Guild Wars 2

Still rolling a condition build… and still pwning… I am starting to think most players aren’t capable of building their own Viable Mesmers without a guide.

25K HP, 2.7k attack, 2k + con, 2.1k defense….

I have to disagree about the focus being weak… simply put look at the CD’s on the main hand/offhand skills… in order of speed (with or without traits) staff > sword/sword > sword/focus > sword/pistol > sword/torch. Depending on the build the person is running—in my opinion any build—this is crucial because this dictates how fast you can pump out illusions and execute skills.

Another thing… with sword/focus, not only do you get the speed/push/pull/snare with curtain, place the warden first and drop the curtain on the warden (or any other fields for that matter) and the warden now becomes ranged (900) AoE due to whirls… Using leap finisher through the curtain grants retaliation (with sword 3, this boon is applied on cast and swap)… poison fields do weakness (leap), chaos fields do chaos shield (leap), fire does fire shield (leap), etc…

For PvP I really haven’t been able to find a comparable replacement to the focus as an offhand, I’d like to transition to the sword/sword and staff, but I can’t do without speed/push/pull/snare ability of curtain and the whirl finishers which includes an AoE condition removal (light) and fire/poison/chaos bolts :/

grimmson.9154:

hm I’m looking for a new condition build since the boarderline op 0 20 20 0 30 rabid confusion bomber gets a little bit boring :\
perhaps carrion is not as bad as i thought. less crits and less bleeds, but more damage with all attacks (shatters more powerfull, phantasms worth summoning again…)

BUT sinican, I really suggest to use pizzas over all other food with a condition build. the additional condition duration is way too good to pass.

I really haven’t evaluated all my food options, i guess a bit more are available since I done cooking on my first toon.

wads.5730:

hold on, what armor set gives you maximal condition damage, toughness and vitality without taking any power or precision?

Not suggesting that… toughness is through traits aka the 25-30 points in chaos to get chaotic transference to convert 5% toughness into condition damage.

Carrion and Chrysocolla gems give Power, Vit, Condition damage. The Undead runes also gives a little toughness and a lot of condition damage and converts another 5% of toughness into condition damage on top of that.

For food and potions using soup for another 100 con damage and 70 vitality as well as a tuning crystal to convert 6% of you vitality (from carrion/traits/runes) into more condition damage and converts another 4% of toughness into condition damage.

From all of the sources that is 14% of toughness converted to condition damage and 6% of vitality converted to condition damage. What this essentually does is allows you to focus your stat distribution into con damage, vitality, and toughness and not lose out on extra con damage from the distribution into vitality and toughness.

Embolism.8106:

As I thought, you were taking consumables and sigils into account. Since those can be gained by any build, they are irrelevant. My numbers take into account only equipment, nothing else.

Rabid equipment has exactly the same amount of CondDmg as Carrion, and is in fact superior to Carrion for condition Mesmers because it provides Precision instead of Power; allowing you to proc Sigil of Earth and Sharper Images.

I also notice that you don’t use Deceptive Evasion (although that is obvious from the fact you don’t have Sharper Images). IMO that’s a huge disadvantage especially if you plan to run Shatter-heavy, simply because constant Shattering is not possible without the incredible Clone generation DE gives. I daresay a condition Mesmer using Sharper Images would Shatter far more than you do simply because you cannot keep up with their Clone generation.

I suggest you run something like 0/20/20/0/30 and use Rabid instead of Carrion where possible. You’ll find it is a significant improvement DPS-wise over your current build.

crit is useless for the raw condition dmg it puts out… also you are still ignoring the synergy of vit/tough build and conversion to cond dmg via traits… that means every point invested in either of these will indirectly contribute to con dmg (vit on carrion), you cannot do that with precision and again con damage can NOT crit…. Having your images apply a weak bleed 50% of the time is crap compared to an overall increase o the conditions you apply, if you can get the same damage from 5 stacks why would you want to have to do this so you need 10 stacks to do the same dmg.

