Guild Wars 2

mtpelion.4562:

I’d like to once again reiterate that the reason silk requires more is because there is a cloth/leather faucet that is constantly dumping materials into the economy without anyone intending to create them whereas this same faucet does not exist for ore/logs which are primarily generated by people intentionally gathering them in order to satisfy their own demand.

This ambient generation of materials is evenly distributed, as opposed to the farming generation method found with ore/logs which means that while the overall generation of cloth/leather is very high, individual generation is low requiring an individual to interact with other individuals in order to satisfy demand spikes that exceed their personal generation ability.

Long story short, ore/logs typically have a dynamic generation rate that satisfies demand, which limits the amount of excess product floating around. Cloth/leather have a relatively static generation rate which does not adapt well to changes in demand resulting in higher prices for T5 cloth (which has higher demand) and near useless prices for T5 leather (which has low demand).

this explains the how, but not the why , or the should this be the case.

Shiyo.3578:

It doesn’t take 4-5 hours for 36 days, it takes less than 2 hours of running dungeons for enough gold to afford 300 silk scraps.

I really want to know why Damask still takes 100 bolts of silk instead of 50 when silk is extremely expensive now.

the 4-5 hours was the whole time investment.
2 hours of dungeon running just gets you the silk, you still need the dargonite, empyreals, bloodstone, linen, cotton, wool, obsidian karma etc.
that said its a rough estimate, i dont remember exactly how much time you have to spend on average. it at least adds an hour i would say though.

Wethospu.6437:

I don’t think there should be multiple ways to get the same thing. That always leads one being favored unless they are carefully balanced which requires lots of participation from developers.

What I’m saying that current instability system doesn’t work because people can just choose the path of least resistance and skip them. Similar gambit system wouldn’t also work because people would just pick the best gambits.

---

Personally I think we need fractals 3.0 with active community involvement during development. We have here lots of experienced players who can point out any problems before any development even begins. At least for me it was pretty obvious that instabilities wouldn’t work as planned.

I have few times mentioned my idea and can expand it if needed but here is a summary:

• Create separate progression for every map (split up RNG paths)
• Connect different instabilities directly to specific maps
• Intensify / add effects further you progress
• At end of progression open up a new scale with numerically stronger enemies
• Add daily which requires doing specific level (= path & progression combination)
• Give a fractal weapon / tonic / etc. at end of progression
• Add fractal weapon sets with different colors for higher scales

This would:

• Shorten minimum time needed to progress
• Allow playing / practicing any maps
• Remove RNG from progression
• Allow more interesting and meaningful instabilities
• Allow near infinite progression while keeping it expandable
• Give lots “meaningful” of content with different instability combinations

The random elements are not objectively bad.

Kal Spiro.9745:

I agree. Silk should not be so misrepresented. They should boost the requirements of everything to match silk.

this wouldnt really solve the imbalance completely, because mithril is farmable, and leather is still used less in ascended recipes.
it would have an effect.

But if your goal is to have balance, the question becomes which is better balanced in terms of how much grinding it should take to get best in slot.`

I dont think it should take 4-5 hours a day for 36 days to get best in slot for armor alone

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

In the end, i agree, that light armor users are a bit shafted by the daily timegate and I dont mind, if they find a way to bring them on par with medium and heavy armor.

But then we have to look at other timegates as well, that are disproportionally distributed.

Why do heavy armor users have to spend 55 laurels and 33g for the recipes in order to get a full ascended weapon set and an engi only has to spend 20 laurels and 12g, an ele only needs 25 laurels and 15g?

35 Laurels is a huge difference and makes the 6 days that a light armor user needs more to craft his damask (which can be circumvented by buying it directly anyways) seem miniscule.

heavy armor users dont have to spend more
warrior does
thats it.
Guardian has 6 possiible weapons

its looking like revenant will also not have many weapons, considering it cant even weapon swap.

now having more weapons gives you more options, but not more power. While i would prefer more options, over more power, having more options is a feature of warrior, it is basically a master of arms. Now with warrior you are actually talking about real options and trade offs. They can only use 2-4 weapons in combat but they can select from a greater pool. The cost, for the gain of having more options than every one else is having more stuff to buy. Thats actually a real trade off.

ascended doesnt give you more options. you can choose to be weak, or not to be weak.

Now this whole side tangent isnt really relevant, because even if you think weapons are messed up, that doesnt mean damask is in good place.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon#Weapon_usability_by_professions

Guardian also uses 11 different weapons.

my fault, i was ignoring underwater and missed a few
but by that method of counting
mesmer has 9
necro has 8
theif has 8

if you consider that some classes need to have two of a weapon at once
then mesmer needs 10
guardian needs 11
necro needs 10
warrior needs 14

so there really is still no corelation between number of weapons and armor cost. My assumption is that is because you only can actually use 2-4 weapons in combat, and more weapons actually gives you more options outside of encounters, not more power in an encounter.

azurrei.5691:

Ayrilana.1396:

azurrei.5691:

Ayrilana.1396:

The +30 to a single stat will not significantly alter his results and conclusion.

Sure, but looking at just armor, which this thread is mainly complaining about, it is a 4% boost in power over exotic which is rather significant as he states it as a 1% increase, which it isn’t.

Did you run the numbers?

what numbers? +44 power over exotic is ~4% boost to armor power

to clarify for you,
1004 is the total amount of stats available from a major stat for having all exotic equipment
44/1004 = 4.3% more power than a full exotic user
now, if you want to examine only the armor
315 is the total power for armor alone
44/315 =13% more power from armor than a person using exotic armor.

Now, this is really a side issue, it really doesnt matter how much the gains are, for the same gains, people are doing more work.

maddoctor.2738:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Shiyo.3578:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Any chance someone could also summarize what the thread’s about at this point? It started out as being a whine about the cost of silk, and then mutated into a blob about ascended being necessary (it’s not, outside of easing the grind of AR in fractals and completing the achievement), silk being too high for damask (anyone remember when linen was more costly than silk at one point?), and cloth wearers being “shafted” by the crafting system.

Over 10% damage increase is 100% necessary, especially in WVW.

Fun fact: skill coefficients means it’s not a 10% damage increase by using ascended armor. A warrior using an ascended greatsword, exotic armor, and ascended trinkets (ascended) has, without runes and sigils in play, +1073 power, +734 precision, +734 ferocity. Add in ascended armor? That goes to +1087 power, +745 precision, +745 ferocity. Basic AA chain damage with exotic armor (~2600 armor target): 573,573,738. Basic AA chain with ascended armor vs same target: 577,577,743.

So… uh… yea, ascended armor being necessary outside of AR resistance in fractals? Total, utter, complete, rank dolyak kitten. Upgrading to an ascended weapon makes a bigger difference than upgrading to ascended armor.

*To make it simpler to read:

• Ascended weapon, trinkets, exotic armor: +1073 power, +734 precision, +734 ferocity, AA chain damage 573/573/738
• Ascended weapon, trinkets, armor: +1087 power, +745 precision, +745 ferocity, AA chain damage 577/577/743

Result? Ascended armor still not necessary. In fact, the difference between exotic armor and ascended armor is roughly +14/11/11, barely over a 1% increase in stats. Meanwhile, exotic to ascended trinkets gives a far bigger boost of around +70/35/35, much closer to a ~7-8% increase (averaged between the 3 stats).

edit: here’s another hilarious fact, it costs 48g to craft zojja’s claymore (a zerker ascended weapon) to gain a bigger damage boost than an entire ascended armor set.

