Guild Wars 2

Seriously JakobGW has done the math, he stays in stealth 2/3 of the time, only being visible for a good 5 seconds each time he reappears and you really dare to defend such a gamestyle? Try to fight against someone who’s only visible 1/3 of the time he should be and still does tons of damage, of course people will start complaining about it and it’s their good right to do so, cause this certainly isn’t the way ANet wants the thief to be played.

JakobGW.5730:

In the first ten minutes of the video, the first 13 seconds is fluff, leaving 9.78 minutes of actual fighting/running. In that period of time, Yishis does the following:

1. BP/HS combo: 93 times (avg. 3 seconds = 4.65 minutes)
2. Hide in Shadows: 13 times (avg. 3 seconds = .65 minutes)
3. Shadow Refuge: 4 times (avg. 12 seconds = .80 minutes)
4. Blinding Powder: 3 times (avg. 3 seconds = .15 minutes)
5. Stolen: 4 times (avg. 3 seconds = .20 minutes)

Total stealth: 6.45 minutes.
Total un-stealth: 3.33 minutes
Percentage of time visible: 34%

I voice no opinions regarding Yishis’s skill or the skill of the players he fights; those opinions are left to the watcher. I would, however, argue that this type of play style is exactly why there is so much thief hate all over these forums. Unfortunately, others will watch the video and copy the same play. I would only encourage new players watching to try something different and come up with a play style that is not what many veteran thieves would consider, myself included, “cheesy.”

Thank you, finally someone who thinks the same way as I do. D/P is fairly easy to play and it doesn’t even take a good player to be successfull, because its forgiving to mistakes. This might look cool in the vid, but as soon as you face a d/p stealth abusing thief as non d/p thief you’ll realize why this is cheesy and OP.

LoneWolfie.1852:

Since you already stated yourself that the D/P build is cheese and overpowered, easier to use than your mug build, it’s pretty obvious your 10/30/30 doesn’t need to be recommended.

Alright I give you that, you’re correct – if people need a WvW build they should rather use those mentioned in here, as they’re probably easier & more popular. Nevertheless I think if peoples intention is to get better, dictating them certain builds is the wrong approach as we’ve got many builds that work, its just up to the players preferences.

LoneWolfie.1852:

Nope, it’s not the best build we thieves have, not even remotely. What’s the point of recommending a build that only 0.1% of the thieves are probably capable of using? If you want a zerg build, full burst is the best, you want a skirmish build, D/P is the best, if you want a 3rd option, P/D is your next. Yishi’s the one who spent the most amount of time playing 0/30/30/10/0 D/D build, and he states that the survivability for DD has dropped, and I personally think it’s true. Whatever D/D build you have that uses stealth, your survivability and DPS has just dropped too much.

See thats what I’m talking about, you make your opinion look like it is a fact, which it isn’t, it’s all up to the player. No offense mate my reply concerning 10/30/30 being the best build, was meant to be ironic, just to show you how ridiculous it sounds to say build XYZ are good, the others are bad. Take it with a bit of salt. Damage & survivability has definitely dropped, but thats true for any stealth setup, d/p admittedly mitigates it better than d/d does, but its not broken, just the rotation is awkward and kittened.

LoneWolfie.1852:

Even if what you claim is true that you can do very well with your build, I won’t even think it’s possible for any average thieves to be capable of using it. I find it also highly questionable that you’re able to kill anything other than the squishy players. Anyone who runs a tank build should be able to survive anything you do.

As I said (nearly) every build has potential, it’s just up to the players preferences. Of course there are builds, which are easy to play (d/p – IMO) and others that aren’t. Although i feel we’re drifting to a e-kitten comparison, I can guarantee you that this admittetly uncommon build works fairly well against any build/profession. In the end I have the same, maybe even more damage output, it’s got less sustained damage, but I can somewhat burst, only downside is damage mitigation, but s/d control makes up for that. Hate the low initative regen though. :| The worst that can happen is that I can’t kill a bunker (guardian), but the same is true for d/p.

