Guild Wars 2

Galphar.3901:

phys.7689:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

sorudo.9054:

they did ones say that they are planning on releasing the core systems before HoT, this includes specialization and masteries.

I don’t think people care anymore about that. I think they care more about the time it took to fix.

i think people are most concerned with knowing exactly what it is, and giving feedback on it before it becomes set in stone, and they have to wait a year for a revision.

basically they dont want to be stuck with a bad system for a year, like the past has shown us is a possibility when the devs dont get feedback

I wouldn’t say the devs didn’t get any feedback after the 83 page 10+ month old thread we gave them before this 7 page 1 month old thread. It seems more likely that our feedback was ignored.

i mean people want to give feedback on whatever this new system is, BEFORE its released. AND they expect anet to act on that feedback before the system is law.

Bloodstealer.5978:

The white items were also there for transmutation purposes to roll back items from being soulbound to account bound.. remember the yellow and blue crystal shard thingies, but that use has now been negated with transmutation stones.

Now they are, as other have said, just used for players to unlock skills, keep their armour/weapons stats appropriate to level and more likely skins/collection.

TBH tho, they don’t really have any negative effect in the game so not really worth worrying about here.

that was an unintended happening.
I think what they guy is getting at overall, is there is a ton of useless items in the game.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

sorudo.9054:

they did ones say that they are planning on releasing the core systems before HoT, this includes specialization and masteries.

I don’t think people care anymore about that. I think they care more about the time it took to fix.

i think people are most concerned with knowing exactly what it is, and giving feedback on it before it becomes set in stone, and they have to wait a year for a revision.

basically they dont want to be stuck with a bad system for a year, like the past has shown us is a possibility when the devs dont get feedback

tekfan.3179:

Actually, I think you didn’t understand my point.
I’m not saying we need specific roles. I’m not saying we need gear for that. We’ve got all of that. Before taunt was ever mentioned, you could take one of the stat-sets and become pretty much any role that befits the usual trinity, was inbetween the three or even had a bit of everything. The game itself allowed for you to become pretty much everything you want and emphasize on the playstile that you liked.
My point is that the game currently is designed to give rewards mostly per dps. You don’t get a reward for anything else.
As you mentioned yourself: Everyone does a bit of everything.
You dropped down a reflective wall and saved a dozen of dps-ing players?
The game doesn’t care.
You just pulled the conditions from a small group of players?
The game doesn’t care.
You dropped one of those weak heals and saved a bunch of players with it?
The game doesn’t care.
Your cc’s kept the mobs away from the squishy, crucial NPC and dps-ing players?
The game doesn’t care.
I think it should. Those are importan things and the only thing the game cares for is dps, even if it comes from a player that is downed half of the time.

Let’s go with an example I encountered multiple times in the last few weeks:
Everyone is zerker and half of the players can’t dodge, because they lack the skill.
Let’s say I’ve got five of them(sadly it’s mostly more) and they all down at the same mob.
Now I have two options:
-Give a kitten about them, I’m self-sufficient, I keep dps-ing and ignore the five players in downed-state. I can dodge so I stay alive.
-I get them up and switch into the water-attunement. I may not dish out any dps, but I keep those five less surivable players on their feet with the healing and together we blast out more dps than I would have done it alone with the fire attunement, resulting in the boss being slain.

What do you think would be smarter? And what would you think would the game reward me with, for being a healing team-player, instead of the fiery solo-zerker?

You mentioned players want trinity-roles so they can be the best in one of the fields “bro”.
To be honest, this statement is so ridiculous I don’t even know what to say. We got that with dps right now. This will always be a thing, even if there is just one role/stat the people care for, instead of three, seven or 201643 roles.

Let me tell you something about my tanky celestial build:
One of it’s core-elements is the combination of “Written in stone”, “Evasive Arcana” and that neat little trait that refills your endurance with signets and arcane spells. Trait-points: 0-0-6-2-6.
With the signet of air I keep mobs from landing that killing-blow on someone while I achive 25% higher speed. I use the earth-signet to bind enemies in AoE’s. With the endurance gained from that, I dodge, switch into the water-attunement and take some conditions from players who need it, right before I switch into fire, drop a fire-field, attune into earth and dodge-roll into the field to blast might around and give an extra-bit with the arcane blast utility.
I see someone downed in a dot-field. With all my hp, refilled endurance and the toughness from earth I get there and pick him up, then heal him again.
All the while I barely get a single hit on me, except for that brief moment the dot-field damaged my while I rezzed the player in there.
When no one is in need of support and the mob is nicely pinned, I switch to fire and dish out some dps. As to expect: It’s a tiny amount compared to a zerker-set.
But in the end I kept a lot of players on their feet and held the boss where he got hit.

The only tunnel vision here is that zerker has to stay the only way to go in GW2.

No one has to be a specific role. No one should have to be bound to the specific role of dps with a bit of everything else.
If someone is good at certain tasks(plural), he/she should be able to fill them, get rewards from the game and players acknowledging it.

are you talking about getting credit for kills?

you basically get credit, if you are in a group, and you tag the mobs, im pretty sure for groups, your credit is based on what the groups damage as long as you tagged the mob.
in a dungeon its a non issue.
btw taging the mob doesnt make you a dps.

ckotoc.5421:

rotten.9753:

nexxe.7081:

Yeah, there’s so much diversity… oh wait. Zerker meta is one role.

Zerker is optional, you don’t have to get this kind of a gear if you have that wish.
You have a choice, with trinity there’s not much of a choice.

zerker isnt optional.Noone will take you to dungeons if u dont play zerk.I dont see any options in game atm.Everyone plays the exact same with the others if they want to play with other ppl and not by themselves.Anet said no holy trinity but also said no expansion too and see what happened.We get full paid expansion and now they add taunt.They want to bring more ppl in game and that will happen only with trinity because ppl want to have the ability to choose a role in game and not play only one that the rest of the players forces you to if you want to be in a group.

the high end dungeon meta has no options, but thats how that will always be, they only believe in what is most effecient, and something is always going to be most effecient.

And even though there is no options, not everyone plays the same. Some classes have different strengths and weaknesses, and cannot do what other classes do, and cant do it in the same ways.

and like i said, zerk is not the meta because its setting your role, its the meta because its basically a button that says do more damage no matter what your role is, doing more damage is always beneficial if your goal is to win fast.
Other games its the same, they only want as much heals, and defense as they need to survive, and then as much dps as possible.

GiraffeRampage.6420:

Lazaar.9123:

GiraffeRampage.6420:

Lazaar.9123:

GiraffeRampage.6420:

Lazaar.9123:

GiraffeRampage.6420:

My healing signet only works when im ooc not during a fight, and i can only click it once and hope im not getting smacked hard whereas a dedicated healer would have me covered so i can get back in the fight. I really dont understand the opinion of not having a healer since this game is a meta build anyway. im not expecting anything but if you feel this game has no need for a healer, youre sadly mistaken. There are some situational fights (lupi for example) where a healer should be a mandatory meta. Why are you defending the no healer argument? State some factual evidence instead of trying to condescend me for playing.

Believe it or not, the holy trinity actually promotes anti-diversity, as it is just another meta, but it is a less accessible meta. Everyone can play all roles is the point of Guild Wars 2 system. And, healing signet? That heals constantly, not just OOC. If you want to have a healer in your party, that’s fine, you can make your own party using the LFG tool to play with people you want (just like everyone else does). Punishing everyone that bought the game because it had no holy trinity, certainly isn’t the way to go about it.

Okay youre clearly misreading my statements, im saying theres a definite purpose having a healing meta not necessarily a holy trinity. Secondly no one is pushing anyone and you dont represent the entire player base as there are alot of people that would enjoy playing a healing based proffession so again not really sure where your source is coming from that its not as accessible. and the healing signet is worthless as you always take more incoming damage than it heals per second.

You know there’s more than one warrior heal, right? It’s your own choice to take a passive heal over an active heal.

Yes im aware theres other active heals that heal you ONE time. Or remove a condition ONE time. Then they go on cooldown for X amount of seconds.

Which is all you need if you have enough skill at the game. If you feel a need to take a healer in your party, go for it, nothing is stopping you from making your own LFG party.

Lol you do realize you can only dodge twice in a row right? You must be super pro if you only need to heal yourself one time throughout an entire boss fight, like world class realm first mmo 5% of the entire player base type of pro. But remove my endurance bar and give me infinite dodge, i’ll have all the skill in the world.

you can only dodge twice in a row, but you have access to other skills like
aegis
distortion
block

few attacks are guaranteed damage in this game,
therefore, being able to move faster, or instantly, is also a defensive move.
leaps (using them for movement away at a times)
swiftness
retreats

various buffs and debuffs change the amount of damage you take
protect
blind
weakness

combine this all with a heal every 10-20 seconds or a heal based on what actions you are taking, and you can in fact mitgate enough dmg that you only need your heal.

It is actually possible for someone to dedicate themselves to providing enough heals, and mitigation, that they can keep you up in conjunction with your own heals, but that would be assuming you werent good enough to avoid damage.

to be clear, the only reason other games need healers is because they design encounters to do guaranteed damage. Even in those other games, once everyone gets good enough, the healer becomes less useful, if all they can do is heal.

