Guild Wars 2

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

If new characters got the new hairstyles at creation then people would complain about how their older characters have to purchase them

It’s not really much different than adding new armor stats or styles, the former of which happened only a few weeks ago. I know a good number of people wanted the dire stat combo, but had to settle for other options because it didn’t exist. New characters get that as an option before they spent money (a lot more money than a makeover/hairstyle, too) on a less desirable stat. I don’t think there were a large amount of complaints from players that could now replace their existing gear with a better/more suitable stat.

somsom.5201:

Did you honestly expect free styles for new characters?

Considering that a new character already costs me $10 (or over 40g), yeah, I do.

phys.7689:

You will be charged no matter how you slice it, either subscriptions, cash shop, or new boxes. Instead of discussing how they shouldnt charge money for anything, discuss how they can get money in a way you find more palatable. Also recognize, the high volume sales on desirable items gives money to the whole entire game, to pay for the things they are not charging for.

There are plenty of items in the gemstore that are perfectly fine. Some of us find issue with this particular item, but that doesn’t mean we should have to suggest other items for the gemstore. There are already plenty of them.

Do you think if a year after i drew a picture, someone wanted me to go back and create a new hairstyle, i would do it for free?
Ha ha, no.

If you care about your charachter so much, you should be willing to pay something to alter its appearance.

I’m willing to do so, and I have bought makeover kits in before. I’m sure there are plenty of people with existing characters that are paying to get these new styles on them. So why not offer them with the standard character creation? I already have to pay $10 a pop if I want to make a new character, and now they want even more money for character appearance options.

Charging for hairstyles on new characters is essentially double-dipping on character slots.

It’s a shame this is a gemstore item because Anet went to some effort before release to explain why it was against their game design to just allow traits to be altered in the middle of a dungeon, etc. Traits were supposed to be a form of semi-permanent character development.

However, that is now totally thrown out when they come up with a way to make money off of it.

Anet themselves made big deal about how important our characters and their appearance are to us players. To go and lock certain aspects of that behind a cash barrier is a slap in the face to their own supposed ideals and principles.

This is the kind of stunt I expect from a free to play game, not title I had to pay an AAA price for.

Sanduskel.1850:

Jinks.2057:

mrstealth.6701:

ArchonWing.9480:

Except they are part of the competition. Just not in the way people demand…

snip

It’s time to stop posting b/c its well documented, even in the apology, that WvW is to played how each individual wants to play it.

All you are doing is making yourself look bad and misrepresenting your server.

Enough.

So you are a mod now?

I think he just didn’t like what I had to say, and chose a poor way to express that.

As for the apology post, all he did was refer to wvw as a “free-for-all battle”, which is fairly generic yet accurate description of the wvw game mode as it was designed. It’s too general of a statement to start picking it apart the semantics of what it implies is allowed.

The overall message was condemning any action that is disruptive of others’ gameplay. I believe that in some circumstances, gvgs can have a negative impact other’s gameplay, as that is something I have experienced myself. I’m in no way saying that gvgs should stop happening, because they are something that many people enjoy. What I am saying is that gvg matches should be handled in manner that minimizes their impact on everyone else in wvw.

Make sure others are aware of what is going on, so that queue issues can be prevented instead of becoming a problem mid-battle. There is a good chance that either the wvw fight or the gvg can be moved to another map to avoid problems. Do keep in mind that not every non-hardcore/gvg guild group in wvw is a karma train that can simply move to another map. There are strategies and tactics involved, and sometimes that requires a force’s presence on a particular map.

I’m not sure how many times I have to say it, but we can all co-exist on in wvw with just a little cooperation and communication. Insisting that gvg never interferes or that wvw/PPT is somehow inferior or less important does nothing but create resentment and prevent the necessary cooperation from happening.

Asudementio.8526:

But not everyone agrees that he was wrong. And it isn’t a rare practice for a higher up to do the PR when someone under them screws up.

And will you agree that the players were in the wrong cause they obviously were.

This is an incident where both sides were definitely wrong.

And, yeah, when an employee does something like this, it is usually another representative that steps up to handle any interaction with the public/customers afterward. The employee usually gets dealt with internally, and often kept out of the public eye to prevent any futher incidents.

Given the amount of toxicity being tossed around, I think it’s best that this person stay clear of it.

edit:
I’ll put it this way…
Let’s say a relative that lives with you causes a major public scene by standing in the street blocking traffic, and screaming at people. This ends up being enough of an incident to be mentioned on the local news. When they send a reporter to your house looking for more information, or maybe an interview, who are you sending out to talk to them? I’m guessing it’s probably not the person that caused the scene, because you don’t want him making himself or your family look any worse than he already has.

morrolan.9608:

mrstealth.6701:

It’s not about whether or not it effects the end result of the matchup, but rather the effect on the players in wvw at that time. Having your guildmates being locked out of the map and being disadvantaged versus another server because of a gvg is a negative and souring experience.

