Guild Wars 2

Ruggan.4102:

Its 4 seconds of damage mitigation while continuing to attack… while a dodge is 1 dodge 1 attack and no attacking… so yes, it does make that much of a difference.
Lets do the math… lets say your dps and the thief dps is matched at say 100 dmg per second. And lets say you are fighting each other. You start attacking the thief, he dodges. If he is quick on the keyboard, he dodges about 90% of your attacks… so he still takes 10% of it. You, however, because the thief has dodged the entire time, have taken nothing. After taking 10% of your dmg, the thief decides to attack instead of dodge… so you hit your 4second dmg mitigation. Now, thief does no dmg but takes 100% of your attacks. Thief uses a heal… you still have taken no dmg…. thief has now used a bunch of end, a heal, and is probably still down on HP if only a little. Thief comes in to attack.. you dont have your 4s mitigation up… but you have full HP and a heal still in reserve. But you decide to dodge an attack because by now, you have about 15 seconds left on your dmg mititgation thingy. so you dodge, thief is back to full hp from regen and full endurance due to vigor. You come in for your attacks. Thief dodges until end is out… now he is a sitting duck, dead in seconds… you barely took any damage at all and all of this is because you can still do dmg while taking little to none. So yea, 4 seconds is a big deal in fights that last only a few seconds anyhow.

Yeah, this is a great example of poor Thief gameplay.
No wonder you rolled a ranger and found yourself more effective.

This map is insanely fun to play.
This wouldn’t be as fun for a Thief, but…

frans.8092:

Your posts are the only thing ridiculous in this thread. While the condition removal on shadow return is a nice side-effect, no thief would use up the combos for condition removal. So no, they aren’t condition removals.

So, because you don’t use them as condition removals, they aren’t condition removals.
Who is ridiculous here?

frans.8092:

Examples of damage mitigation that doesn’t require you to stop attacking, you mean like Protective Shield, Protector’s Strike, Valorous Defense, Shield of Judgment, Prismatic Understanding, Symbol of Protection or Protective Spirit? Just to name a few,

33% damage mitigation vs 100% damage mitigation from evading/dodging. Your argument is invalid.
You want to facetank, even if you didn’t mentioned it. It is obvious.
Protection is the definition of facetank. Then, you should change profession.

frans.8092:

It’s good for what it’s supposed to do, which isn’t supplementing Black Powder.

You said the recharge is too long. It isn’t. It is an amazing support skill in dungeon.

frans.8092:

Nope, it isn’t, you’re confused, Shadow Return removes a condition. Shadow Step is not a condition Remover, if you say that, you don’t understand it.

Are you really doing this? Seriously, this is getting ridiculous.

frans.8092:

They have defensive skills that mitigate damage without requiring them to stop attacking for the duration of the defence. Neither dodging nor stealth offer that, with both you have to stop attacking and for the duration of the defence.

Give me an example, please. Tell me a skill which offers better damage mitigation compared to Pistol Whip.

frans.8092:

It’s a guardian skill, why do you mention it here?

Because it is quite similiar to Smoke Screen?
Both blocks projectiles. The guardian skill reflects them, Smoke Screen also inflict blindness.
What is your perfect recharge for Smoke Screen to be considered worthy?
20s? 15s? 10s? On initiative?

Blaine Tog.8304:

It’s disingenuous to label everyone who don’t think there’s anything wrong as “not constructive.”

I did not labeled as “not constructive” people who said everything is fine.
I’ve labeled as “not constructive” people who said everything is fine without explaining why.
And I don’t usually consider as “explanation” just “WoB and BF are strong”.
Spoj is a good example. He has contributed nothing to the discussion until I explicitly asked to. He didn’t even contributed in a good manner.

You can find even more people in this topic who has done the same thing as Spoj.

When statistically most entities have a specific attribute in common, people tend to generalize.
It is obviously incorrect to say that oriental people are rice-eater, but would you care that much if someone says that? Is that statement so blatantly false that has to been pointed out?

Blaine Tog.8304:

sorrow.2364:

Blaine Tog.8304:

What are you talking about? Almost everyone has proposed changes to make BF and WoB more viable. We’re positively drowning in alternative suggestions.

Please, count how many people just said “CC is fine, don’t nerf it” and how many have proposed real solutions to the issue. You’ll be surprised.

You said “None here has proposed a real change to WoB or BF.” Even if a lot of people have just said to nerf CC, a lot of them have proposed changes to WoB and BF as well. The statement of yours to which I was responding was therefore patently false.

It was an exaggeration, of course.
But it is hard to deny that most people here didn’t came with a constructive attitude.
You said “almost everyone has proposed changes”. I can count how many people have proposed changes and how many have just came here to say “don’t nerf CC” and you’ll see that you’re wrong as I am.

spoj.9672:

Theres no point us all suggesting the same changes over and over. The general point we are trying to drill into your dense head is that a nerf on CC isnt needed. Seeing as you want suggestions ill just repeat a few that people keep mentioning… BF is a minion so make it more survivable or automaticly give the heal when its killed. WoB could have higher base heal or just a lower cooldown or even some condi cleanse (per pulse or make it a water field). Happy?…..

I would have been more happy if you wrote this 3 pages ago.

frans.8092:

You need them to run rampant before you bring condition removal?

Shadowstep IS a condition removal. Infiltrator’s strike too.

frans.8092:

They also need to stop attacking while the effects of their defensive skills do their work?

Do their defensive skills lasts less than 1 seconds? Do their defensive skills grant 100% direct damage immunity? Do can use their defensive skills as often as a thief dodge/evades?

frans.8092:

You could use it for something else.

Damage, evasion and stun. What do you want to use your initiative on? It is the same effective initiative cost of heartseeker, but heartseeker draws your bar significantly faster.

frans.8092:

Last time I checked Wall of Reflection was an Engineer skill and Master of Deception is in Shadow Arts, not a trait you’d pick on a /P. Unless you like waiting, 30 seconds between trash mobs is quite long.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wall_of_Reflection
I mean, do you want 100% damage immunity from mobs? With 30s cooldown, you have 25% uptime of smoke screen…

Blaine Tog.8304:

What are you talking about? Almost everyone has proposed changes to make BF and WoB more viable. We’re positively drowning in alternative suggestions.

Please, count how many people just said “CC is fine, don’t nerf it” and how many have proposed real solutions to the issue. You’ll be surprised.

frans.8092:

And there we are, not only are we loosing damage when traiting for this much endurance, we also loose damage using it for dodging since we’re not doing damage while dodging. We’ve come round to the point I’ve been making, thief depends more on damage mitigation that requires him to stop attacking then any other class, lowering their damage output while damage output, should be, given the lack of support, their job in group excursions.

