Guild Wars 2

Stark.1350:

Arguing aside Anonymous, if you haven’t played MMO’s before, it’s hard to explain things. And fanboyism aside, I’ve played Everquest, Everquest 2, Rift and WoW, all good games in their own right, and none of those launches had any more to do than GW2 does now. In some cases, even less.

The amount of dungeons, world events, and content in general is about equal. The problem is that the lvl 80 real estate is horribly small and broken. Orr is small and currently infested with bots and zergs farming karma. The ones that work.

Im not taking sides with any specific MMO but I am disappointed that this game was rushed to beat out the wow xpac and it could have launched in a much better position.

I am just sick of developers rushing games out and spending more time on voice acting and graphics when the gameplay almost seems like an after thought.

Also…too many mmo’s these days focus on pre release and release and not enough on post development. They were NOT prepared for this storm. Now they are paying for it and up to their necks with catchup….even placing up ads on the front page looking to hire more people.

That last one has been a huge contribution to the last 4-5 new MMO’s failing.

Arazel.4185:

I run this game on max settings and I have no performance issues, even in WvW. I don’t think your computer is as super as you think. Either that or your internet connection sucks.

Hes speaking about the invisible players that arent drawn immediately when you run up on a group. This does happen sometimes and from what I understand its not just a rig issue.

Point is… I have a comp too that could run any game on ultra and i see it. I can only imagine how much worse it is for people who have even above average computers.

Because the fanboys are unwilling to admit that the flaws are there. They get defensive when people post negative comments about the game. They tell people that they played the game wrong…or its not for them “go back to wow”.

Most of the people complaining in the forums aren’t doing so just to vent…. they are doing it because they actually like the game and are hoping devs read and make changes.

I can respect a player who says “I disagree and I enjoy the game because…”

But dont jump on someone elses post and tell them that they are wrong about topics they have no business commenting on….GO LEVEL you will see for yourself. You can’t argue with his assessment of 80 because you cant even compare his experience to your own yet!

I am more worried about the current issues vs future content and from what i hear… gw1 had issues with class balancing and dev communication. That was just what i heard from gw1 vets since I never played.

“I believe you might have just overlooked it during your speedrun through the content.”

“the game has PLENTY of content. you just didnt do most of it…… " “….personally, i wouldnt wanna be in Orr right now, luckily im far from it…hoping it and DE’s are fixed by the time i hit 80”

Why is it when people give their honest and constructive opinion (including pros and cons) that people STILL manage to get defensive and call you out on an assumption like “you rushed through it and missed stuff”.

How can you try and discredit what he is saying as an experience AND as his opinion when you haven’t even reached 80 yourself OR exp the same zones?

Great post though…but people trying to be fanboys without having an idea what they are talking about is annoying. The state of the game is no ones fault but the developers. It is definitely not the fault of people who “rushed 80” especially since that excuse is garbage since you can easily do it casually playing.

GW2 levels 1-70 = best game this year.

Fixed

nerva.7940:

the foundation of the game is solid. end game was functional, albeit broken in some ways like rewards etc. but functional. gw2 was the most complete MMo ever released.

“end game” is broken yes…and boring which is causing guilds/players to drop every day.

Orr is a mess and unplayable…zergs of bots and players camping events only waiting to tap mobs…..maybe you havent seen it lol.

Functional is not enough to claim the “most complete mmo ever released” award. Sure you can do any of the activities that arent broken but wuite a few players have stopped all together and eitehr stick to pvp, wvw, or left until things get fixed.

I havent. Im waiting for them to fix orr…maybe even do some class balance.

I wouldnt give it #1 but definitely top 10. i think most reviews were done prematurely and with not much going into the higher levels. Thats what really matters to the longer term players. It’s what the game is built around and balanced on.

Hawken.7932:

@robot: I seriously don’t understand why you are here or why you play this game? All you do is go from thread to thread, complaining about every single topic which is being discussed. Go get some fresh air, dude.

Until everyone agrees with my opinion…I will not stop and I will become as redundant as these threads.

Player 1: "Im at 80! Im bored!!!
Player 2: “GO BACK TO WOW!!! I’m level 12 already and I love it!!! You don’t know what your talking about! Go chase a carrot!”

It is becoming obvious that the people who are arguing “fun” vs “rewards” in these threads are a bit slow or just havent experienced 80 yet…

You can’t have experienced 80 and not noticed that its a grind for rewards that you purchase from repeatedly farming karma, tokens, badges, gold, or mats.

Fact 1 – This is not Insert MMO name here
Fact 2 – …But it sure as hell acts like it at 80

/thread

DusK.3849:

While they’re chasing carrots, we’re eating ’em. I like that.

You do realize that…this game…is full of carrots…right?

You are just chasing them differently than other mmo’s lol.

So what if you cant get a massive 2 hander and 2 shot people. People are still grinding karma, tokens, badges, gold, mats, for skins and stat advantages big or small.

Tradewind.6913:

Why can’t “fun” be a goal?

Why does everything have to be black and white? “fun” is pretty subjective and vague.