If you choose to react like that when there are 3 other maps to choose from then its your problem not the guilds GvGing.

mrstealth.6701:

They aren’t “the server”, when they are doing a gvg they are acting as “their guild”
The only times I’ve even been aware of a gvg going on is when it was interfering with wvw gameplay. So I’m certainly not seeing any interaction, aside from the negative impact.

Hmm yet when I watch a GvG I’m rooting for the guild from my server.

We were already on the map and setting up siege to attack a keep. We had a group on the map that we felt we was enough to get started while the stragglers were still changing map. It was a short run from spawn to where we were, so starting at that time shouldn’t have been an issue. No one realized the situation till we saw the size of the group we had when people starting mentioning that the map was queued.

There was no way for us to know there was a gvg happening on the map that was going to have such an impact on our numbers. Our presence was clear, as there was at least one commander with us, as well as activity in map and team chats.

I’d probably be rooting for a gvg team from my server, too. If I had any idea those were going on, and they were being carried out in a manner considerate to everyone else on the map. It’s not something I have a big interest in, but I wouldn’t mind spectating during a calm and quiet time in the wvw matchup. The action does die down in some matchups, which is a good time to have a gvg.

ArchonWing.9480:

The part of the competition of “our server is better than yours”.

They aren’t “the server”, when they are doing a gvg they are acting as “their guild”
The only times I’ve even been aware of a gvg going on is when it was interfering with wvw gameplay. So I’m certainly not seeing any interaction, aside from the negative impact.

They aren’t representing their server any more than am representing my server or my guild by posting here. Just like the dev that sparked this thread was presenting his own opinion, not his companies. Even though he made the poor choice of flashing his Anet tag while doing so. That Anet tag is somewhat of a mark of authority, our guild tags are not.

ArchonWing.9480:

Except they are part of the competition. Just not in the way people demand…

I don’t see how a gvg can be considered part of the wvw competition. The only benefit to the server are points from finishes, if they have a bloodlust buff. If matchups consisted of only two servers, they would be occupying an equal number of enemies to offset their absence from wvw, but there are 3 servers per matchup.

They are ‘hiding’ in a generally deserted part of the map, and participating in wvw no more than the players that have duels or “fight club” at the windmill. The location chosen for this just shows that the intent is to avoid wvw, while using the wvw map for a completely separate gametype.

Others that are in wvw just for a good fight do so while still participating in wvw. Roamers take out dolyaks and players carrying supply, serve as a commander’s eyes on the field, and help secure our own supplies. You don’t have to be doing something that directly causes PPT gains to be participating in wvw.

ArchonWing.9480:

This is of course, besides the point. My point is that I’m going to do whatever I want regardless of what people think how something should be played even if I allegedly take up a spot that of course would be taken by someone who’s going to change the outcome of the matchup. It won’t.

It’s not about whether or not it effects the end result of the matchup, but rather the effect on the players in wvw at that time. Having your guildmates being locked out of the map and being disadvantaged versus another server because of a gvg is a negative and souring experience.

“Play your way” and “do whatever you want” are not the same thing. I doubt you will find many (if any at all) games with a competition between number limited teams where doing “whatever you want” is considered acceptable.

Play your character/build how you want, but if you’re going to join a game mode that was designed to be host to a competition you are generally expected to spend your time there participating in that competition. If you can do other activities there without causing any interference with that competition, then do so. But if your activities do start interfering, you need a find another time or place for them.

ArchonWing.9480:

Conscience lol. By that logic, I shouldn’t even be going to Sparkfly fen to gather, because people would be knocked into overflow. What makes them more important than me?

As bad and poorly thought out as the requirements for the new Teq fight are, Sparkfly is still just another pve zone, not a map built for a team vs team (vs team) game type. If Sparkfly is full, you’ll get put into an overflow, where the same events will happen. Events will scale to accommodate the number of players (Teq does need some work on this, though), your opponents in wvw do not.

K U T M.4539:

We have our own forum, our own little naughty step!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/events

And yeah, pvp definitely allows you to customize and fine tune your builds as much as wvw does, right?

That limitation in spvp just wrecks any interest I would have in it. I understand why a lot of you don’t want any official gvg to use the spvp format.

I think the best think that could happen right now is for an instance/separate map to be added to wvw borderlands. A simple arena with room for spectators. It’s a win/win/win situation. It gives a better place for gvg, eliminates any issues with wvw, and is the easiest to add. The gvg community seems to be doing a pretty good job of managing itself, so that seems like a decent solution till an official gametype could be developed.

Sanduskel.1850:

Player Character.9467:

Sanduskel.1850:

Player Character.9467:

Sanduskel.1850:

Player Character.9467:

Sanduskel.1850:

I try to leave the gvg crowd be, but honestly many come off as elitist. Secondly, tonight there was a huge gvg event in tc bl, where we were fighting to save our keep. We could not get help in the bl, and when we asked for help to save our keep we were told to leave the bl. This is way too early in the match to be throwing the match.

No it isn’t, ur matched to BG and SoR. The match was thrown when it was made, don’t lie to yourself. Your highest tick not including the first couple hours was what? a 240?

