Guild Wars 2

Oxidia.8103:

Yesterday i put lfg for fractals: lvl 25 3rd fractal

A ranger lvl 35 joined. I gave him some time and asked: are you going to reroll or? Then i saw him load into the game with that ranger lvl35. I kicked him.

Then i wrote: lvl25, 2 warrs and 1 guard 6k+ach,bring a sock so i know you can read.

Then i had to kick 4 more people who i wouldn’t usually kick but sometimes you get kittened at the fact people don’t give 2 fornications about what’s written on lfg, hoping ohhh i’m sure i can just sliiiide trough nobody will notice tee hee.

Being “picky” as you say, is sometimes crucial for smooth runs. Being picky will not so much lead to a rage quit. Being picky will save your nerves.

Make your lfg and don’t be picky nobody is stopping you.

blame anet for the confusion between level of fractal, and level of the players who can join.

if you are giving us a quote on what you said
“are you going to reroll.. or”

wouldnt mean anything to someone with that type of error.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Bernie.8674:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Silk seems to be pretty well balanced. The price has been relatively stable, and provides a consistent income of gold for many people. I’m not sure why it “needs” to be changed at all. It seems to be the best off of the common mats. If anything they need to increase the leather needed from 150 up to 400. Mithril is pretty stable thanks to MFing of rare weapons, but with precursor hunt coming they may need to also increase mithril from 100 up to 200 or even 300.

Going by that logic, then the supply of other materials is too high. Why is silk going for 539% of the cost of mithril and 2633% of the cost of thick leather? If you seriously think it’s well balanced then I suspect you either have no cloth wearing characters or have already crafted all the ascended gear you need. At that point you have every incentive to keep prices high.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

It seems silk is in a good place. It is rare enough that people want to farm it, but common enough that people make money off it just by playing the game. I think the other mats are the main problem, they are not worth farming and many times people just sell them to the vendor. This indicates to me that they are the problem, not silk.

As soon as the time comes to craft your revenant’s gear you’re going to be crying. Consider that even for leather a single ascended piece requires 1500 silk scraps. Even if you’ve maxed out your collectible stack size, you’re going to have to fill an entire stack just to get one piece. Is that seriously “in a good place?”

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Does anyone have an actual argument as to why silk needs to be changed, other than “I don’t want to work for it, make it easier”?

Sorry, but this is a game. When I go to work I’m working. When I’m doing household chores I’m working. When I’m playing Guild Wars 2 I don’t need to work some more. If this game is going to make me work then I may as well find another diversion. It must be nice to be in a position where your RL obligations are so few and far between that you actually crave work in a virtual world.

The supply of the other materials is too high… I thought I made that pretty clear. Mithril gets produced in the largest quantities, but forging for precursors keeps the amount in check. Once you no longer need to forge precursors its supply will quickly outpace even that of leather. leather is so oversupplied that it has been more profitable to sell it to the vendor for over 2 years now.

I will certainly not be crying. In an average 2-3 hour play session in SW I get 200-300 silk scraps. That is one ascended silk mat every day, sometimes 1 in 2 days. That means in 30 days, or only 1 month of play, I will have enough to craft an entire end game set of armor that is the most powerful gear that will ever be in the game. If anything that is too short a time. I would expect an endgame armor set to take 2-3 months like in most MMO’s. And that is without ever buying any silk, I could do it in 1-2 weeks if I bought silk with the other mats I sold.

Well if you don’t have time to play the game then don’t play the game. Don’t try and ruin the challenge and investment of the game because you don’t have good time management skills.

so you think your daily requirement for 1 material for only your ascended armor, should require 2-3 hours of one of the best grind/farms currently in the game?

what if you dont like silverwastes? 6-10 hours?

most endgame sets dont actually require
60-90 hours of active play to achieve.

it may take you a couple months of raiding to get best in slot, but you are probably only raiding for those drops 2-3 hours a week, not 2-3 hours a day.

the daily grind method of gearing up tends to take less than a half hour a day, of that type of activity.

Also other games tend to have 1 – 3 possible best in slots per class. This game has like 24? different gear stat sets.

xDudisx.5914:

Finally a possible nerf to frostbow #5. Good job Anet. A buff to the smart usage of CC and a nerf to open a fight with icebow. Defience bar seems to be one of the best pve changes anet has ever done.

Jon: When we wrote the original combat blog post, a lot of people assumed we didn’t want the trinity. It wasn’t an anti-trinity, it was more of a case of “this is how we want to do this type of combat and we want these roles and we want them to be flexible.

one thing i will say, they seem to be thinking builds has something to do with berzerker.
Unless the amount of break you get scales with duration, you will still be King of CC wearing berzerker.

I wonder if any other conditions are now going to be counted as CC for the break bar
like immobilize or cripple.

One Note Chord.5031:

Crap I misread ignore me.

i meant now, in terms of, currently in the live environment, you only get a window for one CC.
So IF that continues in the new system, how would it be different?

and yeah they did suggest more than just getting one CC for breaking bosses. However they did make it seem like those would be special situations, and newer content.

Overall its probably (and this based on early info) a better system. I wonder about how well it will be retrofitted though.

Crimson Clouds.4853:

I totally agree that the current cost of Damask is ludicrous compared to the cost of the other ascended materials.

However… How would you expect them to change the recipe to say, 50 bolts of silk? Sure, people complain about the current cost, but I’m sure that plenty more people would complain if all of their damask (and silk) that they currently own dropped in price.

People would be angry because they would say that they could’ve saved X amount of money if A-net had released plans before they started crafting damask for ascended gear.

Other people would complain because they would lose out on a lot of their profit that they would’ve got on selling their bulk of silk/damask.

And more people would complain that they would have to remove all of their damask from the TP and pay to re-list them.

not fixing things because of past bad design is bad reasoning. It just causes you to build bad designs on top of bad designs.

We cant end child labor, because all the kids who had to work would be mad that the new generations of kids who dont have to work.

its true people will complain, and feel that they got screwed, but screwing more people isnt really the optimal solution.

Ayrilana.1396:

I think silk is just fine. What we need to do is fix the others so they’re the same as silk.

i think your basis for saying silk is fine is based on its per unit cost rather than its actuall use.

silk at 2 silver + is great
if you dont need 300 every day.

so really the question is, why does it cost 6 gold OR 2-3 hours grinding a day (if you arent buying it with gold) in order to meet the minimum requirement in order to get a full gear set in 30+ days time.

in other games, similar daily grinds would take you a half hour or less.

Gyler.8150:

I’m guessing all elite mobs will now be immune to blind? Maybe even vets?

only monsters who warranted defiant stacks would be, and lets be honest 10% blind is pretty bad.

I think if they get creative with break conditions, it will be more fun than the current system. However for most of the old content, they will probably not have any interesting mechanics when broken.

Miku Lawrence.6329:

http://www.tentonhammer.com/interview/guild-wars-2-interview-jon-peters-and-kevin-stocker-talk-defiance-wyvern

http://www.tentonhammer.com/preview/guild-wars-2-exclusive-meet-defiant-wyvern

• Defiance is now a bar
• Blind against boss becomes useless
• Bye bye deepfreeze
• If a CC spike opens up a window for ONE CC, good luck landing a DF instead of a Blind.