If what you mean by fun is ….no gear grind and rewardless events…then they can be and ARE fun….they just don’t have reply value unless there is a reason to continue to play those events. You can only do an event so many times before its old…

I think its more like…Players started playing mmo’s because thats the kind of games they are/were.

Even offline final fantasy games were part for the story and part character progression and rewards.

Beware…fanboy spam inc…. and most of them have no idea what they are talking about because they are under lvl 60. lol

rook.4625:

Dude, if you want rewards, you’re playing the wrong game apparently. Go to WoW, duh!

What do the rewards have to do with the fact that DE farming is not fun because its a huge zerg? rewards are actually the only thing keeping people doing what little there IS to do. People wouldn’t do them for hours at a time if there was no loot.

Craven.5468:

Nothing wrong with playing that way, but there is something wrong with playing it that way and then complaining on the forums of the lack of content when you had to skip most of it using that method.

The problem is the content is broken! I dont think anyone is complaining there isnt enough content after a month… even if it took until now for someone to hi level cap….what would have changed? seriously? what would be different?

There is no new content and the grind is only harder. The problem is the bugs…not the speed to lvl cap. They should have released a complete product with end game more thought out but now they are past release and doing clean up….they are behind….very behind.

Lord Jaguar.9504:

I don’t get why pointing out factual evidence of Anet busily fixing the existing issues somehow qualifies myself or others as myopic fanbois. Please, explain.

What is annoying is when people blind themselves to the larger issues and try to tell people they are either overreacting or wrong. Anet did just like most other failed mmo’s have done in the past 4-5 years… They put to much in pre release and release and not enough planning for post release.

They rushed a product out knowing 80 cap was going to be hit earlier and the 80 content was practically untested. Optimization was left last minute. Class balance had huge issues where nerfs were happening but not enough attention was paid to the consequences. Buffs have come no where near as quickly as nerfs. Bot issues, bugs, and to top it all off…..communication is horrible. This doesnt surprise me though seeing as how anet had a horrible rep communicating to the playerbase during GW1.

There is absolutely no reason that these patches shouldnt be bigger. The quality of their product diminishes greatly at level 70+ and it doesn’t appear that anyone on the dev team has a sense of urgency to really do what needs to be done to fix it.

Im glad they are hiring though….again…proof that they didnt get post release much thought. The big picture was ….get the 60$ before wow expac launches. NOW they have time to sit on it.

Craven.5468:

Sheen.8196:

Craven.5468:

Sheen.8196:

All I know is, the old MMORPGs gave you months of content at launch, even if you were playing 24-7… gw2 is innovative with the whole “done in 3 days” design.

Stop your ridiculous exaggeration.

Oh it isn’t an exaggeration… i think if anyone here is exaggerating it may be you…

But given the nature of your first post in this thread… I think we sorta understand where your loyalties lie…

What? Show me a screenshot of an 80 toon with three days of play (or less) and at least some form of proof of actually playing the game (high world completion percentage, token count, decent gear, etc).

You can’t. It isn’t possible. That is precisely what exaggeration means. You exaggerated and are now denying it? Wow…

Guild wars 1 and now 2 are pretty well known for the quick leveling. Its easy. Who cares.

dybryd.1358:

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Unless you change your reward-centric mentality, you’ve pretty much gotten all you can get out of the game, IMO. All in all, I’d say you got your money’s worth. Long-term, the game simply isn’t for hard-core raiders who expect some kind of tangible, meaningful rewards that fall in line with some presumed risk vs reward standard.

Gear upgrades in a system of constant stat inflation aren’t really tangible or meaningful.

However, dungeon armor is one of the main long-term goals the game presents to players. OP hasn’t just made up this goal for himself, it’s built into the game.

That being the case, a player’s progress toward that goal being wildly unpredictable because of bugs is not a problem with player attitude (and in fact OP’s attitude is constructive despite his frustration) – it’s a problem with the coding of the game.

Very well put.

@Wintyre Fraust.6534
On another note…The whole “You are reward centric and play too much for my standards…. so this game isnt for you” argument is old.

Anet NEVER said this game was aimed at casual gamers only. They also have rewards in the game itself.

“tangible, meaningful rewards that fall in line with some presumed risk vs reward standard” ???

The skins and minimal stat increases that come with upgrades still fall in that standard… how do they not? Are people really so blind that they don’t see it?

If the dungeons DIDNT have these rewards…how many people would still run them that many times?

I’m not against the direction they want to take this game but at the moment it is going the wrong way. Cookie cutter builds? big problem. gear grinds and reward based? absolutely. It is obvious…

gurugeorge.9857:

robot.9134:

gurugeorge.9857:

As a casual player at level 56 with my main….

I stopped reading… Not trying to be a jerk…but lets be real.. MMO’s are great for the journey to lvl cap…but the game is centered around lvl 80 play. You don’t have the experience to tell me that end game is or isnt an issue. i had the same point of veiw while leveling to 80 and completely lost it at cap.

