Guild Wars 2

Dean Calaway.9718:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Something that me and a friend discussed the other night, was how GW2 has guaranteed no rewards, and this really bothers me. Whenever you are exploring the world, and find that hidden cave, you are almost guaranteed to find nothing of interest what so ever.

There may be a treasure chest filled with the same useless green and blue items that drop from any other enemy (if there is any chest at all). There may be a veteran monster, that just takes longer to kill, and doesn’t provide a meaningful reward worth the effort. And all this does not encourage me to explore the world. What’s the point of discovering a cave behind a waterfall, when the cave contains nothing that I wouldn’t find anywhere else?

The game needs better rewards overall, but it certainly needs to reward exploration better. This could be done in the form of achievements, but also in the form of an extra page in your journal. When I discover a cave, let there be something special in it that makes me feel rewarded for my trouble.

Better rewards for people to farm?
That veteran talk reminds me of something, oh yeah, the Champions “they should have better rewards” alright there you go what did people do? Yeah…

Finding it its is own reward, and it the devs got to the trouble of making something for the journal (which would be a substantial amount of work) 99% wouldn’t care while the other 1% would complain about some detail that its not 100% accurate according to GW1 “they’re killing the game! So much disregard”.

champions dropping loot is substantially better than the alternative. people doing dungeon speed runs doesnt mean dungeons should drop crap.

tolunart.2095:

AGGabriel.9230:

Sadly precursors and legendary will be only for the rich and the devs will get there wish making them exclusive items

Kittenlitter… I got a precursor drop – Dusk no less – and had less than 1 gold at the time. If I wanted to create a Legendary it would have been relatively easy to farm/buy mats for a few months and I’d have Twilight. Instead I sold it and used the money to level and gear several alts, gave some gold to my wife for her toons, stuff like that.

Random drops do happen, and can happen to anyone who plays the game. One drop can put you on the path to a Legendary or turn a “poor” player into a rich one.

random luck is random luck. Out of the 6 players i used to play closely with, all having clocked 1000-3000 hours, one person got a precursor drop from monsters, and it was a rage.

So regardless, no one should be counting on, or expecting a precursor to drop from normal gameplay imo.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Zaxares.5419:

Not to mention that Badge Exotics also need a gold outlay to purchase in addition to the Badges. It baffles me as to why dungeon Exotics can be salvaged/Forged, but Badge Exotics can’t.

Dont you realize the sheer number of badges you can get doing something as braindead as the karma train in EotM? Most dungeons only have 3 paths, which means you’re limited to 120 tokens per day. A SINGLE dungeon armor takes 2-3 days to buy. BoH armor? 2-3 HOURS if you’re slow. So no, they dont even have the same time investment involved.

honestly balancing things around the EOTM train is not going to make sense on most fronts. But the point is, 2-3 hours AND 1 gold per exotic, for salvage? thats a losing proposition 9/10 times, and multiply that investment times four for a mystic forging. Thats also a losing investment. 4 gold and 8-12 hours training for 1 random exotic.

I mean i get them not wanting to give a floor value, or worry about badge aquisition, but the time it takes would put the value of badges pretty low. Sure every once in awhile someone would blow a huge wad and feel like they got a great deal, but fact is if that time was put into whatever is the current money meta, that value would be better spent elsewhere.

Its really bad design as its implemented anyhow, they never warn you that any sigils/runes used with these gears are irretrievable. Even if they wanted it to salvage to nothing or back to badges, they should put that functionality somewhere.

I think identifying a problem in this sort of scenario is actually a pretty big deal. In a medium which interacts with so many people, how does it diagnose itself. Are the people the first one to see it? are the designers? How many people? how many designers? is there one person capable of stepping outside the issue and making the judgement call? I mean some problems will be obvious, but others, not so much.

Orr temples give you 30 per event. its the best way to do it. unfortunately it isnt as easy to tell when the event spawns, or go to a different instance to see if its up there. yea mega server

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

You guys are mistaken in the assumption that legendaries are supposed to primarily be something for rich people to buy, it supposed to be a merit based goal, though i think we can say now, that its kind of far from that.

Merit based goal that’s inherently expensive and unnecessary.

Luxury items:

• Precursors
• Legendaries
• BL Ticket skins
• My wife’s Coach purse and matching boots
• My Gucci hat

something merit based isnt a luxury, its supposed to be an achievement. Like winning a pulitzer prize, or designing a building in NYC if your an architecht.

to be honest when they made legendaries they had no idea they would cost this much for a precursor. (which they kind of should have known) this is why at one point they said they were a bit too expensive and they would watch it. (this was when it was like what 300 gold?)

many things didnt go exactly as they may have thought. Some things should theoretically be baking as we speak. But legendary was not supposed to be your gucci hat. Thats supposed to be the gem store stuff.

I honestly think they need some items that would fall more in line with luxuries, marketed and designed to be gold focused rewards/endeavors. Treasure goblin back packs that drop money. golden pistols that shoot coins. Extravagant housing (if they ever add housing) but legendaries werent meant to fill that role.

It’s an initial achievement that can be sold on the TP , thus making it a luxury good. And you can’t make a Legendary without a Precursor, which is also a luxury good.

Edit – Colin might not have anticipated the costs, but I’m sure John did.

Edit 2 – If Legendaries were Account Bound upon crafting, then your argument might hold more water. But even then, I could also argue that it’s a luxury achievement.

did you watch the video i linked where they talk about legendaries as endgame goals that were supposed to show your mastery of the game, and as prestige items? by the two head designers of the game?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

You guys are mistaken in the assumption that legendaries are supposed to primarily be something for rich people to buy, it supposed to be a merit based goal, though i think we can say now, that its kind of far from that.

Merit based goal that’s inherently expensive and unnecessary.

Luxury items:

• Precursors
• Legendaries
• BL Ticket skins
• My wife’s Coach purse and matching boots
• My Gucci hat

something merit based isnt a luxury, its supposed to be an achievement. Like winning a pulitzer prize, or designing a building in NYC if your an architecht.

to be honest when they made legendaries they had no idea they would cost this much for a precursor. (which they kind of should have known) this is why at one point they said they were a bit too expensive and they would watch it. (this was when it was like what 300 gold?)

many things didnt go exactly as they may have thought. Some things should theoretically be baking as we speak. But legendary was not supposed to be your gucci hat. Thats supposed to be the gem store stuff.

I honestly think they need some items that would fall more in line with luxuries, marketed and designed to be gold focused rewards/endeavors. Treasure goblin back packs that drop money. golden pistols that shoot coins. Extravagant housing (if they ever add housing) but legendaries werent meant to fill that role.

almost every MMO has a partially player driven economy, its just a marketing term.

But as to what drives GW2 economy? Items of high demand, everything elses value is based on its relationship to items of high demand.

actually legendaries are meant to be an endgame pursuit, its not a luxury. it actually (was) a long term goal. They were supposed to show game mastery, they were supposed to be an achievement, a prestige item.

around 7 minutes they talk about legendaries, and how they are end game goals, prestige items.

You guys are mistaken in the assumption that legendaries are supposed to primarily be something for rich people to buy, it supposed to be a merit based goal, though i think we can say now, that its kind of far from that.

How does one identify when there is a problem with the economy on a player level.

How does one tell if players do or do not feel like the time they spend is valuable?

How does one tell if players feel pressured to one meta economically, versus a genuine enjoyment of that playstyle?

Then the next question is, how much would you change to solve these types of problems? What type of things would you change? just playing with the numbers seems like it would generally be ineffecient in some cases.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

The mechanics of the solution that is currently in place, may or may not be the mechanics of a better solution.

By the rules of steam powered engines, they have certain limits on how effecient and powerful a steam powered engine can be. A better solution was a gasoline powered engine (at the time) which had different mechanics/limits. The next good solution may be a hyrdrogen cell engine, or something even more fundamentally different.

point is, from a problem solving point of view, the fact that the system as it currently stands cannot give various players competitive values, doesnt mean a different system/solution cannot.

They can institute different spread of value gained per activties, they can make activities that also take the increases in wealth gained for the task from other players, there is any number of possible solutions that use different mechanics.

first you identify what your problem/goals are, then you design a system that meets your needs/wants. If you start off married to certain mechanics, you will always be limited in your avialable solutions.

And we’re right back to where we were days, weeks, and months ago. Before you come up with solutions, you must first identify the problem. Because the economy is working as intended, there’s no problems here. That leads to the most obvious conclusion – the problem is a self imposed one. The economy and the Trading Post doesn’t have a problem, you have a problem with the economy and the Trading Post. But the error of this thinking is that if you come up with solutions to your problem, that only affects yourself, and doesn’t take into account everyone else in this game.

