Guild Wars 2

Stooperdale.3560:

You’re coming at from the perspective that toughness and vitality don’t do what they are supposed to do. However they do work. Players in PvP do use them. The problem is that you don’t need that sort of work in PvE because players use well tested tactics and can run the dungeons in any gear whatsoever. Note that – any gear whatsoever. They therefore use the highest dps gear. Making other defensive gear even more defensive isn’t going to change that.

Reducing existing defenses to make dungeons harder for speed runners is actually just going to hurt the newcomers who already find dungeons tough, very tough. Newcomers can use all sorts of builds and tactics to get through dungeons already. It’s just not optimal.

Giving defensive stats an extra bonus to defense or offense is just going to break PvP where plenty of builds can work already.

most of yall are missing the point.
the point is to have stats effective active abilities.
So that someone who is defensive statted gets an active benefit for using his defensive skills.
Then people will make real choices based on gameplay/playstyles. Thing is, right now, berserkers get the same benefit from defensive/control/support skills.

Its not even really about speed running, its about creating some more variation in playstyle. check gw1, its not really about anti beserker, its about interesting playstyles/choices

Chris Whiteside.6102:

NoTrigger.8396:

Naetell.3815:

In all the content we have in GW2 today, one mistake does not even down a DPS player. A big mistake might, a massive mistake does, but I don’t like defending the oneshot mechanics some bosses have either.

first of all thats a content problem. the pve content we have is not really challenging and difficult to beat, except when you are soloing stuff.

now let me give you one example.
imagine in a 15 man raid a boss has a really tight enrage timer and 15 players are required to use dps gear and optimal rotations to kill the boss before the enrage timer hits.
now in this fight there is healing required, more than just your personal healing skill.
how will players deal with this? they will heal each other with water fields, defensive boons.
so EVERYONE in the raid will be required to provide as much support as possible, teamwork and on top of that dps.
or in other words, everyone has to play well and pull their weight.
and all of that happens while players are dodging dangerous hits and abilities.

now lets say 12 people are required to use optimal rotations and dps gear and you have 3 dedicated healer. will this make the encounter more challenging and fun?
it will actually reduce teamwork, coordination and the requirement that players try to play as good as possible, because focusing on only one thing is much easier to do, and doesnt need as much teamwork.

actually situation 1) is exactly why i love the gw2 combat system.

people always say “just dps, just dps, just dps”. what they dont understand, its exactly the other way around.
its support, support, support with the nice bonus that you can deal alot of dps on top of that at the same time.

how much dps you can deal on top of providing tons of support depends ONLY on how good the player is at the game. a player who doesnt react properly, is inexperienced, and doesnt know when and what to dodge needs defensive gear to survive.
a great player doesnt need defensive gear, because he is learning how to react to X situation faster, how to react proberly etc………

this is actually just amazing. because its entirely based on player skill.

i dont know if you understand what im trying to explain here. but i can recommend every player who thinks “only dps dps dps, no support, no cc” to learn to solo arah paths in berserker gear. once you have done that and reached a certain skill level in gw2, you will look at the game and the combat system from a very different perspective that not alot of players seem to understand even after 2 years of playing the game.

I agree 100%. I now don’t understand why folks are arguing.

Cris

basically its pretty hard to understand myself. But I think though many people have the same understanding the question is.

Should raids be designed in a way that specifically makes certain stat builds more necessary.
So they are discussing whether raids should be built with these type of mechanics, like guaranteed damage (so tank gear/heal gear is more needed) or mandatory reflect checks, etc.

I personally am against these type of things, I do thing you may want to design fights where there is a primary design where having more healing/vitality could be useful, but you shouldnt design it in a way that is mechanical.

For example, you may have a room with no way out, and you have to survive a certain amount of time. Tanky classes might have an advantage here, but dodging, working together, etc still work.

You may design a boss that has a player-like attack speed at certain times, so confuse, protection, immobilize etc might be useful, but dont do something where its mechanical, like you can only do dmg while he is confused.

Basically the debate is between forced specific mechanics/roles and designs where players figure out how to make it work with what they have/playstyles.

thats how i see the debate anyhow.

Naetell.3815:

NoTrigger.8396:

Naetell.3815:

Again, there’s no inherent risk attached to DPS gear. If there is, I’d like you to show that.

if you do a mistake you are dead. thats the high risk of dps gear. you have to play well, you have to know the encounter, and you have to use the right skills at the right time. in tanky gear i can ignore all of that.

That’s simply not true. You have an literal invulnerability button and a huge health pool while downed that gives your fellow players plenty of time to pick you back up, if you haven’t gained a second wind from channeling 4 or killing a mob yet, that invalidates any sense of 1 mistake = dead.
In all the content we have in GW2 today, one mistake does not even down a DPS player. A big mistake might, a massive mistake does, but I don’t like defending the oneshot mechanics some bosses have either.
I’ve played in tanky gear too, and it’s not exactly what you’d call fun. It takes everything out of the game, and if you combine it with dodging you might as well be invulnerable the entire time. With the added problem it takes you hours to do anything and you don’t get rewards as easily in the open world because it’s all calculated on DPS done.

On none of my full glass characters have I ever had that feeling of imminent danger in this game.
And there’s no raiding mechanic that can change that.

So, I really do wonder where this notion comes from, that there’s an actual split between skilled and not-skilled players based on the gear the wear.

its not that because you wear berserk, you are automatically a better player. Its that the better you are, the less need you have for the defense.

You say with your tank gear, the encounter is too easy, and you cannot die. What is the advantage of tank gear?
Tank gear in this game exists primarily to set your handicap in battle. the more tank gear you have the more mistakes you can make. I am not saying every player in tank gear does, but thats the main advantage of it.

promotion/marketing wise, doesnt seem that great, however, maybe its just not going to be that big of a deal, so no reason to promote it much

Devata.6589:

phys.7689:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I don’t really see this issue all that often in the game. Maybe it’s just that I don’t typically play during peak hours?

But I’ve done dungeons, I’ve done world bosses, etc, and the vast majority of the time what the OP is discussing isn’t an issue. Or sure, there are always a few lewd comments, but nothing like whats being discussed here. All one can really do is report it, that’s what the report feature is for. Beyond that, there’s a filter and an ignore function. Those are the options.

As for the N-word specifically, it just makes me roll my eyes. That is such a double standard. Its perfectly ok for a black man to say it, but its racist when a white man uses it. Cmon now. It’s either racist or its not, it cannot be both. Just further shows how terrible our society really is.

1)Its all fine for someone to say, insert your culture can hold their liquor, its not ok and fine for other people to say, hey that culture is a bunch stinking alcholics. If one ever came around my daughter i would just leave trail of liquor bottles leading to a spike pit.
2) just because 1% of the total population may or may not be ok being labeled a certain way, does not mean the population as a whole is ok with it. For example, your grandmother may many times say, women need to stay home and take care of their kids, and keep a clean house, and let the men earn money. That doesnt mean its ok for men to go around saying every woman should do that, and for them to tell people hey, i can say that, because lanfear Shadowflames mother always told me that, and shes a woman.

No it’s oke for them to say that because of free speech. But I don’t see how this is on topic.

I repeat it again for the last time. Because you disagree or find something offensive does not make it forbidden. So you can report, you can ignore and you should move on.

free speech is not unlimited. you dont get to do and say whatever you want

harassment (either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, an attempt to force someone to quit a job or grant sexual favors, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill, or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone fearful or anxious. Such activities may be the basis for a lawsuit if due to discrimination based on race or sex, a violation on the statutory limitations on collection agencies, involve revenge by an ex-spouse, or be shown to be a form of blackmail (“I’ll stop bothering you, if you’ll go to bed with me”). The victim may file a petition for a “stay away” (restraining) order, intended to prevent contact by the offensive party. A systematic pattern of harassment by an employee against another worker may subject the employer to a lawsuit for failure to protect the worker.

Devata.6589:

phys.7689:

Devata.6589:

emikochan.8504:

Devata/Lanfear stop being ignorant. It’s not a double standard.

Saying that is not a double standard (you referring to lanfear) now that’s what I consider racism. Because you agree that purely based on color one person is allowed to do / say something and another is not. That’s pretty mutch the definition of racism,

Anyway, this is going way to much off topic.

OP did say multiple things but most of the post was about people saying things he did not like (where rude according to him). Not saying what that was. So it’s everybody’s guess what those things where. But like I said before, what is offensive for one person might not be offensive for the other and denying it might also be offensive for yet another person.

Maybe OP is talking about how some people talk about the asura’s. Some might find that offensive other might find that funny. I would not be for not allowing that sort of things. But then the OP can report and block.

The general advice being given here.

the op identified at least one of the derogatory terms that people were saying.

True and as seen in this thread, some consider that offensive, other don’t. Exactly my point why you can’t focus to much on those things and should then (if you consider it offensive) ignore it and move on.

So what you are saying is that people shouldnt get mad if random people come by and insult them to their faces, because sticks and stones and all that. And everyone should judge there personal level of offense to anything anyone says, by every other person’s definition of what is cool.

So if some one calls your wife dirty wh* sl* every day she goes to the store, thats cool, because they have some people somewhere who arent offended by that type of thing. she should just learn to ignore them.

and im not saying censorship is cool, im saying its a totally different type of issue. Derogatory terms are people directly insulting you and trying to cause a negative reaction in you, or control/alter your behavior for their own amusment/biases. While its all good to say people should just grin and bear it, why should they have to?

Devata.6589:

emikochan.8504:

Devata/Lanfear stop being ignorant. It’s not a double standard.

Saying that is not a double standard (you referring to lanfear) now that’s what I consider racism. Because you agree that purely based on color one person is allowed to do / say something and another is not. That’s pretty mutch the definition of racism,

Anyway, this is going way to much off topic.

OP did say multiple things but most of the post was about people saying things he did not like (where rude according to him). Not saying what that was. So it’s everybody’s guess what those things where. But like I said before, what is offensive for one person might not be offensive for the other and denying it might also be offensive for yet another person.

Maybe OP is talking about how some people talk about the asura’s. Some might find that offensive other might find that funny. I would not be for not allowing that sort of things. But then the OP can report and block.

The general advice being given here.

the op identified at least one of the derogatory terms that people were saying.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I don’t really see this issue all that often in the game. Maybe it’s just that I don’t typically play during peak hours?