Did I say which server I call home? Lol you know what they say abou ASSumptions.

Uh, you did when you referred to anything in TC BL as YOURS?

Our keep. As in we owned the keep, lol. reading is fundamental.

You sound like the kind of guy who refers to them as fishing camp, bay, that north keep, redbriar, etc. Nobody can read what you say until you speak the language.

Actually, I use compass directions. Thanks so much though.

We usually refer to keeps by their common name. Hills, Bay and Garri(son). Camps are normally compass direction.

And “our” keeps are the ones on our home BL. “Their” keeps are the ones on enemy BLs, even if we happen to be holding one of them.

Jamais vu.5284:

ArchonWing.9480:

So umm, if I go into wvw to finish my gathering daily, am I a terrible person for not “participating in the match in good faith” and should be prohibited from doing so?

Yep. According to people like Riondron or Sir Arthur.8905, you should be banned from every regular activity taking place in WvW apart from siegeing and defending castles. Even open-field battles are frowned upon by the new generation of WvW purists, because they at best have the same effect points wise as a GvG. Going by this new doctrine you are to avoid any fights (or like mentioned any other activities) that don’t take place in the context of capturing an objective.

I would agree that wvw isn’t really the right place to go if you’re only looking to gather. That can be done on any pve map, without occupying a slot in a competitive game mode. The idea behind the nodes being in wvw is to give wvw’ers the chance to get crafting materials within their preferred game mode.

Open field fights are just something that will happen “naturally” in a gametype like wvw. It doesn’t matter if you stop an enemy force at the gate of your keep or in the open between the keep and a supply camp. You’ve halted their progress, likely scattered them a bit, and stopped or delayed their attempt to take your keep. Maybe they’ll give up, or maybe they’ll regroup and come back. Either way, you’ll hold that keep for a bit longer and get more points from it.

Burnfall.9573:

mordran.4750:

courin.2314:

I’m disappointed to see how vicious some people are being.

How in the world can you defend what this guy did. He was standing in the middle of the two opposing guilds. It has been clear that this is a GvG, no way to misinterpret the situation. He was asked to leave, he did not. One of the guilds chased him off a bit but even did not kill him, he returned and interfered again. After that the Raidlead started to call him Names and then the Dev started to show his Tag. But not to calm things down, he just wanted to show who has the bigger kitten and to troll people. To be honest i am surprised how nice the community was to this guy under the given circumstances, in europe when such things happen these motherkitteners will get killed over and over until they leave when they can not behave themselfes. Maybe this guy is the nicest person in the world but on that special occasion he acted exactly like the raidlead called him.

How in the world can you justify your Malicious Hatred treatments to this guy after what he Regrettfuly did?

“but on that special occasion he acted exactly like the raidlead called him”

In other word as the saying goes, “a tooth for a tooth” yet Never Once he exhibited Hate or Violence.

I wouldn’t defend how the dev acted while flashing his Anet tag around, but there is no justification or defense for the gvg participants actions either. Their behavior was just as bad as the dev’s, if not worse. I don’t care what is going on, you just don’t talk to people like that.

The excuse that “gamers talk to each like that” is ridiculous. The language used there might be acceptable in a light-hearted situation among people that are familiar with each other, but this incident was clearly not a situation like that.

Korbaal.6402:

You say- when people who are farming champions absolutely lose their minds that someone has DARED to kill a champion when NOT on the train. Do they consider that not everyone wants to play that way?

Well that’s exactly how some people feel about WvWvW we DARE to play the way we want to play and we get an Anet employee throwing his tag around like a police badge does HE consider that not everyone wants to play the way HE wants us to?

Read through your posts and consider your words carefully or you might get accused of being a hypocrite.

Random non-event champions in open world pve are just there for anyone to kill. There is no other purpose to them, nor any game type or game mechanic related to them. Whoever finds them is free to kill them, and there is no excuse for any player to ever harass/yell at/insult/etc another for killing a champ.

WvW is a set gametype, with specific goals and mechanics related to WvW being the dominant features of every map. Those maps exist for a single purpose, to provide a venue in which to play WvW. When someone enters a location in any game that is host to some sort of competitive play, the general expectation is that they will participate in that game mode. That game mode is the entire reason the location even exists.

That being said, there is still no harm done if the location is used in a manner that does not interfere with the official gametype in any way.

luckywaldo.6089:

However, I frequently play outnumbered when my server is at the bottom of an uneven matchup, because the fairweather players who filled up queues on easy matchups are now nowhere to be found.

Now who is the greater detriment to a server’s WvW? Ultimately both are doing the same thing, focusing on their interest of fun, not necessarily having any malicious intent toward anyone else, but obviously ignoring the interests of everyone else.

Are GvG players the villains on the server simply because they thought outside the box a little, and found a way to have fun without ANet telling them they were allowed to have fun that way?

I think it’s safe to say that fairweather players are an issue on just about every server, that’s just how people are. They do cause a population shift during more difficult and unbalanced matchups which makes the matchup even more imbalanced, but they aren’t in a wvw map taking up a player slot while intentionally not participating in wvw. Just because the fairweather players are gone for a week doesn’t mean all queues are gone.