Do you even PvE?
Have you idea of why every people run berserker in PvE?
Because you don’t need damage mitigation. PvE is all about dodging the OHK skill at the right time. A zerker warrior die as fast as a zerker thief.

That’s why dodging is far more valuable compared to damage mitigation.

Still, I fail to understand what you’re talking about. You seems convinced that Warriors attack people in permanent endure pain or that they eat all the damage carelessly.

frans.8092:

On a 50 second cooldown, you can’t be serious.

Yeah, because we all know how conditions are rampant in PvE.

frans.8092:

You need a mathematical and statistical analysis to understand how you don’t do damage while dodging??? Or do you need to calculate how much time you spend dodging and attacking before figuring out that 24/7 Vigor is enough and using 24/7 Vigor + Feline Grace will keep you from attacking for a substantial, possibly the largest part.

Oh god.
Other professions need to stop attacking too when casting their defensive skills. So what?
Do you really think that in dungeon you have to dodge that much? Geez…

frans.8092:

Regen always does it’s job, as does Opportunist – at least while hitting. So the net payback from PW is less then 1 initiative.

But, once you are able to spend your initiative again, you have, in fact, just 3 ini less compared to when you’ve started to cast PW.
The channel time, in which you are evading, makes the difference.

frans.8092:

Lol, here’s facetanking again, you are not following the thread. The point being made is that dodging – and stealth – as damage mitigation compromises the thief’s ability to bring damage output, and thus, value to a group.

I’ve already answered to you. If you want to evade while attacking, there is Pistol Whip for you.

frans.8092:

The cooldown is really too long for that.

Wall of Reflection is on 40s cooldown, Smoke Screen is on 30, 26 if traited with an adept trait (if I’m not wrong).
Do you want such a strong skill on 5s cooldown?

Azraeel.1238:

And if you don’t seem to understand the impact of your suggestions, then just stop all together. Glad that you changed the name of the thread to reflect the real issue, but fixing this doesn’t include nerfing Consume Conditions.

Think of it this way, all three heals serve different purposes, however, all three heals should have the same amount of healing after a while:
Well of Blood: It doesn’t consume conditions, and I don’t think it should. The main purpose of this is to grant you an immediate heal as well as an AOE heal for support and extra heals if you stand on it.
Blood Fiend: It was buffed not long ago, and I think the toughness should be buffed for it to last longer. Although feast doesn’t grant as much as immediate heal as other skills, the blood fiend is constantly draining health to you. This is basically same as other classes signet, where they heal upon attacking.
Consume Condition: Considering necromancers are masters of conditions, it is logical to have something where it shows as such, the direct heal from it is equal that of the well of blood, except that any extra heal is related to how many conditions you have on you. It is stronger than well of blood when you think of it as single heal, however it serves absolutely nothing in support. That’s where Well of Blood shines.

This is why, nerfing that skill will fix nothing. If you want to make Well of Blood shine, increase the after heal effects done, and if you want the blood fiend to shine, increase its toughness to last a little more.

You don’t need to explain me every healing skills. I’ve spent quite a time playing Necromancer, I think that, at least, I know how healing skills work.

Said that, Necromancer isn’t a good healing support profession. He is quite good at controlling condition and boons but it is absolutely horrible at healing.
WoB needs a lot of healing power invested to give significant healing, which is a stat that is worth nothing on the whole profession except for that skill.

So, bringing WoB over consume conditions means giving up on stats freedom, having an healing skill on longer cooldown, loss of condition removal potential and overall less healing.
There is no reason to bring WoB at all, except if you want to feel you are supporting your team somehow, but in that case, you can just bring WoP, WoD, Spectral Wall and Transfusion supporting your team better without all the drawbacks of WoB.

Blood Fiend, on the other hand, can be quite a good healing skill if it wasn’t floating around and be killed anytime.
The healing it gives doesn’t pay off the risk you are taking. Comparing it to CC, you are losing reliability (which is HUGE on healing skill), instant condition cleansing and healing capability.
There is no reason here too to bring Blood Fiend over CC. The only advantages over CC is that you have another minion, which means about 300 damage and 100hp every 2s (if it attacks) and, depending on traits, a single condition cleansed every 10s. You can safely give up on that minion taking CC, even in a MM-centric build, having higher, more reliable healing paired with instant condition cleansing.

CC is so good in any situation, even in the ones it is supposed to be less effective compared to the other skills.

Rhogall.4179:

Nope, Guardians are. When’s the last time you heard someone say “Get a necro so we can survive on maw in 40+ fractals”? Right, never.

It means nothing. Toughest doesn’t mean best support. Those are different things.
A Necromancer can be easily the last man standing in a dungeon run (which is what a tough profession should do), but it won’t be that useful to the team once everyone else are dead. That’s why none ask for Necromancers.

Rhogall.4179:

He proved nothing. You are taking things out of context ( also ignoring what other people are proposing, namely, buffing the other heals ). Consume Conditions is fine. The only thing I may agree in is to slightly nerf the healing coefficient from healing power ( which someone else already proposed, but you decided to ignore it ), and even that is a stretch.

Really?
Please, quote me a post in which spoj has proposed and explained a change to any skill.
Most of the people here are saying only “CC is fine, buff other heals”.
Read the topic and you’ll se that not so many people here have a constructive attitude. I’m not ignoring the suggestions of other people, I’m just overwhelmed by a lot of trash posts of people not contributing at all to the topic but they only don’t want their favourite heal to be touched at all.

spoj.9672:

Well nerfing CC will only make us even more useless in pve as we wont even be able to sustain ourselves anymore. We dont need to propose a suggestion, CC is perfectly balanced and far from too strong. You can propose a buff to the other heals if you want. I dont really care, the only one id use is WoB but i think thats strong enough as it is.

As far as im concerned there is no issue. Every class has a favoured heal and very rarely use the others. Mesmers use Ether feast, warriors use healing surge and guardians use signet of resolve unless they are playing pvp where they use shelter.

That is not true at all.
Warriors use Healing Surge and Mending on the same level. Only Healing signet needs to be looked at, but it is another issue.
Elementalists have all the heals equally useful.
Guardians use both Signet and Shelter as much both in PvE and in PvE.
Engineers have Elixir and Turrets which are equally useful. Don’t know about Med kit.
Rangers use pretty much Healing Spring because of the combo field, but Troll Unguent and Heal as One are equally viable.
Thief have all heals viable. Withdraw and HiS are on the same level, signet is useful with high hit rates (P/P, for instance).
Mesmers suffer the same issue of Necromancers. Ether Feast is too strong to bring Mantra or Mirror.

Also, are we useless in PvE? We are the most tough profession in PvE, to be honest.