I don’t need DE to have clones/illusions in your face nonstop.
You waste so much trying to get that crit and you don’t even realize it.

grimmson.9154:

sinican.9250:

Additionally, really only 120 damage bleeding tics with a condition build… umm i guess you lost about half your condition damage in crit/precision. Bleeds tix at 225+ a tic, poison at nearly 1k a tic, and burning upwards of 2k a tic. Sounds like you aren’t much conditions for a condition build :/

could you please elaborate on this?
I know in wvw crazy numbers are possible, but I’m running full cond build with rabid exotics and max cond damage I can achieve is about 3k but that with 25 sigil stack and 20 might stacks, I don’t really need to say that this is not the “normal” condition damage number.
and even with 3k cond damage I can’t reach those numbers.
If you could help me there it would be awesome

I went full out on condition dmg skipping crit/prec all together… Next primary stat I chose was vit because vit is the only thing that can essentially absorb both direct dmg and condition dmg seeing as con dmg ignores armor. Third stat is toughness (my armor is actually more around 2100 not the sub 2k i was reporting earlier) My gear is all carrion, and I use traits/rune that covert toughness/vitality to condition dmg. I use an alternative set o build up condition dmg another 25 stacks (250 con dmg), I also the soups for food (100 con + 70 vit), and tuning crystals (potion) that stacks with the food giving me another 6% of my vit as con dmg and 4% of my toughness as con dmg. These are the only self buffs I consider as base* everything else (might, fury, etc I never consider base, only additive). I skipped both power and precision, the only power bonuses I am getting are from carrion runes and other outside sources, yet I can still base my attack at 2700+, my health and the little bit of toughness is my survival and still contributes to con dmg via traits/food/potions. I commonly run 0/0/25/15/30 or 0/0/30/10/30.

P.S. I am reporting by memory the best numbers I have seen as I assume everyone does… What I will do though; surprised that no one else runs similar to me, is keep an eye over my combat log and start averaging it out to be closer to actual projected damage and provide an SS of my bleeds/poison/burning/confusion tics so we don’t have an issue…

Embolism.8106:

sinican.9250:

Embolism.8106:

sinican.9250:

Embolism.8106:

sinican.9250:

For condition build I run carrion all the way… no need for crit because conditions aren’t able to crit, only direct damage can. So i avoid prec/crit gear all together… I am also using the undead runes.

Sharper Images.

Condition build uses shatters non stop to keep conditions stacked… our illusions rarely go through 2 attack cycles before they go boom and again crit is useless for unless your damage is mostly direct damage (physical melee/ranged).

additionally, ignoring precision/crit allows the focus of vit/toughness… way more viable for a condition spreader.

The only condition Shatters can stack is Confusion, which cannot be relied upon as your sole source of condition damage. With Sharper Images you can maintain 10+ stacks of Bleeding with 3 GS/Sword/Staff Clones out, and it’s extremely easy to maintain 3 at all times with Deceptive Evasion and your low CD Clone skills.

Staff Clones in particular also inflict Burning and give you Might and Fury, and boons on you also affect Clones; so they pretty much fuel their own damage.

Besides, you can Shatter as well as maintain 3+ Clones without hassle if you time your Shatters to when you’re ready to conjure 3 Clones in a second.

Also, there is no prefix that gives both Toughness and Vitality with CondDmg. Rabid (CondDmg-Precision-Toughness) is as good as Carrion (CondDmg-Power-Vitality) defensively and does not have a sub-optimal stat (Power).

Ilussionary Retribution DURP!

ALL Shatters also cause confusion (per illusion detonated)… umm yeah, GS is stupid for a condition build, bleed is one of the weakest conditions until it get upwards of 15+ stacks, easier to maintain all conditions with a proper shattering condition build.

Are you kidding about clone damage… lol 1-5 damage a hit from clones rofl.

I said “the only condition Shatters can stack is Confusion”. Illusionary Retribution inflicts Confusion. Not sure what you’re saying here.

Bleeding is the most reliable damaging condition. With 10 stacks that’s ~1200 damage every second without Might, and you can easily achieve higher stacks. Staff Clones and your own WoC can also inflict regular Burning, dealing ~700 damage for each application.

Might increases condition damage, and with Sharper Images Fury increases the chances of inflicting extra Bleeding. So yes, Staff Clones do fuel their own Burning/Bleeding damage by giving you Might and Fury.

Overall, a condition build that utilises Sharper Images can do everything a non-SI condition build can, except better. Rabid is the strongest stat distribution for condition Mesmers, Carrion should only be used if Rabid is not available.

sinican.9250:

It’s only single target and it has a 30 sec CD…. it’s more beneficial to just use another chaos field with projectile finishers to apply confusion (from you and everyone else firing through it) and use light fields for using jump finishers through to apply retaliation (to whomever uses finisher through it).

It’s a pbAoE. Projectile finishers generally only have a 20% chance of proccing, plus the Mesmer itself does not have an autoattack projectile finisher.

There are many issues you are failing to consider here with the mesmer mechanics, and that poison/burning/confusion scales more wiht condition damage than does bleeding as well as it only takes 1 stack of burning/poison and confusion stacks easy and is easy to keep up by staggering.