Discuss, speculate, have fun.

Want nightmares?

It sounds like the way it works is that any CC will reduce the bar by varying amounts, but that when it breaks it has a single predetermined response to that.

why bye bye deepfreeze?
cc spike already only opens a window for one CC now.

the big difference with the current implementation seems to be that you cant get the boss low, and then wait forever.
and different CCs will be of stronger value based on their power.
Which is probably pretty good

one flaw will probably be a flaw thats in common with the current system

Many CC skills are not designed just as CC skills, so using them at the wrong time is pretty bad, therefore when you are actually trying to CC a boss people cant use them very often.
They extended this to blinds as well, good example might be shadowshot, which is primarily a movement skill, with a bonus to blind. Now in a CC fight, this skill may become a no no.

might not be as bad though, because as long as the bar isnt close to breaking, you can use it relatively wihout fear.

BIGHARSHNESS.3510:

I salvage everything and get the 100 I need a day to make a spool. Impatience is expensive. I can easily get 50+ ectos in a day, but look at the price on the tp. People take the time to farm the items can set the price however they want. You either pay for convenience or you go farm the product you need. That’s just how it works.

no offense, but
you play a lot, and probably grind a lot, the game probably shouldnt be designed based on your playtime.

most players/playstles cannot get 50 rares a day without a heavy time investment

Lytalm.5673:

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Lytalm.5673:

“Hard” PvE content = Arah, HotW, CoE (arguable), TA Aether path and Fractal 40/50

umm.. I’m wanting to disagree with hotw being labeled “hard content” but then I remember pugs are still dying while ranging the troll in p1

I have to agree here, there is nothing hard about honor of the waves.

Well of course, it’s not hard for us old players that have made it more time then we can’t count. But generally, HotW is hard for pugs and they doesn’t have an easy life in that dungeon.

most of my memories of HOTW are from when the game was new, and i ran it tons of times for a friend who wanted the token armor. We werent pros and there was no meta, and my feeling on it was it was a really straight forward, fairly boring dungeon, that we virtually never wiped or had difficulties with. people might get downed, but it was rare to wipe.

I think its possible its slightly harder to zerk speed run than others, but its really easy to play it normally, with non specialized builds.

One Note Chord.5031:

phys.7689:

But there really is nothing to say they shouldnt run dungeons like that.

I promise I’m not trying to be antagonistic here. I’m just genuinely curious. Do you think the same can be said about, say, people who sit on turrets doing nothing during teq? Or people who pop poison bubbles early at indigo during the breach, so the teragriffs never get stunned?

That is, is there nothing to say people shouldn’t run teq or the breach like that? And if there is, what’s the difference between expecting random people in a map to do things right and expecting random people in a non-specific (e.g., “p1” with no qualifiers) dungeon pug to do things right?

I ask, again, not to pick a fight or anything, but just because I can’t see a relevant difference, and I might be missing something. To me, it seems like for open world events the community places the burden on the participants: if you don’t know the best way to do things, you either need to look it up or ask in map chat, and if somebody explains in map chat, we blame you for not following the explanation. If you’re simply incapable of doing what is required, you’re expected to leave it to somebody else.

But for dungeons, you’re saying it should be the opposite: unless you explicitly say you want people who know the best ways to do things, you have to expect nobody to know anything, and you can’t expect anybody to listen or change what they’re doing if you try to explain in party chat. If your party isn’t capable of doing what is required, it’s not their job to leave; it’s yours.

What am I missing?

the difference is that the designers intended, and limited the design of those elements to have one specific purpose.

They however didnt intentionally design a weaponset/classes not to be used ever. There is no player investment in a tequatl turret, however there could be a fairly large investment in a dual pistol build for a player.

They could have gained knowledge, learned its strengths and weaknesses, picked traits and invested considerable time and money on ascended or huntsman crafting. Now to say that someone who invested that much into a certain playstyle should abandon it to play your way, in a game room they may have opened themselves with no requisites?

I understand you may want to play a specific way, but isnt that what the specific rooms are for? Isnt it unreasonable to go into a non specific room, looking for a specific style of play?

by and large in the open world you are not really asked to play according to a specifc style, these encounters are the exception, and not the rule. And to be honest tequatl generally doesnt require a playstyle change. Most of the strategies are on a macro level, not on a personal playstyle/build level.

Dhemize.8649:

I can gather almost 100 bolts for demask every 2-3 days from salvaging items drops and armor bought with dungeon tokens. Earn gold and gain scraps this way instead of “I want it right now” and throwing money at the TP. If people would stop acting rushed the supply would drop the price. The xpac won’t be for some time so really… no rush.

if you were meant to do it in 2-3 days, why is there daily craft requiring 2-3 days work
coincidentally other materials use 2-3 times less base materials.
100 base metals to 300 base scraps
150 base leather to 300 base scraps
1:3
1:2

Almost like they require 2-3 times too much base materials gathered for their intended design.

and that doesnt even include the basic flawed design with cloth crafts versus leather/metals

Nike.2631:

I’m going with “Because coin continues to flood into the system.”

nope, what the player is talking about isnt inflation, its the relative price changes. Also inflation isnt really that rapid in general, unless something is wrong

Meryn.6875:

jportell.2197:

Now I don’t join LFG’s unless they say zerker 80 speed run. Please don’t run stupid builds in dungeons

Well to be honest, unless you state “zerker 80 speed run” or alike, I expect it to be a casual/noob-friendly run. I would actually encourage new players to join LFG’s like this, since these are the only parties where they are accepted and able to play what they want.

Basically what you say is you didn’t specify what kind of party you wanted, and are now unhappy with what you got. It is like going to a candy store, asking for random a random sweet and then complaining that you didn’t want that one.

If you dont want stupid builds in your party, either make sure your LFG is clear about it or dont wine about what you get.

he said joined a group, so most likely he didnt make the group, and has no logical reason to complain. Many people join regular groups expecting them to be like a lite version of a speed run group, when thats not really the case.

Which is why i suggest there is a more clear delineation in purpose between speed run groups and non speed groups.

Wethospu.6437:

phys.7689:

Wethospu.6437:

I wonder how people managed to finish dungeons when game launched. No veterans for help. No guides to look up. Somehow we still managed.

the dungeon running community as a whole was very different in their expectations. Zerk parties were rare, and didnt run most paths.
just avoiding cof was enough to avoid most speed groups.

Lfg didnt exactly exist, so it represented a smaller part of the whole. (it was an offsite tool, not everyone used)

People had often shouted to find members, which ended up being people from your server/community. Thus making kicks less common as you were likely to see these people again and again. Kicks were generally a last resort, instead of the first option.

Basically most of the people dissatisfied, wouldnt be disatisfied with how it used to be, because a general party, usually was a general party, without too many expectations other than the group would try to work together to beat the dungeon.

The real problem is that now general non specific groups are rarer, and half the people still expect people to be doing speedrun type tactics, just not as good at it, or slightly sub optimal builds.