Edit – The “you” in my post is referring to all the TP complainers, and not directly at the player in the quote

Hmm i think the question is how does one identify a problem.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Actually HHRs initial arguement was that people who are the best at other parts of the game should get paid more than people who play the TP. After various discussions, considerations, and some of the comments of JS he realized overall this was not feasible. That being said, his revised argument is that the top players of one playstyle should not be inferior to the top players of another playstyle.

This is not about spreading the wealth, What he really wants is merit to be the primary determinant of value. He is fine with a lot of people not getting a lot, if they dont put in effort, or they are not skilled.

Essentially he objects specifically to trade focused players having a different and scaling mechanic for their returns, while other modes are comparitively flat.

As for your merchant class ideaolgy, you once again are missing his real point. Anet decided that they didnt want people of skill to gain too much benefit over people without skill. If they didnt decide that, they could have made how much you get for say a dungeon run, be based on how many people failed it, or how well you did compared to other players.

They could have charged each player 1 gold to enter a dungeon, and how much you make in the end is based on your performance within. They could have put high value items behind difficult onjectives, or require you to be good.

HHR as far as i can tell would have little problem with that.

And in cases where the game is designed where skill is rewarded, the people with the most skill make as much or more than the merchants. Imagine if the top 1000 players were the main supplier for legendaries, then their wealth would probably rival if not defeat the highest TP barons.

Now, to be clear i am not saying these things should be put into place, I am using them to illustrate how the mercantile dominance is a case of design/philosophy and not a matter of fact.

Also i am using them to illustrate how HHR desire for merit based rewards is not anti capitalist exactly, and definately pretty far from communism/marxism or hand outs.

Here’s the fundamental problem that HHR doesn’t understand (and I hope you’re not making this same mistake): Profits from the TP do not equal Rewards from Content. In order to be sure a Farmer can make more money than a TP trading player, Anet would need to put massive gates on the trading ability of players. Why? Because Farmers create wealth (currency and items) that didn’t exist before, so there are gates in place to keep inflation and currency devaluation in check. TP players only take the existing items and currency in the game, and trade it between each other, with 15% being deleted from the game entirely.

HHR doesn’t understand the differences between the open market (business) and rewards from content, and pushed John to respond directly to him. Then after his claims were dismissed, he keeps trying to push his misguided ideas. You cannot compare Apples to Airplanes.

So we go back to the current debate, where he wants to spread the wealth around because of the sense of Entitlement to “fair and balanced” wealth distribution.

The mechanics of the solution that is currently in place, may or may not be the mechanics of a better solution.

By the rules of steam powered engines, they have certain limits on how effecient and powerful a steam powered engine can be. A better solution was a gasoline powered engine (at the time) which had different mechanics/limits. The next good solution may be a hyrdrogen cell engine, or something even more fundamentally different.

point is, from a problem solving point of view, the fact that the system as it currently stands cannot give various players competitive values, doesnt mean a different system/solution cannot.

They can institute different spread of value gained per activties, they can make activities that also take the increases in wealth gained for the task from other players, there is any number of possible solutions that use different mechanics.

first you identify what your problem/goals are, then you design a system that meets your needs/wants. If you start off married to certain mechanics, you will always be limited in your avialable solutions.

Behellagh.1468:

We have two groups of players on the TP.

The first group believe that individuals should always look out for their own self-interest first. To them getting the most for an item they are selling or getting the best deal on something that they want/need isn’t wrong, it’s self evident. These are active players on the market.

The second group don’t bother trying to get the best deal on the TP. For whatever reason they seem to favor speed of transaction over additional income or savings. Whether it’s all about speed or they don’t consider the additional funds worth waiting for or they simply don’t realize that the TP isn’t an NPC vendor. They are passive players on the market.

In my previous ori ore example the second group are the buyers at 6s and sellers at 5s while the sellers at 6s and buyers at 5s are part of the first group. A flipper is just someone from this first group who is doing both things at the same time.

If passive players outnumber active players then guess what, active players will become wealthier than passive players. So more exclusive items will gravitate to active players because they have the money. Basic supply and demand economics says the price of on item is set to balance supply of an item with the demand at that price. This is as natural as hot air rising, cold air falling. So as the wealth gap increases, prices of these items will continue to rise follow the wealthy.

We see active players on the TP from all of the over- and under-cutting which helps to close the price gap. They are fighting for a share of the passive players. If it was just active players on the TP, all the prices would have collapsed already that may vary slightly over the course of a day. So it’s the passive players that are keeping the gap between high bid and low sell since they aren’t willing to challenge the price status quo.

i dont disagree with your assessment, even though there are a few shades of grey in there.
However, how does this type of philosophy differ from the rest of the game? Should the rest of the game have more difference in gain between the passive and active players? The guy who does 4 times as many dungeons in the same time frame makes roughly 4 times the money, but the guy who can flip 4 times in the same time frame, makes a greater amount depending on how well he flips (what % return) multiplied again by how much he initially invested.

they could actually try to create systems that mimic this type of play in PVE, however, they do not, because they dont think its good overall philosophically. They want the game to be easy to enter, not overall competitive, and not focus on giving the most value to the people with the highest skill, while mitigating the value they give to people with a lot of time.
But this is fairly different from the TP design.

I think it would be better if they followed a similar philosophy, or perhaps just more balanced.
The other possibility is to lessen the participation of passive/semi passive traders.
two of my ideas to that effect would be to create a business liscence, and portfolio, that essentially places items into a business portfolio and tracks your gains and losses.
keeps track of your current portfolio’s value based on value at the time of purchase compared to its average value.
Essentially it would clearly tell some one if they were failing at business, many people have no idea. They totally fail at business, and make up for in effort/production without realizing it.

a different idea, would be to have a different system that is not player based, but world/lore based where you contribute to the economic success of your country/order/tryria, and can earn some high value non sellable items that way in a predetermined balanced fashion from a gameplay perspective.

but ehhh its just brainstorming, i doubt either would be put in play

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

First of all, the concept of a legendary as a luxury item is debateable, especially within the framework of a game, where every thing you get is essentially a luxury.

Luxury: a condition or situation of great comfort, ease, and wealth; something that is expensive and not necessary; something that is helpful or welcome and that is not usually or always available

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/luxury

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

.

Yeah, keep on hating. Go ahead and hate me so much that you don’t even notice how you’re missing every point made. Oh, you already missing them…

Not sure if you realized it or not, but John already dismissed your claims in the other thread.

and as you follow that definition every single item in this game is a luxury, none of it is needed, everything here shows that you have the ease or wealth to sit around playing a game. Everything you try to get in this game is not needed, your player never gets hungry, he doesnt need a house, he has no needs.

that said, even if you want to think of them as luxuries that are somehow different than every other part of the game, they still do not have to be supplied in the way they are supplied.

mtpelion.4562:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

HRR’s argument is that he wants Anet to spread the wealth. Why? Because he’s unable or unwilling to put in effort to make money. The Merchant class players are well off, because they’re smart about business. They take existing items, and find ways to profit off of market. The Labor class players who go out and farm/mine for goods will never be able to attain the same levels of wealth that the Merchant class has. This is because the Labor class player gets items that never existed before (rewards from content), and sells these to the Merchant class player. Anet has gates/limits on how much new wealth is added to the game.

The current debate at hand is that some feel that the Merchant class makes too much money, and that the Labor class makes too little. HHR’s views on this is that Anet should reduce the Merchant class’s income, and increase the Labor classes’ income to find a balance. Basically, punishing the smart market players, in favor of spreading the wealth to the farming players.

Which would in turn punish the Labor class players since the buyers would now have less money.

not really, the economy isnt as simple as one class being the only buyers. And btw, you guys have broken it into a class dichotomy now. Something i think they had hoped would not be the case when they initially made the game.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

HRR’s argument is that he wants Anet to spread the wealth. Why? Because he’s unable or unwilling to put in effort to make money. The Merchant class players are well off, because they’re smart about business. They take existing items, and find ways to profit off of market. The Labor class players who go out and farm/mine for goods will never be able to attain the same levels of wealth that the Merchant class has. This is because the Labor class player gets items that never existed before (rewards from content), and sells these to the Merchant class player. Anet has gates/limits on how much new wealth is added to the game.

The current debate at hand is that some feel that the Merchant class makes too much money, and that the Labor class makes too little. HHR’s views on this is that Anet should reduce the Merchant class’s income, and increase the Labor classes’ income to find a balance. Basically, punishing the smart market players, in favor of spreading the wealth to the farming players.

