Guild Wars 2

Out of 947,742 views, 6876 likes, 4909 dislikes. people can spin it all they want it wasnt well recieved.

Um, that means it was a smashing success. Almost a million views. That’s the entire point.

Also, if a person needs to drink a six pack of beer a night I can’t say he is alcoholic because I was assuming that? Sorry but I call it like I see it even if we do live in the age of tolerance.

Right. Very unpopular to do this in the current culture, but it is what it is. There is a pretty big difference between the guy who has a beer or two with dinner and the guy who drains a 6-pack or 12-pack every single night. It’s the same for gaming, or any other activity (exercising, shopping, even working). Joe 12-Pack will also say “what’s the issue, I have kids and a spouse, and I go to work every day and I don’t get hangovers” etc. (pretty common for a “functional addict”, which most of them are or at least start as), but it’s quite obvious to everyone who doesn’t have a 12-pack a day that Joe 12 has an issue with alcohol.

And that’s ultimately one of the strongest tests of addictive or “leaning towards addictive” behavior: is it behavior that someone who engages in the same behavior to a more moderated extent would think highly problematic if done on a regular basis. If the answer is “yes”, then you’re walking down that path. Some will argue that “this isn’t fair because so many people think gaming is loserish”. But that’s not at all what I am talking about. I’m not talking about a tee-totaler thinking anyone who has a beer is an alcoholic. I’m talking about the mass of people who occasionally have a glass or two of beer or wine, and what they think of your 6 or 12 pack a day behavior. And the same is true in gaming, folks.

The great thing about GW2 is that they specifically designed the game NOT to be like that, not to encourage that behavior to anything like most recent MMOs have done. The sad thing is that so many people are already in that cycle that they find it strangely unsatisfying.

It was a perfect marketing video from my perspective — I understood intuitively that it was saying that the game is designed for people who are misfits under traditional MMO design approaches. It was quite clever, actually, and well done.

It isn’t a game designed around endless progression. That’s a core design vision of the game. People who want/need endless progression in a game will disagree with that vision, but it is the vision of this game.

The “core mechanic” of addiction, how it begins, is that it is an escape mechanism. And it’s a sliding scale, not a light switch. If you are craving various escape mechanisms on a regular basis, you’re on the addiction scale somewhere (and it’s common for people with “addictive personalities” to be addicted and/or to problematically use certain substances or activities as escape mechanisms on a regular basis).

Gaming is supposed to be entertainment. It’s true that there is a certain escape element to entertainment, but that escape element is generally limited by the time it consumes. That is also the case with gaming for people who game moderately. However, when it starts consuming substantial amounts of time either in the objective sense, or even just relative to how much non-work-related “free time” someone has, it is veering into becoming a coping mechanism, and something that is increasingly “run to” in order to escape life and its discomforts. And that is where the path to addiction begins, because these coping mechanisms are easier than dealing with that discomfort head-on, and in fact undermine your ability to do that at all over the course of time.

It’s the same with alcohol. One can have an extremely problematic relationship with alcohol use without technically being a physical addict, or someone who is so drunk that they can’t work and so on. It’s a scale. And the same thing holds for gaming or shopping or exercise or even work. The key is whether the activity is being pursued in a big way as a way to escape life. It’s the escape element that is the key — it’s the gateway.

Again, that doesn’t mean that a little escape now and then is bad or a sign of addiction. But that’s where the total amount of time becomes relevant. 16 hours a say is a huge amount of timing to be doing anything — working, sleeping, exercising, gaming — and is objectively a sign that the escape is swallowing up reality — the path was started down and progressed down. Not everyone who starts down the path of escape will progress down it far — most people just have a little escape here and there and then come back to reality, refreshed. (Again, like alcohol — most people have a beer or glass of wine or two and that’s all … while some feel the urge to “powerlevel” alcohol). Some people just have a greater proclivity to addict themselves to things than others do, and in many cases it has to do with a weaker set of coping mechanisms, such that more “comprehensive” escapes are attractive as a total coping solution. Gaming certainly is one of the things that can be used this way and, yes, how much you use it is extremely relevant, just as is how many beers you drink in one sitting and how often is relevant to whether one has a problematic relationship with alcohol, even if all of your responsibilities are (still) being met and you are not physically dependent. Gaming addiction is serious business, and gamers themselves, quite a few of whom are addicted or at the very least on the pathway towards that, are often the loudest voices in shouting down the seriousness with which this should be taken, unfortunately (but unsurprisingly).

gurugeorge.9857:

Two weeks after WoW’s release it was exactly the same: some people had gotten to 60 and complained about lack of endgame and stunk up the forums with their bleating.