Xcom.1926:

There are significantly bigger problems in WvW that effect other players experience, least of which are players dueling each other. The fact that each match-up is a blow out in all tiers except 1 (maybe 2) is probably the biggest issue. Having played on ET for almost a year I can tell you that from personal experience, it was so bad that I just stopped queuing for WvW.

I have to agree that the current situation with wvw is not a good one, and you probably won’t find many that would consider it to be without major problems.

Regardless, what you said is a game design issue not a player issue. Players should be able to do what they are doing. ANet should never tell players they shouldn’t be doing what they are doing as long as it is not against ToS. Because if they do, it puts them in a very sticky situation.

It’s not viable to design a game where everything a player can do should be considered acceptable. Just look at the update history we’ve had so far. Nothing in the ToS forbids intentionally not completing or failing a dynamic/meta event, but Anet has made their stance on that rather clear. There have been several instances of events being farmed instead of completed that lead to those events being altered in way to make that impossible or deter it. The reasons for this being that the content was not being played as intended, and that these farmers were preventing others from finishing they event, or harassing them for doing so.

Xcom.1926:

In an MMO you should play how you would like to play as long as you are not going against the ToS. If I just wanted to chain jumping puzzles in WvW I should be able to do that. If I want chain duel other players I should be able to do that. If I want to just kill PvE mobs over and over again, I should be able to do that. The company shouldn’t be telling me “Hey you can’t just kill NPC mobs here you need to kill other players”. If it gets to that point, they failed in designing the game properly. And they need to take steps to fix it.

I do generally agree with that assessment, but there are more limits than just the ToS. Just because something isn’t explicitly forbidden by the ToS, does not mean it’s right or acceptable to do. This is especially true in situations where your actions can impact other players.

If you want to level by grinding mobs, you aren’t really effecting anyone else. If you decide to complete a dungeon using a certain tactic, you are only effecting your party, a group of people that have already chosen to play with you specifically.

There isn’t any part of the ToS that tells me I can’t go to Sparkfly Fen, take one of the turrets at the Tequatl fight, and use it to do nothing but kill the mobs that spawn around that area. However, I don’t think you’ll find anyone that could consider that right or ok to do. It’s not forbidden by the ToS, but it certainly has a considerable negative impact on everyone else there.

Sometimes you just have to play something as it was designed, or at least make some effort to avoid interfering with those that are.

Asquared.4091:

I’m sorry, but out of the 168 hours of match time, that ~1/2 – 1 hour the GvG may have lasted was a decisive turning point? Not to mention the 2 other borderlands + EB that must have had objectives to take.

Had we known beforehand that there was a gvg happening on the map, we would likely have moved elsewhere. I’m fairly certain it wasn’t on our own borderland, so there was possbibly somewhere else we could have gone. But by the time we were aware of the queue issue, we had already taken the supply camp and were setting up siege.

It’s not so much a reason for gvg to not happen, but to have more communication as to what is going on. When a commander that commonly leads larger groups shows up on the map, it would be nice if they were informed of any possible issues. I know the gvg teams are likely occupied and unable to type a message in chat, but others that are not participating or just observing could do that.

As I’ve said before, with cooperation and communication, a lot of the issues that arise from gvg can be avoided or prevented. I know of instances where gvg matches have moved to avoid problems like this, but that does work both ways. A zerg can just as easily shift maps if there are objectives to be taken elsewhere.

Warthog.6870:

mrstealth.6701:

The last time I ran into queue issues caused by a gvg match, we were trying to take a well defended Bay keep. A significant portion of our players were locked out of the map, and the defenders were able to easily outnumber what should have a been a full map queue.

I know we weren’t queued against you when you were crying about the horrible mag zerg in August – how long ago was that incident?

I have no idea what you’re referring to, but I don’t think it’s related. This did happen in the last month or two, I’m thinking it was maybe Dragonbrand. I’m not really sure which server it was, though.

We had a large force, full queue or very near it. When we moved to a different map, quite a few were unable to follow because of a queue. I don’t know if the defenders had a full queue or not, but we were hitting the player limit despite clearly having fewer players with us. They definitely had more than we did, despite the game telling us we were at the limit, with no other apparent forces on the map. It was right afterwards that we found out about the gvg that was happening on that map.

There was a bit of confusion when people started reporting the queue, because we knew the number we had with us wasn’t enough to cause it.

Tricare.2946:

Why are you trying to control the way they play WvW ? They are still fighting the other world, just a little differently.

This is really where my issue with gvg is. I don’t consider gvg as playing wvw, but rather as intentionally avoiding it. It’s true that you are fighting a guild from another world, but that fight doesn’t have any real relation to wvw, aside from happening on a wvw map.

The self-balancing factor of occupying an equal sized enemy force is negated by the existence of the third server in wvw. That’s the issue that I ran into with gvg and queues. Server A and server B are having a gvg, while wvw’ers from server A are trying to take a keep held by server C. Server A was outnumbered by Server C because our players couldn’t enter the map.