My point is, I suspect I won’t. Not least because as far as I’m concerned, PvP is going to be my endgame.

As to the PvE endgame, I accept that some people are having a problem with that now, but MMOs that have just been released can’t possibly cater to people who get to lvl 80 in two weeks.

Some people got to lvl 60 in 2 weeks when WoW was released. It’s endemic to MMOs, and there’s nothing that can be done about it until more content is released over time. 8 years after release, there’s a kitten-ton of endgame content in WoW. In the same way, 8 years from now, nobody starting GW2 will be able to complain there’s not enough content at cap.

It’s totally IMPOSSIBLE for a game to have 8 years worth of endgame content at release. If that’s what you expect, then no just-released MMO is ever going to make you happy, because your expectation is unrealistic.

no one is comparing this game to wow or any other older mmo in its current state. Obviously you cannot compare a month old mmo to a much older one.

Vicwolf hit the nail on the head. It still goes back to your limited experience pre lvl cap.

1. GW has a history of much faster leveling compared to other MMO’s. 80 is no race… it is ridiculously ez to hit. The fact that they design games to cap quick means that they better well have end game figured out…MORE SO than games that have a longer leveling experience.

2. We aren’t bored because we have played too much… a lot of players are bored because the depth of end game content is lacking AND broken. You will see.

No one is crying “IM SO BORED WE NEED A NEW EXPANSION!!!” They are asking for the current content to be fixed….so its more enjoyable ….and it works.

Big difference.

ituhata.6830:

I heard my guildie talk about Orr, I haven’t been yet, and quite frankly I’m no sure I want to, but map completion will eventually steer me that way… But lets not pretend ilum wasnt a 1fp4s lagfest with a mere 25 people on the map and flashpoints didn’t have bosses that would glitch out and reset midfight. =P (I’m staring at you, Revan and HK)

Orr just sounds like a nightmare because respawns come too fast and mobs have too much health.

Orr doesnt not give you very many options. Map exploration, farming mobs for drops, or jumping on the train and doing DE runs.

Thats all people do really. There is 1 or multiple zergs that run as fast as they can from one de to the next. Sometimes the zerg is so big that if the head of the zerg makes it to a boss….he will be dead by the time the middle of the zerg even reaches him. Soooo if you didnt tag the boss you get no medals at all. That brings up another problem… de scaling…

@farming… most people dont in Orr from what ive heard just because the high mob count, the respawn, and the anti farming code which pretty much gives you crap loot after killing the same mob over and over…in this case….Orr has undead almost all over. its not easy to switch it up.

gurugeorge.9857:

As a casual player at level 56 with my main….

I stopped reading… Not trying to be a jerk…but lets be real.. MMO’s are great for the journey to lvl cap…but the game is centered around lvl 80 play. You don’t have the experience to tell me that end game is or isnt an issue. i had the same point of veiw while leveling to 80 and completely lost it at cap.

ituhata.6830:

robot was apparently not around for SWTOR release. That was a doozy.

Oh i was there lol…but orr….orr is really really bad. As bad as swtor end game was it wasnt unplayable like orr is.

Hawken.7932:

robot.9134:

Hawken.7932:

@robot: lol, and yet my guild of 200+ people disagree with you, and are loving every minute of it on the whole.

yea how many of those 200 have not rerolled at all and play just their main?

Obvious fanboy is obvious. I’m sure you speak 100% for over 200 people. Such bs. 200+ people that “love every minute” ? lol move on

Not that it matters. I know large guilds that have left and gone back to other MMO’s, or just shelved the game temporarily. So whats your point? There are different opinions but don’t act like the problems aren’t real.

I judge the consensus of the guild based on the guild chat, which is pretty positive on the whole. I also note how few people have left, as you say, to other MMOs. Attendance has been strong and hasn’t really dropped much that I could notice.

Maybe you see problems — I see a great game with a few minor issues which are, in my experience playing MMOs over the past 8 years, pretty normal.

Common issues ive seen in game /map chats, guild chats, and on forums…

People are bored @ lvl 80 with the different grinds. (token, badges,karma, crafting mats) So they reroll hoping things will be fixed soon.

Same for people frustrated with class imbalances.

Also Gw2 as much as i ACTUALLY do like it… Is far more broken in the last zones/lvl cap zones than any other MMo ive seen released in quite some time.

its actually the first time i can remember that content was this broken all around….in most dieing mmo’s people complain about content not being released quick enough…here the stuff we got is already horrible.

hrhomer.2037:

I’ve only just got my first character to 20, never having played the Beta, nor the first GW. I’m enjoying it very much, and am having a lot of fun laughing at the nutters that are kittening about how the game stinks, after sinking hundreds of hours into it…

And we are laughing at you because you think you know better when you don’t have any end game experience. Most complaints arent focused at the leveling experience. it is mostly 70+ and Orr/end game.

As far as I can remember… I dont think there has been an mmo that people werent excited about in the leveling phase. Especially the first 25% to level cap…gimme a break.

