Guild Wars 2

butch.8136:

Stop talking about how new players experience these new systems. You don’t know, you’re biased.

Only Anet will know based on the metrics.

doesnt really matter, if the consenus is that the old system was better, for players who may only have experience the old system for a week.

point is looks like they created a system that retains a new type of player, and sacrifices another type of player, which is not an optimal solution to the problem. The system they created is inelastic and poorly adapts to the type of player.

It still remains to be seen if more new players overall will stick with the game, or if they just hit a different demographic.(gained 15%, and lost a different 15%)
then on top of that the next question is how many longer term players will they lose with a more tedious level up system, which they were known for keeping players with under the old system. By long term, i mean people who have leveled a charachter once already.

the game doesnt work well with 50+ people trying to complete the same objectives for 90% of the content in the game.
not sure why they seem to try to encourage it so much via megaserver size, and scheduling of events

Jornophelanthas.1475:

To the poster who claimed that he/she leveled too slowly:
According to the patch notes, the leveling speed through levels 1-15 was accelerated greatly compared to before. A guildmate of mine has already started a new character and claimed he hit level 13 within an hour. This effectively means that the unlocks at those lowest levels can all be attained very swiftly, to the point that they barely count as limitations.
(I have yet to see it with my own eyes, though.)

ReV.6097:

What about the skill challenges, Points of Interest (level 7), Gathering Nodes (Level 9), Vista (level 10)

I haven’t tried leveling a new character yet, but I was led to believe that harvesting was still possible at lower levels. Isn’t it so that the nodes just don’t show up on the minimap yet?

I am going to try a new character later tonight or tomorrow. I will reserve judgment on the NPE until afterwards.

---

ipan.4356:

It’s 15+ where things get really terrible – second utility slot at 24? Third at 35? Elite at 40?

No thanks.

I believe Colin Johansson’s recent post said this was not what they intended, and that it would be adjusted.

- There are some things happening at the wrong levels. Things like utility skills and elites are intended to come at approx. the same time they used to in actual game time, we sped up leveling for levels 1-15 and had them slide back in levels a bit to offset that pacing, they are not currently where we want them to be in the level up system. This was an oversight, and will absolutely be fixed.

Source: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Misconceptions-regarding-Level-gating/page/4#post4396936

the increase in speed of leveling is mitigated by the story steps being bundled together. just doing the story steps alone used to get you to level 5-6. which takes 15 minutes. overall, i would say there is probably 15 min to an hour difference in speed of leveling from 1-15 for an experienced player.
However you can some times level fairly fast in the new system if you happen on some quickly completed dynamic events in the right places.

skill challenges are locked out, i dont believe the others are, or perhaps they are locked out only on first charachter.

honestly though the new level experience gets old fast, i would say around 7, it doesnt last that long, but the unlocks continue way past level 15.

a level 20 mesmer is missing 2 proffesions skills, 2 utilities, has no trait skills,
essentially being level 20 now, is inferior to being level 10 before april patch. and even inferior to being level 5 pre april.

While colin says this may change, we still dont know when it will change, or how much it will change.
the biggest issue i have, is it is not a clear improvement, its a different direction that feels worse. To encourage progression and pacing they should have used different mechanics, that scaled better based on the skill/knowledge of the player.

thats the biggest problem with this system, it holds every one back to the lowest common denominator, with the only way out, being to grind faster. It doesnt adapt to the users abilities/playstyle at all.

suggestion for improvement:

• change unlock symbols to a new icon for information, or suggestion
• if an event the arrow is pointing to ends, say event ended in a readable way.
• zones should be labeled with a level range and a word to describe how hard in relation to your level
• Get rid of non sellable/non salvageable items, these break the rules of the game and serve no purpose. You get these items one time per charachter, they will not destroy the market, or lead to too much salvage material
• All monsters that do not respawn endlessly should drop loot, in story step or not.
• Almost all skill unlocks should be waived for veteran players, at their own choice on char creation. Its a lot more tedious every time after the first charachter.
• weapon unlocks should be an either or system, you get it from killing and if you dont by a certain level it unlocks for you.
• Personal story should be startable at any level, and you can choose how much harder it is, up to the reccomended level. To balance the difficulty, they can give you the amount of exp you would get for completing the step differently based on what level it was at when you completed it.

tested it, it sucks.
its inconsistent, and weird. i think its more confusing than not.
1)some things presented as unlocks are not unlocks (when you mouse over unlocks next level it shows locked icons)
2)the arrow is sort of cool, and sort of confusing, it points you to the closest thing, which changes at times. A new player wont necessarily know why they ran far, and then the thing it was pointing to disappeared
3)the rewards are often a lot of bad items, that are inconsistent with normal game rules, these are the items that you cannot sell or salavge.
4)enemies in instances dont drop loot, therefore you should always kill as few enemies as possible. While the above poster said this is to balance steps out, it doesnt, because some steps are longer and have way more enemies than others.
5) you get low level items you cant use because they are locked out, all offhand weapons before level 7
6) apparently some things are account unlocks and some are charachter unlocks according to colin, so someone telling trying to advise will probably be unaware of this.
7)skill points you cannot access until you come back at an unknown later level, markers on maps arent there early on.

and thats just the weird and confusing cases that were non existent before.

in terms of just sucky boring stuff.
1)weapon unlock by level
2)drip feed unlocking of skills
3)high level unlocks for utilities and elites
4)forced personal story at specific levels (underleveling personal story used to be fun and worthwhile for me, now its boring, and less worthwhile)

overall the system is clearly inferior, and makes it feel like leveling should be a race to map complete at fast as possible.
kill no extra monsters that arent in an event. ignore events that are time consuming, kill no extra enemy in a personal story, Do every heart, real game begins around 36, as compared to like 20 before. you are finally free from grind around 70.

