Guild Wars 2

Nautika.5376:

We want unbalanced game play fixed.. You can perma stealth while killing someone 100-0 that is NOT supposed to happen.

It really is not fair when a Thief can 100-0 someone and they can’t even see them to target them, it is like those stupid 100-0 stunlocks in the game that shall not be mentioned.

On what planet is a thief perma-stealthed and killing you? There’s 1 thing you could possibly be describing, and its laughable
->CnD, wait until stealth is nearly over, CnD rght as the thief appears for re-stealth
If this is killing you, its 100% a L2P issue. This would take literally forever, would likely be outpaced by just using your heal skill and waiting for the CD, and can be countered by moving in a straight line, maybe throw in a dodge roll to be absolutely sure.

Unless of course you’re talking about the culling/rendering issue, which is a bug, and is in no way controlled by the thief or intended. Bug != unbalanced gameplay.

Edit: Sorry, this was addressed. I’m just sick of reading blatant lies and misinformation.

I just came out of a string of hot joins where it worked as it always has every time.
Then I went and did it another 10 times on dummies.
It 100% works, just fine.

With the current meta surrounding condition cleanses (there’s alot), and the underperformance of Thief venom in general, I think most of us will agree that venoms need something to be more viable.

The issue here is, any boost to condition length or number of applications wouldn’t address the issue – the line between meh and OP for effects like chill and immobilize is razor thin, and I don’t feel there’s a way down that path to fix the underlying issue.

So, simply put, just give venom’s a passive and activated effect. The passive effect would simply be a % chance on hit to apply the venoms normal activated effect. Activated effects would stay the same, and like signets, once activated the passive effect would not trigger until the venom is back up. There might be a need for some playtesting (low % chance for chill or immobilize, since these are powerful abilties, or perhaps the passive effect for immobilize can be crippled, a varying internal CD for more powerful venoms, etc etc…), but I think this would be -leagues- better than what we’re offered now. This would also tie in with making Residual venoms an actual grand master level trait, rather than the buggy crap it is now – Residual venoms could simply boost the % chance on passive poison application.

Thoughts?

- Ranged attacks incorrectly reporting “obstructed” and “out of range” extremely frequently – I’m describing other players nearly in melee range across open ground, and 2 Dancing daggers in a row obstructed by thin air. This scenario will happen multiple times in a game.

- A ton of venom bugs in general.
->Venoms sometimes do not fire the correct number of times/at all with channeled attacks (Sneak attack, unload).
->The last application of a venom via the Residual venom’s trait has no effect – you will leech life (if you’re using leeching venoms) as if the venom was applied, but the effect does not happen (happens randomly, especially with channeled attacks)
-> Basilisk venom does not interact well with residual venoms, making it a crapshoot whether or not the second effect triggers.
->Condition durations for Ice Drakes and Devourers venom not correct when using residual venoms – could be due to some sort of unpublished max condition duration stacking, an issue with the venoms not getting the correct full amount of condition duration, or a bug tied into the residual venoms bug above

- Roll for initiative constantly gets “Stuck” when breaking immob/cripple/chilled, and you will travel a reduced distance (or not at all) – it seems like the effect sequence is out of order – it should clear stuns, then immob/cripple/chill, then evade backwards. The movement impairing effects appear to be cleansed mid evade-roll.

- the “Sneak attack” (Pistol MH) stealth opener randomly “locks” – I stealth, and even though my target is in range and LOS, sneak attack wont fire when I press 1. this usually clears up in .5 – 2 seconds.

- Stability from Dagger storm is ignored by certain abilities – I’ve seen myself rooted, Knocked down, and launched with the stability boon still on me.

Killyox.3950:

Alex.5890:

Knock backs are something essential in SPVP , payed or free tournaments, but the amount of knock backs u get, sometimes is just too much and no amount of stability will save u. With just a few changes too the guardian class (one with the most knock-backs) the “problem” can be solved, and i don’t really see the change i’m suggesting has a nerf but more has a fix.

Suggestion:

First is the skills “line of warding” (Staff 5 ability) and “Ring of warding” (Hammer 5 ability) shouldn’t do a knock-back but simply shouldn’t let u pass, like going into a wall. The tool tip of those skill say’s foes cannot cross, and doesn’t say foes get knockdown. So probably something too look at. And do the same to similar abilities on other professions (i don’t think other professions have this)

Second is the utility “Sanctuary” that creates a bubble that “Foes cannot enter” says on tooltip but it just knock´s u back, i would change this skill to do the knock back on people that were inside the bubble, and just don’t let them enter.

