Guild Wars 2

Chase.8415:

I’m trying to find out how people think making heals stronger on High Health classes makes any sense. You start the match with more health and have heals that do roughly the same compared to other classes.

Because you did not read the topic at all.
Higher health pool is given to those profession because they have less way to mitigate damage.
If they don’t give better tools to heal back, the higher health pool does not compensate properly the lack of defensive capabilities of those professions.

Godofallu.2935:

Anyone who knows anything about game balance can tell you why scaling heals based around a classes vitality and vitality alone is a terrible idea.

The necromancer is actually extremely survivable against condition builds. It just suffers against physical damage builds so at least it’s 50/50 at the moment.

If you want to make necros and warriors more sustainable you’re going to break the game. Most would argue the game is already unbalanced due to necromancer buffs.

To adjust properly you have to lower dps potential on both classes while adding condi removal to warrior and stunbreaks + protection or vigor or regen to necromancers. IMO of course.

It isn’t actually more survivable against condition builds.
Yes, Necromancers and Warriors have actually more time to clean their conditions but, still, you need more time to heal up the damage you would take.

Keep in mind that conditions need to be applied through skills, so a profession with more damage avoiding capability are naturally less susceptible to condition damage too.
Also, it makes sense that Necromancers and Warriors have better condition resistance.
Necromancers are by design the condition-centric profession, while warrior always had really poor condition removals.

So, I don’t see how giving extra heals to those profession can break the game in some way.

Developers have already stated that they don’t want to give vigor to necromancers, neither protection to warriors and they are quite right. But the issue has to be solved somehow.

Enferian.2705:

I m really bored to read this thread…

People say it over an over…

Well of Blood gives great party healing especially if u stack HEALING POWER!!!!!!!
Nothing scales as good as this.
Why in the name of grenths farts do u keep comparing the healing of WoB with 0 HP against other traits/skills with 0 HP whens its the SCALING that makes it so good??

Take a look at this….
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQBJCpBA-TIAgzCmA
923 healing power can make WoB heal your for up to 11373 and your allies for up to 5210

Why on this world shouls someone bring 923 healing power just to have a single skill to be good? Nothing on Necromancer scales properly with healing power.
It isn’t even that good, since to get a reasonable heal you have to stand into the well for the whole duration.
Transfusion is more reliable as party healing and doesn’t even needs you to stack 923 healing power to be worth something.

Enferian.2705:

Does the above number seem like “poor base heals”? also how about u play just a bit smart and not cast WoB right in the middle of the AoE?

Yes, the base heal is poor. Base heal = no healing power.
So, in 10s no enemy is casting AoE skills in which at least two people are balled up?
It doesn’t sound possible even for any braindead AI.

Enferian.2705:

Then it seems we can all say the same thing… fix the healing capabilities of necro in general (as u proposed in the original post and as others said since the game was released)… leave CC as it is…(as everyone in this thread is saying)… agreed?

In the same post, you said “WoB is good” and “buff WoB”. Are you just doing all this to avoid a remotely possible nerf or you are just incoherent?

ensoriki.5789:

What was the win-rate for those thief teams?

In the ESL test cup, 3 teams out of 4 in the semifinals had a thief in their composition.

I guess they made some wins to get to the semifinals, right?

tattoohead.3217:

WoB and BF are pretty cool man, WoB does the most party healing and its useful for PvP and PvE, BF does DAMAGE! no other heal does that…. so no your wrong on all accounts from all viewpoints. I understand your entitled to your opinion but your still so wrong on so many levels.

Oh and devs read this stuff that’s why people are cheezed because topics like this bring nerfs i agree with tobby lets this post die (lol im just board ar work)

Most party healing? Transfusion do better party healing than WoB.
BF does damage? ~300 damage every 2 seconds? Yep. But it can be killed anytime and your only healing skill is kittened.

I don’t know based on what you say that I’m wrong on many viewpoint, but it really looks quite arrogant from your side.

If people don’t agree with me it doesn’t mean I’m wrong.
People are wrong sometimes. Actually, they are wrong also quite often, especially when talking about balance.
Some example? Thief instagib build. Most people said “it is fine, l2p” but, yet, it was nerfed.
Another example? Hundred Blades. Most people complained at a time it was too strong, still, the skill is left untouched.
Another example? Terror+Burning. Most people here, actually some of them are also the same who are saying I’m wrong, said it is fine and people should learn to play. Yet, it will be nerfed the next patch.