Vayne.8563:

Except that the player retention they’re probably focused on is the player retention from free weekends, which has nothing to do with end game.

I’m sure that you’re right as far as people leaving the game when they run out of stuff to do. But that is a different retention rate then I think Anet was focused on.

I think they weren’t getting enough new players to stay from free weekends, which is possibly why they hardly run them.

i dont think the key to player retention is slowing down things, its creating a hook. Something fast and interesting to keep them wanting to go further.
the best part about gw2 is the combat/freedom, they have very poor hooks.

they need work on some hooks, not on gimping the leveling process. Having leveling process inspire you to continue works better when you have extravagant cool things people want to do, or reach. gw2 doesnt really have that type of stuff.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Is it a pain? Maybe a bit yeah. Does it deserve this level of hate?

I don’t think so.

Yes, but this is what happens in a post-SAB-Riots world where bad behavior gets the attention. Now, less snark.

I don’t mind the hate so much as I mind people running with something which was proven untrue and repeating it like it’s fact (“Heh, can’t gather or salvage until it’s unlocked.”) or sniping at red posts with some variation of “I don’t believe you”/“you must be lying”.

actually, the UI tells you that you have unlocked it, also colin said their may be bugs in some stuff that is supposed to be account unlocked and not account unlocked. So really, blame bugs for that, not players.

laokoko.7403:

If anyone didn’t know, a huge percentage of GW2 players never made to level80, they barely played a few hours.

The problem is not typical to just GW2, but many MMO’s face the same problem. It seemed the first few hours is what decided for new players if they want to continue playing the game.

Anet said they did extensive testing about the new system. I presume they found that with the new system, they are more able to retain players.

What if Anet actually did the right thing? Maybe with the new system, they were able to increase their retention rate by 10-15%? So maybe pushing back skills/utilities actually helps new players to continue playing because they aren’t overwhelmed by so many information. And it makes leveling more rewarding so they actually continue playing instead of quitting.

I personally hate the change. I think if they want to make the changes, they should consider giving veterans the option to be not included in to.

That being said, I think Anet also need to consider the number of vets that will actually quit or not level new characters because they made the change.

then they would need a way to retain those intial 10-15%, and not lose 10-15% later when its time to level a new charachter. Right now the game is pretty much about playing alts in the long term, so a change to leveling for everyone is a dangerous thing.

but my gut feeling is they will lose as many as they gained by altering the system. Also there is the high probability, that while they did discover some problems, they did not discover the best solutions to that problem.
IE they had a system, tested it and saw certain results, they now have a new system that hasnt been tested as thoroughly, and may have just as many faults, but new ones, effecting new aspects.

Also they said they tested for usability, which is different than testing for interest/entertainment.
Asking some one how usuable a product is, is not the same as asking them if they like the product or are interested in it.

Errant Venture.9371:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Cool I agree. After this meeting I will finish my doc and then lets get on with the CDI.

Chris

On which topic though? It seems that a CDI on the topic of guilds would be an exercise in futility at the moment, when one of the most apparent concerns of the forum-going members of the community appears to be the changes to the leveling system (particularly the level-gating of basic functions like skill challenges, POIs, salvaging, harvesting, diving goggles, etc.)

honestly talking about guilds at this point is just as important as talking about the current leveling.
If theoretically the CDI is a development tool, getting a CDI while they are in the brainstorming phase is just as neccessary as dealing with current issues.

Essentially a good CDI could theoretically reduce the chance of a bad implementation on any guild changes they come up with.

They need a seperate entity to deal with and come to an understanding on current content issues.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Aedelric.1287:

If you are proud of what your team has done like you said, then you have no reason to worry about the `current environment´ Chris.

Hi Aedelric,

I am concerned about the thread being derailed.

Chris

Derailing of the thread should be handled exactly as it would be in other circumstances.
That said, you should probably reccomend someone start engaging in a discussion with the community on the topic of the day.
Essentially, your CDI as far as i understand it is something for long term projects, things in development/aka brainstorming.

You probably need some one, to discuss major current events issues separately. This does not seem like it would be against your communication policy, as the beefs now, are actually current content.

Short version

• keep CDI going with regular moderation of offtopic posts, or ignoring them
• get someone else who is actively engaging the the public, and trying to understand and discuss the current issues on the NPE.
  • Someone should be engaging players and trying to see why so many are not liking the changes, and whether anything can or should be done about it. It shouldnt just be an im listening post, it should be a real discussion whereby someone is trying to come to an understanding or gain knowledge.

Traveller.7496:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

There are definitely bugs and some external miscommunication with the system and I want to listen some more before discussing.
Chris

This is interesting.

Chris is saying there has been external miscommunication about the new system. Could it be that you guys realize you went too far with the removing of functions and level gating it too extreme, and it was not supposed to dumb down the game quite this much?

no, most likely what he means is that some of the things the game says are locked, arent actually “locked” and they figure thats a major issue.

however, i think he is mistaken, the bulk of the complaints are about the things that actually are locked, not the suggestions the game gives out.

