Guild Wars 2

For those that have thrown in the idea of the “slippery slope”, mind the fact that this is actually the 2nd step, so we’re already on the “slope”. The Royal Terrace was the test to see if this type of pass would sell.

Now we’re at the next step down the line, of actually removing something and replacing it with a pay service.

Aidenwolf.5964:

lordkrall.7241:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Read it again, you’re wrong.

Please point me towards the place that says that EVERYTHING from Lion’s Arch would move to the Vigils Keep.

Page 1 of this thread.

Right here https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/escape/Concerned-about-Captain-s-airship-passes/3656207
The misinformation post was corrected in a later post, though.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

If it was an oversight they can fix by putting them into Gendarran Fields, then that’ll be done and then announced.

Or they could drop a one-liner in this thread/Twitter/Facebook saying “we’re working on getting more services into Vigil Keep”

I know they’ve done the same for other same-day fixes.

AcidicVision.5498:

mrstealth.6701:

I would find that to be a reasonable explanation, if they hadn’t remembered put all of those services into that airship. There are quite a few much less important NPCs/services that made it into that camp, as well.

By they you are assuming the same person worked on both? At this very moment I am working on a training simulation. I made a cable end spin as it connects. The person down the hall doing the same thing on another section of the vehicle didn’t make the end on his cable spin while connecting. There are dozens of these cables, like there are dozens of NPCs, and it would be very easy for something like that to slip all the way to acceptance testing.

I doubt living story updates have anything close to as rigorous as government acceptance testing. So it’s very very possible for one engineer on a time crunch to forget something that another might not. For all we know there could have been something that was supposed to be in the captains ship that slipped, but it goes un-noticed because we either didn’t expect it to begin with, or it’s visibility isn’t as high to players as crafting stations are.

As to questions about how I am chatting away on forums at work, see the attachment…

Whether or not this was planned will come out in their reaction and response to it. So far, we’ve heard nothing aside from one person correcting his previous claim that all services were present in Vigil Keep. There was no mention of that being unintentional, or that it was being looked into. If they keep silent, and nothing changes, then we can assume that those services were intended to only be in the airship.

In my opinion, if this was just an oversight, we should have at least some short statement about the issue by now.

digitalruse.9085:

Two sayings immediately spring to mind: “When you see hoof prints, look for horses, not zebras” and “Never attribute to malice that which is easily explained by carelessness or stupidity”

The most reasonable scenario, as far as I can see with the facts I have, is that acting on player demand that the LS have a greater impact, LA was destroyed. Knowing full well that people depend on LA to stand in front of the bank and show off… I mean have convenient access to services, ANet relocates many of those services to Vigil Keep. In the process, crafting locations are overlooked as bringing up Asura gates to cities, WvW, and Fractals likely took a higher priority.

I would find that to be a reasonable explanation, if they hadn’t remembered put all of those services into that airship. There are quite a few much less important NPCs/services that made it into that camp, as well.

laharl.8435:

Why go to a new place when you didn’t have to before? Uh, because there is a war. Would it really make sense to keep all crafting and vendors available in the middle of a war zone? C’mon people, there are actual issues with the game, stop trying to make issues up.

So, you’re saying it makes no sense to have them in an airship above the refugee area? Because those services are still there in that airship, you just have to pay to access them.

It would make sense if they were just simply gone. But that is not what happened.

The whole idea of that airship is a bit absurd. That should be a valuable part of the effort to retake LA, not a mobile village market full of merchants and craftsmen.

Where was he keeping that thing anyway? I don’t see a ship flying out of LA during a massive air assault being very believable.

Fungalfoot.7213:

People still remember the ascended debacle and all those poor balacing decisions. Sure, the initial kittenstorms might have subsided but it’s still all there on the record. This too now.

That was one of the biggest strikes against the game for me. The airship pass/services issue is minor in comparison, but it’s still something that won’t be forgotten and will push our opinions further onto the negative side.

AcidicVision.5498:

People have been leaving in droves since karma changes, and BLTC unique skins, and since WvW orb hacking, and since Fractals, and since ascended, and since their favorite class got nerfed, and since every other significant or insignificant change that has happened since launch.