Third is the utility “hammer of wisdom” everything is fine except the auto attack knock back, its just simply put, stupid, or put guardian spirit weapons possible too kill like all other pets

That’s about it, tell me what u think and hf

long story short: NO.

You are not supposed to be saved from KBs. Just dodge/block/blind/stability/teleback/strafe them.

Basically comes down to L2P issue

Short story even shorter: YES.

While the suggestions of the post you quoted aren’t necessarily the best options, there is absolutely no reason KB/KD/Pull/Launch should be more powerful than stun. Losing control of your character with no possible counter for any amount of time is stupid in any game, much less one claiming to be an esport (look what they did to Basilisk venom). Furthermore, My entire utility bar (sans stunbreakers) shouldn’t go on an interrupt timer, its just silly. The punishment for missing a dodge shouldn’t be that you’re a free target with no possible counter.

DaliIndica.9041:

Wouldnt this change end up making the problem we have now much more extreme?

You would have super bunkers who become kitten near impossible to kill?

And of course the counter, glass cannons could plunge in for some more power stats (crit power or whatever the class requires to be a nuke machine) and end up murdering anyone who wasnt an extreme bunker.

Just seems it would push the problems of having two extremes even harder.

Burst is pretty much perfectly set up at the moment – I guess you could trade the meager vit you get from berserkers for more precision (i mentioned in an earlier post that it would be important to not let players exceed the stat caps already set by the jewels setup we have now, so no more power), but seeing as that would leave you at absolute base HP, it wouldn’t be worth it for most classes/setups.

A bunker -should- be able to take toughness-vit-healing power – the way this game registers caps is unfortunately whats holding it back. It would be fine for a bunker to sit on a point and be literally unkillable (while also doing completely ignorable damage, seeing as they have no power/crit/condition damage) if only the game wasn’t designed to allow 1 player to stop 5 from capping a point. In addition, the insane mitigation/immunity/constant healing abilities most bunkers (read – guardian and ele) get in compensation for their extremely low base HP pools could be toned down in a game where players were allowed to go full tank (tough-vit-healing power), rather than some amalgamation of it due to limiting stat choices.

MaXi.3642:

its intended to have limited choices, even some stats combinations are not obtainable for a reason

I used to think this made great sense, but at this point, I’m starting to disagree. If we’re not talking about increasing the overall stat pool or stat caps(and It doesn’t appear that we are), any points traded would have to come from somewhere else. I don’t see the problem.

Silent Killer Ruven.1986:

evilapprentice.6379:

I did not participate in beta much – were there more options for rounding out your character? Because at the moment, the celestial amulet is garbage, and I hate not being able to run a balanced spec.

In the beta we had access to everything but the back slot item, but too many people complained it took too much work(or something) and it was condensed.

That’s just… ludicrous. Who wants less options in a free system? I could understand if we had to pay for the things, like Rift or WoW, but that’s not the case. I’d LOVE to be able to fine tune my stats alot more.

The current system absolutely encourages burst and bunker builds, because it’s always a loss to try to balance your character out with our current options.

I did not participate in beta much – were there more options for rounding out your character? Because at the moment, the celestial amulet is garbage, and I hate not being able to run a balanced spec.

NevirSayDie.6235:

evilapprentice.6379:

KB, KD, Pull, and Launch are all currently more powerful than stun, and need to be brought in line with stun.

I generally disagree when people say there’s too much cc in an RPG (even though I main a profession with no stability in this game). But this is really true. I stopped taking a stunbreaker because it seems to be one of the least-used and least-dangerous forms of cc. Even immobilize seems more dangerous to me than a stun (~double the duration of stun, difficult to remove if there are other conditions on you, etc).

Immobilize is in a weird place, because in some cases its devastating, and in others its a minor annoyance. There’s also appears no easy way to change it so its more balanced – perhaps changing immobilize into a minor snare (30% speed reduction) and disable dodging for the duration?

As for KB/KD/Pull/Launch, I’d honestly just prefer to see them affected by stunbreakers the same way stuns are – losing control of my character for any period of time with absolutely no way to counter it is just silly. They also shouldn’t put an interrupted timer on all your other skills (who thought that was a good idea?)

The worst is the chain bouncing a good team will pull on you – once you’re on the ground, expect to be KB/KD/Launch/Pulled 2-3 more times because hey, there’s nothing you can do about it.