I’m just wondering if you(as in everyone) would really want d/p to become the new meta. It’s the stealth heaviest build there is and it would probably cause such a kittenstorm, resulting in stealth getting nerfed even more. A step towards the right direction would be to prevent the stealth stacking on this build or just remove the combo field from blinding powder and give it something to make up for. The overall package is just too good, but maybe thats just me.

LoneWolfie.1852:

Edit: Out of all the thieves I played, I haven’t encountered a mug thief that beat me yet (not including the full burst spec). I experimented with 10/30/30 before and I conclude that the lack of HP, last refuge and move faster in stealth, is less effective overall as a build. You walk a thinner line with that build too (lack of HP). And I think Yishis would have used 10/30/30 if he actually thought that build is better.

Yeah it’s true I’m obviously not objective concerning d/p builds either. I’ll elaborate on that soon, but just gotta say one more thing. Just because you haven’t encountered any good mug thief, it doesn’t mean the build is bad. I’ve duelled many people, even those who thought they’re tough guys asking out for a 1on1 just to realize that they got facestomped. U obviously didn’t experiment enough with it, because I run around with 16.8k HP, 63crit chance 80critdamage while still having 2.8k armor, it’s all gear dependant. The thinner line I’m running on is a result from the relatively low initative regen compared to 0/20/30/20 and therefore it’s less forgiving to mistakes, thus making it harder to play.

Ok lets get back to d/p: It’s obvious that u’ll have to stop them from hearseekering, but no class/thief has that much abilities to daze or immobilize them to prevent their constant stealth abuse. U’ll have to use x/P yourself to use headshot and daze him, because thats the only “spammable daze”, but even then the d/p build is more forgiving to such mistakes, because of the high initative regen and once he’s in stealth its almost like a free shadow refuge, he can heal up via stealth as long as he wants to. Hitting some1 with heartseeker still triggers the stealth combo while it shouldn’t, any other weapon set gets revealed debuff.. won’t mention the blinds at all I guess everybody knows how annoying they can be, but if you think a on-demand-as-long-as-I-want-to stealth is perfectly balanced, then thats up to you, but I think thats OP.

Also why would you mention Yishis? He’s good okay, but he’s no god and I personally think I could compete with him. Just because he doesn’t use the 10 / 30 /30 it doesnt mean its bad. He uses the 20/30/20 build, because it’s obviously better and easier to play for noobslaying (for him). I also pointed out that the d/p build is (probably) the strongest of all builds, I just prefer my build, because d/p is too cheasy to play (hello overpowered), fights aren’t exciting when u know you’re about to win almost any fight because of excessive stealth abuse. Get it?

Authority.6145:

So from hardcore

• One shotters
• HS spammers
• Permanent stealth
• Never-ending blinds

and now this.

Want us to kill you naked and with our punches next patch?

Just so you know: I main a thief, mostly in WvW, so I’m most likely not one of these forum warriors from other classes demanding a thief nerf, but this build was, is and will be the cause of our class being nerfed, its just too easy to play and its overpowered. Personally I play a balanced 10 / 30 /30, but I did play this build at one point aswell and its just too powerfull. You keep your enemies nearly perma blinded and you can easily stack up to 6 – 8 seconds stealth by blinding powder + heartseeker and therefore also Might. Not enough, the combo even triggers although heartseeker hits your opponent, whereas other builds instantly get the revealed debuff, d/p doesnt, which is quite silly. Unlike CnD you don’t even need a target to stealth and go for a backstab and while you’re revealed you just use blinding powder to prevent any incoming damage. Your target wants to run away? Fine shadowshot is a 900 range gap closer with only 4 initative and it once again blinds the oppo. If you miss a BP HS combo no problem due to the high initative regen.

