Guild Wars 2

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

darkace.8925:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

a percieved problem is a real problem.

Which is easily fixed by changing the perception.

Then convince me that those needing to ore can focus-farm it with 100% reliability while those needing cloth cannot is unfair is a good thing. Convince me that inequity on both ends of the supply and demand equation for cloth compared to ore is a good thing.

The real problem was that silk was too expensive, the perceived problem is that it can only be fixed by introducing a direct farm, which is untrue.

Anet added additional indirect sources of silk during season 2 which lowered the silk value, so the problem is fixed already.

If they add direct silk nodes, silk price will fall to such a value that people wont feel that it is worth their time anymore to directly harvest it for an hour because you only get 3g worth of silk. So they rather earn 5 gold with something else in that hour and then buy the scraps.

you realized, that what you are describing, is essentially according to a lot of current economics, the best way to find a good price point the suppliers, and the buyers feel comfortable with?

essentially, when the price of silk drops to the point its no longer worth gathering, then people stop gathering it, the supply falls, an the price goes up, then people gather it again, until people find the point that all parties agree is the real value of the item. If you dont like the price you are free to get it yourself.

the difference between that and this, is that that since people cannot supply it directly, the supply does not adapt to the demand, and the price does not represent a value that people actually feel comfortable with, based on their daily needs.

The actual price on the tp IS the price that suppliers and consumers are comfortable with. The facts that silk scraps basically lost value all through Season 2 and the supply on the tp in that time rose by 400% a clear indications to me that supply exceeds demand for a long time now.

So why is there a need for people to directly farm silk now? It makes absolutely no sense.

the problem is, the supply does not adapt to the demand. Which is why they had to create these giant item sinks to compensate for the lack of value from overproduction.

There is over production, and the solution is over consumption, to the detriment of good game design when it comes to progression, inventory, general design philosophies, over importance of zerg and mindless play.

I am a little puzzled now as I dont know if you mean the overproduction of silk before ascended or the overproduction of silk we have going on since season 2 started?

I am still unsure what you expect direct silk farming to fix? Should the price of silk stay the same after direct farming is introduced, go up or go down?

I am saying the ascended recipe for cloth was created to compensate for the overproduction of silk.

Silk is over produced because it is essentially a function of the amount of enemies killed, not a function of how much silk the world wants to use.

Im not saying silk should go down, or go up, but i have a feeling it would go down if people had a realistic option to opt out of the tp silk trade. They do not, without taking an inordinate amount of time.

ideally?
less unintentional silk on the market
reduced silk requirements for recipes, because not as much useless silk is produced.

what would nodes achieve?
a more stable silk price that self corrects better for the demand
an opt out option for people who dont like the price, or just like to build things themselves.

Jerus.4350:

Point remains that you’re demonizing and generalizing an entire group because of some kittenes. These kittenes aren’t only in the dungeons though, the amount of negativity in map chats anywhere there is a good loot farm is just insane. “kittening idiots, you’re supposed to let this event fail, god learn how to play!” Should I read that and assume the entire open world PVE community is nothing but a bunch of kittens?

ok, i will say this, not all dungeoneers are aholes.

Point remains, whatever the cause, the chances of having dungeon blow ups/drama/kicks/quits/apathy seems higher here than in 2 other games i have played.

Seera.5916:

phys.7689:

hybrid.5027:

phys.7689:

DonQuack.9025:

phys.7689:

keep in mind this was dungeon with a story mode listing, highly likely it said nothing about skipping cutscenes, because no body writes that in the descriptions of dungeons.

You must not be NA. I see it all the time. Heck Im reasonably sure I saw someone post kitten in the funny lfg’s thread.

Also I can say I sometimes list my story mode with skipping cut scene ( no ap/speedrun/level req but skipping cutscene. And I have kicked people out for watching them.

I have reasons for kicking but meh, Im the devil, no real point in saying them.

screenshot is a bad word? or is it s doubled? s s s’s ss Ahh I see. " A ignore SS"

Also I dont give a rats bum about group majority. I made the rules. I listed it. I waited. I rule. until I get kicked atleast

well, honestly it doesnt really matter, just saying yall guys are not a welcoming bunch. So when some one is like why is the dungeon community so rigid and hostile? dont be like, what do you mean, we are the nicest guys you ever did meet.

Those he say yeah we are and what, well i may disagree with their ideology, but at least they arent saying its in his imagination.

Stop trolling. The dungeon community is extremely welcoming. We wouldn’t have mentor guides, create guides and do live streams if we didn’t want to help new people.

What we DON’T like is when new people come to our community, tell us we are evil, give us a list of demands and then end by saying that anet should change the game to eliminate everything we like about it. You think we should be welcoming of objectively stupid newcomers like that?

the dungeon community should actually be for everyone who likes the gameplay of dungeons.

See your response shows a lot here.

You want people to follow what you say, so you make guides, cool
if people dont follow what you say, they are the enemy, and are objectively stupid.

regardless of your rightness or wrongness about anything mechanic related, thats the attitude that people dont like that makes them want to avoid dungeons, and dealing with that mindset.

Sure, there are hardheads on the other side,
half the time the complaint people have isnt even about one side or the other side, its that when they are trying to do a dungeon, these two sides will have a big argument in the middle of the dungeon, and someone will rage quit, or vote kick.

a lot of people dont want to do that, they want to work together to beat a dungeon meta or not, without huge blow ups because 1 guy isnt following meta.

and no, that isnt confined just to lfgs that ask for speed clears/ zerk metas etc.

you think im trolling when i say people outside of the dungeon community think that dungeons are filled with drama and control freaks? look at the op, thats what people really think

But if an LFG clearly states that they are in the mood for doing the dungeon as fast possible, they shouldn’t be able to do that if someone joins the group who is new to the dungeon?

If the two groups of play styles (the speed runners and the casual runners) were respectful of each other and stayed out of each others’ playground unless they were willing to play the rules of the play ground, then there likely wouldn’t be a problem or a perception problem in the dungeon community.

And remember that each side has its jerks. Report, block, and move on. Don’t come here and vent and complain. You’re giving that jerk more power.

it doesnt just happen in lfg parties with speed clear req.

maha.7902:

You want people to follow what you say, so you make guides, cool
if people dont follow what you say, they are the enemy, and are objectively stupid.

No, it’s not that at all. We don’t like being demonised by people despite all of the effort and help we put in to bettering the community.

However, if people don’t want to follow our guides … that’s cool. That’s their choice. The problem is with people on both sides insulting each other with people throwing around the “elitist” boogeyman to describe anyone who -god forbid- actually wants to impose a standard on their LFG groups and then you have people on the other side condescendingly referring to other players as “play how you wants” or “casuals” – but the fact of the matter is, these two terms are simply thrown around in response to people being sick of the “community” demonising them and making out that dungeon runners are the literal scum of the earth and need to be deleted from the game.

you think im trolling when i say people outside of the dungeon community think that dungeons are filled with drama and control freaks? look at the op, thats what people really think

And the whole reason people think that is because of the drama queens rampant on this forum who either tell exaggerated stories, or true stories with certain details purposely omitted where they were kicked from groups they shouldn’t have even been a part of full stop.

it happens in the dungeons, you guys may think that this type of thing only happens when someone joins a zerk party with PVT, it doesnt. It happens in open games with no requirement, i seen people just sit there while a guy dies trying to run past mobs.(knowing he will just have to run it again, and maybe killing those 3 mobs will save time) I seen people rage quit because the non zerk party they joined is non zerk, but only after calling out all the other players for being newbs without zerk. I seen two guys argue for the entire length of the dungeon about who is right and who is wrong about whatever meta.

Its actually player experience that lead people to think the dungeon community sucks.
It happens in all games, but from what i have seen it seems more prevalent in this game.

hybrid.5027:

phys.7689:

DonQuack.9025:

phys.7689:

keep in mind this was dungeon with a story mode listing, highly likely it said nothing about skipping cutscenes, because no body writes that in the descriptions of dungeons.

You must not be NA. I see it all the time. Heck Im reasonably sure I saw someone post kitten in the funny lfg’s thread.

Also I can say I sometimes list my story mode with skipping cut scene ( no ap/speedrun/level req but skipping cutscene. And I have kicked people out for watching them.