Anyway, with your answer you proved what I said. You don’t really care about balance as far your build works. You just don’t want any nerf.
That said, I don’t think that this mindset is the right one to approach this kind of thread.

spoj.9672:

Weve all said just buff the other heals but leave CC alone. CC is balanced, the other two are a little weak even for their niche roles.

I still don’t see any real suggestion.
What I’m seeing here is that you guys are only afraid to get CC nerfed and you don’t really give a kitten about the problem.

None here has proposed a real change to WoB or BF. Everyone have just said “don’t nerf CC, buff WoB and BF instead”, which really doesn’t help to the issue if you don’t give a real alternative to what I’ve suggested.

Azraeel.1238:

I didn’t say “Let this thread die!”, however I wanted you to understand the impact of this little nerf on many builds. I run 30/10/0/0/30, with consume conditions, well of suffering, well of corruption, Spectral walk, and lich form. I’m sure many run the same build or a close one. With little health regeneration, I totally depend on this single heal to provide me with whatever extra heal it gives, even it it was as low as, say 500 HP. Considering the fact that adding points in Blood Magic will kill my dps greatly, I would never switch to that. All you will end up doing is giving me less heals.

If you stuck with the other suggestions, without trying to nerf this, I would have agreed with you, to promote other builds.

Then propose your changes!
Criticism is when you say “I don’t agree with you”, constructive criticism is when you say also “but I’d do that, instead”.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Like I said before: nerfing CC only makes CC worse and makes the Necro worse, it doesn’t improve the other heals. It only makes the other heals more attractive by contrast to CC, but the net effect is that the Necromancer is worse off. If you really want to do something useful with the heals to bring them up to scratch with each other, buff the other two heals, don’t nerf CC.

Bas.7406:

Sorrow in this instance you are 100 percent wrong. The reason CC is so strong is because it’s our only viable form of sustain without it we are 100 percent dead to any team with a strong condition plus pressure team. It needs to be a big heal to allow us to sustain better.

Without the power of CC we are going to be punished severely and without recourse. Teams currently push the necro until he is forced into ds, than they push him with conditions until he uses consume. Now they know he has no sustain and can drop him easily.

If you want to nerf CC than you have to give us the ability to sustain in a fight to make WoB and BM a more viable form. As other players have said WoB is okay if you are not being focused. Unfortunately we are always focused and have no viable sustain currently.

sorrow.2364:

I’m all up for the change of base heals according to the base health pool of a profession, but looking as it is right now, Consume Conditions is quite a lot over the top.

Since I don’t think ArenaNet will ever balance heals according to the health pool, I think the best thing to do to not put the other heals in the “bad” area is to adjust Consume Conditions to make the other heals more attractive.

The easiest comparison which comes in my mind right now is Mending of warrior.
Warrior and Necros have the same base HP pool, but, still, Mending heals the same base amount, but with only two conditions removed and no extra healing.

I think myself that Necros needs better sustain.
In fact, there is another thread from myself:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Necromancer-and-Warrior-survivability/first#post2357403

This topic has been made in order to point out the issue of the healing skills and to suggest a change which doesn’t involve a whole buff to Necromancer’s healing capability, which I think it is needed, but I don’t think it will ever come (that’s why I proposed another solution without hurting CC that much).

As I said, I don’t think the issue is CC being to strong and nothing else. I just think that healing skills are imbalanced among them. Who knows if it is CC being too strong, WoB and BF being too weak or simply design flaws.

Azraeel.1238:

Yes it still sound like a nerf, why? Because not everyone use those. If you want to buff other sources of healing to make people use Blood Magic and well of blood more often then go ahead, but not at the expense of that one heal skill.

I proposed multiple solutions to the same problem.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Deathly-Invigoration-should-heal-more/first#post2348088

Bashing this thread blindly just because of a possible nerf is just stupid.
Just focus on the issue and propose your solution, don’t just “Huh, it’s a nerf proposal in the OP. You’re all wrong! Let this thread die!”.

Bhawb.7408:

You are either:
Asking that CC gets weaker, moving that lost strength into other heals
OR
Asking that CC stays essentially the same, and buffing other heals

Changing it to LF is irrelevant, you could make it so that it heals the exact same eHP per condition, but via LF not HP, but that is the same. Either it heals for less eHP and you have nerfed it, or you haven’t changed its strength at all, and this entire thread’s premise was pointless. You might as well have just said “buff our other heals”. Pick whichever you want, but both make you look equally wrong.

Still, you are missing the point of the thread.
The point of the thread isn’t about the changes I’ve suggested.
The point of the thread is the issue of healing skills, not being equally balanced among them. I could have called it “WoB and BF are too weak” or “Imbalances among healing skills”, it doesn’t matter. The subject it still the same, regardless the point of view.

My solution is one of the possible solutions.
Call it a nerf to CC, I don’t mind. You are trying to argue about merely formal matters.
You don’t like my changes? Then propose your own.
Do you think that heals are equally balanced now? Then explain why.

What I don’t want in this topic is people getting mad just because they think that my proposed change may be considered a nerf to CC, completely moving the focus of the topic to something which doesn’t really matters or, at least, I didn’t want it to matter.

Druitt.7629:

No, you proposed a straight-up nerf to CC because it’s too strong. Look at your own title for this thread. Just because you ALSO proposed other changes doesn’t mean you’re not asking to nerf CC.

If you can admit this and understand that it’s okay to talk about you wanting to nerf CC but buff other heals, you’ll still find that almost every other poster here disagrees with you for one of two very good reasons:

1. They don’t see the artificial need to have all heal skills be equally useful to all builds. As long as one heal is broadly applicable, the others can be more specialized and therefore used a lot less often. Or,

2. They believe that CC is fine and the other two heals need to be buffed or even modified in their mechanics.

You strongly disagree with #1. Fine. There’s no right or wrong answer on that one, it’s a matter of class “feel” and many of us are okay with niche heals.

You can work with #2 if you want. Buff and modify the other two heals, per the many suggestions in this thread. You’d come out the hero for it.

But instead, you want to pretend that no one else can read, and that if you nerf A and buff B that you really haven’t nerfed A at all. Your title says it all: CC is “too strong”, and you proposed that it be nerfed — and other things buffed — in order to create a situation where more Necros use different heals. You’ve so rigidly insisted on this, and on you being right and dozens of others being wrong, that you’ve lost the debate entirely.

sorrow.2364:

I don’t think it needs a nerf and nothing else.

I wanted just to point out an issue, which is that Consume Conditions overshadows any other heal of the Necromancer.

That issue can be resolved in many ways. Since ArenaNet seems to not be favourable with an overall increase of heals, I proposed a solution which can solve the issue without buffing other heals.