Yargesh.4965:

Traveller.7496:

I can do all that. But you said the tediousness is in the heads of those who haven’t tried the new system, and I gave you an opposite example.

Point is starting a new character felt fun a few days ago. Even if the trait system update was unpleasant, it still felt like a worthwhile pursuit. But now I just don’t feel like doing it anymore. And I don’t think I’m alone.

No, obviously from the wailing and gnashing of teeth you are not. I am just saying from my own experience it was absolutely no problem getting the character up and running. You out of the levels so fast it is meaningless to worry about the bloody push 1 many are moaning and groaning about.

the system doesnt stop gating at level 10.
your last utility is pushed up by 15 levels
you dont have access to two of your downed skills
you cannot swap weapons
you have like 2 underwater skills
do you have all your f1-f4 skills?
you dont even have your first utility at level 10

its not just a beginner thing it goes all the way to level 40.
your a fan, you want everything to be ok, you hate people talking bad about your game. I get that, doesnt change the fact that they have not improved the game with this update. And it doesnt just effect level 1-10, it effects the whole process.

but eh if you like it thats fine, just accept that many others do not, and they have reasons.

Kaldrys.1978:

It doesn’t affect me so I don’t care. I’m really surprised at the number of people claiming to be impacted by this change. Did everyone choose to create a new character today or something? Not sure why you would do so knowing the changes that were coming. It’s like people are going out of their way to find something to complain about. I just find it funny that all the veterans are getting worked up over a feature that was never designed with them in mind.

a lot of people played this game for the alts, in fact it was probably one of the only things a lot of people who have played for a long time can do.

daimasei.4091:

phys.7689:

its not about what you need to kill monsters, its about how boring it is.

level 1-10 used to be more exciting than level 1-20 is now. that is the problem. its boring.

its not that the game is impossible now, its that its boring, i was constantly watching my level bar the whole time. It didnt used to be like that, leveling would just happen before i realized it.

As someone who has re-roll a kittenloads of times in the last couple of months I don’t get it.

I did the same but now I lvl up faster. Still same events, same weak mobs… If you think is boring maybe is the game and not the changes?

when i used to do alts, my style was to do personal story and mix in some dynamic events, or easy hearts, while killing random mobs that i hoped had bonus experience to unlock skills. I did skill points in the area so i would have my skill points for utilities. I enjoyed doing things like self combos, (which involved weapon swaps) and in general nice synergizing skills.

the focus of early leveling has changed from experimenation/exploration/goal oriented events. to grinding fastest exp/unlocking your locked powers.

The leveling system actually changes the way you play the game now, until you are high enough and have enough skills/traits at your disposal to actually ignore leveling again.

the whole thing makes me really see the benefit of a game with no basic levels, and you only level skills, and traits/etc.

daimasei.4091:

phys.7689:

weapon skills earned via leveling only
weapon swap pushed to level 15
personal story requires 10 levels of grinding between each part.
utilities pushed to 35
skill points in starter areas that you cant access
confusion on non skill based unlocks
underwater combat with 1 skill
certain proffessions make little sense without unlocks (dual wield on theif disabled) locked proffesion skills.

basically makes leveling feel like a race to get unkitten, with little actual specific golds other than grind exp

First of all: Thank you.

Now,

1. weapon skills earned via leveling only

You unlock all in no time. There is not real underwater combat at low levels so no need to unlock underwater weapons ASAP.
Also, there is no need to unlock every single weapon one by one.

2. weapon swap pushed to level 15

One single weapon is already too strong for lvl -15 areas and again, you hit lvl 15 in no time.

3. personal story requires 10 levels of grinding between each part.

Ha! Key farm kitten.

4. utilities pushed to 35

Same as point 2

5. skill points in starter areas that you cant access

Stupid yes, but it break nothing. Did people really need those skill point right away?

6. confusion on non skill based unlocks

I don’t get this one :/ (sorry, it’s a little late)

7. underwater combat with 1 skill

See point 1

8. certain proffessions make little sense without unlocks (dual wield on theif disabled) locked proffesion skills.

Kind of dumb but see point 1

9. basically makes leveling feel like a race to get unkitten, with little actual specific golds other than grind exp

To each his own I guess.

its not about what you need to kill monsters, its about how boring it is.

level 1-10 used to be more exciting than level 1-20 is now. that is the problem. its boring.

its not that the game is impossible now, its that its boring, i was constantly watching my level bar the whole time. It didnt used to be like that, leveling would just happen before i realized it.

Vayne.8563:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Vayne.8563:

Actually they may very well care what players think. But some players don’t think the changes are bad and I’m one of them. I didn’t like the initial trait changes, and think they need work. But this recent change is better for me as an altoholic.

OP, you might not understand why, but I wouldn’t want to go back to how it was. I prefer this current method (though the trait system still needs serious adjustment).

You mean spamming 1 all through the inital instance is good? You think that locking mechanics like the downstate until level 5 is good? Do you think locking the unique class mechanics is good? Hell, the ranger still has his pet since level 1, he just can’t control it. That’s utter nonsense. I really don’t see, not in the slightest, how the “A Fresh Start” changes should help anyone.