I have reasons for kicking but meh, Im the devil, no real point in saying them.

screenshot is a bad word? or is it s doubled? s s s’s ss Ahh I see. " A ignore SS"

Also I dont give a rats bum about group majority. I made the rules. I listed it. I waited. I rule. until I get kicked atleast

well, honestly it doesnt really matter, just saying yall guys are not a welcoming bunch. So when some one is like why is the dungeon community so rigid and hostile? dont be like, what do you mean, we are the nicest guys you ever did meet.

Those he say yeah we are and what, well i may disagree with their ideology, but at least they arent saying its in his imagination.

Stop trolling. The dungeon community is extremely welcoming. We wouldn’t have mentor guides, create guides and do live streams if we didn’t want to help new people.

What we DON’T like is when new people come to our community, tell us we are evil, give us a list of demands and then end by saying that anet should change the game to eliminate everything we like about it. You think we should be welcoming of objectively stupid newcomers like that?

the dungeon community should actually be for everyone who likes the gameplay of dungeons.

See your response shows a lot here.

You want people to follow what you say, so you make guides, cool
if people dont follow what you say, they are the enemy, and are objectively stupid.

regardless of your rightness or wrongness about anything mechanic related, thats the attitude that people dont like that makes them want to avoid dungeons, and dealing with that mindset.

Sure, there are hardheads on the other side,
half the time the complaint people have isnt even about one side or the other side, its that when they are trying to do a dungeon, these two sides will have a big argument in the middle of the dungeon, and someone will rage quit, or vote kick.

a lot of people dont want to do that, they want to work together to beat a dungeon meta or not, without huge blow ups because 1 guy isnt following meta.

and no, that isnt confined just to lfgs that ask for speed clears/ zerk metas etc.

you think im trolling when i say people outside of the dungeon community think that dungeons are filled with drama and control freaks? look at the op, thats what people really think

DonQuack.9025:

phys.7689:

keep in mind this was dungeon with a story mode listing, highly likely it said nothing about skipping cutscenes, because no body writes that in the descriptions of dungeons.

You must not be NA. I see it all the time. Heck Im reasonably sure I saw someone post kitten in the funny lfg’s thread.

Also I can say I sometimes list my story mode with skipping cut scene ( no ap/speedrun/level req but skipping cutscene. And I have kicked people out for watching them.

I have reasons for kicking but meh, Im the devil, no real point in saying them.

screenshot is a bad word? or is it s doubled? s s s’s ss Ahh I see. " A ignore SS"

Also I dont give a rats bum about group majority. I made the rules. I listed it. I waited. I rule. until I get kicked atleast

well, honestly it doesnt really matter, just saying yall guys are not a welcoming bunch. So when some one is like why is the dungeon community so rigid and hostile? dont be like, what do you mean, we are the nicest guys you ever did meet.

Those he say yeah we are and what, well i may disagree with their ideology, but at least they arent saying its in his imagination.

Seera.5916:

phys.7689:

oxtred.7658:

Story mode should be made once per account? Do you even play this game?

yeah i meant charachter.

So someone with only one character who has done all of the story mode dungeons can’t hop on to help his buddy with doing a story mode dungeon?

What if Player 1 does Arah Story mode with some buddies before he gets to Victory or Death? Is he out of luck for finishing his personal story because he already did the dungeon?

Sorry, I think making story once per character will hurt more than it will help.

no i was correcting, you only HAVE to do it once per charachter, as is, you can do it as much as you want.

basically im saying the designed story mode to have minimal benefits, so people dont want to speed run it, so newbs can experience it normally.

Thaddeus.4891:

phys.7689:

if the “wishes” of your party are not the majority, then isnt just the wish of two people in the party?
2/5 of the people were a player who wanted to watch the scenes and their friend
1 guy tells them to skip the cutscene
apparently at least 1 other guy agrees with him.

Why do you keep talking about that case, noboby else is talking about that. We only heard one side of the story and its not like cutscene in Story mode is a big problem. That’s irrelevant. People complain about experienced vs casual, zerker vs non zerker, etc. Nobody is talking about these few times when somebody kicked someone because they watched a cutscene in a story mode. That’s a situation that don’t happen often.

its an example that shows, what the accepted norms are within this games dungeon community.
in other games, the thought of kicking people for watching cutscenes, is frowned upon. Here, it is generally approved, and understandable.

people in general population say they hate running dungeons because there is always some drama, or this expectation that you play perfectly or you get kicked, or people will call you newb if you arent doing everything as they expect it

and they are right,
there is post after post complaining about newbs, people who dont know the current meta, using a different weapon, etc.

The only surprising thing, is that some people here claiming otherwise. Yes, this dungeon community is pretty harsh why are you pretending it is not?

it doesnt really matter what the other side of the story is, because everything that was said was based on the only side presented. It could be that the op was lying, but people were discussing the principles, not the realities.

oxtred.7658:

Story mode should be made once per account? Do you even play this game?

yeah i meant charachter.

Lindbur.2537:

So when I do a dungeon and post in LFG with requirements, I am morally obligated to carry any and all people who do not comply with my requirements. Should I kick them I will be labeled as an evil elitist and scum of the earth for protecting my interests, while the person I kicked is hailed as a martyr for his noble sacrifice in the crusade against my fellow Mind Brains and Elitist Jaguars.

At least, your logic appears to imply so.

what requirements, it was a story dungeon. do you really think the lfg post said
story dungeon speed clear beserker experienced?

Cheezy.2039:

Since 95% of cutscenes are just two faces talking to each other, I don’t think it’s far fetched to think that ANet does not care about cutscenes in the story dungeons. If they want me to watch cut-scenes they have to remove the skip button à la Aetherpath. And many people dislike it for that reason.

Also, whether the kicking people were in the majority or not does not matter. If you don’t have respect for the wishes of your party… well, don’t expect them to keep you around. It is group content after all

if the “wishes” of your party are not the majority, then isnt just the wish of two people in the party?
2/5 of the people were a player who wanted to watch the scenes and their friend
1 guy tells them to skip the cutscene
apparently at least 1 other guy agrees with him.

so for all we know it would be 2 vs 2, i suppose the other 2 players should have shot first and pre-emptively kicked the other guys, then they can say they were the true wish of the party.

keep in mind this was dungeon with a story mode listing, highly likely it said nothing about skipping cutscenes, because no body writes that in the descriptions of dungeons.

point is, it would have been just as wrong for the two players watching the cutscenes to kick the other guys, but according to you guys, nope, its just who kicks first, you dont need a majority, just two people who can act first.

oh yeah, and they did intend people to watch story mode, hence why they called it story mode, made it something you only have to do once per account, and made the rewards substantially less, so that no one would be trying to speed run it for cash, and thus feel the need to rush people out of the cutscenes.

Its essentially like coming to the newbie area, and berating people for reading tutorial messages.
but yeah that makes perfect sense to you guys.

J Eberle.9312:

phys.7689:

When i do a dungeon, sometimes they stack, sometimes they dont, sometimes some one is new. I never kick someone for sucking, i dont kick someone for watching cutscenes, i dont kick someone for disagreeing with my plan.

You’re not the gold standard.

But fine, people are people they will use tools as they see fit, i cant force yall not to do whatever you want.

Glad you recognise this

just because you are the majority, doesnt mean you are right.

Or wrong.

you think that whatever you want to do is cool

Yes.

for playing the game as specifically intended

Bingo?

the dungeon community is pretty screwed up.

Thanks, I like to think of myself as top kittenhole around here.

As i have already seen since this got moved to this sub forum.

Trash can forum*

hey, least your honest about it. Anets fault for giving you the gun if they didnt want you to use it.
but its still a jerk move!
carry on.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

darkace.8925:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

a percieved problem is a real problem.

Which is easily fixed by changing the perception.

Then convince me that those needing to ore can focus-farm it with 100% reliability while those needing cloth cannot is unfair is a good thing. Convince me that inequity on both ends of the supply and demand equation for cloth compared to ore is a good thing.

The real problem was that silk was too expensive, the perceived problem is that it can only be fixed by introducing a direct farm, which is untrue.

Anet added additional indirect sources of silk during season 2 which lowered the silk value, so the problem is fixed already.

If they add direct silk nodes, silk price will fall to such a value that people wont feel that it is worth their time anymore to directly harvest it for an hour because you only get 3g worth of silk. So they rather earn 5 gold with something else in that hour and then buy the scraps.

you realized, that what you are describing, is essentially according to a lot of current economics, the best way to find a good price point the suppliers, and the buyers feel comfortable with?

essentially, when the price of silk drops to the point its no longer worth gathering, then people stop gathering it, the supply falls, an the price goes up, then people gather it again, until people find the point that all parties agree is the real value of the item. If you dont like the price you are free to get it yourself.

the difference between that and this, is that that since people cannot supply it directly, the supply does not adapt to the demand, and the price does not represent a value that people actually feel comfortable with, based on their daily needs.