I can keep digging into the GW2 forum past saying how many times people were wrong.
This assuming that what ArenaNet does is the right call, otherwise, it all goes up to a matter of opinion, which means it makes no sense you say I’m wrong.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Yes, I’m sure, if I’m going MM and aren’t going to be fighting something like Lupi where it’s just going to die to AoE. I’m actually gonna try running with it on my condi build since I already have hella condi clear but would like the sustain to give me more uptime on spamming Scepter 1.

Which, again, isn’t to say that BF couldn’t use a buff. But that’s more a problem with minions in general.

It still makes your heal exposed. Any enemy can just focus your floating heal and burst you down in any form of PvP.
In PvE, it just blows out from AoE, which makes that skill pretty much useless.

Blaine Tog.8304:

It heals teammates, so by definition it’s a support heal. Healing Spring is probably a bit better, but that’s more a symptom of Ranger heals being in trouble than anything else. However, it must be said that Well of Blood applies direct heals, not Regen stacks, so it’s actually better when your team already has a source of Regen (like, for example, Staff #2).

Yet, your teammates have to ball up in the well to get healed, which makes them more exposed to the AoEs. This completely overshadow the poor base heals WoB gives.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Which means the other heals likely need to be buffed. Not that CC needs to be nerfed.

Which is what I said multiple times. I proposed both the solution, but people tends to negate the issue if there is the possibility it can bring to a nerf.
The issue isn’t “CC should be nerfed”, the issue is “there is an imbalance through healing skills”.

Blaine Tog.8304:

I’m going to maintain that full MM builds should prefer Blood Fiend in most circumstances. You have so much passive condi clear in that spec that you really don’t need more active clear than Staff 4 gives you and the extra attacker is still good for procing life siphon and boon stripping.

Still, the healis it provides is still less. Also, your healing is floating around, exposed to be killed in any time. Are you sure to pick BF over CC?

Blaine Tog.8304:

It’s a support heal. You take it when you want to support. Most professions don’t get the option of speccing support with their heal.

It isn’t a support heal. It is just an heal that needs huge expenses in terms of traits and stats to be worth something. Healing Spring is a support heal.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Most of those heals are better or worse for different specs. Regardless, the Necro being able to specialize further with their heal than most professions is actually a strength, if the heals are all properly balanced for their niche.

Yes, if the heals are actually stronger when they are in their niche, which isn’t the case of Necromancers. Consume Conditions still gives better and more reliable heals compared to all the other skills, even when they are in their niche.

Med.6150:

First you argue that thieves can not be in such a bad spot, because every top team runs with it and when I actually inform you that most of the top teams have dropped or are in the process of dropping their thieves and that furthermore none of the top teams with thieves have been as successful as those without one, you do a 180 right into a straw-man?

What are you? Lobotomized or simply a walking contradiction?

Nope, you just said that teams with a thief don’t win, like it is because of thief.
That is a rather stupid and senseless statement, making you look extremely biased and not worth to argue with.

I’d like to know also where you got the info that most of the top teams are in the process of dropping their thieves.
Last tournament I saw, pretty much 70% of the teams had a thief in its comp.

Lighter.5631:

Elementalists have higher tier survibility thats all. thats why i called necros survibility decent(or maybe another word, viable), not high. and why should everyone have the same level of survibility, then everyone should be like guardian and ele.

and yes, ds is a 2nd hp bar

What about Mesmer then? I want to get the same level of visual confusion, same perma-vigor, same invulnerability on demand and same mobility. They aren’t supposed to be the best survivable profession, right? Why then they are capable to survive better than Necromancer?

Do I have to consider Rangers and Engineers too?

No. As long as Death Shroud doesn’t allow me to use my utilities skills, stunbreakers and heal, it degenerates over time at 3% per second, it is only ~10k and I can access to with a cooldown of 10s, it would never be a second HP bar.

Even in a full minion build, I prefer all the day long Consume Conditions over Blood Fiend. Someone who is taking BF over Consume Conditions is just because he likes to have that little thing floating around and attacking sometimes for poor damage.

Same applies to WoB.
It makes no sense that you have to stack tons of healing power, 30 points into an useless traitline and 3 different traits to make a skill sometimes a better skill than consume condition. Not even worth the light field considering how much of them a guardian can spam.