It took me less time with less skills to level than it does in the old method, but there’s more.

There were so many dead levels before. So many times I got, before the first feature patch, where I was leveling and I’d look and think, oh look 3 trait points. You didn’t even know you were leveling. It was like…nothing. No feeling of getting anything.

Unlocking the stuff this way, the feeling of progression is better for some people out of the box, even if they have several alts. If you don’t think many people like bells and whistles and SOMETHING when they level, you might be surprised. In fact, in the old system, if you didn’t note what your stats were and what they became you might not even know your stats had increased. Now you do…but it’s more than that.

I’ve been thinking about it, and thinking about the free weekends Anet hardly ever gives away. Why? Because those free weekends for people to try the game would maybe bring new players…but not if knew players couldn’t see definite progress early on like you see in most MMOs.

The leveling is fast enough anyway, if you enjoy it. It’s not fast enough if you don’t. But some people enjoy leveling alts and I’m one of them. I enjoy it more when I see change as I go.

It doesn’t matter to me if I don’t have skills 5-10 for a while, because I don’t actually need those skills to level. I’m trying it on a ranger now, but next I’ll try a mesmer to see if it’s too hard with the unlocks they give you.

Probably engineers have it the worst because of the kit situation. But so far, I’m enjoying it more. And if it helps people stay after free weekends, then I’m definitely all for it because no game is going to move forward if it doesn’t attract new people.

That’s a good business decision that long term is also better for me. Particularly now that we’ve seen games like ESO and Wildstar not doing as well.

Everyone seems to think the biggest MMO market are those people who already play MMOs. I’m convinced this market can grow and I’m convinced the new player experience is the way to go about growing it.

ESO and Wildstar have systems closer to this, except they actually have more things that matter to give players. One of the big complaints for both was that it takes so long to get a rounded out charachter and really see how it plays.

The dead levels in GW2 were mostly dead for me due to lack of new interesting goals/content. Completing hearts and getting waypoints is something you have done 20 times by the time your level 30+ They didnt have a strong narrative or interesting goals in the middle of the game. Making the basic stuff into those goals isnt really good, especially when the answer to achieving those goals is grind faster.

You will not find leveling too hard, they nerfed the game to compensate, its just a lot more boring, and a lot more focused on leveling.

and the kicker is, i dont believe they will keep more players with these changes, many people left the game because they found it dull, with not enough going on, and no clear direction. And not a lot to do.
that hasnt changed, many people wanted more, and you give them the same amount over a longer period,

i dont see this being successful at retaining new players.

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Actually they may very well care what players think. But some players don’t think the changes are bad and I’m one of them. I didn’t like the initial trait changes, and think they need work. But this recent change is better for me as an altoholic.

OP, you might not understand why, but I wouldn’t want to go back to how it was. I prefer this current method (though the trait system still needs serious adjustment).

you like it because you are a collector, and like reinforcement for goals. They could have appeased you without alienating so many others though.

Actually my favorite part of the new patch so far is the new leveling experience, not the collections.

yes, you mentioned you like getting something new every time you leveled, and unlocking things, i meant collecting the skills, and seeing progress with every level. Point is, they could have added things like that without neutering the more natural leveling experience.

there was nothing good about realizing that i should ignore every enemy in the inital instance, and that i would get nothing useful out of killing the centuars before the area boss. Walking around with 2 skills sucked, and 3 skills was like eh. Getting a blue warhorn than i couldnt actually equip until level 7. i hit 12 and i didnt even have a utility yet. (for engineer this is a huge blow)

I get that you like seeing new stuff when you level up, but there is nothing better about having skills locked out, and making the game feel like you should be trying as hard as possible to level as fast as you can. They could have added new interesting stuff for you to get/do as you level up that wasnt basic skills, like downed skill 2 and 3.

Vayne.8563:

Actually they may very well care what players think. But some players don’t think the changes are bad and I’m one of them. I didn’t like the initial trait changes, and think they need work. But this recent change is better for me as an altoholic.

OP, you might not understand why, but I wouldn’t want to go back to how it was. I prefer this current method (though the trait system still needs serious adjustment).

you like it because you are a collector, and like reinforcement for goals. They could have appeased you without alienating so many others though.

daimasei.4091:

Evans.6347:

daimasei.4091:

And finally, lets be honest. Most complains are from kitten key farmers. If they leave the game I can assure no one is going to miss them.

Actually, out of the plentiful complaining topics on this matter, I have seen little complaints about key farming and much, much more about the tediousness of it all.

Mmh, can you make a simple list of complains not related to the key farm nerf?

weapon skills earned via leveling only
weapon swap pushed to level 15
personal story requires 10 levels of grinding between each part.
utilities pushed to 35
skill points in starter areas that you cant access
confusion on non skill based unlocks
underwater combat with 1 skill
certain proffessions make little sense without unlocks (dual wield on theif disabled) locked proffesion skills.

basically makes leveling feel like a race to get unkitten, with little actual specific golds other than grind exp

Snowmoon.1758:

For all the altoholics screaming about the nerf to the new lvling experience,
im sure at least 90% of you just run with commanders in Eotm to farm exp rite?

if so then whats the big deal?
have they also gated eotm at a certain level?

eotm karma train is mindless and boring, but i suppose, now, so is the PVE world. Sad that both options suck now. but i guess eotm would be the better of the two.