Yup. I specifically remember the posts, too. They went like this: “This is World of Easycraft. Everyone is going to be 60 in 2-3 months, and then they’re going to quit because there isn’t anything to do. The game will be finished in 6-9 months”.

Kind of like Baghdad Bob, really.

It’s sad that even when you remove the subscription fee (thereby removing the tired argument of “the only reason people will pay is if the game has X”), people still want a very rigid model of what an MMO is and should be — it must have such and such or this and that or, oh my God, players may not play the game exclusively every day for 12 months or more like they did when they were in a Skinner box game.

So what if it’s like a single player game in terms of its longevity? Why is this bad? You’re paying the same way for it as you do for a single player game, and getting much more content for the money even if you just play through once to 80 and leave, at around 100 hours. If you like the W3 or sPvP or alts or other things, you get even more value from the game. And more content will come (according to Anet it’s coming for free), and then expansions will come, and you can come back if you want, or not if you don’t. It’s easy in and easy out, like a SP game. In a sense that is the real revolution of GW2. They had the cojones to make a persistent world MMO that doesn’t seek to have players play it nonstop for months on end in order for it to be financially viable. They had the cojones to design a persistent world that can be played like a single player game rather than as a lifestyle choice.

It’s different from a Skinner box game, that’s true. But it’s not trying to be a Skinner box game. If you are really into Skinner boxes, or think a persistent world MMO has to be a Skinner box, then you’re lucky because the biggest Skinner box game ever made is releasing an expansion in a couple of weeks and you’ll probably enjoy your time in that Skinner box more than you will in the kind of game GW2 is trying to be. That’s about you, however, and not about GW2.

DusK.3849:

I wouldn’t say “minimal”. One romp around Iron Marches or Timberline Falls will change your mind on that. Dogs that sniff a tree for hours and never find anything, a krewe leader under a contested waypoint needing protection from an army of undead that never attack, a couple of veterans that do nothing after clearing a hideout of Separatists… Man, I’ve had some crazy adventures.

Give it time, though. Hell, maybe just one more day is all we need.

Yeah I agree on the bugs. Iron Marches is a trip — I don’t recall ever seeing a release MMO zone as bugged as that is.

Von Adder.2487:

knightblaster.8027:

Using the forums as a standard for what the playerbase thinks is ridiculous, because forums are always overwhelmingly filled with complaints. Most of the content players don’t ever bother to come to the forums for any game. So, yes, you get more complainers like you on the forums, but that in no way can be extrapolated to the playerbase as a whole — forums are simply not representative of anything other than what the whiny minority thinks.

And can you imagine the state everything would be in if nobody complained or offered advice!

It’s called democracy!

Sure. That isn’t an issue. The issue is saying “oh, gee, there’s 30% of the people in this thread who agree with me, therefore there must be something like 30% of people in the game who feel like this” — that’s what I was talking about, not prohibiting people from voicing their opinions.

Okay. I guess some people did that. It’s odd to me because I would never assume anything about a sequel just because it’s a sequel, but I guess other people could. Anet did bend over backwards to tell people it wasn’t like GW1 in design, but I guess there are people who prefer not to seek out that information in order to avoid having the surprise of the game spoiled in some way.

I am just flabbergasted at how that could have happened. The 8-ball was not hidden about the endgame for Guild Wars 2. I’m just quite honestly shocked at how people could be surprised about it — it’s exactly what I expected personally based on what Anet was saying about it months and months ago.