Tricare.2946:

Even if a map is queued, you zergs just dodge each other and take crap that’s undefended. That’s how this game is boring and works.

Who are you to assume how I play in wvw?

I don’t do wvw to zerg undefended keeps. My favorite things are taking well defended keeps and defending keeps from capable enemy force. This can involve single large forces, or multiple smaller forces spread around the map focused on different objectives. My preference is generally the latter.

The last time I ran into queue issues caused by a gvg match, we were trying to take a well defended Bay keep. A significant portion of our players were locked out of the map, and the defenders were able to easily outnumber what should have a been a full map queue.

That is my firm ground, which I will happily stand on.

Again, who are you to dictate how I play in WvW? GvG is part of wvw as much as jumping puzzles are. deal with it.

I do agree that jump puzzles offer nothing to wvw, and don’t really have a place in it, but they do have the advantage of being included in the design of wvw. gvg is a makeshift deathmatch created by players. The makeshift content created by players takes a back seat to the intended game mode that was implemented. Especially when that player-created game mode has the ability to interfere with the as-designed and intended gameplay.

Tricare.2946:

mrstealth.6701:

See you will never have ground to stand on, because there are no balanced matches.

The score is not only factor in this. Even in an unbalanced matchup, there are points at which balance exists. Like when you and another team both have a full queue on a map. And that can be thrown back into unbalance if half of your players are occupied with a gvg.

And even if it is unbalanced, why does that matter? People being blocked from entering because of a gvg are still being blocked because of people not participating in wvw. I’d rather be in wvw in an unbalanced fight, than stuck in a queue waiting for some gvg match to finish.

Balanced matchups do happen, just not very often with the current mess the matchup system is in.

Tellerion.8102:

Do you even see what your writing? It sounds very much like you want to dictate what other’s should be able to do and not. As long as it doesn’t suit you it obviously has to be forbidden and wrong. The fact that you justify doing exploration, jumping puzzles etc. just clarifies my point.

So this is very much like elitism, since your trying to force people out of WvW, and saying that their not wanted because they don’t cater to your vision of how WvW should be like.

Disgraceful.

While I do not agree with the decision to include wvw objectives as exploration points for map completion, and even more so toward the inclusion of jumping puzzle in wvw, both of these have one distinct point over gvg. They were intentionally included in the design of wvw. Even though I don’t agree with it myself, it does grant it some validity.

The majority of vistas and PoIs are inside structures, so they aren’t really an issue. The out of the way skillpoints and jump puzzles are the items that don’t really fit in and can detract from wvw. Although the impact of map explorers is likely less than that of a gvg match filling half of the map player limit.

Tricare.2946:

Ok, now take the time to look at the rest of the picture.

What’s the ppt?

What are the scores at?

What day of the week is it?

All of your arguments, yet again, have no ground to stand on.

The PPT, scores, and time are only relevant to that single gvg match. What about all the matches that happen at other times (even during peak hours), or that happen in a more balanced matchup. That particular gvg might not be causing any problem, but others do. I’ve seen it myself.

I think having myself or those I am playing with kept out of a map because of a gvg match is quite firm ground to stand on.

I’m not saying this always happens, or that gvgs are always causing problems. But trying to act like these things don’t happen is ridiculous, because it does happen.

I was just taking another look at the video, and paid attention to the number of spectators. Just counting the ones from SBI, there are over 30. The gvg team had 15. That’s about half of the map’s player limit for the team being taken up, with 30+ just sitting around watching.

I’m definitely impressed with the amount of player interest this creates, and do respect what the gvg community has created. But it’s absurd to me that so many are willing to defend this as having no negative impact, when I’m seeing half of a map’s limit being filled up by it.

Tricare.2946:

Again, people that are GvG’ing are not taking any one else’s spot, they got in WvW and are playing the way they want to play.

I’m still amazed at how many don’t see any problem with this logic. It’s wvw, and it should be completely clear that it’s for wvw. Although I do think that Anet needs to clean up the inappropriate mess of exploration points and jump puzzles being in it.

From a gameplay perspective, a gvg player is comparable to someone that joins an spvp match to do nothing but run around the map, or maybe practice dodge-jumping to reach certain spots. Or that guy in [any FPS game] that steals the helicopter/jet/tank/etc just to take a non-combat joyride around the map. None of these people directly hurt their respective teams, but they are indirectly harming them by counting against the player limit.

The Hammer.5960:

Have you really never been flamed in a game before? If someone can’t keep their cool during a bit of flaming then what are they doing working in the games industry?

I’d say the dev kept his cool, aside from the terrible decision to display that tag. That’s bad enough on it’s own, but he didn’t say anything inappropriate or insulting.