Sturmruger.3920:

“I seriously doubt you actually read anyones post on this thread”

I read enough to know that the complaints I see were not legitimate. The leveling experience IS easier. Why on earth would any veteran player want it to be harder when leveling an alt? Skills being level gated are no big thing for even a new player. Nobody is going to stay level 10 forever. I could level a brand new toon to 80 in a matter of a few evenings now.

For the record, I never considered the game hard. It is easier to level now which is a good thing for those wanting to level that alt. Making things easier for people to get into the game and level up wont change how they have to play later on.

uhhh the only experience that they buffed was from 1-15, and it tapers off rapidly at level 10. Its not really much faster than it used to be, i know, i have leveled multiple charachters to 80.
i also leveled to 10 today, it took me about 70 minutes to get to level 10, before, that may have taken me 60-90 minutes tops. so maybe its a little faster, but not much.

the changes go way past level 10 though, you wont get your utilities complete until 35. thats a 15 level difference to come close to what you once were. you wont have all your downed skills until 19.
its not about hard, its about being boring and tedious. before the game gave you tons of options, now it takes them away

fellyn.5083:

laokoko.7403:

can someone actually confirm that? I know lvl1-10 is fast. Wonder if 10-20 is fast too.

Playing with a friend tonight. I used a lvl 20 scroll, they didn’t. By the time I got to 25 they were already level 16. Don’t know if it’s faster but in the time I gained 4ish levels they gained more than 15.

if you are doing low level content, then you get a lot less exp, in newb areas, its very ineffecient to do lower level areas for exp.

Sturmruger.3920:

I seriously doubt any of you have tried leveling a character after these changes. Its never been this easy before and if you vets are truly worried about leveling an alt you should be overjoyed. You can do it quicker than ever. I suspect a large portion of the crying is really about key farming becoming more tedious. If you create an alt and somehow find it to be harder because of the skill gating…you just cant be helped. Are you saying you prefer the leveling to be slower but more involved? For me I just want to get my alts to 80 where they can be of the most use to me. I can do that quicker now. I dont need to experience every little thing Ive done 20 times before.

the boost to exp tapers off around 10, and your skills that you previously had to be 20 for are now 35. you get less skill points so you will have less options for utilities/etc.

but hey you get a bunch of shiny stuff when you level now and a tiny peice of your charachter’s soul, so its all good

well at least some one likes it, so its not a 100% failure, just big one

JackDaniels.1697:

So let me get this straight, veteran players have been wanting more hardcore content implemented to this game because they felt that it is too casual and that it didn’t feel challenging enough, that it was too faceroll, and that progression didn’t feel all that good because you got pretty much everything from the start.

So while they didn’t get level 80 endgame content, they did get early game stuff that gives you that progression, that gives you that challenge because you don’t get most of your traits and skills so early on. The game is still casual, but you can’t faceroll through content anymore, at least not early on.

So while it’s not the dungeons and more world bosses made into challenging behemoths, they did so with the leveling and the system they’ve put in place.

It really is all about perspective, and people just don’t seem to understand that they got what they wanted, but just because it’s not in a place where they expected it to be, they think it’s all wrong.

The game has become more challenging in this area, so open your eyes and appreciate it, because this is what you were looking for.

I really am buffled why veteran players complain that leveling is too hard now, when you want more hard kitten in this game…

Anet can’t win.

no one is complaining that it is hard, they are complaining that is boring. Also having less options is not challenge, its actually simplifying the equation.
not only that, but they rebalanced the areas and levels to be easier so you re entire theory is shot.

also do not conflate two different complaints, some people wanted more progression, that is not the same people who wanted more difficult content.
also, more progression is not taking everything you already had and rationing it out over 80 levels.

And i really dont even believe that the system will be good at retaining new players. So how i see it is, we are sacrificing a lot, for no gain at all, because i dont think this new player experience will retain a greater amount of players. They added nothing to the system, they simply drew it out more, which i feel will appeal even less to players who were uninterested.

best thing they could of done was create more interesting things.

laokoko.7403:

can someone actually confirm that? I know lvl1-10 is fast. Wonder if 10-20 is fast too.

the patch notes say 10-15 is faster, but its curved, so around 10-15 its pretty close to what it was before.
truth is though, story steps used to give a lot of exp really fast, so my theory is overall the exp is pretty similar to before

Behellagh.1468:

When I first started I thought it was kind of cool that I could quickly unlock all 5 weapon skills and then I cycled through each weapon my prof could have until I unlocked them all.

Now it’s the other way around. Each skill is unlocked for all weapons at the same time but now you’re stuck behind a level gate for each. Don’t know which way is faster. Don’t remember what level I was when I unlocked Skill 5 on my first weapon but it probably was well before Level 10. All weapons? Don’t know.

you could completely unlock a weapon in the starter map, so that would be level 1. as for all weapons, that depends on what class, what weapons, and how you play. for most classes, i doubt it would be level 10. it gives a very different feel, not unlocking skills by choice, but rather through experience.

Behellagh.1468:

Someone was screaming on the forum that they couldn’t use their copper-fed kit until they were 15.

it does say something about unlocking salvage at certain level, but i was able to buy a basic one before that from a crafting vendor.
I did notice some other vendors werent selling any basic items, but i figured they were just bad vendors.