Let me share a secret with you, 9/10 people that say they are quitting over something like this, on the scale of temporarily adding hopping through a waypoint to their town activities, you could add to your friends list and see them playing happily playing as usual.

That is why “game is dying, everyone is leaving!” hyperbole never gets a response and why it just gets laughed off. Anet actually has the numbers. You and I can actively watch the “quitters” mosey along in the game. NCSoft earnings report published that GW2 is making money. More than projected for this last quarter if I recall.

Most of the people that actually quit over these things likely do so silently. Those that are vocal are the ones that care enough to want to see things improve, and are more likely to stick around for the aspects of the game they do like.

For me, each decision like this just tips the scale farther in the direction of the bad outweighing the good. I’m not going to quit over this. I already spend a large portion of my time logged in simply for social aspects/chatting. I probably would have quit long ago if I didn’t have several longtime friends that play. So yeah, I’ll keep playing or at least logging in, but my desire to actually do anything in this game goes down another notch.

After a couple rounds of this LA assault, I’ve seen all there is to see if the new content. So I really don’t understand all the praise for giving us so much new content. The content they released a month ago is already gone, and this one will be gone shortly too. It’s nice to have some new stuff added, but it’s usually just a little bit of content with achievements designed to have you repeat that content. The living story isn’t a bad thing, it’s actually a good concept. But I don’t think it holds up well enough to be the only new content. Especially not if they see monetizing previously free services/conveniences as part of the business model to support it. I’d rather see a $40-60 expansion.

Just ask yourself one simple question. If a friend that quit 6-8 months ago asked you what was new since they left, how much would you have to tell them about? Keep in mind that most of the content you’ve seen over that time, is now gone and they will never see it.

Alukah.2063:

None of this is killing the product, it’s just washing out the gw1 fanboys who can’t get over the fact this isn’t gw1, gw2 is a MMMORPG and small changes like this wouldn’t even get a mention by a community that is used to play MMORPGs. This is change is irrelevant and small, gw1 fans are blowing this out of proportion like they do with every single change Anet makes

It’s more like those that supported Anet in GW1 aren’t happy seeing the company turn to inventing reasons to charge for conveniences that have been free for a year and a half. It has nothing to do with the fact that GW2 is a MMO. If you removed similar services from a major hub town in any other MMO for the purpose of sticking them behind a paywall, you would get the same reaction.

I don’t think most (if any at all) of us having issue with this would care if the crafting stations were completely gone from LA/Vigil Keep. The entire problem is that they are charging extra money for access to them now.

If I wasn’t happy with GW2 because “it’s not GW1”, I would have cancelled my preorder after the first beta weekend I played in.

Maybe it’s just the fact that some of those trying to defend this are used to free-to-play games, where this type of monetizing is more common, and more understandable. GW2 might lack a sub fee, but it is certainly not a free-to-play game.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Nothing has been definitively stated that Vigil Keep will be the new hub though. It was stated that ‘essential’ services would be moved there temporarily. Following the basic logic of a surprise attack and ensuing siege, obviously not everything can be migrated. It makes sense that an actual hub may not be re-established in a permanent location until after things settle down.

So why are they selling permanent passes to this airship? I do agree that Vigil Keep (in its current state) being the hub won’t be permanent, but whatever area is made into a permanent hub (rebuilt LA, overhauled VK, etc) will have this airship present, and have its layout/services setup to encourage use of passes.

The only other option is that they are selling a permanent pass to an airship that is only a temporary addition, which would infuriate anyone that buys those passes.

Rangersix.1754:

Aedelric.1287:

Well done, you just typed the dumbest thing I have read today.

If you don’t see the Asura Gates as a service, you’re only fooling yourself.

mrstealth.6701:

What ‘evidence’ do you want?

I use the thing pretty much any day I’m actively doing world boss events. Usually several times on such a day. LA is my stop between those events to unload inventory, condense crafted mats to refined varients, and put rare drops into the MF.