The difference has to do with “progression” and it being required in order to access content. That’s quite different from a voluntary vanity grind.

Why on earth would someone spend 210 hours doing something they found to be boring unless they are being paid to do so. Isn’t that simply insane?

The concept of a treadmill is different from the concept of a grind.

A treadmill is where you are constantly walking and not actually getting anywhere. Progression gear games have a treadmill because there is always another tier of gear to get, and so you’re constantly working and look like you’re making progress except that you’re really not, because the goal line is always being moved. That’s a treadmill — the key is that it presents an illusion of progress.

A grind is simply repetition. So, learning how to play chords and scales on a guitar is a grind — you will be grinding them a lot until you learn them cold. Grinding in a video game is similar — you do something repeatedly until you get the goal you want. But the goal isn’t always moving — your progress is not an illusion, like it is in a treadmill game. So, in GW2 there is a grind for legendary gear or for some of the dungeon gear sets and so on, but it isn’t a “progression” grind such that there is always another tier coming and the goal line will be moved — it’s a grind towards a set goal.

In short, GW2 has cosmetic gear grinds (which was always advertised to be the case), but isn’t a gear treadmill because unlike a gear treadmill game (e.g., WoW, RIFT, etc.) the goal line isn’t always being moved back, leaving the player stuck on the same treadmill under the illusion of progress while really remaining in the same exact place relative to the goal.

Using the forums as a standard for what the playerbase thinks is ridiculous, because forums are always overwhelmingly filled with complaints. Most of the content players don’t ever bother to come to the forums for any game. So, yes, you get more complainers like you on the forums, but that in no way can be extrapolated to the playerbase as a whole — forums are simply not representative of anything other than what the whiny minority thinks.

Listening to feedback is good, compromising the core design vision to meet the requests of raiders, progress-questers and endless stat gear progression fans would be disastrous. There’s a big difference between those two things.

The problem, I think, is that people have the sound turned off habitually in MMOs and listen to music or chat on vent/mumble/etc.

Lower cap would have been better, and have most of the game be strictly horizontal progression with skill point challenges and perhaps having trait challenges as well to fill out the characters. Having 80 levels has encouraged a “traditional MMO mindset” among some players, whereby 1-80 is seen as “strictly leveling content” and therefore the need for “endgame content now that we are done with 1-80 zones” mentality. Downleveling was supposed to help here, but the mindset of “leveling content” vs “endgame content” was facilitated by having the level cap set at 80, unlike GW1 where it was a low cap and the rest of the content was horizontal progression.

stormstrike.9147:

Open PvP how? I didn’t know we had more than one faction.

He means wide open like Age of Conan or Ultima Online.

I don’t see how that works in a game where the entire design is around open cooperation between players (for example, DEs — woould have to be removed from a open PvP server, and there goes your core content).

I don’t want to grind to get the legendary weapon skin — I don’t find it fun. Hey, Arenanet, could you please make that grind optional? OPTIONS are great! People who want to grind their legendary can do it that way, and people like me who want to skip it can do it our way! Please give us OPTIONS. OPTIONS are great!

/sarcasm_off

That is a part of their vision. They didn’t want to make a game with quest hubs and shopping list quest completion, but a game based on exploring around and coming across content. Again, you don’t like that vision, which is fine, but it’s a core design feature of the game. Putting in quest hubs would completely destroy the core design of the PvE game, and, believe me, plenty of people, almost everyone I talk to, is quite happy that there are no quest hubs and quest shopping lists like every other bloody MMO.

Alente.2538:

The thing is, it’s not that I’d want to do so. But even if you play the game casually, you can hit 80 within a week.

In no way is that even remotely close to being true.

How many hours did it take you to 80? Took me ~85. No way 85 hours in a week is anything remotely resembling “casual”.

You don’t like the game — that’s fine.

Your criticisms go to core design decisions that you don’t like. Those are not going to be changed to suit you.