The actual price on the tp IS the price that suppliers and consumers are comfortable with. The facts that silk scraps basically lost value all through Season 2 and the supply on the tp in that time rose by 400% a clear indications to me that supply exceeds demand for a long time now.

So why is there a need for people to directly farm silk now? It makes absolutely no sense.

the problem is, the supply does not adapt to the demand. Which is why they had to create these giant item sinks to compensate for the lack of value from overproduction.

There is over production, and the solution is over consumption, to the detriment of good game design when it comes to progression, inventory, general design philosophies, over importance of zerg and mindless play.

its really odd, because they try to nerf mindless play and zerging from time to time, but most of their reward systems encourage it.

the set up of silk and ascended encourages people to overproduce and overfarm and undercut, because if you need 300 silk a day, and you spent 1.5 hours in a zerg farm to get 200, you need those items you didnt want to sell fast before the timer resets, better put them 1c lower than the lowest seller, and there are ton of people out there doing the same thing, because it is the most logical solution.

Astral Projections.7320:

Halvorn.9831:

After having read 6 pages of discussion (not easy at some times, I can tell you) I still do not know what the thread is really about. Is it that the gold price is too high for additional bank tabs/bags?

The thread is about people who don’t want to earn enough gold to buy the gems nor do they want to buy gems with real money. Therefore they want the items out of the gem store and the price artificially capped at a few gold so they can get it without paying money or exerting themselves in game to earn the gold.

to be perfectly honest, i think the point is that bank tabs are prohibitive for new players, they would rather have a scaled price based on how many tabs they own, like you generally see in other games that dont sell tabs.

However since that would require it be gold, and not gems, he suggests it should be gold.

what he is really saying is, how as a newish player is he supposed to get 80 gold or whatever for a bank tab.
he has a point, however, even though people may not love it, its one the things they sell, that is actually useful, therefore it is probably one of the things that makes people want to use the gem store, and thus supports anet.

I dont think the current inventory is completely unmanageable, if you use salvage kits, the TP, bags and such. but, its not very comfortable either.

Cheezy.2039:

phys.7689:

no offense intended, and it isnt everyone, but the fact that more than half the people in a thread were supporting kicking people for watching cutscenes during a story dungeon (which means its unlikely it was advertised as speed run) Heck even the guy who is supposed to be your representitive to anet said that kicking people for watching cutscenes in a story dungeon, which by the way is intended to be for story, and has less rewards than other dungeons for this purpose, is perfectly cool.

You forgot to mention that the OP in that thread was specificly asked by his party to stop watching cutscenes. Since he kept doing that he fully deserved to be kicked.

The fact that they kicked him at the endboss is a bad thing and no one in that thread supported it either. But not following what your party wants you to do? Yes, you indeed deserve to be kicked.

the op in that thread was with his friend.
one person asked him to stop,

it only takes two people to kick

was it a majority vote? who knows, regardless, just because you are the majority, doesnt mean you are right.

i can guarantee you when the devs made guild war 2 story missions, they did not expect people to be kicked for actually reading the story.

you think that whatever you want to do is cool because the majority says so?

the fact that yall actually believe that nothing is wrong with the idea of kicking people from dungeons, for playing the game as specifically intended, is why the dungeon community is pretty screwed up.

When i do a dungeon, sometimes they stack, sometimes they dont, sometimes some one is new. I never kick someone for sucking, i dont kick someone for watching cutscenes, i dont kick someone for disagreeing with my plan.

The kick command was meant for griefing, afk, offline, cheating, and harassment, it wasnt really created with the intent that 2 people would use it to enforce whatever they felt like on all the other players.

But fine, people are people they will use tools as they see fit, i cant force yall not to do whatever you want. But please, dont try to act like the op is crazy for saying yall arent a welcoming community, with kitten dark side, you will demonstrate that in various ways before this thread is over is my guess.

As i have already seen since this got moved to this sub forum.

another game i play has a few features that make it overall a better system though it has flaws.

• They have a party finder, which is like lfg
• they have duty finder which automatically places you in the first group that wants to do your selected instance
  this separates the people who have a clear strong desire for specific setups, or special needs, and people who just want to do content.
• vote kicking requires 50% at least to pass (though this can be a problem in 4 man groups)
• leaving a party 3 times gives you a penalty, if the party is currently full.
• party can vote to abandon the duty with no penalties
• players new to a dungeon give bonus tokens for those.

All together this tends to make people using duty finder slightly less aholish.
newbs and midrange people have a means of joining content where they are not expected to be perfect.
Which isnt to say they arent aholish at all, There are still going to be kitten moments, but overall pugging is not a stressful experience, and you can literally do it all day without much problem.
id say 50% of gw2 pug dungeons i have done, have some aholish behavior/moments, and generally have a fairly large disconnect between how players think things should be done.

Jerus.4350:

The toxicity in PUG dungeons has a lot to do with what groups you join. A “p1” will generally be a lot less annoying than a “p1 zerk, exp, ping gear”

As someone who’s played a lot fo MMOs over 16 years, GW2 really isn’t any worse than other ones, it simply has this LFG system which has people lumped together a lot more often. In other games the speed runners will generally keep to themselves, here they post an LFG and get people who aren’t really set up and ready for htat, or think they are but really aren’t, and that’s where the toxicity starts.

I do take offense to the idea that the speed runners are at fault though, especially that the people active on the forums are bad. You have guilds like NOOB and ARES that actively try to invite people who are interested in learning dungeons and teach them, yet here we sit being bad mouthed for being too “elitist”. Show an interest in getting better and the people who are int he know will love you. I’m FAR from perfect, but I’ve felt nothing but love from the dungeon community, and I really feel that’s because I try to learn from them, and constantly improve. Go into a dungeon with a chip on your shoulder and start telling people they’re dumb for running things efficiently and sure you’re going to be met with the same toxicity you’re emitting.

There are bad apples in any group though, I’ve seen just as much hate and toxicity in map chats in silverwastes as I have in my time PUGing dungeons. Again though, that goes both ways, both the side of people expecting perfection, and those complaining because they’re unable to keep up.

If you want to do “speed runs” (lets be honest speed runs in LFG aren’t real speed runs) take a minute and ask questions of those that are more knowledgable, learn to play better, and do your best to improve. Eventually you won’t have any issues.

Personally some of my best times playing were in Arah “p1” groups where I get to play with some new players and lead them through teaching them encounters to the best of my ability (which again is limited). I do really enjoy my new guild that does real speed run tactics though as I feel pushed. It’s all different environments and I try to fit myself to the environment I’m in to the best of my ability, and I’ve very rarely has any real issues.

TL : DR – don’t join groups you aren’t a fit for, and try to play better and try and fit the groups you join and you won’t have issues. I concede therea re bad apples, but lumping everyone together is pretty dumb too.

no offense intended, and it isnt everyone, but the fact that more than half the people in a thread were supporting kicking people for watching cutscenes during a story dungeon (which means its unlikely it was advertised as speed run) Heck even the guy who is supposed to be your representitive to anet said that kicking people for watching cutscenes in a story dungeon, which by the way is intended to be for story, and has less rewards than other dungeons for this purpose, is perfectly cool.

That told me a lot about the dungeon community, although there were some people, like yourself i believe, who said it probably was kitten move.

now maybe the OP was lying, or whatever, but peoples argument in the thread amounted to, my way or the high way, because i said so, they kept talking about what the others should follow what the group says, and ignored the fact that it only takes 2 people to kick someone, so its not even necessarilly a majority that wanted a kick.

they may be nice guys to you, but they represented themselves as the type of people who think its ok to destroy people time and effort on whim of their own, and fairly unflexible, unforgiving, and unwelcoming.

Caeledh.5437:

Generally speaking I think GW2’s designers have done a really good job of creating a pro-social play environment. Design really encourages players helping each other out.

Except for dungeons. I wouldn’t say my experience has been universally bad in dungeons. It’s generally been ok. But in terms of both frequency and severity, GW2 easily tops all other MMOs for dungeon nastiness.

There is a definite upside to being able to farm dungeons quickly for gold, fragments, tokens etc. But the downside is that there are a lot of very uptight and impatient players who have mega rage meltdowns at the slightest hiccup.