Behellagh.1468:

Glov.5342:

also note that the DOWNED SKILLS are LOCKED

so are skills for UNDERWATE COMBAT. You have only the #1 until roughly lvl ~8.

I had plans on getting all classes to 80, but there’s no way I’m touching a char pre-40 in a very, very long time.

Salvage is locked until level 12 and basic kits and better at 15, including the copper-fed salvage kit. Gathering is locked until level 9.

i think you can use them, they just dont tell you about them or something.

OMNIBUS.2913:

phys.7689:

OMNIBUS.2913:

Veteran players seem the most upset by this which i dont get. I started since release and its not like i dont hav 8 experience scrolls and 80+tomes of knowledge sitting in the bank. If your a veteran how do you not have any?

your level 20 guy still has less skills than he did before, you only have one utility, no traits, and who knows what else has been sealed away. i know that you need to get to 19 before you unlock you final downed skill.

I have enough tomes of knowledge to instantly get to 80 If you have only been playing a few months the complaints make more sense tho.

yes, the design should be for everyone. The fact that some people who had a certain playstyle can get around it doesnt mean its a good system. They forgot that people are new to the game for only 1 charachter, and a big selling point for the game after that was leveling alts. The whole entire leveling process is now about grinding exp as fast as possible, and then you can go back and play it normally, except it will be super easy, but at least you wont feel crippled.

OMNIBUS.2913:

Veteran players seem the most upset by this which i dont get. I started since release and its not like i dont hav 8 experience scrolls and 80+tomes of knowledge sitting in the bank. If your a veteran how do you not have any?

your level 20 guy still has less skills than he did before, you only have one utility, no traits, and who knows what else has been sealed away. i know that you need to get to 19 before you unlock you final downed skill.

Bolbo Baggins.8594:

I just restarted playing this game. Made a new alt. The new leveling experience is not horizontal anymore. Its timegated, restricted, dumbed down and the fun is gone. I have the feeling that this is only the beginning and doesnt end with the first 15 levels in the future. So i must say, the motivation to play is gone.

it doesnt end with the first 15 levels, it continues throughout the whole leveling process.

Vayne.8563:

FireproofHeretic.3860:

Vayne.8563:

Moonsphere.4295:

This new update really makes me want to stop playing this game, since this game feels like every other game. I feel bad for spending my money to this and all those gems.
I actually felt good to support devs and buy gems. Since I thought: Hey I’m helping them.
And now this…changing the whole game. I thought this supposed to be new and different mmo not like any other.

How is it like every other game? Because it slows down the way people get new stuff. Dynamic events are still there. Scaling still exists. The active combat really isn’t any different.

All this system does is make it so leveling feels rewarding to people. That’s why they did it. To return to the game for new players a feeling of progression that’s been missing.

That doesn’t make it like every other game. No one can steal my node, still. No one can steal my kill. I still get experience and loot if I participate.

Putting in a tutorial (which this game lacked) isn’t making it like every other game. It’s putting in a tutorial.

It doesn’t feel rewarding to me! They’ve taken away skills and locked them to higher levels so I can “feel” rewarded when I earn back what I used to just have?
The active combat is the same, but you’re going to be doing a lot more of it than you used to have to in order to gain progress. This game wasn’t a mob-grinding engine before, and now it will be.

A heart now gives you about a third of a level in the new 1-15 experience. I played for an hour, got to level 8. I’m honestly not really seeing a problem here.

Almost every game teaches people how to play it. Guild Wars 2 did this badly. Now it does it better. It’s called taking one for the team.

you keep on saying this, but do you realize that it was faster before? just doing personal story up to level 10 got you to level 6, but it also was more entertaining because it was faster paced, and more risky.
people doing key runs slow did it in 24 minutes, and got to level 6, how long do you think it takes them to get to level 10?

also, your heart now gives you 1/3rd is not based on levels at 10+
not to mention the gating doesnt stop at 15.
your last utility is now level 30 something.
your elite is level 40
you dont get weapon swap til 15.
downed skills arent completely unlocked until 19
its not just a level 1-15 change, its the whole leveling process.

CalamityO.2890:

Haven’t tried to level up a alt yet, but from what I have read. Leveling up is much faster, but it is marred by skill lock.

its only faster till like 10 or so, at which point it rapidly gets closer to normal.
Also note, that if you did personal story before you would get big experience very fast, so all in all its probably equivalent

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

so what makes it faster to level early on? did they reduced the exp?

I’m confused, beside making renown heart easier.

Seems like everything is giving more experience. I’ve made a bunch of alts, and this is by far the fastest I’ve ever leveled, without even trying. I’m getting a level about every ten to twelve minutes.

you used to get to level 6 in 17-20 minutes in most key farms, so doesnt seem any faster. However leveling without personal story is probably faster. So it probably evens out.

Shaogin.2679:

you think you have it bad? Engineers have naturally crappy weapon attacks since they have kits, but not kits for new engies till level 12 now. lol

also their profession skill is based on what utility they have

Speckly.3729:

‘i just made an alt to test it and it’s boring’

uhm.

of course it’s boring to you. you know all of this stuff already. someone who is genuinely new who doesn’t know it yet isn’t apt to feel the same way.

it wasnt that boring before is the issue.

Maria Murtor.7253:

New players will deal with it, because they do not know better. Veterans have tomes for quick leveling, so I do. I couldn’t care less.