There’s only 2 ways nerfing our burst wont ruin the class entirely
1) Condition damage gets revamped as a whole, and additionally thief gets slightly more access to conditions (some way to burn/confuse, access to poison on P/P, P/D)
2)We gain access to survivability boons/abilities. If we lose our burst but aren’t given access to at least protection, and probably some form of access to stability, aegis, or an immunity/block utility, we’ll be pointless.

Thieves go burst because when a Melee turns into an AoE kittentorm, our only option is to shadowstep out, and switch to Shbow. I’m not claiming Shbow is ineffective, but nobody switches to it in order to burst a target down. Its there so we can actually affect fights bigger than 1 on 1 or 2 on 2 without getting destroyed by AoE attacks.

KB, KD, Pull, and Launch are all currently more powerful than stun, and need to be brought in line with stun.

“Then the melee turned into an AOE fest, but I used stealth so I was totally fine.”

“You see me kill that guy just using CnD, then waiting for stealth to expire so I wouldnt get the revealed debuff? It was really quick and easy”

“I’m going to max out my toughness so I can effectively melee without being destroyed by AoE”

Dacromir.6207:

(you can heal 2k+ whenever you go invi).

Nope. You can heal up to 1.2k in stealth, and that’s assuming you stay the full 4s. During this time, your enemy has 4s in which they can heal up as well (or at least allow the CD to tick down on their heal). After all, other classes can heal up while attacking you. In order for a thief with this spec to heal up, they have to sit there and not do damage.

Only way to pass 2k healing in one stealth (except for refuge) is to have 400+ healing power on your gear, in addition to the 300 from traits. In that case, I don’t really think that a 2k heal over 4s is that OP, because you sacrifice tons of stats in other areas to get that healing.

You can only heal 1.2k from Shadow Rejuvenation. Shadow Protector also gives you a 5s regen whenever you stealth (But only if you don’t already have the regen boon granted by the shadow protector trait, for full clarity).
If I recall (doing this from memory), Shadow Rejuv heals for around 320 a tick with just the 300 healing power from Shadow arts, and the regen ticks are around 170, so it is around 2k. It’s still fair, however.

Source: I’ve been playing 30 Shadow arts with these specific traits for about a month straight now.

I do pray all the QQers (not accusing anyone in this thread) are prepared to get what they’ve been clamoring for since launch.

When the dev’s tune down thief burst, they’re going to balance it out with something – most likely a survivability boost which isn’t centered around stealth. Thieves are (hopefully) going to be able to choose an effective spec outside BS Glass cannon burst or a conditions spec.

I’m only thoerycrafting here, but I’m going to echo some of the sentinment i’ve seen here and on the thief boards – get ready for everyone to QQ about S/D Dazelock thieves in about 2 weeks (assuming the patch is on schedule)

There was a fix a few patches back that was intended to fix this (you used to be able to bypass gates at either base by targeting the underside of the bridge over said gate), so I would say this is clearly an exploit.

tOss.9024:

evilapprentice.6379:

I agree. I’m not trying to bash Anet – Balancing a complex game is very hard. I only care because I enjoy the game, and feel it has potential. That being said, I still want them to at least acknowledge the issue, and let us know steps are being taken/things are being looked into (which is what I’m hoping the patch later this week will address)

They’ve already told us they’re looking ay burst and bunkers.

I specifically mentioned the patch notes earlier (and in the post you’ve quoted) because I want to see it in the patch notes. I do appreciate that the devs come onto the boards to comment, but they tend to be very non-commital (understandably, but still). A “we’re looking into this” in a boards comment isn’t the same to me as patch notes mentioning “we’re looking into/re-working some burst damage and bunker potential”.

Some sort of timeline would also be nice. This isn’t a “waah, i’m going to quit!” statement, but if they told me they hope to have everything fixed by some fixed date, I’d find something else to occupy my time and come back at said date – I don’t pay monthly, and I don’t have to worry about people beating me in a gear race, so that’s not problem. I’m just beginning to feel like there’s no end in sight. I understand why they don’t give us timelines (because they change, and internet people are the most unforgiving), but that doesn’t make it any easier.