The gvg leader, however, did not. He pretty much immediately resorted to foul language and insults when things didn’t go his way. The dev was an instigator, but that leader sure did feed the troll.

felivear.1536:

I’m not going to lie, I’m very surprised it came from him (the anet dev). I’ve had nothing but great interactions with him since I’ve been playing this game (and for all asking, he’s definitely not a tester, he is an actual dev). I’m hoping what happened is that he was there just watching in the middle and the leader (that Star Instigator) called him an F Rtard, I’m pretty sure that probably caused his reaction. What if that was a normal, non-WvW player trying it out, not understanding your GvG, then you start whispering someone calling them an effing kitten .

I don’t think what he did was right, because you must remain professional at all times, but I also hope you get something for your language and insult.

You might be right. His comment about “violating his game mode” shows that he was aware of what was going on around him, but that was after the gvg leader had insulted him. It’s no excuse for putting up the Anet tag to continue, but I don’t think it would have escalated to that point without the verbal assault.

Both sides of this were wrong in their own way, and both deserve reprimand of some sort.

The Hammer.5960:

Just a heads up bro, you’re making yourself look like a bit of an idiot.

I’m not sure at what point asking the where he got his detailed info became me being an idiot.

If that’s me being trolled, then he did a pretty bad job of trolling me.

I’m sure I’m not the only one with experience in working in the games industry here. If you, as a player, think that an employee can act like that towards a games community and get away with it, you’re very wrong. Professionals just cannot act like that. Hence the Dev post in this thread.

The hordes of sycophants that rush to the defence of anything a Dev says are not unique to this game – you get them everywhere – but you don’t do the games in question any favours.

I definitely don’t think his actions should go unpunished. When displaying that tag, he is a representative of Anet and should act accordingly. He is entitled to his opinions and should be free to express them, within the rules of the game, but he has no right to act as a representative of his employer while doing so.

What he did was rude and inconsiderate, but not really wrong. The fact that he did it while displaying his Anet logo was wrong.

Tellerion.8102:

I never said I expected non-interference while I GvG, I however appreciate the common decency the majority seems to show, in game, by not doing so.

And all I expect is the same from gvg’ers, by taking simple measures to minimize/eliminate the impact their gametype can have on the gametype it exists within.

Empyre.2531:

He’s not on the wvw team yes, but he’s a lead in an uberly important part of the game’s development and even more implementation.

Is this information buried somewhere in the previous 20+ pages of this thread? There is only one dev response, and it makes no reference to this person’s actual position at Anet.

Were you not just stating that Anet should release this person’s name? You seem to be claiming that you already know who it was.

Tellerion.8102:

It is another aspect though, created by the players themselves. In my opinion GvG’s belongs in WvW, because the whole setup is based on WvW, just the spectators, surrounding the area, gives a different feel to it. Ideally thought there would be guild halls for each guild, where these could battle against one another, but at current time WvW is the only reasonable places these guilds can face off each-other.

Tellerion.8102:

You should also not be denying others from enjoying themselves, regardless of how “unrelated” you think their purposes are.

It’s not related to wvw at all, other than taking place on the same maps. And that only happens because there is no other place in the game where it’s possible. It has absolutely nothing to do with wvw.

Tellerion.8102:

You simply don’t have the monopoly or authority to decide whats right and wrong here. While I understand where your going with this you also have to try and understand that you cannot dictate how others are playing the game, as we are all equal here.

By the same right, gvg’ers on a queued map have no right to be denying wvw’ers access to that map. Yet that is exactly what they are doing. You are expecting non-interference from the same people you are interfering with.

A gvg can happen on any map, the location doesn’t really matter at all. For wvw, the map we’re on is important. If a map we hold is being attacked, that’s where we need to be. Being denied access to that map because of a gvg (that could be on another map, with no negative effect to the gvg’ers) puts the gvg’ers in the wrong.

Empyre.2531:

That limitation is what is wrong in your argument. Gvg is on equal level with wvw as it’s not violating any rule set by Anet. So basically if you harass a gvg that is, in your opinion interfering with wvw as they e.g. dont defend your keep, you are the only one doing wrong.

By the same standard, there is no rule saying I can’t stand in the middle of the field near the windill, or kill anyone I find there.

wvw and gvg can co-exist, but it requires mutual respect. gvg’ers can’t reasonably expect non-interference while they are interfering themselves. While I would prefer gvg’ers to postpone their match and assist if requested, continuing their match is not a problem if there is no queue. If their presence is creating a queue issue, then they need to move. At that point they are certainly interfering with wvw.

Blix.8021:

When was the last time yaks bend had a full queue on every map? Last october? When does gvg ever interfere with you?

Queues are pretty common on the weekends. It wasn’t long ago that I saw a queue on every map. Not that it requires every map to be queued for there to be a problem. Home borderland queues would be the biggest problem.

And I have actually seen a few instances in the past month or so where gvg matches have created queue issues. Thankfully in at least one incident, the gvg was moved to another map.

Empyre.2531:

You better not interfere with my fun when I gvg.

I would have no reason or desire to interfere with a gvg that isn’t causing any issues for wvw’ers.

Empyre.2531:

ANet should reveal the name of that lead which was harassing the innocent players tbh. Would shed further light on how they think about wvw/gvg internally.