Of course the best case is Necromancers having better healing capabilities accoding to their higher health pool, but it has been proposed several times and never got enough attention, leading to the conclusion that it won’t happen.

I don’t like being forced to pick Consume Condition over any other heal, it kills the profession variety and, also, the fun.
It is an issue and has to be solved somehow.

Even in a minion build, BF is subpar compared to CC. Less healing, less reliability, no condition cleansing.
Even in a well-centered build, WoB is subpar compared to CC. Higher cooldown, less healing, no direct condition cleansing.

I just feel forced to bring CC over those skills just because I can’t give up on the healing of CC and, in fact, I succed way more when I don’t bring the other two heals.
What I’m saying is proved by the fact that any decent Necro has nothing but CC as his heal. I don’t even remember the last time I’ve seen any good Necro using WoB or BF over CC.

Is CC overpowered? Are WoB or BF underpowered? Who knows.

Bhawb.7408:

Nerfing is any removal of strength without equal strength being given back. That is what a nerf is; making something weaker. If they made axe do 50% less damage and made dagger do 50% more damage, that is a nerf to axe, it has nothing to do with the fact that they made it up to the class overall power by buffing dagger. However, if they took damage off of Axe 2 and gave it to Axe 1, such that your overall damage was the same, that is not a nerf, because we are looking at the Axe as a single thing, skills 1-3.

Nerf is relative, you pick an entity, defined either singularly (like a skill or trait) or a collective (such as a class) and then compare the relative strength of that entity before and after a change. If the entity itself is weaker, it is a nerf, regardless of any other changes, if it is stronger, it is a buff, and if strength is moved then it is merely a redistribution. What you are talking about is the class overall, saying that CC needs its healing redistributed to other heals. That is fine, but that is, by definition a NERF to CC.

So, replacing the extra healing with Life Force, while moving the extra heal to other skills/traits, is a nerf? This is going far too subjective, to be honest.

Bhawb.7408:

Taking away strength from one skill is the definition of nerfing it, regardless of whether you spread that strength to other skills or not. Why would I want to need 2 traits, and use 3 abilities to do the healing I can do right now with a single skill?

Yes, if you just stop at the first point of the changes I’ve suggested.
Nerf is actually when you just takes away the strenght of a skill without giving it to other skills, just because that skill is too strong as it was supposed to be. When you give the same capabilities of the skill changed to other skills or trait, you can’t call it a proper nerf, just a “strenght redistribution”. The potential is still there, it hasn’t been taken away.

The advantages of having the extra healing of CC spread among other traits is that you are not forced to bring CC to have decent healing. You can bring BF or WoB without any loss in healing capabily. Also, having different sources of healing encourage skill play and gives Necro better sustain.

frans.8092:

You always sacrifice something, either damage from a reduced Critical Strikes, or reduced survivability from not loosing Shadow Arts and thus loosing things like condition removal. If you go further into Trickery for the Grandmaster trait for daze on steal you’ll sacrifice both Critical Strikes and Shadow Arts, since 30 in Trickery and 15-20 in Acrobatics leaves you with only 20-25 points to choose from for the rest and if you want fury to mean anything, this means they all go into Critical Strikes.

Those are simple tradeoffs. If you were able to have them all, Thief would be completely broken.
You can try 0/30/0/10/30, 0/30/0/15/25, 0/25/0/15/30 or 0/30/10/0/30. Just pick the one you like with the proper tradeoffs.
Also, in PvE, Shadowstep is more than enough as condition cleansing.

They also get Vigor while attacking, rather then during a withdraw. Besides, when you are using more endurance regen then Vigor grants you’re not attacking but spending most of your time dodging.

This is based on which complex mathematical and statistical analysis?
If you think you can live without Feline Grace, then just don’t spend 15 points into acrobatics. 30 in trickery are enough to give you 75% vigor uptime.

Expensive on initiative, effectively on a 5-7 second cooldown, and it roots you, which is rather awkward with a mobile style. Remember we’re talking dungeons and thus fighting bosses up close.

It isn’t expensive on initiative.
With Opportunist, you have good chances to get 1 initiative back. 1 initiative, also, regenerates during the channel. This skill, in reality, just costs 3 initative.

Again, you’re not attacking while dodging.

Then make a big norn and go guardian. Did you really expected to facetank all the damage as a Thief?

not enough initiative for that.

Read above.

Doesn’t work against mixed melee-ranged groups

Read previous post.

Anchoku.8142:

Sorry about that, sorrow. I read the suggestion to not give bonus heals for conditions but Life Force, instead. That sounded like a nerf.

Moving the extra healing of CC to traits/utility and make CC give LF sounds like a nerf to you?
The healing is still there, it is just moved to Deathly Invigoration, Transfusion and Signet of Locust. It is even useful to re-evaluate the Blood Magic traitline, which is garbage right now and to give a more reliable way to gain Life Force.
A consume condition well used can refill most of your LF bar, which is quite good, to be honest and it can be hardly defined a nerf.

Kitedyou.1720:

sorrow.2364:

Since when single skills are supposed to be effective only in a single gamemode?

Another stupid comment…

This is comparable to how different races work better for different spec types in a given class…

Think about it. How often have you had 4+ conditions on you in PvE?? I don’t think there has ever been a time that I have had that many… Now, you get into WvW and you easily will top that…most of the time in the blink of an eye.

The well is great for dungeon runs because your group is generally close together and it provides a bit of auxiliary healing for them; it could also provide a 3 second protection buff to them too if you spec for it.

The blood fiend can be very useful for MM’s the right spec. I could solo many champions with my MM spec.

You are missing the point. Who has ever said that single skills are supposed to be good in single gamemodes?

Anchoku.8142:

Please no nerfing Consume Conditions. It is not over-powered and is a core part of many builds. If anything, Necromancer’s heals are barely sufficient for its health and, without the condition removal, Necromancer would be sub-par compared to other professions. Remember that Necro has only Flesh Wurm as a gap opener and poor damage avoidance skills. Necromancer’s heals have to be better than average because the profession is designed to take more damage.

Where can I change the topic title to “read the OP”?
This topic has provided intresting statistical data. Almost 95% of people don’t read the OP before posting.

frans.8092:

Withdraw and Steal each have their use, getting Vigor from them is a side effect, not their purpose and would you be using for the sole purpose of maintaining Vigor, you’d not be using them to their full potential. Not to mention you’re now dedicating three traits and have your trait-points to maintain Vigor.

Nope, you are dedicating three traitpoints steal boons, reduce the recharge of steal, daze your target on steal, grant your team 50% fury uptime and, of course, have 100% vigor uptime.
Also, you have quite a lot of goodies coming from spending point into the trickery traitline.

frans.8092:

Guardian has a 5 point trait that gives vigor on critical hits, makes it not only easier to maintain it then spamming heal when you don’t need it. And it gives you Vigor while attacking, rather then when withdrawing away from the action.