But I’ve done dungeons, I’ve done world bosses, etc, and the vast majority of the time what the OP is discussing isn’t an issue. Or sure, there are always a few lewd comments, but nothing like whats being discussed here. All one can really do is report it, that’s what the report feature is for. Beyond that, there’s a filter and an ignore function. Those are the options.

As for the N-word specifically, it just makes me roll my eyes. That is such a double standard. Its perfectly ok for a black man to say it, but its racist when a white man uses it. Cmon now. It’s either racist or its not, it cannot be both. Just further shows how terrible our society really is.

1)Its all fine for someone to say, insert your culture can hold their liquor, its not ok and fine for other people to say, hey that culture is a bunch stinking alcholics. If one ever came around my daughter i would just leave trail of liquor bottles leading to a spike pit.
2) just because 1% of the total population may or may not be ok being labeled a certain way, does not mean the population as a whole is ok with it. For example, your grandmother may many times say, women need to stay home and take care of their kids, and keep a clean house, and let the men earn money. That doesnt mean its ok for men to go around saying every woman should do that, and for them to tell people hey, i can say that, because lanfear Shadowflames mother always told me that, and shes a woman.

Devata.6589:

phys.7689:

To the op, you reported it, thats all you can really do.

But I find it interesting peoples responses in this thread highlight that a lot of people have no real problem with this behavior.

perhaps the op is more right than one would think.

What behavior exactly. The OP does not say exactly what has been said, only that he finds it offensive.

I find moderators closing perfectly good threads offensive. Doesn’t mean they can’t do it. All I can then do it report them, getting the message it will be looked at by a moderator (likely himself) so that makes it even more offensive. But in the end there is not much more you can do then report and ingame block.

the op basically makes it clear, for people who are familiar with such things, he probably doesnt want to say exactly what it is, because that is giving it new life.
The crux of the OP is that the same people are saying the same things day after day, and seem to be immune to bans.

If you need to get an idea, just take any culture/nation and make sweeping derogatory generalizations about said culture/people. People will in generally find this highly offensive, because it isnt based on anything real about you. Imagine you start to play a game, and the first thing you hear is, kitten stupid dirty insert your culture

This is in no way analagous to people closing threads, that is censoring people. This is more analgous, to say random people in the street mocking and ridiculing you and your family, everyday on your way to work. Its design and purpose is to be offensive.

Oh yeah, to the op, interestingly enough, you keeping track of these players by friending them increases the chances that the megaserver will place you in the same maps as them, from what they said about the megaserver. That may be why it seems more of a common occurence around you.

To the op, you reported it, thats all you can really do.

But I find it interesting peoples responses in this thread highlight that a lot of people have no real problem with this behavior.

perhaps the op is more right than one would think.

Dimglow.5489:

Crystal Reid.2481:

Conski Deshan.2057:

Proposal Overview
Potential Raid Mechanics: Part 6 Profession specific interactions

Goal of Proposal
To make use of the unique abilities of specific professions.

Proposal Functionality
I see two levels of functionality:

Soft Profession requirements and Hard profession requirements, soft, its ideal to have this class but at least one other class can carry out the same task. Hard: only one class can carry out this task and is based on the classes theme.

Soft Profession mechanics
-Stealth, Example: You must make it from one end of a corridor to another while stealthed the whole way or an instakill occurs. Can’t be bypassed by mistform or other invuln mechanics.
Another possibility is a stealth portion of a raid where you want to make it through an area unseen with patrols and the like.

-Elements and fields: Water/heal fields to douse flames or activate effects, Fire fields to ignite traps or activate explosives, Holy fields for god statue activations etc.

-Reflection: To shield from an explosive blastwave or redirect a magical blast to blow open a door etc.

Hard profession mechanics
Necromancer: Raise a corpse to get information/password/open a locked room from inside etc.

Guardian: Use holy magic to activate a god statue/complete a ritual/ seal a passage preventing reinforcements.

Ranger: Can make use of a fixed position sniper rifle to hit a switch/take out a target of opportunity at some point to assist in progressing.

Engineerer: Can activate disabled golems/rig a door to blow etc.

Elementalist: Can make use of magical reagents, Activate elemental doors, converse with elementals etc.

Mesmer: Can jedi mind trick some goon into opening a door / reveal a disguised illusion, do the kasmeer portal trick.

Thief: Can Identify a trap, bribe for information , locate a weakness.

Warrior: Kinda at a loss for this one since a warriors kinda meant to be the generic everyman. can use brute strength to open something/ force their way through something at some point?

Associated Risks
-Hard class requirements can result in the same lf healer issue in other games.

There’s some very cool stuff in here, including a few I may or may not have prototyped out in my spare time. This specifically touches on Chris’ note about mechanics.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Can we get back to talking about the two main topics we are focusing on please.

Specifically:

1: Progression
2: Foundational raiding mechanics based on the core combat and movement of GW2.

Chris

How do others feel about this? Are these types of mechanics are the way to go to circumvent the lack of Trinity in the game? It’s not about tanks/healers, it’s about condi/reflect teams (similar to the Jungle Wurm).

I am very late to this but why can’t we have tanks or healers? Just make it optional or active. Example a boss who is encouraged by your cowardly dodging who gains health, or who swings for the fences and if you take a full combo via tanking each hit raw he is temporarily exhausted and vulnerable. Like an overconfident Norn who thought he could knock out anyone and has a confidence crisis when he fails but gets more confident if you run.

Or add npc allies with heavy degen, at 0 health they deactivate. If healed they turn on and fight offering positive effects. Or make a fight where players can hold a dangerous Asuran laser that hurts a lot to hold and charge. The longer you hold it the more dps out and in. The more hps on the longer you can hold it.

Please don’t write off tanks and healers. There is so much that can be done to make them active roles. And all those solutions can be optional, you don’t even have to force them.

problem is you generally cant make tanks and healing roles, without forcing the whole situation.
I like your boss getting exhausted, or say take more damage if you take his big hits, however,
how do you have a tank without a provoke type skill?
What happens once you have a predictable guaranteed target? The whole system starts to require tanks.

Healers, they are only useful if you force people to take damage. While the healer has fun, you have to create situations where people either cant avoid damage, or its optimal for them to take damage, which is the opposite of good play 9/10 times.

Anyhow, some of your mechanics suggested might be interesting in small doses, but it doesnt fit in well with the general combat, and i would do it only in small doses, and never as the absolute best option

As an aside, i really despised the everywhere poison in tower of nightmares.

raid progression.
As in what unlocks raids.
lets say each raid has possible finishing bosses.
beating each boss unlocks a different path, which leads to another raid.

so raid progression, between raids would essentially be like a map, beating different things takes you in different directions.

However, i would make it such that most raids are on the same difficulty/reward tier. Raid progress is horizontal in this case not quite vertical.

Eventually you could make some raids that are considered to be a teir higher in difficulty, but that would be much later.

I would have multiple starting point raids, (much like we have different starting zones)

maddoctor.2738:

aerial.7021:

Therefore we should have content customization by the player base, by increasing this diversity you satisfy desire for uniqueness and drops can drop for everyone, no need for RNG, it seemed completely redundant and silly in GW1 and it still does today if you kill something holding a desirable skin you should be able to walk off with it when you kill it.

What did it break in the battle every-time we fought?
Did I suddenly develop amnesia and forget to pick it up?

In other MMORPGs I’ve played chances of good loot dropping are nearly 100%, every boss drops at least one item that is worthy, but it then needs to be split to the party members. In the Guild Wars games it’s only random for each player. In other MMORPGs this system you describe, all mobs dropping what they carry, is possible and easy to implement and in some of them it does indeed work.

The problem is, imagine a group of 5 killing that mob, should it drop 5 Staffs that is holding, one for each one? Or imagine a big blob of 30 players killing it, should it drop 30 identical Staffs?

The main problem with RNG in this game, and to some extent in GW1 as well, is the lack of loot distribution. Both games suffer because of this, in other MMORPGs the loot drops for the entire party and it’s up to the group to distribute it among them, in GW1/GW2 every player rolls individually on the loot table for their own specific loot, therefore to keep content from becoming stale (when everyone gets everything they can get from it) the RNG in both games has a very very low chance.

In GW1 they somewhat reduced the effect of loot distribution by allowing all items to be traded between players, that way those who were lucky and got blessed by the RNG got their items, but the unlucky ones got the items by spending gold. In GW2 they take the bad features of both types, bound gear AND based only on RNG, while using only one of the benefits: loot for everyone.

Give bosses a 100% chance of loot drops, but the bosses should drop ONE of those items, and up to the players to distribute it. Non-pug groups will benefit the most from this, imagine you are in a group (now we are even discussing raids in GW2) of 25 players and kill the boss, the boss has a 100% chance to drop what you want. Even if all 25 players want that item, for example a good looking mini, you WILL get it someday. With GW2 RNG you are not guaranteed to get what you want even after a thousand attempts. Some people suggest tokens, I suggest a better distribution, by making those items Account Bound on Acquire, those who already have it will have no use getting it again, so eventually, EVERYONE in the game will have the item in question (everyone that can BEAT the content)

This isnt really the issue, Anet really just decided to make loot extremely low rate, with very little control over what you get. Remember when they said people would get fractal boxes a year ago? Then they said it was never meant to be in this update.

yeah the reason loot sucks, is because anet wants loot to suck, it isnt cause people cant lot, they just dont want you to get anything without insane grinding. Look at almost every item of value in the game. you can multiply the chances by 5 and it would still suck horribly.

The whole having 300 people killing one monster and getting loot is a red herring. Assuming your game is populated, and people can go after what they want. In other games you would have those same 300 people hunting 60 different things in that same time frame.

BilboBaggins.5620:

phys.7689:

sorudo.9054:

phys.7689:

BilboBaggins.5620:

And yet STO and PWI already do it with no apparent damage to the exchange rate.

i dont believe they operate an currency exchange in those games, i think it is just selling of gold.

anyhow i would need the details of their systems to truely understand them, i have only found limited information

it’s exactly the same, they even use bundle deals to give more credit for your buck.

oh and don’t look at STO, they have even more expensive stuff then GW2 (try to buy a max level ship, it’s gonna cost you 25 bucks) and keep in mind, STO is a freemium game so you have a F2P and a P2P part.
if you want a better comparison, look at LOTRO and RIFT.

i dont mean the fact that they sell it, i mean can players trade it for it the other way. Ie spend gold in game to get the currency.