Nausiation.1469:

A vast majority of the playerbase complains about the PVE in this game. Most people do not like the fact that everyone has to run zerkers and it’s all about doing as much DPS as possible. A lot of people complain about this to ANET. The only way they could possibly fix this is make tanking/healing viable so that not everything is a dps-fest.

With the introduction of a 6 second taunt on revenant, and class specializations, specifically druid ranger, I’m hoping anet is moving towards the holy trinity. This would open up so many more options for types of gameplay and builds. I know anet started out not wanting a trinity but in reality, you need it in MMOs or everything will just be DPS-fest.

In this video there is a bar under the NPCs health that changes when it is being taunted by the player. Is this a new sort of aggro system? I truly hope so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7zkWJxYqUA

To all that are going to say you don’t want tanks/healers, then you also can’t complain about everyone running zerkers and dps spamming through dungeons, because that’s what we got for not having a trinity.

zerk has nothing to do with roles

gear in this game has almost nothing at all to do with your role

zerk is about deciding how skilled you are that game
Everyone uses zerk because even if they are not skilled, many aspire to be skilled

there is only a couple stats which actually change gameplay
boon duration, condition duration, crit rate sometimes

all other stats are just about deciding how much damage you want to do or how much damage you want to be able to take. Its basically your handicap, thats all it is.

your role comes from the skills and traits you use, and how you plan to interact with your team.

Ayrilana.1396:

Zaruna.3812:

Common sense? In a store I can see what I buy, so atleast on the website it should say when certain content is not included. It’s an MMO of 3-4 years old ? with a price of 40$ and you’re missing quests on a MMO unless you pay more?! Sorry, but i’ve never run into this before on any other.

If a story part is about 15min-1hour content considered a DLC, then that’s horrible. But any other game that had DLC’s, it would atleast show which would be included and which would not be, name and all.

You buy what’s listed on the box. For just about everything, if it’s not listed on the box then it’s not included.

actually, nowadays, usually in MMOs, buying the game will give you everything but the latest expansion, and sometimes even that.

However, the LS style does fit closer with the DLC method.

I think the biggest problem with the system, is its poorly messaged, and poorly packaged. If they actually had a living story season 2 version of the game, people wouldnt be as surprised to find out some stuff is locked out.

Also they should probably sell a package for season 2.

point is, how you sell, package things actually does effect how the consumer approaches/experiences it. And when you are doing something different than whats normal, its best to give people very clear details on what to expect.

or you get a lot of confused, and sometimes angry consumers.

SpyderBite.6274:

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Armor and weapon skins for certain achievements and collections.

This ^^^ 100%

this is kind of a bad reason, the white armor skins could just have easily been blue armor skins.

Jerus.4350:

phys.7689:

too much focus on exclusion, not enough focus on just getting people to the type of group they will be comfortable with.

getting newbs not to join meta parties is not going to increase the overall usership of dungeons.

eh well whatevs, maybe its a lost cause.

I mainly see 2 claims on why people don’t do dungeons.

Either it’s a toxic environment. Or that PVE is dumb and people just exploit it all…

We all know the second one and it’s responses so I’m not even going to touch it.

But the first, exclusivity would allow the "elitsists’ to remove themselves from the general populous, isn’t that a good thing? The only logical reason i can come up with why someone would be opposed to it is that they want to be carried by these elitists, which is a kitten poor excuse and makes them just as toxic if not more so IMO.

As far as trying to bring new people in, we have 2 stickies at the top of this subforum, one for NOOB and one for ARES, both guilds that specialize in teaching people. ARES is more of a traditional guild with the expectation that you rep and be part of the community (great community) where NOOB is more of a list of people to ask for help as I understand it (it’s where I met some of the people who taught me and I now play with).

We’re trying to help, we really are, I don’t think any LFG tool setup could do more really. I learned long ago that if you want to help someone, let them take the first step of initiative and ask. Trying to help those that don’t want it simply frustrates you and kittenes them off.

That’s all not even mentioning the teaching guides and strat fact collecting that some guilds and people like Wethospu do with gw2dungeons and many more.

they already are seperated by and large.
The people who think its toxic, are probably not going to join a berserker meta speedrun path 2 party.
It looks complicated, they sound harsh. The guys joining meta parties, know they may get kicked, they dont mind possible getting insulted, they are basically just trying to get over.

The guy who sneaks into the movie theater doesnt represent the people who think movie theaters suck.

Im not really opposed to the filter choices presented other than them being a waste of resources, and not really helping either side much.

As far as the teaching and the guides, thats cool, but its still inaccessible. 2 guilds across 24? servers.
People are generally only going to reach the point they want to learn after experiencing it as is for awhile.

Think of it like a basketball game you dont take your brother to play basketball and hand him 3 books on the fundamentals of basketball, and make him play with the guys who just got kicked out the big boy court for not being on their level.

first you just give him a ball and some people to play with.
after awhile he asks you to teach him some moves, or for that book, but its only when he is ready and has developed an interest

a lot of people never get to develop that interest.

too much focus on exclusion, not enough focus on just getting people to the type of group they will be comfortable with.

getting newbs not to join meta parties is not going to increase the overall usership of dungeons.

eh well whatevs, maybe its a lost cause.

lordkrall.7241:

Shiyo.3578:

Huh? I had nothing to be wrong or right about. I just said they’re removing the having to do stuff to unlock traits system in HOT.

As an argument for the NPE being bad. Which is silly (and incorrect) seeing as the trait change had a grand total of nothing at all to do with the NPE.

the npe and traits were basically part of the same system they created for china to change how NEW players experience the game.

the fact that traits changes only effected NEW PLAYERS is one of the key ways you can realize they are part of an overall system to change how new players progress.

now, you can say it was called something different, but if you take a look at what the words new player experience means, you would see they are part of the same game system.

If the trait change wasnt meant to alter the way new charachters are played, and their progression, they would not have altered anything other than the new special traits in the game.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I think, in principle, filters could be great and also expand to other parts of the game. Consider Silverwastes, for instance. You could use it to ensure that you group you’re joining is in a proper Silverwastes % or something. Maybe you’re only looking for a specific Dry Top tier level, or something else.

I don’t think inspect is something anyone can ever convince ANet to implement because it creates a judgmental environment for players. I also don’t think inspect is particularly useful outside of a narrow band of functionality, and lastly it still lets people who don’t meet your expectations join your party and then deal with being kicked either immediately or later when someone decides to check them.

im not saying all filters would be not beneficial, im saying a gear filter is too complex for to little reward.
Also filters need to have the information being tracked and supplied already, so you cant have something like dry top level (does that even exist as player data, isnt that based on the map your in)
The most adaptive filter i can see is one that can filter based on specific titles or achievements, even then the UI for that would basically have to be every achievement or title in the game.

a filter where you can select what job for each slot might be feasible, but something that can track how many berserker pieces and rarity of all gear? that would probably be best served by adding a whole new system, though i doubt even then it would work out.

in another game you can filter by item level, but they already have a system outside that tracks the average item level of players.

once again though i feel this whole thing is a big effort to achieve virtually nothing, isnt it fairly easy to get full exotics anyway? Isnt the more important things for speedruns, build setups and knowledge of the meta tactics?

I have to be honest here, i think you guys are too focused on a very small issue that would not really pay off in terms of development time.

creating a a complex lfg that can filter players according to their gear would cost a lot of time and energy, and only serve an incredibly small amount of players. It would increase the complexity of setting up an lfg, joining an lfg, have large UI costs, and it wouldnt even stop bad players from joining your party.

All you would stop is the rare guy in all greens from joining your party.

on the whole it wouldnt make dungeons more popular or get more people playing it. When is the last time you heard someone say, i quit running dungeons because guys in greens try to leech.

at least try to come up with something fairly simple that will achieve the same effect.

ask for a dungeon title that is like completed 120 dungeons or something, account bound, forget the filter, just kick people who arent showing the title if you want.

Lazaar.9123:

phys.7689:

Lazaar.9123:

Okay, here’s the deal. Taunt will not change the game into a trinity system, as the game is built from the ground up to not have it. Nor is there any indication that is has anything at all to do with threat. People will continue to use berserker stats, and will just use taunt to reposition enemies. So, let’s put these trinity reactions and pleading to rest, yes?

all you need for a trinity system is forced aggro control. we already have heals

that said if this is only available on a few classes, and has sufficient cooldown, your probably wont have enough forced agro control for a trinity to take hold completely.

However it is a step in that direction.

That would still not bring a traditional trinity, because people can already heal themselves, and content does not require a tank.

it doesnt have to require a tank, if its easier and faster with a tank.
a lot of games you could win without a tank, its just a lot more risky, and slower.

point is once someone can focus agro on himself, other people can focus on dps, and sacrifice their own defenses, then it might be worthwhile for someone else to focus on healing stats/skills to keep them alive, and yes you can actually heal a lot if you focus on it.

if they ever make challenging encounters, you will find more people going for the safer route, than the fastest unless the difference in speed is drastic.

however as i said, 1 or 2 skills, on 1 or two classes with cooldowns, wont be enough to create that situation, they would need to be able to make the monster attack them the majority of the time.