Btw.: Someone (German language knowledge required) just told me, he did 10 levels in about a hour.

doing 10 levels in an hour is not a great feat. doing personal story got you a lot of levels in the same time.
key farmers will tell you, you can get to level 6 in old system in 17-20 minutes. The speeding up of leveling is actually only becoming equal with doing personal story, except that was a lot more entertaining, because you had skills, a reason to use different weapons, and specific goals with the personal story.

Vayne.8563:

All this patch did was change 1-15 zones to tutorial zones, so people can relax into a character. They’ve greatly increased the speed of leveling. It took me an hour or so to get to level 7. So level 1-15 you level through super fast (or use a 20th level scroll if you have to) and most of the major unlocking is done.

But what this has done is given people more information about what happens when they level.

Anyone who doesn’t think this was necessary hasn’t spent much time on player helping players forums.

it aint that fast.
Also it feels a lot more boring.
they tied too much to leveling now, so the game feels more like a leveling race than before.
1-15 is too long for tutorial zones. Many games with tutorial zones make them skippable. (mostly because they are some of the most boring content in the game)

moving the story to every 10 levels is a big mistake imo. Makes the game feel way more like grind then story then grind then story.

also the tutorial is essentially up to 36 now. What was once level 15 is now closer to level 36 including traits.

i think these changes may allow them to keep some new players, but i think they have sacrificed others who will find it grindy and tedious.

pdavis.8031:

Moonsphere.4295:

pdavis.8031:

Moonsphere.4295:

This game is exactly like any other mmo now!

It seems that thats what the players wanted. At least here on the forums…Which really makes me sad.

Wow..really?
I thought this game was supposed to be different. This WAS great mmo..until this patch. I got impression from all trailers and interviews that this game is different and unique.

It WAS different and unique. And thats what made it great. But every other week there was a new thread about how Anet needs to implement XYZ because thats what other MMOs do. I guess they were listening after all. But I won’t know first hand until I get a chance to play.

its not the worse thing in the world, its just a lot less entertaining. Basically you just go around doing hearts and exploration with less skills/traits/weapon swaps/etc.

oh yeah down state unlocks at 5, but you wont get your 2 down skill till 13 and your 3 down skill till 19.

pdavis.8031:

Moonsphere.4295:

This game is exactly like any other mmo now!

It seems that thats what the players wanted. At least here on the forums…Which really makes me sad.

no, its what a focus group they did on new players in specific area wanted. Basically they created a solution for some of the bad players who left quickly, ignoring the good players who left quickly, and the people who didnt leave at all.

pdavis.8031:

There are several threads already talking about the feature pack and how it is. So instead of monitoring 16 different threads, lets try to consolidate them here. I have had a chance to play the updates yet, but am excited to check it out.

Right now I am having mixed feelings about it. Not so much the key farm nerf, or other mechanic nerf/buffs but the new level experience in paticular. The patch notes, and Wooden Potatoes videos make it seem like it’s actually a better system, with lots of cool things, but this thread (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Congratulations-Anet-1/first#post4381580) kinda makes me sad.

So what are your initial thoughts on the new feature pack? For those who have had a chance to play it?

• Tp is different, but way more informative
• Collections would be interesting if i hadnt already exhausted most of that content and threw away most of the items.
• new player experience definately feels like something your goal is to get through as fast as possible. You basically have to grind to 10 before you can do any story. The levels happen fast low level, but feels boring as heck. the first 15 minutes with 2 weapon skills feels the worst. (but its only 15 minutes or so)
  dunno how new players will handle it overall, but i think anyone who has even 1 charachter will not look foward to doing it again as much.

Basaltface.2786:

next patch you probably wont be even able to leave the low level zones at ALL till you are 80..

most likely we will get some forms of the VIP system next, bringing us fully in sync with the chinese client

i tried it just so i would know.
Its really boring now, and becomes more focused on leveling than playing/exploration. 10 levels before you get a personal story is boring.
i imagine engineer will be one of the most boring classes, since it needs utilities which are substantially pushed back.

on the plus side

• every time you gain a level you feel like you are slowly becoming uncrippled.
• the arrow that points where to go, i think is the most useful change for newbies.
• lots of twinkles and shaky stuff to click when you level.
• makes you realize how much better the system used to be overall

pdavis.8031:

Ankushp.7245:

This appears to be more of an effort to ‘kill key runs’ with the excuse of helping newbies (dumb ones that too)

Kind of overkill just to nerf key farming…I kinda like the changes, although I haven’t been able to play them yet, but they seem really good. My wife has been waiting for these kind of changes for awhile. It was kind of a turn off for her, just being thrown into the game and not having much of an idea of what to do.

they dont tell you what to do.
they havent added any tutorials
in fact you can not do personal story until level 10
all they have done is space out the things you gained and gated more abilities behind levels.

Maxwell.7843:

Vanive.3804:

omg, This change won’t really affect us vet MMO gamers who have been playing MMOS for 10+ years. Most of us will fly through the levels so fast these changes won’t mater anyways. Those who are super new to MMOs or totally confused as to how GW2 works compared to a game like (sigh) WoW will have a more accessible game. This is no complaint I’m reading in the OP, this is pure elitism at it’s finest.

I disagree, in particular with the “more accessible game” part.