This ^^

The gains from Ascended Armor are non-existing. I don’t see in your calculations the Weapon Damage difference between Ascended and Exotic, making Ascended Weapons EVEN more valuable over Ascended Armor.

And that last part about Zojja’s Claymore is the best part. I’d love to see full calculations how much 10 Weapons cost over a full set of Armor.

you do realize that ascended armor can also give you +30 to any of the main attributes through the infusion slot?
you also realize that not surprisingly one of the main points of armor is increased defense? for a clothy thats going to be about 2.5% less damage taken. Which is pretty signifigant once you start thinking about effective HP.

regardless, quibbling about the gains is actually overall irrelevant.
Whatever those gains are, it takes metal and leather users less effort to get the same gains

the true value of those gains is debateable, but completely irrelevant to the imbalance or the costs of achieving those gains, as long as they are non-zero.

and they are not non zero

pdavis.8031:

Phys: you’ve made your point very well. Ascended light is more expensive and takes more time, and thus is unfair.

But the question I have is: Why are you so preoccupied with fairness?

Does having the current requirement for ascended light break the game? No.
Does the current requirement preclude anyone from obtaining it? No.
Does it mean certain classes have to work harder than others? Yes.
Do the economic aspects of silk and ascended cause the economy as a whole to not function? No.
Does it separate the player base? No

So why does it matter if the material requirements are higher for light armor then the others? Why does it have to be fair?

It may not be “fair” but as one who is in the process of crafting ascended light, I haven’t found it to be that much of a problem. I can farm more silk than I can the other mats fairly easily and without much effort.

there is no method for obtaining silk that is faster than you can get other mats required for the daily craft.

as for your questions, they are the wrong questions.
your justifaction for a design that is built to make one group work harder than others, is that it doesnt break the economy, it also wouldnt break the economy to fix it. IN fact fixing the problem, in certain ways could lower the requirements to be uniform, and spread the increase in value among all the different materials, which would actually be a superior economic situation.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Any chance someone could also summarize what the thread’s about at this point? It started out as being a whine about the cost of silk, and then mutated into a blob about ascended being necessary (it’s not, outside of easing the grind of AR in fractals and completing the achievement), silk being too high for damask (anyone remember when linen was more costly than silk at one point?), and cloth wearers being “shafted” by the crafting system.

the thread, from its very first post was about the cost of silk in respect to ascended crafting and its imbalance

Wanze.8410:

In the end, i agree, that light armor users are a bit shafted by the daily timegate and I dont mind, if they find a way to bring them on par with medium and heavy armor.

But then we have to look at other timegates as well, that are disproportionally distributed.

Why do heavy armor users have to spend 55 laurels and 33g for the recipes in order to get a full ascended weapon set and an engi only has to spend 20 laurels and 12g, an ele only needs 25 laurels and 15g?

35 Laurels is a huge difference and makes the 6 days that a light armor user needs more to craft his damask (which can be circumvented by buying it directly anyways) seem miniscule.

heavy armor users dont have to spend more
warrior does
thats it.
Guardian has 6 possiible weapons

its looking like revenant will also not have many weapons, considering it cant even weapon swap.

now having more weapons gives you more options, but not more power. While i would prefer more options, over more power, having more options is a feature of warrior, it is basically a master of arms. Now with warrior you are actually talking about real options and trade offs. They can only use 2-4 weapons in combat but they can select from a greater pool. The cost, for the gain of having more options than every one else is having more stuff to buy. Thats actually a real trade off.

ascended doesnt give you more options. you can choose to be weak, or not to be weak.

Now this whole side tangent isnt really relevant, because even if you think weapons are messed up, that doesnt mean damask is in good place.

Astraea.6075:

phys.7689:

Astraea.6075:

300 scraps per day for 36 days is only a problem if you feel compelled to craft it in the minimum time. Not having enough silk to craft on a particular day doesn’t cause you to lose progress.

300 for 36 days, is a problem because other classes dont need that much.

and it was designed to be a daily craft, meaning, they are setting the goal at 300 a day.

as far as not feeling compelled, designing systems that interact with humans means part of your design has to account for human psychology.

The daily craft limit has been set to act as a gate, not a goal. Yes, human psychology will mean that people will treat it as a goal, but that is self-imposed to a large degree.

If you have set yourself a goal of crafting a set of light ascended armor in the minimum time, you will need to put in the effort needed. Is the effort more than needed to do the same for heavy ascended? Sure, but both are arbitrary goals, not ones set by the game itself.

This is how I, as a casual player who has only crafted 4/6 of my main’s (heavy) ascended armor, view the daily craft gate. YMMV.

regardless of psychological tendencies, why does it take less time and resources for your main, than for someone who is cloths main?

is there a good reason for this?

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

So what are they trading for a more difficult progression? What is the benefit that they gain for in exchange for the extra effort?

Wanze already pointed some out like less ascended weapons to craft on some classes. Of course, it’s not as simple as you elude to. There are differences across all classes that make some favourable over others depending on the player’s preferences, their willingness and their interests. Just because you put no effort into recognizing them doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

I find it funny your approach is that it’s not ‘justified’ this difference exists. Based on what? Fairness? Still waiting for you to tell me how in a game where class variations exists, this particular difference, out of many, needs to be changed.

class variation gives different options, playstyles and variety.

there is no variety in having the same stats but lower
there is no option other than to be weaker, or to be stronger
there is no playstyle choice, you do the exact same things, you are just less effecient at it.

and as to wanze theory on the warrior needs more weapons so it has cheaper armor trade off,
that doesnt hold water

engineer has 3 weapon types, and has cheap armor
mesmer has 7 weapon types and has expensive armor
thief has 6 weapon types and has cheap armor

there is no corelation between number of available weapons and armor costs.

Astraea.6075:

300 scraps per day for 36 days is only a problem if you feel compelled to craft it in the minimum time. Not having enough silk to craft on a particular day doesn’t cause you to lose progress.

300 for 36 days, is a problem because other classes dont need that much.

and it was designed to be a daily craft, meaning, they are setting the goal at 300 a day.

as far as not feeling compelled, designing systems that interact with humans means part of your design has to account for human psychology.

chemiclord.3978:

I have found the general thrust of these sort of threads can boil down to:

“I want this, but don’t want to have to pay for it.”

actually, if you read the OP, it was more of, this is an item i want to work towards in game, and have some great inpsired means of getting it.

Most likely the OP would not be satisfied with it being an item from a vendor either. He wants it tied to some form of epic adventure.

Zaklex.6308:

For those that play PvE, there’s this place called the Silverwastes, and well, silk comes out of there like there’s no tomorrow. However, now, instead of just selling the silk scraps, I’m turning it into Bolts of Silk, which sell for a lot more than the Silk Scraps themselves, though I did sell a few thousand at what ever the highest bidder was before checking the prices on Bolts. That could be another reason why Silk itself is going up in price, but I can usually get 100 – 200 scraps a day playing just a couple of hours.

yeah, but you need 300 per day for 36 days.
so that, according to what your saying is 3 hours per day.
now imagine someone doesnt like 3 hours of silverwaste a day, or only has 2 hours 5 days a week to play.

yup my friend, you basically have these poor sods by the balls, because the current system is designed to take the money out of their pockets to subsidize your profits.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

Astralporing.1957:

Wanze.8410:

tekfan.3179:

You say you play a warrior. Is it your main-character? I’ll assume it is, since you aligned yourself personally with that class (“I, as a warrior,…”).

So tell me: How is the status quo not a handicap for everyone with a light-armor profession as his/her main-character?