Actually HHRs initial arguement was that people who are the best at other parts of the game should get paid more than people who play the TP. After various discussions, considerations, and some of the comments of JS he realized overall this was not feasible. That being said, his revised argument is that the top players of one playstyle should not be inferior to the top players of another playstyle.

This is not about spreading the wealth, What he really wants is merit to be the primary determinant of value. He is fine with a lot of people not getting a lot, if they dont put in effort, or they are not skilled.

Essentially he objects specifically to trade focused players having a different and scaling mechanic for their returns, while other modes are comparitively flat.

As for your merchant class ideaolgy, you once again are missing his real point. Anet decided that they didnt want people of skill to gain too much benefit over people without skill. If they didnt decide that, they could have made how much you get for say a dungeon run, be based on how many people failed it, or how well you did compared to other players.

They could have charged each player 1 gold to enter a dungeon, and how much you make in the end is based on your performance within. They could have put high value items behind difficult onjectives, or require you to be good.

HHR as far as i can tell would have little problem with that.

And in cases where the game is designed where skill is rewarded, the people with the most skill make as much or more than the merchants. Imagine if the top 1000 players were the main supplier for legendaries, then their wealth would probably rival if not defeat the highest TP barons.

Now, to be clear i am not saying these things should be put into place, I am using them to illustrate how the mercantile dominance is a case of design/philosophy and not a matter of fact.

Also i am using them to illustrate how HHR desire for merit based rewards is not anti capitalist exactly, and definately pretty far from communism/marxism or hand outs.

Ayrilana.1396:

How is the problem the means of how they’re supplied? They’re intended to be that way as they are considered luxury item. Making them craftable won’t really fix anything as those components required to craft them would likely skyrocket as they did with ascended crafting. If all components were account bound then expect some serious time gating.

Edit: I apologize if I can’t give a more thorough response but I’m limited on time and capability ATM.

First of all, the concept of a legendary as a luxury item is debateable, especially within the framework of a game, where every thing you get is essentially a luxury. Then there is the question was it even intended to be a luxury? Early descriptions from Eric Flannum described it more as an award for achievement within the game, dedication, etc. More like being recognized for being at the top of your field, or a long term goal, like buying a house.

but even should you decide it is a luxury, the method of supplying luxuries does not have to be random or rare due to base supply. Lamborgini’s which many people have brought up, are luxuries due to the cost of development, engineering, and marketing. Certain Hotels are luxuries due to location, and ameneties, quality of service, etc.

The method of supply of Precursors is currently random, this means anyone who doesnt believe in gambling, or their own luck must pay. Its supply is also not elastic enough, Non in demand precursors are comparitively worthless, and drastically undervalued from the main means of aquistion, and High demand precursors strain the market and alter the economy in the wake of their demand.

With a different design for the creation of precursors, it could better be properly balanced for whatever goals anet has for it, more balanced for the market.

Precursors are fairly well designed in terms of being a driving force for the economy, but honestly i think its too much weight being placed on a small amount of goods. Ascended has lessened their burden, but overall, but its still pretty heavily based around legendaries.

but this is a talk about precursor/legendary design, not really about the game philosophies, probably better left for another thread

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

this is compounded because everyone must TP but people can opt out of most other playstyles. IE more newbs to get ganked for profit in the trading game.

The flaw to your thinking is that you believe we “must” use the TP. You are incorrect. You want to use the TP because you want to get instant gratification, rather than farming for it. If you dislike free trade so much, you don’t have to participate in it. The game offers everything you want already, you just need to put in the time to get it.

The debate at hand is basically “anti-capitalism”. There is a reason why Communism doesn’t work.

the Tp is the most effecient means of getting any specific item, because no specific behavior gives direct results. In real life the people who are the best at getting iron, are the people who actually dedicate themselves to getting iron, they get way more than anyone else, and when they sell it, they can command value based on their effeciency at getting it.

In GW2 this is not the case. Going out to specifically get iron ore IS NOT the most effecient way of getting iron ore, because a large amount of the iron ore is supplied as a byproduct of another persons life. In this case the best way to get iron ore is to do whatever money making task is the meta, and then buy the iron ore.

I do not dislike free trade, but the trade is not free. You can buy whatever you want, but you cannot go out and get whatever you want effeciently. This game is not free trade, its impossible to be so, JS even said that. This is because anet designs, and controls the economy. They are the one who have decided how items are supplied, and how much farming you can do in a zone, and how rewarding each type of content will be.

I can have an anti capitalism debate if i want to, but thats not what this thread is about, that is how you wish to simplify it so you can argue it. Or possibly to derail it. Who knows, but this isnt really a debate about capitalism. Also you mistakenly assume that capitalism is the only mercantile focused socioeconomic system. Humans have a long history of trade and economics, capitalism is only recent, bah im getting distracted, suffice to say this debate isnt about capitalism.

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Ayrilana.1396:

Learning to flip is no more difficult than running dungeons or other activities. All of which require some form of skill and effort. Obviously there’s a time investment involved at the beginning to build the necessary skill set. If players do not want to do this then it’s there own fault and they really have nobody to blame but themselves.

The game is not specifically designed so that TP flippers will be more profitable than everyone else. It’s a byproduct. Anyone can make gold off the TP with a very little research that at least paces how much you make from other activities.

I know you have more of a socialistic viewpoint on how an economy should be but that’s not how it was designed in this game.

im not really a socialist either, i am an engineer, designer, and tend to follow scientific method. I evaluate these systems based on how they are performing, and i analyze the pros and the cons and the facts, and the logics. Thing is, the games philosphies, as the OP says are drastically different. This is why they interact so poorly imo.

If the entire game was more based on competition, and some giving up something for the exceptional, i think it would work better

If the trade system was more controlled and cooperative i think it would work better.

I think, after having this discussion and having explored the concepts presented, there really is a fundamental difference in design philosophy between these two modes, which leads to much of the friction. If the system was unified in either direction, there would be a lot less conflict.

Would it be better if precursors dropped as account bound or could be crafted as account bound?

precursors being account bound is a different issue, Even though people bring up precursors a lot, because they are a high demand item seen as an endgame item, any item they introduce to the market with a high demand/low supply would create the same problems.

I definately think account bound precursors would effect the economy/perceptions/etc, but im not sure how much or in what way. Overall i dont think people would be satisfied, many people despise gambling. If they were account bound and had some direct means to work toward, they probably wouldnt be as upset about it, but just having the direct means to work toward would probably solve a lot of the beef even if its not acct bound

really i think the acc bound issue at the end of the day is more about the percieved meaning of the legendary than the economics of it, in this specific instance. While people do once inawhile play around with precursor prices, overall they are in line with the costs of productions, and modest profit people would want for the risk, in fact imo they are sometimes too low for the resale value/risk.

the reason they are expensive is that people want it, and some people have a lot more money than other people/want it more, and they have a fairly low supply with a high barrier to entry for suppling it yourself.

The main problem is actually the design of how they are supplied, than the market itself, imo.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Probably not as easy to answer, answered multiple times in other places, or yes, working as intended.

Logically speaking, BoH are dirt easy to obtain, and since the armors you can buy are exotics, being able to salvage or MF them means you can reach around a gold profit from each piece considering salvage results, and up to 17g through MF and rolling an armor with Strength runes in it.

they cost gold AND badges of honor, Magic finding 4 to get back one would not be profit, as i believe each piece costs 1 gold or something in addition to badges. Salvage of exotics gives less than 1 gold.

The main reason they probably dont allow it, is it creates a sort of floor value for certain things. Right now, the value is lower the most you can expect out of an exotic salvage is an 1-3 ectos and 1-2 mats and dark matter (which cannot be directly sold) but later this may not be the case, ectos could rise to 1 gold one day, at which point this would be profitable.

However, they arent really as easy to get as you think. If they had more sinks, they probably would be seen as more valuable. Its not so much that you get a ton, its that you have virtually nothing to spend it on if you arent buying tons of seige.

Its like people get hyped on dungeon tokens being used to salvage, but getting one guaranteed rare, or 1 guaranteed exotic for 6 runs of a dungeon is far from being an OP reward. i mean doing 2-3 hours of WvW you might get 40-90 badges, that gets you like 2/3rds to 1/2 of an item.

It really isnt that profitable considering other methods of obtaining wealth, to salvage or MF the item.

Ayrilana.1396:

Learning to flip is no more difficult than running dungeons or other activities. All of which require some form of skill and effort. Obviously there’s a time investment involved at the beginning to build the necessary skill set. If players do not want to do this then it’s there own fault and they really have nobody to blame but themselves.