As far as leap, stomp, projectile, and whirl finishers, there are plenty of skills (skills/traited) that enable the Mesmer to synergize extremely well without another play… when other players are present the fields are way more impactful for the party.

GS bleed stack is super weak, sorry, it isn’t better by a long shot, a single condition remove screws your entire build. I have no less than 5 conditions rolling on my targets not including the other debuffs (weakness, crippled, imobilized, daze, chilled, etc.)

Additionally, really only 120 damage bleeding tics with a condition build… umm i guess you lost about half your condition damage in crit/precision. Bleeds tix at 225+ a tic, poison at nearly 1k a tic, and burning upwards of 2k a tic. Sounds like you aren’t much conditions for a condition build :/

Arekai.5698:

Wow that pain inverter thing sounds kitten strong.
Why do other races only have bad racial skills?

It’s only single target and it has a 30 sec CD…. it’s more beneficial to just use another chaos field with projectile finishers to apply confusion (from you and everyone else firing through it) and use light fields for using jump finishers through to apply retaliation (to whomever uses finisher through it).

Embolism.8106:

sinican.9250:

Embolism.8106:

sinican.9250:

For condition build I run carrion all the way… no need for crit because conditions aren’t able to crit, only direct damage can. So i avoid prec/crit gear all together… I am also using the undead runes.

Sharper Images.

Condition build uses shatters non stop to keep conditions stacked… our illusions rarely go through 2 attack cycles before they go boom and again crit is useless for unless your damage is mostly direct damage (physical melee/ranged).

additionally, ignoring precision/crit allows the focus of vit/toughness… way more viable for a condition spreader.

The only condition Shatters can stack is Confusion, which cannot be relied upon as your sole source of condition damage. With Sharper Images you can maintain 10+ stacks of Bleeding with 3 GS/Sword/Staff Clones out, and it’s extremely easy to maintain 3 at all times with Deceptive Evasion and your low CD Clone skills.

Staff Clones in particular also inflict Burning and give you Might and Fury, and boons on you also affect Clones; so they pretty much fuel their own damage.

Besides, you can Shatter as well as maintain 3+ Clones without hassle if you time your Shatters to when you’re ready to conjure 3 Clones in a second.

Also, there is no prefix that gives both Toughness and Vitality with CondDmg. Rabid (CondDmg-Precision-Toughness) is as good as Carrion (CondDmg-Power-Vitality) defensively and does not have a sub-optimal stat (Power).

Ilussionary Retribution DURP!

ALL Shatters also cause confusion (per illusion detonated)… umm yeah, GS is stupid for a condition build, bleed is one of the weakest conditions until it get upwards of 15+ stacks, easier to maintain all conditions with a proper shattering condition build.

Are you kidding about clone damage… lol 1-5 damage a hit from clones rofl.

Embolism.8106:

sinican.9250:

For condition build I run carrion all the way… no need for crit because conditions aren’t able to crit, only direct damage can. So i avoid prec/crit gear all together… I am also using the undead runes.

Sharper Images.

Condition build uses shatters non stop to keep conditions stacked… our illusions rarely go through 2 attack cycles before they go boom and again crit is useless for unless your damage is mostly direct damage (physical melee/ranged).

additionally, ignoring precision/crit allows the focus of vit/toughness… way more viable for a condition spreader.

For condition build I run carrion all the way… no need for crit because conditions aren’t able to crit, only direct damage can. So i avoid prec/crit gear all together… I am also using the undead runes.

With the undead runes you could also use toughness trait like as well as something with power/toughness/MF or con/tough/vit (not sure that set exists though)… point is for condition build crit is pretty much useless. Additionally, conditions cannot be mitigate by toughness, so i went vit as well for a big health pool to live through high burst and survive extreme conditions…. 25k+ hp, 2100+ con, 2700+ att, 1700 def…

Vexor.3640:

AmateurGod.5403:

snip
Phantasmal Haste (trait): Phantasms recharge 20% faster | Trait X (needs 25 points in the Illusions tree)
snip

I believe that trait increases the Attack Speed of the phantasms. Not the skill cooldown for the mesmer. If you want improved casting time you’ll need 5pts only into the Illusions tree for Illusionists Celerity (20% for ALL illusion skills).