Still, Guardians get way less from their vigor since they don’t have Feline Grace.

frans.8092:

The discussion isn’t about endurance, the point I brought up was that damage mitigation from dodging and stealth prevent you from dealing damage, while damage mitigation from boons, like protection, allows one to keep attacking longer.
Why are you avoiding that?

Oh, wait….

Have you ever heard about Pistol Whip?

Now you’re evading more, I didn’t mention face-tanking at all, I mentioned damage mitigation that, unlike dodging and stealth, does it’s job without interfering with your offence.

Dodging is a 100% damage mitigation. Evading is a 100% damage mitigation too.
Pistol Whip your target to death if you want to deal damage while taking no damage at all. Or, if you aren’t against a boss, use Black Powder every 5s, press 1 and get a coffee.

Kitedyou.1720:

Sorrow…your idea is terrible.
WoB is for dungeon runs. Blood Fiend could be used for MM in regular PvE.
CC is primarily for WvW.
Learn the class before making posts like this…

I know this because I have done this.

What’s more funny than your senseless vision of the profession, is that you match that with a copious dose of arrogance.
Since when single skills are supposed to be effective only in a single gamemode?
That’s why devs are splitting skill effects in different gamemodes.

Black Teagan.9215:

Basilisk Venom is a joke , also with Residual Venom and Venomous Aura.
The thief guild prevents more dmg and hostile skills than 4x the venom, and they make damage.

And ClusterBomb is, addicted from the distance, very slow. Autoattack were stronger (except by 5 enemies).

That’s just a poor attempt to prove your point.

Basilisk Venom is the only CC which bypass defiant. It’s a fact. I don’t think the best use is to prevent damage.

Cluster Bomb is an AoE ~4-5k damage on 3 initiative. If the projectile was also fast traveling, then it would be insanely OP. Still, it is an amazing AoE skill.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Calling a healing skill with a 1.25s cast and obvious animation “too strong” misses the mark in my opinion.

The full, unconditional cleanse is the only thing that makes it that valuable. The only other multi-cleanses (Staff 4 doesn’t full cleanse unless hitting multiple targets) that a Necro has are dodge-able (both Dagger 4 and Staff 4 cleanse nothing if dodged) or take up utility slots (Well of Power). Necromancer also has only one condition removing trait (Shrouded Removal) that is generally regarded as a sub-par trait for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it is in the same slot as Greater Marks which is still nearly required to be remotely functional.

While necro is in a state that could use some adjustments, Consume Conditions is the least of the problems. You could buff WoB, give necro some other reliable means of cleansing (like making Staff 4 and/or Dagger 4 not hit dependent) so Consume wouldn’t be as critical, but a nerf is certainly not warranted.

Read the OP, please.

Black Teagan.9215:

Ähm, what!?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Basilisk_Venom

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cluster_Bomb

Shar.3402:

So that I could have 1000hp/s regen? yes please.

Horrible idea balance wise.

Probably don’t make that easy to stack 10 regen? Adjust the duration and the healing of regen accordingly?

Archer Henchman.2534:

If you just got wall feared, its because you’re in their mid-line. And if you’re in their midline, you’re not there to pull out a rifle on warrior. If that won teamfights, you’d see people running shortbow, longbow and rifle on thief and warrior respectively as their main weapon.

Here’s a hint: They don’t. Because your advice doesn’t work.

So you think that pulling out your ranged weapon when you can’t hit in melee your enemy doesn’t work?
Oh, well…

Sepreh.5924:

Then why would you create a topic with a title like that? You knew it would be inflammatory prior to posting but still decided to post it. Of course people in here will freak out about it with all the “nerf necro” talk going around recently and you knew that beforehand.

Because I thought that those people are not the most part, so I could just ignore them and do some constructive reasoning with people who don’t freak out just reading the title.
Sadly, I was wrong.

spoj.9672:

But your solution is a nerf. Thats not an option!

My solution is not a nerf. My solution is just to move some of the healing capability of CC to other unused skills/traits. It’s not a nerf, it is just a “skill potential” balance.
I did not proposed to just remove those extra healing of CC. I’ve just proposed to spread it among other skills, so that people who doesn’t run CC can still enjoy its massive healing, making WoB and BF suddently more attractive.

randomfightfan.4091:

Distortion, blurred frenzy, any evade on attack, any counterattack skill (they use block), ranger signet, and guardian… guardian isn’t a skill, they just allow you to facetank any damage carelessly. Warrior also has the trait to reflect while blocking. I’m sure there’s more but that’s all I could think up.

I’ve yet to see a Warrior in distortion.

I’m getting tired of repeating the same things over and over.

I’m not up for a straight nerf to CC. I think Necromancer healing should be buffed on all the line. But if ANet doesn’t want to do that, I proposed another solution to the REAL problem I’ve tried to point out in this topic the lack of variety among healing skills.

Don’t kittening get mad every time you see something which barely resembles a nerf proposal.

What if Regen stacks in intensity?
Make it works exactly like bleed but it gives health instead of dealing damage.

Amaterasu.6280:

5s is PLENTY of time to melt someone with condis as a necro especially if he has dhuumfire ready to proc + his marks. As a bunker guard, a line of warding could delay you, but your friendly neighborhood bunker guard isn’t going to murder you within those few secs neither. That’s the difference.

The problem is that the spectral wall is both offensive + defensive. Gives the user proc if you walk across it, and fears EVERYTIME the enemy walks through it…on top of that, the fear procs with terror trait so you can very well kill yourself if you walk through it a few times…

Switch to ranged and punish them, then.
There is no melee-only profession in this game. You can always switch to your ranged set and damage them for afar.

Azraeel.1238:

Sorrow, gtfo the necromancers forum .

All the classes got heals that represents their class. If you take a look at other professions healing skills, you will soon realize that this skill is fine and doesn’t need nerfing at all.

Guardians: they have one that heals others, one that blocks attacks, and one that cures a condition every 10 second.
Warriors: have one that grants healing over time, one that gives you full adrenaline, and one that cures 2 conditions.
Engineers: got one that gives random boon, one that puts down a turret, and one that opens up a kit.
Rangers: one that heals them and their pet, a heal over time for you and your pet, and a healing spring.
Thief: one that stealth you, one that heals you as you attack, and one that cures immobilization while rolling backwards.
Elementalists: one that cures a condition with every pulse, one that gains a boon according to attunement, and one that heals everytime you attack.
Mesmers: One is Gain additional health for each active illusion, one is Reflect projectiles and heal yourself, and a charging a spell that will instantly heal you when activated. All those with very short cooldowns.