And how many times does that happen? 2-3 times a day? You’re losing out on time for everything else you do far more often. Accessing the bank and TP more often. The MF is used rarely, even in your case compared to everything else you need to do.

I am honestly laughing at the fact that people are using the Mystic Toilet to lose their kitten.

I’m not claiming it’s a huge inconvenience. But the issue is the fact that convenience was removed simply for the sake of being able to charge money for it.

It’s like your landlord comes into your house and makes everything in the bathroom attached to your master bedroom coin-operated. Sure, you have another bathroom or two in the house you can use for free, but you’ve just had a nice convenience locked behind a pay wall that wasn’t there yesterday.

Firewalker.2583:

Just can’t see the point of this. You have all the other cities. Come on.

And second yesterday I was crossing the Vigil Keep and everything that was in LA is there. I won’t buy the pass, and I dont see the need for it.

Plus, even if you buy the pass to have access to a more practical central point of the game, so what? Arena net does not charge you with 15$ every month in order for you to play the game, nor does it give you half the game free and makes you pay to have the other half.
They give you a full game for the usual retail price and content updates every 2 weeks. They need to get money somewhere and they do it selling stuff that’s not even required for the players to have a good game experience. The pass is a comodity, you really don’t NEED it.

The crafting stations are not there. The profession trainer/reset NPCs are not there. The laurel vendor is not there.

This could all be a non-issue if these services were somewhere in Vigil Keep or the adjacent camp. Leave the pass-only airship as a slightly more convenient option, but don’t remove the services entirely.

This is the same as if they had removed the crafting from Divinity’s Reach when the Royal Terrace was added. Would the same people think that was just as acceptable?

Rangersix.1754:

Antara.3189:

No I’m just discussing semantics as that’s all the other side seems to justify, which isn’t the real point at all.

Just because you only use it “once in a blue moon” doesn’t mean others don’t.

You have not, and can not, provide any evidence for requiring heavy MF usage. You are making an elephant out of a mouse.

What ‘evidence’ do you want?

I use the thing pretty much any day I’m actively doing world boss events. Usually several times on such a day. LA is my stop between those events to unload inventory, condense crafted mats to refined varients, and put rare drops into the MF.

Findan.2439:

Has anyone stopped to think that maybe, just maybe this minor ‘inconvenience’ is part of how the Living Story world is evolving.

Except that the convenience is still there, just behind a paywall. There could be a claim of it being the world evolving, or part of the story, if they had just completely removed them. But they didn’t, they put it behind a paywall instead.

Medazolam.3058:

what is stopping you from going to another city? serious question. what existing convenience did they remove that wasn’t already more convenient in other locations?

They removed the convenience of being able to do this from a central hub. A central hub that had all of these services with a relatively small area without having to WP between them. Crafting, bank, trade post, mystic forge, and trait resets.

And, on average, from where ever you happen to be on the map, it’s just more convenient to map back to a central location than one on the fringe of the map. You could always map to the nearest city, but that means a changing layout to adjust to in each region. Having that central location that is still relatively close to everything else is a convenience itself.

It’s also worth mentioning that us humans tend to be creatures of habit. And for many of us, one of those habits was using LA as our ‘one stop shop’ throughout the day’s gameplay. Stopping off in LA to empty inventory between dungeons and world events, refining our material drops, resupplying out stock of food, or throwing are unwanted rares into the forge. And now that habit is broken, for no reason other than Anet wanting to charge for something that was free yesterday.

Having Vigil Keep as the new hub would still take adjusting to a new area, but it is at least in almost the same location on the world map.

And as I saw mentioned earlier, in another thread I believe…a central hub is better for the game community and social aspects. Encouraging players to spread out just separates us from each other, and removing a hub that has all services creates the need to leave a conversation in order to access those services.

cortin.9174:

They’re releasing quality content for a game that costs no monthly to play. Personally I think it’s ok they make some money, they deserve it. I’d rather they make money so they can keep releasing quality content, rather than go the ways of SOE games where people pay for expansion packs and still don’t get quality content.