Yes, zen for dilithium / dilithium for zen (zen=gems, dilithium=gold). Although there are energy credits and latinum in the game as well, along with several more types of “coin” but they’re more like laurels and badges.

did a little research, looks like energy credits are primary currency. Dilithium is mostly and endgame currency with a max output based on daily missions. It has specific limits on how much each player can earn within a time period (without buying zen) Its also capped on a per day basis in terms of refining dilithium.
and finally they also cap the max trade amount to 500 dilithium to 1

sooo its a more complex system, but dilithium is a controlled currency, the amount you can trade per day is controlled, another factor is dilithium is not tradeable between players so they may not have to worry as much about the effects on the economy.

still its a rather convulted system, but doesnt seem like they can blow up the player economy with dilithium/zen because the player market is based on a different currency, so they dont have to worry as much about it.

Ensign.2189:

Zaxares.5419:

While it IS true that ANet does have the power to drastically change the trading landscape by altering the frequency of drops, it’s still up to the players to determine how much a particular item is worth.

Imagine for the moment that ANet had complete and perfect information about how every single one of their players would respond to any potential market change – how their playing time and aggregate spending would change from differences in wealth, how they would substitute goods as rates changed, absolutely everything.

Imagine that, making use of this information, ANet went and changed their drop rates, their crafting and forge recipes, to manipulate their players exactly how they wanted and to put equilibrium prices precisely where they intend them all to be.

In this wholly fanciful situation, the market structure would still not be a monopoly – because all of this has nothing at all to do with monopoly. When you say monopoly you’re not just referring to a specific economic concept, you’re invoking a whole lot of implications, positive and negative, that simply are not true in GW2.

As long as prices are ultimately determined by markets featuring several buyers and sellers interacting freely, discovering competitive prices in the process, the market structure will be a free market – regardless of what ANet does to drop rates or crafting recipes.

i dont think anet is monopoly, but we definately dont have a free market.

Wanze.8410:

Gewd.8125:

Wanze.8410:

Gewd.8125:

The price players set is almost entirely influenced by Arena.net.

Just because Arena.net doesn’t sell ectos for gold doesn’t mean they are being given away for free.

They are being sold for playing time, aka labor at a rate which they can control on a whim.

The players still decide which amount of payment for their labour they seem fit, so they ultimatively set the price.

Anet could decide to make ectos not drop anymore from salvages, making them unattainable in the future, this would presumably make their value go up.
But at the same time, the player base could decide that they dont want ectos anymore, making ectos available on the tp at 1c over vendor value.

Players set the price.

You are missing the point. If Anet wanted to, they could make it so ectos could only be sold in the gemstore and there would be nothing you could do about it.

There’s a difference between having a monopoly, and exploiting as much as possible.

Anet does not take full control of the market but manipulating the drop rate to cause prices to inflate or deflate by 200% with a few keystrokes is still a considerable use of the monopoly.

Players can have some control over the price, but it pales in comparison to anet’s ability to set the drop rate.

The minimum cost of labor is governed by farming DR (controlled by Anet), how fun the game is (mostly controlled by Anet), electricity and computer operation costs (hardly controllable by the player), value of ecto relative to gold (largely controlled by Anet).

I am not missing the point, you are just trying to argue something different, while i just state that prices are entirely set by players, a statement you still have to prove false.

If Ectos were only available in the gem store, players would still determine their price in gold through the gold/gem exchange.

yes players can choose whatever price they want.
No players as a whole will not do so.
Its like me trapping someone in a house for 1 week, and only supplying them with bananas.
Sure they could eat the dandelions out in the front garden or tree bark, but they wont.

While it is literally true that people set the price, it is not actually true. By the same token you could say people decide the prices in monoplies, because they could simply refuse to buy.
Literally true, but for all intents and purposes, false.

runeblade.7514:

phys.7689:

runeblade.7514:

phys.7689:

runeblade.7514:

RyuDragnier.9476:

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again, the following is my suggested change.

Add an account wide unlock for the traits upon completing the tasks required to unlock them (whether buying them or doing the open world portion). Not a class wide unlock, I mean across all characters. For example, say a player unlocks all the traits on their Guardian. They make a Necromancer next. When they unlock the adept traits at level 36, they will have all of them already unlocked and ready for use.

I suggest this because as of right now, the trait system discourages experimentation with traits because you have to keep unlocking them, even on new characters, and makes the game significantly less fun due to this. Since I recall it being said that the trait changes originally came into place to encourage trait experimentation (which it failed to do), a simple account-bound unlock would be good enough to make that statement true.

I find myself experimenting more with the trait system than without it.

you are a rare case.
The only pro experimentation part of the revamp was taking away trait reset npc, which has no real connection to the things most people dislike about it. IE it could be introduced without any of the other changes.

Most people will experiment less with less options.

• If i got 3 chemicals, the amount of experimentation i can do is less
• If new chemicals have a high cost, and use resources i currently need, i will experiment less
• If obtaining new chemicals requires me to do something i hate i will experiment less

They basically have many different parts of this change that reduce the likely hood for experimentation in different ways.

Statistics? It sounds like you are pulling this out of a toilet.

With less choice, I can easily experiment which of the two traits I have without feeling overwhelmed. I don’t need to read 30 text to see what it does. Then gradually, I get more traits which I can experiment on and understand them better. Before, I just look at the forum guides because I don’t want to bother with reading so many text.

There is a difference of teaching Algebra, Geometry, calculus all at once vs. teaching algebra, geometry, calculus in different years.

its not statistics at play. Its logic.

No, it requires statistic not logic. Here:

you are a rare case.

Show me a Statistic. How would you know that I am a rare case? If I am a rare case, then you have a survey out there saying I am a rare case.

Otherwise, I can say that you guys are a rare case because logic.

how much different combinations you can try is directly related to how many ingredients you have. If you have 3 different things limiting your ingredients your ability to experiment is a lot less.

Too much utilities just make me want to go to the guides and have them figure it out for me.

Now you talk about getting overwelmed, but while i can believe you being overwelmed causes you not to experiment, i dont know why you would think its common, or that its better for everyone else to go at your specific pace.

You don’t have to go at my specific pace, you can always buy traits from the vendor for a cheap cost.

If you want to test it all at the same time, but too poor to do so, then you can go to the Heart of the mist.

you do realize, you have the option to do it one at a time in the other system right? you realize thats what most people who didnt want to read all of them at once do. They pick one, try it out, try a new one when they get bored of the old one.

I find it easier to get a guide and have them choose for me.

experimenting with 1 or 2 traits, is less than expermenting with 30 traits.

ok, you like it, i cant argue that, i will just say the system is poorly designed and too rigid to work for a variety of playstyles.

even for what it is, it is poorly designed in many ways.

guardian.6489:

That’s a valid fear but most skills are designed so you can place a reflect at a proper time and then focus on other stuff in the meantime. In my example, once you place your reflect to block projectiles you can move back to killing trash/the boss until it’s your turn to reflect again.

Some vertern reflectors at Wurm will actually focus on killing Vetern wurms while their reflects are on cooldown to give themselves something to do before they need to reflect again, and they of course participate in burn phases like everyone else. Newbie/Solo/Mid-level reflectors sometimes however ignore vertern wurms.

Also currently anywhere in this game where you do not need to emphasis a certain stats or have a certain level of survivability, Zerker gear is the meta set (or Assassins for some classes) so I would argue that if we don’t have different stat sets to diversify meta Raid sets (and I imagine for non-optimized Raids zerker would be valid), Beserker’s armor would rain supreme once again for everyone.

and thats the thing, reflect has nothing to do with gear/playstyle. You just shoehorn it in.
This is why condi isnt as bad, however, i dont think enemies should require condi or take 2 hours.

Im not saying these things should be useless, but there is a difference between an enemy being weak to conditions, and an enemy being virtually impervious to physical damage.

Getting back to the overall point, i would advise level designers to keep away from very specific gimmicks, although its fine to have these gimmicks be useful ways of dealing with a problem.

For example, dont make a room you have to stealth by.
but do make a room that its a lot easier to avoid enemies if done properly.
methods for getting past it would include
stealth/swiftness to key areas
plain old timing/line of sight
rip through them all and fight the waves
side objectives that distract them. (single player causes a avalanche then zip lines to the exit)
careful pulling of certain teams.

basically start with high level goals, then give players methods for using their skillsets to succeed at that goal.
some examples:

• Get by this room with minimal agro.
• Counter key skills, and punish the enemy for mistakes, predicting/reacting right
• Attrition war.
• must survive waves

you dont want things like, only do dmg while you have protect up! Thats too specific.

Nia.3964:

Theftwind.8976:

Two points I gathered from the reddit..

" Player was moved from the map and placed in a different instance of the map
Player attempted multiple times to zone back into this specific version of the map, "

Those two points, if true, tell me that the player was intent on grieving one group of people. His intent was not to farm as he could have done that in the instance he was moved to, his intent was not to progress a quest or story as again he could have finished that in the second instance. In that he made many attempts to get back to a specific instance where he could grief a specific group of people then he deserves what he got.

Thanks for emphasizing. Any normal player who knows the details should judge and think this way.

Also, somehow, this makes me sad. Sad that US gets such a great anti-bad-player-behaviour support – and EU is kept alone.For instance, there is a very bad spammer on the DR-Map(most likely the one with a lot of Drakkar Lake players) I always end up. Person keeps chatting about genoicde to people who use smilies, all sorts of racist propaganda and stuff and threats on players life. If anyone from ArenaNet US reads this. Please help! EU Support does nothing…this is happening for over 2 years now! ;(

its pretty rare to see a GM take action on any server. I have never seen it myself. Then again i am rarely involved in such conflicts.

runeblade.7514:

phys.7689:

runeblade.7514:

RyuDragnier.9476:

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again, the following is my suggested change.

Add an account wide unlock for the traits upon completing the tasks required to unlock them (whether buying them or doing the open world portion). Not a class wide unlock, I mean across all characters. For example, say a player unlocks all the traits on their Guardian. They make a Necromancer next. When they unlock the adept traits at level 36, they will have all of them already unlocked and ready for use.

I suggest this because as of right now, the trait system discourages experimentation with traits because you have to keep unlocking them, even on new characters, and makes the game significantly less fun due to this. Since I recall it being said that the trait changes originally came into place to encourage trait experimentation (which it failed to do), a simple account-bound unlock would be good enough to make that statement true.

I find myself experimenting more with the trait system than without it.

you are a rare case.
The only pro experimentation part of the revamp was taking away trait reset npc, which has no real connection to the things most people dislike about it. IE it could be introduced without any of the other changes.

