Guild Wars 2

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

A = B, B = C, therefore A = C is not a mathematical formula that I’m trying to use, mate. To further my explanation, I’ll use the following:
A = Sky
B = Blue
C = Ocean
The Sky is Blue. The Ocean is Blue. Therefore the Sky is the Ocean.

Nerelith’s fallacy is that he’s saying that Dr. Castronova believes the above to be true. It’s far from it. The real problem here is that Nerelith doesn’t understand the purpose of Dr. Castronova’s paper. He sees a smart man saying things, and misapplies them to something completely different. I could quote Einstein’s theory of relativity, but that does nothing to help my uncle reconnect with my aunt.

dodgycookies brought up a good point, that ties into my previous argument. Time does not equal Money, unless you can tie a money making opportunity to it. If I sit on the toilet for 8 hours while I’m at work, indeed those 8 hours were the monetary equivalent of my salary. But if I did that at home, those hours spent on the toilet at home is worth nothing.

These are not opinions, but hard facts. Converting Gold to Gems is free, at the cost of your Time (which as no monetary value).

Game. Set. Match.

the sky isnt blue
a proper understanding of the relationship would be
skys color is blue
oceans color is blue
oceans color is equal to skys color.

but even by your own understanding/relationships

your time is money, anet has figured out how to convert your time to money.
every time you sell your gems, the time money transference machine activates, and anet has turned your ingame time to real hard, usable money. This is not really a new conversion, it was known to exist since people were selling items on the net in EQ and ultima online.

you gold->gem sellers are basically just gold sellers who work for anet, and all the time you spend is money for anet.

anet is the one who has figured out how to monetize your time playing the game, and in doing so they have cemented the time/money relationship.

yes even things you do for free, or dont realize have value, can have value. and in a monetary system that is doing its job, anything of value can be represented by money (though they do not always achieve this)

My time is worth money to Anet, because I actually buy Gems again and again. Anet makes no money if a player exchanges in game Gold for Gems.

As for time having monetary value, that can happen in the course of working a paying job. But in the sense of playing GW2 and converting Gold into Gems, that exchange is still free since you didn’t pay for it.

If you dont think people who create a good you can sell to other people arent making you money, i dont know what to tell you.

Anet makes money when you sell your gold, because they sell it to other players. If you did not create this gold, they could not sell it to other players.

I am a candy salesman, i find out there is demand for kids paintings. If i have kids making kid paintings, i sell for 5 dollars each, and i pay them in candy, their time, is my money. The more kids i have the more product i have to sell.
These kids time has a monetary value to me, i make money off of them.

I can now make money off of people who have no interest in candy, but do have interest in kids paintings. Those kids time, is money to me.

this is similar to the relationship of gold/gems gold ->gem sellers.

The Gem Exchange makes no money for Anet. It’s a convenience that allows us to access virtual currencies for either Gold -> Gems or Gems -> Gold. The money comes from players like me who actually purchase Gems with my creditcard or store bought Gem cards.

As as for your example, that doesn’t apply to this issue. You’re describing a situation where the children’s time now has a monetary value, because the paintings were made during the course of employment. So the paintings were not “free” for you. This actually ties into my arguments made previously.

Again, I’ll repeat this fact – exchanging Gold for Gems is free.

exchanging gem for gold is free, is irrelevant, just like exchanging candy for paintings is free is irrelevant to the fact that the kids time has a monetary value, because i am selling their paintings.

Anet is selling their gold, the moment they trade their gold for gems, they have entered an employment situation with anet. Anet will now take their gold, and sell it to a player who had little to no interest in the other cash shop items at that point.

they are the workers who create the product that anet can sell, therefore their work has a monetary value. to the tune of 15 cents per gold traded, thats what anet makes in real money right now, when someone buys gems to turn to gold.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Rouven.7409:

You guys argue about concepts, not facts.

I feel transported back into philosophy class, if a tree falls in the woods and no one heard it, did it make a noise?

The Geico commercial I saw last week had the tree screaming for help. So yes, the tree does make a noise. Tree falling

Side note – my arguments are actually based on the fact that an individual’s time has no monetary value. There are only a few exception to this rule, as has been debated in this thread.

your time in this game, that you use to get gems does have a monetary value, i can tell you right now.
right now, if you can make 10 gold an hour, the value of your time, as defined by anets money machine is. $1.50 an hour
1 gold cost 15 cents.

every person who can make 10 gold an hour, and changes that 1 hours worth of gold to gems gets anet 1.50 cents. Thats money they only get because people are willing to sell their time to anet.

so yeah, your time making gold isnt worth very much, unless you are a tp overlord, but it is worth something.

Point is, anet has already monetized your time, this is not a case of your time has no value unless you are at work. You are at work, you just didnt know it. You are on the videogame “toilet” making money for anet when you sell gold.

its not indirect, its as direct as a gold selling company making money off people they make farm money for them (back in the day before it was all bots)

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

A = B, B = C, therefore A = C is not a mathematical formula that I’m trying to use, mate. To further my explanation, I’ll use the following:
A = Sky
B = Blue
C = Ocean
The Sky is Blue. The Ocean is Blue. Therefore the Sky is the Ocean.

Nerelith’s fallacy is that he’s saying that Dr. Castronova believes the above to be true. It’s far from it. The real problem here is that Nerelith doesn’t understand the purpose of Dr. Castronova’s paper. He sees a smart man saying things, and misapplies them to something completely different. I could quote Einstein’s theory of relativity, but that does nothing to help my uncle reconnect with my aunt.

dodgycookies brought up a good point, that ties into my previous argument. Time does not equal Money, unless you can tie a money making opportunity to it. If I sit on the toilet for 8 hours while I’m at work, indeed those 8 hours were the monetary equivalent of my salary. But if I did that at home, those hours spent on the toilet at home is worth nothing.

These are not opinions, but hard facts. Converting Gold to Gems is free, at the cost of your Time (which as no monetary value).

Game. Set. Match.

the sky isnt blue
a proper understanding of the relationship would be
skys color is blue
oceans color is blue
oceans color is equal to skys color.

but even by your own understanding/relationships

your time is money, anet has figured out how to convert your time to money.
every time you sell your gems, the time money transference machine activates, and anet has turned your ingame time to real hard, usable money. This is not really a new conversion, it was known to exist since people were selling items on the net in EQ and ultima online.

you gold->gem sellers are basically just gold sellers who work for anet, and all the time you spend is money for anet.

anet is the one who has figured out how to monetize your time playing the game, and in doing so they have cemented the time/money relationship.

yes even things you do for free, or dont realize have value, can have value. and in a monetary system that is doing its job, anything of value can be represented by money (though they do not always achieve this)

My time is worth money to Anet, because I actually buy Gems again and again. Anet makes no money if a player exchanges in game Gold for Gems.

As for time having monetary value, that can happen in the course of working a paying job. But in the sense of playing GW2 and converting Gold into Gems, that exchange is still free since you didn’t pay for it.

If you dont think people who create a good you can sell to other people arent making you money, i dont know what to tell you.

Anet makes money when you sell your gold, because they sell it to other players. If you did not create this gold, they could not sell it to other players.

I am a candy salesman, i find out there is demand for kids paintings. If i have kids making kid paintings, i sell for 5 dollars each, and i pay them in candy, their time, is my money. The more kids i have the more product i have to sell.
These kids time has a monetary value to me, i make money off of them.

I can now make money off of people who have no interest in candy, but do have interest in kids paintings. Those kids time, is money to me.

this is similar to the relationship of gold/gems gold →gem sellers.

Rouven.7409:

Haha, quick someone make a headline: “Free Online Games Exploiting Youth*”.

Ah well, at least I’m getting “somthing”. Other MMOs charged me for working for them and didn’t let me raid alone either.

* just sounds better

Edit: It’s true btw, I’m totally adding value to the City I’m living in and they also only charge for this and that instead of saying thank you and paying me, sigh.

exploiting is a strong word, its an exchange, sometimes exchanges are mutually beneficial.
whether it is or not probably varies person to person and situation to situation.

but regardless of the word you want to put to it, gold→gems makes anet money. which means activities that allow this to happen have a monetary value.

Smith.1826:

phys.7689:

Smith.1826:

GW1 was questionably and reasonably balanced pre-Factions, it most certainly wasn’t afterwards. All of the newer professions attempted to fill niches that the preexisting six already had and didn’t really introduce a whole lot mechanically (I wouldn’t count the assassin’s potential to ignore positioning much of a “plus”).

This was made all the more frustrating by the fact that it was still the most fun and some of the most unique PvP I’ve ever experienced in an RPG.

just because you didnt like the other jobs doesnt mean other people didnt.

Where’d that come from? I wasn’t talking about how much I liked or disliked them, or how much others liked/disliked them, I was talking about what they brought to the game. Aside from the visuals – which is still ANet’s greatest strength – they didn’t bring a whole lot.

phys.7689:

Also this whole balance thing is an illusion, it has never existed anywhere. Even fighting games who play test for months and refine for years still havie teirs. Its something you just attempt to do, and keep working towards. and in that respect, all you can really say is that gw1 attempted it way more often.