That would be about the worst thing they could possibly do. Gaming communities in general have proved again and again that they cannot act with any decency when given the chance to personally attack a dev that has offended them in some way. Releasing this person’s name would likely result in a social media harassment campaign.

And it does nothing to “shed light on” the company’s opinion of gvg. The company’s overall stance on it is the product of the accumulated beliefs of everyone on the wvw and pvp teams. This employee’s actions represent his or her personal opinion. According to Chris Whiteside, the person in question is not even on the wvw team.

Tellerion.8102:

Certain people still seem to feel obligated to point out what other people can and cannot do in WvW. Let me stress once again, that I’ve paid for this game in the same way you have, so am I not allowed to find enjoyment in other aspects of this gametype, that might not necessarily cater towards your vision of what WvW should be like? (As long as it’s within the rules of the game of course)

The most important part is that it’s WvW, not GvG. WvW is in the intended and designed game format, so of course that takes priority. GvG is not “another aspect of this gametype”, it’s a separate player-generated gametype that happens on the same maps.

As you point out, we all paid for the game, so I should not be denied enjoyment from playing wvw because someone else wants to use that map for their own unrelated purpose.

There is a huge difference between saying “you can’t gvg” and “don’t gvg when it will interfere with wvw”
What I am saying is the latter. Have your gvg, but you need to realize that it can, and does in some cases, infringe upon the wvw community.

KOPPER.1458:

There are a good deal in this thread that believe the players were in the right to act that way. I am simply saying that is not the case.

Some of those players definitely deserve a suspension. It doesn’t really matter what the Anet employee did, there is no excuse for them to behave that way. Both sides of this are wrong. The Anet employee was inappropriately representing his/her company in a very unprofessional manor, and the gvg team was blatantly violating the Code of Conduct with their language and insults.

I can’t really say what the dev was actually doing is wrong. Standing in a field isn’t any more ‘wrong’ than using that field for a gvg. Neither side had any more right to be there than the other, and neither were actually participating in wvw. This empoyee’s wrong doing is limited to the inappropriate use of the Anet tag/logo as a (at least how I interpret it) validation of his/her personal opinion.

Empyre.2531:

So why do you care if what they do is a non-factor for the game?

It’s not a factor in the sense that their contribution to wvw does not validate the lack of contribute, and potential interference, gvg represents.

If those gvgers didn’t exist at all, meaning they wouldn’t play gvg nor wvw at all you’d have is more prey for your organised enemy.

You say that as if those players would just not exist if there was no gvg. Being a gvg guild isn’t some prerequisite for being organized in wvw, gvg is a subset of that if anything.

Sirendor.1394:

If those 1k leave the game, that means no hardcore WvW guilds left, so only pug blobs. Not a nice thought and extremely boring.

gvg’ers are not the only hardcore wvw’ers. That type of thinking is precisely the problem I’ve been pointing out.

Tellerion.8102:

It qualifies as elitism for the simple fact that you would be telling others to leave the map because their not contributing as much as they should, in your eyes, towards the ppt-score. It’s exactly like telling people doing their dailies, jumping puzzles etc. in WvW, to get the hell out, because they sure as hell ain’t contributing towards the ppt-score either.

Aside from the stomp points if they have a bloodlust buff, they aren’t contributing anything at all. At least the daily “Mists” achievements are activities conductive to the wvw match. All I really expect from gvg’ers is some effort to make sure you’re not interfering or having any negative impact on the wvw match. If the map is queued and we have 25 players (plus spectators) going out of their way to not participate, then there is a serious problem that needs to be fixed.

However, I do agree that jumping puzzles and exploration points should not be in wvw. They don’t serve any purpose for the wvw match, and they can be a huge roadblock for players trying to get world completion. Being stuck the same color for weeks is a huge problem, especially if you’re on the disadvantaged side of the matchup.

Tellerion.8102:

This is exactly the kind of elitism I was talking about. You basically expect others to threat WvW as a job, instead of them enjoying themselves within the rules of the game. Just because your vision of WvW is to play by the ppt score doesn’t necessarily mean I have to follow that vision, as I find much more enjoyment in other aspects of this game-mode.

Now, if I enjoy open-field fights, who are you to tell me that I’m not worthy of taking up a space in WvW to do exactly that? I’ve paid for the game just as much as the next person.

I don’t see how that qualifies as “elitism” at all. Elitism would be expecting you to play perfectly and conquer the whole map. The only expectation here is for you to actually participate in the game. gvg is actively avoiding that.

An open field fight is participating. Killing an enemy zerg is preventing them from capturing something, or at least delaying that.

Killing an opposing team in a gvg…well, they really weren’t heading toward any objectives, you’re not stopping them from doing anything. At best, you are both distracting each other, and neither is doing anything useful for wvw. If both teams were on the field participating, at least one of you would likely do something productive for your server’s score.

Tellerion.8102:

I find it a bit hypocritical that certain people are calling out “GvG’ers” for being elitists and childish, yet they go ahead themselves and try to dictate how other’s are mean’t to be playing the game, and how they are supposed to be having fun.