Essentially whats left of the dungeon running players is not something that a new/non meta player is going to be able to experience in a positive way

I’m not sure if I would label spending like 2 hours wiping on Subject Alpha “a positive way”. Or having to give up on a dungeon like AC exp because we couldn’t beat Kholer.

I think its better to be able to play, than to be kicked or not be able to find anyone who will accept you at all.

Its ok to fail and learn while playing for a lot of guys. Im sure your path to learning the game was full of multiple deaths, different strategies that failed, and your experiences seeing how/why people would fail at various things.

That path no longer exists. In some ways its good, maybe in other ways its bad, but regardless, if you aint attempting to speed run(even p1 groups generally attempting some version of a speed run), there is substantially less options.

I think we can both agree that people who played the game at start had a very different experience with dungeons no matter how you slice it.

Wethospu.6437:

I wonder how people managed to finish dungeons when game launched. No veterans for help. No guides to look up. Somehow we still managed.

the dungeon running community as a whole was very different in their expectations. Zerk parties were rare, and didnt run most paths.
just avoiding cof was enough to avoid most speed groups.

Lfg didnt exactly exist, so it represented a smaller part of the whole. (it was an offsite tool, not everyone used)

People had often shouted to find members, which ended up being people from your server/community. Thus making kicks less common as you were likely to see these people again and again. Kicks were generally a last resort, instead of the first option.

Basically most of the people dissatisfied, wouldnt be disatisfied with how it used to be, because a general party, usually was a general party, without too many expectations other than the group would try to work together to beat the dungeon.

The real problem is that now general non specific groups are rarer, and half the people still expect people to be doing speedrun type tactics, just not as good at it, or slightly sub optimal builds.

Essentially whats left of the dungeon running players is not something that a new/non meta player is going to be able to experience in a positive way

jportell.2197:

Until I got into a party with two unload thieves, a norn warrior using snow wurm, and an engi that used turrets (flame/rifle) in dungeons.

Now I don’t join LFG’s unless they say zerker 80 speed run. Please don’t run stupid builds in dungeons

when you reach the point that people running their own builds and not knowing how to fight boss optimally inspires uncontrollable rage, its probably best to seperate yourself into a like minded group.

So yeah, what you say is logical, their playstyle causes you distress, so play with people who dont.

But there really is nothing to say they shouldnt run dungeons like that.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Lytalm.5673:

“Hard” PvE content = Arah, HotW, CoE (arguable), TA Aether path and Fractal 40/50

umm.. I’m wanting to disagree with hotw being labeled “hard content” but then I remember pugs are still dying while ranging the troll in p1

I have to agree here, there is nothing hard about honor of the waves.

Sam Gem.1246:

Guys, after 35 attempts today, I got the spark.
Final results are for the dagger:
Attempts: 1088
Exotics received: 218
Legendaries received: 1
Exotic drop rate: 20.04%
Legendary drop rate: 0.09%

Annoyingly, I had prepared all the mats to go to war. Now I’ll have to sell some of it and keep the inscriptions…

Using my jsfiddle, and with the values of found here: http://jsfiddle.net/a6qpsso5/13/
4000 copper for rare value
32000 copper for exotic value

I’m in the money apparently. My spark was 50 gold less than the TP one.

grats, you are now free of the mystic forge, until next time!

Nike.2631:

phys.7689:

yes, probability is instaneous,

the chance of him getting it before attempts were made may have been 90%
but with every fail the probability changed.

the chances of me losing the next 499 times are..
the chances of me losing the next 498 times are..
the chances of me losing the next 3 times are..

You know the chance of the run failing to produce a success GOES UP for every failure, not down, right?

Your odds of getting a precursor in the course of 500 tries are never better than on the first try. Because after the first try, you’re just trying to get one in a run of 499 attempts. Then in a run of 498 tries.

You are losing chances, not driving the non-existent God-of-Fairness to cut you a break.

yes that was exactly what i was pointing out. he started out at 90%, and with every fail he was further down the road of being in the 10% that lose given that many tries

Jerus.4350:

Do you think you could actually get a zerker only filter to fly?

What would the limitations be? Would it be stat based to include builds also? What about build variation? What about if someone has say a knights greatsword that they got in an ascended box and set it up for Arah with an undead sigil making it better (?) than their exotic weapon that has force/night?

See my fear is that any objective thing would have either loopholes to get around it, or be so strict that it’d eliminate people running completel legitimate stuff but isn’t “perfect”.

If it’s based on armor type will assassin be allowed in “zerk” parties?
Will and AH guard on staff that simply has zerk gear be allowed?

The details of such a system worry me, implemented poorly and it could simply be a nightmare to play with.

And the whole “speed run”“lets get it done” “learning” idea, i simply don’t see the benefit of it over the current notes other than clarifying what “exp” means, which we could all simply stop being lazy and type “experienced”. In the end it’s all subjective still though.

the objective filters hes currently talking about is
class
level

the non objective filters work all the time. its not just about filtering people its also about setting player expectations.

lets say you make a game mode called
YOU WILL DIE IN ONE HIT mode
people will not be surprised if they die in one hit.
they are less likely complain that you will die in one hit mode is too hard.

speedrun does not properly set player expectations, neither does experienced.
the truth is speedrunning is practically a totally different mode of play, the focus is to kill as few enemies as possible.

Back in the days PSO used to have two ways to get an S rank in a special mission, kill everything or kill some minimal number of enemies, like 9 enemies in the whole instance .

The game play of doing it in the minimal was totally different. People going for 9 enemy kills knew they had to know exactly which 9 enemies to kill, they might have to be aware of hidden paths, fight bosses with single targets, and kill specific monsters within a wave to open doors.
Speedrunning is similar to this in its differences in gameplay, its not simply just doing the same thing faster, and a lot of people dont really get that.

Nike.2631:

Sam Gem.1246:

Whatever. I’m staying the course.

There is no “course”.

Your previous attempts have not changed your likelihood of success in the future by any percentage. Zero. Non-relevant. Discrete events. User-error detected. Gambler’s Fallacy wins again.

Just like having a precursor drop doesn’t magically reset the number of attempts counter before your next one.

yes, probability is instaneous,

the chance of him getting it before attempts were made may have been 90%
but with every fail the probability changed.
the chances of me losing the next 499 times are..
the chances of me losing the next 498 times are..
the chances of me losing the next 3 times are..

basically, for those attempts he fell into the unlucky category, for the next attempts he is in the who knows but its fairly unlikely category.

pdavis.8031:

@OP

It seems that your chief complaint is not that you didn’t get a pre after X amount of attempts, but that because you didn’t get a pre after X attempts, then your account has been “flagged, cursed, marked, etc.”.

It has been confirmed that there are 0 accounts that have been marked, or tampered with in such a way as to effect their Luck and or RNG tables. This is someone that Anet simply does not, and will never do. So unless the devs are lying, which they have no reason to, then someone else who has a grude against you, and access to a voodoo witch doctor is responsible.