Hawken.7932:

@robot: lol, and yet my guild of 200+ people disagree with you, and are loving every minute of it on the whole.

yea how many of those 200 have not rerolled at all and play just their main?

Obvious fanboy is obvious. I’m sure you speak 100% for over 200 people. Such bs. 200+ people that “love every minute” ? lol move on

Not that it matters. I know large guilds that have left and gone back to other MMO’s, or just shelved the game temporarily. So whats your point? There are different opinions but don’t act like the problems aren’t real.

Wryscher.1432:

robot.9134:

cmerc.2081:

I wouldn’t say I’m having the best gaming time of my life by any means, but I do find it sad how many people can’t find all the good things that this game offers. I’m having a lot of fun still and expect to for a while yet.

I think people are more irritated at this point with anets communication skills.

Patch notes are vague. They were not prepared in general for all of the bugs, class balancing issues, bots, exploits etcetc.

Its a red flag and they should have prepd. They should have been multi tasking both bugs and class balance but im guessing they either dont have the priorities straight OR they dont have the staff(go figure they have an ad on the front page “NOW HIRING”).

Its worse than any average MMO launch….even when comparing to other failed mmo’s.

Ive actually felt it was better then any MMO launch i’ve played through. But everyones perceptions are different.

I thought that too until 60+ minus a few annoying de bugs. Little did i know that was nothing compared to the issues in later zones.

Its one thing to reach level cap in an MMO and complain about content just after release….but this goes beyond adding NEW content….the content for release is unplayable or grindy/boring.

it’s not like people have to “rush to 80” either. Gw2 and especially gw1 had extremely short lvling to get to cap compared to MMO’s so end game should have been that much more polished.

They rushed it in order to beat wow xpac release…simple as that. and No people are bored and annoyed….but they got their $60.

The game is NOT fine. It is largely what Anet said it wouldnt be.

No more cookie cutter builds? HAHA I called that bs way before release ever happened.

No grind? again…big joke. If you dont think people are grinding for karma, tokens, badges, or crafting mats then you are in denial OR havent been to ORR….Yes ORR….the biggest joke in the game. The mindless karma DE train.

Boring. Stop being fan boys and be realistic. I like the game but these things need to be fixed. People are grinding out mats and badges and tokens worse than other compared MMO’s.

cmerc.2081:

I wouldn’t say I’m having the best gaming time of my life by any means, but I do find it sad how many people can’t find all the good things that this game offers. I’m having a lot of fun still and expect to for a while yet.

I think people are more irritated at this point with anets communication skills.

Patch notes are vague. They were not prepared in general for all of the bugs, class balancing issues, bots, exploits etcetc.

Its a red flag and they should have prepd. They should have been multi tasking both bugs and class balance but im guessing they either dont have the priorities straight OR they dont have the staff(go figure they have an ad on the front page “NOW HIRING”).

Its worse than any average MMO launch….even when comparing to other failed mmo’s.

Shinxy.5689:

If you already sped through all the content and are at 80 have 160+ hours logged in after only about 30 days of the game being out you only have yourself to blame (and I’d question where you’re finding all that time to play computer games. Its a game not a job, people!)

This is getting old. Who are you to judge people based on playtime? The game is supposed to be ready regardless and a ton of people are at 80. It is very easy to get.

But seriously….what does it matter if someone plays 5+ hours a day? Some people watch 3-4 hours of tv EASY in a day. Is that better use of their time?

Get over it. 1-70 is ez and fun. Its not our fault for playing more than the average casual player….its anet for not being prepared for end game.

lol…^^ beat me to it. Karma is only REASONABLY fast if you join the Orr farm train going on. Even with karma buffs its a grind… you can’t tell me farming loops is fun OR intended.

Its garbage.

I have an 80 ranger. I’ve pretty much decided to reroll until 80 looks more fun and character balance starts again.

It bothers me that they nerfed lb so quickly without testing the results. It took players to point out to the community that LB dmg >sb….

Dark Revan.7634:

robot.9134:

Ill make this short. I am in the same boat and played well into all classes except elem/necro.

You can’t do that right now. Its going to fail. Why? All classes are “broken” in some way shape or form and right now for the most part all they are doing is fixing bugs or nerfing. Which makes it more frustrating because buffs and class balancing are needed too. From what im seeing most classes are pigeon holed into 1-2 cookie cutter builds and you are forced to settle. Any class you play is going to have their “huge issues”.

Me for example… I’m shelving my 80 ranger until either longbow or beastmaster become actually viable. Right now LB is underwhelming and boring vs sb.

Also 80 content is garbage.

Sounds to me like you just don’t like the game, which makes me wonder why you’re playing. There are more than 1-2 builds in the professions and you aren’t forced to do anything or go into a specific build, why don’t you try experimenting different ones.

To the OP, so far I’ve been sort of going melee with my ranger and switching to ranged for tougher fights or when I’m struggling. Also a mesmer will/can look like any other light armor profession…..it depends on what gear you equip.

Im not happy with the game in the state it is in. Thats completely different.