Most people will experiment less with less options.

• If i got 3 chemicals, the amount of experimentation i can do is less
• If new chemicals have a high cost, and use resources i currently need, i will experiment less
• If obtaining new chemicals requires me to do something i hate i will experiment less

They basically have many different parts of this change that reduce the likely hood for experimentation in different ways.

Statistics? It sounds like you are pulling this out of a toilet.

With less choice, I can easily experiment which of the two traits I have without feeling overwhelmed. I don’t need to read 30 text to see what it does. Then gradually, I get more traits which I can experiment on and understand them better. Before, I just look at the forum guides because I don’t want to bother with reading so many text.

There is a difference of teaching Algebra, Geometry, calculus all at once vs. teaching algebra, geometry, calculus in different years.

its not statistics at play. Its logic.
how much different combinations you can try is directly related to how many ingredients you have. If you have 3 different things limiting your ingredients your ability to experiment is a lot less.

Now you talk about getting overwelmed, but while i can believe you being overwelmed causes you not to experiment, i dont know why you would think its common, or that its better for everyone else to go at your specific pace.

you do realize, you have the option to do it one at a time in the other system right? you realize thats what most people who didnt want to read all of them at once do. They pick one, try it out, try a new one when they get bored of the old one.

guardian.6489:

phys.7689:

no, these type of mechanics are way too specific, you will be waiting around for mesmer just like you used to be for a healer. In wurm its all good because you will have many people, some will fill the gaps, but out of 10-15 people?

its all good that reflection might be useful, but that shouldnt be the only way to handle a problem ( or so much better that all other methods suck)

i feel like most of the condi focused enemies are too far in the condi department. Its ok to give an enemy signifigant defences, but making it so physical attacks do like 10 dmg is kind of ehhhhh. Its not as bad as needing reflect though. Every class has some access to conditions, and conditions tends to be playstyle whereas reflect is more of a gimmick.

I’m going to point out something about reflection and Condi damage in Triple Trouble which is why I keep coming back to them.

The Following professions can fill the reflect role in Triple trouble: Guardian, Elementalist, Mesmer, Thief, Engineer, and Ranger.

There are more classes with access to reflects then you think. Only Nercomancers and Warriors can’t actually do anything to reflect eggs. Of those 6, 5 could contribute to reflecting projectiles coming from a single source.

Let’s say there’s an invincible projectile spammer flame portal (summoned by the molten alliance or something) that you need to block projectiles from and you only got thieves, engineers warriors and mesmers. A Mesmer can use feedback, followed by thief’s smoke screen, followed by an engineer’s Elixier U and maybe a Fortified turret’s rifle turret (you know the trait that creates reflect shields, while having a Guardian in that situation would be more ideal, it is not impossible with the professions you have. I personally doubt there will be very many situations where a 15 man Raid has only Warriors and nercomancers for some reason.

The Following professions can fill the condi role in Triple Trouble: Nercomancers, Engineers, Thieves, Mesmers, Rangers, Warriors, and Elementalists.

Only Guardians have no real Condi-build. Every other profession has some sort of condi-spec. I also want to point out that the king of reflect is the worst condi-team member and vice-versa which is why these 2 roles go well with each other (usually opposite professions go to each).

Im kind of opposed to these hyper focused roles that require specific skill/trait setups. especially when that playstyle is very limited.

While from a leader commander role, its cool, on a personal play level it is not.

Reflect should just be a tool within an overall build set/playstyle. It shouldnt become a playstyle within itself. I will tell you on a personal level those type of hyper specific roles tend to make encounters boring(on an individual level). However if the content requires it, people will do it.

• I remember a different game. For this end encounter, the job of the monk(martial class) was to sit in a corner, using a boost skill every 10 seconds, then join the main party, shoot a projectile every 3 minutes and leave the party and begin boosting again. And it was stupid from a player perspective. This was actually a player created solution to a enemy encounter, but imagine if the developers built that to be required? Its not cool at all on a personal play level.
  to be defined by one very small portion of your skillset/playstyle is not very satisfying.

focus more on broader roles, reflect is actually only supposed to be a supplement to a counter heavy, punishment style of play. It would be fine to create a gap for role that excels on a counter heavy/punishment style. For it just to be based around one aspect of that is too focused.

runeblade.7514:

RyuDragnier.9476:

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again, the following is my suggested change.

Add an account wide unlock for the traits upon completing the tasks required to unlock them (whether buying them or doing the open world portion). Not a class wide unlock, I mean across all characters. For example, say a player unlocks all the traits on their Guardian. They make a Necromancer next. When they unlock the adept traits at level 36, they will have all of them already unlocked and ready for use.

I suggest this because as of right now, the trait system discourages experimentation with traits because you have to keep unlocking them, even on new characters, and makes the game significantly less fun due to this. Since I recall it being said that the trait changes originally came into place to encourage trait experimentation (which it failed to do), a simple account-bound unlock would be good enough to make that statement true.

I find myself experimenting more with the trait system than without it.

you are a rare case.
The only pro experimentation part of the revamp was taking away trait reset npc, which has no real connection to the things most people dislike about it. IE it could be introduced without any of the other changes.

Most people will experiment less with less options.

• If i got 3 chemicals, the amount of experimentation i can do is less
• If new chemicals have a high cost, and use resources i currently need, i will experiment less
• If obtaining new chemicals requires me to do something i hate i will experiment less

They basically have many different parts of this change that reduce the likely hood for experimentation in different ways.

runeblade.7514:

Jana.6831:

I disagree as the trait system makes no sense: I may be able to get traits at level 18 but I’m not able to see them – so what’s the point?

So would you think it’ll be better if ANet buffed the levels so you can only get them at level 36? Either way, I don’t really care.

Upleveling makes no sense anymore as a lot of the traits are either only availlable at a rather high level – or people can’t see or use them anyway.

Upleveling is there so that low level players can play content. Downleveling is there so that high levels can be relevant to the low level zones. It has nothing to do with traits.

A lot of really important traits are locked behind a high level, I’ve mentioned condi removal on my mesmer, f.e. People are being forced to play the game in a certain way, my wvw characters won’t make pve dungeon pugs happy, so I have to either get a second gear for them or buy the traits or live with being criticised for my “builds”. People who don’t like wvw will have a really hard time to get the wvw related traits.

They can always buy important traits from the Vendor if they want it immediately. Then they can search for the rest of non-important traits if they want to.

There’s no real indicator as how to obtain the traits, just a vague direction, that collides with the NPE.
It might be okay if one is a pure PvE player (except the wvw traits) but a lot of people aren’t.
And hey, I know all of this, a lot of people don’t so they will be surprised when facing all these troubles.

I agree that there are no real indicator. There just needs to be one.

1) they are saying why are there traits you cannot even look at in the UI, but you can get them. Its likely you will have to return to these areas, when you could have got it the first time. The UI should always show you where all the traits are.

2) the point is, uplevels cannot compete due to a lack of traits. This was always a possibility, but the swing is now 20 levels different. Not only that, but its unlikely they even have good traits.

3)Buying important traits from a vendor, people forget that they didnt always have infinite skill points, that largely happens after level 80, or when specifically farming (like champ farm) Someone actually leveling doesnt have 10-20 extra skill points to throw around. you really would have to choose between traits, and skills, and then between traits and other traits. Most people just wont bother.

Crystal Reid.2481:

Conski Deshan.2057:

Proposal Overview
Potential Raid Mechanics: Part 6 Profession specific interactions

Goal of Proposal
To make use of the unique abilities of specific professions.

Proposal Functionality
I see two levels of functionality:

Soft Profession requirements and Hard profession requirements, soft, its ideal to have this class but at least one other class can carry out the same task. Hard: only one class can carry out this task and is based on the classes theme.

Soft Profession mechanics
-Stealth, Example: You must make it from one end of a corridor to another while stealthed the whole way or an instakill occurs. Can’t be bypassed by mistform or other invuln mechanics.
Another possibility is a stealth portion of a raid where you want to make it through an area unseen with patrols and the like.

-Elements and fields: Water/heal fields to douse flames or activate effects, Fire fields to ignite traps or activate explosives, Holy fields for god statue activations etc.

-Reflection: To shield from an explosive blastwave or redirect a magical blast to blow open a door etc.

Hard profession mechanics
Necromancer: Raise a corpse to get information/password/open a locked room from inside etc.

Guardian: Use holy magic to activate a god statue/complete a ritual/ seal a passage preventing reinforcements.

Ranger: Can make use of a fixed position sniper rifle to hit a switch/take out a target of opportunity at some point to assist in progressing.

Engineerer: Can activate disabled golems/rig a door to blow etc.

Elementalist: Can make use of magical reagents, Activate elemental doors, converse with elementals etc.

Mesmer: Can jedi mind trick some goon into opening a door / reveal a disguised illusion, do the kasmeer portal trick.

Thief: Can Identify a trap, bribe for information , locate a weakness.

Warrior: Kinda at a loss for this one since a warriors kinda meant to be the generic everyman. can use brute strength to open something/ force their way through something at some point?

Associated Risks
-Hard class requirements can result in the same lf healer issue in other games.

There’s some very cool stuff in here, including a few I may or may not have prototyped out in my spare time. This specifically touches on Chris’ note about mechanics.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Can we get back to talking about the two main topics we are focusing on please.

Specifically:

1: Progression
2: Foundational raiding mechanics based on the core combat and movement of GW2.

Chris

How do others feel about this? Are these types of mechanics are the way to go to circumvent the lack of Trinity in the game? It’s not about tanks/healers, it’s about condi/reflect teams (similar to the Jungle Wurm).

no, these type of mechanics are way too specific, you will be waiting around for mesmer just like you used to be for a healer. In wurm its all good because you will have many people, some will fill the gaps, but out of 10-15 people?

its all good that reflection might be useful, but that shouldnt be the only way to handle a problem ( or so much better that all other methods suck)

i feel like most of the condi focused enemies are too far in the condi department. Its ok to give an enemy signifigant defences, but making it so physical attacks do like 10 dmg is kind of ehhhhh. Its not as bad as needing reflect though. Every class has some access to conditions, and conditions tends to be playstyle whereas reflect is more of a gimmick.

Crystal Reid.2481:

Dalanor.5387:

Crystal Reid.2481:

Nick.6972:

Just please top with all this Casual vs Hardcore.
Just because I’m able to play few hours in a week doesn’t mean I like hand holding and hate challenging and punishing content.
Likewise, I could be playing 12 hours/day for 2 years straight role playing and exploring without even touching dugeons, fractals, spvp or wvw.