(And if they WERE out to get you with voodoo, or other occultic measures, why would they just target you GW2 account? Why not something like your job, or health, or something….Just saying.)

doesnt matter if he is flagged or not, he exists, and he is supposed to exist as long as the system is doing random according to our current expectations for random

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Time meta is 5 mesmers using time warp right?

perhaps not.

Jerus.4350:

I don’t see the point of those categories in the sense that, how do they differ from simply putting in an LFG message?

1) because categories can set up standardized meanings.
2) people often think their wording is really clear when its not.
perfect example i used to see all the time

p1 exp

what does exp mean?

• explorable
• doing it for exp (gaining levels)
• must be experienced
  • what does experienced even mean? i could have done a dungeon 100 times and not know whatever the meta for speed runs is, i can be highly experienced at dungeon vanquishing, or playing

by setting up a category for intent, with clear delineation, you get people who are more likely to have the same intent with their play.

sorudo.9054:

Lazaar.9123:

Hmm.7902:

I get the feeling that lots of people here are instantly spitting out “holy trinity holy trinity” whenever someone’s not satisfied with the status quo. The thing is though that this isn’t about holy trinity, it’s about almost every other build but damage, being it via boons, conditions or just pure dps being not viable enough, to a point were skilling that way would be detriment to your team and yourself in every major aspect of the game and it makes you wonder why certain attribute combinations on items are even there when Arena.Net seemingly doesn’t want dedicated “healers” or “tanks” – not even in the classical way, but in the GW2 sense.

And Lazaar, while it’s true that the meta right now is called support/control/damage there is no dedicated support/control/damage in the sense that someone skills fully into control or fully into damage. All three categories are hybrids of damage dealers + team utility. So your point’s really moot.

My point isn’t moot, because Guild Wars 2 is designed with the idea in mind that everyone can fill all three roles. Also, there is people in this thread that do want a hard trinity in guild wars 2, don’t pretend they don’t exist.

if that’s the case then why is it then only a small group of like 3 professions can do the roles effectively, can a necro do just as much DPS as a warrior?

the necro can do just as much dps as a warrior, he just doesnt have a lot of team synergy, and doesnt fit well into the way teams are handling dungeon encounters on a speed level.

warriors arent considered the best dps for some time now, its more about the utility, variability, and teamplay they can bring to the table, than their dps.

in fact the dungeon meta is more based on teamplay and support than highest straight up damage for a class.

necro doesnt play well with others is what it boils down to.

Buttercup.5871:

Travis the Terrible.4739:

Op showing his math skills that are wrong in every thing ever involving a random number generator.

If your chance of getting a pre is .2% from rares. No matter how many times you forge its still going to be .2%. It doesnt matter if you do it 500 times or 3.

And you just showed that you didn’t read a single post in this thread. You’re assuming a true RNG system which this game does not have. It’s pseudo RNG meaning the rolls are predetermined. And if your lucky number for getting a precursor only pops up at times that you’re either asleep or at work, you can chuck whatever you want in that forge but the chance you’ll get a precursor is zero, not .2%.

there is no guarantee the seed is time based and not re rolled often.

hybrid.5027:

From what I understand Honor of the Waves p1 “speed clear” pugs AFK range the troll. So there is a lot of misuse of that term, yes.

which is another reason i would want to give meta speed style of play a different/new name, IF it is supposed to represent a category for people to choose which means they want to play in a time focused meta style of play

perhaps

time meta

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

this is true, but even when these things didnt net you more, or at least people didnt know about it as much, people did these other things because these other things are highly accessible.

the basic dungeon running needs to be more accessible

Fractal 50 is more accessible than regular dungeons?

I think this just about discredits every argument you have.

uh the point of my statement was that even if boss trains gave the same rewards as dungeons, people would not do it because it is less accesible.

the guy as i understand it is saying that fractals/dungeons give crappy rewards, and that makes people not want to do fractals/dungeons.

I think you are too focused on debating me and not focused on the actual problems people are trying to discuss.

*edit, reading my statement again, i probably used too many pronouns without defining them, i think you were assuming different things my pronouns were refering to.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Then people learn the first time they make a mistake, and go to the right checkout.
In future they go to the right checkout, and they tell their friends which checkout they should go to.

Much the same thing will happen with this filter. People might make a mistake. kitten happens. People learn from their mistakes, or they are too stupid to learn from their mistakes and keep making them until they get suppressed from the lfg.

SpeedClear is not an unclear phrase. It is very commonly used. Naming it something vague, or using some made up term will simply make it harder for people to understand what it is. That is not a good thing.

The fact remains, you are calling people too stupid to figure out which type of group they should join. I find that rude. I’m sure many others will too.

its bad design to create a UI that leads people to the wrong choices, even if they will eventually learn what it means
Trust me, as a designer, its considered a nono

Getting kicked from a speed clear party is not a good experience.

However, for things you dont want people to select unless they are in the know, its fine to make them less accessible.

this is why generally UI will hide the advanced tabs, or have non essential folders default to hidden, or at the very least make it not a base option.

You dont want anyone going into a speedclear party without having prior knowlege as to what speedclearing is all about, correct? therefore it makes sense that the word should not be something they would have a false familiarity with.

i dont care about how smart or how stupid people are, minimizing undesirable outcomes, while giving the same options is a win/win. in terms of UI design.

i dont think anyone finds the name of a category rude, you might find my motivations rude, but my motivations are irrelevant.

heres my goal

people only join speedruns when they know how to speedrun, this basically involves following whatever is meta, probably doing research ahead of time, practicing, and learning all the tricks for a specific dungeon.

people who dont know how to speedrun, and just want to beat a dungeon join the second group

people who want to learn or teach join the last.

This means the first category should not be as accessible as the 2nd, one easy soft method to adjust accessibility is in naming it.

Zenith.7301:

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

If you join the speed clear group expecting to be asked to alter your build. Its quite simple.

Would be quite easy to add a tooltip description to each category.

There are ( as far as i can see) 4 categories of dungeon running
1) record running
2) speed clearing
3) completion
4) learning the ropes.

Record running NEVER uses pugs. IF you think this category pugs, then you belong in the 4th category.
Category 4 is pretty obvious – go here if you are unsure/new/returning. Alternatively if you want to teach the aforementioned players.

Category 2 and 3 are the ones who need segregating.
Those who want to speed clear.
and those who just want to complete.

Problem lies in: those who want to complete, want to sponge off those who are speed clearing. Those who just want to complete – without coordinating party composition should join category 3.

The problem you are stating is thus: People want to enjoy having a fast run without coordinating or balancing party composition or getting into teamspeak.
This right here is why people keep getting booted from parties.
With the lfg options it will be straightforward:
Join the completion groups, or make your own.

You’re pretty much calling people too stupid to figure this out, which is quite insulting.
There is still going to be trolls.These trolls can join “exp zerk ele only” groups with a level necro in dire gear, nothing we can do about that.

However reasonable players will grasp this quickly and make use of it.
IF we can improve the experience for reasonable players, and help them find like minded players, then the filter would be a success. Any reasonable player should see the speed clear and its tooltip, and expect they may have to change build.
If you get kicked for refusing to do so, it is much more clear you only have yourself to blame. You should have joined or formed a “Completion” group not a “Speed Clear” group.
If someone kicks you from an anything goes group over build or playstyle – yeah, QQ. They were being dirtbags ( which is also borderline LFG abuse and reportable..).
a tooltip for each category with a short description would help considerably.