The heals shouldn’t be niche and, in fact, they aren’t niche in most professions.
Let’s look at some other professions:
- Guardian: huge heal with passive effect – heal with block – huge heal with AoE heal. Where is the niche here?
- Elementalist: huge heal and condition cleanse with long casting time – good heal and extra boon – low heal and healing over time. Not seeing any niche there too.
- Warrior: huge heal – good heal and condition removal – low heal, low recharge and regeneration. No niche there too.
-Thief: huge heal, high recharge, condition removal and stealth – good heal, low recharge, evade and condition removal – meh heal, healing over time, low recharge. Probably the signet can be considered niche, but, still, not as niche as WoB or BF.
Do I have to go on?

Lighter.5631:

i think necros survibility is decent now, maybe that’s because i play chain fear, but being able to remove alot of conditions and cc enemies real fast, have protection, weakness and a second HP bar is pretty decent.

Elementalists have pretty much the same but with vigor, evades and loads of healing.

Also, please, don’t say that Death Shroud is a second HP bar. It is completely false.

Jesiah.2457:

I saw ONE thing mentioned in this thread that interested me, aside from lookin’ at Necros, as they don’t need any more healing to go with that monstrous mountain they have called a health pool. (Unless they had their damage toned the eff down first)

Healing for more based on having more health. Maybe not an insane bonus, but a bonus none the less, just enough to make a difference. I can see something like that being just significant enough to start pulling away from pure glass cannon builds as just having a little extra health would grant just enough extra healing to make you more of a presence in a team fight.

Of course, I realize there’s pros and cons … which is why I explicitly called out necros. They don’t need more sustain to go with having a huge health pool and strong damage. If they want more sustain … then make them less Optimus Prime in disguise as a friggin truck in terms of damage.

If Necros had crazy sustain on top of everything else they now have like their two more conditions & more sources of fear which does more damage based on amount of conditions on their target … (if I am mistaken, please correct me :P) well they’d be the end all, best class in the game, hands down.

And really … when I watch a good necro play, or hell, even worse … watching a BAD necro play and do phenomenally well with minimal effort … yeesh …

That’s because of the actual state of Necro, which really doesn’t regard their survivability at all.
I can say the same about Warrior and Eviscerate and Kill Shot, but I won’t because it isn’t the subject of the topic.

The subject of the topic is that Necromancers and Warriors have innate worse sustain compared to other professions because of the higher health pool, which puts them automatically sub-par in terms of survivability.

Med.6150:

I watch all the tournaments and I have yet to see any team with a thief winning one (EU anyways).

For your information, those playing in the tournaments are almost entirely among these 50 ranks coincidentally.

So you’re saying that teams with thieves lose because of thief.
Nothing to argue here. Heavy bias is heavy.

I knew that most people would not read the OP and just come here and say “OMG, this guy wants consume conditions nurfed! he’s crazy! let’s spam how we don’t agree and how cc is fine!”.
No. Just no.

I’ve said in the op that I don’t want Consume Condition straight up nerfed, but I don’t want also to be forced to pick Consume Condition over any other heal because they are niche, not enough strong or whatever you want to say.
I’ve also said in the sPvP forum that I think that Necromancers and Warriors need an overall buff to their heals, why would I say that if I thought that Necromancers’ healing is too strong?

I bet that if I titled the topic “BF and WoB are too weak” there wouldn’t be any kittenstorm and most people would agree, despite the fact that saying that BF and WoB are too weak or CC too strong is exactly the same thing.

The issue is the lack of variety in healing skills just because CC is better in every situation over other heals (or WoB and BF are niche, see it as you want), not that CC is overpowered. I’ve never said that.

I know that you guys are on the offensive because of all the people complaining about terror+burning, but don’t kittening start a kittenstorm that big each time you see “too strong” near something regarding necromancers.

Med.6150:

There are all of 4 thieves in the first 50 ranks on the leaderboards and 1 hasn’t been playing regularly, so I have no idea what you are talking about. There are more teams actually replacing their thief every day.

The only profession less represented among these 50 ranks is the warrior.

Does it really mean something?
High level players change profession regularly according to the meta. You should watch some tournaments, not just checking the leaderboards.

I like how the topic went from “stop whining for nerfs and asking for buff” to “I really hate those people who say thief is OP! They really should learn to play”.

Really, it is funny how every topic ends toward either “Thief is weak” or “People should learn to play” despite the fact that no “thief is OP” topic has been seen from weeks, excluding some obvious trolls.