Which also stacks with weapon CD speed increase.

korelg.7862:

my experience:
lately i’ve taken a liking to the iWarden and as you probably know, this phantasm wont follow it’s target,

Actually, I am starting to feel they are designed that way on purpose because of their whirl finisher, it would suck if they kept moving out of the fields you place on them to benefit from their combo field whirl finishers (which are sick btw)…. Additionally, the wardens do move, but only when the target has moved more than 900 away from the warden (out of the reach of any whirl finisher range I assume).

If you are good at kiting, you can use this understanding to actually reposition your wardens, kite the move past 900, warden will reposition… profit

Reasonable argument, It sort of is a default skill to have for all builds… Though I am not sure if it is because we really need it or if it’s just because it’s a great price for how good it is.

I use fast casting at my mouse location… I have not run into this issue.

PS targeting too slow :P

Kobeathris.3645:

sinican.9250:

Clones and Phantasms are NOT pets… we are not a pet class… the whole idea you “phantasm” build people are trying to push is the idea of making phantasms as strong as pets… that is not how the Mesmer is designed. Like EnRohbi notes, shatters are the core mechanic of our entire class not a specific build, all builds should be utilizing shatters. Playing a class while excluding use of it’s core mechanic should NOT be as viable as any builds that include use of the core mechanic… Warriors don’t really make good rangers, and rangers don’t make good tanks, this isn’t restricting build diversity simply because you want to play the class as if it were some other class with different mechanics.

Shatters are not the core mechanic of the class, Illusions are. Shatters are 4 free utilities that make use of illusions in different ways. You can make a build centered around shatters, much like you can make a build centered around mantras, but that doesn’t make them the core mechanic.

Look at it this way, if shatters did not exist, mesmers would still function but with reduced damage and reduced utility. If Illusions didn’t exist, shatters COULDN’T exist.

I completely disagree, you have not made a convincing argument at all. The shatters are the core mechanic because those default abilities are by default available to any and all builds created w/o distribution of traits/skills/weapons…. The number of phantasms/clones cannot be maintained indefinitely as clones/phantasms are NOT pets they are temporary “illusions” attached to the target not the Mesmer. If anything the illusions are the utility for delivering the effects of shatters.

If illusions were to be the core mechanic then we would be a pet class and we would have the same default illusions available to all of our builds while the skills/talents would be what activated/enables alternative effects. Likely those illusions would be tied to f1-f4 being from offensive/defensive/control/escape.

There are already 3 threads on this topic in the first page of these forums… I am going to assume you are new than that you didn’t bother to read the faqs, use the search, or even bother browsing the post titles.

The point is, many of us have already contributed to this discussion and it’s rather annoying to have to keep repeating the same things over and over. Because of that you may not get all the responses and information that is already available in those posts, maybe check those first before creating a whole new thread.

Clones and Phantasms are NOT pets… we are not a pet class… the whole idea you “phantasm” build people are trying to push is the idea of making phantasms as strong as pets… that is not how the Mesmer is designed. Like EnRohbi notes, shatters are the core mechanic of our entire class not a specific build, all builds should be utilizing shatters. Playing a class while excluding use of it’s core mechanic should NOT be as viable as any builds that include use of the core mechanic… Warriors don’t really make good rangers, and rangers don’t make good tanks, this isn’t restricting build diversity simply because you want to play the class as if it were some other class with different mechanics.

Auruan.2837:

Unf. Just noticed that the link I’d pasted in is not the build I was actually using at all.
The site provided a link to a completely different build somehow. Seems to have been fixed now.

Thanks for the suggestions so far though. I’m looking into bringing Torch and Pistol along for my Orr adventures. I’ve already completed Straits so far, but it’s very bothersome to pull a lot of extra things by accident.
Torch’s extra stealth, blind and proper shattering to get clones out of bad places do help a lot!

Yeah, just remember your phantasms can do more than just stand there and tank n spank…. field combos all the way… it’s tremendous fun!

The focus 1(4) skill acts as a field… if you use sword3 through it you will get retaliation boon both ways, if you use staff 2 the same thing, if you lay focus 1(4) on your phantasm via focus 2(5) it will do whirl finishers… The ability of this class to synergise off of their own skills is great. Use fields to cast on phantasms and to cast clones through, it’s great.

Haven’t had AoE issues with the Mes myself… so really can’t relate to your issue.

GummiBear.2756:

djtool, i get quire easily get about 15 stacks of bleed as well on my stack between sharper imaigne +me and my 3 staff clones spamming wind of chaos (about 45-50 crit rate), and i get a little burn on top of that too consistently, add some poison weakness and chilled together with daze once in a while from chaos storm, or even confusion, cripple and blind from chaos armor if they try hit me… AND i put boons all the time on me and/or my allies too… so how did you say gs was better condition weapon again?