Evil.7529:

What happened to playing the game just to have fun and not playing it simply to get the next best piece of gear? If you don’t have fun PvP’ing then why would you have fun PvP’ing for gear? If you don’t have fun in raids then why would you have fun if it gave you better gear? If you don’t like doing the DE then why did you level up through them at all? Basically, if you don’t like anything the game offers, then why did you play it all the way to 80? If the game was fun before 80 doing all these things then how did it suddenly become not fun once you reached an arbitrary number? .

This is the reality, I think. People are utterly and thoroughly brainwashed by the Skinner box mentality. It’s simply the case that almost all content is viewed instrumentally by these players: what do I get out of it. That determines the “fun” of the content. It’s a very sad thing, but it goes to show you just how influential the Skinner design has been in online gaming.

This doesn’t work because it violates the entire design of the game. The “core” mechanic of the game is free cooperation and grouping between players — nodes, rezzes, no mob tagging, DEs. All of these would need to be ditched or substantially vandalized in order for a PvP server to work — which would do substantial violence to some of the core mechanics and design concepts of the game as a whole. No dice. Not going to happen.

It’s sad and unfortunate, but to be expected I guess, that every other post these days seems to be about how GW2 needs to be more like “my pet MMO, MMO X”. Um, not, it doesn’t. It has a core vision and one that Anet holds quite strongly. Twisting up the entire design of the game to make it more like your pet MMO is not on, and it isn’t going to happen.

It’s likely that the gold crunch that the game has is related to the gem exchange to some degree, but you can make some money on the market by selling mats.

Apotheosis.3786:

I didn’t see anything about deletion of vital dynamics.

What “vital” dynamics have been “deleted” other than endless stat progression?

DirtyHoudini.2917:

DusK.3849:

Traits: http://www.arena.net/blog/play-your-way-jon-peters-on-traits-and-attributes

Non-trinity combat: http://www.arena.net/blog/jon-peters-talks-combat

A general outline of the game: http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success

Blog post written back in February proving that people knew there was going to be no traditional endgame before the game was released: http://www.darkademic.co.uk/blog?id=202

So one more time for good measure, for everyone complaining about how game doesn’t have x feature or doesn’t play y way: Grats on being an uninformed buyer. You have nobody to blame but yourself for thinking this would be another WoW clone.

It doesn’t have to be a WoW clone for there to be progression at 80. That’s the problem, there is literally no more character progression, nothing for you do to anymore once you hit 80. What are we expected to just keep re-rolling new toons, exploring the same content because we already did all of it on our level 80? And also buy more character slots just so we can play and get every class to 80… Haha, what a joke.

The game is lacking, severely, stop trying to defend whatever delusion you have of it’s current state.

Dude, it’s GUILD WARS. GUILD. WARS. Arena was very clear that this was going to be a GUILD WARS game, which means that it isn’t about endless vertical progression at all. Not their philosophy of design, at all, and they were clear about this during the development phase. You want a more traditional MMO — that’s fine, there are plenty around.

Apotheosis.3786:

knightblaster.8027:

Birdy.4816:

Only it makes no sense, no where have they said there won’t be an end-game, they just stated that the content will be good from the start. a persistant MMO still requires the end-game…….

They’ve elaborated in some detail their ideas about what “endgame” means to their design vision — right here: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-endgame-reimagined/

You do realize that post is very new. No one bought the game after reading that post and reached lvl 80 yet. All the news actually going into detail about their shell of an endgame is brand new.

That post is new, but it was clear during the development phase that the endgame wasn’t going to be endless progression, but was going to be like Guild Wars was: easy stat capped gear, PvP, grinds for vanity looks, and the new element of DAoC W3. This was certainly very clear to me. Had the game instead had the typical MMO garbage of endless stat progression and gear castes at the endgame I would have been quitekitten because that isn’t what Arena had told us all along about the endgame.

Birdy.4816:

Only it makes no sense, no where have they said there won’t be an end-game, they just stated that the content will be good from the start. a persistant MMO still requires the end-game…….