I agree. I’m not trying to bash Anet – Balancing a complex game is very hard. I only care because I enjoy the game, and feel it has potential. That being said, I still want them to at least acknowledge the issue, and let us know steps are being taken/things are being looked into (which is what I’m hoping the patch later this week will address)

I’m all for well thought out changes to the game. The issue here isn’t small, or subtle however – across all the range of specs the designers had in mind for the years they worked on this game, it’s all boiled down to bunker or burst.
It also puts a huge favor on class selection – for bunker, you take a Guardian or Ele nowadays. Engi and to some extent necro are still an option I guess, but they’re not the best, so why field them?

For burst, you take a Thief or Ele – they have the best burst potential while also having the ability to run away if things look like they’re going sour. Mesmer and warrior work also, and you’ll actually see them in games.

Bump, because it needs it.

Here’s how you build a paid tournament team
Take X bunkers.
Take 5 – X burst specs.

There you go, your team is built. I probably don’t have the experience in paid tourneys that some of you posting here will respond with, but in all 6 games I’ve played in, this is the exact setup. Every player who isn’t bunker is designed to dump as much damage as possible, and bail if that didn’t work.

Anet, this is extremely boring – I refuse to go 30/30/0/0/10 BS thief and hope my opponent doesn’t have a stun break or extremely quick reflexes – its binary, and boring as kitten. I like to run a well thought out spec, where both my opponent and I have to react to each others moves in an attempt to win – neither of us should be running a preset burst rotation, then either stomping or running away, and relying on a Guardian/Ele/Engi to sit on a point and just stay alive. It’s the antithesis of fun. Someone please tell me this is what the Nov 15th patch will be addressing?

Somehow I forgot to use my stability utility – because its always up, and every class has access to stability on demand. Also, of the classes that have access to KB, they’ve only got it on a single ability.

Edit: Oh, I forgot – stability also isn’t a boon usually coveted for stomps, due to the level of KB/KD/Stun/Daze flying around your typical battleground.

They’re clearly more powerful than stun, and there is no ability that reliably “breaks” them. In a game where multiple classes have the burst potential to kill/seriously wound a player in less than 2 seconds, a KB that locks me out of all my non-stun break utilities for 1-3 seconds could mean the difference between continuing a fight, and a walk back from the spawn.

It would be a slightly different issue (though still an issue) if every class had access to some form of reliable KB/KD/Push/Launch/Pull, but that’s not the case. Classes with these abilities are generally the stars of TPvP – its much easier to focus a KD or KB target than it is a Stunned target, because they have less options for mitigation/escape.

So, why don’t we just put all of the “Loss of control” CC’s on a level playing field?

Its unfortunate, but you need to be able to quickly and easily identify who’s on what side visually – that’s why one team is entirely red, the other entirely blue…

Well, I’m glad to see its not class specific.

So Devs, can we get any sort of acknowledgement of this? I only care enough to post because I enjoy this game immensely – I understand there are alot of things to get done, but “ranged combat not working correctly 100% of the time” is a rather large issue – I don’t want to start losing tourney tickets because I can’t rely on my ranged weapons to work correctly.

This is a question, not an accusation – until recently, I didn’t run a ranged focus build. The occasional mysterious obstructed would pop up (dancing dagger missing a target 300 in front of me with absolutely nothing but bare ground between us), but I didn’t consider it a major problem worth posting about.

Now that I’m running Shbow main, its bad enough to affect gameplay. 1-4 times a game, a shot will be obstructed by absolutely nothing. Not 10 minutes ago, I had a cluster bomb on the middle of the Docks in RotC register as “obstructed”… for absolutely no reason. There was a necro standing there, but he did not use a single ability (there weren’t even any marks up). Its a big deal when disabling shot is obstructed for no reason – if i can’t reliably slow a player down, I cant stop melee from closing or injured players from escaping.

I’m under the impression this isn’t a class bug, but a ranged weapons in general bug. Has this been an issue for a while, or has it intensified due to a recent patch? Why are we dealing with this in the first place? I understand nothing is perfect, and am willing to ignore the plethora of class based bugs at the moment, but if an extremely basic combat mechanic (ranged attacks) aren’t functioning properly, we have an issue.

Noctred.6732:

As has already been mentioned multiple times, you can break out of all kb’s and launches – you just need to wait until your toon is on the ground.

It’s obviously not immediate, but you’ll still break it well before the effect would normally end on its own.