^^^
This

grimmson.9154:

is damage everything? I think a crit/power build can do more dps additionally with a burst that is more reliable than a confusion burst. BUT
1. the damage is comparable
2. condition builds are WAY harder to take down.

imo condition damage is very viable in every situation.

I am not sure how the necro or ele plays but as far as conditions go, mesmer has access to them all relatively easy. Burst is nice, but if you can’t single burst someone either because they countered something or they are heavily armored high health, you don’t have much to do while waiting for your next real burst. On my warrior I also tried a condition build, too limited, burst through power/crit is definitely the way to go.

You are absolutely right with your second point, and I think this is what makes the difference for me when pve or pvp. Condition builds; due the lack of needing crit, allows focus into vit/toughness which works for health/healing/mitigation so yeah, usually much more difficult to down.

juno.1840:

sinican.9250:

juno.1840:

sinican.9250:

He ya no… at 220 + per tic of bleed per second, 1k burning per second, and 500ish poison damage per sec while still having 2500+ power… (screw crit @ 4%)… People dies real fast…. at 5 bleeds im doing 1k per sec.. 10 2k per sec… it’s death coming… fast.

It takes a while to build up to that level of condition DPS. Conversely a shatter/GS mesmer will unload a lot of damage pretty quick (GS4, GS2, dodge, F1).

Also don’t underestimate crits. You get 50% more dmg without trying on a crit. Most people run with +60% so now you are at +110% dmg on crit. If you combine that with a 45% crit rate the result is a 49.5% overall DPS boost. That’s significant. (Reference http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit if you are confused by the math)

Once you hit a certain power, you’ll get more bang by adding crit chance over more power.

From that wikki… what you are forgetting is “Condition damage such as bleed and poison cannot inflict critical hits.” In other words crit is useless for a condition build because the majority of the damage is not direct damage and it also is unmitigated by armor/toughness.

Additionally getting a single stack of burning/poison and 5-10 bleeds + 3 confusions takes very very little setup… That’s why I didn’t talk about 25 stacks or bleeding or 6+ confusion because those are possible but unreliable and usually do take time to build.

No I was referring to your comment that as a condi-build you are doing more damage than a GS Power build. My example shows how crit on a GS/shatter build is quite powerful compared to conditions and that your conditions take some time to establish.

Condition stacking takes no more time than a burst combo. Your main and pretty much only reliable damage source is direct damage which can be mitigated and dodged. My damage comes from consistent direct damage and 5 other sources that cannot be mitigated or dodged that tic every second not once ever 2-3 seconds.

djtool.8372:

Answer is yes although it may disappoint you to know that greatsword is you best bleed weapon.

Staff is still solid you just won’t stack as many bleeds. Its probably best for a hybrid bleed and confusion or for pure confusion builds (the latter utilizing carrion or shamans amulet).

Between chaos storm, chaos armor, staff dbl bounce, clones, weapon swap to sword pistol… every condition hits. For the most part bleed is rather weak except that it stacks thus allowing up to 25 stacks to tic… vs the other are static duration/refreshed. GS is crap for applying conditions :/

Oh and cant forget about all the retaliation available to this build via combo fields that we can self synergise with.

Embolism.8106:

Crit damage is indeed quite useless for condition builds (not completely though, as you do deal a bit of direct damage still). Crit chance however is quite important for procing Sharper Images and maybe Sigil of Earth.

Right but instead of focusing on precision my points were more valuable in condition/vit/power… And understanding that I have basically no crit… 24% when fully buffed, I don’t use on crit proc traits/skills/sigils/etc. I don’t feel as though I need the crit or that I’ve lost out on anything either because my conditions hit like a truck, and I know they are going to hit like that on a fully armored person the same as a clothy without having to depend on rng.

juno.1840:

sinican.9250:

He ya no… at 220 + per tic of bleed per second, 1k burning per second, and 500ish poison damage per sec while still having 2500+ power… (screw crit @ 4%)… People dies real fast…. at 5 bleeds im doing 1k per sec.. 10 2k per sec… it’s death coming… fast.

It takes a while to build up to that level of condition DPS. Conversely a shatter/GS mesmer will unload a lot of damage pretty quick (GS4, GS2, dodge, F1).

Also don’t underestimate crits. You get 50% more dmg without trying on a crit. Most people run with +60% so now you are at +110% dmg on crit. If you combine that with a 45% crit rate the result is a 49.5% overall DPS boost. That’s significant. (Reference http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit if you are confused by the math)

Once you hit a certain power, you’ll get more bang by adding crit chance over more power.