Also, going by most people i have seen gw1 pvp was more respected, and enjoyed. So what does that say about the importance of balance if you are correct about balance?

My post was merely stating that I felt GW1 was initially far more balanced than what it’s become. I’m not entirely sure where the rest of this commentary is coming from, though.

bleh i disagree, while i definately think, when they first came out these proffesions were unbalanced, i dont believe that as they worked on the balance they were unbalanced, or any more unbalanced than any one can hope to be with two different things.

As far as what they added? i can say that assassin and ritualist offered totally different playstyles which isnt a cosmetic thing, They rewarded different ways of thinking and natural ability tendencies, which is imo the point of new classes. What they added to the meta? well anet changed the meta a bunch of times, and the meta isnt even usually a representation of all the possibilities, its just the things people have currently found that works, and they like to use.

serapheles.5409:

I assume that they’ve checked the code for drops pretty closely, so anything that wasn’t very small would have been caught, and I would imagine it would be fairly simple for them to test that drops are working correctly.

i wouldnt assume anything of the sort, in fact assuming that the code for drops would be where problems would occur is a kittenumption.

That said here is what we do know.
Overall, whether it is fate, proper luck, bugs or not, Precursors drop very rarely, and there is never any guarantee that you will get one no matter how hard or how not hard you play.

No one will ever identify a bug, because overall, the distribution of precursors, whether some players are cursed or not, is still happening as they plan.
Even if the system worked well, there would be some players who would fall into the lucky side of things, and those who fall into the unlucky side.

the answer to the OP question, is it is not a function of time, it is a function of luck, and somewhat a function of focus.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Rising Dusk.2408:

phys.7689:

so what you are saying is that if you enjoy your job, it is no longer a job, and has no value? hmm, i know people see things this way, but the fact that people do is what allows business men to profit. but ehh thats life

The key difference is that my high-paying job isn’t a recreational activity. Sure, I do enjoy it a lot, and it hardly feels like work, but there are expectations, obligations, and responsibilities that go with it being a job and not a hobby. I play GW2 for fun, and it has value strictly for that reason. Even if I made no gold from it, I’d still do it, so that I do make gold (which lessens the dollar cost of gem store items) is essentially free compensation. Does that distinction make sense? I hope I’ve helped clarify.

if by some odd way i could make an infinite engine, and doing so was completely based on me doing some incredibly fun activity. That engine would still have economic value.
If i make car, strictly for my own enjoyment, it still has economic value.

Even if i would do it for free, that doesnt change the value it generates.

It has economic value, because you had to purchase the parts from a manufacturer. So the car was not free.

who says i have to purchase anything, i could make the car entirely of parts of other machines people payed me to take off their land. And my own skills with working metal/machining parts, and knowledge of engineering.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

A = B, B = C, therefore A = C is not a mathematical formula that I’m trying to use, mate. To further my explanation, I’ll use the following:
A = Sky
B = Blue
C = Ocean
The Sky is Blue. The Ocean is Blue. Therefore the Sky is the Ocean.

Nerelith’s fallacy is that he’s saying that Dr. Castronova believes the above to be true. It’s far from it. The real problem here is that Nerelith doesn’t understand the purpose of Dr. Castronova’s paper. He sees a smart man saying things, and misapplies them to something completely different. I could quote Einstein’s theory of relativity, but that does nothing to help my uncle reconnect with my aunt.

dodgycookies brought up a good point, that ties into my previous argument. Time does not equal Money, unless you can tie a money making opportunity to it. If I sit on the toilet for 8 hours while I’m at work, indeed those 8 hours were the monetary equivalent of my salary. But if I did that at home, those hours spent on the toilet at home is worth nothing.

These are not opinions, but hard facts. Converting Gold to Gems is free, at the cost of your Time (which as no monetary value).

Game. Set. Match.

the sky isnt blue
a proper understanding of the relationship would be
skys color is blue
oceans color is blue
oceans color is equal to skys color.

but even by your own understanding/relationships

your time is money, anet has figured out how to convert your time to money.
every time you sell your gems, the time money transference machine activates, and anet has turned your ingame time to real hard, usable money. This is not really a new conversion, it was known to exist since people were selling items on the net in EQ and ultima online.

you gold→gem sellers are basically just gold sellers who work for anet, and all the time you spend is money for anet.

anet is the one who has figured out how to monetize your time playing the game, and in doing so they have cemented the time/money relationship.

yes even things you do for free, or dont realize have value, can have value. and in a monetary system that is doing its job, anything of value can be represented by money (though they do not always achieve this)

Rising Dusk.2408:

phys.7689:

so what you are saying is that if you enjoy your job, it is no longer a job, and has no value? hmm, i know people see things this way, but the fact that people do is what allows business men to profit. but ehh thats life

The key difference is that my high-paying job isn’t a recreational activity. Sure, I do enjoy it a lot, and it hardly feels like work, but there are expectations, obligations, and responsibilities that go with it being a job and not a hobby. I play GW2 for fun, and it has value strictly for that reason. Even if I made no gold from it, I’d still do it, so that I do make gold (which lessens the dollar cost of gem store items) is essentially free compensation. Does that distinction make sense? I hope I’ve helped clarify.

if by some odd way i could make an infinite engine, and doing so was completely based on me doing some incredibly fun activity. That engine would still have economic value.
If i make car, strictly for my own enjoyment, it still has economic value.

Even if i would do it for free, that doesnt change the value it generates.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Wouldn’t it be an overall improvement though? The bosses would have Defiant based on the amount of CC used against them. The more CC you spam, the more Defiant. And indeed an individual player would be able to land his CC effectively, without the entire group being required to bring CC too. Isn’t that exactly what is needed? You remove a layer of coordination, in favor of a more flexible system and rewarding system.

One’s perspective on this issue is going to be very much determined by the capability of those one plays with. If playing with players who gravitate towards coordination, removing a layer of coordination is the last thing GW2 needs to do. If playing with players who gravitate towards chaos, then requirements for coordination become barriers.

The Champion Risen Lich and CR Wraith have been brought up in this thread. When the Life Transfer ability was added to this mob type during the Risen upgrade, there were a lot of complaints about this ability being OP. At that time, ANet made this particular ability easily interruptible (i.e., Defiant does not protect this particular skill from interruption).

After ANet made the change, I know I was able to interrupt this skill whether Defiant was up or not. Now, I haven’t fought one in a small group in a while, but I did Grenth over the weekend. A CRW spawns in the final event there, and its LT was interrupted. I’d be surprised if Anet changed this mob back, so I’m scratching my head over Otaur’s post.

What strikes me about open world herd bosses is that any mechanic that limits the amount of times one can CC is going to make interrupting problematic due to the chaotic nature of herd play. Perhaps providing some open world bosses with skills like Life Transfer which are both: easily interruptible; and really important to interrupt would be a middle ground. This would allow someone who plays intelligently in thierr use of CC to make that contribution without the herd being able to randomly CC every time a skill comes off CD.

last time i fought a champion wrait, a few months ago, you needed to strip defiant to interupt him. I specifically remember this.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Nerelith.7360:

Your opinion not fact. My opinion is that the only time anything in gw2 is free is if someone gives it to you as a gift. If you " farmed" or" did dungeons" or " did Champions" etc… and said time accrued Gold, which you then converted to gems, and with which you purchased something that can be puchased for real world cash, you have earned the real world cash it would have taken to purchase the virtual goods an services you purchased with in game gold.

Let’s say I play dungeons because I enjoy dungeons, I’m not grinding anything. Therefore I put time into dungeons as a recreational activity that I am enjoying, and happen to get gold out of it, which can then be converted into gems. This means that by enjoying the game at my own pace doing whatever it is that I want, I am being compensated real dollars that I now no longer have to spend to get fancy items off the gem store. That, to me, is free compensation for my time that enables me to better enjoy my time in-game, or in other words a gift like mtpelion stated.

so what you are saying is that if you enjoy your job, it is no longer a job, and has no value? hmm, i know people see things this way, but the fact that people do is what allows business men to profit. but ehh thats life

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Nerelith.7360:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Actually nerelith is correct, in high end terms. currency that is doing its job is actually a measure of effort/skill/knowledge/time/value.

from a perspective, you may be right, time is not literally=money

however, from that same perspective, dusk is not literally gold.
If i find dusk, did i find gold? If i keep dusk have i saved gold?
did dusk have no value once i equip it?

its a matter of perspective in some respects.

but the truth of time is that all effort/skill/knowledge/ etc you use has a value, ultimately in an economic system, its currency.

the key is figuring out what the value of that time is, depending what you are doing in that time frame.

ultimately, in this situation, your time has a monetary value, for anet. Anet is makes a certain amount of money, by allowing you to sell the fruits of your time to someone who wants that product.

For the player, it has a monetary value in terms of how much money you save, through these actions, and depending on the person, how much money you could make with that same time applied to something else.

In general though, time is money. The people who stay rich figure out how to transform it most effeciently.

Ah, but again, the Time in question has no monetary value, unless it’s in the same place where opportunity allows you to convert that same Time into Money. Saving money by converting Gold to Gems does not then attach a monetary value to the Time it took to farm said Gold. I’m not here to say your time isn’t valuable, but rather your time is not worth any money. Again, the mistake is in the perception that Time = Valuable = Money. Ergo, converting Gold to Gems was a Free transaction. It’s a fallacy to assume A = B, B = C, so A = C.