The game is not specifically designed so that TP flippers will be more profitable than everyone else. It’s a byproduct. Anyone can make gold off the TP with a very little research that at least paces how much you make from other activities.

I know you have more of a socialistic viewpoint on how an economy should be but that’s not how it was designed in this game.

im not really a socialist either, i am an engineer, designer, and tend to follow scientific method. I evaluate these systems based on how they are performing, and i analyze the pros and the cons and the facts, and the logics. Thing is, the games philosphies, as the OP says are drastically different. This is why they interact so poorly imo.

If the entire game was more based on competition, and some giving up something for the exceptional, i think it would work better

If the trade system was more controlled and cooperative i think it would work better.

I think, after having this discussion and having explored the concepts presented, there really is a fundamental difference in design philosophy between these two modes, which leads to much of the friction. If the system was unified in either direction, there would be a lot less conflict.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I can name you one already: precursors. The supply of precursors is that low that the demand from player who have gained extreme wealth is higher tahn the actual supply. If those player wouldn’t exsist, the price would be lower. The reason why a Lamborghini is that expensive is because there are enough people out there who have the money to buy it. Otherwise the price would be lower.
And I don’t want ANet to say “Sorry, you’re enjoying traidnign too much, thus we have to stop it entirely.”. I want them to say “We appreciate that you enjoy traiding so much but we have to balance the game, so you can, once you get bored of the TP, go to other gamemodes without losing half of your income.”. Or “We appreciate that you enjoy traiding so much but there are items that should keep some prestige and if you’re able to afford one of those items every month then there is something odd.”.

That’s like telling Microsoft that they make too much money, so they should be punished for it.

This philosophical debate is now turning into a Marxism vs Capitalism one.

you are fundamentally misunderstanding marxism, and capitalism. Even though some aspects are analgous.
HHR isnt really representing for a collective, he is probably more interested in a merit based system that does not give an advantage to traders.

Some people are however asking for a more cooperative economy, while some are advocating for one that is not necessarily cooperative, but not as exploitive. See the key here is there is a great many different philosophies in play here, but the reality is the philosophy of trade in this game is drastically different from the philosophies present in other facets.

Trade in this game is about getting as much as you can from other players, with a small side of fullfilling missing niches. It is essentially PVP, by and large you gain value by taking more value from other players for less work. Its competitive, and the rewards are generally limited only by your ability to find new opportunities, and how many other people can find, and capitilize on them and how much your competition wants to be paid.
It has some good points, and it has some bad points.

Other facets of the game are specifically designed to have a very limited reward even for excellence. The hardest fights in the game reward less, or the same as the easiest fights, this is by design. The longer you work the less effective that work will be, this is by design, Anything that a lot of players do, will give less rewards, or be altered to give less rewards, this is by design. The other facets of the game are heavily controlled, limited, and designed to not let exceptional people get too far ahead, or be too beyond the norm in what they gain.
The philosophy in these parts of the game sacrifice all of that, to keep things less competitive, less elite, to smooth out the effectiveness of effeciency and non effeciency. ETC. it has its advantages, and disadvantages, some times i like it, some times i hate it.

But thing is, these two philosophies are very different, they present very different types of gameplay, If PVE was more competitive, or rewarded differently based on your skill/performance, than in and of itself would create a balance.

If trading was less competitive, and measured, with values being decided based on supply/demand/cost/etc then the game would also be balanced.

but its not, you have two drastically different philosophies behind each design, which attracts drastically different players, but they have to interact and compete/or not compete for the same resources.

this is why there is a disconnect, and will probably will always be one. The game is disconnected.

I cant go out and get large value for being the best dungeon man ever, or the top WvW commander, or the lore master, or the explorer/jump puzzle master. because they didnt want to reward the best players over the average. in PVE

By the same token, i cant expect reasonable, balanced and thought out prices, at rates that match my earnings in pve/pvp because prices are determined totally on demand and wealth distribution, because they wanted to trading to be determined by competition, essentially they wanted to reward the best players over the average, in trading.

this is compounded because everyone must TP but people can opt out of most other playstyles. IE more newbs to get ganked for profit in the trading game.

Ayrilana.1396:

eithinan.9841:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Researching items is a one-time deal. Ofcourse it’s not that simple, you want to check your profit now and then but finding those items is a one-time deal. Furthermore it isn’t even that hard to predict the velocity of the most popular items.
Setting up buy orders and sell offers is the minor part time-wise.
[snip]

Wrong. Again you show how little you know. No item price is static thus constantly keeping up to date information on trends of each item you are involved in is important. Not a one time deal.

edit: You are a pro troll BTW…

Pretty much. I had this discussion with I’m in another thread where he made it off as simply gong onto gw2spidy and flipping what he saw had the highest margins. If it’s so easy to flip and make profit easily then why isn’t everyone else doing it? It’s just jealousy that players who don’t play the way that he believes they should play should not be making more gold than him.

There is difference between something being hard and something people aren’t interested in.

The only reason the tp is more profitable is because the game is designed to not be that profitable for anyone else. Top 5% tp player versus top 5% anything else, tp player gets more value.

Don’t say players trading value versus game gemeration, because the game actively discourages players from trading value in anyway besides the tp. This is design, not evolution.

Once again this all comes back to philosophies
They actovely decided tp mitigate player differemces based on skill/time to make the game what they think of as better, but that philosphy is absent in trade design

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Zoxea.9564:

They promised quests or craft which offers guaranteed to get sooner or later. The concept of GW2 is: You can stop the game and come back later, your work is not lost and you can continue where you left. This is the guaranteed.
http://www.gw2shop.net/topic-1532-annonce-colin-johanson-reaborde-la-question-des-precurseur

He was speaking in terms of story. In terms of the economy, if you stop playing the game, you’re left FAR behind in terms of wealth. Just like in real life. If you quit your job for 6 months, and your friend keeps working, guess who would have more money.

Zoxea.9564:

Impossible for them to follow the price in the time.) is totally broken because the price of precursor is extremly broken days after days, months after months.

Let me address this directly. I’m in game, and I can put in a Buy Order for a Precursor (Venom) for 71 Gold, or I can buy it outright for 95 Gold. That is nowhere near your 1540 Gold price quote. So the prices are not “broken” as you claim. You just want the wrong Precursor.

heres what broken means in this context.

It means the supply of the item is not in line with demand, such that the item is a reasonable goal.

Irl, even luxury items tend to increase in production as the demand increases.

essentially, the question is, what was the goal of thier design, was it for people to be able to get a precursor after 2 months of normal play? 3 months? a year?
then they can measure and see how well it is performing to that expectation, they can also look at what type of play is closest to whatever target they were aiming for.

And really i think the design of the economy, not the TP itself is the biggest culprit.

• The game forces people to the TP, who have no idea what anything is worth
  • capitalism is based on the idea that everyone who stays in the market is self interested, and aware of the value of what ever they are providing
• Most materials and items are generated with no intent
  • capitalism in general is supposed to be corrected not only by demand, but also by production, items that have less value get less production, until they meet the demand curve and provide a reasonable compensation for the good/service
• People cannot go out of business
  • people who are not good at business go out of business, this stops people from being able to prey on the weak businessmen as much. Also most people have no idea they are losing as much value as they have on the TP.

If you create a system where even non business minded people must sell everything they get, and in general must purchase everything they need/want. Where people have no control over what they produce, and cannot, not produce, And a market and system most people dont really understand, its almost a natural occurence that mercantile focused people will dominate.

there is a ton of uneducated, uninterested, accidental suppliers, and a just as many buyers with little knowledge and a lot desire, what do you think is going to be the result?

Behellagh.1468:

Thank you phys, you’ve now made it quite clear that to you anyone placing a sell order or a bid are exploiters since they are seeking to maximize their earnings or minimize their costs because nobody knows what the true value is. Also the true value is always changing. Therefore unless both parties negotiate a price before hand, which they can’t do using a third party mechanism like the TP, then one is likely exploiting the other.

Therefore the whole notion of the TP is exploitative in nature. That the only players who aren’t exploiting are the ones who always sell to high big and buy from low seller since they’re being exploited by the bidders and and sellers.