Lazaar.9123:

Okay, here’s the deal. Taunt will not change the game into a trinity system, as the game is built from the ground up to not have it. Nor is there any indication that is has anything at all to do with threat. People will continue to use berserker stats, and will just use taunt to reposition enemies. So, let’s put these trinity reactions and pleading to rest, yes?

all you need for a trinity system is forced aggro control. we already have heals

that said if this is only available on a few classes, and has sufficient cooldown, your probably wont have enough forced agro control for a trinity to take hold completely.

However it is a step in that direction.

One Note Chord.5031:

phys.7689:

i dunno, but we probably shouldnt assume they cant.

I dunno, they’ve demonstrated they’re pretty incompetent so far. I mean, their official line on why they don’t fix griefers being able to kick sellers is “It’s too haaaaard.”

but we should still give feedback like they can fix it, even if they cant.

Bernie.8674:

Behellagh.1468:

The problem you describe seems to have more to do with power leveling a new character to max through ways that didn’t let you either encounter the unlock missions as you play or naturally accrue SP and gold for that character. I believe the new trait system was only examined in terms of normal play and leveling, not rapid alt creation.

Except that even after taking my character through the normal play you described I was still at only four or five traits. Even after taking it through 100% map completion it was still missing 20+ traits. I don’t think his experience can be chalked up to a power leveling issue. Traits are an absolute nuisance.

yeah i made a new chr to test it out, i specifically worked hard to get traits, a normal play through wont get you many traits at all. There is a lot of players who came to the game last year, and stilll do not have all the traits to this day. They have level 80s with blanks still in their trait boxes.

Jerus.4350:

Am I the only one who doesn’t want some new convoluted lfg system?

EDIT: I gotta squash bugs on their forums. They can’t get rid of the 1 in the custom gem buy window. They have their TP bug out regularly. The current LFG system has it’s own bugs. Their attempt to give us a “majority” kick option failed.

You all believe they can put a complex LFG system into this game that is actually better than what we have? Are you sure you want them to try?

well now that they are talking about it, seems like they are probably complicating it, but after brainstorming it might come down to a simpler thing.

As far as can they do it? will they do it?

i dunno, but we probably shouldnt assume they cant. Up to them to figure that out.

Seera.5916:

1. I said she had a seven year old and a five year old. And by leave, I mean leaves without intent to return that group. And like I said, she informed the group of the possibility of her having to leave, so they were willing to accept the risk. And she can’t use the efficient LFG, she’s at risk of leaving. That’s not efficient. And this is just one example of a player who would be hurt by your change.

Players with connection issues would likely get caught by it.

Players also shouldn’t have to ask others to kick them to avoid a penalty when they realize their play styles don’t mesh well. A system that is designed where you have to go out of your way to avoid the consequences when you aren’t the ones who it was designed for is a bad system.

2. You didn’t specify that players joining groups they didn’t meet and getting kicked accordingly fit and based on previous posts you made, I could not assume you included them.

However, I still do not agree that voluntarily leaving a group should incur a penalty. I’ve never seen any posts on here by people complaining that they keep running into people who leave their groups before the run was done. Not to the degree to warrant punishing players for doing so.

connection issue wouldnt count as a leave, people would have to actively leave.

2) yeah i was saying that each lfg would have a different rule set that makes more sense for whats happening.
Thats why for the second set its the leader, or creator who institutes kicks, and the players can only kick him if its unanimous.

anyhow, if yall think leaving isnt a problem whatever is clever, i would suggest they build in the functionality, and not have it set to be used, because if it does become an issue, i wouldnt want them to take forver for a second pass.

Dave.2536:

What if no one ever creates a dungeon run that allows players with less than 1000AP into parties? They never get to experience that content and then leave the game having never known what it was? Maybe things like AP should be left out of the filter system to avoid that situation?

In reality, many sub-1k/2k AP players will get kicked even without a filter for AP in place

But to discuss the matter anyways, if the other filters were strong enough I would have no objections to leaving out AP. But I won’t consider filters strong enough in the absence of account/character age or character stat filters.

As it stands, I don’t think it’s the responsibility of LFG groups to teach people how to do dungeons, or even take the responsibility of taking new players.* That’s what guilds are for, and it’s up to the guilds (and individual initiative) to find a friendly and welcoming guild.

its not the responsibility of lfg groups, but the game itself has a responsibility to make dungeons accessible, otherwise, many people wont do it, and they will begin to ignore development in favor of things that more people do.

So the game needs to make it pretty easy to at least get a chance at playing a dungeon.

and do you really think AP even matters, or even charachter age? serious question, because someone could have bought this game 2 weeks ago, and playing primarily through dungeons and following guides have learned the game well enough to be an expert and dungeons.

I could have had 10k ap by now, and have a large amount of hours and days, but i wouldnt know my way around a speed run at all, i have never even tried one.

GiraffeRampage.6420:

Dave.2536:

Statistically someone with under 1000 or 2000 AP is going to be very new at the dungeon and much more likely to be a headless chicken. While this does not mean 100%, players are not entitled to not be filtered until groups get better filtering options.

Here’s the bottom line: if I can avoid a possible risk and form my group in a similar amount of time, then I will statistically have a higher chance of a smooth run.

Those who are hurt by this hedging can be the first in line to petition ANet for better filtering options, and I will be the second in line with them.

there should definitely be some type of filter system because if there was i would not run any dungeons with players who are above 10k. In fact i have ran dungeons with “more than 10k APs will be kicked” all day yesterday and i had pretty enjoyable runs with 5-8k players. I did end up kicking 2 players though after they joined asking why i have 10k AP kicked and i explained to them i dont want to play with anyone who has a ridiculous amount of APs as all of you usually tend to be snobby know it alls. Otherwise no problems, as that solved all the drama for me.

one day i will have 10k ap, i would probably have 10k ap by now if i kept playing, and i generally go with the flow in dungeons, so i dont think the stereotype is accurate, but whatever floats your boat.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Having followed this thread, I think having some kind of LFG filter system to enable players to only play with who they want to play with would be beneficial. This means that if you filter for “AP > 5000” no one with less than 5000 AP can join your group. Likewise, if you filter for “No Necromancer” then no Necromancer can join your party.

On the flip-side, I will note that this creates physical barriers to partying with others, which may or may not be healthy for the game. What if no one ever creates a dungeon run that allows players with less than 1000AP into parties? They never get to experience that content and then leave the game having never known what it was? Maybe things like AP should be left out of the filter system to avoid that situation?

Let’s try to talk about what filters we’d think would be valuable if we had such a system. Some ideas from others and my own ideas follow:

• Level Filters (Level 80 Only, Level 50+)
• Class Filters (No Necromancer, Max 3 Elementalists, Guardian Only, Heavy Only)
• AP Filter (1000+ AP, <10000 AP)

Feel free to discuss the pros and cons of each.

essentially, the solution, and i am now borrowing pretty heavily from another game, but it works

is to have a group finder that automatically places you with one set of rules.
this is what most people will use

and the lfg system with a different set of rules, and a lot more filters

most people will use the group finder except for content that is too hard to pug, or content that they dont want played in pug type way.

some things wont happen fast in either situation, but theres really nothing much to do about that. Those same things dont happen that fast right now.

The biggest danger is that the community is too small to be split, and both sides though they may have problems with each other, actually need each other to have enough people for content.

which probably means some how this change would need to be promoted in a way/at a time that more people will try it out, and have a positive experience.

Windsagio.1340:

Would any of you deny that you want it in gold because spending gold seems lekittenous to you?

To be honest, its not really a question of gold or not gold, that was a mistake by the OP
it already can be obtained through gold. What he really wants is a system that is more friendly to new players for the first additions.

but getting back to your question, i personally would rather buy it with cash, because your rate of pay for gold earning is pretty crappy, and i dont really like most gold earning methods in the game. I also tend to have a bunch of stuff i would rather use the gold i do get on.
generally the only time i exchange gold for gems is to make change(i got some left over gems), or if my freelancer life has me particularly broke in this moment, but generally i will just do without in that case.

for the record i probably wouldnt spend either on it. I think i have no expansion tabs at this time, i might have 1, im not sure

Behellagh.1468:

It only has value to ANet if a cash gem buyer exchanges for gold. But it makes no difference to ANet if the player bought gems with cash for gold or an item. The key point is they paid cash for gems.

And GameStop is a horrible racket that impacts developers by reselling the same copy of the game where the developer only gets money a slice of money from the first sale while GameStop gets a significant chunk money from subsequent sales. But that’s an entirely other issue.

yes it only has value if they can resell it, but they have created a transaction system that basically assures its already paid for before they even accept it at payment.
Thats what the currency exchange algorithms job is, to make sure anet is getting paid in cash for every gold exchange.

basically its worth it, if you know you can sell it, and anet knows they can sell it

and yeah gamestop are jerks in many ways, but they definately understood the value of something other people decided was valueless, and were wrong.

Behellagh.1468:

Except gold has no direct value to ANet. Paying for a Gem Shop item with gold doesn’t help ANet meet payroll. And since you aren’t paying them in a currency ANet can use to make payroll, you are getting that item for free.

