS a couple particularly powerful boons, or poison a target with SHbow, or access a combo field with cluster bomb, etc etc etc.

If all a thief is doing in D/P is BP->HS, wait for revealed to drop, repeat, then that thief is awful. D/P is one of our best built sets, each and every skill is fairly well designed, and can be used in multiple ways – If you’re just dropping BS for the stealth Every time, you’re wasting init – you could instead be sticking to your target with HS or Shadowshot (each has situational advantages), dropping BP when they try to stand their ground (assuming they’re melee), then HSing out of it after tagging them with some AA’s you were able to land due to the blinds from BP. It’s also real handy to have 4 init sitting around to headshot a heal/important skill or Shadowshot a big gap when someone is trying to escape (when better thieves are chasing me, they don’t just default to stealth because “oooh, BS is the best!”, they time their Shadow shots so I can’t actually shake them)

If a thief is just thoughtlessly spamming HS when their target is under 50%, they’re an awful thief. Shadow shot can potentially deliver damage faster (depending on range), and comes with a blind, which makes it an amazing ability to pop when you see an Earthshaker or churning earth or Larcenous strike or something similar coming your way – it’s not always about what does the most damage, it’s about what leaves you in the best position to win the fight.

I could list more, but I think I’ve made my point.

P/D unfortunately spams sneak attack because that’s all it can do – adding torment to shadow-stab gave the set some flexibility so 5->1 isn’t ALWAYS the best thing to do, but it’s still far too often the best way to go. This is a failure of P/D design, not of thief overall.

Yih.4950:

What do you lose in 4 seconds? i.e. how many condition drops, how many might stacks, etc.

Why quantify it? You lose access to the entirety of your points spent in SA (at least currently – ATM, the best traits for SA are entirely stealth based. This might change in the future), one of your primary defense mechanics, and potential offensive mechanics, all to counter invisibility. Why not just counter the invisibility aspect?

Regardless of pet damage, who has the ability, how the ability is applied, etc etc etc…

My point is still that its silly for any class to get an ability that has the potential to completely invalidate up to 30 points in a trait line – My suggestion clearly and effectively addresses the biggest complaint with stealth – you can’t see the thief. Further locking them out of their trait choices, or out of their access to stealth based attacks seems silly – As long as its obvious to both the thief and other players that the thief is in stealth, but visible due to Sic Em, everyone should be happy – it counters the biggest reason people hate stealth without being overly punitive to a thief running a build that relies on SA or stealth attacks.

hrkljus.1243:

I know ANet wants the thief to be the best dodging class thematically, but it can’t have both dodges, damage, and boon steal in one spec.

Then we should be fine then – S/D doesn’t have strong damage (I assume by ‘damage’ you meant ‘strong damage’, because you can’t design a weaponset that does no damage at all) . With the exceptions of crippling strike and larcenous strike, every skill in S/D hits for low DPS in comparison to a thief’s other possible weaponsets using the same DPS stat values.

Crippling Strike comes at the end of a slow AA chain, and is highly telegraphed – Dodging/interrupting/retaliating (as in hitting the thief, not using the boon retaliate) while he’s attempting to land Crippling Strike will either severely neuter his damage or make him pay for landing CS by hitting him hard while he can’t dodge.

Larcenous strike can only follow a Flanking strike, is again highly telegraphed, and can be countered in much the same way as Crippling strike (except that it can’t be blocked.)

Sanduskel.1850:

I prefer the ranger pet idea from anet. Thanks though.

Care to explain why?

Knote.2904:

Condition builds that use condition traits are effectively nullified by warriors condition immunity for 8 seconds.

People keep making this comparison – it’s silly and not very well thought out.
The process is “warrior used berserker stance, he is immune to conditions for x seconds.”, NOT “warrior used berserker stance, you have lost access to your condition abilities for x seconds” – its a very noticeable difference.

Kicast.1459:

Well currently, thieves are recognized as a real value in tPvP and are considered in a good spot: High burst, high dps, high survivability thanks to spammy evades and stealth, high mobility and even good support with boon stripping.
.