Onto Dusk. Dusk has no value per se. It’s a virtual item, that’s wholly owned by Anet. You’re not allowed to sell it for real money, just as you’re not allowed to buy it with real money. Value, in this sense, is dependent on the individual player. Do I value it for the Gold I can get from other players? Do I value it for the Legendary weapon I can craft with it? Do I value it as bragging rights that I have something others desire?

A = B. A = B.

You are repeating your opinion. I understand your opinion, I happen to feel that some of your assumptions are faulty. We can agree to disagree, but it’s hard when you are going around declaring your opinion to be fact.

Someone with more economic knowledge than you has said that time and effort have monetary value. You disagree. Not the first time that someone says " My opinion is different than yours." the issue is, you are claming your opinions are fact.

You are entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts.

PS: You are wrong you are allowed to buy dusk with real money. Just Think about it for a sec.

Again, it’s a fallacy to assume A = B, B = C, so A = C. Dr. Castronova, as brilliant as he is, can easily make the argument that Time = Money. But as I’ve already debated and disproved this, that puts me on par with him. So I guess that’s a testament to my debate skills.

We’re talking about the perception of value. Time is valuable to all of us. We don’t live forever, so what finite lifespan we have, we should make the most of it. But again, just because I value my Time, doesn’t mean we can randomly assign a monetary value to it. One could argue that when we sleep, we’re losing money. One could argue that when we go to the bathroom, that’s losing money as well. But that’s silliness. We all know that there is no monetary value lost when sleeping or using the bathroom. Just as there’s no monetary value lost when we choose to farm for in-game Gold.

The argument about us saving money when converting Gold to Gems is a good one. Yes, you can indeed save money by converting Gold, rather than buying Gems outright. And for all the money you could save, you still can’t put a monetary value on the Time it took to farm. It’s not possible to say that the 8 hours I spend in Orr now has the equivalent value of buying 4,000 Gems. If you cherry pick which hours are assigned a monetary value, your whole argument is flawed to begin with.

In conclusion, Time can have a monetary value when it’s coupled with a money making opportunity (i.e. job). A = C only if that condition is met. Outside of that, converting Gold to Gems is free.

just got to point this out very simply,
mathematically
a=b b=c therefor a=c
is in fact a hard mathematic rule. Now its possible that this situation is not representitive of that relationship, but if it is.
that essentially proves that a=c

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/602836/transitive-law

there is no opinion involved in this, its a mathematic postulate/law

Vol.7601:

1.) WvW rewards being rewarded to certain people and not others is not proof that the bug was caused by an account issue. It could have been caused by a myriad of other things that screwed up the code, not related to the underlying account.
2.) Shortsighted? It’s common sense and a numbers game. How many players play 3-6 hours straight with 3 event API’s active, along with multiple characters in order to comabt DR? I farmed this way for months and I saw only 2-3 regulars across these events, not including a few guildies that I brought along. Not to mention the API program I was using had an active tracker that showed the # of downloads and active users for the multi-server API. Downloads were at about 400 while the active concurrent users never went higher than 5 until I released my guide. There’s your proof.

as essence snow says. It does prove that it is possible for some type of code to effect some players and not others. Doesnt really matter if its based on account or not. It could be base on charachter names, zones they hang out, specific behavior patterns, doesnt really matter, all that matters is some bugs can consistenly effect some players and not others.

this opens up the possibility (not necessarily probability) that certain players could have some bug reducing their chances by some means or another.

Its also basically highly improbable to prove one way or the other

Vol.7601:

1.) WvW rewards being rewarded to certain people and not others is not proof that the bug was caused by an account issue. It could have been caused by a myriad of other things that screwed up the code, not related to the underlying account.
2.) Shortsighted? It’s common sense and a numbers game. How many players play 3-6 hours straight with 3 event API’s active, along with multiple characters in order to comabt DR? I farmed this way for months and I saw only 2-3 regulars across these events, not including a few guildies that I brought along. Not to mention the API program I was using had an active tracker that showed the # of downloads and active users for the multi-server API. Downloads were at about 400 while the active concurrent users never went higher than 5 until I released my guide. There’s your proof.

just because you farmed hard and got results doesnt mean everybody would. There is no way to tell, besides if you had a very large sample group of people doing the exact same thing you were, if the results you got were normal, below normal, or above normal.

And this is one of the big flaws with these type of systems. They can never really be tested well. It would be virtually impossible to prove if there was a bug, or not a bug, without data that you would be very unlikely to ever gather.

so for all intents and purposes, what you can say is this. You may get it, you may never get it, (from regular drops) time invested cannot be proven to be relevant, and even if it could, fact is every kill is in that instant the same improbable chance.

heres how i think it should roll overall, bosses should attack more often and use more skills/good movement. enemy behavior should be closer to how pvp plays.

Some bosses should be changed to multiple enemy type encounters.

CC bar for bosses, it builds up based on how much CC/CC strength(amounts to duration) done to it, and it bleeds away. The closer the bar is to full, the less effective CC/effects will be. Shorter durations, cooldown for interupts are shorter. (some weaker CC effects will be ignored depending on how full the bar is) If the bar reaches full, boss gets full immunity, and some sort of CC rage mode behavior/skill changes. It wont be insanely overpowered but it will change the nature of the fight. Different bosses would react differently in this situation. It goes away after a certain time

You can break the boss out of this if you use enough CC/strong CC, or you can wait for it to wear off.

I feel this would make CC use more cerebral, and more about choice of tactics. It would not be completely unviable to keep spamming it, but it is something you would have to deal with/consider. If your party has a large CC power, you can power through it, but that itself will require planning and skill, and you will have to deal with the CC induced style changes.

It wont be necessary to have massive CC in order to win, but it can be beneficial for some teams. Some teams will prefer using less CC, for specific things, so as to reliably interupt key skills, some will use a lot for a burst. In either case it will be actively managed. It can also be altered for boss variety, with some with better CC defense, or some with longer CCrage modes etc.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/yinstro/ccrag_zps5c5b86de.gif
basically the advantage to this system is more, depth to work with, different CCs have different advantages/disadvantages
Only the people who actually use CC effect the outcomes
Stray CC has an effect, but doesnt destroy the whole mechanic.
you can land interupts, though their effectiveness decreases with the amount of wasted CC.

Smith.1826:

GW1 was questionably and reasonably balanced pre-Factions, it most certainly wasn’t afterwards. All of the newer professions attempted to fill niches that the preexisting six already had and didn’t really introduce a whole lot mechanically (I wouldn’t count the assassin’s potential to ignore positioning much of a “plus”).

This was made all the more frustrating by the fact that it was still the most fun and some of the most unique PvP I’ve ever experienced in an RPG.

just because you didnt like the other jobs doesnt mean other people didnt. Also this whole balance thing is an illusion, it has never existed anywhere. Even fighting games who play test for months and refine for years still havie teirs. Its something you just attempt to do, and keep working towards. and in that respect, all you can really say is that gw1 attempted it way more often.

Also, going by most people i have seen gw1 pvp was more respected, and enjoyed. So what does that say about the importance of balance if you are correct about balance?

maha.7902:

You’re not meant to have a character focused on CC’ing bosses, you’re meant to be doing damage, support and control at the same time.

So there being very little benefit to someone focusing on CC is a good thing, it means it punishes inefficient playstyles.

no, it means their encounter design punishes the diversity they wanted to create, mesmer has

Mesmer tango icon 20px.png Bountiful Interruption – Gain might when you interrupt a foe, then gain another boon randomly.
Mesmer tango icon 20px.png Chaotic Interruption – Immobilize your target when you interrupt them and randomly apply blind, cripple, or chill.
Mesmer tango icon 20px.png Furious Interruption – Gain quickness when you interrupt a foe.
Mesmer tango icon 20px.png Illusion of Vulnerability – Inflict vulnerability when you interrupt a foe.
Mesmer tango icon 20px.png Halting Strike – Deal damage when interrupting a foe.
Mesmer tango icon 20px.png Power Block – Enemy skills that you interrupt have an increased cooldown.
Mesmer tango icon 20px.png Disruptor’s Sustainment – Gain bonus healing power when interrupting a foe.

swaths of traits and skills, fairly useless for any important fight.

As far as dalanor saying that a lot of these skills arent useful, having one static answer for every situation, is not imo a good idea as far as building diversity and entertainment go. Even if it is the case that all these skills are useless, and best not existing(which i am not saying is true) that isnt the way they should be, thats a flaw in the skills.

also as to movement, enemies should move around. I know you guys hate moving enemies because they slow down your dps, but when well executed, enemies that move make the fight much more entertaining. See most games outside of mmos, where an enemy is expected to move.
if handled well, movement can make a fight very interesting.

Linda Shors.5629:

Being at range already means you miss out from other people’s blast finishers. I don’t really have a problem standing closer in pve, but I was looking at this mostly from a pvp staff ele’s point of view. Staff already pays for its raw, ranged damage for the damage coming in fields people can just walk out of, squishiness, and long cast times/delays on spells. A pretty staple fire trait gives fury for blast finishers I trigger on fire fields. That fury+might is quite a loss of dps overall. In pvp, if I walk into the fight to get my buffs, they go, OOOH STAFF ELE, splat.