You seem to have checked if heavy exotic is more expensive, so I guess you ran into a similar situation of being unhappy in that regard.

Its not a handicap for the player with a light armor main because when he started the game, he had the same choices as me.

… so you are saying it is not a handicap for him, because he could simply chose to not play light armor class? Because that actually confirms, that in that regard not playing those professions is a better option.

I am saying its not a handicap to him because i have to pay the same gold as he does, if I choose to deck out a light class. I just chose not to.

so whether something is a handicap or not is based on whether you choose the handicap or not?

thats not really the way it works, a handicap is a handicap wether you choose it or not. If i decide to give my friend a 10 point handicap in a basketball match, its still a handicap.

if you have to work harder to achieve the same thing, that is a handicap, its not wether its chosen or not.

So the question is, why was is a handicap designed into ascended aquistion for cloth users.
is there any logical reason that it SHOULD take more effort to gear a cloth user than another?

Again, I have to work as hard as you to craft a light armor. So you are not handicapped compared to me. You pay the same price as me for silk.

hand·i·cap (h?n?d?-k?p?)
n.
1. Sports & Games
a. A race or contest in which contestants are given advantages or compensations to equalize the chances of winning.
b. Such an advantage or penalty.
2. Usage Problem A physical or mental disability. See Usage Note at handicapped.
3. A disadvantage or inconvenience. See Synonyms at disadvantage.
tr.v. hand·i·capped, hand·i·cap·ping, hand·i·caps
1. Sports & Games To assign handicaps or a handicap to (a contestant).
2. To cause to be at a disadvantage; impede.

a handicap is a disadvantage.
its irrelevant if a disadvantage is chosen, or not chosen. Its a quantifiable difference in difficulty.

is a cloth user at a disadvantage compared to a non cloth user when it comes to gearing to best in slot?

Now, sometimes a handicap/disadvantage is justified. Is this handicap justified?

Wanze.8410:

Astralporing.1957:

Wanze.8410:

tekfan.3179:

You say you play a warrior. Is it your main-character? I’ll assume it is, since you aligned yourself personally with that class (“I, as a warrior,…”).

So tell me: How is the status quo not a handicap for everyone with a light-armor profession as his/her main-character?

You seem to have checked if heavy exotic is more expensive, so I guess you ran into a similar situation of being unhappy in that regard.

Its not a handicap for the player with a light armor main because when he started the game, he had the same choices as me.

… so you are saying it is not a handicap for him, because he could simply chose to not play light armor class? Because that actually confirms, that in that regard not playing those professions is a better option.

I am saying its not a handicap to him because i have to pay the same gold as he does, if I choose to deck out a light class. I just chose not to.

so whether something is a handicap or not is based on whether you choose the handicap or not?

thats not really the way it works, a handicap is a handicap wether you choose it or not. If i decide to give my friend a 10 point handicap in a basketball match, its still a handicap.

if you have to work harder to achieve the same thing, that is a handicap, its not wether its chosen or not.

So the question is, why was is a handicap designed into ascended aquistion for cloth users.
is there any logical reason that it SHOULD take more effort to gear a cloth user than another?

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

phys.7689:

Slacker.2679:

Kronos.2560:

I agree with Slacker’s post for the most part. Though I would like the ability to buy fractal skins with pristine relics. I don’t care if its 25 or even 50 for 1 skin, as long as it is EVENTUALLY attainable. That would still keep the skins rare but not purely rely on rng which after 2 years can still leave you lacking the one weapon skin you actually want.

I feel that if a dedicated method to obtain skins were to be introduced, that 25 or 50 pristine relics would be far too cheap. In order to keep things balanced I would favor something like this:

• Fractal weapons skins can be purchased for 100 Pristine Relics + 10g and require a personal reward level of 50 or higher to purchase.

The amounts required could increase depending on balance as desired by the devs, but I think a minimum of these three factors should be required.

i think 100 is overkill

I think 100 is about right. Your odds of getting the skin you WANT, on scale 50, are 1/19 * 10% or .5%. Thus, in theory, it should take you ~200 runs to get the particular skin you WANT, or 200 relics.

BUT the drop rate was 1 in 4 prepatch, or 25%. That math turns out to be around a 1.3% chance on any given run, or about 100 runs to get the skin you want.

100 relics is a good number.

50 runs, requires you be up to level 50.

getting to level 50 should be the main hurdle. getting the drop you want randomly saves you 50 runs.

your essentially talking about at least 50 hours per weapon. Thats not a bad number. 100 hours per weapon is overkill. imo

Obtena.7952:

Astralporing.1957:

Wanze.8410:

tekfan.3179:

You say you play a warrior. Is it your main-character? I’ll assume it is, since you aligned yourself personally with that class (“I, as a warrior,…”).

So tell me: How is the status quo not a handicap for everyone with a light-armor profession as his/her main-character?

You seem to have checked if heavy exotic is more expensive, so I guess you ran into a similar situation of being unhappy in that regard.

Its not a handicap for the player with a light armor main because when he started the game, he had the same choices as me.

… so you are saying it is not a handicap for him, because he could simply chose to not play light armor class? Because that actually confirms, that in that regard not playing those professions is a better option.

No, it’s just confirms that the deficiencies of other classes are more tolerable to some players. Choices. Trade offs.

so you think, its good to design a system where different proffesions have to grind different amounts for the same power level?

You believe that Cloth classes, were designed to have to work harder to get gear,

ok
So what are they trading for a more difficult progression? What is the benefit that they gain for in exchange for the extra effort?

Slacker.2679:

Kronos.2560:

I agree with Slacker’s post for the most part. Though I would like the ability to buy fractal skins with pristine relics. I don’t care if its 25 or even 50 for 1 skin, as long as it is EVENTUALLY attainable. That would still keep the skins rare but not purely rely on rng which after 2 years can still leave you lacking the one weapon skin you actually want.

I feel that if a dedicated method to obtain skins were to be introduced, that 25 or 50 pristine relics would be far too cheap. In order to keep things balanced I would favor something like this:

• Fractal weapons skins can be purchased for 100 Pristine Relics + 10g and require a personal reward level of 50 or higher to purchase.

The amounts required could increase depending on balance as desired by the devs, but I think a minimum of these three factors should be required.

i think 100 is overkill

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

Ashen.2907:

1) anet is not infallible so a customer questioning actions or decisions that negatively impact the game for them is appropriate.

2) Anet has reversed course on previously made design decisions fairly frequently since launch. In almost every case it has been after customers expressed dissatisfaction with the design decision.

Sure, but you don’t get it … it’s already been questioned, it’s already been answered. Of course they can reverse something but we already know the process here isn’t “If we QQ enough, Anet changes it”. In fact, that’s rarely how Devs work.

there has been numerous occaisions where if the users did not question something, it would never have been fixed.
there are numerous occaisons where something has been improved or changed.

And heres the thing you dont realize, even if devs know or accept that they have a problem, they still have to make the descion on how to fix, and when to fix, and wether the cost makes it worthwhile to fix.

so, yeah they actually need people to QQ so they can not only identify things that arent working for the customers, they also need QQ so they can prioritize what/when to fix things.

QQ is actually not bad at all. Its annoying sure, but its pretty useful. QQ in an iterative system is essential.

But Anet fixed the silk price in the last couple of months already.

Fix is a strong word
they did something to ease the situation temporarily
the problems are still there, and the thing they did didnt remove the issue, it just made it more bearable to deal with.

now, the effects of that thing are wearing off, and the problem is becoming less bearable again.
Why not cure the disease rather then lessen the symptoms?