There has been $53.75 worth of gemstore merchandise put out in the last 7 days, not including the passes. Charging for new things they have made is fine, but removing an existing convenience and placing it behind a paywall is just a shady business decision.

Waldir.2571:

nekretaal.6485:

Vigil keep doesn’t have a laurel vendor either.

It does.

It’s aboard the airship, which requires a pass. Unless there is one somewhere else that doesn’t have a map icon.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Except, of course, for bemoaning the Living Story actually doing something which impacts the world . . . after people belittled it for ages for not doing anything other than just doing minor events in a few places. They kicked it up a notch.

I don’t see anyone complaining about that. And sticking the crafting and profession trainers behind a pay wall has nothing to do with world impact. The impact this update/living story had on the world would be the same if those services where in Vigil Keep instead of the adjacent, pay-walled airship.

Forcing players to other areas to do the same things we’ve always done in LA has no impact on the game or story. It’s just displacing and spreading people around with no reason or benefit, and creating an inconvenience.

cainejw.7142:

Again, the fact you can go somewhere else is a moot point. That is the rationalization that this is OK. The issue is that they took features in LA and put them behind a payment requirement.

This.

We’ve had these conveniences at no extra charge for the last year and a half, but now we have to pay extra for no good reason.

Also, I get the impression that Vigil Keep is just a temporary location for services, yet they are selling a permanent pass to the airship. Am I the only one thinking that LA will be rebuilt with either the crafting and other services missing, or spread out to be very inconvenient? Of course, the airship would be parked right over the Trader’s Forum for easy access for those willing to pay up.

And I’m fine with Anet trying to get money, but this is a really bad way of going about it. This release has been monetized enough without the passes. 3000 gems/$37.50 worth of finisher and armor sets, plus the 1300 gems/$16.25 in novelties put out last week.

Mark Katzbach.9084:

We have not removed the central hub. All services have been moved to Vigil’s Keep, due to the attack on Lion’s Arch. You can find everything there.

Some of those services are just unavailable till you cough up gems for a pass. I didn’t need a pass to craft at the central hub an hour ago.

I really don’t like the idea of making the central hub city’s services available only via the gemstore. I know they are elsewhere in the game, but LA is the main/central city.

Removing a convenience for the purpose of selling selling it in another form is something I expect from a free mobile game, not a game with a retail box price.

goldenwing.8473:

Players on high pop servers are also being affected by those other players flooding in and “using” that community for personal gain. No one likes feeling used.

It just diminishes community all the way around.

You’re right, it goes both ways. That’s one reason why I don’t even guest on other servers for world boss events. BG has enough of their own players to fill a map, I don’t want to be there keeping the native community out of their own event.

YB has been my home since November of 2012, and I have no intentions of moving somewhere else. Especially not for a few shiny trinkets.

timidobserver.7925:

I agree with personal rewards, but it won’t happen. Server based rewards are more profitable, due to stimulating server swapping. Obviously Anet will go with what is more profitable.

Unfortunately this is true. They’ve decided that profit is above even the integrity of the game. It might be profitable now, but it’s damaging to the game in the end. It’s moves like this that will turn away the more dedicated wvw players, with the devastating effects it has on server communities.

WvW would certainly be a mess if degraded to where the majority of remaining players were the ones hopping server to chase rewards. They would get their rewards, Anet would get the money, but would anyone be enjoying the game?

It might be a overly pessimistic view, but I do think that every decision like this is one small step towards that end.

babazhook.6805:

As example I get 50000 wxp points through the tournament in game. This gives me 25000 WvW reward points. I can then use these reward points to buy one or more of the offered rewards.

Thus a player who gets more WvW reward points on a lower tiered server can buy more rewards then someone on a higher tiered server that just participated for a few hours. (one still must complete the meta achievement in order to spend those points)

First second and third based servers then get a bonus to said points though one that is not extreme and all accrued points one might have are lost if one transfers servers.

Thats the kind of system I’d like to see. Server-based rewards like a finisher based on placement aren’t an issue. But giving more tokens that can be traded for exclusive weapons and ascended gear gives an absolutely better reward, which people are understandably willing to change servers for.