I like the combo system a lot, especially on staff. One of my favorite combos is actually swiftness stacking while running around. Earth 2 at max range ahead, air 5 on it, (earth 2 blasts), arcane wave, air 4 for a bunch of swiftness. But due to the range limit, I have to wait a bit for the explosion to go off, or i’ll be too far to the swiftness, which runs a bit counter the the idea of getting somewhere asap (really annoying as a perfectionist).

I just think the combo system more fluid and satisfying if it always worked for your own finishers.

cheshirefox.7026:

silly elementalist.. you can’t have your cake and eat it too
unless you aren’t an elementalist. . .

I don’t understand. . .

Do rangers or pistol thieves suffer similar problems from being at range?

you can use the blast finishers, you just have to make sure you are in the field, so you can target yourself or near you, or stand at the edge of the circle of the aoe. The game is very positional, you are supposed to be moving in and out of range to suit whats going on.
the easiest thing, just getting at max range doesnt give the best results.

move in and out as needed, or sacrifice a weak blast finisher/field for increased stacks (though your team could benefit as well)

mesmer has a skill which reflects boons, giving everything they have to the whole party.
so when people are holding back from using certain skills, they are holding back from giving the mesmer more boons to reflect to the whole party. delaying the use of these skills for 10 seconds, is 10 seconds more they could have been using these skills.

D/D doesnt have a good evade while doing dmg, the timing of deathblossom is slow, and it has an aftercast, this means the theif has to stop doing dmg, and dodge, or use a dodge cool down skill, s/p allows them to create an evade while doing dmg, at will. as opposed to doing dmg, then dodging, then coming back (slightly reduced by wall dodging, but that may or may not be a soft exploit)

So everyone is reducing their utility, and adaptability, and refraining from using their chosen combos, so they can get interupt this one skill, that probably wasnt that big deal to begin with, and interrupting it only puts it on cooldown for 5 seconds.

Its almost never useful. Im not saying they shouldnt have teamwork, or have some defenses to CC, but this is not a good execution, especially when the game was supposed to be about control, support and dps, the best control skill on a boss, is probably the immobilize condition.

Im not saying they should let people stun lock bosses, but right now, defiance is fairly unbalanced, and there is very little benefit to any charachter trying to focus on CCing bosses. They do have some uses with multiple enemy non defiance encounters though. But more often than not, its not worth what you could be giving up.

I also think if they didnt have defiance the way it is now, they would build more active enemies, with faster skills, and more intellegient movement. More depth, of course, not to mention bosses are largely immune to most on interupt effects, they would need to design the encounters/ai better no matter what they do or do not do.

Ignavia.7420:

Assuming this guy is correct, you have a 1 in 800 chance to get a precursor when combining 4 rare weapons in the forge. This means that you need 800 tries to get a precursor on average. The current sell price for Dusk is 1310g, so if it costs you less than 1g 63s 75b per try you can expect to save money.

But the problem is of course, that no one can guarantee, that you get a precursor after 800 tries. You may need way more tries and with such a low probability, the variance is high.

1/800 means that if you try 800 times, you have about a 66% chance of success. sooo yeah.

Dalanor.5387:

Phys, i feel offended by your trolling.
pistol whip (evasion/damage) – which is great for strip off defiant while not lose too much dps
stomp (blast finisher) – a skill you won’t ever use due to better options for CC
overcharged shot (removes immobilize cripple chilled) – it’s more tuned to PvP, not sure you would use it in your DPS rotation or use rifle at all
big old bomb, (large damage single attack blast finisher) – used at might stacking before the fight and great for defiant stripping too
counterattack (defense and damage) – channeled block or great for block a single attack while strip of defiant

phys.7689:

there is no solution for this, weapon skills need to serve multiple purposes because you only have 5 skills, and each weapon must work for multiple specialties. Also, these skills make sense to have CC tied to them, often the CC attached is appropriate. which is another problem CC skills are balanced for their effect, but defiant treats them all the same.

I see multiple use for certain skills which i find great, but you complain. Why? You make a problem from a non-existing problem.

Giant 5 second 45 cooldown CC is treated the same as a .25 second stun.
defiant is illogical

Hard to grasp what we are talking about, right? Thats why you need coordination and you don’t want to waste a 1/4 second long interrupt, instead use a 5 second freeze on the boss.

phys.7689:

actually there is more things than to just make people immune. And working together should be to achieve greater effect, not to achieve a weak effect.

See above.

working together for a 2 second stun, is not something you will generally convince most people matters.
hey everyone, dont use any skill with a stun/knockback/push/daze/knockup until i say so, we can delay him from doing 1 attack for 3 seconds.

yeah, its stupid.

Indeed, but it’s an encounter issue, it has nothing to do with Defiance.

Instead of making pointless complaint about skills that has no issue just to troll people, please provide better feedback or leave the discussion.

heres the best way to make use of defiant.
you strip all of it away, then you have one person with a useful CC ready to use it at the best time.
so this means once the skills are stripped
you cant use pistol whip to do good dmg while also evading attacks
you cant use counterattack to defend against a powerful attack
you cant use stomp to do damage while also giving extra might stacks on a fire field.
big old bomb is a huge dmg skill, if you combine it with might stacks and a guaranteed critical on next hit swap, you are giving up large dmg

the point is, working together well, is actually better served by NOT trying to remove defiant.
me stopping the theif from being able to stay in melee and do dmg, thats not teamwork, stopping a ranger from using a dmg negating attack without running is not teamwork. Not using blast finishers because im waiting on 2 second CC is not teamwork.

you see? the theif is giving up 3 seconds of safe dps, to get 2 seconds of safe dps. warrior is giving up 20 seconds of multiple people with 3 stacks of might for 2 seconds of effect.
ele mesmer reflect boon combo? giving up 10 seconds of swiftness reflected to all players for 2 seconds of CC.

and sucessfully using CC put a skill on what, 5 seconds cool down? congrats guys we stopped him from doing his big attack! for 5 seconds.
yeah, its simply not worth it at all.

Katai.6240:

You know the only result that comes out of this discussion is that ANET will just stop telling us what they’re planning, right?

I don’t see what this thread is hoping to accomplish. ANET is moving at whatever pace they can possibly handle. If you think that complaining that they didn’t meet their goals will make them move faster, you’re sorely mistaken. They WANT to have all these things done. There’s no reason for them NOT to want that. If they could move faster, they would!

This whole “You’re not releasing content fast enough, therefore you must hate us” mentality is toxic.

Its not about them hating anyone, Its just what you do when provide a service, communication, and follow through. This is essentially people being like why does it seem that you are having trouble following through, or communicating on these known issues.

Anet hearing that people are actually concerned about these things is what makes them know there are issues, and decide how important it is. They would not even have realized precursors were not a problem if people didnt complain about it. They would not have decided for a skill/trait progression if people didnt say thats what they want. And they wont communicate with players if players dont tell them they want quality communication.

now of course just because we mention these things doesnt mean they will do them, but i think its better to let them know what problems you have rather than to say nothing and hope they can figure out your main problems through telepathy

spoj.9672:

Katai.6240:

I’m confused. What are we complaining about?

CC against high level creatures would normally result in completely cheesing every boss out there. It’s not difficult to set up a perma-stun party with a handful of Warriors with hammers.

The normal course of action that most developers take is “These creatures are immune to status effects”. Pretty much every RPG where you have stuff like stuns, slows, or silences, every single boss is plainly immune to them.

GW2 took a different approach, and rather than completely neutering CC skills against the only battles that matter, they gave the creatures stacks of defiance. It makes sense, lore wise. How did you knock down this giant?! Well, we had 10 people using knock down effects!

Defiance is a way to make CC abilities somewhat useful against high level creatures. Be glad you have that at all. Yes, it does take some coordination, but it’s like the only thing that takes any coordination in the entire game. I never thought anyone would think that people working together intelligently is bad design.

+1 to you sir!

phys.7689:

anet loads skills with multiple uses, CCs are often a waste of space, or have other purposes, like
pistol whip (evasion/damage)
stomp (blast finisher)
overcharged shot (removes immobilize cripple chilled)
big old bomb, (large damage single attack blast finisher)
counterattack (defense and damage)

the list goes on. Point is holding back use of these multiple use skills, all to get 1-3 crappy seconds of control, is essentially not worth the effort at all. it really is a bad design.

This is a skills issue. Not a defiant issue.

there is no solution for this, weapon skills need to serve multiple purposes because you only have 5 skills, and each weapon must work for multiple specialties. Also, these skills make sense to have CC tied to them, often the CC attached is appropriate. which is another problem CC skills are balanced for their effect, but defiant treats them all the same.

Giant 5 second 45 cooldown CC is treated the same as a .25 second stun.
defiant is illogical

Katai.6240:

I’m confused. What are we complaining about?

CC against high level creatures would normally result in completely cheesing every boss out there. It’s not difficult to set up a perma-stun party with a handful of Warriors with hammers.