Im fine with any other thief build but this is the cheesiest I have ever come across, I don’t quite get why ANet thinks the mug burst is too powerful, when there are builds like these, ever tried fighting a d/p thief as non d/p thief? U’ll get frustrated soon because 50% of your attacks will miss and your oppo can stack stealth as much as he wants to, its almost like perma shadow refuge and you don’t even have to stand still.

This might sound whiny, but thats just my opinion concerning d/p builds. I’ve duelled many people, even more thieves and I’d consider myself just as good as Yishi, but if you’re honest to yourself you’ll realize that this build is overpowered. CnD builds atleast need u to be in close range and watch out for any block or evade skills, but this one is a free stealth & backstab on demand, it might be not as bursty, but in the long run u’ll most likely win any battle due to the on demand stealth and the blinds. I have neither lost nor won any duel against d/p, but from a non d/p perspective its not worth fighting them because the battle will take ages, even if you’re facing a mediocre thief and thats exactly the problem: its too easy to play, unlike CnD builds.

Just a perfect example of what I’ve written in the “Best WvW build” thread. D/P is just too easy to play and definitely needs a nerf. Mug, CnD, Backstab combo is totally fine, but I guess ANet won’t realize that. Good luck fighting d/p thieves, they’re a lot harder to kill due to the perma blind + stealth abuse. :|

If there is one thing the thief certainly doesn’t lack, its build variety. We’ve got many builds that work. Some of them might be better than others, but in the end they all work good somehow. Being a good thief doesnt come from a build, but from the person behind the thief.

You’re promoting glasscannon specs (30/30/00/10 or 25/30/0/0/15), although most people will just faceroll over such specs, especially in zergs where an inexperienced player will probably insta die because of AOE. GC specs are probably the worst builds to go for as an inexperienced player, as you’re so reliant on insta gibbing people – if you miss or the oppo knows what he’s doing, you’re practically dead.

Second build suggestion is probably the cheesiest build we’ve got. Seriously there is nothing more lame than d/p stealth spamming. The build works either way (0/10/30/30/0 or 0/20/30/20/0). I’m rather puzzled that ANet obviously thinks this build is fine and rather wants to nerf mug. If you’re a halfway good player u won’t ever loose a fight. You certainly lack the burst potential of a 10/30/30 spec, but fights are so easy as your oppo is basically perma blinded and you’re almost perma stealthed. With the fix on shadow shot, it has become even stronger. I really don’t get why ANet thinks this isn’t OP, I’m quite sure this is not the way the spec is supposed to work, either blind has to go or the excessive stealth use. In my opinion this is the spec that will definitely get us nerfed, its just too easy to play. Also why would stealth trigger although u hit the oppo with heartseeker, this is just bullkitten, I’m definitely not a fan of this build.

Third Build – the infamous wild bill p/d build. It still works quite well I think, but there’s only a few people using it anymore as it isn’t FoTM anymore, although u can easily take on 1on3+ with it. Yet you didn’t even mention that u can also play a d/d condition spec instead of p/d, which is just as strong as p/d, if not even better. Still gotta watch out for glasscannon specs, because they’ll most likely burst u down, if you didnt pay attention or stunbreak is on cooldown.

All in all this is a very biased and subjective list, but you indicated that by saying it is YOUR opinion. Nevertheless saying sword builds are bad doesn’t contribute to your credibility. While I agree that s/p is a crap build, s/d is probably the best side set for WvW in terms of survivability and mindgames. I always find it hilarious, how I can troll entire groups chasing me. Infiltrator strike is just too good and it also offers stealth due to CnD. Also this is probably one of the best duelling sets, as u just wreck ur oppo’s mind by shadowstepping, stealthing and dazing.

Last but not least u didn’t say a single word about the 10/30/30/0/0 spec, which – in my opinion – is the best build we got, but as with every thief build – u have to be good to play it to its full potential and they all work somehow, so pick the one u feel most comfortable with – there are no good or bad builds.