They’ve elaborated in some detail their ideas about what “endgame” means to their design vision — right here: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-endgame-reimagined/

Did you not read about the game before you decided to get excited about it? It’s been known for months and months that (1) endgame gear is stat capped and stat capped gear is easy to obtain, (2) there would be a longish grind for cool looking gear and legendary weapons, (3) there were dungeons in the game but they weren’t a main focus, (4) endgame is mostly focused on W3, which was described in ways that make it very similar to DAoC’s endgame and style of PvP. None of this was hidden, and none of it should have come as a surprise to you. I think you probably ought to have researched the game a bit more before committing to it.

I love this setup because I like exploration, I hate endgame gear castes, and I like DAoC style PvP, but I also know that GW2 isn’t for everyone. One thing that was interesting in all the pre-release hype was that many people were getting excited and coming into the bandwagon without really understanding much about it other than “it’s the new big MMO” — which may be true, but it has a design vision that puts it at odds with the tastes of many MMO vets who like the existing model for MMOs — something that Arena’s vision was trying to distance this game from, and did so.

Zenith.6403:

Exactly knightblaster. Now we get back to the question I asked in opening post: if level-upping doesn’t give you a stronger character but rather appears to be a penalty, why have leveling system along the whole storyline in the first place?

I would have preferred if they had left it aside myself, and been more bold and just had 10 or perhaps 20 levels like GW1 and have the remainder of the content be horizontal progression like it was in GW1. I think they probably thought that was too bold, so they retained a leveling system while making it rather pro forma. However, leveling up isn’t a penalty if you are in level-peer content — it can become a penalty when you downlevel.

destram.3921:

Creslin.1758:

destram.3921:

Creslin.1758:

Just curious, since you think GW2 has no real end game…

Could you please tell us about an MMORPG that in your opinion had a good end game? And tell us what was so good about it?

Lineage2 had in my opinion best end game so far (yeah leveling was long and boring grind but eventually it paid off) (GW1 had lovely end game too) (WoW had nice itemization and decent end game when it was new~ not that many raids but still it was nice due properly balanced PvE) My point is pure PvP games simply can’t be sucesfull and fun without proper and balanced PvE content. GW2 currently feels like Counter strike 1.6 with leveling system.

Look at Aion it was pure pvp game for 2 years and it faild misreably now when they added PvE stuff game gained quite few milions of subs/players (even while it was pay to play players returned thanks to PVE content and less grind)

I’m not sure why do you bring your arogancy here… if you can’t accept my opinion please just leave. Once you get to max level at GW2 and after some farming you will realise how dull and boring “end game is”

I do know that not every one is bored but players are already drop like flies… I had full friend list of people that I played with and not it’s empty including my guild that had 223 people there are less than 18 peeps online at daily basis.

Not trying to be arrogant, I just honestly don’t understand why a lot of people feel like GW2 has an end-game inferior to other MMORPGs, and I’m trying to see your perspective.

Also, just for the record, I have never really played the end-game for any MMORPG, except for maybe UO (if it can be considered to have an end-game) because I normally get tired of them before I get to the end-game, or the end-game seems unappealing to me.

The only thing that I think WoW had for an end-game that GW2 doesn’t have is raiding…is that what this is essentially all about?

And in response to your statement about a “pure PvP can’t be successful and fun…” First off, GW2 isn’t a pure PvP game by any stretch of the imagination. And second off…League of Legends?

Seriously dude did you just compare Thug game to mmorpg… It’s like comparing Bf3 to bloody Eve…

They’re worth comparing because they are online games, and they do have a substantial overlap in playerbase (there are tons of LoL players currently playing GW2). Gamers are more ecumenical in their tastes now.

Zenith.6403:

Campana.9216:

I’m not aware of level scaling the way you describe it. It was my understanding that Level 10 gear will add exactly the same stats to a level 11 character as it would to a level 10 character.

- There are white stats and green stats. White stats are what your character has without any scaling taking place. Green stats are what your character actually has after scaling is applied.

I took two screenshots to illustrate this:
http://imgur.com/a/CiDPy

The first image is my character level 15 and second is my character level 16. I changed no items between these pictures. The white stats got higher from level up, but the green ones went down. This means that my character performs worse and the only remedy is to upgrade equipment.