It’s not that hard of a concept.

thats like saying the guy at the collectible model shop doesnt get any value for collectible models.

and yeah he will accept collectible cars for payment IF you are giving him a better or equal deal to what he could get elsewhere, and he knows he can sell it. I know this because i have seen it irl, quite commonly.

you know there was a time, and its probably still the case, that gamestop makes more money off of reselling games than selling new games?

yes it has value to anet.

Wanze.8410:

Well, im done with this thread as it mostly went off topic towards a rng discussion anyways and we have a seperate thread for that.

I guess the OP´s question has been answered sufficiently.

its not really a rng discussion, its more about player controlled supply versus developer controlled supply,
and also the structure of ascended crafting, and how it effects demand,

though it has veered to the hows and whys, rather than the direct questions of should he buy or sell.
regardless of the difference of opinions, i feel the conversation has brought up some things worth discussing, exposed some different idealogies and solutions.

For example, from you, i get the vibe that you believe the primary focus of the economy should be to remain stable, even when that stability doesnt directly serve a positive purpose for the users in some respects.

Essentially i gather (though i may be wrong) you believe that maintaining stable values that slowly adjust create a better environment on the whole, than an extremely responsive system.

i dont really think however that silk nodes would crash the silk market, unless the market is in a bubble state right now, where silks value doesnt represent its real value.

it would go down some, but a lot of people would still pay, not to have to go get nodes themselves, just fewer people. When the price drops below the point its worth it to get, people will stop supplying it.

games i have played where items are created primarily through intention rarely have items that are below vendor value.

I guess the other possible fear of direct systems, is that for some items there would be no supply, because they have very limited value, so people would have to gather them themselves, but generally such items dont really belong in the player trading world anyway, and should probably be npc items.

Jerus.4350:

phys.7689:

Thaddeus.4891:

phys.7689:

the penalty doesnt need to be like banning, it can just be like you cant use the grouping tool for a half hour. if a person is leaving groups 5+ times a day but doesn’t want to wait a half hour before returning, i think they may be a serial leaver.

On days that i play for a longer time, this would affect me a lot. I can see me leave 5 groups very easily. This is bullkitten, forcing ppl to play together for no other reason that you feel that the community is harsh. There is A LOT of situation when what you propose would be terrible.

you can ask the party to vote kick you and get no penalty for leaving.

It works in another game i play.
but the bias should actually be towards playing together,
thats why people join a group. If you are leaving groups 5 times a day, and the people of the party dont want you to, they probably would have been better off, if you didnt join.

notice, the entire point of the its all about the party mode, is that its more about the party,

i didnt put that into the effecient mode because that is about being effecient with your time, and i think people there wouldnt mind? not really sure.

anyhow, these are just my ideas, they arent set in stone, and probably would never happen, but yeah i dont think its an unfair system.

keep in mind you wouldnt be locked out from dungeons just one tab in the group finder, for 30 minutes, i dont think its that big a deal

I leave parties probably 5X in an hour. Why? Because I join the arah group ask if they’re going to exploit the reflect on Lupi, they say yes, I wish them a good day and bounce.

So now I’m going to be punished for trying to find a group I’ll actually have fun in? What a load of horse manure.

There is a lockout on joining groups already though. If you try to join something like 5-10 of them within abuot half an hour you get locked out for a good 15 mins. When it pops up the threshold is lower and you can join like 1 group every 15 mins, eventually you’ll be locked out for over an hour. I saw this trying to do SW. Hell the other night I wasn’t even able to get into a SW map that was actually doing the events before I got the lockout…

In DCUO we had the deserter system. It had all sorts of problems, a Disconnect would cause you to get deserter. Leaving the dungeon after you completed it but before it recognized that it was over resulted in a deserter penalty. It was terrible. While GW2 wouldn’t have the same problems I can only imagine it’d have it’s own quirks that make it bad, just like the current “can’t join too many groups” thing we have in the game, which even counts attempting to join a group but being unable to as a joined group and locks you out for 15 minutes if you already built up yoru timer…

It’s simply a bad idea. As for “well they can just kick you” well what if they won’t? Well then I’ll just stay in the group and go farm nodes while they do the dungeon. What a great way to promote comradery…

I actually like the idea of an upvote system, though realistically, we all know it’d just be exploited by those who care too much about it, ignored by those who don’t, and like AP become a very dumb segregation tool. So… it’s a bad idea.

But, positive incentives are far better than negative ones. It’d be interesting if they could add a counter on a dungeon, goes up the more you do it. If someone has less than say 75/50/25/5% of your completions you can get bonus stuff for taking them through, scaling system similar to fractals and karma? Hell it could be karma, dungeon karma would be neat.

leaving the social group because they are cheating, or other such things is a good point. Does that really happen so often? its a shame.
anyhow like i said its not the backbone of the system, i still think it serves purpose, but whatevs

Seera.5916:

Your solution just replaces some problems with different problems. Here are a few anecdotes:

1. Susan has a five and a seven year old. Her kids are past the age where they need constant watch. And it’s a school day. But she has chores to do. So she runs dungeons during the times when she can. Like between steps of doing laundry. But it can take time to deal with laundry, so she leaves. She does two loads of laundry that day so she ends up leaving dungeons twice. Then the kids come home, but that’s a known time so she’s not in a dungeon at the moment. She hops in later but has to leave when one of her kids needs homework help. Then she had to leave later that night because one kid starting feeling sick. She then can’t do anymore dungeons because she left 4 that day already. And no, she can’t wait for someone to kick her. Laundry gets wrinkled, and well, kids come first. Your leaving 4 times rule punishes her.

2. Johnny only has an hour to do dungeons. As such he posts a requirement for people to be level 80 and experienced. He doesn’t have time to teach. A person joins who is level 60 and new to the path. Johnny asks him to leave as he doesn’t have time to teach or have the lowered DPS. The person says he has every right to be there. Johnny kicks him. Person reports Johnny for inappropriate kicking. Johnny ends up suspended all because he enforced his LFG posting. He posted an LFG asking for X and gets suspended because he tried to enforce it? That’s crazy. If that was supposed to be the case, why have a spot for descriptions for LFG’s at all? Might as well just have a check box that asks what dungeon you want to do and it randomly puts you into a group with others. Because that’s what this rule comes down to.

Your solution just replaces a perceived problem (kicking people who don’t fit the requirement is not a problem) with two worse problems. Punishing players who have to leave immediately, but do the polite thing and leave the group before signing off. And punishing players who post a requirement and then try to enforce it.

1) situation 1, susan has a two year old. If she really got to leave a lot, without the groups ok, the fact that she has to wait a half hour after the 5th time it happens. Does it really matter? likely whatever emergency that she had to leave the party right now for, for the 5th time a day will probably take at least 15 minutes to deal with. So she is waiting for 15 minutes the 5th time this happens, its really not a lot of time. And its only this social focused dungeon finder that she is locked out from. She can still party with guildies, use the effecient focused lfg, or whatever. she only cant use the more social focused party finder for a small time

I feel bad for her having to wait 15 minutes, the 5th time, but you dont think her leaving 5 times per day didnt make everyone else there wait 15 minutes in total at that point?

2)for situation 2, the only innappropriate kicking in the effecient mode is for greifing, which im pretty sure is what is the case right now. It seems to barely be in use, and people tend to get a slap on the wrist, which is gone pretty quickly. Im essentially sayin no penalty for kicking here, except for the extreme type of cases that they would actually act on today already, which from what i hear is pretty rarely. One thing i can imagine some guy who like to kick 3 people at the end of the dungeon for no reason to get other people in, or just cause it amuses him.

anyhow the leave function isnt the central theme of the system, i think it would be a good idea, but if whoever was in charge didnt, it wouldnt effect the goal of the system that much.

Thaddeus.4891:

phys.7689:

the penalty doesnt need to be like banning, it can just be like you cant use the grouping tool for a half hour. if a person is leaving groups 5+ times a day but doesn’t want to wait a half hour before returning, i think they may be a serial leaver.

On days that i play for a longer time, this would affect me a lot. I can see me leave 5 groups very easily. This is bullkitten, forcing ppl to play together for no other reason that you feel that the community is harsh. There is A LOT of situation when what you propose would be terrible.

you can ask the party to vote kick you and get no penalty for leaving.

It works in another game i play.
but the bias should actually be towards playing together,
thats why people join a group. If you are leaving groups 5 times a day, and the people of the party dont want you to, they probably would have been better off, if you didnt join.

notice, the entire point of the its all about the party mode, is that its more about the party,

i didnt put that into the effecient mode because that is about being effecient with your time, and i think people there wouldnt mind? not really sure.

anyhow, these are just my ideas, they arent set in stone, and probably would never happen, but yeah i dont think its an unfair system.

keep in mind you wouldnt be locked out from dungeons just one tab in the group finder, for 30 minutes, i dont think its that big a deal

Thaddeus.4891:

phys.7689:

Its all about the party mode.