Necromancers: Well of blood (high cooldown, and you need to stay on top of it to benefit)
Summon blood fiend: was buffed not long ago because it was a total waste, and still is, kind of.
Consume condition: is the only healing spell that we have and worth getting, the more conditions you have the more you heal, however, it doesn’t scale well with conditions. And it has a higher cooldown than the highest cooldown mesmers have. With an annoying 1 second and a half cast time.

Check out the rest of the heal skills before you try to nerf ours.

Read the OP?

frans.8092:

Does what? Return 30% of the endurance, which is less then the +50%. And yes, feline grace stacks with Vigor, but we have little access to Vigor. I don’t think our access to endurance buffing is bad, but its nothing better then what can be achieved on other classes.

You can easily keep up vigor all the time with a proper build. 0/30/15/0/25 with Withdraw as heal do the job just fine.
Other classes can’t do better. Vigor + Feline grace is the best endurance management in this game. Most other classes have only endurance regeneration, which is capped anyway at 100%.

frans.8092:

A 20 point trait with the same downside to keep vigor up as Vigorous Recovery; just as your heal, your typically steal isn’t used on recharge though it’s likely easier to fit in a steal then a heal.

You can have them both for 100% uptime. Trickery builds are quite strong right now.

frans.8092:

Through the context you are now claiming that Endure Pain is the only damage mitigation that doesn’t require you to stop fighting. Is that truly what you want to post here?

Well, tell me another skill which allows you to facetank any damage carelessly.

I’ll take this.

Everyone can eat that food, so it doesn’t make thief’s endurance regain special. Why do you mention buffs that everyone has access to as something special for the thief?
You don’t use your heal on recharge, you use it when you need to heal, so you don’t get vigor every 15 seconds.

Feline Grace does.
If you have trouble keeping up vigor, try Bountiful Theft.

Yeah, like those, 4 extra seconds relatively carefree dishing out damage. You don’t deal damage while stealthed, or dodging. Damage mitigation that doesn’t require you to stop attacking is better then damage mitigation that forces you to stop attacking. Thief has only has access to the latter and none of the first.

Do you really think that 4s on a 60s cooldown of carefree damage makes that much of a difference?

Amaterasu.6280:

You don’t think a nec could walk back across the wall faster than you can walk around it?

Then just wait 5 seconds and make him regret casting his wall.

spoj.9672:

Thats funny because the only boss i range is the shaman in grawl fractal. Melee’d GL plenty of times. Also never range trash mobs in fractals, los and cleave/aoe them down quickly.

So you also melee Ashym, Dredge Powersuit, Ice Elemental and Old Tom.
I guess you also kill attack face to face Mossman and Bloomhunger.

I’d really like to see how fast your team wipe when doing those bosses in melee.

spoj.9672:

I just facepalmed when you said you should range in pve. You have something called dodge, you should try it sometime.

You should really try fractals.

Also, all the toughest bosses, when you really need some support, can’t be done in melee range. Take Lupicus, for instance.

Balekai.6083:

Very true. I was going to mention the fact that others have lots of regeneration as well etc., but ran out of characters so I just concentrated on making my point.

A few things though:

Elementalist: Has to switch through attunements to get those boons. Necro only has to spam one skill that just happens to be there go to AoE attack with a 4.8 to 6 second CD. Soothing Mists is great and stacks with the rest of the healing, + Regeneration, but like with all the other water skills, the team only gains the benefits of such when ele is attuned to water. Necromancer can still cycle through all their Mark skills and even other weapon sets after enough stacks of regeneration and still keep regen up or nearly up 24/7. Especially with Mark of Evasion traited. Necros don’t need to choose whether they want to heal, CC or do damage. They can do it all at the same time.

Guardian: Yes they have lots of healing as well. The only downside is that the Guardian and allies have to be within 300-600 range of eachother to gain the full benefits, which of course isn’t a big issue. Necromancers that are support benefit from being in close range as well. Unlike Guardians, we have the option to stay out of a fight and use support at 100% effectiveness from 900-1200 range of allies/enemies. As a Necro I don’t need to run over to an ally to help them, I can just drop stuff on top of them from 900-1200 range in a targeted manner.

Mesmer: Phantasm Healing? Just no. It’s a nice bonus on my mesmer while running reflect phantasm/glamour builds, but a Mesmer specced for concentrating on regeneration or healing just isn’t that effective or viable in my opinion.

Engineer: Healing Turret is a great skill as well for regeneration, but its stationary and can easily be countered/destroyed. Again MoB can easily be placed anywhere within 1200 range of the Necro and is naturally healing/damaging where the fight is actually happening through its dual nature use.

Now my point wasn’t that Necromancer’s are the best healers/buffers in the game. They’re not. My point was that WoB is one of the best group heals when traited, Necromancers don’t just focus on WoB while traiting for support and they have two other potent group heals at their desposal. We can take near full advantage of our numerous area condition application skills + epidemic, traited wells that can offer protection, siphon and serious anti-boon/condition utility, in addition to exploiting Well of Blood/Mark of Blood for AoE healing that can compete with other classes. All while wearing a healing power set (Specifically Apothecary).

That build doesn’t need Consume Conditions nor would it be wise to take it with your already abundant condition management. Actually in a way it would hurt the build. Why would I want to turn my conditions into healing when I already have plenty of it and could turn the conditions into stacks of boons instead, or transfer them back at the enemy with moderately high condition damage ticks?

MoB isn’t that reliable as you are saying.
To have a MoB trigger, you need an enemy stepping on it.

In a PvE environment (which I guess it is the situation we are talking about), most bosses and enemies should be fought at range because of their insta-kill abilities at melee range.
If your teammates fight at range, you have no way to reliably give regeneration to your allies, as you can’t give regeneration to any ranged profession.

Soothing Mist stacks in duration, if I’m not wrong, and it is 9 seconds applied each 3 seconds while attuned to water. With Lingering Elements (a trait any elementalist will have), you can easily maintain Soothing Mist permanently, as long as regeneration (attunement dance is a core mechanic of any arcana elementalist).

The point is, why should any serious team bring a support Necromancer over an Elementalist or a Guardian?
There is absolutely no reason to do so.
Why should Necromancers run Apothecary set and force them to have condition damage in PvE when only regen and WoB scale with HP?
There is no reason here too.

Balekai.6083:

First of all you’re not building just around one healing skill when taking WoB or BF. When you trait for well usage you’re going to be using other wells in addition to WoB. Wells become very good when fully or partially traited whether you’re power, condition or support Necro. When you trait for Minions you’re going to be using mostly minion skills. Secondly why is it bad that a healing skill like WoB need some investment to become better or useful? How is this different from a powermancer making power skills more potent or a conditionmancer making bleed skills better? You can’t just ignore that fact that WoB traited is very powerful. Again for each profession there is a universal heal and then there are specialty/niche heals that get much better with traits/investment.