Giving rewards based on the results of a competition that was designed to be imbalanced is just absurd. They might as well cancel the tournament and throw darts at a board blindfolded to determine how many tokens each server gets. At least that would give every one a fair chance at getting the max rewards, because right now only a few servers even have a shot at it.

sirflamesword.3896:

Who would want to spend 1800 gems to go to a different server to get “better” rewards in game?

A lot of people, apparrently. There were a lot of players/guilds moving before Season One started, and we’re already seeing transfers now for the upcoming Spring Tournament.

1800 gems can be bought for about 155 gold right now. Which is a price many people can afford and are willing to pay. Especially when the rewards promise exclusive skins and ascended gear.

SoPP.7034:

mrstealth.6701:

And now we have the possibility of mid-tournament bandwagoning

Good point, if its clear who is going to win many will jump onto that server provided there’s still time to have their rewards switch to it.

We don’t really know how it determines your server association, but my best guesses would be either your active time in wvw or how many days you’ve been on a given server. With the former, I can see people intentionally not participating at first, then changing server after they’ve found a clear winner. In any case, I don’t see how anyone on the dev team could think this is a good decision for the game and players.

The tournaments are definite wvw population boosters, but we need people to be boosting the population of the servers they are already on.

edit: I don’t mean to lay full blame on the dev team, more so onto those above them. I know there are people at Anet that do care about the game and community. But in the end, they are answering to those that only care about the almighty dollar.

pswendel.8179:

I think it’s safe to say they are more than paused.

I don’t think we’ll see any more than a trickle of activities being added to the daily rotation with related living story updates. Pre-release marketing claimed the game was shipping with 30 activities, usually citing a bar brawl as the example. The game shipped with 1, and it wasn’t even the poster-child example we had heard about for so long. A year and a half later, we have 3 more. We’re still 26 short of what the game was supposed to launch with.

Simonoly.4352:

None of the functionality of LA will be changed and LA will basically just resemble Orr for the next month or so. After that it will be the same old LA with the same central city functionality but much of the structures will be damaged.

However, if Anet completely change things up with LA I will be genuinely impressed.

They’ve already said (via Massively’s article) that LA’s functionality/services will be moved to Vigil Keep for now. And there will be some other entry point to start any personal story content that is in LA.

I’ve been missing my bonuses since Tuesday’s update. Several guild members reported the same thing, but none claimed they were still getting bonuses outside of wvw. Is there any confirmation that some players are still receiving their bonus stats?

I was one of the players impacted by the bonus bug at release, and I never actually saw the bonuses working till the final attempt at fixing them. I know I saw a few sets of patch notes that claimed to fix it, but those always ended up being partial fixes that left many players still bugged. I’m hoping this one is at least game-wide, so we don’t have another situation where only some players are missing out on stats for 5-6 months.

Zera Allimatti.2541:

Also, often times when the player has a foe targeted that doesn’t cause the player to run in place, sometimes the player character runs past the target, stops, and ‘hits’ air.

That part of the problem isn’t limited to just warrior GS #5. I’ve seen the same thing with at least a couple movement skills. I haven’t used GS on my guardian much recently, but I think it still happens with GS #3. When it happens, you usually land just behind the target facing away from them

Guardian’s GS seems to behave more erratically when you are on higher ground than the target, even if it’s not a large difference.

I’m not getting any of my server’s WvW bonuses unless I’m actually in WvW. They are not even showing up in the tooltip for the wvw menu button.

I’m on my home server, not in an overflow or instance.

Does that happen when you’re holding a weapon without auras or other particle effects? That’s the first guess I’d have for a possible cause.

Lightsbane.9012:

stop. just stop right there. wvw players are in the worst place in the game when it comes to getting a legendary. pve players with a metric kitten ton of achievment points have probably literally thousands of badges of honor, where wvw players have to farm them. get it?

To be fair, pve is the ‘main’ part of the game. It’s pretty obvious by all the marketing, hype, etc, that pve is the primary focus and what they are pushing to sell copies. I don’t think anyone that bought the game only for wvw should be expecting every cosmetic item from pve to be attainable in wvw. There have even already been quite a few improvements for wvw players as far as gear goes.