Is silk/damask a chronic illness for which there is no cure?

Ashen.2907:

phys.7689:

Ashen.2907:

Wethospu.6437:

No really cares that to get decent bag space you have to do stuff like mules, guild banks and keep items on mails?

I don’t do any of those things and have what I would consider, “decent,” space. I would love more, but its a product for which I would expect to pay. So far the cost has outweighed the potential benefit for me. When that changes I will buy more.

I really do not understand how, “I want something so I guess I better pay for it,” became a foreign concept (this is not directed at you Wethospu).

probably because they did pay for it.

No, they did not pay for more space than was provided. They paid for what was included at the time of the purchase. Anything more than that is an extra purchase, something for which they have not paid.

they paid for an mmorpg game, it didnt say on the box that it had 30 bank spaces. By your definition, everything that happens in the game, you shouldnt complain about, because you didnt pay for something other than what you recieved.

you didnt pay for equality among classes, you paid for whatever balance the game shipped with
you didnt pay for better enemy AI, you paid for the AI at the time of sale.

the fact that you paid for something does not reduce your ability to complain about its condition when you recieved it, it actually increases that ability.

Obtena.7952:

Ashen.2907:

1) anet is not infallible so a customer questioning actions or decisions that negatively impact the game for them is appropriate.

2) Anet has reversed course on previously made design decisions fairly frequently since launch. In almost every case it has been after customers expressed dissatisfaction with the design decision.

Sure, but you don’t get it … it’s already been questioned, it’s already been answered. Of course they can reverse something but we already know the process here isn’t “If we QQ enough, Anet changes it”. In fact, that’s rarely how Devs work.

there has been numerous occaisions where if the users did not question something, it would never have been fixed.
there are numerous occaisons where something has been improved or changed.

And heres the thing you dont realize, even if devs know or accept that they have a problem, they still have to make the descion on how to fix, and when to fix, and wether the cost makes it worthwhile to fix.

so, yeah they actually need people to QQ so they can not only identify things that arent working for the customers, they also need QQ so they can prioritize what/when to fix things.

QQ is actually not bad at all. Its annoying sure, but its pretty useful. QQ in an iterative system is essential.

Ashen.2907:

Wethospu.6437:

No really cares that to get decent bag space you have to do stuff like mules, guild banks and keep items on mails?

I don’t do any of those things and have what I would consider, “decent,” space. I would love more, but its a product for which I would expect to pay. So far the cost has outweighed the potential benefit for me. When that changes I will buy more.

I really do not understand how, “I want something so I guess I better pay for it,” became a foreign concept (this is not directed at you Wethospu).

probably because they did pay for it.
Now, i know they need to earn money, but you guys need to stop acting like people didnt buy the product.

and before you say that didnt pay for 2 years of development, please note the last two of these threads were started by new players, who have actually paid within the last month or so, for the game. They actually have gotten very little of the content that was created since the game started, due to most living story disappearing, and the fact that new content costs money if you werent around when it came out. Combine that with an upcoming expansion, and the argument that they should pay in bank spaces, for development that they never got to experience is a bad reason.

Banks space effects how you play the game from day 1, they have a valid complaint if the initial bank space is a problem.

Kurr.4179:

NoTrigger.8396:

Kurr.4179:

So, a few good players can coordinate to be effective or a zerg just has an overwhelming amount of CC is what they are saying… not that it’s 5 man content.

i didnt say they mean 5 man content.

Kurr.4179:

As for the raid content designer, if one of their devs left they just replaced him is all.

they didnt have a raid content designer before.

Kurr.4179:

Since GW2 works slightly uniquely compared to other MMOs they hired someone with relevant experience to designing big bosses (world bosses vs raid bosses). Vinewrath, Wyvern, etc could all be considered raid content, especially by ArenaNET.

there is no raid content in gw2 at the moment and a guy who simply designs bosses is not a raid content designer.

wait i forgot, wvw, tequatl and wurm is raid content of course….

Kurr.4179:

Finally, if you can’t see why this new defiance system is bad news for current dungeons I’m not sure what to tell you.

i dont care about current dungeons and compared to the people who are stuck with their heads in tyria and believe that this is a bad system overall i have seen basically the same system in a game with content that is by far more difficult and challenging than gw2.

Kurr.4179:

Just have fun not being able to focus pull any boss anywhere because even if you break the starting defiance bar all you’re getting is a generic stun effect…

icebow 5 isnt a generic stun effect?

Kurr.4179:

Everyone on this subforum should be pretty unhappy with this change as usually it’s pretty unanimous that people want more skill-based content. This is largely moving away from that to more easily control zerg CC.

this is not true at all and if you really believe this, then you are not able to imagine whats possible in terms of mechanics and difficulty with the new system.

the fact that your time to interrupt is limited or the fight will become significantly harder alone should make you realize that the new system isnt “easily control zerg cc” in any way.

Kurr.4179:

One way or another, it’s removing skill versatility in PvE for a system that’s easier for ArenaNET to make content for, without pausing to think about the effect of the different type of CCs on their bosses anymore.

it removes some versatility in PvE and adds versatility in a different way, which opens up more options than the current system for future encounters. it only depends on what arenanet will do with this system.

You mentioned 5 man content multiple times in this thread. Yes Teq/Wurm is considered raid content by ArenaNET. You don’t know that they didn’t have a “raid designer” before, it’s just a title they used to hire someone.

Icebow 5 sucks and I didn’t say the opposite (I would remove icebow 5 from the game personally); turning all the different CC skills into generic Icebow 5 is much MUCH worse than the current system.

Wildstar sucks and I don’t want that content in GW2.

have you ever played wildstar? what specifically about the content did you dislike/like?

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

eithinan.9841:

Wanze.8410:

tekfan.3179:

You say you play a warrior. Is it your main-character? I’ll assume it is, since you aligned yourself personally with that class (“I, as a warrior,…”).

So tell me: How is the status quo not a handicap for everyone with a light-armor profession as his/her main-character?

You seem to have checked if heavy exotic is more expensive, so I guess you ran into a similar situation of being unhappy in that regard.

Its not a handicap for the player with a light armor main because when he started the game, he had the same choices as me.

His ascended gear might be more expensive than mine, my exotic gear might be more expensive than his. I might have to craft 11 asc weapons for a full set, he might only have to craft 5 weapons. The sigils and runes for his metabuild in wvw might cost 4 times more than mine.

There are economic pros and cons for every class but it doesnt put individual players at a disadvantage because they are all available for everybody.

I think its unfair that staff ele’s only need to make 1 weapon while my other classes need to make more, 3-4 in some cases. This is unbalanced and unfair. I think for a staff ele to work they need to slot 2 of the same weapon…..

#sarcasm

even if you believe that is a lack of balance (which you dont seem, to) a lack of balance in one facet is not solved by making something else screwed up. Ever heard two wrongs dont make a right?

and as a side note, i would love to be able to get more actual skill choices. if the price for 5 new skills is one weapon of any rarity, i would pay that price.

You’ve missed the point: Inbalance and unfairness isn’t a reason to fix inbalances or unfair things. The strengths and deficiencies define the professions. The ‘fix’ is to play the professions that don’t have those inbalances if they bother players that much.

You might not see it but if silk was adjusted to appease light armor users issue with cost, this would affect a subset of players negatively as well. That’s not fair either. Fairness, balance .. these things are fairy tales in games that have variations for gear, professions, …. CHOICES.