So, like I said, there’s a period where you have no control of your character, and a stunbreak doesn’t do anything. Which was the point of my post. And maybe this only occurs with Inf sig and shadowstep, but I have had multiple occasions where the ability fires (I’ve successfully teleported), but I still do not have immediate control of my character.

instantcoffee.1785:

I disagree, make tab target ignore clones. Frankly the only people mesmer tricks work on is new players, why should they be a new player bully?
Then you have to take into account they are balanced the the ‘tricks’ in mind that no longer work on experienced players.
Honestly their downed 2 is a joke if you know how it works. Real mesmer always pops out after the clone and has a thing over its head. Now that Ele got their downed fix they probably have the worst downed state in the game.

Their down state 2 is a guaranteed “Dont get stomped” button, just like Ele now and Mostly thief (there are some ways around it, as opposed to Mes or Ele atm). There is no way to prevent them from successfully avoiding a stomp. It is in no way, shape, or form the worst in the game.

Any guardian bubble that knocks you back – Infiltrators signet and shadowstep will work, but you are still KD’d and unable to do anything until the effect would normally end. Updraft (which is a launch effect, but still ends up with you knocked down) has the same effect. Perhaps KD itself isn’t the culprit, and I’m talking about KB and Launch (generally, I see myself still “knocked down” and unable to do anything after using the stunbreak).

Regardless of that, my point is there shouldn’t be CC that removes player control 100% that isn’t broken by a stunbreak. It leads to those abilities being used the most, because they are clearly the most powerful (which is why Basilisk venom was changed).

It can be argued that immobilize outshines stun, but that’s more on a class by class basis – any stun break that moves you (Lightning flash, Shadowstep, etc) can render a melee classes imob almost useless. Some classes also have abilities that also break Immob. Being able to react still counts for alot of classes (any that can go immune, or AoE Blind/KB/etc against melee)

Regardless of the source of the KD, its still a bit weird to me – getting bounced around or chain KD’d inside an AoE effect, or while another player hammers on you, and having no response to it is kind of silly.

Asmodean.5820:

Gabi.5264:

Seriously, 19k in 7 hits and you complain about that?
You are seriously complaining about a skill that does 2715 damage per hit.

Please tell me this is not true.

I know it must be surprising for a thief but…for some professions this is a high number especially because when you mash button x it doesn’t respond anymore because gasp it is on a coodlown!!!

And Gasp you have 2 entire weapon sets (or 4 attunements, or as many kits as you want to bring) of CD’s to use! Hitting DD 4 times is the equivalent of using every single CD on both weapon sets!

This is honestly the saddest thief complaint I’ve seen. The backstab stuff I can understand, though I disagree with. Then the condition spec crying started, and I just laughed. This, however, is the worst I’ve seen – complaining about an easily dodged ability from a visible glass cannon spec’d thief. DD is hilariously easy to dodge due to travel time (just ask anyone who’s ever run away from a thief with enough endurance to dodge) – you sat there and ate DD after DD from an obvious glass cannon (while being fairly squishy yourself), and rather than examine what happened, how it could be prevented (extremely easily, as I’ve pointed out), and adjusting your playstyle, people come to the boards to QQ, and similar people who cry for nerfs before learning how to play hear the clarion call and join in.

So, when you’re stunned, a stunbreak works 100% of the time – use it, and you’re unstunned.

When you’re knocked down however, this is not the case – Some stunbreaks don’t work at all, others work in a reduced/less effective manner (some KD’s are broken by stunbreaks, others aren’t, which compounds the problem). The playerbase is fully aware, of course, because any class that has an effective knockdown takes it.

So, why exactly is that? Why is there a type of CC that can’t be effectively countered, in a game based around skill? Is it a bug, or intended?

ghryshlyd r32 Condition/survivability thief

Would prefer to run some free tourneys first to sure up comp/strat, though that may be time consuming.

Honestly, hot joins are designed for jumping in and learning.

The most important thing I can tell you is don’t get discouraged. First week I had the game, I was ready to ragequit entirely because I was just getting roflstomped left, right and sideways. I didn’t have a good spec, wasn’t aware of the mechanics, ignored some of my utilities…etc. Every time I died I was baffled, I had no idea what was going on.

You’re going to get eaten alive while you’re learning. Try looking at other classes weapon skills via a skillbuilder (or just rolling one, going to the heart, and trying it out yourself) so you at least have an idea what they can do. Pull a spec or 2 offline instead of trying out your own to start.

As for specifics, its fairly easy. capture the point. Stay on point, try to kill your enemies, or at least fear them off point, then slow them so it takes longer for them to get to you. Everything else you’ll pick up in play.