DanH.5879:

shadowtrap, i need not to say anything else
it will get nerfed, because it’s a good skill/trap now

It was the same about Signet of Undeath of Necromancer.

It was the best ressing skill in the game prior the nerf. They also had Corrupt Boon, which is another amazing skill for tPvP. But, still, Necromancers were in no competitive team before the buff.

Why?
Because none picks a profession just because of a single skill. Thief is good, get over it.

Enferian.2705:

You said its useless in a group fight… the ability for allies to cleanse conditions with their finishers makes it pretty good for group fights, but not as good for solo play. Still its good for what it is meant to do… group support.

In case it is still unclear… “group” is the key word.

Assuming people have a projectile finisher.
Still fail to see any real use of that skill. Give me any real situation, a real example, in which it would be more useful than CC. Group fight means everything and nothing.

Rueex.8361:

Well we found what was wrong with thieves, they weren’t OP and it wasn’t just a L2P issue it was the fact that other classes seem to still be trying to work out how to tie their shoe laces.

Nope, Thieves got nerfed. People weren’t wrong.

Blaine Tog.8304:

MMs actually do have good sustain, thanks to Blood Fiend and all the life siphoning you get from your minions.

Yeah, but you are still extremely susceptible to burst damage.
The constant healing is worthless when you have no way to mitigate damage.

Tobbygnome.6793:

Sorry mate but you’re wrong again, it doesn’t remove conditions but it is a 10 second Light Field which allows removal of conditions upon Projectile Finishers – http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Light_field

It is dam good in group/zerg fights and can be traited to 32s recharge which i use in my WvW support build.

How do you exactly trigger the projectile finisher on yourself? 20% chance on staff autoattack?
Yep, it removes conditions IF you are using a projectile finisher into it and IF you have a projectile finisher and IF the projectile triggers the finisher (since most projectile finishers are on a 20% chance).
3 “if” to get a single condition removed, while with CC you remove them all.

sas.6483:

It is as if you picked up the GW2, rolled a necro, got to level 2, went straight to the Mists portal, and then never played the rest of the game.

This topic is bad and a troll.

God…

jportell.2197:

Because each minions also siphon health to you. How many minion mancers do you see that DON’T have consume conditions?

Minionmancers are a rare sight. But when I see one, I rarely see Blood Fiend running around. The healing over time makes no sense when Necromancers barely have sustain.
I invite you to run a minion build and try both consume conditions and blood fiend. Then you’ll know which skill to pick.

The WoB sentence is directed to someone else who said WoB is useful in group fights and PvE.

jportell.2197:

Because each minion transfers every 10s So correct me if I am wrong but a 5 minion necromancer is losing conditions every 2s easily…

Yeah, each minion.
But why do you want that extra minion over Consume Conditions?
It heals way less and doesn’t remove all conditions.

About WoB, it isn’t even worth in group fight.
Healing Spring is worthy in group fights, Water Fields are worth in group fights, Healing Rain is worty in group fights.
A skill which heals less then regeneration, takes 40s to recharge, doesn’t provide a water field and doesn’t remove conditions isn’t worthy in group fights.

Tobbygnome.6793:

there isn’t an issue

Then you haven’t played Necromancer enough if you don’t think that either CC is too good or other heals are too bad.

spoj.9672:

If they implemented your solution then they would have to up the base heal by quite a bit. Its the other heals which are the problem not Consume conditions.

Those are two sides of the same coin.
As I’ve said, I think that the best solution is to buff the overall healing capabilities of Necromancer (and warrior too) to compensate for their higher health pool. Then consume conditions will be fine and WoB and BF would be buffed.

But since ArenaNet doesn’t looks inclined to adjust healing based on base health pool, I’ve proposed another solution to the problem.

Tobbygnome.6793:

No mate, they’re not hypothetical, Well of Blood is extremely good support for WvW zergs and group fights, Blood Fiend is exceptional for leveling, they have their uses set in stone, you are not the meta king of all Necros.

The fact people are against something does not in any form justify changing it, that’s very silly of you to say, if i said “We should nerf the crap out of staff it’s toooooo useful” and people said “No it’s fine how it is” that does not mean i am right!! geez \o/

I’ll say it again.
I’m not up for a straight up nerf.
I’ve just pointed out the issue and proposed a solution. You may argue it doesn’t need a nerf, but saying there isn’t an issue is quite hard to do.