Your overall reasoning is, thats the way it is, so thats the way it should be. Its a very bad design philosophy, especially when the designers job is to make it the way it is, or change the way it is/ make sure that the way it is, is the best path.

using that philosophy would lead to a giant circle of achieving nothing.

thing to remember is, bosses are not being exploited by using CC on them, you are actually using your skills as they are intended to be used. Bosses are being exploited by having poor response to enemies, and simple scripts.

immobolize is built to control how you fight the enemy. if it cant do that, its pretty bad as a skill, AND you are further limiting how interesting the players build is, and enemy encounters can be

wauwi.9162:

Dave.2536:

phys.7689:

I think you are interpreting more deeply than neccessary, basically they will have to make it easier for some people to get into the dungeon facet of the game. They may have to create special systems, or filters or whatever for that purpose, but if it increases dungeon participation and satisfaction without reducing the current community, or alienating them, its worthwhile, in my opinion.

Nerf all the mindless farming to oblivion, then maybe raise the rewards for story mode, and you’ll see people far more willing to learn dungeons. The game has encouraged them to be lazy players, and lazy learners, and there will be no place for them in dungeons until they realize they need to shape up.

Kind of an odd thing to say, if stacking and mashing “1” is pretty much what you will do half the time in dungeons.
Ever wiped on Fyonna? Yeah, me neither. There isn’t to say, that there aren’t more crunchy fights in between, but finding groups for these paths (like CoE p3 or all of HotW) demands alot more patience, which pretty much nullifies the aspect of speedclearing for profit/gold per hour.

Even in dungeons…no, ESPECIALLY in dungeons, ppl also tend to go for the easiest way, because it’s more often than not the fastest.
At any daytime, i have no problem finding an AC full run group, for example.

On the other side, mashing “1” or AA/AFK at some more demanding open world PvE content, like tequatl gets you killed pretty fast.
But sadly, such events are rare.

There pretty much is only tequatl or jungle wurm…

problem is, yeah that stuff may be easy
BUT open world is even easier.
Not that i am pro stacking or anything

I suggested it before, but i think they should give bonuses to dungeons based on what is completed rarely, let it change every 2 hours. Also bonus thats altered based on average completion time.

maha.7902:

how did skill versatility even matter when the one cc skill you used was ice bow 5 and literally anything else was just a filler so some dude could pick up a bow and do it again

…

true, However, shouldnt they be building a system that will make different CC be used, rather than one that basically makes every CC that works into icebow 5?

I say, for non-specialized cases, they should make bosses vulnerable to all CC for like 6 seconds.
Then you can really punk him out for 6 seconds in various ways, but you will need access to the control effects to do so, and they will need to be off cooldown (some of them you will have probably just blown)

seems like it would have more play, and make use of the players actual skill bars, rather than CC only being about the break bar.

eithinan.9841:

Wanze.8410:

tekfan.3179:

You say you play a warrior. Is it your main-character? I’ll assume it is, since you aligned yourself personally with that class (“I, as a warrior,…”).

So tell me: How is the status quo not a handicap for everyone with a light-armor profession as his/her main-character?

You seem to have checked if heavy exotic is more expensive, so I guess you ran into a similar situation of being unhappy in that regard.

Its not a handicap for the player with a light armor main because when he started the game, he had the same choices as me.

His ascended gear might be more expensive than mine, my exotic gear might be more expensive than his. I might have to craft 11 asc weapons for a full set, he might only have to craft 5 weapons. The sigils and runes for his metabuild in wvw might cost 4 times more than mine.

There are economic pros and cons for every class but it doesnt put individual players at a disadvantage because they are all available for everybody.

I think its unfair that staff ele’s only need to make 1 weapon while my other classes need to make more, 3-4 in some cases. This is unbalanced and unfair. I think for a staff ele to work they need to slot 2 of the same weapon…..

#sarcasm

even if you believe that is a lack of balance (which you dont seem, to) a lack of balance in one facet is not solved by making something else screwed up. Ever heard two wrongs dont make a right?

and as a side note, i would love to be able to get more actual skill choices. if the price for 5 new skills is one weapon of any rarity, i would pay that price.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

champ.7021:

I find it more annoying that if i do a fair amount of dungeons and a fractal or two in a day i can manage to get enough leather, wood, and mithril to craft the time gated mats. Maybe not the entire amount but factoring in the cost of those mats from the tp, enough that it doesnt really take away from my gold. Silk on the other hand ill end up with at max 40 bolts of silk, and thats if im lucky, often times i get 30 or so. Buying the other 50-70 is like another 4-5g on top. The mats are already time gated putting a pressure on the player to make sure to craft it every day…yet you cant manage to get enough mats to craft it every day. The whole experience just feels backwards. I think they should both put the amount of silk needed to 50 and make it drop more from salvaging since we cant get it from nodes. I dont mind having to purchase the mats from the tp to craft it every day, but i shouldnt have to spend as much as i do each time, and i should feel like the silk i get from playing the game is actually worthwhile.

I guess, if Anet puts bolt of damask on a 3-day cooldown, you shouldnt have a problem anymore.

that would be incredibly unbalanced with respect to other materials aquisition. I know you arent really serious, but you cant come up with solutions that ignore all their other interactions and have a good answer.
In math terms this would be solving a system of equations.

essentially you need to get an answer that solves ALL of the issues, not just one or two. The current design of silk within ascended has many flaws.

Youre right, i wasnt serious. But I also havent seen a single solution pointed out here that would remedy everything and wouldnt inflict other problems.

But I do know that Anet rebalanced cloth output in general since season 2 started, which resulted in lower costs for silk and bolt of damask. Damask went from 17g to 13g (over 20%) and bolt of silk went from 11.5s to 5.75s (50%) in about 3 months.
So their macro-economic solution seems to work just fine.

Just because people complain that they cant farm 300 scraps of silk per day doesnt mean that the amount is unreasonable because you still have to consider the supply that comes in from people that have no use for it. If everybody could farm his daily needs in a timely manner, it will result in oversupply pretty quick (see leather).

its unreasonable because it takes too much effort as compared to all the other materials.
weather you define that in gold, or in personal farming it still requires .5 gold versus 7.5 gold.

I wouldnt reccomend bring leather and metal up to silks cost

i would say the effort required for silk, is not in a good place, taking 2-3 hours of farm time, or .7-1.5 hours of gold grinding.
thats for the people who are doing either semi effeciently btw. People playing normally would have to dedicate even more time. AND thats just for one of the required mats.

Aidan Savage.2078:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

Aidan Savage.2078:

edit: obtena, it is possible to get 70+ AR without armor 60 from trinkets and 10 from weapons

Great, so there isn’t even a valid argument to change silk/ascended armor relation from the perspective of needing it to progress in fractals. The case to change this only gets weaker. Next time someone uses progression in fractals as a reason, I will point this out to them.

you could theoretically get 70AR on one item but it would cost an insane amount of gold and grinding.

he was probably assuming every accessory could be infused, and that infusion was 5 agony resistance, its not really the case.
back and rings can be infused, the other 3 cant.
so without agony infusion, you are looking at 30 ar on rings, and 10 from weapons
which means you would need to get 30 AR from infusions to have 70 without ascended armor
which means you need to obtain at least three +10 ar infusions

No, I wasnt. Necklace and accessories can only be socketed with a versatile infusion. That’s 15 AR. Backpieces and both rings have both types of sockets, which means 15 AR (30 total) from Versatile infusions, and +10 agony infusions in the remaining slots adds another 30 AR (60 total). The remaining 10 comes from weapons.