You’re mixing and matching the strengths from 2 different specs and presenting them as if they were contained all in 1 spec.

S/D has no burst, solid sustained DPS (if you’re running Zerkers) and high survivability through evades. S/D has short-range high mobility and boon stripping.
D/P has high burst, low sustained, and mediocre surviability through stealth (If you can’t guess where I thief in TPvP might be headed when in stealth, I don’t know what to tell you)

………………………?

MarkPhilips.5169:

How to balance thief S/D

1) nerf #3 chain
2) improve dagger oh
3) nerf the insane amount of dodge/evade

Read – Thieves should just stand still and die, nobody likes having to try, pay attention, or time their skills – if my fire and forget abilities can’t beat it, it’s broken.

Advent.6193:

evilapprentice.6379:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Ranger
Sick ‘Em will now apply ‘Revealed” to enemies they target. We want to introduce some counter play to Stealth (players have asked for that for a while), so we thought a pet “catching your scent” might be a cool way to insinuate some anti-stealth into the game.

Instead of skills that apply revealed, how about skills that nullify the invisibility aspect of stealth for the same duration?

This way, thieves heavy into SA still have access to all their stealth based traits and abilities(Might on stealth, health regen, condition dropping, stealth attacks, etc), but players can still see them, and thieves still follow all the rules of stealth (can’t cap a point, landing an attack triggers revealed, etc).

This allows for an effective counter for stealth without completely nullifying 30 points in SA. Countering a class mechanic is (arguably) fine, countering 30 trait points is not.

Considering the base idea of the Pet “sniffing you out,” if that’s a doable sub-concept for the “Sic ’Em” overhaul, I could see that being sensible. It’s Mittens what sussed you out, not as much me.

As much as I’d like things to “make sense”, I think it’s much more important abilities be mechanically sound – while I don’t think a stealth counter is necessary, I’m not going to say its broken or OP – the problem is, stealth is tied so heavily into thieves it can be broken against certain specs (IE, 30 points in SA is 30 points gone at the click of a skill). This part is silly – no other skill in the game says “Lawl, you got tagged, 30 trait points are useless until this effect wears off” with absolutely no counter once you’ve been hit with it. In addition, stealth skills can be a very large part of a builds strategy, and locking those out seems a bit much – just making the thief visible while in stealth should satisfy everyone who’s ever said stealth was too much.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Ranger
Sick ‘Em will now apply ‘Revealed” to enemies they target. We want to introduce some counter play to Stealth (players have asked for that for a while), so we thought a pet “catching your scent” might be a cool way to insinuate some anti-stealth into the game.

Instead of skills that apply revealed, how about skills that nullify the invisibility aspect of stealth for the same duration?

This way, thieves heavy into SA still have access to all their stealth based traits and abilities(Might on stealth, health regen, condition dropping, stealth attacks, etc), but players can still see them, and thieves still follow all the rules of stealth (can’t cap a point, landing an attack triggers revealed, etc).

This allows for an effective counter for stealth without completely nullifying 30 points in SA. Countering a class mechanic is (arguably) fine, countering 30 trait points is not.

Azraelle.1683:

s/d only works 1v1 or group vs group. In situations like 1vs2 its absolutely inferior to stealth builds.

Jumpers double S/D only works in those situations – Arg’s S/D – Shbow works fine in 1v2’s.

Incurafy.6329:

Also, the “hard counters to stealth” is one utility on a Ranger that is rarely used. It’s not a good thing, but there’s no need for the doom and gloom, stick with it and try again.

It used to be there were no hard counters to stealth. There were plenty of soft counters, like, you know, knowing what you were doing, and those are fine.

Then It was just a trap in WvW.

Now it’s a WvW trap and 1 ranger skill.

In a few months It’ll probably be a handful of skills.