The normal course of action that most developers take is “These creatures are immune to status effects”. Pretty much every RPG where you have stuff like stuns, slows, or silences, every single boss is plainly immune to them.

GW2 took a different approach, and rather than completely neutering CC skills against the only battles that matter, they gave the creatures stacks of defiance. It makes sense, lore wise. How did you knock down this giant?! Well, we had 10 people using knock down effects!

Defiance is a way to make CC abilities somewhat useful against high level creatures. Be glad you have that at all. Yes, it does take some coordination, but it’s like the only thing that takes any coordination in the entire game. I never thought anyone would think that people working together intelligently is bad design.

actually there is more things than to just make people immune. And working together should be to achieve greater effect, not to achieve a weak effect.

working together for a 2 second stun, is not something you will generally convince most people matters.
hey everyone, dont use any skill with a stun/knockback/push/daze/knockup until i say so, we can delay him from doing 1 attack for 3 seconds.

yeah, its stupid.

spoj.9672:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If everyone brings control skills, you can burn away Defiant, that is true. But why would you? It takes too much time, effort and coordination, and is easily ruined by 1 person landing his control skill at the wrong moment. I’d say it is so badly designed, it almost encourages players not to work together, rather than the opposite. And again, there’s the timing issue. First you have to burn through the stack, and then you have to land the interrupt at the right moment without another player ruining it. And all that to interrupt an attack that can usually just be ignored by stacking in a corner.

Yes, the boss designs also need to change. But so does Defiant. It’s bad design.

I disagree. It’s good design. It encourages coordination and discourages spamming CC. And like I said most classes and builds have atleast one CC without even building for it. So there is no excuse in building for it.

And lets be honest for a second. Its standard forum practise to be snarky. It grabs your attention and makes you more likely to remember the post and re-read the points made. Ive made countless polite arguements in the past and they all get ignored with no response. But whenever you make a personal dig or two its hard for people to ignore and at least you know they read the post. I call it tactical snark. Its nothing personal.

anet loads skills with multiple uses, CCs are often a waste of space, or have other purposes, like
pistol whip (evasion/damage)
stomp (blast finisher)
overcharged shot (removes immobilize cripple chilled)
big old bomb, (large damage single attack blast finisher)
counterattack (defense and damage)

the list goes on. Point is holding back use of these multiple use skills, all to get 1-3 crappy seconds of control, is essentially not worth the effort at all. it really is a bad design.

spoj.9672:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

POSSIBLY being the operative word here. A single player gets punished as if 5 players are hitting the boss with CC, even if they are not. The current implementation of Defiant completely eliminates the use of control skills against bosses. That is not what it should do. It should prevent stun-locking, not prevent the use of CC entirely.

It doesnt prevent the use of CC entirely. If players dont want to make the effort to use cc and learn how to counter defiant stacks properly thats not the systems fault. Its either the players or the games teaching ability.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

You should be able to CC a boss when you want to. What my suggestion changes, is that you can’t spam CC skills, or you’ll be punished. My suggestion directly counters stun-locking, which is exactly what Defiant should be doing.

It achieves the exact same thing the current system does but also dumbs down the game and eliminates any need for coordination. The player base is dumb enough as it is, we dont need it to get easier.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No, the problem with the current system is that when you want to interrupt a boss, you can’t, because he already has 5 stacks of defiant. And unless your entire party is committed to peeling off those stacks of Defiant, you are not interrupting that boss at all. Thus, it completely eliminates CC as a game mechanic during boss fights.

No it doesn’t. Stop pugging. Just because you cant use CC effectively in a group full of morons doesnt mean the system eliminates CC as a game mechanic.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

In the open world this problem is even worse. If one player hits a boss with one CC skill, the boss gains 30 stacks of Defiant, even if none of the other 29 players are using CC skills. By the time you’ve peeled down those 30 stacks, the boss is dead. Congratulations, you may have interrupted the boss once or twice during the entire fight. Was it worth it?

I agree that open world is the only place where its an issue. Three Toad Tootsie is a good alternative for open world stuff. But defiant should remain for dungeons and fractals because it encourages coordination and communication. Something that dungeons are designed for.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Control skills and interrupts could have a role in boss fights. Right now they don’t, because Defiant is badly designed.

They do have a role, although minor and only used to maintain dps uptime in organised groups. Defiant isnt badly designed unless you consider zergs. Interrupts are not as important as they should be. Its not defiant that is the issue its the lack of incentive to interrupt key attacks.

sorry CC should not be something it takes 5 players to do. Or something that is easily rendered useless by 1 player. Its not useful enough to warrant that.
there is almost never a reason that 5 people should have to work together and not use many of their skills, for 1-3 seconds of CC.
sorry its just a really bad design.

i understand it perfectly, but it is nigh useless. and the price is seldom worth the gain.

Belzebu.3912:

Get a precursor from the Mystic Forge is a gamble, you may get luck and get it in a few tries, or spend thousands of gold trying to get a precursor that cost hundreds, but in the end the house always wins, no matter or what.

in this case, i wouldnt say the house always wins, better to say the losers pay for winners. the value is determined by the winners and the buyers.

Born To Strike.6073:

A coule of question about the MF:
1) Is it cheaper (cost against precursor drop rate) to put exotics or rares in the MF?
2) Overall do peole make a gain or a loss by using the forge to try to get a greatsword precursor?
Im wondering because I’m not great at grinding dungeons; I get bored very quickly. World bosses are just as bad, especially when Tequatl drops nothing but greens.
Can I have honest opinions and facts. Thank You

1) depends on many factors, the cost of the exotics, on average exotics is 1/100 combines if you pay 4 gold per exotic, and reuse whatever comes out, your lookin at 12 gold per round 100 combines would basically be about a 66% chance that you get it.

2)rares are about 1/1000 combines, or 3000ish rares for a 66% chance of success. however, if you sell exotics you get, you MAY recoup some costs.

at the end of the day its a gamble, so you just got to hope to win. regardless what path you choose.
If you are unlucky you will be screwed in either case.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

SkiTz.4590:

@LanFear, I agree with you IF there was actually even a glimpse of hope that anet would make rewards more towards skill-gated rather than time gated, but judging by the past 2 years, this is unrealistic.

actually went back and did some, i got most of them without even realizing, i would probably have gotten these achievements the first time if they werent locked. Lets say you want to add replayability and chanllenge to these missions ehhhhh i dont think they should even try, these missions are too easy for them to add challenge to them without redesigning them.
I like the extra objectives, but to be honest, this level? uhmm pretty low level in terms of depth or difficulty.

anet is not using the better skill = better reward philsophopy in gw2… simply because the majority of the player base will cry out of frustation that this is too hard.

Right now, theres nothing that equates to more difficult = more rewarding in GW2’s PvE.
The highly sought after stuff (precursors, frac skins are all just RNG gated).
I hope I’m wrong, but I simply don’t see anet changing their path with this kind of system

There does have to be a balance between game play that can be completed by the ‘average joe’ and game play that can only be done by the more skilled player. You’re correct that right now there really isn’t anything where better skill = better rewards, doesn’t mean there won’t ever be though.

During the twitch stream about the journal, it was stated that they want to make it so the story can be done by everyone, but the achievements would be more skill based. (Because players have been asking for more skill based, Liadre like, things) This might be a step in that direction. We’ll see what they come up for the achievements as things progress, and what types of rewards are tied to them. If it is successful for them, perhaps we might see more such things implemented into other parts of the game as well. Here’s to hoping.

also about the work analogy in real world… that’s only true if we are talking with constant variables. 2 same skilled guys working in Mickey D’s… who’s going to get paid more, the guy working 8 hour shifts or 4 hour shifts? Now yea the supervisor or manager will obviously be better rewarded than the avg burger tosser, but at some point, the supervisor still put in more hours and work in order to get to where he is.

Not exactly what I was thinking, because we weren’t talking about 2 equally skilled people. Although, to become a manager at McD’s, if you’re “skilled” it doesn’t really require any additional time (they send you to class during working hours) and you get paid for it… Any additional time you still get paid for, as an hourly worker. It’s not a good example though.

Try this one. My husband and I are mechanically inclined enough that we can do most of the work necessary to keep our vehicles running (like changing shocks, or a timing belt, or whatever. Things beyond the typical changing the oil and rotating the tires.) The water pump went out on my car recently, and we replaced it. It took us all day to do it because of where it’s located. Had I taken it to a certified mechanic, it would have taken him an hour to 90 minutes. He is more skilled than I and can complete the same thing in less time. If we’d both been getting paid for that…. he’d have made 700$ in less than 2 hours, where as I would have made 700$ for the whole kitten day. Same task, both parties capable, but the more skilled person gets the shiny faster.

To apply that to your McD’s scenario. The more skilled person would be opening their own branch.. not flipping the burgers.

the achievements dont look to be about challenge, they seem to be more about doing extra stuff. Which isnt horrible, but i dont think that will satisfiy anyones desire for challenge and definately not progression at cap. (the rewards arent very exciting)

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Show me this quote where Anet said that, because I sure haven’t seen it. But I have seen many posts about the game being dead. And I haven’t seen many posts about it since the mega server.