Obviously you can any spec how you like but that is why cookie cutter is so hated. People are going to choose the most effective build(s). The different builds aren’t close enough.

It was a big red flag to me when the devs shotgun’d the LB nerf and didnt even take the time to test and see that the DPS was lower than SB after…. It has taken players testing it. THAT is annoying. Is it our job to make this game better? The nerf was quick…lets see how long it takes to buff the LB again…or even worse nerf SB.

Are you guys not 80? Do you not see the massive grind that is already there for exotics? lol Dungeon grinds, grinding for crafting mats which are a pain because of a flawed farming code, wvw badge grind?, boring karma grind? not to mention the biggest grind of them all …legendaries… open your eyes… this is NOT any different than other MMO grinds except for the balance in stats. Some mmo’s have roughly the same difference in stats as well.

This aspect of GW2 is NOT revolutionary and its NOT what they promised.

The game could be more fun but a lot of people (of varying opinions on rewards) are not happy with this massive grind. If you do not know what im talking about and dont have 80 experience then you can’t comment. You just don’t know how bad it is.

Ordika.9513:

robot.9134:

If a business thinks it doesnt HAVE TO keep customers because they are basically doing good enough…. thats just a horrible way to settle with your products quality and will drive customers away. They obviously want this game to be more successful than gw1.

Not having to and not wanting to are two completely different things and have completely different designs/goals.

Skinner Box MMO’s have to keep people playing because they rely on subs.

F2P MMO’s have to keep people playing because they rely on large amounts of cash shop purchases.

B2P with cash shop don’t have to (they want to) because their profits are mostly made via initial sales, and expansion sales (these do not require retention as all current players will probably buy and a large set of previous players are likely to take the plunge).

So a B2P isn’t beholden to their customers, they are free to make the game they want. Now that doesn’t mean they will completely ignore you (and I never insinuated they would) because happy playing customer are more likely to spend on the cash shop, but temper your expectations accordingly. Phrase your request accordingly (saying they will fail is a sure way to be ignored), and most of all work with them withing the framework which they have laid. ANet has not laid a skinner box framework and are unlikely to change that.

If a customer is not satisfied with the company they are dealing with they will leave and use another product. Regardless of the product. Customer service is huge. Even with b2p it is simply not enough to put in half the effort with the understanding that they can easily get players to buy an expansion.

I don’t think that is their focus but the pressure to react quicker is just not there. Also i hope they are smart enough to understand that if the initial Gw2 game is a bad experience then their customers probably wont waste 60$ again trying to gamble on the expansion. There is just far too much competition in several different genres.

These posts are for discussion and not so much to light a fire under anet. I know better. I’m over trying to push for the right changes where needed because thats in their hands.

Either they are choosing to place these big issues on the back burner they are fully aware but dont have the resources to resolve them. Either way its poor planning and even when comparing to previous MMO’s …I grade them a D+. I’ll be nice.

The skinner box debate…

Too many people tie “skinner box” to how wows vertical progression worked in some areas. You say gw2 doesnt have that quality… but thats false. Everything is reward based! Not only that but the grind is worse for a much lower reward! lol Thats one of the huge complaints at the moment with karama /mat/token/badge farming.

The only difference is gear doesnt give a much higher advantage compared to other MMO’s…. GW2 is far from the first mmo to try this and the bigger problem is gear becomes a none issue at 80. There needs to be something else as a reward besides armor skins. Maybe not for you…but for enough other players that it would be a problem.

Ordika.9513:

robot.9134:

They obviously aren’t going to scrap it and copy wow but they are going to do what works and keeps customers. Right now a lot of customers are bored and not happy with end game.

The fallacy of your argument is that they don’t need to keep customers, they need to have returning customers. No sub fee means they rely on box sales, and the 20/80 rule (20% of the player base will fund the other 80% play time via cash shop sales). The beauty of the 20/80 rule is that it does not rely on a set size in player base.

Returning customer psychology is much different from retention. Therefore if they focus on fixing bugs, with enough free content release, then they will most likely be able to get enough sales to justify an expansion. This business mode (notice I didn’t say game design philosophy) worked well for GW1 and also works well for most online shooters.

If a business thinks it doesnt HAVE TO keep customers because they are basically doing good enough…. thats just a horrible way to settle with your products quality and will drive customers away. They obviously want this game to be more successful than gw1.

deriver.5381:

Show me one flawless mmo launch, just one… Actually, better yet, give me one 5+ years old mmo without class imbalance and bugs…

The reason GW2 is so different from GW1 is that they never wanted both to compete against each other. GW2 is also a game bound to break well estabilished concepts, but obviously it won’t ever happen for everyone. There will always be people unhappy about this game and they won’t ever be able to completely fix this.

Also, if you read more closely the posts of many many supporters of the gw2 playstyle, you will see that a lot of them never played GW1.

Better get your facts straight…

My complaint wasn’t that MMO’s have bugs. Its that this game was rushed and highly unfinished or thought out. It had far more problems than most any other MMO that ive played when it comes to end game content. 1-2 weeks is quite a bit of time to make players wait when Orr was/is almost unplayable or just a boring broken zerg. It was definitely a huge red flag when they waited to test optimization til the last minute and the game was unplayable for a good chunk of the community.