Tobbygnome.6793:

If it is such an issue how come nearly everyone in this thread is against changing it, how come when people have explained scenarios where Necros choose the other heals you say “No one uses those” it just doesn’t make any sense, you’re not listening to reason.

Sorry to sound harsh friend but seriously come off your cloud bro.

Those scenarios listed are hypothetical and never happeing. In high-level PvE everyone is taking Consume Conditions. In high-level PvP everyone is taking Consume Conditions.

Who cares if in random casual PvE someone might be using Blood Fiend or Well of Blood? You can even complete the whole story without offhand weapon, if you want to.

The fact that any Necro is against changing it was expected, nobody wants to give up on the best heal of the Necromancer.

sas.6483:

Consume conditions is not too strong and does not overshadow the other heals. The three of them do different things, and are better than one another in different contexts.

Tell me last time you’ve seen any competitive necro not running consume conditions.
I’d like to have proofs too.

Blackhat.4016:

I was talking about both, base HP and vitality. Those stats are not supposed to increase your sustain. They make you more tanky.

If the heals are really that bad (which is not a core problem for warriors imo) you should increase the scaling with Healing Power (not HP).

Imo it would help much more if some traits/utility skills would be changed to give warriors and necros more sustain. That way they could choose to build for sustain instead of having high sustain because of their HP (which makes more sense and would be balanced).

More HP doesn’t make you more tanky.
More toughness makes you tanky. More HP without toughness and damage mitigation just makes you last few seconds more, which is useless.

I think that both base values and Healing Power scaling should be increased.
If they just increase the Healing Power scaling, then Warriors and Necromancers are forced to bring healing power to have enough survivability.

Do you mean with sustain the percentage of damage healed?
Then, if you look closer, Elementalists, Thieves and Guardians have an innate better sustain compared to Necromancer and Warriors with base stats, which isn’t that good balance-wise.

Enferian.2705:

This may be true for tPvP where there are many conditions and where CC really shines.
In PvE/WvW however things can be different. And there are already many people who said that they use WoB and BM in certain cases, myself included.

Finally i dont see why u think that CC needs a nerf… in all this time playing GW2 i ve never seen anyone of any proffesion think that necros have too much healing or are very durable.

I don’t think it needs a nerf and nothing else.

I wanted just to point out an issue, which is that Consume Conditions overshadows any other heal of the Necromancer.

That issue can be resolved in many ways. Since ArenaNet seems to not be favourable with an overall increase of heals, I proposed a solution which can solve the issue without buffing other heals.

Of course the best case is Necromancers having better healing capabilities accoding to their higher health pool, but it has been proposed several times and never got enough attention, leading to the conclusion that it won’t happen.

I don’t like being forced to pick Consume Condition over any other heal, it kills the profession variety and, also, the fun.
It is an issue and has to be solved somehow.

Travlane.5948:

but plz remember 1 v 1 is solo obviously and has nothign to do with the effect of a group guild or server. you are utterly doing nothing but serving a lil bit of self interested fun. which is fine….but unlike other classes you dont have the luxury/option to get serious and go join the fray. at that point just reroll. other htan stealth in dungeons we suc k in pvp and other than 1 v 1 we suck in any mode of pvp. thief is very fun to play while roaming as you do enjoy the 1 v 1s. but has quite alot left to feel lacking. srry but we are one of the 2 worst classes overall…nesxt to ranger

Nope.
I’ve said that Thief is useful for a group guild or server.
Roaming is as useful (probably even more) as wandering around following your commander and throwing your AoEs randomly.
I can list you everything a thief is capable to do better compared to other professions in any mode.

If Thief was that weak in PvP, I wonder why most of the top tier teams run one thief.

Bacon.4918:

Sorrow go post somewhere else, every time I see you commenting it is disagreeing with someone, and its never anything positive or constructive. Find something better to do than argue with people on GW2 forums.

Yeah, because if I have a different opinion, I should find something better to do than say what I think.

Never anything positive or constructive… God.

I guess I should start whining for buffs despite the fact that I think thief is far from weak to make you happy

Blackhat.4016:

It has been explained why heals (sustain) based on HP are a bad idea several times. There should be a good explanation somewhere in my post history if you want to read it.

It looks like that you’ve said that making heals scaling with vitality is a bad idea.
What I’m actually proposing here is to make heals scaling with the base health pool, not vitality.
That means that you still needs to stack healing power to have better heals, but higher health pool will be a real advantage.

Their problem is just their higher health pool.