I’m a few pages/days behind, but I would like to bring up this post again for the sake of keeping things on track.

I’ve seen the terms casual and hardcore thrown around a bunch in this thread. Those terms are too loaded and are going to have different meanings for different players. This thread is about brainstorming what raids could be in GW2.

Instead I propose we stick to using our own experiences as a gamer with regards to skill and play time when it comes to raiding.

Crystal! While you are here i would like to ask something.
Regarding to raids players would make bigger efforts to be succesfull, but what about time investment? Do you find it acceptable that raids are at least 1 hour long or you (ANet) wish to tailor it for casual players who has less playtime a week?
Oh another one. Weekly resets? Maybe only gate the rewards so players who run it for challenge or whatever they can still run through the content and practice.

It’s hard to comment on time investments because there’s no real answer to that. Every one has different play times. I’ve seen screenshots of players with over 10,000 hours played on their main character. Whereas I’ve only got about 800 hours on my main. Skill is also going to play an important role here too. A skilled group of players will be able to defeat a boss in fewer attempts, resulting in needing to spend less time within the raid.

Ideally, raiding should be about challenge, not time.

A very skilled group of players that might only be able to raid one night per week could potentially progress through a raid instance slower than a group of lesser skilled players that can play 4 nights per week. And yes, a group of very skilled players that have a lot of time are going to progress through the instance the fastest.

Resets are a much easier topic to discuss because they are somewhat less time involved. So let’s talk about that, and here are some questions for you guys to answer:

• How often should raids in GW2 reset?
• Should we also include the option to extend lockouts for groups that progress slower?

i dont believe in resets at all. I dont really see much benefit to them. Its better for everyone to be able to try/assist etc. Your going to make people a lot less likely to be tolerant of failure/experimentation by only being able to attempt it a certain amount of times a week.

What exactly is the purpose of the lockouts?

sorudo.9054:

Behellagh.1468:

LOTRO and RIFT are freemium as well.

in LOTRO you can get the credits while doing deeds, rift is completely F2P with a premium buff to purchase.
they are fair, STO isn’t.

i dont mean the fact that they sell it, i mean can players trade it for it the other way. Ie spend gold in game to get the currency.

in STO it takes an extreme amount of grinding and not GW2 gold kind of grind, see it 20.000x worse.
LOTRO grands you 5 or 10 turbine points for completing deeds, rift doesn’t have an exchange by in-game means but the credit price -> store price makes that not necessary. (you already have 975 credits for €5,- and the cheap mounts are 15 credits)

ah in that case they have different issues, it doesnt seem either is set up with a system that actually has players trading gold. (the exchange in gw2 is players in game trading gold with people outside of game)
Which suggests as far as selling gold goes, these other games arent particularly worried about creating wealth from nothing. They probably have fairly high gold sinks to compensate i can only imagine. Either that or they dont particularly care about inflation for profit.

NoTrigger.8396:

Zoso.8279:

Personally I feel death should result in restart of the whole raid even if your in zone 5 etc. Just my 2c and again i’d really recommend the taking time to listen to the podcast.

lets say you have beaten 5/7 bosses and want to progress at the 6. boss now. if you die, and you will because you wont kill bosses first try, you have to start all over again?!

this “death = restart the whole raid” idea is something people havent really thought about for more than one second.

Well i would say a full normal raid (exclude like overkill take your time raids) shouldnt take more than an hour.

how about… beating the raid without full wipe gives better rewards, or unlocks something special.
Or you have an additional mode available after beating it, no full wipe mode.

other possibilities, retries on full wipes are something you earn in the raid, or find in the raid.

There is a ton of interesting things that happen when its all on the line though. I remember people kiting through the whole huge raid areas, while other players ressurected and stalled for ressurection weakness, and reset fights for success.

i suppose they could put an overall time limit on the raid, so you actually feel some urgency for victory.

just dont think unlimited tries with no limits on time or anything is really the way a raid should be.

theres got to be negatives and positives other than just trying over infinitely.

sorudo.9054:

phys.7689:

BilboBaggins.5620:

And yet STO and PWI already do it with no apparent damage to the exchange rate.

i dont believe they operate an currency exchange in those games, i think it is just selling of gold.

anyhow i would need the details of their systems to truely understand them, i have only found limited information

it’s exactly the same, they even use bundle deals to give more credit for your buck.

oh and don’t look at STO, they have even more expensive stuff then GW2 (try to buy a max level ship, it’s gonna cost you 25 bucks) and keep in mind, STO is a freemium game so you have a F2P and a P2P part.
if you want a better comparison, look at LOTRO and RIFT.

i dont mean the fact that they sell it, i mean can players trade it for it the other way. Ie spend gold in game to get the currency.

Riesty.9075:

phys.7689:

outliers are a natural occurence with a random model, in any situation. Its not the the system assigns people to be outliers, its that it will happen to someone.

yes and no
you know the system behind? no?
there is no perfect formular out there …
maybe there is a random seed or other stuff creating insane luck or doomed acc
there are enough good and crazy theories about that in this forum ( the mysterius number behind our names here, creation time, day and time…)
they never ever tell us the formular thats a save bed
maybe they mix/change it every patch/every month to be more fair
maybe next month you got one off the insane luck acc
the only thing we know mf is somehow included/involved in that formular and maybe achievment point mf strong tthen normal one
but its hard to made good suggestions with such top secret lag of information

if you read all this sry for my bad english and ty for ya time

See thing is, it doesnt really matter if it is a flawed random assigning people to be these outliers or not. In a real random, given enough trials you will see the same result.

The fact comes down to flaws in human understanding/perception. Developers, and players without thinking about it, assume random is fair, because everyone has the same probability, right?
perhaps, but with random distribution, everyone will not have the same reality. In probability, random is very fair, but in reality it is not fair at all. Natural random distribution suggests that in actual reality some people will get screwed, and some people will be gods.
if you believe/feel you are the screwed person, the system will be highly unsatisfactory.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Wanze.8410:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Wanze.8410:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Wanze.8410:

Gewd.8125:

Every game is a monopoly if you put it that way. There is no real life counter-part to someone that can create unlimited natural resources with a simple database edit.

But yes, Anet does tweak the economy.

They stopped ectos from dropping below 20s and caused permanent hair contracts to drop from 4000g to 1500g.

No. Anet, as a company, didnt list a single ecto or contract on the tp. It was players that stopped that from happening.

Players had pretty much no say in that. Players consume a set number of ectos daily based on the parameters that the game sets by use of recipes, consumable, armor, weapons, etc. Anet sets the drops rate of ectos based on those recipes. Players have no more say in the price of ectos then rainforests have a choice in which places they grow. The parameters set by anet determine the prices of ectos.

I would in fact say that using their databases and monitors on the game that Anet can accurately predict within 1s what the price of ecto will settle at based on their changes to the game, before the changes go into the game and before a player sells a single ecto.

Players only set demand, supply is strictly controlled by Anet by the games parameters.

Thanks for explaining in more detail, that Anet doesnt list or buy a single ecto or contract on the tp.

So no actual logical rebuttal then?

Wha should I when you agree with me.

They may not list any items but they still control the price. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with that, or that there is even a way to avoid it, but they do set the approximate price of items by determining their scarcity in the world.

This of course is not a monopoly, but it also is not 100% player controlled. If players had control of the faucets I think the precursor faucet would be opened a few more turns as would the silk faucet.

Again, not saying that would be a good thing, but it is what the majority of the playerbase would choose to do if they controlled supply of items.

hmm i actually wonder what the system would look like if the players controlled the supply more readily. One would think that people would ask for a decent wage, but in cases where players set their own values, i find it is generally low.
for example players can only make 1 ascended ecto per material a day, and yet, when you break down the prices, there is seldom much profit for that.

without tp limits, people would commonly sell under npc prices.

would people go out of their way to get silk, and then charge 10 copper for it?

hmm i wonder.

If players controlled supply, i think they would probably have to make it so that you have to choose what type of drops you are hunting (barring special drops) Then again people would probably tend to choose gold, and the average price of all drops would break down to whatever that amount of gold was.

BilboBaggins.5620:

And yet STO and PWI already do it with no apparent damage to the exchange rate.

i dont believe they operate an currency exchange in those games, i think it is just selling of gold.

anyhow i would need the details of their systems to truely understand them, i have only found limited information

TheModernProphet.9024:

While there is a Trading Post where players can freely trade most items in the game, isn’t the overall economy of the game a monopoly market structure?

Most of the supply of tradeable items come from RNG-based loot drops or crafted items derived from materials that come from RNG-based loot drops, with some exceptions (ie Mystic Coins from Daily achievements, crafting components from NPC vendors, etc).

The developers determine the rate of tradeable items through drop rates for RNG based items and determine the gold/token amounts for NPC acquired items. Therefore, the supply of all items available in-game and subsequently the Trading Post is determined by ArenaNet at the game-wide scale, which is characteristic of a monopoly. In fact, I would say that all MMO (or even video game) market structures are ultimately monopolies.

In terms of the Trading Post, the players still drive the economy by generating items from playing the game and control the supply of items on the Trading Post itself. Through the Trading Post, there is a “free” market of sorts, where different types of items are in different markets of varying levels of competition. For example, common items may be in sub-markets that are nearer to perfect competition while rarer/limited items may be in sub-markets that are more closer to oligopolies, where a few player sellers control the supply of those particular items.

However, the developers determine the rarity of those items in sub-markets since they control the rate of item drops received by players. The players may control the generation of those items through playing the content, but that can all change with a patch. So even while sub-markets on the Trading Post may have different market structures, the market structure of the game economy as a whole is ultimately a monopoly.

they arent really a monopoly because they arent actively profiting/participating off/in the market. They are as others have said all powerful rulers of the economy though.