In my opinion, the mega server was far more important to the health of the game than precusor crafting will ever be.

Hmm rereading it, they said servers werent dead, but that they were empty in certain areas, so what you say applies. Still, the solution many players used for that was to simply guest to a different server. Megaserver is basically just forcing everyone to guest to a server, and not calling shards overflows anymore.

pretty sure people would have voted for new skills/traits before they voted for megaserver if given the option. Perhaps they should add more politics to the game, where players can weigh in on development priorities.

Yep, the mega server puts everyone on equal footing. I’m on TC. During the marionette fight, I couldn’t get on my server. Neither could much of my guild. There were many posts from the top servers with people complaining about it. It wasn’t fair. People guesting to TC, kicking us off.

Servers in general in PvE were the problem. If there is no TC, you can guest to TC, but you can’t say that you are or aren’t on TC. It puts everyone on even footing.

Also, I’m in Australia. I play at all hours. There were many times, even on TC, that I found empty zones in mid level areas. These days at least there are people around, even when I play.

I was becoming increasingly frustrated with the game until the mega server. That saved the game for me.

well, though i still think megaservers needs a TON of work, mostly on systems that interact with it (communication/communities/dynamic events/ui/grouping) its here now, its a done deal, but there is a ton of problems that still remain unsolved that are causing player loss/disastisfaction. They need to come up with some schedules for these things and imo get feedback on their solutions, and give feedback as to the whens and the whyfores.

Regardless of what they do, i dont think this system of communication, and the turnaround time on known issues/features is a good thing. (fractal reset for leaderboards which still dont exist?)

lordkrall.7241:

Kanebrake.6192:

No, most people do not just up and change their phone companies. Especially when there are large early termination fees involved.

But people will call over and over and over and over again to complain. They will write letters to the phone company. They will send emails. They will post all over the phones companies forums. They will get a hold of the CEO’s phone number and email and use that.

I suppose it depends on what kind of people it is.

It is however extremely unlikely that as many people as hang around here (based on % of the playerbase) after they quit playing would hang around a phone company they dislike and do the same.

Either they pay that early terminations fees or they just accept it and wait until the contract is over. Sure a bunch of people will spend most of their free time whining about it, but I doubt it is as high as the amount of people doing it here about this product.

because unlike a phone company, people actually like gw2. its like a friend who is sometimes good and sometimes effs up. but eventually people just say eff it. The people who still complain here are still somewhat engaged, they want to have a reason to come back. thing is a lot of the people who complain, are saying things that people who left didnt say.

Andd some of them did say, i have seen old familiar names in other forums, so yeah they definately have many people who complained, and left when they didnt see results. But regardless i dont think that is really a win for anet.

Vayne.8563:

Show me this quote where Anet said that, because I sure haven’t seen it. But I have seen many posts about the game being dead. And I haven’t seen many posts about it since the mega server.

In my opinion, the mega server was far more important to the health of the game than precusor crafting will ever be.

Hmm rereading it, they said servers werent dead, but that they were empty in certain areas, so what you say applies. Still, the solution many players used for that was to simply guest to a different server. Megaserver is basically just forcing everyone to guest to a server, and not calling shards overflows anymore.

pretty sure people would have voted for new skills/traits before they voted for megaserver if given the option. Perhaps they should add more politics to the game, where players can weigh in on development priorities.

Michael Walker.8150:

You can’t really break intentions as they aren’t something fix/clear to break, otherwise it’s a promise…you could call it “intentions – pending ending” or something the sort?

You probably won’t get an ETA from anybody, Anet has a “release when we are happy with it” policy for most things, hasn’t always worked out so well and might have confused and deterred one or the other customer. It’s not a bad approach in theory though in my opinion.

It might come out with “rewards 2.0” or maybe never if its implementation eliminates the need for crafting precursors.

I think Anet got it that something is amiss and their mmorpg turned out not as grand as intended so if they ever decide to overhaul several mechanics at once it’s helpful not having promised anything.

this is, imo a very bad strategy for any service you are providing as a business. It makes sense when you are creating an initial product, but its absolutely horrible when you are providing a continuing service.

basically your process has to adapt to the fact that you now have live customers, with expectations, and rightfully so.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t buy this argument at all. You’re postulating that more people will leave this game over not getting a precusor, over the amount of people who will leave this game because of the server issues that previously existed.

Even if I didn’t have a legendary, that’s a cosmetic thing. A long term goal. Not having people on a server? That’s far more important in my opinion. So much more important, it’s not even funny.

It goes back to that whole how many people really do end game content question. How many people just bang around in the open world and kill stuff.

And the other problem of not being able to get on your home server, because everyone else is taking your slot by guesting was another issue.

I’m 100% sure there are people that think the precusor crafting is massively important. I’m thinking some may have even left the game because of it. But by no means do I think that demographic is a big enough group to worry about. And I believe it’s a far small group than people banging around the open world who couldn’t find anyone to do events with.

except anet specifically said that the problem was not abandoned servers. This either means they are lying, or that wasnt the main cause. You also relealize guesting solved most of the issues, infact megaserver essentially amounts to mandatory guesting?

and you arent just talking about precursors, you are also talking about new skills/traits on a regular basis. (as far as problems they thought to solve by 2013)

As far as endgame goals with a clear progression, a disconnection of players to endgame was one of the FIRST problems that was identified. point is, more content focused and directed at level 80 players goals, is really the main appeal of precursor quests. Its a goal that players accept as being worthwile, and they are willing to do specific content if it gets them closer to that goal. It can be used therefor, as an incentive for interesting content, and enhance player experience. As far as open world people puttering around, i think its most likely whatever precursor solution they had, would end up having something to do with open world.

IE the main point of precursor quest isnt just to give players reliable access to precursors, its to make the game as a whole more rewarding, and give it a clearer progression/goal/and reward content.

heres what you get when you combine new skills/traits and a good precursor quest.

New things to get in the short term that make you feel like you are growing as a charachter, and have novelty/alter your old playstyle, and something to use these new toys on as you try to obtain these long term goals which now are within reach and have a path to achieve.

I believe that, is actually the main thing people want from most games, some new fun toys, and a something fun to use them to do. Restructuring servers so people dont have to hit a guest button, and limiting your old toys for longer, and gating them behind illogical things is not what they really wanted.

but regardless, getting back to the main point, its bad to not say anything when you have a problem, AND its bad to be unable to deliver solutions to problems in long time periods, whether you say something or not. Infact not being able to solve problems in a timely fashion, and not saying something about it, is worse as far as most customers i have seen.

Think about it, really,
customer wants something, then you get it late
a)tell him you are going to get by a date, then say nothing when it doesnt arrive
b)say nothing when he asks about the product when he first asked about it.
c)tell him you are going to get it in, and give updates on how and why its late and when you expect it
d)tell him you will not get that product at all

i think its very clear what the best option as a business is©, that is mostly likely to keep the customer, unless you pass his tolerance for effing up date, but the truth is that date was always there. You delay customer from leaving and saying screw you by communicating intent.

i am postulating that more people will lose trust/leave a service who is unable to solve problems the customer has identified in a timely fashion, or communicate with them whats going on, than would leave if they can solve problems in a timely fashion and communicate with them.

people really could have waited for a well designed megaserver system, they already had working solutions in place (guest to populated servers) ESPECIALLY if anet communicated intent of megaserver, and asked for feedback on its best execution.

Vayne.8563:

Your metaphors are all very good and nice, but they obscure the point.

It’s NOTHING like what you’re saying it’s like.

They had a problem, for which they identified a solution. The solution wasn’t compatible with other stuff they were doing. They decided to put it on the back burner until this was done.

To you this is a terrible broken thing. The only thing really broken about it was that they said something about what they were working on.

The precusor “problem” isn’t a priority for Anet. Other things take precedence. Like it wouldn’t matter at all if you could have a precursor more easily, if everyone left the game because servers were empty.

So the question becomes at that point what should be the priority. If the precursor problem isn’t an Anet priority (and I’ve seen no reason to believe it is a priority) then other things will take precedence.

The big sin here is even talking about it, when it’s not ready to be talked about.

I disagree, i dont think you are ever better off not talking about something because you have no solution. You are basically saying that a problem is only a problem if you talk about it. Its simply not true.

If they didnt say they were going to solve the problem, it would still be a problem, a lot of people would still be complaining, or have left. They didnt say it was a problem because they felt like it. People were complaining, people were disastisfied, It kept coming up again and again.

The reason people are complaining now, is because it is still a problem. As far as megaservers being a priority? you do realize, anet said that servers being empty WAS NOT the cause for megaserver. They said it was primarily for load balancing and they thought it was a better system going forward. So it wasnt, according to them, this crisis event that they had to do right now.