I was speaking to someone earlier in the week who was asking about the best ways to get gold in map chat and I naturally suggested dungeons. But they’d tried that and seen one of those meltdowns and were so not keen to see any more.

I think this aspect of the game’s design might need more thought.

yeah all you have to do is take a look at the dungeon forums to realize the hardcore dungeon community is a pretty nasty group. And yeah thats in every game, but moreso here. That said, many of them dont pug(without a fairly big elitist warning in the lfg) anyhow, so the ragers you are finding are generally not the elite, but the want to be elites.

Linken.6345:

phys.7689:

Crossaber.8934:

dietzero.3514:

Oh, 1 hour a day. Still, you rate your time as worth something, yet you claim those who spend their time gaining gold in game are doing it for free. You are being hypocritical.

Wait. You said 1 hour of game play a day EACH WEEK. Why add the weekly part?

1 hr/day = one hour PER day. This is common sense i suppose.

Play time is free, you buy a game for entertainment. You don’t use your working time for gaming right? You use your free time to play and the time you spent you got entertainment out of it. Did you pay extra money for every sec you spend in game? None, so that your play time is free.

If you spend too much time playing that affect any of your working, learning, social, resting time that made you think your play time is not free.

Dude, you need help seriously. I whole heartedly that you are not.

Well in some ways he is right, you know that player time has value, you are paying arenanet real money to get gold, which is essentially other players time. You know time has value, thats why you only have so little of it to play.

Now his solution, may not really explain how making this change will be of benefit to arenanet, but he is right that you should realize you are willing to pay people to grind for you, but at the same time you say their time has no value. Then why is it something you are willing to pay for?

No he is saying that the little time he have is valuable so he pays to be on equal footing with the ones who have alot of time.

Why should all games give everything to people who have a bunch of time and no money?

This way the guy with a bunch of time can gain gold and buy what ever he needs for ingame gold with a transfer fee when turning it into gems.
They guy with little time can take some of his cash and buy what ever he needs for gems.
The gaming company gain money on the people with little time and regulate the influx of gold in the economy with the cut on gold to gem transfers its a win win for all 3.

Edit
If you think it takes to much gold to buy said item then fork up some real money bub.

i never said the proposition was a horrible one, I simply said that peoples time is valuable.
I never said they should give everything to people with time and no money. Though, people who play the game, bought the game, and they will probably by the expansion too, so yeah they should definately give paying customers a satisfactory experience.

I see why the initial poster believes that having tabs cost more the more you get would be a more satisfying experience, and they probably created too much inventory, but i dont think his proposal as it is, would fly.

rotten.9753:

Wanze.8410:

The real problem was that silk was too expensive, the perceived problem is that it can only be fixed by introducing a direct farm, which is untrue.

Anet added additional indirect sources of silk during season 2 which lowered the silk value, so the problem is fixed already.

If they add direct silk nodes, silk price will fall to such a value that people wont feel that it is worth their time anymore to directly harvest it for an hour because you only get 3g worth of silk. So they rather earn 5 gold with something else in that hour and then buy the scraps.

They should lower the required amount of silk to get a spool of weaving thread. That item is clearly the source of the steep price of silk. There was too much silk in the market making its price really low. But when ascended armour crafting came plus they increased the needed silk scraps thrice it crashed its price. It should be temporary solution and reverted long time ago. Silk won’t be @8c even with 100 scraps per one bolt of damask because even mithril, which is much more abundant, is @45c.

Yes, they added additional source of silk in season 2 but that was also temporary, silk price has gone up recently.

mithril is consumed in vast quanitities by precursor attempts.

So perhaps the solution should have been legendary armors, but then the market would really combust, with no way to adjust the supply for the demand.

Mirta.5029:

Shiyo.3578:

It made sense at first, now it no longer does that the supply of silk isn’t so insanely high with no use.

They need to fix it.

I rather they fixed leather by increasing its consumption. And gossamer, as gossamer is hitting the floor now. I think that silk price isn’t that bad right now.

silk price isnt bad for one silk, the problem is for its main use, you need 300 a day, or 7200 for an armorset.

they can increase leather consumption, and gossamer, but that will just recreate the problem.
fact is, the supply is just too high, and inelastic, unless they can create a method for consuming these materials, that isnt a form of main progression, and is needed over, and over again, they will have the same issues in terms of people not enjoying having to collect/grind gold for items by the 500-1000s

Wanze.8410:

darkace.8925:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

a percieved problem is a real problem.

Which is easily fixed by changing the perception.

Then convince me that those needing to ore can focus-farm it with 100% reliability while those needing cloth cannot is unfair is a good thing. Convince me that inequity on both ends of the supply and demand equation for cloth compared to ore is a good thing.

The real problem was that silk was too expensive, the perceived problem is that it can only be fixed by introducing a direct farm, which is untrue.

Anet added additional indirect sources of silk during season 2 which lowered the silk value, so the problem is fixed already.

If they add direct silk nodes, silk price will fall to such a value that people wont feel that it is worth their time anymore to directly harvest it for an hour because you only get 3g worth of silk. So they rather earn 5 gold with something else in that hour and then buy the scraps.

you realized, that what you are describing, is essentially according to a lot of current economics, the best way to find a good price point the suppliers, and the buyers feel comfortable with?

essentially, when the price of silk drops to the point its no longer worth gathering, then people stop gathering it, the supply falls, an the price goes up, then people gather it again, until people find the point that all parties agree is the real value of the item. If you dont like the price you are free to get it yourself.

the difference between that and this, is that that since people cannot supply it directly, the supply does not adapt to the demand, and the price does not represent a value that people actually feel comfortable with, based on their daily needs.

Behellagh.1468:

phys.7689:

Behellagh.1468:

Ignoring the time gate of crafting Damask, light armor always required twice as much cloth as either medium or heavy. Ascended armor simply maintains this relationship. It’s consistent.

An exotic light chest piece needs 2 Hardened Leather Sections (T6) and 20 Gossamer Scraps (T6). An exotic heavy chest piece needs 10 Orichalcum Ore (T6) and 12 Gossamer Scraps (T6).

Now in the case of ascended light chest piece, it’s one Elonian Leather Square and 8 Bolts of Damask. An ascended heavy chest piece needs Five Deldrimor Steel and 4 Bolts of Damask.

So the basic formula of cloth for insignia plus either cloth/leather/ore is used across all armor formulas. They are not intentionally picking on light armor. Now since they put the gate on refining ascended mats, that’s what makes light armor take nearly twice as long to grind out. But the time gate was there so the Richie Rich’s of the game wouldn’t get ascended exceptionally fast. Same reasoning behind charged crystals. Sets everybody on an even footing.

yes and it has always been a flawed relationship, but more so with needing twice as many teir 5 silk for the time gated material, and changing silk to require 3 scraps. thats gathering per day swing of 150 or double the amount.

Not to mention at the start cloth was also in high demand, with lower supply, which caused cloth classes to pay more per peice. I remember leveling clothcraft was a real pain because it was nigh impossible to get the silk you needed (back then you had to spend your gold on new gears, trait manuals, etc so you didnt have any to spare)

Time made this irrelevant as people out grew the need for cloth, but still keep getting it anyway, (so it became dirt cheap) they totally forgot this basic flaw with their crafting design, and continued it later with much higher stakes. and here we are, months later, and ascended cloth is twice the headache to get and takes extra time, because of a number of bad descions in its design.

the ritchie riches still get everything fast because they pay some one else to do it, and buy the final peices The richie riches had it first day as well by paying people for their daily threads back then as well, they just had to pay a lot.

its a just a really bad design.
It was a bad design to begin with at launch,
then they made it worse, mithrilium needs 1/3rd the amount of teir 5 a day, and its easier to get.

so end result? clothies work harder, and take longer for the same result.
the endgame progression of a cloth charachter is longer, more to buy, or takes twice as long if you try not to buy it.

It’s not the 2 to3 change in silk. Thick Leather is also needs 3 to refine, it was also and still has a glut in supply available at minimum price. The requirement in needing 100 silk bolts versus 50 of the refined leather and metal T5 mats the other two refined ascended mat certainly hurt.

But having problems gathering enough cloth mats, including silk before ascended hit, that’s laughable. Silk was at 8c @ 4 million. I get jute and silk all the time and when I played the mid level zones I got plenty of cotton, linen and wool. Just didn’t hang around those zones, maybe I should and make a quick buck.

if you look back at the initial prices, and compare them to each other, you see that for a long time, cloths were more expensive than most other basic materials
compare the first 5 months
jute to copper
cotton to iron
wool to iron
linen to platinum

only mithril has had better value, and thats probably due to the precursor system.
the cloth situation has always been a bad one.