On the other side of the coin, I don’t think enforcing wvw participation for otherwise pve-oriented goals (legendary and map completion) is good for the pve or wvw communities. I know Anet wants to draw more attention to wvw/pvp, but trying to force it on players that don’t want to be there just makes it worse for both sides. Players buying a game with so much pve focused marketing are likely not expecting, or wanting, pvp as a requirement for getting prestige items. And making those requirements more strict 18 months after release is just absurd.

Just to be clear, this is coming from someone that enjoys both wvw and pve. Although there have been times where I have done only one of the two almost exclusively for months.

I like the map design, it’s just so much different than the other wvw maps. I really like the idea of putting walls on more open areas instead of just having small, completely sealed towers.

Danikat.8537:

Apparently they’re only in high level maps.

I’m guessing that’s Frostgorge in your screenshot. Was that marked on the map before/after the portal was opened?

I’ve looked for map markers in a few zones, and haven’t noticed anything.

I’m curious about how likely these are to land someone in wvw without even realizing it.

My server was doing decent Wednesday-Friday of last week, with most evening (5pm-1am EST) events succeeding. But since the weekend, that completely fell apart. I’m fairly certain that there were no successful runs from Saturday till Tuesday. By that time I was bored of farming pieces for keys, and just annoying at every attempt ending in 2/5 chains being broken. I’m not sure if there have been any wins since Tuesday, but from the few primetime attempts of I’ve seen since then, my guess is most likely no.

As bad as it is to see, I don’t care much myself because I already have all of the Mari-related achievements. But for anyone that didn’t get them during that 2-3 day period of good runs, guesting is the only option to even see a fight with champs 4 and 5.

I understand the desire to increase the overall skill level of players, but face it, some people have no interest (or capability in some cases) in being any better. You can’t prevent them from participating in an open world event, so it’s really best to keep challenging content in an environment where you have control over who you play with.

Nabrok.9023:

Well, I have a hard time defining what’s PvE and what’s not in WvW zones.

It is a rather fuzzy line, but I don’t think I’d consider a toxic chute event much more wvw-related if it just added a few points to the score. Maybe if it had some impact on the map or gameplay, similar to mercenary camps defending/assaulting supply camps. All they really did was spawn mobs along yak routes, but they just attacked any server’s yaks.

I think what I’d like to see out of the EotM content is an NPC defended keep. Let Scarlet take over a keep and try hold it with her large armies and siege weapons. That would have the potential to be a decent introduction into one of the major aspects of wvw.

Nabrok.9023:

lordkrall.7241:

We don’t.

We want potential new WvW:ers. And this is a good way to get that.
There are quite a bit of people that had no plans to enter WvW because they have decided from the start that they won’t like it.
But then they actually tried and and started playing it regularly.

Absolutely. Things like map completion and achievements bring people into WvW that might never try it otherwise, and a lot of those people find out that they like it and become regular WvW players.

Of course, there are others that just come in, get what they need, and leave. Not everybody is going to like it, but at least they gave it a shot.

I think daily achievements and the wvw season achievements are the way to do that, even though the latter did pull in a lot that never wanted to be there. Those at least get players involved in wvw-related activities, so they have that chance of finding that they enjoy it. Unless this new living story content involves existing wvw mechanics and goals, it’s nothing more than tacked-on pve content on a wvw map.

Players on an open world combat map trying to complete pve goals are likely to just be griefer bait. Maybe that’s an overly cynical view, but I see it as being very likely. If you want to do something to get people onto a wvw map, it needs to be directly related to wvw. Trying to populate the map with players that aren’t even there to do anything wvw-related is pointless and harmful to everyone’s experience.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Also, I hate seeing players who really like WvW saying they don’t want PvE players showing up in their game type. It’s basically saying “we don’t want new players in our format, we just want to retain the people who play there and screw those servers where it’s almost empty all the time”.

It just doesn’t seem . . . wise to keep going “we want X players only” while wanting the format to succeed.