Second, you need to understand that “grinding” is irrelevant to this argument, which is saying ascended armor was a necessity for Fractals. It’s not. 70 AR is needed ONLY for 50 FoTM (50 AR iirc for 41-49).

Additionally, disregarding daily rewards and pristines, running fractals from 1 to 49 gives you 461 fractal relics. Assuming you only run 5 fractals each day, you’re getting 2 pristine relics a day for 10 days, which gives another 15 relics when broken down. This gives you the versatile infusions you need by the end.

Furthermore, an intelligent player would know that while +10s would get you the minimum AR necessary for a 50 FoTM, +9s cut that cost in half, and means you only suffer ~3.5% per tick. Still even further, by that point in time, you’d have seen at least 1 ascended armor drop out of fractals. For free. Even if the stats were kitten, the loss of stats is acceptable compared to the prospects of death from agony.

So no, phys, I did not make an error. Afterall, I have roughly 85 AR for kittens and grins and run fractals quite frequently.

edit: to everyone else; Stop making your arguments on the SELL LISTING PRICE of damask. It’s a fool’s argument and will be treated as such. Use the CRAFTING price of damask and other T7s.

so basically you are saying you need 3 level 10 Ar infusions.

you can use level +9s if you want, but since the agony instability does consistent damage throughout the level, you will be taking 3.5 times as much damage as some one in the proper gear. from what i have seen most groups request 70AR for fractal 50 probably for this reason.

i will say my calculations on the costs were off, BIG MISTAKE i didnt count the insignias, which is a substantial difference in cost. so you can disregard that,

as for using the sell prices or the buy prices, it tends to be arbitrary in terms of the ratios you may save 10%, but you probably also save 10% on the other items.

Obtena.7952:

Aidan Savage.2078:

edit: obtena, it is possible to get 70+ AR without armor 60 from trinkets and 10 from weapons

Yes, I was waiting for someone to post this because there isn’t even a valid argument to change silk/ascended armor relation from the perspective of needing it to progress in fractals. The case to change this only gets weaker. Next time someone uses progression in fractals as a reason, I will point this out to them.

A +10 Ar infusion is a bit less than 50G … I think the economics favours simply getting these over a full set of ascended armor with +5 AR ones.

not true, if you are a leather user, or a metal user according to my previous post.

there are no infused necklace or earrings, that was aidan’s error

so yeah, you can be the weak guy in your party and save 20 gold over the armor user, or spend 10 more gold than the leather user to be weak
.

Ok I Did It.2854:

Wow 4 pages on this, really this could be applied to many items on the trading post, and its always the same answer,

Its Supply and Demand

According to gw2spidy

Silk Scrap

Supply:
661876

Demand:
733908

Hence the price going up, its the same with everything when there is more demand than a supply.

I find Silk 1 of the easier lower end mats to farm, nearly every zone if not all zones you can farm it fairly easy,

The price will continue to climb providing.

A. the demand outstrips the supply
B. people wanting to buy it instead of farming it

Id be disappointed if Anet stepped in here and changed any values etc, as that would lead to a lot more issues in the long run.

the OP posts this within the context of damask aka ascended

while the price of silk, alone may be ok
the price of silk per damask is 7.5 gold
as compared to the price of other t5 materials in ascended of .5 gold

keep in mind these things should be virtually the same price in order for ascended recipes to make sense/be balanced as a form of progression

Obtena.7952:

Aidan Savage.2078:

edit: obtena, it is possible to get 70+ AR without armor 60 from trinkets and 10 from weapons

Great, so there isn’t even a valid argument to change silk/ascended armor relation from the perspective of needing it to progress in fractals. The case to change this only gets weaker. Next time someone uses progression in fractals as a reason, I will point this out to them.

you could theoretically get 70AR on one item but it would cost an insane amount of gold and grinding.

he was probably assuming every accessory could be infused, and that infusion was 5 agony resistance, its not really the case.
back and rings can be infused, the other 3 cant.
so without agony infusion, you are looking at 30 ar on rings, and 10 from weapons
which means you would need to get 30 AR from infusions to have 70 without ascended armor
which means you need to obtain at least three +10 ar infusions

building that yourself would require 3 x (512 infusions 7.64npc gold) or 150 gold on the market.
if you have ascended you can get 72 ar by doing 8 +4ar infusions
8x (8 infusions10.47npc gold) or 7.3 gold on the market

keep in mind that fractals is one of the poorer paying game types in gold per hour.

now, lets look at current tp costs for ascended
315 gold for a full set of coth
166 gold for a full set of leather
208 gold for full set of metal

so since you only 5/6 pieces, to get 72 AR
you can not buy the most expensive piece
knock it down to
250 gold for cloth
133 gold for leather
173 gold for metal

this means a leather user can basically get more defense, max AR and more dps for 140 gold
an armor user can get get in the same AR/armor class for 180 gold
and the cloth user must pay 257 gold

it also means that getting +10 AR(in order to hit cap) infusions is stupid for a leather user
not a good idea for armor user
but an ok idea for a clothy, even though he will be weaker and take more dmg if he chooses that path.

essentially a cloth person has to work almost 80% harder for the same power level as a leather user, and 40% harder for the same power level as a metal user

sorry thats a BIG BIG problem imo

Wanze.8410:

champ.7021:

I find it more annoying that if i do a fair amount of dungeons and a fractal or two in a day i can manage to get enough leather, wood, and mithril to craft the time gated mats. Maybe not the entire amount but factoring in the cost of those mats from the tp, enough that it doesnt really take away from my gold. Silk on the other hand ill end up with at max 40 bolts of silk, and thats if im lucky, often times i get 30 or so. Buying the other 50-70 is like another 4-5g on top. The mats are already time gated putting a pressure on the player to make sure to craft it every day…yet you cant manage to get enough mats to craft it every day. The whole experience just feels backwards. I think they should both put the amount of silk needed to 50 and make it drop more from salvaging since we cant get it from nodes. I dont mind having to purchase the mats from the tp to craft it every day, but i shouldnt have to spend as much as i do each time, and i should feel like the silk i get from playing the game is actually worthwhile.

I guess, if Anet puts bolt of damask on a 3-day cooldown, you shouldnt have a problem anymore.

that would be incredibly unbalanced with respect to other materials aquisition. I know you arent really serious, but you cant come up with solutions that ignore all their other interactions and have a good answer.
In math terms this would be solving a system of equations.

essentially you need to get an answer that solves ALL of the issues, not just one or two. The current design of silk within ascended has many flaws.

Dave.2536:

Do you know why the dungeon community is tiny?

Because open world mindless zerging is already so rewarding. People hear about dungeons being nice income so they come “try” it halfheartedly. Turns out you actually need to dodge, read things, and not just spam 1 anymore.

Unlearning bad habits becomes too much work, so they simply blame the dungeon community for being too difficult and unwelcoming and go back to mindless zerg farming.

i agree that the game rewards mindless play too heavily.

Thaddeus.4891:

phys.7689:

no, i never said to end all party filtering at all.
I agree that developer attention hasnt been all good, but even though i dont like everything they did in fractured, i did enjoy having 3-4 new fractals

Im not suggesting they destroy the speed running community, im suggesting they need to encourage more than just the speed run community. Ideal situation, speedrun community basically does as it does now, but more people play dungeons, with varying goals. As well, a better starter experience Dungeon community grows, speedrun community also grows.

side note, kitten your hatred is strong.

If you are suggesting ‘’they need to encourage more than just the speed run community’’. That mean that you consider that right now or in the past they encouraged just the speed run community?