Yeah, I know that Necromancers are kinda OP right now, but not thanks to their survivability, of course.

That it might sound strange, but I’ll explain you why.

Every profession have certain tools to survive a fight. Professions with lower HP pool have the best defensive capabilities and damage mitigation.

Thief has stealth, blind, mobility and evade spamming. Elementalists have lots of heals, any defensive boon, some evades and invulnerabilities. Guardians have heavy armor, lots of blocks, lots of heals and lots of boons.

Professions with average HP pool aren’t in a bad spot too.

Only Necromancers and Warriors have higher HP pool to compensate some lack of inner defensive mechanic. Warriors have no defensive boons, no evades, no invulnerabilities, not so many blocks, no cheap access to vigor and no visual confusion.
Necromancers have no vigor at all, no reliable stability, no combat mobility, no visual confusion, no evades, no blocks and no invulnerabilities. I know they have heavy armor and Death Shroud but, still, those does not prevents the hits to be taken.

It makes sense design-wise that some professions have an higher HP pool to me more like a damage sponge instead of being slippery or tanky.

But is the higher HP pool really worthy? It is, but only if heals scale accordingly.
In fact, the higher HP pool you have, the lower is the effectiveness of your heals.

While on Elementalists 5k heal is way more valuable because you are most likely to get less hits, on Warrior and Necromancer you are capable to take more hits overall (and you WILL take more hits), but your heals still have the same numbers.
This means that as an Elementalist, you are more capable to outheal the damage you take while, on a Necromancer or a Warrior, you will survive way less because you will take more hits and your heals won’t be enough to bring your HP back again to a reasonable amount.

So, in my opinion, any heal should be adjusted to the base health pool of a profession if we want to make an higher HP pool a real advantage. Otherwise, it will be just a placebo for a lack of any other real defensive mechanic.

Copenhagen.7015:

All 3 heals have their place. Consume Conditions is just the best for most Necros. Blood Fiend is only usable with full Minion builds, and WoB is the best choice for bunker Necro. WoB is also a great choice for PvE.

This isn’t exactly true.
As I’ve said, both Minion Necros and bunker Necros will choose Consume Conditions over WoB and BF any day because how strong it is.

Blaine Tog.8304:

The Necro is master of condition CONTROL, not just condi clearing. Because they have so many skills that can transfer conditions, the extra heal is necessary to give the Necro a choice between popping 6 to clear them and popping, for example, Staff 4 to transfer them. If Consume Conditions just cleared the condis, then the Necro would strictly be making a mistake using his heal to clear them unless all other forms of transfer were down. By empowering his heal when clearing condis with it, you not only make the Necro the undisputed master of condi control but you also create tension between various skills in the Necro’s kit, creating skill ceiling.

Still does not explain why the heal is that huge.
It should give another bonus over raw healing, like converting them into boons or giving life force instead (which actually makes more sense).

Med.6150:

It matters in the sense that you made the wild assumption that thieves are whining, because they are bad, when you have been whining about necromancers, a class that just recently became “faceroll” without any added depth, for months.

I assume people should have told you to stop wanting to faceroll and get your act together instead of pursuing buffs.

Did I ever said that Necromancers aren’t faceroll at the moment?

It pretty much looks like you know that thieves used to faceroll people, you don’t want to admit that and you’re trying to move away the topic from the issue.

If Necromancers were that easy to play compared to Thief months ago, I would have said that Thief is hard, not faceroll easy, right?

I guess you didn’t really played Necromancer before the patch.
If you remotely compare the situation in which Necromancer were before the patch and the situation of thief right now, you really have no idea on what you’re talking about.

Sarrow.2785:

Ah, here’s sorrow and his 2 cents. Was wondering why on earth you’d chosen to pass up the temptation to post in another juicy thief bashing thread – but, lo and behold, here you are!

Thief bashing thread? To me it looks more like a thief-is-weak-whiners bashing thread.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Each profession gets heal skills that complement their strengths. The Necro is supposed to be the undisputed master of condition control, which means they get better access to condi clear than most professions. It isn’t that Consume Conditions is overpowered, it’s that it’s a crucial component in helping the Necro fill its niche.

This explains the condition cleansing, which I’ve already said it is fine in my opinion.
What about the extra heal, though?

jportell.2197:

A 5 minionmancer bunker may take BF over it for one reason (trait where minions transfer conditions from you.

Nope.
Why would you get 1 condition removed every 10s over all conditions removed and huge heal?