From that wikki… what you are forgetting is “Condition damage such as bleed and poison cannot inflict critical hits.” In other words crit is useless for a condition build because the majority of the damage is not direct damage and it also is unmitigated by armor/toughness.

Additionally getting a single stack of burning/poison and 5-10 bleeds + 3 confusions takes very very little setup… That’s why I didn’t talk about 25 stacks or bleeding or 6+ confusion because those are possible but unreliable and usually do take time to build.

He ya no… at 220 + per tic of bleed per second, 1k burning per second, and 500ish poison damage per sec while still having 2500+ power… (screw crit @ 4%)… People dies real fast…. at 5 bleeds im doing 1k per sec.. 10 2k per sec… it’s death coming… fast. Oh and cant forget the average 3+ stacks of confusion doing 2k + damage…. pain much pain.

Don’t forget that conditions aren’t mitigated by armor/toughness… only defense is cleansing and high health pools.

Chakuna.6325:

If builds aren’t even remotely balanced in a 1v1, how is it going to be balanced in a 5v5?

The most used builds in tPvP are extremely strong in 1v1’s.

shadowes.1640 :

It’s not a 1v1 game and there is a reason for tournament to be 5v5 and that is there will never be a balance in 1v1

You can’t use that as an argument.

Are you suggesting that every class should have a counter for every other class? that is what is necessary to balance 1v1v1v1v1v1… The reason it can be used as an argument is because you can balance 3-5 player groups around team balance so that every class doesn’t have the exact same skills, same stats, same weapons, etc.

Embolism.8106:

Interrupt traits only work when they actually interrupt a skill, i.e. you use Daze while your target is using a skill and the skill is interrupted.

Are you sure of that…. Daze just activates a flat skill CD on all skills… the reason it technically interrupts is because a skill isn’t activate until the cast is over so the skill is hitting CD before the cast finishes, thereby interrupting it in that fashion. With actual interrupts, it interrupts the actual cast initiating a recast CD that is usually shorter than skill activation CD.. They act differently mechanically as far as I understand.

it interrupts skills by preventing use of them it isn’t specifically an interrupt. Daze prevents skill usage…. as a result of that it will interrupt “the ability to use skills”, that is it is not a direct interrupt.

Sarcasmic.6741:

Choops.3710:

sinican.9250:

Name a class that doesn’t run a 1 shot spec in pvp?

Engineer, Necromancer, Guardian, Ranger. Will that do?

Mesmer, Elementalist, Thief. There, we covered all of the professions that can not down a player in 1 shot. The only one left is extremely situational to be pulled off. Was there a point here?

Yes, you made it.

The great thing about this game is there is no 1 skill that can down someone, it’s always conditional to come out with a kill combo. Once you know the combo, you now have at your disposal the conditions required to make that kill, negate any of the conditions and it’s no longer a kill combo.

MLieBennett.9031:

Why not alter the Inspiration Trait “Compounding Celerity” effect?

You and your Illusions have a +25% bonus to speed. The bonus decreases by 8% for each active illusion for you (but not for your Illusions).

(Likely would need a name change to fit better though.)

That’s not a bad idea, I kind of like it, that would allow us to move better out of combat and allow our clones/phantasms to move better while in combat… if I am reading correctly.

Meh, sorry I still say that the shatter mechanic is the core of the class, not just the illusion tree…. It also appears that some of you are expecting our phantasms to act like pets; which they aren’t and I am glad… Clones and Phantasms are disposable utility skills that can be combined for greater effect…. I haven’t seen a build yet where keeping the slow weak phantasms out can out damage even the crappiest shatterer. I don’t even use the +20% damage to mind wrack and shattering still out dps’s stacked phantasms.

No thanks that is a band aid fix and a poor one at that… I like that inspiration does other buffs too because they are nice to have entering combat. Enough threads about this already… but we need a better solution like other classes have, the only semi reliable swiftness we have requires us to sacrifice our offhand to use the dang scepter all the time… I am tired of it, but I can’t stand how slow we are.

“Name one class that burns a Mesmer down without being a 1 shot spec?”

Name a class that doesn’t run a 1 shot spec in pvp?

Sabyne.6329:

Osirt.1326:

sinican, that statement is as stupid as saying guardians center around virtues.
Certainly, it’s part of the class and you can focus your traits more towards it, but you don’t HAVE to focus your build around it.
Even a mesmer focusing towards phantasms would occasionaly use shatters (invuln, some final burst etc.) or at least that’s how it was supposed to be until Anet started nerfing phantasms more and more.