A lot of people didnt come from gw1. They wanted new blood. It was needed to make changes in order to raise success with the sequel. It’s not a non profit….people want more money.

Its impossible to come up with a ratio of unhappy reward focused players vs happy players who are happy with the gear progression but i see a lot more people who are aren’t happy enough or going back to other mmo’s and are bored. It also seems that more of the happy customers havent really seen how bland everything is at 80 yet. Pre 80 everything looks great minus a few bugs.

Bottom line is…I can be happy with the game we are supposed to have…but they are taking their time getting there. Right now the classes are cookie cutter (which they said wouldnt happen) and there is very few things to do at 80. Its all farming and grinding. Spvp Tpvp? joke… the class i play forces me to focus on only a few specific builds. the 2-3 variants id like to try are broken or to underpowered to compete or both.

Too many mmo’s put waaay too much emphasis on the pre release and release but dont put nearly enough thought into how they are going to handle post release. There is no reason that we can’t have more class balance in these last few patches.

Most MMO’s fail because they fall behind from the very beginning! Customers have such a short attention span that this kills the player base quick. example… swtor? dw3? war?

Porky.5021:

Doctor Ivo Robotnik.3879:

Hate to be blunt about it. If there is no reward in what you are doing, then why do it in the first place? I know that what I just stated might be considered selfish, but honestly, the human race generally is selfish.

People who are quit willing to state they refuse to do things that don’t reward them, then spend their time playing games are strange.

Shouldn’t you be working or getting an education? Something that rewards you?

Because a lot of people actually like the game but recognize that there are much needed changes? Lets stop being ridiculous… i think the motive is quite obvious and people complain because they would like some change.

I can already see the reply to this…

“This is GW2 not wow…If you want to play wow go play it…”

This isnt wow, this isnt swtor, this isnt aoc, aion, L1, l2, UO etc etc… SO WHAT. Arenanet went after the big market. To make money! They made changes and GW2 is much diff compared to GW1 in order to draw in new players. So they need to take into account changes and listen to the other playerbase. Doesn’t matter if its how you want the game to be… Its the demand of the customer and there are lot more than just ex g1 players here.

They obviously aren’t going to scrap it and copy wow but they are going to do what works and keeps customers. Right now a lot of customers are bored and not happy with end game.

In addition, the release has been horrible. If beta was done to fix issues/bugs etc….i would have hated to play in beta. I’m not even talking about Orr and this has got to be the most bugged out release i have played in years! I almost miss subscription based MMO’s because keeping customer subscriptions at least gives the devs quite a bit more incentive to expedite important issues.

Even the non loot focused players are tired of class imbalances and end game content. The speed in which they are responding to important issues is very slow. They obviously rushed an unfinished product to beat out the wow expansion.

They knew they were releasing a broken product and since they don’t have subscriptions its all about initial cost. Smart but shady imo.

Ill make this short. I am in the same boat and played well into all classes except elem/necro.

You can’t do that right now. Its going to fail. Why? All classes are “broken” in some way shape or form and right now for the most part all they are doing is fixing bugs or nerfing. Which makes it more frustrating because buffs and class balancing are needed too. From what im seeing most classes are pigeon holed into 1-2 cookie cutter builds and you are forced to settle. Any class you play is going to have their “huge issues”.

Me for example… I’m shelving my 80 ranger until either longbow or beastmaster become actually viable. Right now LB is underwhelming and boring vs sb.

Also 80 content is garbage.

Porky.5021:

robot.9134:

people aren’t saying that it “wont be fun with out gear”.

Actually…you said that:

most people play mmo’s for loot… not for character skins. Skills make PvP fun…but so does the gear you collect which also improves your character. They took out a large chunk of the equation. People are getting bored quicker now. It doesnt work.

Collecting new loot is fun as hell. The majority of any MMO customer base will agree with that.

No… I said that it is a factor and a part of the equation that makes it fun. YOU made the claim that people are arguing “no gear progression = no fun” and its a lie and out of context.

Obviously gear progression is necessary in MMO’s because GW2 did take it on…problem people are having is ….what now at 80? Its completely gone and replaced with a grind just to be normal. Thats no good.

For Faux Sake.8457:

robot.9134:

About rpgs…my point is that stories make a game good but what makes them great is the character development. If new loot wasnt coming and new skills werent available they would have not been nearly as successful.

The game’s been out for a month and people are already screaming for another installment.

LMAO….“people” huh? no “people” are screaming for Orr to be functional… for bugs to be fixed and classes to be balanced. If people are asking for more content it is because level cap content is bugged and boring.

deriver.5381:

robot.9134:

deriver.5381:

Non reward-centric games can work, they just seem to catter to a different kind of player. The most fun I ever had on a MMO was back in 98, playing UO. No other game ever came close to it so far. And UO was a completely reward-free sandbox enviroment.