Batlav.6318:

why nerfing something only because it is a little bit better ?
buff other heals instead its not that hard to use your brain.

Yeah, why not buff everything until we have an huge power creep?
Perhaps, you should use your brain.

Enferian.2705:

Withtout the extra healing by consuming conditions, it would heal for 30% of our base health pool. Compare that to direct heals from other proffesions with similar cooldown and u ll see that they can often heal a greater % than 30% of their base life. What i means is that it is the extra healing that makes its effective.

This is completely another topic.
I’m all up for the change of base heals according to the base health pool of a profession, but looking as it is right now, Consume Conditions is quite a lot over the top.

Since I don’t think ArenaNet will ever balance heals according to the health pool, I think the best thing to do to not put the other heals in the “bad” area is to adjust Consume Conditions to make the other heals more attractive.

The easiest comparison which comes in my mind right now is Mending of warrior.
Warrior and Necros have the same base HP pool, but, still, Mending heals the same base amount, but with only two conditions removed and no extra healing.

Med.6150:

Yet you play necromancer, which, whether underpowered, balanced or overpowered in the past, has always been the most straight forward and easiest class to play up there with warriors.

Ignoring the blatant no-sense (don’t want to go deep into a which professon is hard and which isn’t), how does it matter something at all?

Doctor Orderly MD PhD DDS.7625:

CC is the best heal but only in pvp. It’s a testament to the necro’s former-supposed-now-realized status of master of conditions. Would hate to see it changed. It’s a pretty garbage heal in case no conditions are removed, which balances it out just enough.

I proposed to remove only the conditional healing, not the condition removal.

DanH.5879:

Where are we going exactly with this class ?
What are roles in a PVE/dungeon/fotm party that we can fulfill for example ?
Will the class have better party support in the future ? Maybe extra range on the venoms?

does anyone offer some answers where this class is heading to ?

so far, it shines 1 vs 1 in the wvw probably, not really good in zerg squad

but i do not think the pve/s(t)pvp should be neglected…i am not sure we shine here…

I don’t know if you have seen the ESL test tournament.
Pretty much every team had a Thief in its composition, so I’d say that they aren’t that weak in s-tPvP.

Regarding high level PvE, Thief is needed in some dungeon because it makes the life way easier thanks to stealth (skipping hard mobs, dredge etc.). So, thief provides support pretty much thanks to stealth. Other than thakittens role is pretty much dps, which is extremely good at and we know how useful is high damage in dungeons.
Also, because its defensive capabilities is pretty much tied to dodging, a good thief is more survivable compared to warrior in almost every situation, because in high-level PvE dodging is always better than tanking damage, since most attacks will kill you instantly anyway.

Regarding WvWvW, thief is still the best roamer. I know that you guys tend to diminish its importance, but being able to capture the camps alone, intercepting dolyaks and reinforcements moving to the keep you’re capturing is extremely helpful in WvWvW, way more than spamming AoE while moving in a big zerg.
If you like to do the latter, I think that Thief is not the best suited profession for you.

TheAgedGnome.7520:

Sorry for spaz-replying.

I disagree with the premise of your argument “this skill is that strong to the point it overshadows both the other heals.” To me, Consume Conditions, is as it should be, for self-healing. As such, I do not see a need for CC to be nerfed and therefore none of the other changes are needed. (Ok…Deathly Invigoration could use a boost.)

Try it for yourself.
There is no reasong to pick either Blood Fiend or Well of Blood over Consume Condition in any situation, despite the fact that both those skills are far from weak.

Try to run Minions or Wells and tell me which healing skill you would pick :P

Consume Conditions is pretty much a complete cleanse and heal. It isn’t rare that you get healed for 8k+ HP by that.
There is too much in a single skill that not having it in your bar is a self-nerf, it is essentially an all-in-one healing skill, which is its main issue. It kills build variety that you’re forced to pick Consume Conditions because it is a must in every situation.

It’s just that Thief went to faceroll&win to a profession which needs skill to be played effectively.

That’s why people are whining. They want to keep facerolling.

TheAgedGnome.7520:

Absolutely not.

Any explanation?
It doesn’t help the topic if you don’t explain why you think it is a bad change.

I’m pretty sure I’ll be eaten alive by some people who read only the title and start anything to defend the skill.

In my opinion, this skill is that strong to the point it overshadows both the other heals.
Even if you run a full minion or well builds, picking Blood Fiend or Well of Blood over Consume Conditions is an huge loss over healing capability and condition removals, despite the fact that both WoB and BF aren’t bad skills.