Items have a real value, most of them do, you can break them down into what they can create, and what value those items have. They also have a value in terms of how you obtain them/how many you can obtain. I can break black lion keys down to how much they are worth (i have) I can break mithril down into what its worth (relative to making rares) i can tell when tier 5 is overpriced, and when teir 6 is underpriced. When you play the mercantile game, you start to see the real value of almost every item, you can even tell how much cheap blues are worth to break down for luck. Whats a good value for crystaline dust etc. In general a lot of these items value is close to correct, even though it usually comes from a top down value representation that comes back to legendaries, (and now some ascended)

How most people will use the TP is in general exploitive. I have exploited people, i remember at some points i made profit on things i could simply change to another form, and get like 20% returns. I have placed buy orders for materials that were undervalued and salvaged them to turn around and sell them. I dabbled in straight flipping, but its a little too far to the exploit for me, i cant even tell myself i am doing them any service.

But i dont trick myself into thinking im not taking advantage. I dont tell my self the people who sell to me have inferior intellegience etc. And to be honest, if there was a more mutually beneficial system, i would work with that.

That said, i didnt have to be exploitive, just using the TP, i could have stayed away from those trades, and focused on ones where i was actually providing a service (sometimes i was) I could have only placed buy orders that represented a value – what i felt i should make on the transaction.

But yeah, i didnt, playing nice is ineffecient, its a cold world, and while i didnt really like it too much, i needed to get that cash for that legendary. With the way the tp is set up, most of the easy profits come not from providing items (because items are generally in abundance) but from capturing the ineffeciencies of other players. The mistakes in values, how are they supposed to know what all sources for this item is, and how much its really worth in terms of other items/time. They just picked it up off a monster.

But see, this is the philosophy of the tp player, and its very different from the philosophy of an open worlder, WvW player (within their server) dungeon runner etc. You really cant profit from other people getting less in any other mode. On the the tp this is the norm, and with that generally comes a more mercenary outlook.

a difference in philosophy

Smooth Penguin.5294:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Ok, so you quoted a dictionary. Now please tell me what is the “reward” from the TP? Where is your recognition of service, effort, or achievement?

You put time and gold (<— efford) into the TP and get gold as reward if you’re successful.

No, you just described Profit

“Profit: money that is made in a business, through investing, etc., after all the costs and expenses are paid : a financial gain”

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/profit

Reward includes profit. Profit describes the financial gain of a business, reward describes the gain of anything for doing anything. Still, they can be compared. You do stuff and you get stuff based on the stuff you did.

Aha! But in an MMO, the “Reward” is drops and acquired wealth via content. “Profit” is from trading those “Rewards” on the TP for a positive gain.

Understand now?

Quick edit – You feel like you should have the same access to Rewards from drops, as we do with Profits from the TP. Taking that into account, do you feel that it’s fair that Steve Jobs made hundreds of millions of dollars selling iPads, while John Doe made minimum wage working at McDonalds crafting burgers?

lol, you i sometimes wonder if you know what you present to world. I assume so. John Doe is minium wage working for profit the same way Steve Jobs is, its just steve jobs is a lot better at it.

There is no qualitative difference between steve jobs work and what he gained versus minimum wage work man and his gains other than the magnitude of the gains.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Ayrilana.1396:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

In the spirit of the debate at hand, can someone tell me the current price for Venom, the Precursor for Kraitkin?

lol

You know they’re going to shrug it off when they see the price and say it doesn’t matter.

He can shrug it off all he wants, but it counters his claim that Precursor prices are broken.

Or, it just shows that underwater combat/content is not loved

Behellagh.1468:

You didn’t answer my questions phys. Is a player seeking to make the most on a sale, exploiting buyers. Not talking flippers, just sellers. Again with buyers, are buyers seeking to spend the least exploiting sellers?

Making the most on a sale is not exploitive if you feel it is the true value. However if you feel it isn’t that valuable, it is.

For example if I sell something on ebay for list price, that o believe is broken or damaged I’m exploiting the buyer.
If I’m an aethiest selling jesus rocks to christians, I’m exploiting them.

However if I’m trying to get how much I think an item is worth, I’m not exploiting.

If I say my company,s car is worth 20,000 dollars because it lasts 20 years with no repairs, then I decrease mt costs with more effecient manufacturing, its still worth 20k, and I am trying to maximize my profit = not exploit
If I try to maximize my profit by making it last 10 years and charge the same I am exploiting people.

To be clear here self interest and exploitation are expected parts of capitalist theory. Everyone actively trying to take advantage of each other is supposed to cancel itself out. I’m not saying anything revolutionary here

Behellagh.1468:

In the rest of the game, your rewards are independent of the player next to you. You both bonk the same critter on the head, you both get RNG “rolls” on the reward table and the similar amount of XP.

The TP is players interacting with each other. phys, you love tossing the word “exploit” around (definition in your use: benefit unfairly from the work of (someone), typically by overworking or underpaying them) but in a market where every player can set their own prices for how much they want for selling X or buying Y, how can one player exploit another?

This is a PoV issue. Is a player selling an item for more than others, exploiting the buyer if a buyer chooses to buy it from them? Or is the player selling the item simply maximizing his income? Is a player buying an item for less than others exploiting the seller if a seller chooses to sell to them? Or is the player buying simply getting a good deal?

It’s how you answer those questions that then where the disconnect comes when you combine those two activities. If it’s okay to maximize your sales income and minimize the costs of your purchases then why is it bad to do both with the same item? In market economics it’s assumed that all the players in the market have the same self interest at heart. Everyone is trying to maximize their income while trying to minimize their costs.

And that’s the heart of the problem some people with flippers. Because a segment of the TP users aren’t trying to maximize their income while minimizing their costs, an opportunity arises for someone else to take up their slack. But is the flipper exploiting those who aren’t interested in using the TP to its full potential?

Player A sells ori ore for 5s to the high bidder. Player B buys ori ore for 6s from the low seller. As long as the high bidder and low seller are two different players, there isn’t a problem for some. However if they are then this Player C is making 10c off of the trades Player A and B are making. To Player A and B, there is no change in their income or cost if there were two different players at the other end of the transaction or the same player, but because it’s the same player, Player C is labeled a filthy exploiter of the masses because he made a profit off if it. That doesn’t work in my book unless you are willing to label the two players who are buying Player A’s ore and selling to Player B in the first scenario exploiters as well for not offering more or selling for less.

well, people dont like the idea of the word exploit because it feels bad. but yeah there is a lot of exploitation/self interest etc on the TP. It is supposed to form the invisible hand that guides it to equilibrium.

So while you may feel bad about it, yes, any time you seek to gain, by giving someone else less than you believe whatever they do/make/own is worth, you are exploiting them.

Yes, exploitation is a primary driving force in this system(and often in the real world).

Yes, most people need to have a philosophy that exploiting people isnt bad, and its the persons own fault in order to do business successfully without feeling like an ahole.

But really, be objective
if your friend finds a gold rock, and thinks it brass, and you know this and offer him 10 dollars for it, are you not exploiting him?

If one of your friends puts an ad up that they will pay 1000 dollars for a singer to come sing at a show, and you tell your other friend you will give him 400 dollars to sing at this show, are you not exploiting them?

a non exploitive business deal involves both parties trying to pay the value they think something is worth, they may disagree, or compromise, but they both think the value is right. In the case of the flipper this isnt the case, they cannot claim they thought they were giving a good value, because their business is to find the things they know are worth more, and sell them.

how you choose to feel about it is a question of philosophy/what you think is right etc, but the fact remains, if you are gaining, by giving people less than you believe something is worth, you are exploiting them.

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

I guess, this is the way trading has to be, however, i think other games solution, is to have pve also be a viable means of obtaining your wants/needs. Then you have like a pvp economy, and a pve economy.

This game has no need of separate economies because Spvp is in its own bubble, thankfully. And I am glad you are finally realizing that this is how trading has to be or you run into the very real issue of unfairly unbalancing the economy(which is very well balanced since everyone has the same tools to work with outside of easily attainable capital)

But I disagree with your assessment of PvE is not a viable means of obtaining your wants/there are no needs in this game, as has been mentioned previously. The only thing anyone needs to participate in end game content is exotic gear which is easily attainable in a variety of stat combinations from the dungeon token vendors.

needs in this case would be the needs for minimal satisfaction before becoming not viable. Just like in relationship, you have needs, but they arent strictly needs, you wont die if you dont get it, however, the relationship may die if you dont get it. Likewise this game will die for a player, if they dont get their needs taken care of.