UO was a great game but it WAS reward-centric! You gotta be kidding me. Economy was great…treasure hunting for great gear that was highly sought after… housing and real estate was nuts…just to name a few.

People have to get off this idea that “wow ruined MMo’s” lol… WoW didnt ruin mmo’s they just made a very very successful one. People were reward focused “chasing the carrot” WAAAAY before wow.

One simple question.

Would people have played 100’s of hours on zelda and any of the final fantasy series if it weren’t for the loot? if it weren’t for the character progression/development?

YES!!!! but it wouldnt have been NEARLY as successful. Add rewards….add loot. Boom. you have a hit.

Its not evil. Its fun. Is that just my opinion? Yup. But its shared by more of the customer base than not.

How exactly UO was reward-centric? I didn’t follow you on this one. Maybe you are talking about the UO as it is now, after so many patches? I know they changed a lot, but I’m talking about what UO was back in 97, 98, when loot meant nothing. The best weapon in the game could only give you +6 to dmg and you could lose it anytime, anywhere.

People walked the streets in rags, with minimal gear and reagents… Not sure what you mean by UO being reward-centric.

Also, about offline RPG games, I do play them for the fun of playing, else I would never be any fan of any AD&D game series other than NWN (which is very reward-centric).

I dont play private server but i played on the original servers. It didn’t have tier sets but it DEFINITELY had sought after gear and dungeons to farm. Not only that but it had very sought after pets that people would tame and sell. It wasnt as drastic but it was far from this “horizontal progression” thing when “everyone is equal”. Much more chr progression on the gear side. the gear did definitely have a diff in combat.

About rpgs…my point is that stories make a game good but what makes them great is the character development. If new loot wasnt coming and new skills werent available they would have not been nearly as successful.

Porky.5021:

FarFarAway.6579:

There is no reason the game can’t cater to two different types of players. They just need to add in some additional incentives for end game content. It doesn’t have to be gear progression. It can be other things that players care about. Titles, mounts, pets, whatever. They just need to be creative and think up incentives that don’t contradict their basic premises about requiring players to grind content to compete. I’m sure they can do it. They clearly have a talented crew working for them.

This is fine. I don’t have a problem with titles, cosmetics, pets, mounts, etc. I guess most people don’t, although you never know.

The problem is some people are saying they want better gear. They need to grind for gear or it’s no fun. If they can’t put more time in the game and get better equipment as a reward, they aren’t having fun.

That’s all I’m against in this game. I don’t want time to become the one big factor in who gets the best gear and therefore has the best chance to win.

people aren’t saying that it “wont be fun with out gear”. The flaw that people are pointing is the same one that a lot of people called them out on before release.

What happens at level cap when everyone is 80 with max gear? People WILL get bored…and already are. Repetitive pvp maps and WvW is not going to keep customers logging in daily.

Some people don’t play daily… No1 is saying you have to…. but if you want to have the real fun…one of the bigger selling points of the game is competition in wvw…. and your server isnt going to do well with a server of casual weekend warriors. Thats a fact.

Also….the grind is here already…and its bad

deriver.5381:

Non reward-centric games can work, they just seem to catter to a different kind of player. The most fun I ever had on a MMO was back in 98, playing UO. No other game ever came close to it so far. And UO was a completely reward-free sandbox enviroment.

UO was a great game but it WAS reward-centric! You gotta be kidding me. Economy was great…treasure hunting for great gear that was highly sought after… housing and real estate was nuts…just to name a few.

People have to get off this idea that “wow ruined MMo’s” lol… WoW didnt ruin mmo’s they just made a very very successful one. People were reward focused “chasing the carrot” WAAAAY before wow.

One simple question.

Would people have played 100’s of hours on zelda and any of the final fantasy series if it weren’t for the loot? if it weren’t for the character progression/development?

YES!!!! but it wouldnt have been NEARLY as successful. Add rewards….add loot. Boom. you have a hit.

Its not evil. Its fun. Is that just my opinion? Yup. But its shared by more of the customer base than not.

deriver.5381:

Non reward-centric games can work, they just seem to catter to a different kind of player. The most fun I ever had on a MMO was back in 98, playing UO. No other game ever came close to it so far. And UO was a completely reward-free sandbox enviroment.

UO was a great game but it WAS reward-centric! You gotta be kidding me. Economy was great…treasure hunting for great gear that was highly sought after… housing and real estate was nuts…just to name a few.

People have to get off this idea that “wow ruined MMo’s” lol… WoW didnt ruin mmo’s they just made a very very successful one. People were reward focused “chasing the carrot” WAAAAY before wow.

One simple question.

Would people have played 100’s of hours on zelda and any of the final fantasy series if it weren’t for the loot? if it weren’t for the character progression/development?

YES!!!! but it wouldnt have been NEARLY as successful. Add rewards….add loot. Boom. you have a hit.

Its not evil. Its fun. Is that just my opinion? Yup. But its shared by more of the customer base than not.

Porky.5021:

So I don’t understand why you bought GW2.