• kicking requires 3/5
• leaving 4 times a day gives a penalty
• cool dude commendations can be handed out on completion, which serves no real purpose other than unlocking some titles related to being an easy going adventurer
• kicking for reasons other than harrassment, afk, offline etc are actionable offenses.
• vote abandon everyone leaves with no leaving penalty

I think it suppose to be already 3/5 for kick, but something don’t work and Gaile didn’t came back with an answer on that yet. WTH leaving 4 times a day give you a penalty. What If I need to go 30min for a IRL situation, I’ll quit the party to give my place. What if I want to give my place to one of my friend in the middle of the run? (did that on Arah path 4, helped my guildmate up to mid dungeon, then gave my place to a friend who never did it before). What if there is no abuse, but just disagreement in the dungeon and I want to leave, because it’s no fun? What if the party wasn’t what I expected and its a bad party that take forever to complete stuff? Same with the kicking thing. What If I asked for path 2 and 3 in the LFG because we are 4 of my guild. We complete path 2, then start path 3 and a guildmate get online. If we started the dungeon I’ll complete it with the pug, but if we only entered the path, i’ll ask him to leave or kick him while explaining to him why. And how this will work? You could obviously quit a party outside a dungeon so it would only be when you are inside the dungeon that the restriction would appear? Could I just quit the instance and then quit the party without penalty? If yes the quitting policy is useless, if no then that mean that I can’t switch character in the middle of a run?

phys.7689:

And thats the bottom line mode

• kicking is instituted by leader and seconded
• leader can be changed by 4/5 vote
• leader changes on DC by vote, or order of joining.
• leaving, no penalty? (not sure if this would be good, im assuming yes)
• Each person can give 1 person master of execution commendation on completion which serves no other purpose other than unlocking some titles related to being an effecient adventurer. (and probably end up as a kind of badge on how good you are in elite circles)
• kicking isnt actionable unless its greifing

I’m ok with most of that. But the master of execution commendation. Na. ‘’Elite circles’’ (Whatever that mean) will take care of their own things, if anet install something like that it will be worthless.

the penalty doesnt need to be like banning, it can just be like you cant use the grouping tool for a half hour. if a person is leaving groups 5+ times a day but doesnt want to wait a half hour before returning, i think they may be a serial leaver.

as for the commendations, it serves no other purpose other than a cool little thing that doesnt matter that much. They have it in that other game, and it basically tends to make people slightly more engaged i think.
It could be taken out.
However i think some elite groups will use those titles as measure of things, they did it before in gw1, and the ap people do it now

Tom Gore.4035:

Wanze.8410:

Tom Gore.4035:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Now, is this the case with silk? who knows, but we cant find out, because we cant adjust the supply.

We cant find out by adjusting supply but its not neccessary because Anet can.
They have all the metrics, of how much silk scraps and weaving threads get created per day, how much gets destroyed and how much get bought and sold at which price point.

So in the case that falling silk prices and rising silk supply dont result in added demand for damask, there is not need to further devalue it.

according to most capitalist theory, and they could be wrong, but this is the common belief,
One entity is generally considered to be inferior to the market itself at finding the right price points for items.
Complaints are generally that such an entity would be less responsive, more rigid, and have effected by concerns outside of the price of the specific good itself.

im sure economists have debated this many times, i dont think there is a 100% right answer for all situations, but in this situation i see it like this.
for a long time, anets numbers had us oversupplying silk to the point it became valueless
as a solution to that problem, Ascendeds item requirements, created a bunch of new problems, like proffesion progression inequality, an apparently high feeling of grind, increased farming activity etc.

i feel like the single entity is not currently as effecient at finding these sweet spots as many claim a more free market to be.

i generally find that items that have targetable means of supply tend to have their price more closely aligned with a value that people feel comfortable buying, supplying and selling them

i dont think we are there for silk, or leather.

But we have been oversupplying silk for months now and just because silk is not at your sweet spot, doesnt mean its not at a sweet spot for everybody else.

The oversupplying is already over. Supply is going down and price is going up ever since Wintersday is over. What is your solution now? Introduce another festival to bring another temporary supply for silk? Or MAYBE it’s time to introduce a permanent solution? Eh?

I would opt for another temporary or timegated solution, like an item that consumes dragonite and gives out silk.

The latter I would be all over about, no doubt.

But it would again be just a temporary solution. After the initial rush of extra dragonite turned into extra silk would be gone, the problem would come back.

Are you sure you’re not opposed to getting a steady, controllable supply of silk just because the current fluctuating oversupply/undersupply makes it easier for you to make money on the TP?

actually dragonite isnt time gated, you can get infinitely, which means it would be renewable and viable

However, that means he doesnt have problem with silk being targetable, just the specific means using nodes.

Why are you specifically opposed to nodes wanze?

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Wanze.8410:

I think Anet did a good job in adjusting the silk output in the last couple of months and introducing silk nodes isnt neccessary.

Mmm.

Now the other cloth tiers . . . ? Is this only solvable the same way Silver Dubloons are? (Leave a character at the ‘appropriate level’ and resist all tries to level them up.)

Those 3 cloths can be easily “farmed” by buying them with karma, which is quite profitable and they also saw additional outputs during season 2, even though not to the extend of silk. Their added output was mostly during Halloween and Wintersday, so their value only dropped considerably during those festivals and recovered a little after that. But also other outputs were added, like the gift of mawdrey and the gift of gratitude. Wool and Cotton are obtainable from the cloth rack as well.

There are also several event chains, like the pre events to Moodnir Ulgoth, or dungeons, that drop t2-4 cloth at a good rate, so i dont think they are a problem. Thier overall output and requirement for damask are probably in line with the output of silk and its requirements for damask.

I can understand the desire of some people to be able to farm everything for their daily needs on their own at a considerable pace. But if that was possible, we wouldnt need a trading post, which gives us the option to pay other players with gold for our wanted items.
Silk drops in general make up a good portion of the average players loot table at end game. If you devalue that too much, people who dont want to craft ascended gear, will start complaining.

John Smith mentioned that changes to the economy usually dont aim at short term fixes but rather try to solve the problem in the long term. They probably looked at silk last summer and determined its supply was not sufficient and its price too high and then adjusted their output all through season 2. By using timegated outputs (Mawdrey, Gift of Gratitude, Cloth Rack) and temporary outputs (Halloween, Wintersday) they made sure that prices will go down gradually and not crash, as they would, if you added farmable nodes all over Tyria or slashed the requirements for damask.

We also dont know what Anet has in store for us this year, feature patches, like the one last year in April that made Ascended gear account bound, seem to usually have an impact on demand as well, so they probably take future plans into the equation, when adjusting supply faucets.

The design of the system shouldnt exist to feed the TP, people will trade silk on the TP because the price people are willing to pay makes it worthwhile.

people killing mass quantities of random mobs always made the most money (farming) even when silk was 8 copper, so i dont think you really need to worry about their earnings.

It doesnt feed the tp it feeds other people through the tp, which is a great design because gives people more options to get what they want.
If you let people overproduce silk, it will go back to vendor value and i dont see anybody being happy about that.

people will not overproduce silk with intent, at least not to a drastic level. Every time the price drops, less people will supply it. at vendor price virtually no one will intentionly give their time, or focus to supplying silk.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Now, is this the case with silk? who knows, but we cant find out, because we cant adjust the supply.

We cant find out by adjusting supply but its not neccessary because Anet can.
They have all the metrics, of how much silk scraps and weaving threads get created per day, how much gets destroyed and how much get bought and sold at which price point.

So in the case that falling silk prices and rising silk supply dont result in added demand for damask, there is not need to further devalue it.

according to most capitalist theory, and they could be wrong, but this is the common belief,
One entity is generally considered to be inferior to the market itself at finding the right price points for items.
Complaints are generally that such an entity would be less responsive, more rigid, and have effected by concerns outside of the price of the specific good itself.

im sure economists have debated this many times, i dont think there is a 100% right answer for all situations, but in this situation i see it like this.
for a long time, anets numbers had us oversupplying silk to the point it became valueless
as a solution to that problem, Ascendeds item requirements, created a bunch of new problems, like proffesion progression inequality, an apparently high feeling of grind, increased farming activity etc.

i feel like the single entity is not currently as effecient at finding these sweet spots as many claim a more free market to be.

i generally find that items that have targetable means of supply tend to have their price more closely aligned with a value that people feel comfortable buying, supplying and selling them

i dont think we are there for silk, or leather.

Wanze.8410:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Wanze.8410:

I think Anet did a good job in adjusting the silk output in the last couple of months and introducing silk nodes isnt neccessary.

Mmm.

Now the other cloth tiers . . . ? Is this only solvable the same way Silver Dubloons are? (Leave a character at the ‘appropriate level’ and resist all tries to level them up.)

Those 3 cloths can be easily “farmed” by buying them with karma, which is quite profitable and they also saw additional outputs during season 2, even though not to the extend of silk. Their added output was mostly during Halloween and Wintersday, so their value only dropped considerably during those festivals and recovered a little after that. But also other outputs were added, like the gift of mawdrey and the gift of gratitude. Wool and Cotton are obtainable from the cloth rack as well.