I have a fully ascended Apothecary set and a fully ascended Rabid Set. I have played both in all aspects of the game. There is little comparison between the self/group survivability and attrition of my Apothecary Well/Epidemic build vs. my Rabid build or vs. other class support when it comes to heavy condition fights, while still doing good dps with area bleeds etc.

If we’re going to compare WoB to the healing abilities that other classes have, you have to include other Necro group heals in the argument. Other than WoB, we only have access to two real group heals:

Transfusion, which does scale off healing power ((292 + (Healing Power x 0.06)) x 9 (Edit: Tested again and still just 292 as i originally thought no matter what Wiki says about heal scaling. So no scaling) for 2628 group healing with a 40 second recharge.

Then there is MoB, which is overlooked by most, but very powerful over time.

If traited, Mark of Blood has 1200 range, a 4.8 seconds recharge, applies 3 stacks of 8 second bleeds along with 6 to 6 1/2 seconds of area regeneration, that “explodes” on allies/enemies in and around a 240 radius. So lets compare MoB’s straight up healing over time compared to other classes’ group spike heal skills:

Over 5 seconds: 650 health per ally with no healing power. 1505 health with 301 regeneration ticks (1364 healing power).
Over 10 seconds: 1300 health no healing power. 3010 health with 1364 healing power.
Over 20 seconds: 2600 health no healing power. Ele’s Geyser heals 808 x3 over 2 seconds for 2424 base healing +1320 area group heal per blast finisher. With 1364 healing power MoB heals 6020 health over the same time frame, while Geyser heals 3447 with 1593 finishers.
Over 30 seconds: 3900 health with no healing power. 9030 health with 1364 healing power.
Over 40 seconds: 5200 health with no healing power. Healing Rain needs to apply two blast finishers to keep up. Empower can’t keep up, even with lots of healing power. MoB heals 12040 health with 1364 healing power. Healing Rain needs four and a half blast finishers at 1364 healing power to keep up.

This shows that MoB and Transfusion can reliably fill in the gaps between WoB on par with other profession’s heals and at any range. Transfusion can also be swapped out for other good healing traits like MoE (more bleed stacks), Ritual of Life (second WoB) or Bloodthirst (more self heal from all your wells). If you look at Cleansing burst, Healing Breeze and Healing Spring (the only other AoE Heal Slot skills), Well of Blood traited surpasses all of them except Healing Spring arguably, because Healing Spring can be blast or leaped finished many times over the 15 second water field.

Edit: Support build for reference.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNAW7YjQad6Zaub07JApHPj91TP+ecxjKMMA-jUCBINJDxRQmWQZm8IQ5RFRjtaqIas6ZER1qbYGxFRrWKAIWDA-w

It’s like Necromancers are the only profession who is capable to mantain permanently Regeneration on allies.

An Arcana elementalist is capable to mantain Might, Regen, Swiftness and Protection on the team just by dancing through attunements. Also, with just 5 points into water magic, an elementalist grants extra healing over time via Soothing Mist. Not to mention the loads of Water Fields they have.

Guardians have a Virtue of Resolve that, when traited, grants its passive effect to the whole team. Also, a guardian, just by dodge-rolling, heals nearby allies for about 1.1k in PvE and 600 in PvP with about 1k healing power at no internal cooldown. Also, about 1k is healed once aegis is removed, when traited.

Mesmer can apply perma-regeneration on allies automatically through http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Healing

Healing Turret of an engineer is capable to better apply regeneration over time.

Mammoth.1975:

The reason a necro would spec into party healing is because we do it better than a guardian, not the other way round. Anyway, I’m done with you, you talk about standing in a well of blood for longer than 2 seconds like it’s christmasland then compare it to CC with a dozen conditions. You compare transfusion to well of blood as though someone with party healing traits would have no healing power, and a bunch of other worthless crap. What a waste of time.

I compared the maximum healing potential of both skills, understood?

Standing in WoB in more than one people for longer than 2 seconds is possible, but then you are subject to the AoE, cleave and everything cast on your teammates making the extra healing you get completely useless. Is it hard to understand?

I compare WoB to transfusion because once you get Healing Power, transfusion heals pretty much the same as you have no healing power at all. Taking 1k+ healing power means having less damage, less condition damage or whatever you want. You are killing your damage just to make a kittening single skill on 40s cooldown working properly.
And don’t say that you are supposed to give up on your damage if you want to play as support. The only “support” skill you are listing is WoB. Other support skills work as good without any healing power at all.

If you are entitled that much with your opinion, then start using WoB with your super-duper 1.2k healing power build and let’s see how long you can last without switching back to CC or rerolling guardian.

LastDay.3524:

Well of Blood pulses:
152 + 0.4 *1000 = 552 per pulse * 10 pulses (you forgot this, I think? Or you are giving weird numbers instead of totals.) = 5520

Actually, I didnt, my numbers are right.

The max extra healing for WoB is 6072.

WoB ticks 11 times. One when casted and 1 time per second.

Mammoth.1975:

Actually, I beat plenty of good teams with well of blood, although I wouldn’t run it in this meta. Transfusion heals for much less than a well of blood too. You should stop pretending as though someone who intends to bring party heals is going to bring zero healing power.

Why in this world a Necro would spec in party healing and bring healing power?
Just a couple of skills scale with healing power and most of them have stupid low healing.

If you want to spec into party healing just reroll a guardian and heal 3x better while surviving more.

PMilkos.9103:

Does CC heal allies? NO

Can CC buff allies? NO

Does CC heal for more than WoB? Only if you have specced as a full damage dealer and even then it depends on the circumstances (if you’ve specced into being a healer it’s not even a contest, WoB always outheals CC by a mile)

Come back when CC can heal and buff allies, then you can claim it’s better. Until then, things are simple: CC is for damage dealers, WoB for healers and BF for Minion Masters (or it would be for minion masters if minion masters didn’t suck in absolutely everything).

Does WoB buff allies? No. You need a trait to buff allies with WoB, which is in the same tier of Greater Marks. Also, you don’t need WoB to buff allies. Other wells buff allies as well.

Does CC heal for more than WoB? YES. Always.
With 1000 healing power, CC base healing is 6.240, which is the same of WoB, with a conditional healing of 824. WoB healing is 552 per second.
The max extra healing for WoB is 6072.
The max extra healing for CC is 9888.
CC heals you istantly. With WoB you need to stand in the well for the whole duration to get the extra healing.
CC removes all the conditions. WoB doesn’t.
CC doesn’t require you to ball up in an obvious healing well animation to get significant healing.