Perfect example: “If you don’t contribute directly towards the ppt your worthless and should be doing spvp, instead of taking up valuable spaces!”

As far as I’m aware of this is actually a game and not a bloody job, so how about you lot try to realize that there’s different kind of people out there, that enjoys different things. Just because you don’t find enjoyment in it doesn’t make it forbidden or wrong (as long it’s not against any rules).

The gametype itself dictates how you’re supposed to play. If someone enters a wvw map with the clear intent of actively avoiding participation in wvw, there isn’t any real defense of them being in the right.

But there also isn’t any harm done if they are careful and courteous to the gameplay they can potentially be infringing upon. Making sure you aren’t creating queue issues, moving if you are causing problems, or being willing to put your match on hold to participate in wvw if you are needed.

The problem is that many gvg’ers have the attitude and belief that they are more important, and that they have a right to infringe on wvw. That’s the main problem, not gvg itself. gvg should be able to co-exist with wvw, but a lot of people need to get over their attitude and entitlement issues for that to happen.

Empyre.2531:

Funny guy.. you know where the “wvw community” would be without the dedicated guild out there that do gvg?

Those players would most likely still be doing wvw. The fact that many of these gvg’ers also participate in wvw isn’t really a factor.

There’s no room in wvw for gvg, says who? Read the ToS, CoC etc.. the only one who did something wrong was the Anet official by harassing other players. Gvg is not against any rule from Anet, so yes, the only one offended by gvg or doing wrong (ban-worthy behaviour) is you (and everyone else moaning about it or harassing).

Technically, you could apply the ‘match manipulation’ rule to gvg. The text of it says “pvp” not “spvp”, and wvw should qualify as a form of pvp even though it doesn’t follow the spvp format. It’s a bit of a stretch to do so, but if Anet chose to enforce it as such, the rule is there and could very well apply.

As far as wrong-doing in the recent incident, there is just as much, if not more, wrong with the gvg participants’ actions. Almost immediately resorting to insults, name calling, and inappropriate language doesn’t earn them much sympathy. Would they have acted any differently if the person standing in the middle was legitimately unaware of what was going on? They were very quick to assume that he was there to troll them, so I think they would have done the same if it was just an unknowing bystander.

Jinks.2057:

Old footage but it really shines light on why you hate GvG so much

Not seeing what this has to do with gvg at all. Nor do I recall ever saying that I “hate gvg” at any point.

I’m guessing that is a guild that does gvg, but that’s certainly not a gvg happening in the video. It’s an impressive keep defense, though. They did a fine job of it, but it nothing to do with gvg.

I’ve seen similar holdouts from guilds that aren’t gvg guilds, and been part of some myself. I’m sure that gvg is a nice practice for that type of fight, but it’s not a requirement to be good at it.

As much as some gvg’ers would like to think it, you’re not the only good players in the game.

Sirendor.1394:

That place is the unofficial GvG arena, everyone knows that…. nobody really has any business there except for GvG, so people standing there are usually deliberately trying to sabotage the GvG. The simplest solution is just to kill them, sadly that is something the dev made impossible cause he decided to show force tagging up.

His Anet tag doesn’t prevent anyone from killing him. They didn’t kill him because they stopped chasing when he moved closer to the other team. The team was told on voice comms that they were moving to kill the person in the middle, so they could have pursued him further without causing any problems. If he had used any commands/abilities from his dev client, that would only be more reason to punish him more severely for abuse of that power.

And while it’s clear that this Anet employ was well aware of what he was doing, I don’t think that location’s gvg use is something that everyone is aware of. I had heard mention of gvg in-game months ago, but I had no idea it was still happening till I starting reading the wvw section of the forum. Someone that doesn’t read this section, or the forums at all(which is the majority of the playerbase, and even Anet will tell you this), is likely to have no idea that gvg even exists, let alone know where it happens.

In fact, after an incident I mentioned on an earlier page where a wvw zerg unintentionally clashed with a gvg in preparation/progress, some people involved were asking what was going on there. At that time I wasn’t even aware that any gvg guilds existed on my server, or that gvg matches were happening in the tier we were in at the time. There were a few guilds I thought might be into gvg, but I had never heard of it actually happening. I didn’t even think of the players we engaged being one side of a gvg battle till I saw friendly players against the hill behind them that were not in combat.

Centrix.4065:

No guild does only GvG. GvG guild = WvW guild, it’s just that sometimes they go to a remote area of the map to have a balanced fight with an enemy guild for 30 minutes, and then continue with wvw. So for 30 minutes you’re missing, 10-20 players out of 100 or so that can be on the map.

I’m not so sure about that. I assume that the majority are also active wvw guilds, but I’m almost certain that doesn’t apply to all. I’ve seen guilds that I know do gvgs, but don’t seem to have much organized wvw presence outside of that.

There are gvg guilds on YB now that I know are quite active in wvw, both as a guild unit and just running with pugs/other guilds. But I know there have some on YB in the past that didn’t have much presence in wvw.