Even if you choose to ignore this description of needs, there is still wants, and PVE does not give you a feasible method of obtaining most things through pve directly. I was playing the game when the TP wasnt working(opening days), and i will tell you, you could never get the materials to craft to the level you were playing at without the TP. You also had destroy a ton of drops, and you would never be in level appropriate gear of your choosing/chosen stats. Trust that this game is designed to be virtually impossible/painful to get most specific items without using the TP.

and i when i refer to the pvp economy, i mean the TP, not spvp. The tp is a player versus player environment, and a large section of people dont even realize it. They assume everything is fair, and makes sense, which is not always true. I had to tell people not to craft their gear, even though they had the materials, after calculating the cost myself (before gw2spidy and others added this app) because sometimes, the item was worth substantially less the basic materials, which goes against common wisdom. The person who knows these things has a substantial advantage when competing with others.

As far as the economy, it isnt really balanced at all, however it is working, and the barrier to entry into the player versus player trading is pretty low.
I say its not balanced because 90% of activities, do not, and will never perform similarly to the TP merchanting playstyle.

Its fair, but its not balanced. Everyone can choose to play the tp merchant when they need money, but balanced would imply there were many ways to achieve the same success, which isnt really true.

Aidan Savage.2078:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

So players should educate themself, otherwise its their own fault.

Yes. Instead of whining and crying that “i haz no monies” you should be spending more time understanding your own market behavior to realize what you need to change to make more money yourself instead of allowing others to make more money by your own shortsightedness. For starters, if you’re always selling to buy orders, you’re losing 5-50% of the money you’d made if you had put up a sell listing. That sell listing doesnt even have to match or undercut by 1c, but can be 10s-10g undercutting depending on how valuable the item is.

Guess what happens when you correct your market behavior over time? Players like wanze finally have serious competition to making money on the TP. The only reason they make so much money that evon’s wealth looks more pitiful than a piggy bank full of change is because players like you cannot provide competition. Well, let me correct that: players like you will not provide competition. Mostly because an ingrained pattern of “BUY NOW” and “SELL NOW” that means those like wanze end up making money of you. You know what? Working as intended. And that’s not even getting into the discussion of how such a mentality is more or less market destructive and working in direct opposition to the end result that flippers and speculators are working towards.

See this illustrates the difference in philosophy in each game mode, the other game modes are inclusive, and its pretty hard to work against each other. In the tp its victimize or be a victim.

And on a side note, this points out the big flaw with these type of systems. They are guided by self interest/competition/information. They dont perform with the balance intended if a signifigant portion of the people are not acting in those manners.

but this comes back to a strong difference in philosophy. The rest of the game is built for people who cooperate, selflessness is built in.

I guess, this is the way trading has to be, however, i think other games solution, is to have pve also be a viable means of obtaining your wants/needs. Then you have like a pvp economy, and a pve economy.

Wanze.8410:

Aberrant.6749:

How does binding your mouse wheel stop you from needing to re-enter the bids?

That lego device… doesn’t sound “legal” since it’s not you actually doing it.

I still don’t see the vast majority of people doing this legit. That’s far too trusting of the type of gamer that would go around doing these things.

There actually is a latency between clicking the Button for posting your bid the first time and the amount value of your bid resetting, so you can order multiple stacks, if you click fast enough. Manually, i usually can order between 8-12 stacks with fast leftclicks before amount and value reset and i have to reenter them. With left click bound to mouse wheel, i get up to 40 stacks (10k buy orders) before i have to type in 250 into the amount window again. That only takes a couple of seconds.

About the lego device, its not a program or macro and it performs single key strokes for each action, perfectly legal. If i would want to go crazy in buy orders, i would attach the counter wheel that turns my mouse wheel ton electric drill, which has a way higher rpm than a lego motor.

just to be clear, i dont think anet cares if you make a machine that presses the button for you, or a program does it. They can ban you for either case

darkace.8925:

Imagine if random caves had rich ore veins that weren’t marked on the mini-map.

some places actually do have this mechanic. But its sort of random, and less common in the higher level zones (probably because they have less nodes)

Ensign.2189:

phys.7689:

I think both of you have hit on the truth, the tp is pvp, Market cooperation/ altruism/ etc is largely against its design.

You’re getting cynical. All trade is cooperative, and real positive sum – people make trades because they value what they are getting over what they are giving up. People have heterogeneous preferences and trade makes everyone better off.

See i thought about that, and i think in can be true. I think that definately once you embrace certain philosophies, it makes you see things a certain way.

But regardless what lens you paint it as, there is a lot of PVP in trading here. You are a seller, competing with other sellers, you are a buyer competing with other buyers, you are a merchant competing with other merchants. In pve? in most cases, im not competing with any one, it doesnt matter if Jimmy hits that node before me, it doesnt matter if some one else is killing the same champion. etc.

Now, im not saying competition is bad, i actually like some competition in some places. It can also be used as incentives and etc. But it is definately a contrast from other game facets.

See the way i see it, some people see it as competition, and some do not, but the people who do not, are usually the ones taking the loss. It seems to me (and this may be due to my upbringing within such a system) That it is pvp, and many people dont realize it, so are therefore the ones that the other people get profit from while reducing what they themselves get. the interesting part about it, is that many dont care, because they arent playing that game. UNTIL they get to a certain level, and they start competing for the same resources, then a whole bunch of different perspecitives clash, and people get upset

I actually think it would be better if the TP was more of an opt in only endeavor, and wasnt required by design.

Vol.7601:

It’s pretty much impossible to reward it the same as everything else. How do you balance the X chests in game with dungeons or WvW? Heck, there still is a pretty hard way of balancing more popular stuff like dungeon running and WvW.

As aluded to above, the best thing they can do is merely reward stuff that has no affect on the economy. They could release bound skins or other special items, like mini’s, tonics, or even reward a set of titles.

not that i think it should, but it would be pretty easy with a testing phase. Some people used to do empyreal runs, You get some testers, or you look at the data some of them collated, that gives you an idea of the max speed/average speed of hitting multiple chests, then you can adjust the rewards to be in line with that as compared to other methods, like EoTM dungeon running etc. Its actually easier, and more consistent because there are shortest routes, and less fights. Less variables essentially.

lets say intermediate explorer person, after knowing the good routes, and learning the areas can hit 25 chests in an hour once a day per charachter, you can adjust it so that this gives 4 gold an hour, and assorted other items with some greens blues, etc.
25 would be 16 silver per chest in this case. Of course this is simplified, they have different teirs of chests, so lets say some would give like 4 silver, and some would give like 20.

anyhow this is just rough math, i dont actually remember how many chests i could hit in an hour, it may have been a lot more than 25. Point is, it would probably not be that hard to balance, with some testing.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Fyrebrand.4859:

If you don’t like the items you got, then sell them, or salvage them into materials and essences of luck. Then use your materials to craft something better, or sell the materials and make a decent chunk of change.

That’s not the point. It’s not that I don’t like what I get from the chests. It’s that I don’t like what I know I’m going to get from the chests. See the title of the thread, guaranteed zero rewards.

So lets say, to properly incentivize this type of play…
you have a standard reward
chest give special explorer tokens (As vol suggested)

and a non standard reward. Various dynamic events (of many different design types, not all kill type events)that are in different areas each day, each with a small narrative that makes sense for the hidden area. These events give a noticeable karma boost, and some special rewards, like orichalcum, gossamer, dungeon tokens, badges of honor,fractal relics, more explorer tokens, achievement points in small doses, depending on which events you find. As well sometimes just something different or weird pop up in these areas, that may have no reward, but are interesting. Like sometimes there is a magical disappearing cat in that area behind the waterfall, sometimes there is a dynamic event where some one is looking for clues to the mythical cat. etc

With the explorer token you can buy things like PVE explorer utilities (designed around things explorers might want, like fall dmg, mesmer portal like utilities for 1 player, swiftness boosts, etc.
Unlocks for special explorer quests, with side stories. titles, some interesting cosmetics, hats/glass/backpacks/ whatever.

Vol.7601:

So what exactly do you want at the end of the cave? Precursor? 5g?

i actually hunted a bunch of chests, when i was trying out ascended, i didnt do dungeons at that time, because friends werent doing them.

anyhow, turns out, hunting chests, takes a bit of skill/time, at least when you are hunting a lot of them. It was actually pretty fun.

to be honest they could buff rewards on chests pretty greatly, and it wouldnt be OP

1) right now they are once a day per charachter
2) they generally take time to get to

See thing you got to realize, is the max gold making is so far above chest hunting, that chest hunting is a joke in comparison.
And then mathematically, you can say, it really doesnt matter if chests give as much as the max farm (when done at highest effeciency) because this is just a player option.
So essentially it doesnt matter if chest hunting gave as much as EOTM trains Dynamic event trains champion trains, or dungeon runs.

point is;
i dont think having better rewards from exploration (even if it isnt chest related) would really effect the market very much other than giving people options, it doesnt matter on if people what people are doing if the effeciency is the same.