Whiskars.2806:

laquito.5269:

Not the best quality and nothing fancy, but I still love her

nice armor!
from where do you got it?

Which 1? First picture basically is the human t3 armor, second is a mixture (Vigil Pants, Prowler boots)

Not the best quality and nothing fancy, but I still love her

The thing is that those on the TP are actually tradeable, whereas the ones you can buy with the bubbles aren’t. I invested some gold and lost about 25gold buying them (too early), but I’m quite sure they’ll be a lot more expensive once the event is over. Sword, Greatsword and Shield don’t look to shabby, so I guess they’ll range at the same price as the chainsaw in some months.

Kontrolle.3514:

So you really CANT stop invul/stealthstomps? Really?
There is a tool to do so. Guess what it is. Its actually pretty funny that you dont know it.

OMG fanbois.

1. On all forums about GW2 in all languages this game is released, people complain about this stupid class. Every 3rd thiefplayer admit that this is maybe the most broken class in history of MMO-gaming.

2. 95% of all people i know who played the game moved, and ~80% Of people i knew through the game moved. About 50% of them did it because of the horrible balance and stealth issue. A good friend of me laughed as he encountered the permastealth crap. No he didnt complain at all, he just deinstalled the game.

I couldn’t care less about your fancy statistics, seriously it’s not like you provide any credibility through it. You want us to have no stealth stomp? Fine then disallow invul stomps, stability stomps etc either and let us thieves finish people twice as fast, cuz we’re assassins after all, sounds reasonable eh? You don’t seem to get that stealth is the only way to mitigate damage as a thief, we ain’t got boons to protect us. A perma focused thief is probably the squishiest class in the game.

On a sidenode: I even said d/p – the build your friend tried – is OP, because it’s perma blind & stealth so quit the whine, thats the only build that needs fixing, rest is perfectly fine. People just call out for nerfs, because they’re unable to adapt.

Why is it that almost only non-thief players keep ranting about the class on the forum? We’ve got neither access to stability nor to invulnerability, no second life bar, no clones, no access to (massivly) block, no knockdowns, we can’t rally ourselves blablabla, yet people still whine about us. Invisibility doesnt mean we’re invulnerable or not there at all, if you can’t handle it, reroll a thief. Seriously its mostly bad players complaining in here and whats even more funny, is that they don’t even whine about d/p stealth spam, which is probably the only thing I consider OP – perma blind + stealthed needs to go, thats it. We’re a burst class by design, able to take out players fast, if they don’t pay attention, if you don’t like that design, move to another game. Now go troll yourself.

Frenk.5917:

laquito.5269:

Took a while to figure them. : )

I actually got mad about your stat since were better than mine in EVERY way. Then I realized I didn’t use nourishments, nor oils, nor I took the pic with fury and other buffs on

Nourishment & Oil are correct, so are stacks, but I don’t use fury, just 6 stacks of might, which I regulary have while fighting. So it’s really only might, haha.

Took a while to figure them. : )

Favourite to least favourite:
Ranger – Easy target, seriously you can not lose against them as a thief.
Thief – Sorry to say this, but mostly crap players
Mesmer – Dueled so many, one trick pony
Warrior – I just love stealing on them, barely a threat, if constant blinded or mindgame’d
Necro – Usually easy targets, but can be quite annoying with their aoe blind elite, freeze fields & fear
Engie – IF they’re played well, they can be quite a challenge, also really annoying aoe daze toolkit elite, tons of conditions, invulnerable
Ele – Similiar to Thieves, but they can actually flee from u. I love fighting good ones, but really – so many just run away after engaging a fight with me.
Guardian: – a well played guardian is a thief’s worst nightmare, tanky class, tons of blocks, decent access to blind, good healing power

These are just from duelling, if I had to chose my favourite and least favourite target just from WvW it would be Thief & Tanky Ele’s.

Snapple.9251:

I think, from what i’ve seen, every server you have fought against recently has had the same frustrations.
Elona and SFR have voiced their opinions too.