Because you’re downleveled. The “gap” between your character level and your gear grew between 15 and 16, so in a downleveled state you will see a decrease in your effective stats because it downscales you to a level as if your gear at that level were equally lagging your character level. It’s a significant penalty, and is intended to be countered to some degree by having more trait points and utilities for higher level characters (obviously not the case with a level 15 or 16).

NyghtProwler.9386:

Xfuryion.6835:

I only read a little of your post and stopped.
Are you mad? Guild Wars 2’s intention isn’t to do the game as fast as posibile.
It’s just the opposite! It’s about exploring, having fun and do as many things as you can.
They always said it and the game shows it.

What is wrong with you people? Are you blind or something?
Please, just quit without this nonesense.

He didn’t really talk about the very great parts of the game in his post. I think his main issue is the twitch aspect of combat and that speed and reflexes (read: skill) rewards the player. He who is faster and can react to a given animation to dodge or CC or counter attack wins the day. He doesn’t seem to like that in his games.

I think he is stuck in the Ultima Online days where you right click to move and spam left mouse to attack. UO was a masterpiece – don’t get me wrong. For it’s time that was an awesome game.

Most gamer’s relate enjoyment to tests of skill and speed / reflexes and HATE basing ones worth on the armor they have on. I value myself as a skilled gamer but in a game like wow where I could not attain the highest tier gear due to time constraints – I was viewed as a lesser gamer because of my gear score. Yeah in my prime I was pushing 40+ hours a weak and had the best gear in the game… you can’t do that forever.

I would much rather pride myself on my own person skill vs. the game telling me how powerful I am based on a number representing my defense, or how many times I miss being based on a number.

Who can honestly sit there and say standing face to face with a boss and swinging 20 times at, and him swinging 20 times at you was fun? Only to find out that because of my stats I missed X times and he missed me X times.. What? I’m standing right here how could I have possibly missed him?! He is ten feet TALL! How did he miss me?

I agree.

I think that a lot of people need to understand that they really aren’t very good at gaming, and perhaps evaluate trying out a different hobby rather than being frustrated in trying to do something they really aren’t good at. If you don’t like to have your speed and reflexes tested, there are turn-based type games available that don’t have that, but in the RPG area, the trend is in this direction because most gamers find this fun, and are reasonably good at it. I’m not a teenager, in my mid 40s, and I can “keep up” because I am a reasonably skilled gamer — not the best, but by no means the worst, either. But if you are having trouble keeping up, it may be a good idea to find a different hobby, I think, because this is the direction these kinds of games are going to go in now, for very good reasons.

Daedalus.9382:

knightblaster.8027:

I like the current setup. If you really need a carrot to spend the effort to get the legendary weapon beyond the rather obvious (and very uncommon, given the time required) look of the weapon, then this isn’t a game designed for you. The idea of stat capping and then having long time commitments for unique looks is a part of Guild Wars, from the first game. Many MMO vets are kittening about this, because they want their stat advantage, but that’s not the basic philosophy of GW or Anet.

I know that but this is why I am fighting it. I am flailing my kittens hard and will keep kittening until the day I die of allergies from the fluff of fallen kittens.

That’s fine, but you’re pissing into the wind on this one. The position of Anet on stat capped gear as a level field is as strong as their position against subscription fees — it’s pretty much a core of their design vision that runs through every aspect of the game (as it did for the first one). You’re not going to get what you want here, because you’re attacking a core design philosophy of Anet.

I like the current setup. If you really need a carrot to spend the effort to get the legendary weapon beyond the rather obvious (and very uncommon, given the time required) look of the weapon, then this isn’t a game designed for you. The idea of stat capping and then having long time commitments for unique looks is a part of Guild Wars, from the first game. Many MMO vets are kittening about this, because they want their stat advantage, but that’s not the basic philosophy of GW or Anet.

hauntedwolfman.2930:

I am of the opinion that gold SHOULD be scarce and players should be strong enough to resist buying illegitimate gold. Gas is expensive / necessary in real life, but that’s no excuse to start stealing it.