Countering an entire class mechanic, access to a thiefs “best” attacks, AND potentially 30 trait points entirely is just silly, especially considering stealth isn’t a problem in SPvP/TPvP. Anti-stealth abilities should just make the thief still visible while in stealth for a period of time, not cause revealed – thieves still have access to their traits/skills and follow all the rules of stealth (not capping points, revealed if they land an attack, etc), and everyone can still see them – viola, everyone is happy.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

This way, thieves heavy into SA still have access to all their stealth based traits and abilities(Might on stealth, health regen, condition dropping, stealth attacks, etc), but players can still see them.

There was an occasional graphic glitch/bug that it doesn’t turn me invisible when even under stealth that really bugs me, thus this will really bug me.

Why not make us transparent instead? That way, as a Thief, I can also tell if my stealth mode is active.

But to be honest, I hated stealth from the beginning. Even more so because there are many skills that relies on using it.

The actual mechanic of how the thief remains visible is up for debate – it honestly doesn’t matter much, as long as it’s clear to both the thief and other players that they are in stealth (but suffering from the “Still visible” debuff). Making the thief transparent is certainly better IMO, but probably harder to implement – seeing as this Sic Em change is coming in a month, I was offering a simpler solution that would hopefully be easy to implement – perhaps just a “flare” icon over the thief’s head when afflicted by the debuff and in stealth.

I am also not the biggest fan of stealth, but as you said, so many key skills (and traits) rely on using it, so giving classes an ability that completely negates stealth is silly. Giving them an ability that counters just the invisibility portion of stealth, however, works.

Duration stacking conditions can only stack 5 times, not intensity stacking conditions.

I’ve fought a bunch of bunker warriors recently, and the only thing they seem to lack is the ability to force you off point. The fight boils down to who held the point when the fight started – if I did, the warrior is wasting their time because they can’t do enough damage to scare me offpoint. If they did, I’m wasting my time.

Seems to me this would play like D/P, with all the same weaknesses and less of the defensive strengths, but that’s just my opinion.

All of the thieves Initiative based traits should be reworked (with the possible exception of kleptomania). They’re currently far too necessary for any sort of effective build.

Base thief Init regen should be bumped, init regen traits (including preparedness) should be reduced/modified to be more active so that the end result is a smaller gap between traited and untraited init regen, but not faster init regen overall.

Example – Fleet of foot and Quick recovery should be combined into this – Remove 1 condition and restore 1 init on dodge, 5s ICD.

I thought a post in the official “Suggestions” forum might be a better idea, but something is telling me it wasn’t.

magic fly.2041:

evilapprentice.6379:

Condition spec’s wouldn’t like it if any class got a “-100% outgoing condition duration” skill, burst specs wouldn’t like it if any class got a “0% outgoing crit chance” skill, but it’s completely fine to potentially invalidate 30 points worth of traits for thief, in addition to any thief’s access to Stealth attacks regardless of spec?

Warriors already have a -100% condition duration kind of skill. Along with crazy uptime on stability. It becomes a hard counter to too many skills.

Conditions had their time, but now warriors have some I-win skills against conditions and cc.

I’m just afraid that stealth will be balanced in the same unthoughtful manner, making it super effective against all players except those who take the anti-stealth skills, and instant-lose against those who take the anti-stealth skills. Just like what conditions and cc have slowly, but surely, turned out to be.

-100% condition duration for conditions applied to the warrior. Not, “I tagged you with skill X, conditions you apply now have -100% duration for Y seconds” -a very, very big difference.

Auesis.7301:

Evil, don’t bite. He’s a known troll.

Np, I’ll leave it at that. At least players who are less in the know now can come, look at the math, and understand.

Burnfall.9573:

I dare anyone to call the OP a liar or “don’t know what he’s talking about”!

Any honest thieves with physical evidence, “please stand up”

Another evidence of thief’s madness.

This is way too ridiculous and unbearing.

Not sure if serious or trolling, so, dare excepted.