Do you think the trait change was also a crisis event? no it really wasnt, in fact i dont think the system is overall better at all in its current implementation. They basically took a suggestion for high endgame goals, and applied it to the trait system very poorly. id say its a net loss.

lack of new skills/not many new traits: thats a big problem, thats something people really want. My guess? the player base would have been way way more energized/happy if that megaserver patch had taken out megaserver and trait, and replaced it with new weapons/skills, and a new endgame progression of cool content towards precursors. In fact these two solutions would likely have reenergized the population, and you would see more people throughout the game on a regular basis. They then could have baked megaservers longer, and had systems in place that need to go with it, like
redefining the role of world choice
specific means for seperation of world/language communication
better solutions and UI for world events within a megaserver system
better means of grouping up and staying together within the megaserver

In fact with good communication, they could have probably prepared players better for this, as well as iterated faster based on consumer feedback.

sorry but really at the end of the day, the lack of communication is not a plus, anet hasnt shown that they can give players what they want without feedback(after launch). And the fear of not being able to live up to what you should do in communication is a weak excuse. The answer is to communicate clearly and more often. People in general will work with you if they see you are making efforts, and even help you along. And yes, you will have to eventually produce something, but the fact is you always needed to produce something, whether you said so or not.

Vayne.8563:

Nerelith.7360:

Lopez.7369:

Of course there’s been great progress in other areas.

But in most companies, if a team leader sets out to do one or more projects, and the projects aren’t completed a year and a half later, a lot of people should expect to be fired.

Now, I’m not saying the ArenaNet developers should be fired. I love the developers, and I wouldn’t wish that on any of them. But there’s clearly something wrong with how the higher-ups are organizing and setting projects.

I do not want them fired. But I want the developers that gave us Guild Wars. If these are them, I want them to become who they used to be… if these people are new people, I want the old people back… what happens with these guys, is entirely up to NCSoft.

I don’t care what anyone says, I remember the ArenaNet that developed Guild Wars, and this company isn’t the same company, it may have the same name..but…Inside it’s not them.

I want the old ArenaNet back.

It’s not realistic. People change. You can have the same dev doing somethign ten years later, and it’s different. What you really want is a time machine. To go back to when they were what they were. Because people change.

It’s like authors. A guy writes a bunch of great books. Ten books later people say his old stuff was better. They wish he was the old guy.

But he’s not, because time has passed.

ehh you can keep your talented devs in general if you give them more money, and more outlets for their skills. If they leave, its usually (though not always) because some one else will pay them more for the same thing.

Also you people are missing the point. Promises aside, If your process for solving problems can yeild no results at a stated goal, in a long time period, there is a problem with your process.

Essentially the fact that their process was unable to come up with a good solution, for a problem identified 1.5 years ago is really the bigger problem. This isnt about lawyering what is slander and what is not. This is about players being able to say, something is wrong when you cannot promise me anything, and cannot solve problems we have identified.

The same thing as your signifigant other yelling at you because 1.5 years ago you said you would try to solve a problem as soon as possible, and you still havent solved it. Your failure is still a failure, and not saying you would solve the problem IS NOT THE PROBLEM.
If you never said you would solve the problem, it doesnt change that this was a problem that was identified 1.5 years ago.

This is why the idea of not saying anything as a solution is a false idea, it assumes that the only reason people want/need things is because you say it. Its wanted/needed even if you never say it, not saying anything isnt providing any service, in fact its worse

think on this hypothetical, both you and your wife realize you should stop doing crack,
which way do you think is actually beneficial?
a) say nothing, and try to quit, maybe this way if you keep doing crack, she cant say you lied
b) say you will stop doing crack, but keep doing crack
c) say i know crack is bad, but im going to keep doing it anyway
d) say you will stop doing crack, and then work dillegently to stop doing crack

the answer is D, and the second best answer is probably C.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Actually nerelith is correct, in high end terms. currency that is doing its job is actually a measure of effort/skill/knowledge/time/value.

from a perspective, you may be right, time is not literally=money

however, from that same perspective, dusk is not literally gold.
If i find dusk, did i find gold? If i keep dusk have i saved gold?
did dusk have no value once i equip it?

its a matter of perspective in some respects.

but the truth of time is that all effort/skill/knowledge/ etc you use has a value, ultimately in an economic system, its currency.

the key is figuring out what the value of that time is, depending what you are doing in that time frame.

ultimately, in this situation, your time has a monetary value, for anet. Anet is makes a certain amount of money, by allowing you to sell the fruits of your time to someone who wants that product.

For the player, it has a monetary value in terms of how much money you save, through these actions, and depending on the person, how much money you could make with that same time applied to something else.

In general though, time is money. The people who stay rich figure out how to transform it most effeciently.

Ah, but again, the Time in question has no monetary value, unless it’s in the same place where opportunity allows you to convert that same Time into Money. Saving money by converting Gold to Gems does not then attach a monetary value to the Time it took to farm said Gold. I’m not here to say your time isn’t valuable, but rather your time is not worth any money. Again, the mistake is in the perception that Time = Valuable = Money. Ergo, converting Gold to Gems was a Free transaction. It’s a fallacy to assume A = B, B = C, so A = C.

Onto Dusk. Dusk has no value per se. It’s a virtual item, that’s wholly owned by Anet. You’re not allowed to sell it for real money, just as you’re not allowed to buy it with real money. Value, in this sense, is dependent on the individual player. Do I value it for the Gold I can get from other players? Do I value it for the Legendary weapon I can craft with it? Do I value it as bragging rights that I have something others desire?

to put in a way that is less debatable, time has economic value. And economic value is what money is trying to represent.

but in this case, getting focused on the issue at hand, your time is definately money to anet. One of the products they sell players is your time.

so your anet has figured out how to turn your time =money

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

yeah, but a sizable portion of people are not very satisfied. 40% isnt a small % of non satisfaction.
overal average is 55.7-65.7 rating

for me, when i see a 54 to 65% rating i think the product is not that great, but not horrible

I think you need to recalculate…

it has gone up slightly, its currently 57 to 67%
my method for finding the average is to sum up all the votes, multiply them, then divide by the number of votes, pretty standard method for averaging. However maybe i messed up.

also, when i look at where the middle player stands(currently 48), its currently in the 60-70 range.

darkace.8925:

You guys don’t need ArenaNet to implement a Hardcore Mode for you. If you want to do this, delete your character when you die. There are no achievements, but you can handle everything else yourselves.

yeah thats what the op was suggesting.

Behellagh.1468:

darkace.8925:

Reasonable people accept that deadlines in this industry can, will, and often should be missed. It’s been my experience that unreasonable people are generally not worth fretting over, as they they’re apt be be unreasonable. So what’s to be gained by ArenaNet going dark? They’re punishing the reasonable for nature of the unreasonable, who are – as you already know – going to complain about something one way or the other.

Because the unreasonable are the most vocal. And they are vocal not just here but on every MMO site with a GW2 section. And that discourages new players from plunking down the cash for the game and maybe a gem card. By saying nothing until something in the release pipeline takes some of the wind out of the unreasonable people’s sails it also builds excitement because reasonable people will know it’s not just marketing hype and vague promises.

Its a better story that anet is late with X Y Z plans, (which actually helps promote those plans if they are good plans) than anet has nothing to say and hasnt kept up with things they were supposed to do last year.

Better people to be angry because something they like, that is cool and interesting is delayed, than to think nothing is really on the horizon. Worst thing you can do when you are late, or not doing something someone expected is go dark, leaves them to assume the worst, and they dislike you for it.

ThiBash.5634:

Anyone who’d want this is completely bonkers. The game is filled with so many instant-kill effects that one lagspike could mean redoing thousands of hours…no wait, tens of minutes of gameplay, because you’d never get much beyond that.

pretty sure it wouldnt really be that hard, lag spike is the big threat. The big challenge would come later, if you try to go after hard content, or jump puzzles.

yeah, but a sizable portion of people are not very satisfied. 40% isnt a small % of non satisfaction.
overal average is 55.7-65.7 rating

for me, when i see a 54 to 65% rating i think the product is not that great, but not horrible

Rin.1046:

Relots.6439:

I think I’m being misunderstood. I’m not so much looking for ANet to change the game/add servers/ or even implement a HC mode. I’m just looking for like minded players who want to do it with me. I’m already doing it (well have been off and on for a while now). It’s a blast….until you die. There is no reason to keep HC and normal characters separate. Nobody in the open world knows what you’re doing, so they have no reason to grief you. It’s also a great way to make decent friends. You know the person traveling with you will have your back because he doesn’t want to see you die either. My buddy and I are currently working on this, but I understand if it’s not for everyone.

I see, so you are kind of role playing a game mode? In that case go for it. What you do with your game is up to you. It’s fun to think of ways to make a game more interesting or challenging. If you get enjoyment out of pretending your character is HC, then I say go for it. So long as you don’t grief other players because of it, but it doesn’t sound like you are.

I’m sure there are a few ways you can add fun challenges to the game. Skinny Boss Fighting (like skinny dipping but with bosses instead of water), Walking Combat (though that can get frustrating in some situatiosn lol), White Gear Dungeon Runs, etc.

Now I understand what you mean I may even give the RP Hardcore Character a try some time

As to the guild thing, you could create a guild that only does unusual challenges, such as pretend hardcore characters and armourless boss fights.

if you agree to delete your charachter when it dies, its not really pretend.. I would think one would want to stay far away from naked boss fights if chr deletion is on the line.

guild would probably work pretty well. its opt in, and could theoretically have a lot of people at once.