Hellkaiser.6025:

skale: Vulnerability stacks multiple times and is compounded by how many are applying it thus it’s good in that regard.
Spiders: Stacks duration, if they’re not running condition removal it can last for a while also has the most stacks to apply leeching venoms more which is the purpose of the venom share build really.
Frost drakes: chill is INSANELY potent vs certain targets but is ultimately the one that falls a little short I feel.
Devourers: is by far the most useful

and lastly

Basilisks: High synergy with rune of lyssa and is a potent stun

Venomancer is actually quite good if you build the standard 20/0/30/x/x
I do agree however that the aura range is far too pissy and the venoms being used up on misses and wild swings needs to change but the venemous aura trait was swapped to shadow arts due to the power of the build before if I remember right.

I still disagree – as good as the venoms are, they’re still lackluster when you consider the amount of traits you had to slot to get to that point. Thats quick venoms, (possibly Venomous strength), leeching venoms, and Venom share. On top of all that you’re -still- consuming 2 out of 3 utility slots, minimum, for venoms. If they fixed Aura range (which i believe is laughably 300, IE useless unless you specifically instruct your team to huddle around you) and venom use on miss, it’d be better, but still meh.

Concerning Lyssa runes with Basilisk – there’s nothing intrinsic about Basilisk venom that makes it good to run with these runes, besides the traited 36s CD. a venom with an application time for a 1.5s stun is still crap.

Above, when talking about spider venom, you mentioned “if they’re not running a condition removal…”. Anyone not running a condition removal (or 12) in the current meta is insane. I play an aggressive bleed spec, and I see my stacks wiped 2-4 times a fight (not counting support ele’s, who wipe them every 3s)- if you’re running venom share, you’re TTK is going to be fairly long – you’re going to see the same amount of condition removals, and with 36s CDs on venoms, you’re going to run out of tricks before they do.

Seems to me venoms should maybe go 1 of 2 ways -
A) Much shorter CD, fewer procs. 15s CD, 2-3 procs on spider, 1 on devourers, 1 or 2 on skale/ice drake. This will make it riskier for opponents to use their condition cleanses the second your poisons are applied.
B) Use venoms more like an enchant. Use spider venom – for the next 15s, every connected attack builds a “venom stack” at 3 stacks, the poison is applied to the enemy hit. For more powerful venoms (like devourers or ice drake), you could make the duration of the condition once applied very short, or increase the number of “venom stacks” required for application.

Just 2 thought off the top of my head, might not be the best.

edit: Look at it this way – in every fight you get into, there’s going to be a portion of time that 3 or 4 of your traits are rendered useless, because your venoms are on CD. You -need- those traits to make a venom build worthwhile, and they have basically limited uptime. I can slot other utilities and traits, which don’t suffer the same limitations, offer (arguably) similar utility, and tend to have quicker CDs.

Immo.9217:

You don’t need all 3 utilities to be venoms… and many of the cool downs are not bad when you trait for it 36 seconds seems long when you read but when your playing the venoms are usually back up for each skirmish although i do believe the builds are more suited for team fights over 1v1s

A traited 36s CD against a base 30s cd on more powerful, more versatile abilities. That’s the argument I’m making. It gets worse the more you invest too – if you’re running quick venoms, venomous strength, and residual, you -have- to be running 2/3 venom utilities just to make it worthwhile, and tbh, you’re probably also running basilisk venom (which is nigh useless outside burst setup).

I’m not saying venoms are the worst thing ever, but they are definitely lackluster, and outshined by nearly every other option we have. In a team setting, Venom share + leeching venoms has alot of potential… the actual venom effects are whats holding it back. In a solo setting, leeching venom is absolute crap compared to the other survivability options available in shadow arts; yes they’re stealth based, but stealth is your friend. I’ve tried to run a dozen different no-stealth or minimal-stealth survivability based thief builds, and they’re all crap in comparison.

The bottom line is, with all the resources and traits your devoting to making venoms passable, you could run more versatile, better utilities, have more freedom trait wise, and end up with an all around stronger, more versatile build.

Immo.9217:

Actually Dee Jay if you had looked through it you would have noticed he does put out updates to it with the last being 10/18 but I know reading is hard and some of the venom builds make up for lack of utilities by not rung themselves as glass cannons.

So they last longer to apply lackluster, easily cleansed, long CD venoms? All while not bringing any other sort of utility to the table? No shadow refuge for revival/stomps, no scorpion wire to pull targets off walls, no caltrops for point control, no blinding powder for stealth on demand, and so on. I’m not sure I follow….