GW2 was my fist mmorpg.
The game did feel overwhelming during the first hour or so, BUT not because I had a skill bar! To me the quantity of skills was never a problem, and I remember that when my character was low level I wished I had more utilities unlocked, to make the fights more interesting and varied.

What made the game overwhelming was the huge amount of stuff not covered by the tutorial, stuff that I could figure out only thanks to the wiki.

This update “dumbs down” things that for me were never difficult to grasp, while not addressing the things that actually need a Google search.
So, to me, the game now is actually less accessible: not only it still lacks a good and complete tutorial (that was what it needed in the first place), now leveling is a worse experience too.

bingo.
slow down basics, to the point of boredom, and still in the dark with the actual complex mechanics.
bad solution to the problem, and it effects everyone who is leveling a charachter, new, or vet, skilled, or not skilled.

Vanive.3804:

Aenaos.8160:

Vanive.3804:

omg, This change won’t really affect us vet MMO gamers who have been playing MMOS for 10+ years. Most of us will fly through the levels so fast these changes won’t mater anyways. Those who are super new to MMOs or totally confused as to how GW2 works compared to a game like (sigh) WoW will have a more accessible game. This is no complaint I’m reading in the OP, this is pure elitism at it’s finest.

So a player coming from WoW where you have to manage in excess of 30 skills will
have a problem adjusting to a 10 skill bar and a dodge…yeah

Pretty much. I have recommended this game to 3 people, My Brother in-law, brother and a friend from work…. all three left within the first month over some of the issues this patch addresses. Hey the average person isn’t always gonna get it or see the value in constantly rolling around as a game mechanic. The downed state was a big factor.

actually what you imply, is that they will still leave the game in the first month, because down state is still in the game, it just appears at level 5, and dodging is still a major factor for playing the game, it just is more needed when you are level 10 now. And thats really the whole point.
this patch has not made anything easier or explained it, it has just made you deal with it later. And for the people who make it past the first month, it has made every charachter you replay substantially more tedious.

Game needs a hard mode or veteran mode, if they are going to keep designing the game based on people who are substantially below the curve.

mtpelion.4562:

Behellagh.1468:

3. Those that think they can same money buy avoiding the fees and taxes.

“Psst. Buddy. I can get you a deal on some ectos that fell off the back of a Dolyak.”

I kind of wrapped that in with “scamming the system”, but yeah. Trying to skirt the tax system that helps the game.

paying tax helps the game in the same way that deleting your gold helps the game.

p2p trading has advantages for players.
not having to pay before you sell an item of value
setting up deals with repeat customers
not having your price determined by last sell
discussion of prices.

now, personally i dont care too much because i wouldnt use p2p trading often anyhow, but to claim its only useful for scammers and idiots is completely inaccurate.

Vanive.3804:

omg, This change won’t really affect us vet MMO gamers who have been playing MMOS for 10+ years. Most of us will fly through the levels so fast these changes won’t mater anyways. Those who are super new to MMOs or totally confused as to how GW2 works compared to a game like (sigh) WoW will have a more accessible game. This is no complaint I’m reading in the OP, this is pure elitism at it’s finest.

flying through levels because they suck is bad design, and it will still require almost the same time as it did before.

Stephane Lo Presti.7258:

Hi everyone,

I’m going to paraphrase Colin on this topic. The decision to implement the New Player Experiment system came from tens of thousands of usability testers and interviews with players who tried Gw2 and left leading up to China launch both in NA/EU and in China. It came as a surprise to us but it was an important for us to acknowledge that a number of systems, downed included, were difficult to understand for many players.

For the downed, system we tried a downed tutorial, building downed into the level 1 tutorial and other ideas. After usability testing with numerous different groups, we found that the best rate of people learning and understanding it came from having it be layered complexity and the solution we went with above. Intuitively that wouldn’t have been my guess either initially, but we found people understood it better this way than all other options we tried.

This same level of testing led to the other changes as well. At the end of the day the biggest take away is that all of us (including a lot of people on the forums) probably know games (and Guild Wars 2) really really well. We have millions of users, and a tiny percentage of them frequent game forums. Just because all of us learned those systems well and thought it was all really easy doesn’t mean we are the norm.

I hope this helps everyone here understand that this was a decision to improve the game for many people. Thanks for your understanding

I know you are reiterating what colin said, Tell them these points.

1)Making it easier for some, by making it in general slower to reach basic game mechanics may net you some players, but it will probably lose you just as many, you went too far to one side.
2)the 1-40 leveling experience is packaged for new players 1 time. For every character after that its no longer new. Look at how many people have alts at various levels, how much do you lose by forcing everyone to play at the pace of a brand new player who has played no MMOs? What you have done is akin to making it so you can only drive a new car at 20 miles per hour for the first 3 weeks.

I understand what you guys goal was, but i think it was short sighted and will overall harm the game instead of improving it.

I suggest you create a experienced player mode option that is unlocked after your account has one level 80, with a lot of these things reworked. Currently playing a new class is the main veteran activity, and you have made that a lot less enjoyable. Go back to the lab.

the game seems to be going toward fully integrating the gem shop into regular gameplay, not everywhere, but you can expect most of the things to achieve, or earn, will have some part of them involved with gem shop.
like wardrobe
food boosters
gathering
etc.
gem shop is and will continue to be fairly entrenched in the game