Do you have example of that, because I think that just a cute little phrase with no meaning, but if you can prove me wrong I would be glad.

I think you are interpreting more deeply than neccessary, basically they will have to make it easier for some people to get into the dungeon facet of the game. They may have to create special systems, or filters or whatever for that purpose, but if it increases dungeon participation and satisfaction without reducing the current community, or alienating them, its worthwhile, in my opinion.

edgarallanpwn.8739:

phys.7689:

edgarallanpwn.8739:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

Why are we even caring about stupid post like that?

because the post is actually about a legitimate issue, even if the solution isnt feasible. This is a line anet has to walk carefully, and try to come up with a balance that works.

It doesn’t make the game P2W and only add revenue to the devs. I see it more like a win-win-win for every one : People who want to pay RL cash for IG gold are pleased, devs and compagny get paid, people who don’t want to spend RL money have a way to get gems for store items by only playing the game (aka earning gold and trading it for gems).

So tell me again what issue is there?

first of all, i see people dont really get the OP, hes actually on you anti p2w guys side. He made his suggestion as a means of shutting up the p2w debate once and for all. Or at least thats the side he presented.

The system definately has advantages, i know a couple friends who would not play for a signifigant amount of time if they had to pay a subscription.

However, i think its foolish to ignore the issue. Its something you have to monitor and adjust, its not going to be 100% ok or 100% bad. This system is like consuming alchohol, you have to monitor it, and control it, or else it can end up being a bad experience.

Its not a question of whether pay for in game things is 100% bad or 100% good, its about how to manage pay for in game so that it creates the best balance of gains versus losses.

But really, why would we care about P2W complainer? They are wrong and shame on them if they don’t see it, even after all the talk there has been on the subject.

because they arent wrong, they have a different opinion. There is no shame on them. There is no objective right answer on whether selling in game objectives/things is good.

If you want to develop a good system for most people, you have to realize you dont have a simple truth, you have a complex interaction

except that everyone is talking about p2w in a sense that is NOT p2w that is stereotypical, the majority, nor the natural stigma of the phrase in any way. People are trying to make and argument of p2w when its simply not. Its pay2lookfancier or pay2wear.

getting caught up on the definition of the word, doesnt really change the point people were making.

Its fine to point out a difference in the perception of a slang word, but its not really condusive to discussion to continue to argue over its meaning once you understand what the person was actually saying.

Using a term properly, and conveying the proper connotations, as well as debate will help your audience better try to see your viewpoint. If you just throw out big attention words like p2w while using them properly, often enough people will just dismiss it, like most are saying to ignore op.

the point of a debate is to win, the point of discussion is to come to understandings.
So yeah, in a debate they will toast you for improper usage, but in a discussion your goal should be to understand other people and come to new understandings or solutions, which means you are generally more forgiving of the word usage, and more focused on the intent.

hybrid.5027:

phys.7689:

hybrid.5027:

phys.7689:

If Dungeons are going to continue to be a thing the dungeon community needs to expand to encompass players who just want to play some dungeons.

the dungeon speed run community is bigger now than its ever been. Not seeing the pressure to “encompass” non-conformists.

the speedrun community is larger, but the overall community versus the total amount of players is small.
I dont really care if people want to play a certain way, but i think the developers are not giving dungeon development the effort it deserves because they feel its market is too niche.
And its very true that it is a lot harder to experience dungeons in a non speed run fashion than it used to be.

And lets be honest hybrid, if the meta says the best party is a certain 5 classes(and its noticeably better), that is what the speedrun community will do, however, that means 3/8th of the proffessions will have no place.

thats just the what it means. I am not seeking to erase the speedrun community, i am just saying that by its very nature, speedrun community will not work for many players. For dungeons to thrive, it needs to appeal to both the current community and expand into regular players as well.

So your argument is, if we immediately ended all party filtering and happily invited more play how you wanters and their trashway builds, it would grow the community and we would get more developer attention.

No deal.

I’d rather be part of a good, small community that gets no developer attention than a bad, large community who gets lot’s of developer attention. Not to mention, there isn’t much evidence that “developer attention” would lead to anything good. #fractured #TAFU

no, i never said to end all party filtering at all.
I agree that developer attention hasnt been all good, but even though i dont like everything they did in fractured, i did enjoy having 3-4 new fractals

Im not suggesting they destroy the speed running community, im suggesting they need to encourage more than just the speed run community. Ideal situation, speedrun community basically does as it does now, but more people play dungeons, with varying goals. As well, a better starter experience Dungeon community grows, speedrun community also grows.

side note, kitten your hatred is strong.

Coopziana.1802:

Yes it’s a sad tale that i still have some achievements i need to get for the TA Aether Path.

The issue is that it seems that people don’t bother with this path as it’s quite difficult. I understand there are a few elitest out there who like the harder content… But sadly it’s gotten to a point where I cannot even find a party in LFG and any time you mention it people say “HELL NO! It’s just too kitten long winded and hard, with an unsubstantial reward at the end” so very few bother.

I’d like to suggest a Tiny nerf to make it a little bit easier so that people at least run the path again… either that or make the rewards worth the time invested.

I’d just like to see this path used a bit more often like the other dungeons, it’s just an added bonus that I could then find a team to go with and get those achievements that keep glaring at me, calling me a loser! lol

increase the value for completing it, and reduce the cutscenes.
value doesnt have to be gold btw.

Behellagh.1468:

Silk was at vendor +1c before ascended came along. It was begging to be used.

I think if the number of bolts of silk were get from 100 to 50 like the refined T5 amount in the other two ascended crafted mats, the halving of demand would likely drop the price as more of that demand gets filled. Overall it would still be in greater demand that the T5 leather so it’s unlikely that the supply would become a glut that would gut the price.

But JS knows better than us the actual amount of silk scrap flowing into the TP if not the world Vs real demand. Halving the number of bolts may be too much and silk scraps would return to a glut condition. We don’t have the data.

If that is the case, i would alter supply to be more player controlled, or try to create more varied sinks that were non essential

Jerus.4350:

phys.7689:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Point is, dungeons are easy to start and easy to master. People are just spoonfed kittens.

its not easy to start if people arent starting it. easy to start means spoonfed kittens dont have problems starting it.

If i design a website for a company trying to get their name out with awesome functionality, but 50% of the people who go to the website leave because it says it works on firefox (which is easy to get, free and many people prefer it)

The company will not be satisfied, and probably pay someone else to design a new site. My site wasnt easy enough to start.

I won’t say it’s really easy to get into dungeons, they’re a bit of a shock when you first see them… which is why we have guilds like NOOB/ARES

But, a lot of the anti dungeon people aren’t saying so because it doesn’t function for them. It’s more like you made a website and there is a dropdown menu for easy quick access to every page on there that anyone would need. Very efficiently organized, everything right at your finger tips. However, some people don’t like it, they like icons, they want all the icons… ok, so you made those, placed them down towards the bottom of the home page so they’re still easily accessable for those that are confused with the dropdown menu. This doesn’t help these customers though, they’re now outraged because they don’t want to see this stinking efficient dropdown menu. It should be removed! It should just be icons and that’s it, those who find the toolbar useful should just leave, they’re unimportant, icons will reign supreme!

That’s my thought on it :b

yeah, and designing a website is about balancing all those different peoples wants/needs/desires.
right now the standard is based around simpler, easier interfaces with less options, but personally, my ideal situation is that it be simple for new users, and yet still offer experienced users superior functionality, without overloading the other guys.