Please check the following link –
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQJAoYEFnTEbP8ZO5pXByq9gmtEmA-ToAg0CqI4SxljLDXSuscNKYCB

There we have listed the absolute max combined power a thief can possibly have in SPvP – 25 stacks of bloodlust, 25 stacks of might, Assassins sig, 30 points in both DA and CS, equipped with zerkers, scholar runes, and a sigil of force as well as dagger training. (You’ll have to manually add 25 stacks of bloodlust/Might, and set the target to the light armor since apparently those do not get saved)

I’m going to do some sloppy math below, but if you’d like the figure out the exact max strike for yourself, here are some tips – Don’t forget to add up all the conditional damage % boosters (Exposed weakness, first strike,s executioner, and scholars – Force and dagger training are already factored in, so don’t add those) for a total of 50%. Note that the target I’ve chosen is at 2000 armor (IE, a Glass Cannon).

Quick and dirty – 4441×.5+4441 = 6661.5 – total non crit damage when your target has a condition, is under 50%, you’re over 6 init, and you have over 90% health.

6661.5 × 1.03 + 6661.5 = ~13523 – A critical strike.

Go ahead and add 25 stacks of vulnerability in there, since we’re running this test with every single power buff on our supposed thief AND taking advantage of every single conditional damage % booster (IE, a situation so unlikely it might as well be impossible). You’ll find you still don’t do anywhere near the damage that screenshot listed. Also make sure to remember that we’re talking about a target with only 2,000 armor, which is below the absolute minimum armor you’d find on a warrior who’s wearing all his armor.

You know what? Lets add Frenzy AND 25 stacks of vulnerability!
13523 × .5 + 13523 = ~20285 – So in an absolute kittenstorm of perfect setup for the thief (which has a chance of happening approaching 0), your screenshot is still overblown more than 70 – 115%

Its possible I did the math slightly incorrect up there (I’m no expert on GW2’s system), but I’m willing to bet I didn’t miscalculate 20k damage into thin air.

TL;DR – Numbers bullkitten, proof above.

Cross-post to a suggestion I made in the thief forums.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Modified-Anti-Stealth-Suggestion/first#post2844211

Posting here because I feel it deserves some Dev attention, as it will satisfy both thieves and non-thieves. Appreciate any constructive response.

TL;DR of linked post – Have Sic Em (and future abilities that target stealth) apply a debuff which causes thieves in stealth to remain visible rather than lock out stealth entirely with Revealed – this allows players to continue to attack thieves “in stealth” (the thief is still consdered in stealth for the purposes of stealth attacks,traits, point capping, etc… just entirely visible to all players), while not potentially screwing thieves out of 30 points in SA.

Puru.4217:

Overlaps with dancing dagger for p/d, in better though since it actually can hit due to the projectile having a reasonable travel speed.

I don’t see it helping p/p that much either.

Eh, I disagree. Immob is tactically superior to cripple in a few key ways.
- completely prevent a player from entering a cap point, allowing you to decap/complete cap
- Prevents dodging/moving, which can potentially let a teammate complete a Hundred blades/Pistol whip/Eviscerate, etc on your target.
- Still applies vuln, which will increase direct damage.

Although I do agree that it doesn’t do much to fix P/P’s overall issues.

Tactically useful, but still doesn’t address the fact that P/P is a disjointed set – the AA and stealth attack are still condition based, the dual skill is Power based, and the OH skills are pure utility. The set still needs a more clear goal in mind.

D/D’s dual skill and P/P’s dual skill should be “swapped” (in spirit), as neither feels like they belong in their respective sets.

Doggie.3184:

I always thought auto attacks and aoes were a stealth counter.

Again, not the point. While I agree with you, this can be discussed elsewhere. I’d rather focus on my suggestion (which may seem a bit egocentric, but I assure you it’s not), because I feel that it’s an infinitely better compromise than attacks that apply revealed. I feel its pointless to explain why stealth doesn’t need a targeted counter, the Dev’s have already made a decision concerning “anti-stealth” abilities.

Most importantly, we can assume it’s not an outlandish suggestion which would require a ton of work to implement – I’m sure turning off the “is invisible” flag while in stealth if the thief has a particular debuff on them should be fairly easy, seeing as up until recently thieves had a bug where they would be visible to themselves even while in stealth after using certain abilities.

Zacchary.6183:

Yeah I could care less for stealth. I just want the benefits from it. As for devs hearing about it that’ll be a statistical impossibility.