It is working, so there’s no reason to change what you do. Don’t deny us our venting about it on the forums -_-

I’m from Elona Reach, not Vizunah though. I understand the whine about Vizunah, because they’re rarely fun to fight against, they do run away from battles to hide in keeps, they do only engage fights when they outnumber you and they do hunt single players across the whole map with groups of 5+, but I’ve experienced almost the same behaviour with Deso players (except for the runaway part).

Anyway, see how subjective and biased these opinions are – even mine? It is obvious that theres no matchup for Vizu atm, but the real problem are not their players, but their night activity, which spoils the matchup for the other two servers. Flaming players isn’t gonna help much, as the perspective always lays in the eye of the beholder.

Why is it only Deso whining about Vizunah in here? From what I’ve seen, you don’t fight any different than Viz by now – zerging & hiding in towers. Every server does that to a certain extent, so no need to whine about it.

Everyone knew what the match is gonna be like – plain boring.

I just got one wish for the reset: PLEASE don’t let us get in the same bracket as Vizunah, I really wanna enjoy WvW again.

One of the few thief videos I enjoyed watching. You obviously know what you’re doing, but I imagine you having problems with burst thieves? I myself play a 10 30 30 balanced build and I don’t really have problems with condition thieves, but then again most thief players are… meh. No offense I just wonder how you’d deal with backstab thieves without using blinding powder as dodging the combo isn’t always possible?

Anyway I’ll probably try ur Deathblossom condi build somewhere in the near future, looks fun. Already played a p/d condition build, was too cheesy, boring and easy going.

Wow some people really need to calm down for a sec, its just a game. As already mentioned Elona Reach can’t contribute much this week and therefore we’re obviously going down. You need to understand that we’re only T1 worthy during holidays, other than that, we’ll be somewhere between T2 & T3, no suprises here.

Personally I’ll roam on SFR borderlands a bit more with my thief, but I’m looking forward to T2 and maybe even T3, less zergish less lags. Thanks to the few people I’ve had fun 1on1 / 1on2’s with, you know who you are. Either way have fun VZ & SFR, it’s probably not the last time we’ve been to T1.

Otaur.9268:

I’ve actually seen some mean regen/condition thieves where they can hold off 2 – 3 people.

Viable in the sense of contributing to the team/worth playing. In the end even a p/d is about taking out multiple targets, therefore damage. Played it aswell, its mostly easy going against 3 people the more they are the harder it gets. Thats the only build I’d consider “overpowered”.

Otaur.9268:

If they reduce the damage on steal and backstab to a reasonable amount, then it wouldn’t be so bad. The thing is, if a thief misses their first 2 button burst combo due to the enemy using utilities, they can shadowstep away and come back in less than 4 seconds, and re-do the combo before utilities are back up. For 10 – 24k damage every 4 seconds, that is a broken mechanic.

Or at the very least make armor / toughness scale better vs. backstab / steal (mug). I honestly do not care about CnD stealthing people, just the outrageous damage of backstab.

I proposed a 10% nerf on backstab, which would be fairly ok with me, but you gotta keep in mind that backstab only hits that hard due to the build being built around it (glass cannon). If you nerf backstab as much as you did it with dancing dagger it won’t be viable anymore, not to talk about its damage when you’re specced as non glass cannon. Mug barely does 2k damage for me anymore, maybe they nerfed it, I don’t care and thats not my point, but if we fail our initial 3 button combo we can’t pull of “14 – 24k”within 4 sec". Steal has a 45 sec cooldown.

Can’t say much about toughness scaling, but I do think armor comprimises damage rather well, anything with ~2k8 armor should easily be able to survive the initial burst and then its totally up to you to decide the match. I don’t think people would be whining that much about the thief if we weren’t able to stealth. Glasscannon Warriors can daze, cripple, push you, have access to stability, invulnerability and hit even harder & deal AoE damage, thieves got stealth and thats about it.