Its not very easy to achieve, but thats the aim.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

When the game first came out the TP didn’t even work for like a week. I was banking all my greens cause i knew they would be worth a bunch when the TP finally went up (I ended up selling them for 3-4s per which was a kittenload of money back then) and I had no problems stashing all my greens for a week.

Sounds like you just need to git gud.

I had to destroy/vendor tons of items because i didnt have the space. I lost a ton of money

edgarallanpwn.8739:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

Why are we even caring about stupid post like that?

because the post is actually about a legitimate issue, even if the solution isnt feasible. This is a line anet has to walk carefully, and try to come up with a balance that works.

It doesn’t make the game P2W and only add revenue to the devs. I see it more like a win-win-win for every one : People who want to pay RL cash for IG gold are pleased, devs and compagny get paid, people who don’t want to spend RL money have a way to get gems for store items by only playing the game (aka earning gold and trading it for gems).

So tell me again what issue is there?

first of all, i see people dont really get the OP, hes actually on you anti p2w guys side. He made his suggestion as a means of shutting up the p2w debate once and for all. Or at least thats the side he presented.

The system definately has advantages, i know a couple friends who would not play for a signifigant amount of time if they had to pay a subscription.

However, i think its foolish to ignore the issue. Its something you have to monitor and adjust, its not going to be 100% ok or 100% bad. This system is like consuming alchohol, you have to monitor it, and control it, or else it can end up being a bad experience.

Its not a question of whether pay for in game things is 100% bad or 100% good, its about how to manage pay for in game so that it creates the best balance of gains versus losses.

But really, why would we care about P2W complainer? They are wrong and shame on them if they don’t see it, even after all the talk there has been on the subject.

because they arent wrong, they have a different opinion. There is no shame on them. There is no objective right answer on whether selling in game objectives/things is good.

If you want to develop a good system for most people, you have to realize you dont have a simple truth, you have a complex interaction

except that everyone is talking about p2w in a sense that is NOT p2w that is stereotypical, the majority, nor the natural stigma of the phrase in any way. People are trying to make and argument of p2w when its simply not. Its pay2lookfancier or pay2wear.

getting caught up on the definition of the word, doesnt really change the point people were making.

Its fine to point out a difference in the perception of a slang word, but its not really condusive to discussion to continue to argue over its meaning once you understand what the person was actually saying.

insanemaniac.2456:

phys.7689:

my take on it, silk in relationship to damask and ascended is a problem. You will continue to see people complaining about it periodically for this reason. Even amongst those who dont complain, i think a great many view it as suboptimal.

personally, i dont have an issue with silk in relation to damask. while it could be a problem, its much less of a problem than other markets where demand doesnt/cant outstrip supply. the markets that flump down to minimum price and have 2m+ units sitting there (and theres more than just leather. snowflakes, rare halloweeny mats, ambrite). yes the vendor price is of course a nice out to slurp up the oversupply, but realistically people would rather just hang on to that junk because loading up their currently selling tab with 200×250 sell orders has little opportunity cost. what really needs to happen is for anet to put in some way to drain away tons of excess supply — manipulating the amount of silk to make damask, zephyrite sanctum vendors, halloween pails, candy corn gobbler, wintersday gift mf recipe. all of those markets are healthier because of the giant drains (although.. snowflakes… ouch). the markets that are unhealthy are ridiculously high volume and do not have kitten sinks. silk is ridiculously high volume and has a big sink.

the markets, in terms of the individual value may get better, but the gameplay associated with those changes are not always better.

For example the halloween 2
yeah, candy corn went up in value.
but no, halloween did not feel like a rewarding experience for it.
and no obtaining halloween skins did not feel good.

Some changes designed to increase item value, i would say were hits, but others i would say is a miss.
Silk in ascended is a miss to me, because it is imbalanced in cost, and the requirement pass a point of comfortability which makes people disengage from the activity, which is designed to be a main activity.

Lytalm.5673:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

Why are we even caring about stupid post like that?

because the post is actually about a legitimate issue, even if the solution isnt feasible. This is a line anet has to walk carefully, and try to come up with a balance that works.

It doesn’t make the game P2W and only add revenue to the devs. I see it more like a win-win-win for every one : People who want to pay RL cash for IG gold are pleased, devs and compagny get paid, people who don’t want to spend RL money have a way to get gems for store items by only playing the game (aka earning gold and trading it for gems).

So tell me again what issue is there?

first of all, i see people dont really get the OP, hes actually on you anti p2w guys side. He made his suggestion as a means of shutting up the p2w debate once and for all. Or at least thats the side he presented.

The system definately has advantages, i know a couple friends who would not play for a signifigant amount of time if they had to pay a subscription.

However, i think its foolish to ignore the issue. Its something you have to monitor and adjust, its not going to be 100% ok or 100% bad. This system is like consuming alchohol, you have to monitor it, and control it, or else it can end up being a bad experience.

Its not a question of whether pay for in game things is 100% bad or 100% good, its about how to manage pay for in game so that it creates the best balance of gains versus losses.

But really, why would we care about P2W complainer? They are wrong and shame on them if they don’t see it, even after all the talk there has been on the subject.

because they arent wrong, they have a different opinion. There is no shame on them. There is no objective right answer on whether selling in game objectives/things is good.

If you want to develop a good system for most people, you have to realize you dont have a simple truth, you have a complex interaction

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Point is, dungeons are easy to start and easy to master. People are just spoonfed kittens.

its not easy to start if people arent starting it. easy to start means spoonfed kittens dont have problems starting it.

If i design a website for a company trying to get their name out with awesome functionality, but 50% of the people who go to the website leave because it says it works on firefox (which is easy to get, free and many people prefer it)

The company will not be satisfied, and probably pay someone else to design a new site. My site wasnt easy enough to start.

Jerus.4350:

So, Meta is most popular and it’s scaring away all the non meta players who are in abundance but don’t realize that there are others out there or are unwilling to find eachother and play with eachother? Do you think that maybe it’s because dungeons are so long and grueling when you lack the damage to down things in reasonable times, so the dungeons simply aren’t much fun when you go with a venomshare P/P thief, staff guard, Nomad water camping Staff Ele, Shoutheal War, and a Condi Necro?

I can’t help but feel it’s the second, playing poorly and taking an hour to do a path for a reward that is scaled at around 10-15mins would surely wear on me.

As for your comment on 3/8 professions being useless, you surely can’t mean ranger/engi? They’re both pretty awesome. They may not be part of the Record Run meta, but they surely have slots in your daily Speed Run. Record runs are built under the assumption that you will fail sometimes, they go for broke. Speed Runs however don’t need to take that mentality, your daily runs can easily slip in a ranger/engi effectively.

i do think that the current state is largely due to development of dungeons themselves.
Even though the situation seems circular, many problems actually feed themselves. Yes, there are a bunch of people who dont play dungeons, because they think they wont get to play dungeons, which creates the very situation they feared. Its up to anet to do something to break this cycle.

im not really casting blame at this point, im just identifying the current state of affairs.

as for the 3/8ths, i was speaking hypothetically, because at some points the meta has favored certain jobs or group compositions. And if you are not playing those jobs, you are not really wanted by a group with that focus.
It is for this reason that i dont think speedrunning can ever be inclusive. which is why i dont think its good if it becomes the primary dungeon playstyle.

I think it however is good/fine as one of the higher end goals, even though i think they could encourage more varied high end goals.

my take on it, silk in relationship to damask and ascended is a problem. You will continue to see people complaining about it periodically for this reason. Even amongst those who dont complain, i think a great many view it as suboptimal.