I don’t even play a Stealth build – I’ve been S/D since March. I just think it’s silly to target a classes traitline so explicitly.

As for Dev posts, if this gains enough traction (and I’m hoping it will), I’ll cross-post to SPvP forums (since this proposed change is a problem primarily for SPvP/TPvP) and cross my fingers.

Zacchary.6183:

Yes.

Glad to hear it!

I’m making the assumption most thieves will like this suggestion – some will say stealth doesn’t need specifically targeted counters at all (and I agree here), but that’s not the point here. The dev’s have already stated they’re likely going to give Rangers an anti-stealth move, and this just means there will be more to come (which I called when they introduced anti stealth traps in WvW)

Instead of revealed (which kittens over SA completely), I’d like to see a “Stealth does not grant invisibility” effect attached to Sic Em (and whatever other skills they decide need it in the long run). This should satisfy both parties – thieves won’t be able to go invisible, and SA thieves won’t be completely screwed out of all their traits.

Again, assuming thieves like this suggestion over Revealed(and I am making that assumption), how do we bring it to the Dev’s attention and potentially get a response before the Sic em change goes live?

Seeing as the Dev’s feel there’s a need for Stealth countering skills, I have a suggestion that I think will make everyone happy (except thieves – they’ll just be marginally less unhappy).

Instead of skills that apply revealed, how about skills that nullify the invisibility aspect of stealth for the same duration?

This way, thieves heavy into SA still have access to all their stealth based traits and abilities(Might on stealth, health regen, condition dropping, stealth attacks, etc), but players can still see them. This allows for an effective counter for stealth without completely nullifying 30 points in SA.

How do people feel about this?

Seeing as the Dev’s feel there’s a need for Stealth countering skills, I have a suggestion that I think will make everyone happy (except thieves – they’ll just be marginally less unhappy).

Instead of skills that apply revealed, how about skills that nullify the invisibility aspect of stealth for the same duration?

This way, thieves heavy into SA still have access to all their stealth based traits and abilities(Might on stealth, health regen, condition dropping, stealth attacks, etc), but players can still see them. This allows for an effective counter for stealth without completely nullifying 30 points in SA. Countering a class mechanic is (arguably) fine, countering 30 trait points is not.

How do people feel about this?

Amaterasu.6280:

Mesmers pretty much play like a thief now in terms of stealth…now can you tell me how that’s fair?

Not entirely true – Mesmer’s can leave clones/phantasms in play via their weaponskills and class mechanics to continue doing damage while they remain in stealth, whereas thieves in stealth are generally doing nothing but repositioning/biding their time (unless they’re running Ambush or Thieves guild). Their stealth skills do not require hitting a target like CnD does, or 3/4’s their entire “CD pool” (init) like BP->HS does.

Additionally, they’re able to gain aegis, and protection in stealth (or regen, which will trigger protection via a minor trait), while thieves have no in class access to aegis or protection at all.

Zeke Azul Falcon.5176:

infantrydiv.1620:

Zeke Azul Falcon.5176:

infantrydiv.1620:

Zeke Azul Falcon.5176:

infantrydiv.1620:

D/P is so much better than D/D. Death Blossom is a total waste on your bar compared to Shadow strike which is a free blind+ gap closer which can be used to Backstab someone running away very easily. Not to mention Pistol 4 can be used to interrupt heals and enemy rezs. Blind field also allows you to keep up with heavy melee classes in close combat.

D/P blows D/D completely out of the water in every aspect if you are running a power based build. Don’t let D/D fanboys convince you it’s anywhere near as good as D/P.

looks like someone got rolled hard by a D/D thief.

it all depends on how you use your thief, the skill per se wether is is DP or DD, which play style you are comfortable at.

Lol. It’s extremely easy to beat a D/D thief over and over again on a D/P due to the fact that they usually miss their CnD because of the blinds from D/P #3,5 and the fact that D/P an extra gap closer that is going to hit anywhere from 3-4K on another glass thief. You don’t see good thieves playing D/D. You see noobs hoping the set will work for them because they like the look of double daggers. Also, even if they do land a CnD you can just stand in Black Powder and they will usually miss their backstab over and over.