So again:
Record Run – for breaking completion time records
Speed Clear – for highly coordinated meta runs.
Completion – anything goes.
Learning – for learning or teaching how to do the dungeon.

Added meta to speed clear, as that may help with confusion.
This is no way should replace the text for each LFG.

you could use speed clear if you want in the description, but i am telling you, it will increase your chances of getting legitimate misses. Its not about intelligent or not intelligent, its about how people interpret words and preconceived notions.

Speed clear can mean something to people who are unfamiliar with your terminology.

if you have checkouts counters marked

Speed checkout
normal checkout
special checkout

people will go to the speed checkout when they want to check out fast, not realizing that this checkout may require you to have a cart that automatically tabulates everything in your cart, and accept credit card payments only.

thus making the line very slow, and annoying all people who know what they are supposed to do.

If it was named
CartCreditSpeed checkout people would only go in there if they already knew what the hell CartCreditSpeed is.

they wouldnt assume they knew what it meant.

As to the main problem being people leeching, no thats not really the main problem. Thats actually a very small problem, sure we can try to take care of it, but its actually a very small issue when it comes to the overall health and accessibility of dungeons. I can assure you, the vast majority of people not attempting dungeons, is not because newbs keep joining their speedruns and trying to leech.

Yeah, it’s probably because doing open world farm trains or playing the auction house will net you far more rewards than any speed run will ever get you.

This game doesn’t reward you for actually playing the game or doing challenging content.

The lv50 fractal rewards including rings you don’t need (considering if you have 70+ AR are you already have all accessories+10 agony at least infused on each slot) and the awful gold reward for time spent is testament to a reward scheme that’s perverted.

this is true, but even when these things didnt net you more, or at least people didnt know about it as much, people did these other things because these other things are highly accessible.

the basic dungeon running needs to be more accessible

Artemis Thuras.8795:

If you join the speed clear group expecting to be asked to alter your build. Its quite simple.

Would be quite easy to add a tooltip description to each category.

There are ( as far as i can see) 4 categories of dungeon running
1) record running
2) speed clearing
3) completion
4) learning the ropes.

Record running NEVER uses pugs. IF you think this category pugs, then you belong in the 4th category.
Category 4 is pretty obvious – go here if you are unsure/new/returning. Alternatively if you want to teach the aforementioned players.

Category 2 and 3 are the ones who need segregating.
Those who want to speed clear.
and those who just want to complete.

Problem lies in: those who want to complete, want to sponge off those who are speed clearing. Those who just want to complete – without coordinating party composition should join category 3.

The problem you are stating is thus: People want to enjoy having a fast run without coordinating or balancing party composition or getting into teamspeak.
This right here is why people keep getting booted from parties.
With the lfg options it will be straightforward:
Join the completion groups, or make your own.

You’re pretty much calling people too stupid to figure this out, which is quite insulting.
There is still going to be trolls.These trolls can join “exp zerk ele only” groups with a level necro in dire gear, nothing we can do about that.

However reasonable players will grasp this quickly and make use of it.
IF we can improve the experience for reasonable players, and help them find like minded players, then the filter would be a success. Any reasonable player should see the speed clear and its tooltip, and expect they may have to change build.
If you get kicked for refusing to do so, it is much more clear you only have yourself to blame. You should have joined or formed a “Completion” group not a “Speed Clear” group.
If someone kicks you from an anything goes group over build or playstyle – yeah, QQ. They were being dirtbags ( which is also borderline LFG abuse and reportable..).
a tooltip for each category with a short description would help considerably.

So again:
Record Run – for breaking completion time records
Speed Clear – for highly coordinated meta runs.
Completion – anything goes.
Learning – for learning or teaching how to do the dungeon.

Added meta to speed clear, as that may help with confusion.
This is no way should replace the text for each LFG.

you could use speed clear if you want in the description, but i am telling you, it will increase your chances of getting legitimate misses. Its not about intelligent or not intelligent, its about how people interpret words and preconceived notions.

Speed clear can mean something to people who are unfamiliar with your terminology.

if you have checkouts counters marked

Speed checkout
normal checkout
special checkout

people will go to the speed checkout when they want to check out fast, not realizing that this checkout may require you to have a cart that automatically tabulates everything in your cart, and accept credit card payments only.

thus making the line very slow, and annoying all people who know what they are supposed to do.

If it was named
CartCreditSpeed checkout people would only go in there if they already knew what the hell CartCreditSpeed is.

they wouldnt assume they knew what it meant.

As to the main problem being people leeching, no thats not really the main problem. Thats actually a very small problem, sure we can try to take care of it, but its actually a very small issue when it comes to the overall health and accessibility of dungeons. I can assure you, the vast majority of people not attempting dungeons, is not because newbs keep joining their speedruns and trying to leech.

Halvorn.9831:

public class RnGTest {
public static void main(String[] args) {
long max = Long.MIN_VALUE;
long min = Long.MAX_VALUE;
long lastHit = 0;
System.out.println(“Starting…”);
for (long count = 0; count < 10000000; count++) {
int rnd = (int)(Math.random() * 1000);
if (rnd == 123) {
long diff = count – lastHit;
lastHit = count;
max = Math.max(max, diff);
min = Math.min(min, diff);
}
}
System.out.println(“Complete.”);
System.out.println(String.format(“Min %d, Max %d”, min, max));
}
}

This program uses prng to create a 1 in 1000 chance and then calculates on a million tries the maximum streak and the minimum streak
between two hits.

A few runs:
Min 1, Max 10093
Min 1, Max 9812
Min 1, Max 9336
Min 1, Max 11568

What that means:

although the chance was 1 in 1000, on a million attempts the programs finds out that the maximum unlucky streak can be as much as 10000 attempts between hits. The minimal attempts btw. is more or less 1 always.

TL;DR:
a) It doesn’t work as you think.
b) RNG is crap as it is ignoring player commitment
c) I loved the moment when Spark dropped

just gonna throw this out there,
maximum attempts is infinite in any actually random situation. Though it may be unlikely.

your program is showing the results of its trial, which seems to be around 10k for the max out of 3 runs.
but it is completely within the realms of possibility to go longer.

Tman.6349:

It alters the ‘effectiveness of Fury’. A 50% increase in effectiveness for a total of +30% crit chance from the Fury boon.

they should change the description to say
fury grants 30% chance to crit instead of 20%

the wording is a problem, still early enough to catch that though

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

On the topic of filters:

Speed Clear – for highly coordinated efficient runs.
Completion – anything goes.
Learning – for learning or teaching how to do the dungeon.

How does this sound? I’d agree the first option it needs to be brutally obvious it’s a different style of play to the second. Third is obvious what to expect imo.
However record runs are different to a typical speed clear tour. The “meta” is different again. However that really doesn’t need an LFG category, that is purely the domain of guilds and teamspeak. pug and record run just doesn’t mix.

speed clear just sounds like they will clear it fast to a layman.
Come up with a new word if you dont like time attack, but it has to seem like its not just about being fast.