I want to see new players getting into wvw, but that means players that are actually interested in wvw. Not players that don’t really want to be there, and are just after achievement points/living story rewards.

Nabrok.9023:

The WvW components yesterday were quite easy (all solo-able), I could certainly have completed them in less than an hour if I wished, and I stayed in WvW for a while after they were done. I don’t do all the achievements because they’re there, I do all the achievements because I enjoy playing the game.

I’m not a WvW player. I’m not a PvE player. I’m not a sPvP player. I am a Guild Wars 2 player.

I know you’re not alone in that, I enjoy both wvw and pve myself, but there are a lot of players that are only going to be in wvw for however long it takes them to finish these living story achievements. The same players that showed up at the start of season one, then were nowhere to be found after they got their points, or at least enough to qualify for the chest key. I know there are a lot in that group, and judging from the player surge they caused on my server I’d guess that group is larger than the one you and I are in.

Nabrok.9023:

Do you really think the kind of player who strives to get every single achievement point is going to give up 3/day by not doing the WvW dailies?

Don’t fool yourself, those players are in WvW every single day.

It’s not that difficult to spend the majority of your time in WvW and still get every daily category.

And the same thing applies to that situation, does it not? How many of them are in there only to not be left behind in achievement points, and would otherwise never enter wvw? Whether it is for a one-time living story achievement or for recurring dailies, it’s not creating interest in actually participating in wvw. It’s the line between ‘I want to do this’ and ‘I need to do this if I want more points’ that I’m referring to.

If there were no daily achievements points for them in wvw, would they still be in there every day? I’d guess the number of players that gained some actual interest in wvw due to being in there for dailies is far less than the number that would prefer to never have to do wvw for daily points.

Any part of the game is much better off if it’s filled with players that want to participate and actually enjoy that aspect of the game. A player that is in only wvw to capture a camp for their daily doesn’t want to fight me, and I’d rather be fighting someone that has enough real interest in wvw/pvp to be knowledgeable enough to put up a fight.

Andrew Clear.1750:

mrstealth.6701:

lordkrall.7241:

3: It gets more people into WvW and might end up with increased participation overall.

People that don’t want to do wvw/pvp aren’t going to get into it just because they sprinkle in a little pve content. No matter how much pve you cram into it, there are still people there want want to, and will, kill them. If they don’t want to fight other players, they aren’t going to enter wvw unless you put a pile of free precursors in the middle of the map.

I do hope that this means the end of living story on the other 4 wvw maps, because that does remove the negative side to pve/LS content in wvw. But it is still pointless and will bring very few new players into wvw, and just works to keep wvw players away from the new map because they don’t want to deal with LS content. If anything, there will simply be less people bothering to do the living story content because of where it is.

And I just had a friend tell me this as I was typing it. She won’t be doing any of the next living story content that takes place in wvw, because she has no interest in wvw. So there is one player will still be avoiding wvw, and is now avoiding LS content as well.

Hmm, seems some people really have short memories. Don’t you remember the flood of PvE people into WvW in the beginning of the season? PvE people will go anywhere to get their achievements.

Baiting them in with achievements isn’t creating interest/desire to do wvw. The segment of pve player that feel the need to have every possible achievement point will go there for however long it takes them to get those points. But they still aren’t going to be actually getting into wvw. They don’t want to be there, they just want achievement points and many of them feel “forced” into wvw to keep up.

They don’t want to be in wvw, and quite frankly, I don’t want to be playing along side people that don’t want to be there. It does nothing but hurt both groups of players.

I’m in the group of players that enjoys both wvw and pve, but I don’t want to see the two mashed together.

SpehssMehreen.5897:

Coldtart.4785:

style.6173:

If they let us kill people in the mists map while they are doing their LS, this will be the best move ever.

If I wanted faceroll easy kills that spit out free loot I would be playing PvE. Bringing PvE’rs to WvW can only decrease the quality of the fights.