There are also several event chains, like the pre events to Moodnir Ulgoth, or dungeons, that drop t2-4 cloth at a good rate, so i dont think they are a problem. Thier overall output and requirement for damask are probably in line with the output of silk and its requirements for damask.

I can understand the desire of some people to be able to farm everything for their daily needs on their own at a considerable pace. But if that was possible, we wouldnt need a trading post, which gives us the option to pay other players with gold for our wanted items.
Silk drops in general make up a good portion of the average players loot table at end game. If you devalue that too much, people who dont want to craft ascended gear, will start complaining.

John Smith mentioned that changes to the economy usually dont aim at short term fixes but rather try to solve the problem in the long term. They probably looked at silk last summer and determined its supply was not sufficient and its price too high and then adjusted their output all through season 2. By using timegated outputs (Mawdrey, Gift of Gratitude, Cloth Rack) and temporary outputs (Halloween, Wintersday) they made sure that prices will go down gradually and not crash, as they would, if you added farmable nodes all over Tyria or slashed the requirements for damask.

We also dont know what Anet has in store for us this year, feature patches, like the one last year in April that made Ascended gear account bound, seem to usually have an impact on demand as well, so they probably take future plans into the equation, when adjusting supply faucets.

The design of the system shouldnt exist to feed the TP, people will trade silk on the TP because the price people are willing to pay makes it worthwhile.

people killing mass quantities of random mobs always made the most money (farming) even when silk was 8 copper, so i dont think you really need to worry about their earnings.

split for formatting
And i do think the key is probably to have the game better manage expectations, and create channels that give a soft seperation between the players with different focuses.

perhaps they could have some formalized lfg settings with different rule systems/expectations

Its all about the party mode.

• kicking requires 3/5
• leaving 4 times a day gives a penalty
• cool dude commendations can be handed out on completion, which serves no real purpose other than unlocking some titles related to being an easy going adventurer
• kicking for reasons other than harrassment, afk, offline etc are actionable offenses.
• vote abandon everyone leaves with no leaving penalty

this would be the default mode, and you would have to click a different button to see the other mode.

And thats the bottom line mode

• kicking is instituted by leader and seconded
• leader can be changed by 4/5 vote
• leader changes on DC by vote, or order of joining.
• leaving, no penalty? (not sure if this would be good, im assuming yes)
• Each person can give 1 person master of execution commendation on completion which serves no other purpose other than unlocking some titles related to being an effecient adventurer. (and probably end up as a kind of badge on how good you are in elite circles)
• kicking isnt actionable unless its greifing

This alone would probably create a clear delination of what the purpose is, and what to expect, while you can do this by writing stuff lfg, there is still a lot of confusion, and just a different understanding of purpose. Also these two different groups probably need a different rule set governing them.
newer adventurers, or more relaxed players who dont dungeon a lot, might give dungeons another try if there is a mode dedicated to just going in there and doing a dungeon with some people.

Dave.2536:

I know you dont understand this, but i suppose it comes down to empathy.

This sort of condescension is unnecessary and undermines everything you’ve done up to now. What you dismiss as Harper’s lack of understanding and empathy may also be turned around to be your inability or refusal to understand him or how this game does things(egocentricity).

Or perhaps its just logical. In their minds they see some one get kicked for a disagreement, and they think hmm… if i disagree they might kick me too…

If I formed a zerker party and kicked someone who joined without zerker gear, the other 3 members would be thinking “that’s what you get for not reading/following LFG”.

Since this is the kind of lesson and feeling that people get when they see someone get kicked, then by golly maybe I need to kick more people!

you are reading too far into it.
I genuinely mean he does not understand it, and im not saying he should, i am saying that i see there is a disconnect because he has a logical argument. But his logical argument does not consider the fact that people are not all logical, and many are acting based on emotion. I feel bad when someone gets kicked, even if the kicking served a purpose. There are a lot of people who are similar.

As to the kicking of someone not following your meta, you arent really getting that the other group of people is different than you. They have a different goal, the people who are new/average and are joining a party that doesnt have a meta requirement arent just joining a party for a different playstyle, they are joining a party for a different atmosphere and feeling.

While a party focused on effeciency, the general feeling of kicking someone may be to maximize effeciency, the people who join an open party, or who may enjoy doing killing crap and taking down big bosses with a bit of a challenge and a bit of a social element are less focused on effeciency.
they are more focused on having a situation of bonding with people through adventure(and winning). If that is your purpose than kicking someone is a strong blow to that.

kicking someone is the end of any social interaction with them, the final blow. And generally seeing that happen doesnt make people feel more social,
unless the guy was such a big jerk that they bond through hatred of him.

Im not saying anyone has to take my viewpoint, im more trying to explain, that some people have these viewpoints, and people who are less focused on the bottomline, are more likely to be these types. And that may be why a lot of them feel alienated in dungeons, or like they shouldnt bother.

Ideally you want to create a system for dungeons that can please both groups, so that more people can enjoy dungeons, and they can make more of them, because so many people want to do them.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

TheDaiBish.9735:

dietzero.3514:

So you will be breaking up and carrying some concrete to a giant bin. You can do it over a few days if you like. It will only take time and effort, so I will not be paying you.

Are you seriously comparing playing a game for entertainment to manual labour?

No, he’s seriously dodging discussion so he can exercise reductio ad absurdum trying to win points.

its not really absurd at all. Just because you enjoy your time spent doesnt mean it isnt valuable.

I enjoy drawing, does that mean i should give out drawings for free? nope. Many doctors genuinely enjoy helping people, should they work for free? nope.

wether you have fun or not is completely irrelevant to the value of time, or whether it is worth money.
but forget being worth money, because regardless, time is an extremely valuable commodity, regardless of money, its probably the most valuable commodity anyone actually has.

Wanze.8410:

Manoa.5897:

However, prices can be a good indication of whether an oversupply or undersupply exists, since price is a reflection of the relationship between supply and demand. When you have 4 ascended mats and the price of 1 of those mats is a clear outlyer that is well above the prices of the other 3 mats, there are pretty good odds that an undersupply exists.

The cause of the undersupply may be on the supply side of the equation (no reliable way to obtain the stuff used to create the ascended mat), or on the demand side (ANet requiring more stuff to create the ascended mat compared to the other ascended mats). Or…it can be both (which I think is the case).

I think its more the price evolution which is a good indicator of oversupply and undersupply, not the price compared to different items. I find it hard to believe that silk or damask is undersupplied when supply on the tp has been growing continously for 5 months and prices dropped.

the relation ship of supply demand, and price is not always a simple one.
Some times you would make more, by charging less, but you can only do that if the supply can match that.

lets say your price point on a apples is 5 dollars, it sells consistently but slowly, and you slowly build up an excess of apples. you sell 1000 apples a month and build up a surplus of 100 apples a month
you say man i am making too many apples i keep wasting apples
now you could look at that and say, cutting the price to 4 dollars, yeah i might sell more apples, but i would only make 4400 dollars

but it turns out that when you dropped the price to 4 dollars, a bunch more people become interested in apples, an apple pop tart factory can now afford to makea decent profit buying your apples, they now want 1000 more apples if the price is 4 dollars.

but you cant make 1000 more apples, so you are actually undersupplied, and your 5 dollar price actually makes you less money than you could make, if you could only produce 1000 more apples per month.

Now, is this the case with silk? who knows, but we cant find out, because we cant adjust the supply.

I will say ascended is failing at its goal of being something people enjoy doing as an endgame activity, many people are opting out, and dont feel rewarded doing it. I just stopped one day after being like 4/6 or maybe 5/6 armor peices for leather because the daily craft made me want to choke a *!@). I dont even entertain the notion that i would bother on my mesmer.

the point of that is, i think the current costs, in time/money are not such that they are at the right price point. Especially when you realize, that the real point of ascended isnt even to make gold, its to be something that people want to do once they reach endgame.

back to the apple analogy for a second, anets goal with ascended can be likened to the goal of getting people hooked on apples. The current supply of silk is not one that gets people hooked on apples

Harper.4173:

phys.7689:

Harper.4173:

phys.7689:

the dungeon community should actually be for everyone who likes the gameplay of dungeons.

See your response shows a lot here.

You want people to follow what you say, so you make guides, cool
if people dont follow what you say, they are the enemy, and are objectively stupid.

regardless of your rightness or wrongness about anything mechanic related, thats the attitude that people dont like that makes them want to avoid dungeons, and dealing with that mindset.

Sure, there are hardheads on the other side,
half the time the complaint people have isnt even about one side or the other side, its that when they are trying to do a dungeon, these two sides will have a big argument in the middle of the dungeon, and someone will rage quit, or vote kick.

a lot of people dont want to do that, they want to work together to beat a dungeon meta or not, without huge blow ups because 1 guy isnt following meta.

and no, that isnt confined just to lfgs that ask for speed clears/ zerk metas etc.

you think im trolling when i say people outside of the dungeon community think that dungeons are filled with drama and control freaks? look at the op, thats what people really think

1. He makes guides for getting things done fast. If you don’t follow the guides don’t join groups that care about doing things fast.

2. Attitude has nothing to do with it. You either follow the guides and play with people that care about the guides or don’t follow them and expect being kicked from those groups.