But it is about being fast. Thats the point..

look at it from the eyes of someone who is unfamiliar with the current meta.

The drop down options are asking them what they want to do.

1)do you want to be fast (this is what speed clear sounds like to them)
2)do you want to complete the dungeon
3)do you want to learn

a lot of people who dont want to time attack, or play the general meta will figure, hey i want to do this fast.

you dont want that to happen. you want people to think, hey this is a specialized mode, and i may not want to do what it takes to take part in it. Which words you pick are key here in setting up user expectations.

you want the user to expect that he is not going to be playing the game in a normal way.

the actual meta for a speed clear is not equivalent to doing a dungeon normally, but fast, even though the words may lead people to believe that.

Ashen.2907:

phys.7689:

Ashen.2907:

Buttercup.5871:

Ensign.2189:

Ashen.2907:

Predetermined and random are not mutually exclusive. If a predetermined result is determined randomly, and one does not know the randomly generated predetermined result, what is the difference?

Without delving too far into the philosophy of random variables, the crux of predetermination is whether or not an outcome is knowable before the observation. If you shuffle a deck of cards and place it face down on the table, the order is determined – they have a physical order on the table – but barring marked cards or improper shuffling the identity of each card is unknown until it is observed (at which point it’s merely data).

So predetermination isn’t so much about whether or not there’s an immutable order, but whether or not that order is knowable without observation.

So if I’m putting that deck of cards to you every day at predetermined timed intervals and in the same order, you think a year later it’s still a mystery when the queen of spades is going to surface?

Are your perceptions sufficiently fast to react to the passage of milliseconds? If that predetemined timed interval is .001 seconds? A year later the act of pressing the buttons for operating the forge will be off. Your internet connection response varies slightly, your own nervous system response for pressing the keys varies slightly, your keyboard mechanical response varies slightly, your computer response time to keyboard input varies slightly. Your ability to factor all of those variances in order to activate a trade at the exact same millisecond each time is nonexistent.

people do have internal rythyms, it doesnt need to be exactly the same to eliminate possibilities, or generate patterns.

people arent clocks that consistently will go out of wack, they tend to reset their off timings eventually.

now, is this happening? who knows. The truth it doesnt matter if its really random or not, 1/1000 chances , that take people 2 months-12 months worth to try 1000 times, is a recipe for dissatisfaction.

Random working according to known rules is probably not going to give a lot of users a satisfactory experience.

It does need to be exact if you are intending to try to perform the action at exactly the same point in a cycle with a millisecond based reset pattern.

Sure people have rythms but nerve conductivity responds to diet and mechanical reaction can be influenced by elements as varied as weather, amount of sleep, and so on. Those rythms you mention exist within ranges not specific exact numbers as a norm. If you test an individual’s reaction time you Wi generally find that it varies from test to test within a range of possibilities. It may be a small range but even that small range will prevent one from accurately judging and responding to milliseconds.

correct, but the point is those patterns, create a pattern within the random. Once there is patterns, it isnt going to be that random for that user.
The same thing can happen in real life, if a person has a habit of shuffling the same number of times, the same way, and starts from the same state, there will be less variation than probability would state is normal.

if you got a random seed, which was designed to produce a random like spread based on the user doing picking 1-10, but the users unconscious patterns almost never pick 5 of those numbers, you essentially get a system that is not as random as intended.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

On the topic of filters:

Speed Clear – for highly coordinated efficient runs.
Completion – anything goes.
Learning – for learning or teaching how to do the dungeon.

How does this sound? I’d agree the first option it needs to be brutally obvious it’s a different style of play to the second. Third is obvious what to expect imo.
However record runs are different to a typical speed clear tour. The “meta” is different again. However that really doesn’t need an LFG category, that is purely the domain of guilds and teamspeak. pug and record run just doesn’t mix.

speed clear just sounds like they will clear it fast to a layman.
Come up with a new word if you dont like time attack, but it has to seem like its not just about being fast.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Also, The “artificial barriers” to dungeon running is created by those unwilling to adapt to the content. Those who become abusive and/or yell “toxic elitists!” the moment they are asked to use a better set of traits or weapon so as to be useful to the party.

There are plenty of dungeon guilds willing to train people. Many don’t want to learn, just free gold while watching tv on another screen ( for example).
Many who can train, refuse to, due to the abuse they have received in the past.

The artificial barriers are created soley in the minds of those who are excluding themselves from group content.

edit:
I do, and always will kick pugs who cannot read an lfg listing.
Why? – Because if they can’t read lfg, what chance have I got of them reading party chat and being a useful member of my party?

This “artificial barrier” is created by people who are unable or unwilling to read. Not by me, or my party members.

no, you are wrong.

the barrier is, that some people expect people to be playing a time attack meta, and others expect people to be playing a beat the dungeon meta. And of these two groups, some people get highly upset when the other doesnt see it his way.

lol.
no, I am quite correct in saying that many players have zero interest in working as a team. Zero interest in getting better at the game (something which sounds completely preposterous to me but w/e).
Anybody should now by now, the internet has kittens on it. You simply have to find those who aren’t.

“artificial barriers” are solely in the minds of those excluding themselves.

the barrier is peoples standardized expectations for every player.
Its a very real barrier if people will kick you for not playing the way they want you to.

not everyone wants to play a time attacks version of the game. Some people see beating a dungeon as annihilating it (vanquishing) Others see it as doing the most challenging content in the dungeon. Some see it as doing the most fun things. Some see it as figuring out how to play their own build as effeciently as possible.

the people who are left still playing dungeons are the primarily the people who have accepted this meta, dont know about the meta, or are seeking to get over using the meta/meta players.

there is a ton of people who left because the barrier to entry is to play that meta

eithinan.9841:

All these angry people about a random thing. An old quote I heard a long time ago applies here. “Never gamble with something you are not willing to lose”

I notice a lot of these threads are from people saying “I dumped 10000000 greatswords into the forge and got nothing qq” They are not happy about losing all the gold the invested in crafting weapons and forging them.

I am never mad when I dont get a precursor because I do it casually and dont miss the small investment over time. I just use rare weapon drops and forge them all. I have pulled 3/4 precursors I have had from the forge but I dont care how many I have put in. Because it is gambling. Either I get what I wanted or not, simple aas that and I move on.

yes, but gambling should not be the main route to obtaining something

it means you either have to gamble, or pay a price large enough that the gamblers make money, which means its going cost a noticeable amount more than it costs on average

Ashen.2907:

Buttercup.5871:

Ensign.2189:

Ashen.2907:

Predetermined and random are not mutually exclusive. If a predetermined result is determined randomly, and one does not know the randomly generated predetermined result, what is the difference?

Without delving too far into the philosophy of random variables, the crux of predetermination is whether or not an outcome is knowable before the observation. If you shuffle a deck of cards and place it face down on the table, the order is determined – they have a physical order on the table – but barring marked cards or improper shuffling the identity of each card is unknown until it is observed (at which point it’s merely data).