Crossaber.8934:

dietzero.3514:

Oh, 1 hour a day. Still, you rate your time as worth something, yet you claim those who spend their time gaining gold in game are doing it for free. You are being hypocritical.

Wait. You said 1 hour of game play a day EACH WEEK. Why add the weekly part?

1 hr/day = one hour PER day. This is common sense i suppose.

Play time is free, you buy a game for entertainment. You don’t use your working time for gaming right? You use your free time to play and the time you spent you got entertainment out of it. Did you pay extra money for every sec you spend in game? None, so that your play time is free.

If you spend too much time playing that affect any of your working, learning, social, resting time that made you think your play time is not free.

Dude, you need help seriously. I whole heartedly that you are not.

Well in some ways he is right, you know that player time has value, you are paying arenanet real money to get gold, which is essentially other players time. You know time has value, thats why you only have so little of it to play.

Now his solution, may not really explain how making this change will be of benefit to arenanet, but he is right that you should realize you are willing to pay people to grind for you, but at the same time you say their time has no value. Then why is it something you are willing to pay for?

Essence Snow.3194:

John Smith.4610:

I would be less concerned with the global economic ramifications than the fact that adding a vendor value isn’t an elegant solution, you should get something for that material that isn’t 2c, because 2c never feels good and just adds to the money supply.

edit: double post for forum formatting

That’s pretty easy right? Make more uses for bricks that aren’t gated by things like t6 mats and/or t7mats. It acts as a gold sink via thermocatalytic reagents, a karma sink via obby shards and gets rid of dust. Take a look at what we currently have, evaluate why they don’t work as brick sinks, and create something that doesn’t fall to the same shortcomings.

problem is coming up with something people want, but are not expected to get, that enough people would buy into to remove tons of materials.

Behellagh.1468:

Ignoring the time gate of crafting Damask, light armor always required twice as much cloth as either medium or heavy. Ascended armor simply maintains this relationship. It’s consistent.

An exotic light chest piece needs 2 Hardened Leather Sections (T6) and 20 Gossamer Scraps (T6). An exotic heavy chest piece needs 10 Orichalcum Ore (T6) and 12 Gossamer Scraps (T6).

Now in the case of ascended light chest piece, it’s one Elonian Leather Square and 8 Bolts of Damask. An ascended heavy chest piece needs Five Deldrimor Steel and 4 Bolts of Damask.

So the basic formula of cloth for insignia plus either cloth/leather/ore is used across all armor formulas. They are not intentionally picking on light armor. Now since they put the gate on refining ascended mats, that’s what makes light armor take nearly twice as long to grind out. But the time gate was there so the Richie Rich’s of the game wouldn’t get ascended exceptionally fast. Same reasoning behind charged crystals. Sets everybody on an even footing.

yes and it has always been a flawed relationship, but more so with needing twice as many teir 5 silk for the time gated material, and changing silk to require 3 scraps. thats gathering per day swing of 150 or double the amount.

Not to mention at the start cloth was also in high demand, with lower supply, which caused cloth classes to pay more per peice. I remember leveling clothcraft was a real pain because it was nigh impossible to get the silk you needed (back then you had to spend your gold on new gears, trait manuals, etc so you didnt have any to spare)

Time made this irrelevant as people out grew the need for cloth, but still keep getting it anyway, (so it became dirt cheap) they totally forgot this basic flaw with their crafting design, and continued it later with much higher stakes. and here we are, months later, and ascended cloth is twice the headache to get and takes extra time, because of a number of bad descions in its design.

the ritchie riches still get everything fast because they pay some one else to do it, and buy the final peices The richie riches had it first day as well by paying people for their daily threads back then as well, they just had to pay a lot.

its a just a really bad design.
It was a bad design to begin with at launch,
then they made it worse, mithrilium needs 1/3rd the amount of teir 5 a day, and its easier to get.

so end result? clothies work harder, and take longer for the same result.
the endgame progression of a cloth charachter is longer, more to buy, or takes twice as long if you try not to buy it.

pdavis.8031:

phys.7689

a percieved problem is a real problem. They create these systems to engage and encourage people to continue to play.

the fact that people arent satisfied with the pacing is a real problem
the amount of people who say screw this ascended crap is real problem. Its not supposed to be the type of thing people reject.

the system is poorly designed,
Why exactly is the design such that someone has to work harder to achieve the same goal for a different charachter?

why is a cloth person taking more days, gathering more base items, that take longer to gather, than another class? does this make sense from a design standpoint?

you rolled necromancer, so it will take you an extra 7 days to get armor? and you will have to work twice as hard to get it?

Having a couple of light classes (necro and ele) it doesn’t seem “unfair” to me at all. Sure I need to work a bit harder, and take a few extra days to get what I need. It it so broken and such a poor design that it makes the game unbearable? Not in the slightest. I knew what I was getting into what I rolled those classes. I don’t think of myself as a special snowflake that deserves anything in-game at all.

Also a percieved problem and a real problem are 2 very different things. One is the idea that something is broken and needs to be fixed because it doesn’t line up with a particular point of view. A real problem is something that everyone can agree is broke and needs to be fixed. It also has no idealogical attachments that it is broken.

And we forget that it was designed this way on purpose. Using metrics and numbers that we don’t have access to. So while it may appear that the amount of damask (and thus silk) is way off balance. We have no idea how much silk is entering the game at any given point, and how much is being destroyed. If we had access to those numbers it may just be that it is actually a balance as the input of silk is far greater than we think it is.

We only see the results of the system itself. We don’t see all the factors it takes or how it works. It’s one thing to say that it’s broken and unfair only seeing the results, and quite another to see how the system works, what factors are determined, and what not and then making a determination as to whether or not it’s broken.

a poor design is a poor design.
ascended is best in slot, therefore it is , progression based.
the fact that it takes more time and effort to get the same gear rating as another class is exactly like them deciding cloth armor classes should get 15% less exp than heavy armor classes.
regardless of how many metrics, and what your design intent may have been you can get things wrong.

http://engineeringfailures.org/

its just reality, no one is perfect and many times designs fail or have to be reworked.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

a percieved problem is a real problem.

Which is easily fixed by changing the perception.

altering perception is is basically the final solution only when you have failed at other solutions.

what it means is that you as an engineer, or designer have given up on solving the problem, so the best thing is to learn to deal with it.

i want to make a faster car
solution
dont want a faster car.

better solution
make a faster car

pdavis.8031:

phys.7689:

Brother Grimm.5176:

There is a difference between a full revamp of the gathering system (silk from lave, etc.) and adding some generic cloth and leather nodes (like the home instance ones) into the game. Never said it could not be MADE to make sense but that would be a significant amount of work.

As pointed out, the REAL reason they don’t exist is the economic one. Just because individual players may feel they are “short” of Silk does not mean the overall material supply NEEDs more Silk and “cloth nodes” (no matter how they get put in the game) would certainly increase the overall supply in game.

i dont think the complaint is that they are short on silk, its that they dont feel they have a realistic method for obtaining it in a timely fashion.

essentially people trying to get ascended feel like they are supposed to get 300 silk scraps per day. They decide they dont want to spend their gold for it so they try to get it through gameplay, it takes them 2-3 hours, and they think that sucks.

they wonder why 6 gold worth of materials costs 2-3 hours of gameplay to obtain.

The current system essentially forces them to market, and encourages them to do whatever gold grind they have probably done to death by now, and are somewhat bored of.

that said i agree its unlikely to change, its something that carries development time and risk

So basically it’s not a “real” problem, but a “percieved” problem. The players don’t want to spend the time actually doing what it takes to get it, because it “takes to much time” and “it’s not cost effective”. So they turn to the market, for such an in demand item, and complain the costs are too high.

Of course the costs are high, it’s a high demand item that many people feel they “need” to go to the TP in order to get it. Where each purchase only increases the prices. Which in turn causes more people to think the only way to aquire it is to farm gold and buy it off the TP, because it’s more “efficient”. Ad Infinitum.