Lets also note that “33% longer poison duration” Only affects the Poison condition – it does not effect the conditions produced by skale, ice drake, devourer, or basilisk venom. And there are bugs with Residual venom triggering the extra venom correctly on multi hit abilities.
Otherwise, everyone here is pretty on the ball concerning venoms.
- They’re kind of sub-par when looked at on their own
- They’re absolute crap when you consider how we could be using those utility slots
- The current meta is very focused on condition removal, so only short duration “setup” venoms (Devourers, basilisk, maybe ice drake) even have a use.
- Venoms are hilariously front loaded – with condition removal being what it is, why do i want spider venom to trigger 5 times in a row? So my opponent can conveniently clear it with 1 ability? By the same token, I probably do want devourers venom to trigger twice in a row – this leaves an inconsistency concerning venoms.
- 45s base CD is insane, considering how many better abilities have shorter CD’s

sami.3801:

Caltrops Thief is blatantly broken. They can stack bleeds on you too fast. While Anet fix them (if they fix it, but i doubt it), the only thing you can do is trying to go out of the caltrops. Hit him is very difficult cause he will be evanding the 99% of the time.

Every thief is blatantly broken. Anet, why won’t you make thief a free kill? They shouldn’t be allowed to do burst damage, they shouldn’t be allowed to be mobile, stealth is OP, AND their condition options are too good! When Oh When will you dumb down this game for us???

As for OP, DB only condition thieves are actually pretty easy to beat if you know what to look for.
A) DB is a very initiative intensive bleedstack. If you can dodge even 1, the thief is down 5 init. Once you’ve got a good number of stacks going, just cleanse conditions and you’re at an advantage.
B) DB cant be “spammed” – there’s always a chance to hit the thief between when they land from DB, and before they use another. Learn the timing and apply CC on landing.
C) Never ever ever stand in caltrops. Treat it like any other AoE, if you stand in it, you will die.

ehtom.5047:

Oh look its another post by evilapprentice saying balance is fine XD

Yup, it is. Because it is.

Boloth.6879:

evilapprentice.6379:

Anet is aiming for this to eventually become an e-sport. That means balance is centered around TPvP. The next time something ludicrous happens in a hot join, rather than running to the boards to cry, but take a deep breath and count to 10 – things that work with 8 unorganized lone wolfs are not the same as things that work against 5 coordinated players communicating via VoIP. I know this won’t do anything, but it had to be said.

In all the online games I’ve ever played, I’ve never seen kittening of this magnitude. Especially in a 2 month old game.

You bring up a good point.

However, it does no good to build a competitive game that’s balanced around a format that most players aren’t able or interested in playing.

8v8 hotjoin is the most accessible form of sPvP and the format most players will use to base their opinion on the current state of PvP.

By the same token balancing the game around hot-join would cause problems in TPvP. I’m assuming that since ANet’s goal is eventual e-sport, TPvP balance will be more important.

This has already been brought up. If i recall, poster responded that dev’s specifically mentioned “Different conditions will have lesser and greater effects by class, for example, thieves do not suffer the cooldown increase portion of the chill effect”… so it is by design.

Noctred.6732:

evilapprentice.6379

In all the online games I’ve ever played, I’ve never seen kittening of this magnitude. Especially in a 2 month old game.

Um, it’s pretty much the same as every other MMO with official forums.

In other games, I could expect about 50% of the front page posts to be kittening at any point in time. Here, it’s usually about 75%, and that’s taking into account there’s already a consolidated thread for kittening about a particular class.

Anet is aiming for this to eventually become an e-sport. That means balance is centered around TPvP. The next time something ludicrous happens in a hot join, rather than running to the boards to cry, but take a deep breath and count to 10 – things that work with 8 unorganized lone wolfs are not the same as things that work against 5 coordinated players communicating via VoIP. I know this won’t do anything, but it had to be said.

In all the online games I’ve ever played, I’ve never seen kittening of this magnitude. Especially in a 2 month old game.

Sigh. I’m done with you. When you finally take the blinders off and realize you need to L2P, feel free to rejoin us.

Dodging my point is actually more kitten than acknowledging it and choosing either A or B.

No Kill – you claimed you were good enough to have a Block ready for Bola. Thats what I want to discuss now. Is it
A) You’re good enough to have a block ready for bola, and therefore should be good enough to have a block ready for thief burst
B) You’re not good enough to have a block ready for Bola, making warrior just as broken (in your eyes) as thief, but you won’t complain about it because it doesn’t fit your “I cant beat thieves because they’re broken” mantra.