D/P= better mobility, utility, dps, and has more stealth on demand. If you can actually come up with an argument instead of just shouting that I must have been ‘rolled hard’, I’d like to hear it.

i agree with you having a lot of D/P has a lot of utility and survivability but it doesn’t mean that set is superior, like i said it all comes down to the skill of the player using it.

No. Two equally skilled players, one playing D/D, one playing D/P… D/P will win 90% of the time. And the 10% loss will only come from very lucky CnDs. I dont think you understand: two of D/Ds skills are near useless in a power build and all 5 of D/Ps are very useful. It’s like trying to say a build which voluntarily doesn’t take two utilities can be better than the same build with 3 utilities.

There is a reason no good thieves run D/D. It’s a broken weapon set. Same with P/P. You can like it, you can play with it, just don’t presume to think it’s anywhere near as good as D/P. Both P/P and D/D are incredibly weak weapon sets. Quite possibly nearly the weakest in the game.

you really think a skilled DD player will just use CnD without timing it, yeah 2 utilities are quite useless on DD but it doesn’kittens broken.

i wont discuss with a close minded guy, like i said you need to roam more.

It’s really hard not to see how D/P should be owning D/D in this particular situation- it’s called Black Powder, and it shuts down D/D hard. Unless there’s an extreme skill or Gear (WvW only) difference, D/P has all the advantages in this fight. Utilities might come into play, but assuming neither side has made absolutely silly Utility choices, There’s nothing D/D does better than D/P in this situation.

Taobella.6597:

D/D is stronger but require support to play right.

D/P is weaker but require no support to play right.

that simply do to trait roots. overall D/P is stronger simply because it require them to be foolish to lose with it. well D/D can lose simply because you cant stay in cloak.

In SPvP, there’s no power difference between D/P and D/D, due to the 33% less damage on CnD – in fact, D/P hits harder on targets under 50% with your typical “burst” rotation (BV->CnD->steal->BS compared to BP->BV->HS->Steal->BS). The only real difference in SPvP is the cost to enter stealth using weaponskills – 6 (traited 4) for D/D, and 9 (traited 7) for D/P. D/D requires a target that you must hit (hard against skilled players, easy on petting zoo), and D/P can be completely target-less (with the added bonus of being able to stack extreme lengths of stealth if you are able /skilled enough to land multiple HS’s through your BP).

SoulSin.5682:

Lokki.1092:

I’ve always thought stealth in this game was very strange.

I’m a huge assassin type class fan and played one in every MMO I’ve ever played. At first I thought that the idea for stealth in this game was pretty cool. You cannot stay in stealth forever, but you cannot be knocked out of stealth, and you can get back into stealth easily. Very different from other MMOs where generally you can be in stealth as long as you want. But getting back into stealth is rough, you have a movement speed base slower than opponents, and any damage taken or action pulls you out of stealth. A Balance that makes fighting stealth still a pain but possible.

But that isn’t how it turned out to work in GW2… Right now thieves cannot be knocked out of stealth, can use abilities in stealth, can regain stealth easily and at a moments notice, can be in stealth forever and have access to the best combat mobility while in stealth. GW2 stealth on thieves is hands down the most powerful stealth mechanic most players have encountered in an MMO.

I still have no Idea how to deal with it. and having a thief I know there is no way to deal with it. People spamming skills way over there to find me when I’m way over here. When a thief attacks me and runs away I just go about my business. perhaps leave the area because I’m just going to get trolled to death and I know it.

Does stealth need to be fixed? Well if you want any meaningful WvW/PvP buffs to thieves then yes.

Except that permanent stealth requires a specific build and can be countered by any class with the least amount of preparation.

Guess you didn’t played thief enough.

Oh and hell, players are already getting used to stealth.
It isn’t uncommon to find players attacking you on stealth or rolling C&D on sigh.