Naetell.3815:

RE: Gear equals player skill

I see a lot of:
‘I run zerker because I’m a good player, don’t punish me for being good’
‘If you’re not good enough to go full zerker, use other gear’
‘Stats don’t matter in this game, skill does’
‘Making other stats viable will lower the skill required to beat an encounter’

If you honestly, truly believe this is true, then ask yourself this:
Is that not a design flaw by default?
Why is it that your choice of stats is determined by player skill?
In that design, stats are obsolete. They are not required. Hence, we may as well remove them altogether.
There is no such thing as a player who cannot become a good player. If there is, it is because of restrictions they’ve placed upon themselves. With that in mind, there is no room for gear sets at all.
Furthermore, there is no reason to believe making condition damage, for example, more viable will lower skill level required at all.
Don’t kid yourselves when you refer to a full berzerker player running all support skills as a support player. That’s a DPS player who happens to have awesome support abilities.
In World of Warcraft, I’ve played a Rogue. The Rogue class was all about DPS. Yet, they also had an array of stuns that allowed them to excert an enormous amount of control over mobs. Yet, they were never cited as a control class. They could not gear for control, their main job was DPS.

Having support skills will not make you a support character any more than running 3 DPS skills in cleric gear make you a DPS character.

The only reason you can be a super DPS, control, and support character rolled into one in this game is the disparity between the effectiveness of skills when they are modified by stats. So please, inform yourselves before trying to drag any of that into this discussion.

in this game you are actually wrong. Theres is very little use for other playstyles to use the other stats.

• Control is COMPLETELY decided by skills/traits/runes/sigils no stat gives you an advantage on control other than immobilize and cripple, and thats a minimal gain for a huge stat disadvantage
• Support is mostly decided by skills/traits/runes/sigils except for healing, which is a stat who would only be extremely useful if they forced you to take damage no matter what you do. Which imo would be a bad design for this game. Might, protection, swiftness vigor, blinds weakness aegis stability etc, minimal effect through gear stats, and overall not worth it. you go all out and sacrifice most of your stats, and you ll get like what 60%? duration? A coordinated team would be better off having one other person use support skills/abilities because that would give at least double uptime.
• durability is somewhat effected by stats, but skillful play mitigates it way better than any stat, skill full play by a group of people would still mitigate it better. Proper use of aegis, groups using protection, and weakness. proper use of reflects, walls, sheild skills will always way outweigh the benefit of a stat.

Like it or not, right now, this game your stats have little to do with your role. what skills/traits/runes/sigils you pick determines your role. Stats determine how fast stuff dies, and how many mistakes you can make. This design is why the berzerker meta exists. unless they start to make stats effect skills more than just passive offense versus passive defense, this will always be the case.

Riesty.9075:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/I-have-a-question-about-the-economy/page/15#post4487357
maybe it is true or maybe not
i try to believe your words but there is no proof for something like that ;D
but with insane extrem luck accounts out there
sometthing is wrong
and sure you not tell us what caused that outliers
because some people would rly try to abuse it

1.change acccount bound rng to character based rng => this way you can still have some bad and good characters
but the possibilty off insane luck and bad luck accounts is nearly zero

2.maybe more magic find=> omniinfusion rings accesorie and back piece
combined with some leather accesorie for jewel crafter maybe solve the leather supply isue as well

3.precursor chest=> the higher demanded ones get a higher supply and the lower ones raise in price and maybe balance on a better level
and maybe fractal weapon chest plz

4.gw1 collecots for junk items to get the items we whant that charge lodestone example some other told in this traad would be fine

5.yes more adventure box based rewards would be fine
or dry top amber weapons
one set for each area/region

but to answer the question question i prefer 1 mixed with 2.5 for regions
uh and don t forget to add a cinnamon star recipe for christmas
30%-40mf and 250cinnamon each cookie
to burn down the actual 4mio on trading post

outliers are a natural occurence with a random model, in any situation. Its not the the system assigns people to be outliers, its that it will happen to someone.

maha.7902:

Sytherek.7689:

NoTrigger.8396:

Sytherek.7689:

NoTrigger.8396:

Sytherek.7689:

EDIT: We need some way to prevent “speed runs”, which ruined 5-man dungeons for alot of people. Moving quickly an efficiently is great; racing through content driven by rewards is no fun for many.

preventing something that you personally dont like, but others may enjoy is never a good thing.

Speed runs are the only PUGs available 90% of the time. I have no problems with speed runs; I have a problem with content being locked behind one way of playing.

you can always make your own group and use your personal way of playing and advertise the party like that?

In a game with a lousy LFG tool? They build a solid LFG tool for raids, I’ll make groups. I was a successful raider leader for years in WoW.

Why don’t I join a big raiding guild? Been there, done that, hate seeing stupid egos clash in guild chat and watching people fight over the guild bank. I’m not interested in petty politics in a game; I’m here to relax and have fun.

No thanks, I can have fun without the aggravation.

Lousy LFG tool? Type in group name, make group, people join, is some sort of rocket science required for this?

The tool is not an excuse, you just aren’t interested in making groups.

And PUG “speed runs” are not speed runs, so lets stop pretending that sitting at each boss for 15 minutes waiting for your party that can’t perform skips and dying over and over again is “speed running”.

there is no reason to mock pugs, try to keep your distaste for them out of the discussion. Its going to bait derails. Try to focus on game design ideas and reasonings

Astralporing.1957:

Also, one point i forgot to address before.

Crystal Reid.2481:

cesmode.4257:

Hi, I mentioned this in my first post a few moments ago. I could be out of date as well as this mind set that we were given early on…but isn’t the entire game ‘endgame’ ? Hop in, do whatever you want to do. No pressure, nada. Take your time, the whole thing is your oyster. When you start creating level 80 content only, ala raids, you segregate the playerbase much like other games where its then a rush to max level to do the raids. All of the gorgeous 1-80 content you have in this game becomes completely trivial and a stepping stone to the real game. You might as well just allow people to boost to 80 via potions or something and skip leveling all together because it becomes absolutely meaningless. A meaningless time sink. I didnt need 80 levels to learn my class. Maybe less than two dozen and I had it down. The rest was just enjoyment because the 1-80 content was nice. I leveled through it without any pressure. Put max level content in the game, and we will feel rushed to get to the real stuff. Its human nature.

For this reason, I do not think raids belong in GW2. But if they are to be implemented, I do have suggestions which I have shared

I bolded a section of this that I wanted to inquire about. Do you think the fact the game has been live for over 2 years now change your thoughts on this? This is definitely a common occurrence with new MMO’s that launch with raiding, but what about a game that didn’t launch with raiding? Is there still an issue of players “rushing to 80” when a large percentage of the player base already has at least one 80? Thoughts?

Yes and no. Yes, there is an issue, and no, it’s not directly tied to the 1-79 vs 80 lvl distinction. The issue lies in making raids The Content That Matters. The Content For Real Players. If you look closely at this thread, you will see the preference of the many raid supporters to make raids heavily exclusive. You need to be level 80. You need to have perfect gear (preferably berserker, because if “you are good at the game” you don’t need lesser stat sets :P). You need to have skills in top x% of the players… some other methods of restricting access were also mentioned. Only those that pass that threshold deserve to play the content, and only those that can pass that content deserve to be rewarded.

Sounds reasonable, at first – until you start to think about the unspoken corollary. One that says, that Raids are The Content That Matters, and everything else is a content that doesn’t.

If only level 80 players are allowed to play the content that matters, it means that levels 1-79 do not matter, and that content for those levels do not matter as well. Or at least matters less. That every content that is not so restrictive is somehow lesser. That is quite a powerful message (even if it isn’t true – perception is quite often more important than reality).
(it’s the same reason why you have to be very careful with using the “endgame” label – it also sends a message that triggers lot of preconceptions tied to it)

With dungeons you managed to avoid that issue completely – yes, there were some level 80 ones, but they were just a end step in a ladder that started much earlier. Even if some of those dungeons weren’t really that well balanced for lower levels (those for which they were supposedly designed), the mere fact that they were labeled as such was a message about their inclusivity.

there is going to have to be content designed for those who are more experienced at the game no matter how you slice it. There is really no way you can design content for both. This isnt really a new concept in gaming.
Playing the last level in contra was considerably harder than playing the first. Defeating M. Bison in streetfighter at 8 stars was considerably harder than fighting the first guy at level 1. Defeating Weapon type enemies in FF7-FF9 was considerably harder than defeating the first boss in the game.

anyhow i dont think that just making the content will make it that way.
Is Orr the only area that matters? is Arah the only area that matters? Is Southsun better than queensdale?

As long as the game doesnt give objectively better rewards, people wont see it as the only game.

Sytherek.7689:

Donari.5237:

As I have no legendaries, and just 3 pieces of ascended collected for looks, not stats, somehow I think bag space will be a problem for me for a long time to come in that regard.

Nor am I the only interested raider who isn’t in full BiS. Please let’s not go anywhere near required gear checks to get into a raid.

Gear checks and nitpickers drove me away from WoW. And as my earlier message said, I was a very dedicated (and I think good) raider.

I loved raiding — when it was about friends defeating challenges. When it became about “perfect” numbers, swapping people per boss, greed, and elitism, I left.

Human foibles, indeed. Some of those can be eliminated by design, tho.

EDIT: We need some way to prevent “speed runs”, which ruined 5-man dungeons for alot of people. Moving quickly an efficiently is great; racing through content driven by rewards is no fun for many.

they shouldnt prevent speed runs, but they should create a system where there is some purpose in killing monsters. In gw1 DOA had lightbringer points, and random drops of valuable items. As well as designs where how much you skip is limited.
To add to that, you could have hidden extra objectives that some times trigger upon killing certain enemies, or going to certain areas, with useful/cool drops.

At the end of the day you must accept that any system in place will become more effecient over time though. And people will always seek to be faster as they begin to attain mastery. The best you can hope for is something along the lines of fractals.

One thing i would definately add, is if all players die, you lose the instance. No ressurections, this would lessen the benefit of running past enemies, and increase the likelyhood for killing enemies. Players can of course revive players, but this would have its own difficulties.

Dalanor.5387:

Palador.2170:

How about taking it a step further and taking the full PvP build idea for raids?

Everyone is auto-set to level 80, with all normal traits unlocked, just like in PvP. Gear works the same as well. Thus, anyone can quickly whip up a character and throw them into raids, or set up a character with a raid build and gear that doesn’t match their PvE build/gear.

Of course, this has problems, but we can solve that too. In fact, we can solve two problems at the same time. Problem one is people that don’t know what they’re doing getting into raids. Problem two is that the devs are going to face a period of learning as they implement raids. So, we make the first three or so raids a learning experience for both the players and devs. The devs get to try a few things and see how they work before cranking them up to 11 for later raids, which will be harder. The players gain items that must be thrown into the Mystic Forge to create a “key” of sorts that they need to have on them to get into the later raids. (I’d suggest the key be Accountbound, but arguments can be made for Soulbound.)