Do you want to play as healer? Roll a guardian. Necro is a terrible healer also with 1.5k of HP.
Otherwise, bring transfusion and CC, which is always a better healing skill. You don’t even need to stack loads of healing power to do significant healing.

Enferian.2705:

Fortunately there is plenty of braindead AI in this game…
And also even if there is AoE u can see the healing from well as damage mitigation in some cases when the AoE would be unaboidable anyway.
Also when AoE is coming dodge out… then move in… u lost 2-3 ticks out of 10. Not all AoE is persistent for various seconds.

If u are arguing about the effectiveness of the heal in pvp things can change since people are not (usually) brainded and will AoE in the well… and even then there are cases when u can cast it on a point to help your bunker with some extra healing.

Absolutely no.
AoE damage in this game is far more higher than the heals WoB gives, even when you have the max healing power you can. That means that balling up to get some form of healing is overall a bad idea because your team will just blow up in a second.
Even if just two people are balling up is still an horrible idea, because you expose two people to damage instead of just one.

Even if the AI is brainded, it stills attack a single target with its AoE skills. If two people (or even more) are balled up to get the heals from the well, if one of them is targeted by the AI, two people get the damage instead of two which isn’t exactly a good thing. Never.

Healing Spring and water fields are a way better healing skills because people don’t need to ball up to get the healing. They just needs to either leap finishing or blast finishing into it to get a good amount of healing without having to stand in the well for 3 seconds.

Enferian.2705:

If u want party healing whats stoping you from getting transfusion and the well, therefore getting even more healing?

Because transfusion heals way more when dealing damage and doesn’t force your team to stand in an obvious well.
Also, the fact that Bloodthrist is on the same tier of transfusion.

Mammoth.1975:

I don’t know about wvw, but that’s definitely not the case in tourneys. The effect is usually the opposite in tournaments, as your team starts getting healed for a thousand per second, you tend to push the other team off the point. Nonetheless, even if everyone can only stand in it for two seconds in wvw, that’s still ~22k healing.

I guess why I never saw a single well of blood used in tournaments.
Even in the actual Necromancer meta, everyone is running Consume Conditions.

I guess it is because if multiple people are standing in a well to get healed, then multiple people are eating granades of an Engi, shatter of a mesmer, AoE from Elementalists, epidemic and AoE bleeds from a necromancer (just a single mark of blood is enough to make the well healing useless) and so on…

Even if you run shaman, the healing won’t be enough to compensate the fact that your team is balling up in a well.

Craig.2403:

Nobody wants anyone to whine about anything, it helps no one. What we want is intelligent comments. Here’s an example:
instead of the classic “thief is op, it facerolls everyone,” a simple “thief’s use of initiative is op because it allows the spamming of high damage moves, and this coupled with many teleports allows the thief to survive any encounter. It should be fixed by putting skills on cool downs, preventing the huge damage that thieves can put out. This would make them use skills intelligently, as opposed to just spamming one move then running.”
This would be much more constructive, as it allows for us to clearly see why the person thinks the class is op, and a possible fix. It also allows us to come back and reply with intelligent comments as well, such as, “the initiative system is simply a way to put skills on a global cool down, which means that the thief has to be smart about how much he spams, so that he doesn’t overextend, and put his escape moves on cooldown. A thief has to be much smarter about using his skills, because using a damage move may prevent an escape move shortly after if it is needed.”
This then allows for a constructive argument over whether the thief is actually op given the two opposing sides. However, if you come at us with simply “thief is op please nerf,” we have no way of knowing why you think thief is op, and can’t help you in any way.
P.S. These arguments were as an example only. They are not intended to start any discussions or claim it is a problem at all.

I’ve done this a lot of times when the thief was OP.
I spent pages and pages of topics trying to explaining my reasoning, but it all goes down like arguing with a wall (with obviously some exceptions).

Last time I opened a thief-is-OP-like topic it was about Flanking Strike+Larcenous Strike being too cheap.
I spent about 3 pages arguing with the whole thief community trying to explain why the new FS was way too cheap but I’ve only lost time and get insulted.
Still, last patch, ArenaNet nerfed LS increasing its initiative cost.

People in this forum don’t want a mature reasoning, they just don’t want to be nerfed, regardless if the nerf is fair and needed or not. This mentality leaves no room to any argument, just because they’ll always try to grasp at some straws to avoid any nerf.

Chase.8415:

There’s more to it than that. Warriors need additional work, but increasing self heals isn’t going to fix anything in tournament level PvP. All it will do is make them overpowered in the low end.

They will probably need more work, who knows. But buffing the healing overall on professions with higher HP pool is a needed step.

How can it make them overpowered in the low end? Just because they heal 2-3k HP more on their base heal which is popped out every 20-25s?
As Myrmidian said, those are the exact same amount of damage Mesmer is capable to mitigate through Blurried Frenzy. Or the amount of damage Guardian can mitigate through Protector Strike or Shield of Wrath. The same damage a Thief can mitigate through Pistol Whip. The same damage Elementalist can mitigate throught Arcane Shield.

Do I have to go on? I think this is enough to make you get the idea.

Chase.8415:

This game is not balanced around 1v1.

And ducks fly.

Seriously, what does it mean?
This game is all about splitting up and small scale fights. Why in this world should a profession rely on teammates to properly survive? What if your teammates is a thief?

Mammoth.1975:

So I thought I’d find out how much you can get well of blood to heal for, just from the initial heal and ticks, not counting runes that activate on heal or siphon traits etc.

The answer is 61,383.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQNAoYWjQad6haaa87JAJFAAw0DAAAAIFAAAA-jEyAoNioRqBYWsIasV3ioxqmJiqVNYWcioaXCmQAfHDA-w

The self heal is 18,131.

You need 25 might stacks for that, without it the numbers are 60,404/17,900.

I’m sure there are other buffs you could use, and you could raise it a bit by dropping 5 spite for 5 death magic, or ditching your 6th rune for a 25 healing power one. Still, that’s kind of good. Your damage would suck, but 3k attack and 2750 armor isn’t terrible, and dagger has high base damage.

It isn’t by putting up exaggerate examples that you can prove a point.
Most the cases, your teammate is getting just two ticks before he needs to move out of the well due to AoEs.

Chase.8415:

Still doesn’t make any sense to me. You have teammates that can help you out with snares and knockbacks. You also do significantly more damage for the amount of defense and health you can get as well.

How can be “you have teammates that can help” a valid justification to the lack of defensive capability of a specific profession? If you needs your teammates to survive there is a problem.

Since when Warriors and Necromancers do significantly more damage?
Try to run a berserker Thief or Mesmer. Then compare their survivability to a berserker Warrior or Necromancer.

It looks like you didn’t play this game at all and you are just bringing up theories.