I think the issue isn’t so much the cost of travel and repairs (that doesn’t help) as it is the inability to turn much of a profit on the Trading Post with the game economy being so out of whack. EVERYTHING that isn’t a rare / exotic or fine crafting mats is going for VENDOR prices on the TP – stuff you find, stuff you craft, whatever. Why people are willing to LOSE money in order to sink the in-game economy is beyond me (I can only assume they’re unaware of things like listing fees and the 10% selling fee). In most other MMOs I’ve played, you could sell drops and crafted items at a pretty decent profit so money wasn’t so hard to come by. But when you can buy a full set of decent level 50 gear for less than 10 silver, something is amiss. To anyone who’s paying attention, it’s not worth selling anything on there.

One main reason why this is the case is that the market is global and huge. More than 2m in this market. It’s very, very hard to make profits in a market that is so big unless the stuff that is being sold is actually very rare in the context of what is dropping for 2m players. Most of the stuff that drops isn’t rare in the context of what is dropping for 2m players, so it is priced accordingly. The stuff that is still not rare but is relatively less common, like fine crafting mats, is priced higher. And stuff that is actually rare like ectos and the exotic crafted gear is priced higher in multiple gold range. This makes sense given that the market is not confined to a “server” but is the whole game.

Remember, the game is designed so that it is hard for people to make money consistently — this supports Anet’s cash store model, which sells gold via people buying gems and exchanging them.

The options in the gear come from different … options. No one stop shopping for your favorite affixes.

You can also get exotic gear (i.e. stat-capped gear) on the TP from other players for gold. So that’s very unlike other MMOs, where such BIS gear is almost always BOP.

Folks, given that there is a RMT-based gold purchasing system run by Anet, they aren’t going to make changes to the game that cause people to use that less. Think.

The core design of the game is around a level field and stat caps being easily reached by the players, rather than progression-based rewards creating gear-based castes among the players. It’s true that many MMO players who like the gear caste system won’t like this, but it’s the core design — I like it because I hate gear castes.

KableZone.9137:

@Knigtblaster
What is the skinner box model? I think you misunderstand what people actually do find fun in a mmo. The fact is that getting to that next carrot is what is actually fun in most mmo, and its inredibly rewarding. Finding out whats fun and doing that only works in a very very short amount of time. YOu simply get bored of doing the same thing over and over with no other reward then it being fun.

I’m really not trying to create a flame post or anything here. I’m wondering what the fun of it is to you guys then. If you say the pvp part, i guess that comes down to preference. If you say pve, i really dont get you :P Maybe you should try some other mmo’s aswell and see what their veiw on fun pve is

On the Skinner box: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Skinner_box

Basically, keep on rewarding the subject with a carrot, and the subject will alter their behavior to get the carrot, even if they wouldn’t behave that way to begin with for its own sake. Progression endgames are a great example of this, and WoW is probably the most Skinner box-like game ever made.

GW2 isn’t built like this — to keep you playing because you’re Jonesing for the next shot of reward triggering the pleasure/reward centre of your limbic system. It’s designed for people who like the play in and of itself. This is why the endgame in GW2 is PvP mostly — PvP is something people can and do play because the playing of it is fun in and of itself (like we can see in FPS games, MOBA games, etc.). MMO PvP in the past following the Skinner box model integrated carrots as well, which had the odd result of behaviorally training people to consider PvP in itself to be unfun without specific carrot rewards — something players don’t expect out of a typical MOBA match or FPS session (or even something like TF2).

For too long MMOs have based their entire design around the Skinner box model, so much so that players have been shaped by it to find the primary fun of gameplay in the reward carrots, and to see the gameplay as something that is “grinded out” (i.e., endured) in order to get the desired carrot. GW2 breaks this to a large degree (while leaving in some grinding for vanity’s sake in terms of gear appearances, following the design of GW1). But if you are very much in need of the Skinner box model, you won’t like the design — because it is tying to be different from that, and be aimed at players who want gameplay that is rewarding in itself — where the fun of the play is its own primary reward.