Were you under the impression that there was a long gear grind available that would differentiate you from the people who have less time than you by means of bigger stats?

A simple check of the GW2 site, the articles, the dev blogs, and the videos would have told you this wasn’t the game for you.

I’m not trying to be mean, but I don’t understand some of you.

The game’s design concept was clear: No lengthy grind for items with stats. If you wanted to look different from everyone there would be a grind available for you, but the top level items stat-wise would be available to all without a lengthy grind.

This was not a secret, nor was it ambiguous.

I bought the game with the mindset I have had with every other failed MMO that i have played in the past 4-5 years. “meh….$60 is well spent compared to console if it lasts me 2-3 months”

Expect the worst and hope for the best.

I was a bit curious about how it would turn out also. I am not disappointed about the core game although rewards could be MUCH better. I am disappointed with how the customer service and dev reaction times turned out.

Communication has dropped significantly. Patches are spaced out further and they are more quick to nerf than buff where needed even in desperate areas. Priorities don’t seem to be straight. Slow reaction to key issues leads to boredom in the player base and that kills mmo’s. If you are going to be slow at fixing the issues then you better be sure that the player base has something to keep them busy and at the moment…Orr is a disgrace.

Porky.5021:

Bring the same gear as everyone else to PVP and prove you know how to fight. Nothing wrong with that.

This argument is old. Gear vs skill….

Any halfway decent player knows when gear is carrying the player. They also know when a player is talented and can tear it up. Regardless of the gear they are wearing. A lot of people actually like the challenge of taking down top geared players who have the skill to top it off. Its also satisfying to take down a high geared player who is horrible… Balancing out everyone to skill alone is almost too bland and is comparable to an FPS….and most people play MMO’s for character progression. Thats one of the huge differences between FPS’s and MMO’s.

Im not going to argue which is more fun acquiring the gear or the skill…to each his own… but to completely remove one of those factors is bad news and leave one big long term problem that is already surfacing. Boredom.

DusK.3849:

robot.9134:

Jonnyguitar.1684:

Im more reward centered, a carrot on a stick player.

and there is nothing wrong with that at all….

While true, there is something wrong with wanting to completely alter a game that was made from the ground up to cater to a demographic whose idea of a good game runs opposite to that mindset.

It’d be a lot like going to the Street Fighter forums on Capcom-Unity and going “This game sucks because it’s not 3D, and I’m more of a 3D fighter player, so you should rebuild the game to cater to what I want instead of yada yada”.

They said a lot of things that this game “would be” but it is not, though.

I’m not saying they should add a dungeon finder and start doing vertical progression but if they don’t then they better fix the little content they actually have. The content they have is so broken it really doesnt leave much room for anything else. The masses are waiting for patches to fix content or broken class mechanics.

This game was not supposed to have a grind. This game was also not supposed to have a cookie cutter aspect. This game has a bigger grind with less rewards than any other mmo ive played in quite awhile. It also has more of a pigeon holed feeling too.

The way they decided to setup skills and talents does not leave for much variation contrary to what they preeched.

People are getting bored with useless skills and under powered / underwhelming weapon skills. Some are just boring…but your STUCK with them after level 3-4 which you can easily unlock all of your skills lol. You can only do so much with the traits and trait points.

The only cure for peoples frustration and boredom will be for them to get moving and fix the bugs/class balance ASAP. Content is not coming anytime soon so they need to get on the stuff that matters.

Slow patches on release …kill mmo’s. I would have gladly paid subscription if it meant them hiring more class managers or just more employees to focus on bot reports/banning or bugs.

But i guess they got our initial $60 so its no rush…

Jonnyguitar.1684:

Im more reward centered, a carrot on a stick player.

and there is nothing wrong with that at all…. people on these boards like to make it seem like you are broken or “wrong” if you think like this.

It is human nature to be competitive and part of what makes ANY mmo successful is character development and progression. This game almost has 0 of that after a very short time. End game is very limited and repetitive.

I see it being more geared toward casual play vs the real competitive scene imo

Porky.5021:

robot.9134:

People are getting bored quicker now. It doesnt work.

Collecting new loot is fun as hell. The majority of any MMO customer base will agree with that.

Maybe for some of you.

I was just in WvW. Tons of people having fun. No one crying about their lack of loot or how bad the game is because they can’t outstat the other side.

Just people running around slaughtering each other and having fun doing it.

Give it another few months… it will only last so long before people get bored with the same maps and limited results. “Reward” need to equal or be better than “effort” and as time goes on… like someone already said…fun has diminishing returns.

Dont get me wrong though… im not saying wvw isnt fun. I’m just saying that they are fighting an uphill battle removing that entire loot aspect from an mmo. Horizontal progression was a horrible idea for a player base that has proven historically that vertical is what keeps long term attention. People LOVE to brag and compete for new gear, progression, skill, and even for smaller things like max dmg/healing etc. GW2 Doesnt leave a whole lot left compared to other MMO’s.

Not only that but the track records for new mmos the past 4-5 years isnt exactly stellar. They tried way too hard to reinvent the wheel.