I would also like to say that I really like the idea of non-equipment keys of some sort needed to progress through a series of raids. This creates some of the benefits of a gear treadmill without most of the downsides of it.

That would remove the option of quick weapon swapping out of combat. I dislike to remove mechanics so nope.
A simple stat boost wouldn’t be enough upon entering the instance? Similarly how the upscaling works in WvW and LS instances.

the quick weapon swapping was something they specifically added for pvp, im pretty sure they can turn it on or off. It didnt used to be in spvp.

Stat boosts can only take care of shallow changes, and work in odd ways (like how two stat or single stat gear is handled.
the lack of access to traits, and skills is a pretty big difference in what you are capable of.

Crystal Reid.2481:

Sytherek.7689:

Crystal Reid.2481:

I bolded a section of this that I wanted to inquire about. Do you think the fact the game has been live for over 2 years now change your thoughts on this? This is definitely a common occurrence with new MMO’s that launch with raiding, but what about a game that didn’t launch with raiding? Is there still an issue of players “rushing to 80” when a large percentage of the player base already has at least one 80? Thoughts?

Background: Long-time player in another MMO (the game-whose-name-cannot-be-said), with three fully-decked-out characters from top-level raids, raided 4-5 nights a week, was a raider from their original base game thru the expansion prior to “pandas.” I quit that game when “pandas” came out, a large part because of raiding.

Essentially, that game’s raids served to keep players playing with a gear treadmill. That is incompatible with a core GW2 philosophy.

If GW2 raids are a “must”, as in gear treadmill, I will leave the game and so will many people in my guild. Simple fact, not a threat, we just don’t want the “required” treadmill.

Now, if raids are parallel content to fractals, 5-man dungeons, and WvW, that’s great.

Just don’t make them mandatory for an even playing field with other parts of the game. Some unique raid-focused progression track is fine, like agony resistance for fractals.

Dungeons could give very unique visual rewards, too.

All classes must be usable in raids. No more developer-created elitism like in 5-man dungeons or “that other game’s” raids. Do not make certain classes “must have”. If anything, that’s where ANet fails on GW2 — poor balancing. I want to play the class I enjoy without gimping the party.

Raiding can be great fun; some of my fondest social gaming memories are from raids.

Don’t design a social activity around anti-social concepts.

I’m not the one who makes decisions on gear tiers, but it’s very unlikely raids will have a new gear tier with new stats. We would attempt to find other avenues to reward players, and create a sense of progression within the raids instead.

You mention a “raid-focused progression track”. What do you think that might look like?

agony resistance is a bit boring. I would go for something more over the top interesting. That plays into the idea of group dynamics.
Say when certain conditions are met in the raid area, you get specific advantages if you have some experience within the dungeon. For example enhanced boon strength, or DPS, small short hitstun added to attack (not interupt/hard CC stuns) or perhaps enhanced or extra effects for combo field use. Things that can make the encounters more entertaining

probably should not make it item based, because the investment in ascended is too high for you to require people to get all new ones.
That leaves something where you progress based on possibly beating certain raids, or how many times you beat certain raids, or possibly completing certain bonus/side objectives in raids.

So if its not items, it can be special traits, skills, or overall buffs. If it had to be tied to equipment, it would probably need a new slot, or maybe be ring based, since thats probably the easiest to replace.

if it needed to progress, you could make these special abilities scale similar to guild wars 1, where they get stronger the higher your “raid level” might be.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Palador.2170:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

@Galen Grey
@cesmode

about normalized raid gear

Why not make the GW2 version of it, with a much more broader approach? No need for a new kind of gear, Galen already had an (imho) good idea: use the sPvP-armor build. Everyone – from the get go – has the same stats available in his build-library. You retain the skins from your PvE gear.

How about taking it a step further and taking the full PvP build idea for raids?

Everyone is auto-set to level 80, with all normal traits unlocked, just like in PvP. Gear works the same as well. Thus, anyone can quickly whip up a character and throw them into raids, or set up a character with a raid build and gear that doesn’t match their PvE build/gear.

well this was what I was talking about all along, normalizing.

I wasn’t talking about scaling characters (at least I didn’t mean to), I was talking about putting everyone on the same level.

@Malchior

You were talking about problems with buffs and scaling. My suggestion was that no scaling is happening but everyone has the same stats, no buffs allowed in raids, just as in sPvP.

Everyone has the sPvP build UI which would work for raids as well. You choose some trinkets to change your stat-distribution and that’s it. No lv.24—>lv.80 – everyone is equal. All traits unlocked as well.

while i dont really oppose this idea in principle, though its probably a bit harder to implement than it seems, i ask you, as i asked someone else.

How does one differentiate if they themselves or other players have enough experience to handle the raid? Assume that this will be the most challenging content to date on an individual play level, and that a deep understanding of your class mechanics will be expected as the norm.

Sytherek.7689:

Palador.2170:

I would also like to say that I really like the idea of non-equipment keys of some sort needed to progress through a series of raids. This creates some of the benefits of a gear treadmill without most of the downsides of it.

Keys lock-out really qualified and talented players who didn’t want to do last-year’s raid. Often, the keys were unavailable to new players, because they couldn’t find enough people to do “old” raids.

The raid keys become another form of elitism in my experience.

In a system where there isnt a gear treadmill, and as long as there is something valuable to be gained, people will still do all raids, in other systems, the old raids are inferior, and give less useful items, they exist only as a stepping stone. This need not be the case here. Think of a system where it was more like, you have to pass through some areas to get to other areas, but that doesnt mean there is no reason/benefit to be in the middle area.

Sytherek.7689:

Palador.2170:

I think that it doesn’t matter if the game has been live for two years or not. If it did, then why the smurf have you guys been making changes for NEW PLAYERS? The fact is that not everyone playing this game has been playing it for two years. And not all characters are two years old, even on a two year old account. I jumped in shortly after release, and I’ve added several character slots to my account. I have some level 80s, but I have even more that are not level 80 and can’t do level 80 content. It stinks to have to choose between doing the content that I want and playing the character that I want.

I am in complete agreement with the above.

I know people who’ve played casually since launch, and have one (or zero!) level 80s, but many characters at lower levels.

The less artificial elitism — be it about level or gear — the greater an audience that can enjoy your hard work.

its not artificial elitism, you are objectively weaker, and to be perfectly honest, if you had only reached level 25 (which is like the new level 45 mechanics wise) there are certain things you simply could not have done/ be familiar with.

• for mesmer, clone on roll totally changes the flow of shattering and your ability to effect the enemy.
• clones bleed on critical, adds new build possibilities for a condi focused player
• signet use gives distortion as an extra defense combined with distortion reflects (not sure if this actually works, may be a different distortion)
• 3 mantras per charge changes the flow of mantra fighting/support capabilities
• gain boons on shatter/ bountiful iunteruption > reflect boons to party
• focus skills reflect projectiles
• healing mantrkitten
• tered strength reflect combo
• shatter on self, gives you a shatter any time capability, useful for interupts and distortion on the fly

point is, the game is extremely shallow in the maximum use of its mechanics, and right now, a level sub 60 player who hasnt played pvp doesnt have access to any of the abilities, and probably has never used them and see how it alters their playstyles. If raids are going to hope to raise the bar, and require people to actually make good use of their full potential, or gain mastery, there is no way it can do that with people who are missing and unfamiliar with their potential.

This brings up another point, where under the current trait system, its a pretty good chance a player will not have experienced any of this, but to be honest the trait system needs to change regardless to raids, so hopefully that will be a non issue.

also, while not every level 30 cant adapt or understand, if the game has been working properly, the level 80 player should have a greater chance of knowing what he is doing. ( i agree this is not always the case, now more than ever) Lets say everyone gets auto leveled, or access to an spvp like build, What would you specifically use for players to be able to tell, for themselves and others if they are ready to for whatever challenges are expected of them?

Blaeys.3102:

hybrid.5027:

Blaeys.3102:

• It should be impossible to avoid all damage and bosses should liberally apply conditions such as immobilize, weakness, vulnerability, blind, chill and cripple. Players should have to feel like they need to save dodges for the big crushing attacks. Regen, healing, aegis, etc. (as well as condi removal) should be required to stay alive between dodges.

This isn’t self-evidentally good, you have to explain why this is something we should want, not just declare you want it. I’m not against the concept of bosses that do condition overload, but you should be a bit more honest that what you’re trying to do is encourage use of tanky gear for survival.

You are right. This could use more description.

The point wouldnt be to encourage the use of tanky gear (or any gear really), but rather to encourage cooperative and coordinated gameplay through group healing (blasting water fields, new healing traits, etc) and condition removal – adding a deeper level of necessary support to the game. I realize groups do this now to a point, but that isnt the point. The point is to make it borderline mandatory in order to move away from simple churn and burn raid boss strategies.

I dont believe in forcing gear choices on any player. The goal is to reward groups that are good at (and punish groups that arent good at) keeping each other alive (working together).

I realize groups do many of the other things I list in my post. The point of the post was to list my opinion (of course, that should be implied) regarding the elements core to a raid encounter in GW2. The question was asked regarding which current game elements lend themselves to raid design. I was partially following that lead.

I respect that you disagree with my opinions regarding how raiding should manifest in GW2. That’s fine (its even healthy). Obviously, I dont agree with everything you’ve proposed either (although some sounds really good to me). All I ask is that we express mutual respect (even when being disagreeable) so that we can have a real discussion and, hopefully, end up with something we all enjoy if/when raiding makes its way into the game.

Your baseball analogy is a little off the mark. Of course many of those things are already important in dungeons. It isnt about adding something new, but rather about emphasizing certain elements to the point they are closer to being mandatory. The advantage of raiding over dungeons is that you have more people and you should have access to more support and control tools. The encounter should designed around that assumption, in my opinion.

And of course I understand the importance of CC in organized groups. I only run in organized groups (not a fan of pugging). Again, be careful making those assumptions and try to avoid talking down to people a little. Just because I like the way the three toed tootsie mechanic works doesnt mean I had huge issues with the standard defiance system.

Mutual respect is important if were going to have an actual conversation.

you cant have it both ways though, either you are trying to create almost mandatory support roles, or you are not.
I believe making support via healing mandatory isnt a good rule of thumb, there can be advantages to healing through some dmg, but it shouldnt be mandatory.