^This exactly.
I must be doing it wrong on my guardian, I have not 30 points into virtues and not all the traits upgrading them.
Same on my engineer, I don’t have 30 points in tools, I guess I’m not playing these classes properly.
Oh and btw, still wondering why we have traits making our phantasm get more hp if we’re supposed to always shatter them after their first attack. Wondering why we also have a trait lowering the cd between their attacks. Really strange indeed.

I said nothing about having to trait specifically to purely benefit from only shattering. What I said is that the class’s core mechanic is shatters, which a lot of you keep forgetting. As far as traits (secondary/alternative mechanics) that improve the illusions damage/attack speed/health, depending on how you spec’d otherwise, there isn’t always a shatter available because they are on cool down. Those traits make your illusion heartier, that doesn’t mean they are pets (they are “illusions”).

Alex Behemoth.4952:

sinican.9250:

Mesmers are NOT a pet class… The core of the class centers around shatters… Maybe you should play a ranger, necro, or engineer?

I am not attempting to be a jerk here. Seriously though the F1-F4 skills are your primary abilities of your class, it is the core of the class’s mechanics. All builds should be some kind of shatter build, there are many different shatter builds. It seems silly that you are trying to use the class’s primary skills as passive/secondary skills, that is not how the Mesmer class should work, at least not effectively :/

So to me it makes perfect sense this buff… it is encouraging players to play the class’s core skills.

I don’t think you understand that every other class has pets except the Warrior. So I don’t get your point.
But anyways there are many different builds in this game for every class. That means that every class can be a tank, support, or damage class. There is no wrong way to play it. If shattered strength needed a buff maybe a small buff would have been ok to test it out. But what Anet has done is just give buffs to everyone regardless of balance issues.

2 of our elite skills are 60 second summons, 1 is a 40 second, and there is another if I am not mistaken (depending on race), these are actual pets because they are duration/health based. Illusions are NOT pets, use the mechanic that the class is built around… builds can still be diverse but for kitten sakes the class’s PRIMARY SKILLS are SHATTERS. Is it really that hard to understand? You can’t roll a warrior like a ranger the same as you can expect a Mesmer to function like some other class that has actual pets for example.

Mesmers are NOT a pet class… The core of the class centers around shatters… Maybe you should play a ranger, necro, or engineer?

I am not attempting to be a jerk here. Seriously though the F1-F4 skills are your primary abilities of your class, it is the core of the class’s mechanics. All builds should be some kind of shatter build, there are many different shatter builds. It seems silly that you are trying to use the class’s primary skills as passive/secondary skills, that is not how the Mesmer class should work, at least not effectively :/

So to me it makes perfect sense this buff… it is encouraging players to play the class’s core skills.

I think you all be crazy… I rolled warrior first and Mesmer 2nd and I felt OP the entire time as a Mesmer. From the start I experimented with all the weapons and found GS to be dumb considering it is main a direct damage weapon and the Mesmer accells at conditions, so I found the staff way more to my liking. Ranged is usually always better than melee for survival due to being able to kite… keeping this in mind I also chose sword/torch/focus for my alternative weapons to facilitate movement speed and stealth. The thing I think that really helped me is understanding the class… It is about toying with and abusing your opponent, they are great at stacking boons and conditions. I can’t understand others who started this class without understanding that shatters are the classes main focus (if this wasn’t clear enough because they are “burst” F1-F4 skills) not traited skills or extra skills…

Mes is my favorite class by far… More health, healing, conditions, boons, survival than a war/guardian… I can’t enjoy any of the other classes now :/ Only issues I really have has to do with passive/active movement speed being neglected for the Mes class.

Okuza.5210:

sinican.9250:

there are effects that only get applied when illusions are destroyed (directly/indirectly). Part of the AoE power of the Mes is using your shatters for not only the direct damage effect but also the traited effects

I wish it worked that way, but none of the traited “on death” effects for illusions are applied on shatter; they only apply when killed or replaced. I haven’t checked the current patch behavior for those traits, though. If they changed this in the 12/14 patch, it would be a major buff for shatter style.

The traits I’m talking about are “Crippling Dissipation”, “Debilitating Dissipation”, “Confusing Combatants”, etc.. The traits that target shattering directly work on shatter, of course.

—

BTW, it would be a relatively minor buff to not destroy illusions on target death. The gains would be fairly subtle, though — mostly a slight defensive gain when being ambushed. An attacker would need to paw through the clones to find the mesmer before jumping in. Oh, and Compounding Celerity would actually do something slightly useful.