3.

a lot of people dont want to do that, they want to work together to beat a dungeon meta or not, without huge blow ups because 1 guy isnt following meta.

This was a thing 2.5 years ago. Nobody does dungeons to “work thgether and beat a duongen” these days.
Most players have already done the “beat a dungeon” step a few hundred times by now.

So find those players who haven’t or find those who are willing to be patient and tolerant. Don’t take it out on the rest of us just because you weren’t here 2.5 years ago and feel left out.

you missed the part where this happens in parties whether there is a zerker meta whatever request or not.

this is what happens when a normal player tries to play the game, and though the read the guides thing makes sense for hardcore dungeon running, it shouldnt really be the default expectation of non meta requested LFGs.

and yeah i have been playing the game from day 1, its not really about me, i expect crap to go wrong, and people to be aholes when i pug. Thing is, i found out the frequency of the drama is much lower in some other games, the question is why is that, and how can that be brought into this game without screwing everything up.

If a non-meta player comes into a meta run you kick him and you’ve solved your problem.
Why must there be such drama if a meta player joins a non-meta run? Just kick him and be done with it.

Why must we post and repost on the forums about it?

If he’s not the kind of player you wanted and advertised for – regardless of what group he belongs in – kick and replace.

its hard for you to understand what im saying because you see kicking as something with no negative connotations, just a matter of course.

however, a lot of people dont see it that way, kicking to them, is the final solution when there can be no more understanding between people. Its kind of harsh, and leaves a slightly bad taste in the air. I know you dont understand this, but i suppose it comes down to empathy.

Even though some one may be being slightly jerky, you know how it would feel to get kicked, and so you dont feel good when you have to start kicking people.
Or perhaps its just logical. In their minds they see some one get kicked for a disagreement, and they think hmm… if i disagree they might kick me too…

Now this isnt everybody, but its enough that some average guy comes in, just to play, and he sees someone get kicked in the first room, they often take it away as a negative experience.

Im not saying you shouldnt be kicking people, im telling you that people getting kicked is a negative experience for a lot of players, Most especially people who havent run dungeons a ton, they dont know that this is an age old debate, and the kick may be a pre emptive measure to stop 10-15 minutes of pointless arguing, (even though the guy may actually stop biotching about whatever after a short discussion)

Dave.2536:

Just because you don’t think there are pros to a DPS meter (or inspect) in this game does not mean that there actually aren’t any.

Meters and inspect mainly filter out the people who aren’t pulling their weight in a group, and serve as a preemptive filter against people who would try to join a group they clearly don’t belong in. When was the last time you saw a lvl 80 DPS try to join a lvl 100+ speed run group? We get that kind of stuff all the time in GW2. In other words, a lot of the effect happens preemptively and in the subconscious. Problems are prevented before they happen and this is why you don’t see any.

PS: gear requirements in FFXIV are a joke. They’re pretty much the equivalent to asking for level 75 white gear for CoF or level 80 green gear for FotM 50.

---

EDIT:

and to be clear, on the kicking, she was recommending i/we kick players who join parties with no real meta announcement and try to enforce a specific playstyle.

I don’t endorse that. Very few in this forum endorse that. Because most of us are either forgiving and patient enough to deal with bad players, or we’re not masochist enough to try to make a group without specifying clear expectations.

Just in case it needs to be said, do not even think of trying to pin a “culture of kicking” for kicks of the players who very clearly do disregard the LFG posting when they join a group with clearly set expectations.

actually, from what i hear, a lot of those encounters actually were initially beat at those levels, without the echo/harder mechanics
first coil requires 70, and at the time, i dont think you could get many level 80 pieces, if any. after beating it you had some level 90 pieces,

even the regular dungeons ilevels, like pharoh sirius was 48, which is meant to be one of the first dungeons you do after you hit 50, and its definately doable at 48, thats when me and my friends did it, same with garudahm/ifrit hm

nowdays everyone is generally way over level, but they were actually beat initially by people who did not have whatver level gear dropped there, that was the awesome gear, and it was harder.

Dave.2536:

Thing is, i found out the frequency of the drama is much lower in some other games, the question is why is that, and how can that be brought into this game without screwing everything up.

Other games don’t “force” the casual and hardcore players to mingle as much as GW2 does. FFXIV has a pretty clear line between hardcore content (Coil/primals) and more casual stuff (whatever they farm for tomes now), and the really hardcore players no longer have much reason to venture back into the casual content, and especially not the story line stuff. Even the “bribes” are not enough to entice the very elite.

GW2 puts some of its most lucrative rewards in the easy content while the harder stuff rewards trash in comparison. You then end up with everyone of all sorts of abilities being driven to run the same content.

i dont like this idea of kicking people so easily, maybe Im just crazy, but it doesnt feel like people just kicking people all the time will generate a positive feeling about dungeon running.

Neither does asking for zerker players for FotM 50 and getting a player obviously in some sort of defensive gear, a bunch of magic find food+boosters, and a corruption sigil. I suspect that with DPS meters and/or the inspect function I would not have run into such a player (as it would have been clear to him to not join my party), and such an incident would have been avoided.

In exchange for more peaceful behavior after the group is formed, are you willing to accept Inspect and DPS meters? We in the dungeon community would instantly accept that proposal in overwhelming numbers.

inspect isnt really that relevant in ffxiv, they have a min gear level, and winning most encounters is more about learning the encounter than how high you are above that min requirement.

As far as the elite content, much higher rate of rage there, but thats usually after failing multiple times, as far as the dps meter, in ffxiv i never noticed it, only the agro meter. I dont really think there is much advantage to a dps meter in gw2 anyhow. the guy who does the most damage, is probably getting 25 might stacks, fury and vulnerability from some one else/team effort.

i do agree that their isnt a clear delineation between regular dungeon play and hardcore dungeon play.

and to be clear, on the kicking, she was recommending i/we kick players who join parties with no real meta announcement and try to enforce a specific playstyle. And i was saying i dont think i would want to be kicking people so easily.

See, heres the thing the average guy, or newb sees a kick, hes like kitten , things are pretty unforgiving, this guy got kicked for saying lets stack in the corner/not stack in the corner. Average player doesnt really want to see that stuff, even if its not him. They just want things to go relatively smoothly.

Seera.5916:

phys.7689:

Harper.4173:

phys.7689:

the dungeon community should actually be for everyone who likes the gameplay of dungeons.

See your response shows a lot here.

You want people to follow what you say, so you make guides, cool
if people dont follow what you say, they are the enemy, and are objectively stupid.

regardless of your rightness or wrongness about anything mechanic related, thats the attitude that people dont like that makes them want to avoid dungeons, and dealing with that mindset.

Sure, there are hardheads on the other side,
half the time the complaint people have isnt even about one side or the other side, its that when they are trying to do a dungeon, these two sides will have a big argument in the middle of the dungeon, and someone will rage quit, or vote kick.

a lot of people dont want to do that, they want to work together to beat a dungeon meta or not, without huge blow ups because 1 guy isnt following meta.

and no, that isnt confined just to lfgs that ask for speed clears/ zerk metas etc.

you think im trolling when i say people outside of the dungeon community think that dungeons are filled with drama and control freaks? look at the op, thats what people really think

1. He makes guides for getting things done fast. If you don’t follow the guides don’t join groups that care about doing things fast.

2. Attitude has nothing to do with it. You either follow the guides and play with people that care about the guides or don’t follow them and expect being kicked from those groups.

3.

a lot of people dont want to do that, they want to work together to beat a dungeon meta or not, without huge blow ups because 1 guy isnt following meta.

This was a thing 2.5 years ago. Nobody does dungeons to “work thgether and beat a duongen” these days.
Most players have already done the “beat a dungeon” step a few hundred times by now.

So find those players who haven’t or find those who are willing to be patient and tolerant. Don’t take it out on the rest of us just because you weren’t here 2.5 years ago and feel left out.

you missed the part where this happens in parties whether there is a zerker meta whatever request or not.

this is what happens when a normal player tries to play the game, and though the read the guides thing makes sense for hardcore dungeon running, it shouldnt really be the default expectation of non meta requested LFGs.

and yeah i have been playing the game from day 1, its not really about me, i expect crap to go wrong, and people to be aholes when i pug. Thing is, i found out the frequency of the drama is much lower in some other games, the question is why is that, and how can that be brought into this game without screwing everything up.

I always ask if I’m joining an LFG that doesn’t say all welcome, or non-stack, etc.

Unfortunately, there are some meta runners that decide that just p1 or p2 is enough. And then wonder why non-meta players join. And there are likely a few who don’t read the LFG descriptions as well. But you’re free and clear to kick them as they don’t meet the group requirements (you aren’t requiring anything, they’re trying to force you to).

i dont like this idea of kicking people so easily, maybe Im just crazy, but it doesnt feel like people just kicking people all the time will generate a positive feeling about dungeon running.

The other game has kick, and i most of the times i have seen it used it was for a disconnect or afking. Sometimes someone being a super kitten.

Harper.4173:

phys.7689:

the dungeon community should actually be for everyone who likes the gameplay of dungeons.

See your response shows a lot here.