So basically, it’s not that silk uses 3 scraps per bolt, and 100 bolts per damask, it’s that player “feel” they need to have it sooner rather than later. And that in order to get it sooner they need to run a bunch of dungeons per day in order to by the increasing price of silk. Which is the very crux of the “issue”. People don’t want to do the work to get it. Some of us have speculated that there around around 3000 sources of silk in game (it’s not confirmed, but a very reasonable number looking at a combination of bags, salvage items, and light armor.)

a percieved problem is a real problem. They create these systems to engage and encourage people to continue to play.

the fact that people arent satisfied with the pacing is a real problem
the amount of people who say screw this ascended crap is real problem. Its not supposed to be the type of thing people reject.

the system is poorly designed,
Why exactly is the design such that someone has to work harder to achieve the same goal for a different charachter?

why is a cloth person taking more days, gathering more base items, that take longer to gather, than another class? does this make sense from a design standpoint?

you rolled necromancer, so it will take you an extra 7 days to get armor? and you will have to work twice as hard to get it?

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Brother Grimm.5176:

There is a difference between a full revamp of the gathering system (silk from lave, etc.) and adding some generic cloth and leather nodes (like the home instance ones) into the game. Never said it could not be MADE to make sense but that would be a significant amount of work.

As pointed out, the REAL reason they don’t exist is the economic one. Just because individual players may feel they are “short” of Silk does not mean the overall material supply NEEDs more Silk and “cloth nodes” (no matter how they get put in the game) would certainly increase the overall supply in game.

i dont think the complaint is that they are short on silk, its that they dont feel they have a realistic method for obtaining it in a timely fashion.

essentially people trying to get ascended feel like they are supposed to get 300 silk scraps per day. They decide they dont want to spend their gold for it so they try to get it through gameplay, it takes them 2-3 hours, and they think that sucks.

they wonder why 6 gold worth of materials costs 2-3 hours of gameplay to obtain.

The current system essentially forces them to market, and encourages them to do whatever gold grind they have probably done to death by now, and are somewhat bored of.

that said i agree its unlikely to change, its something that carries development time and risk

So they want to stop grinding gold because its boring and rather run from one node to the next because they think its fun but it isnt rewarded enough?

because the entire reason you need to do 2-3 hours of direct play for silk is because they overproduced it and gave it to everyone regardless of their desire for it.

ascended silk was designed to solve a problem for over abundance of silk, it was not designed with actual gameplay of getting silk/crafting/progressing in mind, thats probably why it is so unsatisfying.

also a node is only form of solution, the real key, is a way to get cloth, with intent. And im throwing in that the amount of cloth produced without intent should be lowered.

intent doesnt have to be nodes, but it has to be a descion that is made, with a trade off, that is how you create things of value.

Brother Grimm.5176:

There is a difference between a full revamp of the gathering system (silk from lave, etc.) and adding some generic cloth and leather nodes (like the home instance ones) into the game. Never said it could not be MADE to make sense but that would be a significant amount of work.

As pointed out, the REAL reason they don’t exist is the economic one. Just because individual players may feel they are “short” of Silk does not mean the overall material supply NEEDs more Silk and “cloth nodes” (no matter how they get put in the game) would certainly increase the overall supply in game.

i dont think the complaint is that they are short on silk, its that they dont feel they have a realistic method for obtaining it in a timely fashion.

essentially people trying to get ascended feel like they are supposed to get 300 silk scraps per day. They decide they dont want to spend their gold for it so they try to get it through gameplay, it takes them 2-3 hours, and they think that sucks.

they wonder why 6 gold worth of materials costs 2-3 hours of gameplay to obtain.

The current system essentially forces them to market, and encourages them to do whatever gold grind they have probably done to death by now, and are somewhat bored of.

that said i agree its unlikely to change, its something that carries development time and risk

Windsagio.1340:

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

Astral Projections.7320:

Walks into a brick and mortar store
Tells the management there, he wants them to reduce prices for items because it’s inconvenient to be without these items and he doesn’t want to spend money on them.
Management agrees and reduces prices.

Yeah, I can definitely see that happening.

It’s more like going into a Gamestop and saying “Hey, if I work at the store for 3 hours, will you give me a copy of GTA 5?”

Player’s time is less valuable to them than their money, so they want to pay the less valuable commodity.

lol you realize that is probably essentially how they get a lot of their employees? And its only some players, i honestly rarely have converted gold to gems because you actually end up working harder for the same thing

The difference is that the employees are paid, and yes get an employee discount, but still have to pay $$$ out in the end.

yeah they work in the store, then they get a game.
In fact its actually a great proposition for the store owners, its probably illegal in some way though.

I can imagine them paying people below minimum wage in games they got as trade ins instead of real cash, and people loving it.
work for me for 2 days and i give you gta V. never mind it actually translates to 4 dollars an hour.

Astral Projections.7320:

phys.7689:

Astral Projections.7320:

Walks into a brick and mortar store
Tells the management there, he wants them to reduce prices for items because it’s inconvenient to be without these items and he doesn’t want to spend money on them.
Management agrees and reduces prices.

Yeah, I can definitely see that happening.

actually this happens all the time, its why you will often find different deals, locally even in fast food chains like mcdonalds, and if you haggle with owner in a store, you can often get better deals.
People think things are just the way they are, but people who try, often find out its open to negotiation.

but you got to give em a worthy incentive.

i know a dude who knocked like 4 thousand dollars off the cost of a pool table, and 20% and tax free of various retail goods. Its not my way, but yeah it happens.

Then what is the worthy incentive to ANet to remove the gem price for these items? What does ANet gain that makes it worthwhile to lose that income? I haven’t yet seen an answer to that.

Just saying, I want, is not an incentive.

well thats up to the people saying to switch it to gold, im just pointing out that things are a lot more negotiable than people tend to think.

Windsagio.1340:

Astral Projections.7320:

Walks into a brick and mortar store
Tells the management there, he wants them to reduce prices for items because it’s inconvenient to be without these items and he doesn’t want to spend money on them.
Management agrees and reduces prices.

Yeah, I can definitely see that happening.

It’s more like going into a Gamestop and saying “Hey, if I work at the store for 3 hours, will you give me a copy of GTA 5?”

Player’s time is less valuable to them than their money, so they want to pay the less valuable commodity.

lol you realize that is probably essentially how they get a lot of their employees? And its only some players, i honestly rarely have converted gold to gems because you actually end up working harder for the same thing

Astral Projections.7320:

Walks into a brick and mortar store
Tells the management there, he wants them to reduce prices for items because it’s inconvenient to be without these items and he doesn’t want to spend money on them.
Management agrees and reduces prices.

Yeah, I can definitely see that happening.

actually this happens all the time, its why you will often find different deals, locally even in fast food chains like mcdonalds, and if you haggle with owner in a store, you can often get better deals.
People think things are just the way they are, but people who try, often find out its open to negotiation.

but you got to give em a worthy incentive.

i know a dude who knocked like 4 thousand dollars off the cost of a pool table, and 20% and tax free of various retail goods. Its not my way, but yeah it happens.

Behellagh.1468:

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

About the value thing, there’s no sensible reason for people to want this change if they didn’t feel that gold had lower real value than gems.

This is one of those ‘hey I have this great idea that will make it so I don’t have to spend money I don’t want to spend!’ threads.

actually its probably because the gem market doesnt really track the ingame gold value of individual items very well.
people may think a new costume is worth 90 gold, but it doesnt mean they think a black lion kit is worth 20 gold.

however to be honest, i doubt a bank slot would be cheaper than 90 gold anyhow

But prices are set at cash value of gems. They though a BLSK was worth 300 gems on day one or $3.75 while an armor skin set was 800 gems or $10. Now maybe the price was set because they were giving them away so when you get one you might feel happy about getting 300 gems/$3.75 item as a drop.

The point is they thought that a BLSK was worth 3/8ths the price of an armor skin set. Doesn’t matter if it’s cash or gold bought gems that ratio was that since day one. So it doesn’t matter if they track it or not.

the thing is, the value of in demand items scales in terms of gold, to whatever people are willing to pay, in terms of gold. But the prices of items in the black lion store do not, in terms of real cash.

basically gold for gems is type of how much are you willing to pay system, where how much people are willing to pay is determined by how much they want whatever in demand item.

So basically what it comes down to, is they didnt accurately guage the correct relative values of their items, in terms of finding the right price points, and its entirely possible that there is not a consistent relationship between their values.

anyhow doesnt really matter much, the things people dont trade gems for, they dont trade gems for. They most likely arent losing much money having things few people want to buy there.

Windsagio.1340:

About the value thing, there’s no sensible reason for people to want this change if they didn’t feel that gold had lower real value than gems.