I would suggest, design it so that damage can be avoided, or absorbed. Give some advantage for absorbing the dmg. Such as superior positioning for longer (lets say avoiding it requires everyone to move out of range) Or the enemy takes extra dmg while you soak dmg, however this is not mandatory, there will be a playstyle where you can absorb it (for a short time) and benefit, and a playstyle where you avoid, and get back in there and go to town.

Regardless, i think its a bad idea to make any one role semi mandatory with the current system. Yes it will require more complex designs, but overall i think it will make a stronger system.
Also remember healing is only one type of support.

I think they should focus gameplay/roles on support dps and control. Support would be buffs at key times, heals weakness/blind. Control would i agree need a rework of defiance. other games control is generally more powerful when it lands, and more limited. i dont think control can really be a prime tenant and role in battle if the system negates 9/10 control effects off the bat

Palador.2170:

Crystal Reid.2481:

cesmode.4257:

Hi, I mentioned this in my first post a few moments ago. I could be out of date as well as this mind set that we were given early on…but isn’t the entire game ‘endgame’ ? Hop in, do whatever you want to do. No pressure, nada. Take your time, the whole thing is your oyster. When you start creating level 80 content only, ala raids, you segregate the playerbase much like other games where its then a rush to max level to do the raids. All of the gorgeous 1-80 content you have in this game becomes completely trivial and a stepping stone to the real game. You might as well just allow people to boost to 80 via potions or something and skip leveling all together because it becomes absolutely meaningless. A meaningless time sink. I didnt need 80 levels to learn my class. Maybe less than two dozen and I had it down. The rest was just enjoyment because the 1-80 content was nice. I leveled through it without any pressure. Put max level content in the game, and we will feel rushed to get to the real stuff. Its human nature.

For this reason, I do not think raids belong in GW2. But if they are to be implemented, I do have suggestions which I have shared

I bolded a section of this that I wanted to inquire about. Do you think the fact the game has been live for over 2 years now change your thoughts on this? This is definitely a common occurrence with new MMO’s that launch with raiding, but what about a game that didn’t launch with raiding? Is there still an issue of players “rushing to 80” when a large percentage of the player base already has at least one 80? Thoughts?

I think that it doesn’t matter if the game has been live for two years or not. If it did, then why the smurf have you guys been making changes for NEW PLAYERS? The fact is that not everyone playing this game has been playing it for two years. And not all characters are two years old, even on a two year old account. I jumped in shortly after release, and I’ve added several character slots to my account. I have some level 80s, but I have even more that are not level 80 and can’t do level 80 content. It stinks to have to choose between doing the content that I want and playing the character that I want.

This should not be level 80 only. I’ll add more to my thoughts on that in an upcoming post.

it should be level 80 only, especially now. you cannot design a challenging encounter without assuming something about who can play it. right now a level 40 is substantially weaker and less utile than a level 80. they dont even have master traits unlocked. While it would be nice if the game had a more shallow level differential, it doesnt any more.

The only way i could see them making it available for low levels is if it worked like pvp and gave you max stats and allocations, or possibly premade level 80s.

Astral Projections.7320:

Huh. I’ve never noticed this even after leveling 9 chars to 80 and who knows how many levels past this on each.

I’ll have to stand next to a Moa next time to see it. Teach it a lesson.

the way experience is distributed, its fairly unlikely you level up while fighting is why.
It has been a cool side effect a few times for me.

Jaken.6801:

So a Raid is basically a multi group (or bigger group) dungeon/instance if I am right, which has rewards and designs that do need the amount of people.
It is either damage or mechanics that are in play here.

As my Guild has died due to not enough greater group activities (Guild Missions were not enough) I suggested something like that a while back.

Ironicly with me not having any idea on how raids work (as I never played WoW and I did not experience Alliance Battles in FFXI and do not count Capital City Siege in Warhammer Online as such), this came to mind:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Suggestion-Multi-Party-Dungeon/first#post3557782

TD;LR
A dungeon which is not entirely depending on an organized party, but benefits from having more people.
More people raise the chances of more loot, but also the chance of harder encounter.
(This is an idea for a different approach to raid-dungeons, which could supplement the ones to come and offer something like an introduction from dungeon to raiding)
Basic Idea
- There are three paths leading to a central chamber.
- Each of the Paths will feature the same amount of events, which allows all of them to get the same amount of rewards.
- It is not required to have all three parties in the dungeon to get to the boss and the final chest
- While each party will not directly interact with each other, their presence influences the other parties process.
- Parties do not have to cooperate till the endboss, making it a little race to the finish if they decide to do so.
- Main goal is the end-chest.
- reward and dificulty at the end is based on the number of participants. Max loot and danger for full paths.
- The chances for single or multiple parties at the end (special loot) are the same

Graphic
(rough sketch)
- Each orange field represents an event zone, with the numbers indicating who is at the event (1.1 = Path 1, Event 1)
- Two numbers represent an event in which both parties can help/hinder the other party by finishing their event first.
- The Boss strenght and the acompanied loot is based on how many parties are in the map. There can be one scaling Boss, or one that changes depending on how many paths are cleared.

Example dungeon run
(szenarios depicted here are just an example. They are no fleshed out design)
- All groups start at the same time
- Group 1 reaches event 1.1 first and engages in a fight with a fire element.
- Group 2 reaches event 2.1 as well, is in a waterfilled glas-tunnel above them.
- Group 2 finishes the the fight first, causing it`s enemy to explode. This causes instabilities in the glass-tunnel and some water leaks down on event 1.1.
- Group 1 has now waterfields to draw the enemy in, cleanse the burning efect it aplies and debuff him. (help szenario)

- Group 3 in the meantime cleared their events 3.1 quickly and entered event 3.2. To proceed they have to choose one of two cages to fall down to create a bridge. Each cage holds an different enemy. They fight their choice and proceed.
- Group 1 just finishes event 1.2 but right as they are able to proceed the cage of 3.2 comes down, forcing them into a bonus event. (hindering event)

- Group 3 reaches event 3.3 first and defeats it. On the sides are cannons which fire on event 2.3. Since they can take the event with 4 people, they decide to give some coverfire to Group 2 who just arrives at event 2.3

- Even though they got held up by the cage, Group 1 reaches event 1.4 first and cleares it before the other two reach their 4th.
- They reach the final chamber and are faced with a decision: deactivating all remaining events so the others can proceed smoothly (loosing maybe a champ bag) or they wait for a bit. (Race insentive)
- Group 1 decides to ask on Mapchat which group wants to skip. Group 2 is allready in fight declines, while group 3 is willing to skip.

- All three groups are now at the final chamber.
- As all paths have been cleared they are faced with the final boss, who is balanced to take on 15 people.
- if only two (or one) groups would have been there, the boss would have been weaker or a completly different.
- After their win, all groups can open the chest and get an extra-reward, based on which version of the final Boss they defeated. Think amount of chains destroyed in the recent twistet marionette LS update

i was thinking of something similar, i like the idea

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

Essence Snow.3194:

djsarcher.9263:

I think at this point it would be interesting to hear what John’s thoughts are on the discussion so far, and whether we’re hitting the right balance between discussing conceptual ideas and potential implementations of those ideas.

He’s not going to like anything that deviates from what has become a comfort zone. The economy is rather complex and by this point managing it most likely has fallen into rhythm like any other job. Anything that disrupts it will have a rippling effect, which would require lots of work. So like most any change will be met with animosity (in this case under a guise of pr).

So essentially what you’re saying is that if he doesn’t agree with you, Phys, Ohoni, etc then it’s because he doesn’t want to put in the effort to make them work rather than your ideas simply not working with the goals that Anet has?

I, and many others, would like a raise at work. Our company make a decent profit every year. They can afford to find a way to give us all raises otherwise they’re just being lazy as it would put them outside their comfort zone and disrupt the rhythm of their jobs.

why are you throwing my name in your arguement. My ideas arent particularly relevant to your statement

Sorry. It wasn’t in regards to his statement but the fact you guys all have the same general belief on how things should be. That’s why your name was included.

Edit: I’ll revise that particular sentence.

actually really dont. Ohoni is in general way more casual focused than i am, and essence is in general more for centralized solutions. However they notice certain flaws and look for solutions, in that we are similar.

MachineManXX.9746:

Umm, who cares? This isn’t GW1, so whats the point of this post?

probably just a point of discussion/realization. Its clear they wouldnt really alter the stat system at this juncture.
Probably the best thing that could come of it, is templates/stat unlocks. But it would still not be as elegant/utile as gw1 stat system.
The stats just dont fit the way the game is played that well.

Ayrilana.1396:

Essence Snow.3194:

djsarcher.9263:

I think at this point it would be interesting to hear what John’s thoughts are on the discussion so far, and whether we’re hitting the right balance between discussing conceptual ideas and potential implementations of those ideas.

He’s not going to like anything that deviates from what has become a comfort zone. The economy is rather complex and by this point managing it most likely has fallen into rhythm like any other job. Anything that disrupts it will have a rippling effect, which would require lots of work. So like most any change will be met with animosity (in this case under a guise of pr).

So essentially what you’re saying is that if he doesn’t agree with you, Phys, Ohoni, etc then it’s because he doesn’t want to put in the effort to make them work rather than your ideas simply not working with the goals that Anet has?

I, and many others, would like a raise at work. Our company make a decent profit every year. They can afford to find a way to give us all raises otherwise they’re just being lazy as it would put them outside their comfort zone and disrupt the rhythm of their jobs.

why are you throwing my name in your arguement. My ideas arent particularly relevant to your statement

Boneheart.3561:

phys.7689:

Tao.5096:

Copestetic.5174:

Harper.4173:

The GW1 system was designed for a completely different game with a completely different type of “average player” playing it.

This system we have now – both stat-wise and skill-wise is designed to be as “dummy proof” as possible so terribly bad people can still perform and don’t drop the game.

That’s the short answer.

Pretty much this. It’s amazing how dumb-down games have become in such a relatively short amount of time.

why dumb-down?

Can I assume that smart games provide 9999 skills, 999 foods and drinks, 999999 other items and allow top gaming sets to be fully utilized and full time own those with basic keyboard and mouse?
Is it dumb down also that everyone have access to endgame gear and are gear and stat wise on pair with everyone else?

you know. I’d like more of such dumb games.
I really do.

im guessing you arent familiar with gw1 stat system, because it was less big numbers, and it was the same stats for 7 years, it also was easy to get max stats and everyone was on par.
Difference is, your stats mattered, and gave you a lot more build diversity and playstyle differences.

Paragon.

what about paragon? his stats mattered, and he had different builds.