For the Rangers. Its only one damm Pet skill with somewhat high cooldown. I wouldn’t be worried about it. Guess its just “our time” to L2P agains’t something.

That’s all.

I’d be fine with counters to stealth (I wouldn’t think they’re necessary, because stealth is quite easy to outplay, but it wouldn’t be unfair), if we didn’t have an entire trait line dedicated to “in stealth” effects. Countering a mechanic is fine, countering an entire trait line isn’t. I’m not saying that Sic Em is going to make thief unplayable, but it’s just following the extremely poor precedent set by the WvW anti-stealth trap – it can completely nullify up to 30 trait points for x amount of time, with no active counter once you’ve been hit by it. No other skill in the game has that kind of raw power.

Conditions can be cleansed, stuns can be broken, big damage skills can be evaded or mitigated with protection/weakness/blind/block/invuln, etc etc etc – once you’re hit with revealed outside the normal parameters (landing an attack while stealthed), there’s no counter. It will completely nullify every minor trait, and most likely every major trait (because all of the “must have” SA traits are based around stealth) in SA for X amount of time, and that’s just silly.

Bunkers wouldn’t like it if any class got a “heals have no effect for X seconds” skill, Condition spec’s wouldn’t like it if any class got a “-100% outgoing condition duration” skill, burst specs wouldn’t like it if any class got a “0% outgoing crit chance” skill, but it’s completely fine to potentially invalidate 30 points worth of traits for thief, in addition to any thief’s access to Stealth attacks regardless of spec?

Redscope.6215:

evilapprentice.6379:

Advent.6193:

1. TBH, hitting an opponent’s Block should de-stealth you. If only because you have physically contacted their body. Who wouldn’t notice being struck?

When you explain to me how the shield you’re holding in your offhand “blocks” a dagger being drilled between your shoulder blades, we’ll talk about block de-stealthing. Until then, lets leave it as it is.

That’s about the stupidest comment ever. How are you invisible right in front of me? Oh yeah, its FAKE.

Get a grip man…

Its like you’re saying playing an FPS makes you a good shot IRL. Sorry, no.

I’m using the exact same logic the original poster is – he feels that block should de-stealth you because logically, your character can “feel” an attack bouncing off their shield. My argument follows the same rules. It’s silly, but the point was to point out the logical inconsistency.

Professor Sensei.2941:

Simplicity.7208:

I’d say turn last refuge into “Use black powder at 25% health.”

But we’ve been complaining about last refuge for a year now, and ANet has yet to do anything to it, so it’s likely we’ll just have to get used to randomly getting revealed for no reason every so often.

Actually they lowered the cool down on it. I hate to use the whole cliche LTP phrasing but I’ve just learned to watch my HP bar. Would be amazed at how often that saves me.

That’s not a very well thought out tactic, is it?

What If I’m going for the kill and at 30% health? Should I not try to down my target, in case I take some damage midcast and LR gifts me with 4s of revealed for no reason? What if a stealthed player jumps me? What if a Long range character takes some shots from outside my immediate vision? What if one of the many, many common AoE skills gets dropped on me?

There’s literally a dozen reasons why this doesn’t work – you shouldn’t have to back off and wait for a supposedly useful trait to trigger just to ensure it doesn’t kitten you. It’s a kittenty trait, and needs to be replaced/modified.

Name another class that has to watch their HP and potentially modify the way they play so that their “last ditch defense” trait doesn’t trigger in a negative manner.

They each have their positives and negatives, but I’m of the opinion that you’ll find D/P more generally useful (assuming your investing heavily in SA)
D/P’s dual skill is infinitely better than D/D’s in a direct damage setup. Black powder and headshot are pretty amazing skills, and while BP→HS is a more expensive way to enter stealth, it’s also target independent – the only way to prevent it is to somehow interrupt you before your HS completes.

Protection on thrill of the crime isn’t very likely – even if it was, it wouldn’t be the same duration (base 10s on an ability that can be traited down to 21s is kind of crazy).

I agree the single stack of might is a little underwhelming however. Regen is the only other boon that really fits though – Prot, stability and retal for 10s would be too strong, and aegis isn’t really worth it or fitting.