This is one of those ‘hey I have this great idea that will make it so I don’t have to spend money I don’t want to spend!’ threads.

actually its probably because the gem market doesnt really track the ingame gold value of individual items very well.
people may think a new costume is worth 90 gold, but it doesnt mean they think a black lion kit is worth 20 gold.

however to be honest, i doubt a bank slot would be cheaper than 90 gold anyhow

Brother Grimm.5176:

darkace.8925:

Since the exact same thing can be said for metal and wood, I ask you why there are ore and lumber nodes in the game.

Because it makes SENSE that you chop down Trees and mine Ore? I know that sounds silly in a fantasy game setting, but if you think about it, NODES of Cloth and Leather existing in the game world is kind of “immersion breaking” (and I HATE that term).

its not silly some monsters carry around randomly, multiple peices at times, of armor/weapons that they cant even use? jelly fish dropping armor?

and there are ways to create nodes that wouldnt be immersion breaking regardless

Wanze.8410:

Tom Gore.4035:

phys.7689:

The solution is, reduce silk created without intent
create means for creating silk with intent
reduce obnoxious item requirements on basic gameplay items instituted for the sole purpose of draining oversupplied silk.

Basically this.

So both of you want silk to be directly farmable instead of getting drops of silk, no matter what content you play. Thats fair enough.

But i think Anet rather wants to have it the other way around.

You are probably right, but the results of that method are why people feel like loot in this game is worthless, and the only way to achieve anything in a decent time frame is to find the most acceptable gold farm for your personality and repeat it infinitely. And that everything of value requires too many base materials.

So yeah, i think anet thought it was a good idea, but the results dont seem like it was really that great an idea.
Id rather have a real economy where you make choices and control your destiny rather than one where everyone is trash collector, feeding everything to the combine for a pittance.

anyhow, more thought on the matter, they can still let you obtain materials from any content, but they should make you choose what you intend to get.
this way it would still be created with intent.
you would still be able to get it from any content.

i could elaborate, but that is the basis of the idea.

Mirta.5029:

phys.7689:

1 month after release, cost of 100 gems, 43 silver
at that time i believe you got 28 silver for beating a dungeon path
1 dungeon run = 65% of 100 gems
now, you get 1.5 gold for beating a dungeon, but it costs 13 gold for 100 gems
1 dungeon run =11% of 100 gems

you literally got no money for beating the dungeon. Just greens and blues in the chest. Green/ blue buying power had to do with how much money regular people had, which was close to nothing.

phys.7689:

before, each time a monster in orr dropped gold, it got you 1 gem roughly, now each monster dropping gold gets you .06 gems

how? They never dropped flat currency just items that could float in the exchange which was at that point very much gold free. Heck at Karka event people that got 30 gold for selling their precursors were happy because it was really serious money.

im pretty sure you got 28 silver for beating a story dungeon, i remember people at the time saying dungeons was mostly for earning money. And i remember my friend getting caught be the DR bug and only getting 15 silver while we were getting more.

and yes monsters did, and last i checked still have a chance to drop direct gold, hence items like this.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gilded_Infusion

it wasnt every kill, but yeah, they can drop gold.

Mirta.5029:

phys.7689:

and yes if gw2 was doing well during that time period, people interested in gw2 would be giving people gw2 related gifts, like they did in 2013 and 2012, which both showed an upswing in profits from q3 to q4 (lets ignore 2012 since it was release time) That gift spending wasnt spent on GW2

after the war has started in Russia the ecconomical situation in the countries close to it all hit the bucket. Russians can’t afford anything, so companies don’t even sell to them anymore, Ukranians are in the exact same situation, Lithuanians just got the Euro (happened in December) which caused a complete ecconomic shift, I was busy trying to get a UK bank account so that I could stop fearing war shutting me down economically, Switzerland (I think it was?) did something about untying their currency from the Euro and producing more of it, which meant that Euro in general has plummeted.

It wasn’t a happy Christmas. But I’m glad that USA is stable.

that sucks, reminds one that things are different all over the world.

Mapisto.2154:

phys.7689:

Mapisto.2154:

This is something that really bothers me in guild wars 2.
How come all (but one) medium coats are dresses? I mean, its not even practical…
Light armor leggings are mostly skirts.. Its kinda annoying when you play a male character.

I think they should make more slim looking armor, especially medium.
More shirt-like coats and more pants!
It is a “Pretty Princess” game after all… :P
What do you think?

whoever is in charge of the costume design has a strong distaste for butts, male female or animal.
You are right there is only a handful of complete sets that dont have a skirt of some kind.

No let me be clear, i actually like skirts sometimes, but i also like not skirts sometimes, and for those times, your choices are few and far between

He has a distaste for butts, but really likes cleavage… I don’t get it really xD

perhaps he/she hates butts imprisoned by clothes, but they wont let him/her make butt cleavage items.
perhaps it is a blessing.

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

If you define free, as costing money your are correct
but valueless is false.
time has value, even if it is recreational time. This is why if someone wants to call a locksmith to open a door, in his off hours, he charges them more, because his recreational time has value. This is why you get paid more for overtime, because your extra time has value.
This is why some people will tell their bosses to noway when they call for some extra hours.

And lastly, this is why people will pay money to be able to spend more of their recreational time doing what they actually enjoy doing, rather than preparing to do it, because that time has value.

Time only has value if you are getting something for it. Time that you spend on activities that do not generate value, is valueless. Time you PLAN to spend on such activities has the potential to generate value, but once you engage that activity, your time has become worthless.

value doesnt = monetary value.
things have value even should the entire monetary system cease to exist.

and even if you only believe in monetary value(which is intrinsicly incorrect), something has monetary value because of how much someone would be willing to PAY for it. Not because of how much you sold it for. Once you have sold it you no longer have something of monetary value, you have money.

Value = What OTHERS are willing to trade you for something.

No one is willing to pay you to play GW2, thus it is time that has no value.
You may get ENJOYMENT from it, but that is an intrinsic concept that has no value to others.

If I give you a stick, it has value. If you enjoy throwing sticks so you throw it away, your stick no longer has value. You got enjoyment, but are out a stick that you could have traded for a rock. Your stick is gone, you got nothing real for it.

value isnt actually about what others are willing to trade you. Value is about what something is worth.
“the regard that something is held to deserve; the importance, worth, or usefulness of something.”

Im the last man on earth, like i am legend, do you think batteries have no value now? what about electricity? What about the dog that follows me around. Does food now have no value?

for the sake of dealing with others, people haggle and try to determine the trade value of items, but in order to acknowledge the trade value of items, you must first acknowledge that it has some actual value in and of itself.

Even within your analogy, the stick you threw away still has value, you just no longer have it. whoever finds that stick now has its value. He may even sell it back to you, because you like throwing sticks away.

And going back to guild wars, yes in fact people are willing to pay you to play GW2, its called the gold to gem exchange, and ANET sells people the time you put into guild wars.
They have renegade illegal people who will also sell people the time they put into guild wars without letting anet into the picture.

In fact players are willing to give anet money so that they can spend more of the time they alloted for guild wars actually playing what they want to play

So yes time still has value, the stick has value, and even monetarily it has value

In an economic discussion, the economic usage of “value” must be used.

I already showed you even using a monetary definition of value, it still has value.

and economics isnt really just about money anyhow. Economics is about managing consumption production and distribution. This occurs even in units as small as one person. It occurs even when there is no money involved. Even if you were the last man on earth you would still have to make economic descions.

monetary value is a derivative of base value, and if you have a strong monetary system, anything of value also has monetary value.

your time playing guild wars has value, and just to prove that, people have figured out how to monetize time playing guild wars.

chronometria.3708:

The problem with the bag cost is that the price of gems seems to just keep going up. I haven’t bought a bag slot on the characters I now play and instead the ones I no longer use have all their slots unlocked. If the cost was more reasonable, I would go for it, but as it is, its just not worth the expenditure when you could instead put all that cash towards something like a legendary weapon.

so what you are saying essentially, is if bank slots costed less, they would sell more of them and make greater profits? essentially that they arent at their correct price point?

this may in fact be true, but you have to also consider, the real money side, while it may be a very poor option on the gold side, in real money it may be priced right. Perhaps its one of their higher selling items for people who buy it with money, at 8 dollars per expansion.

Mapisto.2154:

This is something that really bothers me in guild wars 2.
How come all (but one) medium coats are dresses? I mean, its not even practical…
Light armor leggings are mostly skirts.. Its kinda annoying when you play a male character.