In terms of what is fun PvE, look at Skyrim or Oblivion. It’s the same basic idea here, but in an MMO format. Content for its own sake, not as the means to an end.

Rock.7324:

62 here. Killed my first dragon.

It gets better imo.

Also, I have seen only one bug so far in a 50+ lvl zone. Some quest where you had to pick up artifacts and fix some golems and something. Was bugged for a couple of hours (that I went to check), but the positive thing is, you can go do some other things and aren’t “stuck”

That zone (Timberline Falls) has probably the lowest number of bugs of any high level zone, but apart from that heart (which is perenially bugged), also in the same zone there is a DE that is perenially bugged and a SP challenge mob which is missing. Perhaps the buggiest is Iron Marches, where a good 3-4 DEs are perenially bugged (NPCs in the middle just stuck, not doing anything at all), and in a few cases this has also bugged the local heart. And, another SP challenge mob is routinely AWOL. Overall the least buggy zone progression seems to be the Krytan one: Harathi -> Bloodtide -> Sparkfly -- which is probably why it also seems to be the most popular one. But there’s no way around noticing the number of bugs in some of these 50+ zones if you are playing in a few of them.

Elementalist is quite a bit harder than your typical “mage” class in this game because you need to stance dance with attunements effectively while you are being very mobile at pretty much the same time. You have twice as many abilities to juggle and no real ability to take much damage, so positioning is critical together with absolute mastery of the four attunement skill sets (20 skills) for your equipped weapon. It’s a challenge to play well.

I normally play a mage type class, but because of the challenge of the elementalist (I have one in the 20s), my main is a warrior, and I enjoy it very much indeed. It also requires good positioning and placement and skill management, but two weapons instead of four attunements (half as much to juggle in one loadout), and while taking a lot of hits is never a good idea, you can take more hits than an ele can, so you have a much wider margin of error. I also have a Guard in the 20s and he is very fun, too — very different from the warrior in playstyle, but higher outright survivability at the cost of a bit more play complexity (nothing like Ele though).

The classes in this game are NOT all equally challenging in terms of average effectiveness for the player with average skills. Every class can be played very well by a player with high skills (not saying they are all balanced), but it’s not the case that every class can be played well by a player with average skills in this game.

62 and have 12g. I don’t play the market (i.e., I don’t buy low and relist for higher prices and profit). I don’t craft other than cooking. I sell all my crafting mats that are in demand on the market (other than cooking mats, which I hoard), sell all blues and most greens to vendors (unless the green is fetching a decent premium on the market), and salvage only salvage items and whites that generate materials that are in demand (otherwise I sell to the vendor, too). I never use waypoints in a zone, or in a neighboring zone, and I always use Heart of the Mists to get back to the cities. I also run away a lot when in trouble in order to avoid being downed unless there are other players around me.

I don’t specifically go on farming trips — this is from just playing through the content and harvesting what I see and selling drops to vendors or on the TP at market prices. I think many of the other folks who are struggling with money are either (1) using waypoints a lot, (2) dying a lot in dungeon PUGs and incurring repair costs, (3) buying lower level racial gear, (4) salvaging stuff that can be sold for more money to vendors than as mats on the TP (or saving mats to use in crafting, thereby losing money) and/or (5) using the TP as a source for crafting mats and/or gear for leveling.

The bugs are more distracting for me than anything else in the zones past 50. I have no boredom issue, but it is very irritating when numerous DEs are bugged, and even hearts are bugged, in a 50+ zone. It’s clear these zones are much buggier than the lower level zones.

I think this is going to happen with people who like the standard Skinner Box model of MMO design. The design goal here is not Skinner box, but fun-based — find what you enjoy as an end in itself, and do that. Apparently, there are a lot of players who play MMOs not because they are per se in and of themselves fun in gameplay, but because of the Skinner aspect of getting the next carrot, and the satisfaction of reward vs time investment. That wasn’t what Arena was going for with this game, apart from cosmetic rewards.

They should leave them as is and absolutely make them 100% required for zone completions. It’s refreshing for an MMO to include new elements like these and make them required for certain rewards.

And another comment that goes against the core design of the game.