Alot of Big talk coming from this guy, elitism is bad for the game

It might be a (tiny)bit elitist, but he/she has a point. Trying to attract achievement hunters that have no interest in wvw at all does not help anything. That is the only pve group they are going to draw in with this, and they are going to be there only for their achievement points. No desire to learn about player vs player combat, no desire to adapt their builds for more viable wvw/pvp use, and no desire to actually participate in wvw/pvp aside from getting achievement points.

At least with the season 1 achievements, these players were going along with wvw players and zergs, all working toward the same objectives. Living story achievements in wvw just puts them on the map for the sake of trying to populate it. If these players are going to be off on their own in LS areas, they are just easy loot bags.

lordkrall.7241:

3: It gets more people into WvW and might end up with increased participation overall.

People that don’t want to do wvw/pvp aren’t going to get into it just because they sprinkle in a little pve content. No matter how much pve you cram into it, there are still people there want want to, and will, kill them. If they don’t want to fight other players, they aren’t going to enter wvw unless you put a pile of free precursors in the middle of the map.

I do hope that this means the end of living story on the other 4 wvw maps, because that does remove the negative side to pve/LS content in wvw. But it is still pointless and will bring very few new players into wvw, and just works to keep wvw players away from the new map because they don’t want to deal with LS content. If anything, there will simply be less people bothering to do the living story content because of where it is.

And I just had a friend tell me this as I was typing it. She won’t be doing any of the next living story content that takes place in wvw, because she has no interest in wvw. So there is one player will still be avoiding wvw, and is now avoiding LS content as well.

Yak’s Bend just killed it.

killcannon.2576:

Curious as to what has led you to believe that catering to as many groups as possible is a good thing?

It’s good for the company business-wise, and good for the game community, to attract and keep as many players as possible. The more types of players you cater to, the larger your potential playerbase. There are, of course, limitations to this. With a limited amount of time to push updates and a limited number of devs able to work on them, you can’t cater to every imaginable group without spreading your efforts too thinly to produce high quality content. It’s a balancing act of trying to please as many different groups as possible with your limited resources.

Vayne.8563:

Hyperbole or not, you must have missed the post where I suggested that trying to cater to multiple groups wasn’t necessarily the wrong thing to do. I’m not so sure that there’s enough of any one group to keep any triple A MMO running.

Catering to as many groups as possible is the right thing to do, but there are some points at which a side needs to be taken instead of trying to partly satisfy both sides. There are plenty of aspects of the game that cater to some types of players, while having little or no impact on other types of players. Anet should be focusing on ways to cater to certain groups, without making changes that drive other groups away.

I think Fractals is a good example of this. It was a good addition for players that enjoy dungeons, as well as those that wanted more challenging content, and content that offered increasing levels of difficulty. The only real impact on someone that doesn’t like doing Fractals is having a considerably longer method of getting ascended rings. I would like to see a more viable non-Fractals way to get rings, but it’s not a major issue. That is also more of an issue with the reward system, not with Fractals themselves.

CrossedHorse.4261:

Oh, I absolutely agree that taking just one portion of the gaming community would be a problem and most likely cause them more problems with people leaving than they have now. However, they have, imo, spread themselves too thin in trying to please almost everyone.

This and trying to make a compromise between playstyles that don’t really have room for a compromise. The idea of constant vertical progression is probably one of the best examples. You either have to go all-in to have enough progression, at a fast enough pace, to keep the progression-focused crowd interested. On the other side, any constant/long-term vertical progression will drive players away.

Anet tried to reach a mid-ground with Ascended gear, but ended up at a point where quite a few left, or at least had a much altered opinion of the game, and another group stayed long enough to get their gear, then still got bored and left. The pace of the gear release might have kept some of them coming back, but only long enough to get the latest pieces of gear. If they decide to continue with gear progression, they might still retain some of that group, but at the lost of losing even more of the other.

Anet would possibly have kept more players in the long run had they not added ascended gear. It would have cost them one group, but the other would have been much more satisfied then either group is now. And more satisfied players are going to be more willing to spend their cash in the gem store. Most players in the mid-ground between those two groups likely don’t care either way, and will happily go on with or without ascended gear.