I think they should make more slim looking armor, especially medium.
More shirt-like coats and more pants!
It is a “Pretty Princess” game after all… :P
What do you think?

whoever is in charge of the costume design has a strong distaste for butts, male female or animal.
You are right there is only a handful of complete sets that dont have a skirt of some kind.

No let me be clear, i actually like skirts sometimes, but i also like not skirts sometimes, and for those times, your choices are few and far between

Behellagh.1468:

dietzero.3514:

Astral Projections.7320:

Sometimes I think ANet shouldn’t have put in the gold to gems option. It seems to make some people feel entitled to free stuff.

Are there even any non subscription based MMOs that give away free bank and inventory slots? If there are MMOs that give away free bank slots, I would bet the people are paying a monthly subscription fee. It’s the subscription fee that allows those MMOs to give away stuff. It’s not reasonable to expect a game without a subscription fee to have the same features. One way or another, they have to have income.

Oh I am sorry. I did not know wanting space to cost a static amount of gold meant free. Next time I will check with you on whether gold is a real currency in the game or not, before I post.

As soon as you talk about taking an item at the Gem Shop and making it gold only, you are talking about free. Free from the point of view of ANet since the Gem Shop is their cash shop and their sole source of continuing income. The Gold to Gem pays for the Gem to Gold side of the exchange and vice versa. By lowering the price and making it gold would devalue the price of gems in terms of gold. If that goes down, less players would be incline to buy gems with cash which then impacts ANet’s and the games direct income.

So yes, what you are asking for is to make it free, because the 85-90g to “buy” 600 gems is too much for you (it was less than 80g last night) since you aren’t willing to fork over actual cash either.

not exactly true, increasing the demand for gold also can make anet profit, in terms of people willing to spend real money to get gold.

However as you say, the most important value is probably the demand for gem store items, because it is that demand for gem store items that causes people to sell their time to players who want gold.

It would require some actual math, and a number of educated guesses, but i agree that putting fixed gold cost on the bank tabs would probably not be profitable to anet directly, and even less likely if those prices arent extremely high.

The only real possible argument is that perhaps more people would be happy and spend more money elsewhere, but i dont think the inventory is in a place where its a strong turn off for people to deal with it.

However i havent played actively for awhile, and when i did play recently the amount of crap you have to sift through and manage did turn me off a bit, but not enough to say i’m less likely to play or spend money based on that factor alone.

basically, id say taking the picture as a whole, bank tabs costing gems is not deal breaker, and an acceptable proposition at this point in time.

That isnt saying its not an advantage, but its not really that different than if you had to buy it with gold, and its not so required it ruins the game experience without it.

Mirta.5029:

phys.7689:

because they either lack interest in the product, or they are dissatisfied with the product.

or because the expansion has been announced and they’re saving up for that? They’re taking a break before the expansion? Because Season 2 of living story is over for now and the only thing in between is filler? Because we all spent quite a lot on gifts on Christmas and now we can’t be going around buying things? Because indeed the economy is plummeting again (even though it never fully recovered), especially with what’s happening with Ukraine and Russia?

the expansion wasnt announced in December, had it been anounced, the numbers may have been different. Then it would not just be about the game as it is, but what the game could become.

Which is why that december snapshot was really a sign about how people feel about gw2 in that moment, based on the actual game as it was. They didnt expect anything for the future, they spent time, or money based on what the game was delivering at the time.

oh yeah let me clarify, 4th quarter isnt what happened right now, though it is reported right now, its what happened roughly september to early january.
At that time irl economy was in an upswing, we knew nothing concrete about an expansion
http://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/2014/12/22/holiday-spending-borrowing-up-2014/20774881/

and yes if gw2 was doing well during that time period, people interested in gw2 would be giving people gw2 related gifts, like they did in 2013 and 2012, which both showed an upswing in profits from q3 to q4 (lets ignore 2012 since it was release time) That gift spending wasnt spent on GW2

lets be clear, im fairly certain their profits must be up since the announcement, but that wasnt in Q4, and its not really a good showing about how people feel about the features that were delivered in 2014

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

If you define free, as costing money your are correct
but valueless is false.
time has value, even if it is recreational time. This is why if someone wants to call a locksmith to open a door, in his off hours, he charges them more, because his recreational time has value. This is why you get paid more for overtime, because your extra time has value.
This is why some people will tell their bosses to noway when they call for some extra hours.

And lastly, this is why people will pay money to be able to spend more of their recreational time doing what they actually enjoy doing, rather than preparing to do it, because that time has value.

Time only has value if you are getting something for it. Time that you spend on activities that do not generate value, is valueless. Time you PLAN to spend on such activities has the potential to generate value, but once you engage that activity, your time has become worthless.

value doesnt = monetary value.
things have value even should the entire monetary system cease to exist.

and even if you only believe in monetary value(which is intrinsicly incorrect), something has monetary value because of how much someone would be willing to PAY for it. Not because of how much you sold it for. Once you have sold it you no longer have something of monetary value, you have money.

Value = What OTHERS are willing to trade you for something.

No one is willing to pay you to play GW2, thus it is time that has no value.
You may get ENJOYMENT from it, but that is an intrinsic concept that has no value to others.

If I give you a stick, it has value. If you enjoy throwing sticks so you throw it away, your stick no longer has value. You got enjoyment, but are out a stick that you could have traded for a rock. Your stick is gone, you got nothing real for it.

value isnt actually about what others are willing to trade you. Value is about what something is worth.
“the regard that something is held to deserve; the importance, worth, or usefulness of something.”

Im the last man on earth, like i am legend, do you think batteries have no value now? what about electricity? What about the dog that follows me around. Does food now have no value?

for the sake of dealing with others, people haggle and try to determine the trade value of items, but in order to acknowledge the trade value of items, you must first acknowledge that it has some actual value in and of itself.

Even within your analogy, the stick you threw away still has value, you just no longer have it. whoever finds that stick now has its value. He may even sell it back to you, because you like throwing sticks away.

And going back to guild wars, yes in fact people are willing to pay you to play GW2, its called the gold to gem exchange, and ANET sells people the time you put into guild wars.
They have renegade illegal people who will also sell people the time they put into guild wars without letting anet into the picture.

In fact players are willing to give anet money so that they can spend more of the time they alloted for guild wars actually playing what they want to play

So yes time still has value, the stick has value, and even monetarily it has value

Mirta.5029:

phys.7689:

im not comparing it to release, i am comparing it to the months before npe.

but more telling than anything is the holiday season, it should have made more money during the holiday quarter than the quarter just before it, to actually make less is a sign that the users are either decreasing or less willing to spend money, even during the holiday season (which is the buying season in US) keep in mind profits include gem sales, and you see less interest.
Both are signs that users are not as satisfied with the product as they once were.

everything was on sale (including the game itself), in order to make the same amount of profit they should have sold twice as much. Do you really think that there’s that many MMO gamers that never got GW2 in these 2 years and would still love to buy it?

so assuming that everyone who has any interest in GW2 has already bought it, and most of the profit is coming from gem sales, why are less people willing to spend money on GW2 than they were last month? why arent they giving themselves, and their family/friends gift cards? gifting their friends transmutation stones. The general economy in real life is not worse than it was. Why are people not willing to spend as much as 3 months previous?

because they either lack interest in the product, or they are dissatisfied with the product.

I think you know what people tend to do when they grow bored, or worse, disatisfied with a game. and there is a high chance that some of the policies/changes before that q4 are responsible for people being bored/disatisfied

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

If you define free, as costing money your are correct
but valueless is false.
time has value, even if it is recreational time. This is why if someone wants to call a locksmith to open a door, in his off hours, he charges them more, because his recreational time has value. This is why you get paid more for overtime, because your extra time has value.
This is why some people will tell their bosses to noway when they call for some extra hours.

And lastly, this is why people will pay money to be able to spend more of their recreational time doing what they actually enjoy doing, rather than preparing to do it, because that time has value.

Time only has value if you are getting something for it. Time that you spend on activities that do not generate value, is valueless. Time you PLAN to spend on such activities has the potential to generate value, but once you engage that activity, your time has become worthless.

value doesnt = monetary value.
things have value even should the entire monetary system cease to exist.

and even if you only believe in monetary value(which is intrinsicly incorrect), something has monetary value because of how much someone would be willing to PAY for it. Not because of how much you sold it for. Once you have sold it you no longer have something of monetary value, you have money.