So predetermination isn’t so much about whether or not there’s an immutable order, but whether or not that order is knowable without observation.

So if I’m putting that deck of cards to you every day at predetermined timed intervals and in the same order, you think a year later it’s still a mystery when the queen of spades is going to surface?

Are your perceptions sufficiently fast to react to the passage of milliseconds? If that predetemined timed interval is .001 seconds? A year later the act of pressing the buttons for operating the forge will be off. Your internet connection response varies slightly, your own nervous system response for pressing the keys varies slightly, your keyboard mechanical response varies slightly, your computer response time to keyboard input varies slightly. Your ability to factor all of those variances in order to activate a trade at the exact same millisecond each time is nonexistent.

people do have internal rythyms, it doesnt need to be exactly the same to eliminate possibilities, or generate patterns.

people arent clocks that consistently will go out of wack, they tend to reset their off timings eventually.

now, is this happening? who knows. The truth it doesnt matter if its really random or not, 1/1000 chances , that take people 2 months-12 months worth to try 1000 times, is a recipe for dissatisfaction.

Random working according to known rules is probably not going to give a lot of users a satisfactory experience.

BammBamm.6719:

Buttercup.5871:

Ashen.2907:

Predetermined and random are not mutually exclusive. If a predetermined result is determined randomly, and one does not know the randomly generated predetermined result, what is the difference?

The difference is when you find out at which moment the predetermined set of outcomes resets – let’s assume at the usual reset time – and around which time after that reset your lucky RNG number should pop up in the predetermined sequence. Some people who forged an incredible amount of precursors will always do so at a certain time of the day. They do that for a reason.

pretty sure when they use time in any way for rng, it would be milliseconds and smaller and not hours

milliseconds is still subject to internal rythyms and subconsicous timing.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

Rising Dusk.2408:

EcoRI.9273:

The thing about filtering systems is that sometimes the things you don’t want just get through but what it does do is decrease that amount. I mean kitten even Heisenberg with his one hundred and one purifying steps(filtering) for making meth can only go so far. No matter how good a filtering system is, it does not guarantee 100% good experience. Imo all it has to do is to be able to good enough most of the time. I think the filter system will definitely eliminate a lot of toxic players for the beginner levels, which I feel is the most important aspect. If beginners are having a good time, there is a good chance of getting fresh blood into the dungeon community. As for advanced, that is where most of the toxic players will be imo. In league most bronze v think they are gold and that the reason they stay in bronze v is because of their teammates lol(bad skilled players thinking they are good and blaming others). and in League its called Elo Hell because of how toxic those people are.

All fair points. I’ll add self-classifying filters to the proposal and see where it goes. What are we thinking in terms of skill-based filters:

• Beginner
• Intermediate
• Advanced

Do we think Intermediate makes sense? Just the bounding two or do we like the middle rank?

dont make the filter skill based, make intent based.

• time attack- users use optimized parties and specialized builds and aim for record times
• dungeon completion – lets get it done
• Learning learning or teaching the ropes

this way you group people with similar intents, rather than how they classify themselves.

+1
This classification makes far more sense, and is far more meaningful.

Edit:
I’d tweak the description of time attack though. People may not be aiming for “record runs” but do want a fast run. Record runs often take practice attempts and lucky rng from bosses

Maybe something like:
“for players who use optimized builds and team compositions, and are aim to complete as quickly as they can”

i kept the description focused on highly elite times, because its better to get the people on the low end of the time attack, then to have people selecting it thinking it means they just want to do it fast, it has to be clear that the playstyle of the dungeon is going to be different, and people are going to build themselves, and play with time being the main focus, not individuality, or personal preference

you want it to seem offputting, and like there is going to be pressure to be perfect, because there is, even if they dont achieve record times, they are broadly aiming for the same thing

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Also, The “artificial barriers” to dungeon running is created by those unwilling to adapt to the content. Those who become abusive and/or yell “toxic elitists!” the moment they are asked to use a better set of traits or weapon so as to be useful to the party.

There are plenty of dungeon guilds willing to train people. Many don’t want to learn, just free gold while watching tv on another screen ( for example).
Many who can train, refuse to, due to the abuse they have received in the past.

The artificial barriers are created soley in the minds of those who are excluding themselves from group content.

edit:
I do, and always will kick pugs who cannot read an lfg listing.
Why? – Because if they can’t read lfg, what chance have I got of them reading party chat and being a useful member of my party?

This “artificial barrier” is created by people who are unable or unwilling to read. Not by me, or my party members.

no, you are wrong.

the barrier is, that some people expect people to be playing a time attack meta, and others expect people to be playing a beat the dungeon meta. And of these two groups, some people get highly upset when the other doesnt see it his way.

Rising Dusk.2408:

EcoRI.9273:

The thing about filtering systems is that sometimes the things you don’t want just get through but what it does do is decrease that amount. I mean kitten even Heisenberg with his one hundred and one purifying steps(filtering) for making meth can only go so far. No matter how good a filtering system is, it does not guarantee 100% good experience. Imo all it has to do is to be able to good enough most of the time. I think the filter system will definitely eliminate a lot of toxic players for the beginner levels, which I feel is the most important aspect. If beginners are having a good time, there is a good chance of getting fresh blood into the dungeon community. As for advanced, that is where most of the toxic players will be imo. In league most bronze v think they are gold and that the reason they stay in bronze v is because of their teammates lol(bad skilled players thinking they are good and blaming others). and in League its called Elo Hell because of how toxic those people are.

All fair points. I’ll add self-classifying filters to the proposal and see where it goes. What are we thinking in terms of skill-based filters:

• Beginner
• Intermediate
• Advanced

Do we think Intermediate makes sense? Just the bounding two or do we like the middle rank?

dont make the filter skill based, make intent based.

• time attack- users use optimized parties and specialized builds and aim for record times
• dungeon completion – lets get it done
• Learning learning or teaching the ropes

this way you group people with similar intents, rather than how they classify themselves.

tekfan.3179:

Ashen.2907:

Milkduds.7109:

Shocked to see people stand up for the stale meta of this game. Dungeons in this game could be SO much more.

Forget the trinity. Just make more playstyles viable. Wanna hybrid support/DPS? Go for it. Wanna hybrid tank/heal? Go for it. Wanna hybrid range/melee DPS? Go for it.

Forget trinity. Forget that garbage that WoW put into your mind. Go back to the classic RPG’s, where imagination was king, and the only limit was our own ideas.

We don’t need the trinity, but we also need a game that allows something besides “STRAIGHT DPS D00D” to be viable. Otherwise, the PvE will continue to suffer and be extremely bland.

All of the options you list are viable.

Yet, what do you see in the lfg-tools, especially for dungeons?
“Zerker only!” “Only Zerker!!!” “ZERK!!!”

because zerker really has little to do with roles, this is the mistake people keep making. In some other games, you attribute determines your role, not in this game.

zerker is basically like setting your game to hardcore speed mode.

You take more dmg, you deal more dmg.
wether you are a healer or tanky or support has more to do with your build than your stats.

now if you want to talk about gear sets not improving the abilities of any role other than dps, thats a viable conversation, but that has nothing to do with only having one role/playstyle.