You want people to follow what you say, so you make guides, cool
if people dont follow what you say, they are the enemy, and are objectively stupid.

regardless of your rightness or wrongness about anything mechanic related, thats the attitude that people dont like that makes them want to avoid dungeons, and dealing with that mindset.

Sure, there are hardheads on the other side,
half the time the complaint people have isnt even about one side or the other side, its that when they are trying to do a dungeon, these two sides will have a big argument in the middle of the dungeon, and someone will rage quit, or vote kick.

a lot of people dont want to do that, they want to work together to beat a dungeon meta or not, without huge blow ups because 1 guy isnt following meta.

and no, that isnt confined just to lfgs that ask for speed clears/ zerk metas etc.

you think im trolling when i say people outside of the dungeon community think that dungeons are filled with drama and control freaks? look at the op, thats what people really think

1. He makes guides for getting things done fast. If you don’t follow the guides don’t join groups that care about doing things fast.

2. Attitude has nothing to do with it. You either follow the guides and play with people that care about the guides or don’t follow them and expect being kicked from those groups.

3.

a lot of people dont want to do that, they want to work together to beat a dungeon meta or not, without huge blow ups because 1 guy isnt following meta.

This was a thing 2.5 years ago. Nobody does dungeons to “work thgether and beat a duongen” these days.
Most players have already done the “beat a dungeon” step a few hundred times by now.

So find those players who haven’t or find those who are willing to be patient and tolerant. Don’t take it out on the rest of us just because you weren’t here 2.5 years ago and feel left out.

you missed the part where this happens in parties whether there is a zerker meta whatever request or not.

this is what happens when a normal player tries to play the game, and though the read the guides thing makes sense for hardcore dungeon running, it shouldnt really be the default expectation of non meta requested LFGs.

and yeah i have been playing the game from day 1, its not really about me, i expect crap to go wrong, and people to be aholes when i pug. Thing is, i found out the frequency of the drama is much lower in some other games, the question is why is that, and how can that be brought into this game without screwing everything up.

Bernie.8674:

phys.7689:

essentially, when the price of silk drops to the point its no longer worth gathering, then people stop gathering it, the supply falls, an the price goes up, then people gather it again, until people find the point that all parties agree is the real value of the item. If you dont like the price you are free to get it yourself.

Except that your claim makes no sense in the context of the current situation. Silk scraps are 2.21 silver. Thick leather sections are 0.09 silver. Are you seriously arguing that players are farming the hell out of leather, causing prices to plummet, while ignoring the silk that is valued over 24 times as high? You can claim that this is a supply side issue, but reality doesn’t agree.

phys.7689:

the difference between that and this, is that that since people cannot supply it directly, the supply does not adapt to the demand, and the price does not represent a value that people actually feel comfortable with, based on their daily needs.

Leather is obtained in the same way. How do you explain away the discrepancy between the two? Here’s how I explain it: ArenaNet artificially inflated the demand for silk. Over time the demand has grown faster than the supply. Unless supply is increased to meet that demand, prices will continue to grow. Relying on farmers to bolster that supply is not realistic. There is more than enough incentive for them to gather it now, but they don’t do so. Why is that? Some have claimed that it’s the lack of reliability, but I’m not so convinced. Leather suffers from the same condition, and it’s still plentiful. Adjusting the supply just isn’t enough.

The demand needs to be readjusted to match supply. There is no reason to require 1500 silk scraps for a single ascended piece when it’s running at over 2.2 silver a pop. That’s 33 gold worth of materials for once ascended item! Contrast that with the 1.3 gold that it would cost to buy 1500 thick leather sections. This is effectively pricing new non-heavy armor wearers out of their end game gear. If you think otherwise I’m willing to bet that you geared your characters back when silk was cheap.

its a supply side issue, because the supply does not adapt to the demand.

the problem with the supply being, that it doesnt react in tune with demand.

• irl, if an item is not worth it to produce, people stop producing it. Leather cannot stop production (enough) even when its worthless.
• irl, if an item is in high demand, more people start to supply it, or supplier make more. You cant really increase the supply of silk intentionally very well, Silk cannot increase production (enough) even when it is valuable.

the only way these sources can be adjusted is by government(anet) intervention. Which generally speaking is seen as an inferior, non responsive, and problematic means of dealing with the issue.

leather doesnt suffer the same issue, because it is a lot less useful, by their crafting design.
out of all the materials for crafting ascended the ratio of elonian leather to damask is 24:75 the ratio thick leather to silk is 3600:22500 this means essentially assuming all armor weights are being made equally, roughly 6 times as much silk is being consumed by ascended.

the reason farmers have not supplied more silk, is because it really isnt possible. The best way to get silk is to farm, you probably average the same amount, and they were already farming in that exact same way when silk was worth 8 copper. If silk drops, they will still produce it, because they have no choice, its a byproduct regular farming operations.

and thats where having an elastic supply comes in

If silk and leather was not an uncontrollable byproduct of general farming AND you had to intentionally get silk or leather, or whatever in order to gather it, you would never have had the huge surpluses, that made them think it was a good idea to make people burn 300 scraps a day, for 36 days just to produce one armor set.

DonQuack.9025:

I wouldnt mind being paid 1g per newb I carry. Its those 11k ap ones.

As for ffxiv. There is a difference in cutscenes. In gw2 the world stops. “No one” would care if someone watched the cutscene if it were like that here. Though the person might care as prolly can kill quite a few bosses in the time it takes a cutscene to play.

some people want people to skip still, but they wouldnt kick someone over it. but you go into a pug,
I think the fact that they have a duty finder AND an lfg like system helps a lot. The normals in gw2 join lfgs because thats the only system, and they want to get something done.
in ffxiv people join lfgs because they want something the duty finder doesnt offer, something specific, and they can set the options so they get close to what they are looking for.
you set up 2 warriors 1 mesmer and necro then only 2 warriors 1 mesmer and healer can join.

Dave.2536:

DonQuack.9025:

phys.7689:

I think the op, who was a lot more tactful, and probably respectful than me has a valid point. Something about something brings out more negative dungeon runs for the non proffesional dungeon player in this game than in other games.

Most other games have built in gear/level/role checks. The “casuals” cant play with “pro” Most other games have easily identifiable roles. Youre not going to find a healer who specs into earth damage just because.

The “problem” with gw2 is that everyone can.

And no offence intended but what games are you speaking of? I cant think of one mmo where the dungeon community isnt thought of as kittens by the “casuals” despite pretty much everything the “casuals” do is because of said community.

I’m pretty sure it’s FFXIV:ARR.

The community there is “nice” because they are bribed by the game to carry new players. That and there’s an inspect function and developed DPS meters so players have to be more honest when it comes to joining groups.

The “story mode” encounters are also easy enough in such a way that if someone does want to watch the cutscenes, the other people in the party are likely so highly geared that they can simply move on without the person watching.

FFXIV also has a much better chat system where you can actually see the chat from all the “groups” (guild + linkshell) you belong to all the time, instead of being forced to primarily represent one. This also makes it easier to find groups because when you ask in guild/linkshell chat for something you’re assured everyone in that group has seen your request.

if bribery is what it takes, hey whatever works.

at the end of the day all these little systems somehow make dungeons something a lot of people do, and they are generally less likely to go really really bad.

EcoRI.9273:

Here is what I suggest, have a “Beginner” check box in LFG that is always checked unless the player uncheck them. This option is autosaved so once you uncheck it will always be unchecked. This way we shift the blame in LFG where people can say, if you didn’t want to get kicked you shouldn’t have unchecked that beginner box.

i think there probably needs to be 3 options.
because a lot of people dont want to be thought of as beginner
novice, hero, and god of the arena
people can accept being a hero.

DonQuack.9025:

phys.7689:

I think the op, who was a lot more tactful, and probably respectful than me has a valid point. Something about something brings out more negative dungeon runs for the non proffesional dungeon player in this game than in other games.

Most other games have built in gear/level/role checks. The “casuals” cant play with “pro” Most other games have easily identifiable roles. Youre not going to find a healer who specs into earth damage just because.

The “problem” with gw2 is that everyone can.

And no offence intended but what games are you speaking of? I cant think of one mmo where the dungeon community isnt thought of as kittens by the “casuals” despite pretty much everything the “casuals” do is because of said community.

they got problems still of course, but they are less vocal and there are less incidents

The fact that their are harder roles, and gear minimums may be a factor.

Also im not just going off the general opinions, but i have literally pugged for like hours the other day and had no big beefs or rage quits, in gw2, i can usually go maybe 4 runs before there is some issue or another. People say thanks for the game, and good luck on your drops.

Perhaps its also because there is a clearer line between elite content and regular content.

regardless its not as bad.

Ok, i take back the statement that this forum is dark

Regardless, in game, dungeons tend to get negative more often than in other games.

I think the op, who was a lot more tactful, and probably respectful than me has a valid point. Something about something brings out more negative dungeon runs for the non proffesional dungeon player in this game than in other games.

I dont think this is actually a good thing for dungeon gameplay as a whole, i think that the more people who enjoy and play dungeons, the more likely they are to get better/more development. While its fine to have elite groups and special teams, the basic regular dungeon politics shouldnt feel unapproachable