However, just rewarding it the same as everything else is kind of generic and boring

tekfan.3179:

Wanze.8410:

tekfan.3179:

…

…

Getting back to your comparison of the TP and the social, altruistic behaviour that is promoted by Anet in most other content:
Of course it doesnt compare very well.
But the TP in its nature is “Player vs Player”, not “Player vs Enviroment”.
And people would go to great lengths to get an advantage over their enemies in wvw.
Using the most OP builds to gank 3v1 on an upleveled enemy, spamming enviromental weapons (when they werent disabled in the early days), spying on enemy TS, siege griefing to outright hacking.

WvW, in most scenarios isnt either fair nor balanced, how does that in your opinion compare to the TP?

Of course, sPvP and WvW are competitive, yet inside your team/server the altruistic mechanics remain the same.
People who hack…I don’t think we argue in that regard.

As to the difference I see:
Follow the map-chat in Lions Arch for a day. You will see that there are pure PvP- and pure PvE-guilds recruiting.
People want to play, some of them go into a dungeon or fractal, others roam the borders or jump in a match in the mists.
It’s a choice wether you like to engage in PvE or PvP.
The Black Lion Trading Post is the market. Aside from farming them yourself(which can be tedious for cloth, let me tell you that ) or counting on the laurel-boxes with randomized content to give you what you need, the TP is the only way to trade.
There is no direct trading with players where you don’t risk a scam, or the Material-NPC’s of Guild Wars 1 as another trading-instance, just the Black Lion trading post, which you defined as PvP yourself.
In a way the BLTC is forced PvP, therefore also differing from the rest of Guild Wars 2.

I think both of you have hit on the truth, the tp is pvp, Market cooperation/ altruism/ etc is largely against its design.
You really have no choice but to take part in it, you get too many unintended items, and you have very little means of getting anything directly without comparitively large grind.

A players working together philosophy
vs
Players working against each other philosophy

hmm i wonder if there was any other way it could have played out.

“purely as a mind experiment, can any one think how they could have made the market more as a player versus world system? Hmmm”

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I don’t know why we would be looking forward to something Ree is working on, or how Bobby would know what it is, if it is for another company….lol.

But, take it as you will.

could be a different game for the same company

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

eithinan.9841:

Kill stealing. This has been brought up and I was wondering if the people who are not in zerk gear and grouped in a party of 5 are being exploited by people who are during farm events like the CS gates of arah or when scarlet invaded last year. The ungrouped unzerk people may not get full rewards because they didnt tag the champ or mobs hard enough.

This is an example of knowledgeable people getting better rewards than others for participating in the same game element.

yeah, and anet said this is not an intended consequence, its one of the reasons the reduced the requirement % hp wise to get credit and had to do a fix to make sure the gain exp threshold was the same as the get loot threshold. They said that claiming hits wise this was the best they can do right now, because they cant track other ways of participation that well.

Point is, its not that it doesnt happen, but rather that it is not encouraged, and is actively against the design philosophy(for that part of the game). This is a bit different from the tp, which generally takes a laissez faire buyer beware stance.

Thing is, i dont know that there are too many other ways to handle the market. However I may be limited by my upbringing in a similar system.

What about in WvW and support classes. Anet has proven over time they only reward DPS so I guess all the support Guardians, Ele’s etc are being exploited by the DPS.

like your other case, anet said that they want to change that, but they dont have the means to track much besides DPS and attendance. Its actually a big problem in WvW, because they cant incentize defense, and specific tasks, like spotting, support builds, and dolyak supply runs, etc.

But like i said, they acknowledge these are issues, and they hope to come up with the some better solutions to these issues. Point is, they have actively said that it is not how they envision these things working, and if they can come up with some better solutions, they intend to implement it.

Similar cases of altruistic behavior are not even within the scope of possibilities within the TP. Mostly because few people believe anyone would make use of anything in a trade that would not directly benefit themselves, or be exploited by others.

Can you imagine,
like a donation tab for people to give items to newbies, or builds with special item reqs? An ability to choose to sell to a higher buy order if you feel someone has entered an undercutter war/etc
These things to me sound highly improbable, and even if they were there, i think its fairly probable they would be exploited.

However, when you look at the other game modes, i have seen people giving away items in map chat, you look at WvW, people spend their own time/money on supply traps/catapults, people calling for others to give out feasts, communities throwing events, and doing give aways. People going out of their way to res people, etc. People joining/starting story missions to help lowbies/alts

So while it may seem crazy to me in some cases, there is definately a difference in philosophy from other game modes to the TP.

kind of interesting really.

eithinan.9841:

Kill stealing. This has been brought up and I was wondering if the people who are not in zerk gear and grouped in a party of 5 are being exploited by people who are during farm events like the CS gates of arah or when scarlet invaded last year. The ungrouped unzerk people may not get full rewards because they didnt tag the champ or mobs hard enough.

This is an example of knowledgeable people getting better rewards than others for participating in the same game element.

yeah, and anet said this is not an intended consequence, its one of the reasons the reduced the requirement % hp wise to get credit and had to do a fix to make sure the gain exp threshold was the same as the get loot threshold. They said that claiming hits wise this was the best they can do right now, because they cant track other ways of participation that well.

Point is, its not that it doesnt happen, but rather that it is not encouraged, and is actively against the design philosophy(for that part of the game). This is a bit different from the tp, which generally takes a laissez faire buyer beware stance.

Thing is, i dont know that there are too many other ways to handle the market. However I may be limited by my upbringing in a similar system.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Ensign.2189:

Seriously? We’re talking about people paying 8-10% more for items as exploitation? I pay a much larger premium when I buy groceries from the corner store instead of making a trip out to a big box.

If you think the difference between buy and sell spreads is why players can’t afford the shiniest of shinies you are delusional.

you are assuming a lot, this thread is about the philosophy of this sub forum/tp players/tp, and how differing philosophies are one of the reasons for the disconnect and beef between players.

A lot of people are assuming this is specific thread is about saying that they are wrong, or evil, thats up to the each person to decide, but what we are, or should be discussing, is the type of philosophy people have, and how that may be different than the philosophies of other modes. What are the benefits of each philosophy? how does a certain philosophy effect the interaction between different groups? etc.

The last time i checked the OP, it was about the question if the BLTC fits into the social design of the game, not about philosophies of certain players or this subforum.

It just has gone off topic quite fast.

hmm you might be right, he may have only mentioned peoples personal philosophies an example.

i wonder if he means the philosophy behind its design, or the philosophy that it engenders in people who interact with it a lot.

Ensign.2189:

Seriously? We’re talking about people paying 8-10% more for items as exploitation? I pay a much larger premium when I buy groceries from the corner store instead of making a trip out to a big box.

If you think the difference between buy and sell spreads is why players can’t afford the shiniest of shinies you are delusional.

you are assuming a lot, this thread is about the philosophy of this sub forum/tp players/tp, and how differing philosophies are one of the reasons for the disconnect and beef between players.

A lot of people are assuming this is specific thread is about saying that they are wrong, or evil, thats up to the each person to decide, but what we are, or should be discussing, is the type of philosophy people have, and how that may be different than the philosophies of other modes. What are the benefits of each philosophy? how does a certain philosophy effect the interaction between different groups? etc.

Behellagh.1468:

phys.7689:

exploitation may sound like a bad word to you, but it basically means you are profiting by giving people less value than they should be getting. That basically is the main premise of TP flipping. Whether its good or bad, or serves a purpose or whatever, it is what is.

But all a TP flipper is doing is putting up an offer to buy goods at X. It’s up to the seller to accept that or price it at what they think it’s worth. There is no barrier for entering a price the seller thinks is fairer other than the few seconds it takes to type it in. I know because that’s how I sell all of my drops.

Now either they choose ease, just clicking sell, over even selecting to match the current low sell price and clicking sell; which takes much less time and effort than entering their own price and clicking sell. Maybe they are in a hurry. Maybe they don’t see the point of making a few copper/silver more on each sale. Same with the case for buying.

I think I’m starting to understand your position phys, and it’s not because the Tylenol is wearing off. You think that the flipper, knowingly offering to buy at a price below he could sell at is exploiting the players he is buying from. First of all they are selling to him, the choice was theirs, the flipper did not seek them out. Second, without being able to turn a profit, the flipper would not be offering to buy in the first place. That means that only players looking to use the item will be placing bids but we’ve established that many players, for whatever reason, don’t choose to do so and rather buy from the current low seller. So who becomes the “winner” now? Why it’s those players who bother to use the TP in the way it was envisioned, by placing sell orders for the things they don’t want and buy orders for the stuff they do. They will now be the “exploiters” due to their “skill” of using the non-default options on the TP interface.