I would far prefer a balanced weapon selection over this; eg. torch is laughably weak and scepter still doesn’t apply confusion as per the tool-tip.

I believe you are correct. There are traits that improve the shatters as well, I guess I am lumping them in with the killed/replaced traits. I use Debilitating Dissipation – applies random condition to nearby enemies when killed, and Illusionary Retribution – all shatters cause confusion (stacks with frustration). But I like to re-summon clones between shatter CDs which is essentially an AOE condition spam when you have max illusions out. With two phantasms out you are reliably only replacing the single clone. I love the synergies of this class

Josh P.1296:

I’d like to be able to use mirror images without a target so I can run around with clones up. Roaming WvW in particular :P

Phantasms should stay as is though.

I too wish we could summon clones without a target… I’d like to have by boons/traits before an engagement like everyone else.

Aazo.2841:

sinican.9250:

DreamOfACure.4382:

I’m fine with clones disappearing because they don’t do much besides draw aggro.

I would like Phantasms to stay though… They’re actually part of our DPS.
The idea of leading a group of phantasms and gunning/cutting down mobs is truly epic.

If you aren’t shattering and recasting your illusions (clones/phantasms) you are playing the class wrong :/ I only ever let mine stay up while they are on CD, recasting is faster then they attack(even traited)…

Then explain to me this… why do we have ranged clones/phantasms that get no wher e near enough to the target for shatter to have an effect at all?

So that they are all aren’t stupid AI that walk up to mobs that melee and die instantly from random AOE…. with ranged illusions you can place them strategically because they traditionally spawn on you and move close enough to deal dmg from range. When mobs approach the ranged illusions, they do not kite, and they are in idea position to shatter. Additionally, with ranged illusions you have the ability to create a chain of shatters instead of a single large shatter, this is great for staggering the effects such as daze and distortion.

Disastro.4086:

Esorono.1039:

Found a stealth nerf. Illusionary Membrane only works every 15 seconds now, and even says so in the tooltip. Well, there goes my build.

Yeah was great for a spvp bunker build combined with phantasm regen, tanking pve and farming but they destroyed it completely 15 second cooldown for the 3 second protection. I could understand a 5-10 second internal CD but 15 is really pushing it.

Apparently this is the reason I feel so squishy all of a sudden :/

I have to waste so many talents/skills/wepskills just to come close to keeping up with the mobility of all the other classes :/

Movement speed is one of those things that has to be equal across the board because of a whole slew of issues. Without mentioning all the PvP disadvantages, look how advantaged other classes are for these stupid holiday events and PvE where their passive movement speed all but gives them free achievement points/gifts, it is a design fail, you have to make movement speed universally available (I’m not talking about temp sprints and whatnot, even those have to have some semblance though) .

DreamOfACure.4382:

I’m fine with clones disappearing because they don’t do much besides draw aggro.

I would like Phantasms to stay though… They’re actually part of our DPS.
The idea of leading a group of phantasms and gunning/cutting down mobs is truly epic.

If you aren’t shattering and recasting your illusions (clones/phantasms) you are playing the class wrong :/ I only ever let mine stay up while they are on CD, recasting is faster then they attack(even traited)…

I am sorry, I can’t agree with this idea at all… Like many have already stated, they are not pets. The class is essentially a boon/condition class…. summoning creates the boons and then blowing them up gives the conditions, the class benefits by understanding this unique mechanic. Additionally, there are effects that only get applied when illusions are destroyed (directly/indirectly). Part of the AoE power of the Mes is using your shatters for not only the direct damage effect but also the traited effects, I argue that mes AoE is weak or that we are weak in PvE. I attribute most of the complaints with the Mes being because people don’t understand the mechanics of this class. The class even from GW1 was a class that punishes attackers through counters/illusions/etc., it isn’t a direct damage class it is a confuse and abuse the enemy.

This was simply a horrible move by the devs… LoS is already buggy, now I am going to have an issue of not being able to summon phantasm more than half the time because of kiting/blocking/dodging… this is really bad when all the Mesmer’s abilities (active and passive) rely on summons in some way, all except auto attacks.

“i was suggesting that phantasm creation be reverted to ignore line of sight, but require line of sight in order for the phantasm to attack.”

It would not remove the requirement of the phantasm to have LoS to attack as well, so in every situation both you and that phantasm will need to have LoS of the target to land anything. It’s placing yet another requirement on landing attacks/shatters by doing that, even if you revert the summoning.