Bohantopa.5729:

Sam Gem.1246:

You’re wrong. Again, it’s technically possible to never get a pre from the mystic forge, but highly unlikely after 1100 attempts.
My beef is: Why me? Why is my account condemned?

Highly unlikely? If the chance to get a pre is 0.2% it makes the change of not getting one 99.8%, if repeated 1100 times the chance of not getting any pre is 0.998^1100 ~= 0.111 or about 11% only a little less than throwing a coin 3 times and never getting head.

If the chance to get a pre is 0.1% (as said in another post) the chance of not getting a pre in 1100 tries is about 0.333 = 33.3 % about the change to get a 5 or 6 in one throw of a dice.

So yeah, it does not feel nice not getting something but your account is not “condemned”.

this is another thing people forget, within a small set of trials, random is extremely unpredictable.
this means while the odds may be high on paper, in reality, they probably will not show a pattern that is representitive of the actual probabilities.

just like flipping a coin 4 times, doesnt give many people a pattern that represents the actual odds
or rolling the dice six times, doesnt tell you very much

even though 1000 tries seems like a lot, with a chance of .001, you have done the equivalent of flipping a coin twice, or rolling a die six times, in terms of normalizing the results.

Aidan Savage.2078:

I’ve had no issues with the current system, despite having leveled (and currently leveling) several characters after the change. The first, my mesmer, I knew exactly what I wanted to do, and exactly what traits she’d need. Unfortunately, since she basically went from 1-80 in LA, none of her traits were unlocked, but it wasnt much to simply buy the traits she needed and couldnt be unlocked easily. My latest one, a thief, I only have a general idea what she’s going to be doing, so traits are the least of my concern, with the biggest concern being figuring out exactly what I want her to do, how to do it, the skills to use for it, and then FINALLY, the traits to improve all the above. Beyond that, I’ll see if there’s anything worth tweaking and then go get those traits too.

@Guhracie, I said it’s not entirely necessary to have ALL of a character’s given traits. There are some traits that, no matter how much experimenting you do, you simply wont ever use, let alone give a second glance. The mesmer’s mirror anguish or whatever it’s called, is in my opinion, such a niche trait, that I would rarely find a use for it, making it a useless trait, thus one I wouldnt bother buying. I’d have to take a look at them, but most traits shouldnt take that long to unlock, particularly the event ones.

lol your example is an example of an overpriveleged mesmer born with a silver spoon in her mouth (an analogy)

she was raised into wealth such that she never had to step outside and kill a single enemy to hit 80
she was raised into such wealth that she had gold to buy a whole host of traits without ever setting a foot in the outside world
She was given skillbooks so she rarely had to do a skill challenge in order to unlock all applicable skills
She was born knowing exactly all the skills and traits she would ever need.

sure, in your case, your mesmer had few problems, because your mesmer basically bought her way out of the system. It doesnt represent a normal play experience, or the way the game should be played to give entertainment. It represents how someone with a lot of resources can avoid dealing with the game design.

Useless traits are design flaws, they are not supposed to exist and some classes have few of these, but not theoretically anet will eventually alter them

Aidan Savage.2078:

Wolfheart.1879:

On the subject of skill points to buy traits – it depends on the cost. At the moment the skill points cost is the most prohibitive part of the cost to buy them – to unlock all traits for a character costs more skill points than there are skill challenges on the map. Add that to the cost of unlocking skills, it can be prohibitive at the moment.

Some do have tons of skill points not in use, some don’t, and with the current sp cost, they likely won’t have tons for long. It’s a question of balance there. At the moment, and for many it is just too high.

The question though, is whether it’s truly necessary to have ALL of a given class’s traits at the same time. Find the traits that you look like you’ll want for your build once you reach 80, and work on obtaining those. Find traits that may work better? Go unlock them. You arent required to buy any of the traits. If you have the gold and skill points, sure you can, but it’s not a requirement to buy them.

Additionally, skill points are hardly the difficult thing to come across as you depict. Events such as silverwastes, Teq, and the “krait lab” event near teq, have enough champion bags as loot, that you could potentially walk away with dozens of skill point scrolls in an afternoon.

yes, you should have a fairly large amount of traits, playing the game as a newb, by the time you hit 80. Traits are one of the primary factors in most builds. Max level is supposed to mean you are off the training wheels.

see what you are saying makes no sense here, because how are you supposed to know what you like, without trying them?

How about the fact that you cant actually obtain most traits as they are unlocked, even if you were planning ahead.
They wont even show you where the traits are in your trait tab until you reach a certain level, which means the game is telling you not to plan ahead. They give you a blurb about what you need to do to get an item, which a newb would have no idea what it even means.

The truth is the system is not only bad, its a horrible execution bad

Xdmatt.3958:

Moving towards trinity would be a drastic departure from the established norm, but it could be what ANET will try next to revitalize the game and reignite the interest/attract new players. They need SOMETHING to boost the revenue numbers (which as of last publication were a bit less than stellar).

At the same time there’s been quite a bit of clamoring on the forums to kill the zerker meta, which could very well result, when HoT drops, in some massive debuff to zerker gear (-HP, -Stability, maybe -Incoming healing??) which in turn would force a re-gear and a departure of a substantial portion of the player base not willing to put up with the new meta.

Which oddly enough can be overall net healthy, if the game sheds the veteran players (who would be the most affected). GW2 will be losing an entrenched segment that’s “been there, done that”, got good at making gold, got their ascendeds and legendaries, and now chew through the same content over and over again, getting jaded and spreading negativity (happens in every MMO, veterans turn bitter sooner or later). These players also have mounds of gold and can buy gems with it, so they aren’t paying real dollars to ANET, and are just taking up server resources.

In their place there would be an influx of noobs who will, besides buying the game and the expansion, will also want to buy gems because OOOH SHINY and who won’t have mounds of gold to convert into gems and buy cash content with virtual money. At the end, the game makes money AND sheds an unproductive playerbase segment, so a win-win for ANET and a sound business strategy, heartless as it may seem.

Of course this is just me spitballin’ here, it might not be what is in the cards at all, but I think it’s one of the possible things that may come along with HoT.

this is an incorrect assumption.
you assumed entrenched players arent spending, this is incorrect,
you assume anet doesnt profit off selling gold, they do.
You assume you can get an influx of newbs by changing things, that is incorrect

let me put it simply, its always a bad idea to throw away existing customers for new possible customers. Its always a better idea to expand your audience rather than change it

Sam Gem.1246:

It’s like I said. It’s possible to never get a pre, but at 0.0018 chance from other people’s experience, the odds were in my favour with 1100 attempts.
90% chance is nothing to sneeze at…

90% chance means 10% of people are outside that statistic 10% means a lot of people fail. I agree it sucks that its a gamble, but you expect too much out of a gamble.
Not saying you shouldnt be upset, but you shouldnt be upset that you gambled and lost, you should be upset that it is a gamble to bein with, if something is 90% chance, 10% of people will get screwed.

oh yeah and btw, your chances were 90% potentially, before you started, now, they are actually .1%-.2%