Dagraan.2854:

evilapprentice.6379:

Advent.6193:

1. TBH, hitting an opponent’s Block should de-stealth you. If only because you have physically contacted their body. Who wouldn’t notice being struck?

When you explain to me how the shield you’re holding in your offhand “blocks” a dagger being drilled between your shoulder blades, we’ll talk about block de-stealthing. Until then, lets leave it as it is.

spam backstab like they always do

Try again without the hyperbole.

Fun fact – thieves who don’t have a dagger equipped MH are incapable of even using backstab, much less spamming it.

Eodwen.2613:

Though i generally avoid wvw i believe perma- stealth is enhanced by the terrain and the long distances in wvw and its also the food and the gear stat contribution that allows kills to be performed so quickly. I really dont think this change wil even have an impact in wvw especially since its single target and the added benefit is situational. Those who didnt use it before patch wont be using it long after the patch. And i read on the ranger forums that alot of peep think the skill is still not worth picking.

However this change might end up being a hard counter in tpvp. Fighting necro ranger warrior 70% of the time nowdays and its already fustrating enough. Im against this being added in tpvp as well.

I called this when they added stealth traps to WvW, and lo and behold, I was right – it was only a matter of time until they started adding more things that specifically target stealth. 1 skill on 1 class doesn’t seem like much, but stealth isn’t all that great as it is – be prepared for more and more abilities that specifically target stealth down the line.

I can’t wait until they gives thieves an ability that completely invalidate an entire trait line on another class. Maybe we’ll get an ability that stops guardians from healing, or applies -100% outgoing condition duration on a target.

Advent.6193:

1. TBH, hitting an opponent’s Block should de-stealth you. If only because you have physically contacted their body. Who wouldn’t notice being struck?

When you explain to me how the shield you’re holding in your offhand “blocks” a dagger being drilled between your shoulder blades, we’ll talk about block de-stealthing. Until then, lets leave it as it is.

Perhaps if LS is reduced to 1 boon steal, we can see it reduced back to 1 init.

Stop with this.

Honestly.

The game was built and balanced around down state. It’s not changing.

TheZeus.8617:

Get use to it hotjoin heroes will be what they are… rank means jack and kitten.

You’re missing the point.

Let’s pretend this was gold – people would be furious (and rightly so), that people were basically cheating to get free gold.

Now glory at the moment is pretty useless – but hopefully, Anet has some plan to do something that makes glory worth spending…kind of like gold. Then everyone will suddenly care about these people cheating, and rightfully so.

Zacchary.6183:

Next Thief updates:

No nerfs is surprising turn of events, considering we’re thieves.

Stun breakers now break blowouts and launch as well

Took them kittening long enough. I always wondered why some classes got plain old stuns, and some got stun +.

GrandmaFunk.3052:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sigh. I’m talking about an overhaul of the system…

They’re not going to overhaul the combat system so there’s no use in theorycrafting changes that are only possible within that scope.

Overhaul was a poor choice of words.

All they’d have to do is look at, change, and test numerical changes. Granted, the scope of said changes is large, it’s still just changes numbers, and setting the “Can crit” flag = true (presumably).

Then they’d have to look at “on crit” traits, and judge whether or not condition crits trigger them (or just make a blanket decision).

It’s a large change, for a time in the future yes, but its not like changing the games basic engine or rules – you’re just changing the numbers you apply to them.

Fade.7658:

If the notes are to be believed, this will also affect thieves:

- All duration stacking boons(Aegis, Fury, protection, Regeneration, Retaliation, Swiftness, and Vigor) and conditions(Blind, Burning, Chilled, Cripple, immobilze(now stacks duration), and Poison) now stack to a maximum of 5 times.

How would this work, as durations aren’t static across all skills? If someone hits my target with 5 2s poisons, all of my poisons are “immune” until the condition drops off naturally in 10s(Or is cleansed)? How would this interact with Spider venom, and say leeching venoms?

It’s also worth using as an S/D thief for LS.