Relots.6439:

Rin.1046:

Relots.6439:

picture this: You and a couple HC players are engaged in a tough battle. You’re on the edge of your seat as you dodge, maneuver, and use every skill at your disposal to survive. The battle is prolonged and one of your buddies gets trapped and downed in a mob. You face a choice. You know he’s put 10, 20, 30+ hours into his character. You can play it safe and retreat, or put your own avatar at risk to revive/rally him. You make a split-second decision and leap into the fray, disrupting your foes enough to buy the downed player some time. It’s enough for your party to kill an enemy and rally him. Everyone scrambles for safety, the rallied player breathes a deep sigh of relief, and you reassemble yourselves to finish off your weakened enemies. Which sounds more fun to you?
Come on, you know you are up to the challenge….

What choice? There is only one option: Run away and let the player die. If the other players have put in hours to progress their hardcore character they will not risk their own necks to save someone else. It just won’t happen. Or at the very least the population of honorable HC players will be tiny. We saw it in GW1 with the Survivor title. The moment that title was introduce pug’s had player dropping from teams like flies. If a pull when tricky the survivors in the group left or logged out. It was not a happy time for many. Once the guides came out of course players tended to congregate to the areas best for XP gain at low risk. Life takes the path of least resistance, and most HC players will not behave any differently.

It’s a nice idea but there is no way to successfully work it into GW2. Also, you’d have to keep HC and normal players seperate. There would be many angry players if it was introduced, because HC players would either be leaving instances when the risk is too great or they would be hanging back and not pulling their weight as much as the rest of the group. They would leave dungeons, world bosses, fractals, you name it. And that would only create frustration and a split player base. And no, I do not think Anet would create a whole new and seperate game just for HC players.

It’s a pipe dream that doesn’t fit this game. If you want hardcore, I suggest finding a different game that offers it, because it will never happen in GW2. The only thing like this I can see Anet adding are special instances where when you die you are removed from the instance. But losing your character all together will not happen. And that in my opinion is a good thing.

I think I’m being misunderstood. I’m not so much looking for ANet to change the game/add servers/ or even implement a HC mode. I’m just looking for like minded players who want to do it with me. I’m already doing it (well have been off and on for a while now). It’s a blast….until you die. There is no reason to keep HC and normal characters separate. Nobody in the open world knows what you’re doing, so they have no reason to grief you. It’s also a great way to make decent friends. You know the person traveling with you will have your back because he doesn’t want to see you die either. My buddy and I are currently working on this, but I understand if it’s not for everyone.

hmmm i would do it, but… dunno if i can make myself log into gw2 on reg basis these days, just a feeling of ehhh disatisfaction.

too bad you didnt catch me a couple months ago. + id probably have to delete or buy a slot ehhh

Nerelith.7360:

phys.7689:

uknortherner.2670:

What I’ve learned from this thread so far:

1) Vocal serial complainers either can’t read simple English or deliberately take things out of context just for the sake of being argumentative.
2) Anyone who points this out to them is a shill, a fanboy, a white knight or an Anet employee.
3) I wish this forum had an ‘ignore’ function, so I can block out all the rubbish you conspiracy nuts keep coming out with.
4) I will probably get an infraction point or two for posting this.

the context of a blog post for anet is pretty much a commitment, they have said in the past, if you see a blog post about it, serious.
From the information that leaks out, i think anet is (or was up until recently) still struggling with managing and organizing the game development. It would honestly under that system be hard to even use our feedback, because they cant even use their own that well.

The reason these things arent happening is because anet is unable to use their current resources as well as they could, that includes these forums, and the feedback we give them.

Are you saying they don’t know what they are doing? Or maybe they don’t know how to realize their own vision?

It just seems that people are ok with " Well.. they are doing their best… " I paid for a quality product from a professional company. Not some college intern’s best attempt.

I really think a lot of players are so in love with Arenanet and GW2, that they let them get away with things we would only accept from an amature." hey, it’s Not good…but what do you expect? It’s not Like they are professionals or anything…. for people with a hobby it’s not bad."

I constantly hear " they are getting better." Or " the new patches show they are taking our input to heart."

That sounds Like Public Beta phase. This game has been released for 2 years…when are we leaving Public Beta?

I know one of the avid defenders will now say " All MMO’s are always in Public beta. " umm…No, they aren’t.

But the way this game doesn’t remain consistent with it’s primary vision, the way it squanders resources… and the good will it had generated with that other game I cannot mention. Unless it’s in the gem store of course.

It makes me wonder.

i am not excusing it, i am just trying to take a realistic look at the situation, It really does seem that anet is having problems with managing and product development. They have a lot of projects with one dude working on it most of it, who seem really disconnected from the other parts. They seem like they are constantly under time crunch and therefore cant deliver, They have a pipeline issues, bottleneck issues where every team has to wait on UI, or network etc.

I think they will probably need to get that stuff sorted out before they can begin to have sustainable success. Its pretty hit or miss at this point.

buggin out bugless

Vayne.8563:

Sithaco.4673:

Vayne.8563:

Sithaco.4673:

I understand that development changes, plans change, due dates change, but it’s because of such a lack of communication that this is a problem. They make a big blog post that lots of MMO websites link to detailing what will be coming in 2013, everyone hears about it and it gets really hyped up, and then some of it doesn’t happen. Sure, this is okay, plans and development change, but the way they communicated this with us was terrible, not everyone is going to see a reply from Arenanet in a single forum post saying that it probably won’t be coming in 2013, thus causing the problem of communication. If they are going to hype something up really big and make everyone hear about it, when plans change they need to make that information just as visible.

Except that a roadmap isn’t hype. They laid out plans and said plans might change. That’s not hype. That’s not even close to hype. If you took what was said at face value, they said they had plans that may change. If you can get hyped about that, more power to you.

They gave us, as I’ve said, other stuff which was just as important. Sure it’s not the same stuff. They specifically said in a post (I don’t have a quote handy) that the stuff they had been planning with the precusors wouldn’t have worked with other changes they made to the game. It’s back to the drawing board.

Are you kidding? How can you say this blog post wasn’t intended to generate hype? It was at a time in the game where we didn’t have a lot of permanent content, and people were getting frustrated, they wanted to put the player base to ease and get them all excited for a bunch of new cool stuff coming out in the next few months.

And yeah, they did give us other stuff, cool stuff, megaserver, the wardrobe system, and that’s okay, I’m not sitting here saying that just because they said we will be getting stuff within the next X amount of time then we HAVE to get it, because I know that development and plans change, which is what they’ve told us happened.

My problem is there hasn’t been much communication about it, it’s something a lot of people are eager for, and we’ve got no idea if it’s coming out this year, next year, the year after, for something that was supposed to come out last year, I think we deserve a bit more information on what’s going on.

Right so let’s look at the whole iterative thing. A company knows they change plans like all the time. It’s how they work. They’ve said it. We should all know it by now.

Then the fans say, but you’re not communicating. You don’t tell us your plans. So they tell us their plans even though they say plans may change, which is what happened.

Do you not recall people pushing them to give us more info, cause I do. They’re kitten ed if they do and kitten ed if they don’t. They give us info too early and it changes and they’re liars, right? They give us no info and they don’t communicate. They give us info and say it’s subject to change and guess what? They’re liars again.

Do you think that’s reasonable…because I sure don’t.

Tell me, in your estimation, which should a creative, iterative company do, if they make plans but don’t always stick to that plan?

if the current state of post launch development in GW2 is due to iterative development, maybe they need to move away from that. fact is game has been out for 2 years, and it hasnt really shown a strong progression in terms of development. The best parts of the game were shipped with the box. Some of the additions were cool, but mostly unrefined/off target/ not evolved well.

but lets say you have an iterative company
you need to be more agile with your development, you need to involve more players, you probably would have more need of a PTS than anyone else. Iterative design is based on being able to use feedback quickly and readjust fast. That is not a charachteristic of anet current development.
bugs dont get fixed quickly, things arent thouroughly tested, and fixes/changes are pretty glacial. Use of feedback is minimal. With an iterative development process, they should have run 5 to 6 different aquisition methods by the playerbase in this time, tested 4 of them, and refined them even more.

Slow unresponsive iterative development will lead to relative stagnation and a feeling of a rudderless game.

uknortherner.2670:

What I’ve learned from this thread so far:

1) Vocal serial complainers either can’t read simple English or deliberately take things out of context just for the sake of being argumentative.
2) Anyone who points this out to them is a shill, a fanboy, a white knight or an Anet employee.
3) I wish this forum had an ‘ignore’ function, so I can block out all the rubbish you conspiracy nuts keep coming out with.
4) I will probably get an infraction point or two for posting this.

the context of a blog post for anet is pretty much a commitment, they have said in the past, if you see a blog post about it, serious.
From the information that leaks out, i think anet is (or was up until recently) still struggling with managing and organizing the game development. It would honestly under that system be hard to even use our feedback, because they cant even use their own that well.

The reason these things arent happening is because anet is unable to use their current resources as well as they could, that includes these forums, and the feedback we give them.

just looked at the latest ffxiv content update, its comparitively pretty massive, they seem to come every 3 months, and seem (from looking at the notes) to eclipse this game in terms of refinement and content.

Of course they are getting subscription money, but kitten homey.