By your own posts its either A or B.

Just a couple bullet points

- Stealth stomping is less effective than stability stomping. Both are viable strategies with different strengths and weaknesses.
- There are “Save yourself” down states and “Save yourself and others” downstates. Thief, mes and now Ele are save yourself downstates. They’re unaffected by blind or stability, and can be used to reliably dodge a stomp. Engi/Guard/Warrior/Ranger/necro are save yourself and other downstates. They can be used to stop a stomp on themselves, a stomp on a teammate, or a revival on an enemy. Their increased versatility is countered by the stability/sometimes stealth/sometimes blind. They’re different but equal.
- Downstate is a counter to burst specs (which -everyone- is crying about). In a team oriented game (remember, this is a team game, not 5-8 players soloing 5-8 other players)a glass cannon doesn’t usually have the tools/utilities available to them to get the stomp off after they burn someone down. Thats part of the reason burst specs aren’t nearly as OP as everyone claims – because in TPvP you’re playing as a team, not a bunch of solo killers.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

evilapprentice.6379:

Killthehealersffs.8940

evilapprentice.6379:

Just out of curiosity, what would he have done against a Bola -> frenzy -> bullsrush-> HB’s warrior? By your argument, that’s broken too.

edit: Oh, and just a sidenote – the frenzy isn’t required with how squishy that mes was.

When we see the warrior pop frenzy , we are ready to dodge
We can <<see the bull rush>> animation and dodge
By having a player that istantly teeports + stealth + have a 10k free attack , aint gonna happen

Well, step 1 involved not running right by the thief and giving him free access to your flank – that’s beyond a rookie mistake. Secondly, I’ve managed to dodge Pre-load CnD->Steal dozens of times, and I’ve had it dodged when I use it. It’s actually pretty easy when you learn what it looks like, just as easy as dodging a bull rush. Maybe you should try that out.

Also, how do you dodge when immobilized by bola?

U should see again the video
He need less that 0.3 sec to be next to the enemy and attack him
Even Bull rash have 0.7-0.8 sec animation

When i see frenzy , its 2 parts
1) If he bola , i am already wating with shield block
2) if not use it , i can dodge it

Go ahead and scroll to 3:30 for me. Your skilled enough to have a block ready for bola, but not skilled enough to have a block ready for CnD → Steal? Seems to me your more familiar with Warrior than thief. Why don’t you take the advice that myself and others have posted 100 times across these boards – go roll a thief and familiarize yourself with the abilities that are destroying you. Just stand there and spam CnD – learn what it looks like, and how to identify it visually. By your own admission, you’re good enough to have a block ready for bola – you’re good enough to learn to block CnD→Steal. Its a L2P issue.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

evilapprentice.6379:

Killthehealersffs.8940

evilapprentice.6379:

Just out of curiosity, what would he have done against a Bola -> frenzy -> bullsrush-> HB’s warrior? By your argument, that’s broken too.

edit: Oh, and just a sidenote – the frenzy isn’t required with how squishy that mes was.

When we see the warrior pop frenzy , we are ready to dodge
We can <<see the bull rush>> animation and dodge
By having a player that istantly teeports + stealth + have a 10k free attack , aint gonna happen

Well, step 1 involved not running right by the thief and giving him free access to your flank – that’s beyond a rookie mistake. Secondly, I’ve managed to dodge Pre-load CnD->Steal dozens of times, and I’ve had it dodged when I use it. It’s actually pretty easy when you learn what it looks like, just as easy as dodging a bull rush. Maybe you should try that out.

Also, how do you dodge when immobilized by bola?

U should see again the video
He need less that 0.3 sec to be next to the enemy and attack him
Even Bull rash have 0.7-0.8 sec animation

When i see frenzy , its 2 parts
1) If he bola , i am already wating with shield block
2) if not use it , i can dodge it

Go ahead and scroll to 3:30 for me. Your skilled enough to have a block ready for bola, but not skilled enough to have a block ready for CnD → Steal? Seems to me your more familiar with Warrior than thief. Why don’t you take the advice that myself and others have posted 100 times across these boards – go roll a thief and familiarize yourself with the abilities that are destroying you. Just stand there and spam CnD – learn what it looks like, and how to identify it visually. By your own admission, you’re good enough to have a block ready for bola – you’re good enough to learn to block CnD→Steal. Its a L2P issue.