So is that the problem? Is the fact the TP suggests sell to high bidder and buy from low seller as default? Maybe there shouldn’t be a default if the problem with flippers are the users who are their suppliers and customers. Reinforce the fact that it’s their choice and not the easiest/quickest way to get back to play. But I suspect the uproar created by forcing the choice would either insist that it should be returned to the way it was or have an option to set what the default should be.

And in the end we would have return to an inefficient marketplace where goods are sold for less than they are worth.

you are mistaken assuming that because people are willing participants they are not being exploited. Most of the time when someone is being exploited, its willingly. Its not till later that they realize it was not in their own best interest, some people never realize, doesnt change the reality.

yeah its exploitation, but capitalism is guided by exploitation, the idea is that every one is trying to exploit each other, that every thing will come into balance. The idea is that all the people ruled by greed/desire to exploit will compete until there is barely any gain, and thus people get the fair price, it happens for many items, but there is always the ones they miss, and the unknown markets, etc.

But you should be clear here, it is greed, self interest and desire to exploit others that forms the guiding hand.

laokoko.7403:

Quite honestly I learned so much from the GW2 economy… which could actually be applied to real life

(1) People who work the hardest are not necessary the people who get reward the most (farmers). The people who use their brain(investors, flippers, scammers, crafting multiboxers) are the richest people.

(2) The task that use your brain are actually painfully labor. I suppose I could use the brains like the other people. But I always resort to farming. Probably because using the brain actually is quite a painful thing to do. Everyone could use their brain to make money more efficiently, but many resort to take 9 to 5 jobs.

(3) If you want to invest, start early. Those people who invested the grimming shield are the richest people in GW2 now.

(4) short term flipping could pay off well. But long term investment/speculations (eg. real estate) are usually the sure winners, which almost pays the most.

(5) Never keep money. Invest in other things. Real life banks pays like 1-2% interest. GW2 dont’ even pay interest at all. And if you take inflation into consideration. It is better bet for you to put your money else where.

(6) If you want to get rich “use your brains”! People who work the hardest are not the one rewarding the most!

4) short term can pay pretty well, but its a lot more work, both is probably a good look
6) using your brains isnt exactly it, Most smart people dont get paid that well(comparitively), i think its more about ambition/desire

eithinan.9841:

For someone to be exploited they need to be taken advantage of. No one is taking advantage of people who choose to put items up for sale on the tp at buy now price. That is a choice the individual made. They could post it at buy now price or list it at any other price they choose.

Phys needs to understand the concept of personal responsibility.

phys.7689:

are you using them to profit? yes, are you using their labor while giving them less than they believe the items value is? NO.

I adjusted this quote to be what it should be. If the seller sold an item at buy now price they should be satisfied with the transaction, they had the option of putting in any price they wanted and chose to sell at the lowest one to sell it fast. You have a problem with other players(not the TP barons) using the tp as they wish, which is to get quick gold.

TP flippers do one thing and one thing only, they buy items from people at a price that sellers want to sell at and sell items(hopefully) to people willing to pay the price of their stock who dont want to wait for an order to come in.

Honestly there is a little bit of “survival of the fittest” happening, welcome to the planet earth because that is evident everywhere.

But with a comparably simple system like the bltc has(15% tax, choosing own price), at least it is fair for everyone.

so lets say someone has a gold brick, and they think its just a rock, and you buy it from them for 10 dollars, and they are happy, you would not consider that exploitation?

exploitation has nothing to do with willingness.

How many times have you heard some one say they were taken advantage of, against their will? that is not exploitation, that is extortion/robbery etc.

As for the social darwinism, there doesnt have to be exploitation for people to believe in it. But lets be honest, many people here do believe in it, that the strong should succeed and the weak should fail(socialy/economically/etc). Just know, that while you believe it to be just the way life is, there are actually a great many other philosophies that dont believe in that.

Now the poster is saying essentially the philosophy of many people in this sub forum, is very different from the philosophies designed into other facets of the game. Which i think is fairly accurate.

Behellagh.1468:

Thank heaven I took two extra strength Tylenol before coming here …

It’s not Social Darwinism. It’s the collective action of individual players in a system that strives to be economically efficient.

We have players who want either money for items they have and don’t want or items the want and are willing to exchange for money ASAP. They are willing, for whatever reason, not to maximize their income from selling or savings from buying if that means they will have to wait on the transaction. This creates an inefficiency in the market. Items are being sold for much less than others are willing to pay for them. That inefficiency creates a new market for those willing act as broker to close that gap. It creates the merchant, the warehouse, the distributor, the entity that gathers the undervalued items and provide a steady supply to a market that was already willing to pay more for those items.

Nobody is forcing players to sell at the high bid or buy from the low sell. Those who are filling this new market can’t lower the high bid or raise the low sell since there are other entities in the market to counter those movements. But the “popular” opinion is that these players are exploiting their fellow players by taking the money that the original sellers were willing to pass up on is a sad statement of how people have an unrealistic expectation on how things work. If those who are selling, unbeknownst to them to those exploitative flippers, are asked how do they like to be exploited, most likely they don’t feel they’ve been exploited at all. Same is true with the buyers because the option is always there to sell for more or buy for less and those doing the selling and buying chose, for whatever reason, not too.

The real problem some people are having is simple jealousy over the amount of money that a player could earn if they devout the time necessary to spot the inefficient item markets, they are always changing, and take advantage of them. It’s not buy A at X and sell for Y every day. Most common items with high trading volume can’t be flipped as their gap is to narrow and the priced fluctuates to little to create a profit opportunity. Finding a profitable niche that you ckittene indefinitely doesn’t exist.

exploitation very rarely forces anyone to do anything, maybe you are thinking of extortion.

Many people who are exploited have no idea they are being exploited, that usually makes it easier.

How long you can exploit people, or how hard/tricky it is to exploit them is irrelveant to the exploitation.

exploitation may sound like a bad word to you, but it basically means you are profiting by giving people less value than they should be getting. That basically is the main premise of TP flipping. Whether its good or bad, or serves a purpose or whatever, it is what is.

Now, the TP isnt really social darwinism, the people who mock/ridicule look down upon the people who they profit from, who say people are foolish, and should for those reasons be exploited, and they need to learn how to play the TP or shut up, And that this is the natural order of things, etc, exhibit behaviors consistent with social darwinism.

Now, i dont know how i feel about that, i do in fact feel that you cant protect people from themselves completely, and i accept that the people who study something and put in specific effort will probably be better at it. On the other side i think that whats best for the overall population, and overall game design may be more important than a realistic competitive economy in a game.

However, something is what it is, One of the prevalent philosophies here is one of a social dawarnism. Its what they call the philosophy many people in this sub forum exhibit. This does not mean this is everyone, but its common here. Many people celebrate social darwinism and believe in it, its not really a bad word, but it is what it is.

it probably said something around 80 gold.
projected profit shows you what you would get -10%

the real problem i would say is that doesnt include the 5% they will take directly.

anyhow at the end of the day you can expect to lose 15% off any successful sale on the tp

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

Yea, basically the general philosophy of a bltc player, going by this sub forum, is about using the market to get as much as they can from everyone else. It is seen as a given that the bltc is pvp, and those that dont know how to play should be exploited for the benefit of those that do.

Yeah because we’re the ones that exploit players who choose to sell their goods at buy prices rather than sell prices. We’re also the ones that exploit players who choose to buy at sell prices rather than buy prices. Do you really not see how ridiculous that sounds?

yeah, thats exploiting them, taking full advantage of their careless behavior that doesnt accurately represent the value of what they are selling or buying

Most often, the word exploitation is used to refer to economic exploitation; that is, the act of using another person as a means to one’s profit, particularly using their labor without offering or providing them fair retribution.

are you using them to profit? yes, are you using their labor while giving them less than you believe the items value is? yes.

I dont really think you have any problem with exploitation, you just dont like how the word makes you feel.
you can take out the word exploit, and instead put, “take full advantage of” if you want.

heres the question dont you believe that its players own faults if they arent making full use of the economy? dont you think its ok for you to profit from them not being able to do so? Dont you feel that people who are good at the tp, should prosper, and people arent, should just learn to deal with the cards they have been dealt? Its not your problem, buyer beware, if they dont like it then they should become stronger. If they cant, its their own fault and they deserve what they get.

etc.

thats basically social darwinism, and its very popular, and many people believe its the way it should be, its also a philosophy that is not consistent with the game philosophies in other modes.

no