Now if you whined about P/D thieves being invisible 70% of the fight, I’d totally be with you and say they’re overpowered atm, be it due to culling error or not, but backstab whine is so outdated, if you’re struggeling with thieves just play one for a bit, get to know the mechanics and you’ll be a lot more successfull countering one, belive me there are enough possibilities.

Actually I think the thief is more or less balanced as of now (but then again I main a thief). As somebody said on this forum thiefs do extremly well against players, who don’t know how to play their class properly and thats exactly the reason for me, why so many people whine about thieves. The only build I’d consider overpowered is the p/d condition build, maybe due to the culling problems, maybe not – who knows? Maybe things would be better if attacks from stealth, particulary backstab and sneak attack had a cooldown of like 5 – 8 seconds? On the other side it might also break the builds, not being able to stack proper amounts of bleed anymore. Either way if you’re going to give a cooldown on stealth attacks you’ll have to buff us otherwise.

Anyway, some suggestions:

- reduce backstab damage by max. 10%
- increase dancing dagger damage by max. 20 – 25% (really its not viable anymore having gapclosers like heartseeker, which is almost spammable)
- decrease the damage of heartseeker (at least the below 25%), but leave range, rooting and initiative (max 4.) as it is
—> should be more of a gap closer than a OMFG 4500dmg spammable finisher
- d/d autoattack increase by 5%
- make p/p viable, also bodyshot & headshot need some love imo
- shortbow auto attack could use some faster traveling arrows, same for infiltrators arrow
- increase pistol auto attack or give us a trait for 1200 range
- revealed status is alright being 3seconds, but seems bugged sometimes as I get it for no reason, maybe thats just me
- trait 33% more movement speed while stelthed doesnt seem to work (?)

We don’t have anything viable besides heavy damage output, therefore thieves have to hit hard and then disengage, thats just the way a assassin works. Personally I would wait and see how things are when there are no culling problems anymore, because I do think thats a major factor for the huge amount of whine.

Typical thief whine topic. I do get people get mad over this build at the moment, because the thief is invisible 80% of the time due to the culling bug, but the opponents in this vid are mostly bad. Use AoE, daze, cripple, CC and knock him out of his shadow refuge and try to track him down with the clouds that appear on leaving stealth. This way you will be able to down him.

Personally I prefer burst builds over this rather boring build, because people will at least be able to see me, which makes the fights more interesting, but whenever I face such a thief I pull him towards some mob and use his own weapon against him. Use CnD on the mobs to stealth as much as possible, so that he won’t be able to Sneak Attack on you and when he’s visible burst him down with your backstab combo – there goes his superiority. Gotta say I’m quite successfull with this strategy, but then again you gotta be a thief, if not well then yeah… use the tips from above and really don’t stand crowded, otherwise it’ll be easy for him to land the CnD.

I really hoped that Anet would atleast fix the QZ bug, so that rangers are halfways competitive in PvP again, but it seems like the ranger is going to be just the same as in GW1 – a broken class. I rerolled a thief for PvP just to see what its like to be a top tier class and man… I can only laugh whenever I face a ranger. They can try literally anything to kill me, but they won’t – either I steath away when I’m low on health or I burst out my skills and kill him within seconds, while his pet is just standing there watching him die. Was this really your intention, Anet?

PvE is still kinda laid-back playing as a ranger unless you hit the 60 – 80ish areas. I don’t know if its intentional that mobs will almost always completly ignore your pet and attack you instead, but why the kitten is my drake able to hold their aggro, while they’ll completly ignore my bear? I don’t quite get the sense behind that dps-bound aggro. Not to mention the tons of times I hit “Call of the Wild” and my pet randomly starts attacking the nearest mob or when it was trying to find its way back to me and pulled every mob there is.

The class really needs some revising, especially the pets, but honestly I don’t see that coming in the near future, this reminds me too much of GW1 ranger.