I don’t think that it should be nerfed and forgotten; Necromancers needs that heal.
I think that part of its functionality and heal should be spread among other trait and utilities.

So, my solution is the following:
- Remove the additional healing from Consume Conditions (when a condition is removed). Add 5% life forge gained per condition.
- Make Transfusion heal the caster too (also while in DeathShroud)
- Buff Deathly Invigoration (as I suggested in another topic)
- Reduce the recharge of Signet of Locust (maybe 40s?), make it a single target skill and buff its heal (to ~2k)
- Make Well of Blood remove a condition every 3 seconds

What do you think?

EDIT (before posting, read this):

I’m all up for the change of base heals according to the base health pool of a profession, but looking as it is right now, Consume Conditions is quite a lot over the top.

Since I don’t think ArenaNet will ever balance heals according to the health pool, I think the best thing to do to not put the other heals in the “bad” area is to adjust Consume Conditions to make the other heals more attractive.

Tobbygnome.6793:

Just as a note, you can revive/stomp in DS but only if you hit the DS key and then F straight after, it will work but you gotta be quick. Have a good discussion o/

It is a bug, probably unintended.
I think we should keep bug abusing out of the topic.

Towelie.4637:

Just to let you know, if you guys have a problem with the incoming damage, you can have almost a permanent retaliation with enormous damage with the axe and death shroud.
And for the condition there shouldn’t be any problem if you use Melandru rune.

For the healing mod with the healing skill use at like 6condition give 11’532heal/clear condition and with the trait it give 5sec of retaliation. ( You have to admit that for a 25sec cooldown it a pretty impressive skill )

Yes we cant really avoid damage directly without a retaliation mod, but we got a lot of chill without any compromise ( which is really useful by the way ) , a lot of fear without so many compromise, a “second life bar” with op skill in it, we are the best for clearing condition and removing boon.

If you choose to be a Condimancer then yes you gonna have a real lack of survivability due to all the sacrifice you had to do. Great damage but lack of survivability and you cant avoid any damage and you almost have no heal really effective.

Heals are effective, yes, but they are balanced around the higher health pool of Necromancers.

Take for instance a Guardian. His main heals are way more effective, despite the fact that they don’t remove conditions. Why? Because Guardian has lower health pool but with way more ways to defend their HP.
Same can be said about Elementalist or Thief (Shadow Renjuvenation healing would be horribly bad on a Necromancer).

So, the main issue isn’t the lacking of HP pool, which as you may notice isn’t a real problem when considering survivability (two of the most survivable class have the lowest HP pool in the game), but it is the lack of damage mitigation abilities.

Death Shroud, in fact, isn’t a real damage mitigation.
It would be a real damage mitigation if you automatically gained stability while in Death Shroud, you can’t got conditions applied while in Death Shroud (or all the conditions applied in DS are removed after you go out) and if you’re capable to heal out while in Death Shroud.

In fact, in the right moment you enter in Death Shroud you:
- Can’t revive your allies.
- Can’t stomp
- Can’t heal yourself and your allies (making the Blood Magic traitline completely useless)
- Have no access to stunbreakers (yeah, please, CC me like a kitten)
- Have no access to damage cancelling skills (eat all the condition skills! Yay! So you’re dead once you go out from DS)
- Can’t remove conditions (see above)

So, how can be considered an OP defensive mechanic?
I think even the 300 extra armor of Warrior and Guardian is a way stronger defensive mechanic.

Bellamy.9860:

I’d rather see the whole traitline getting a rework than just doing patch work fixes.

I’d like to see the same too, but it’s probably too much to ask a whole rework of the traitline since we are waiting months without a real change.

I hoped for a substantial buff to Blood Magic in the latest patch, but, sadly, I’ve seen only 6 HP more from vampiric.

Bellamy.9860:

Those examples are what i had in mind too, but if they ever decide to “fix” bloodmagic(and i still have hope), they look at every other source of healing available to the necro.
Besides Deathly invigoration there still is Transfusion, Mark of Blood and Well of Blood for AoE heals and vampiric and potentially vamp prec and vamp rit for self heals.
Mixing a 2k base heal, which might or might not scale efficiently with healing power, is likely to be a bit over the top.

Transfusion does not heal the caster, which is why this skill isn’t that worthy.

Excluding the hypothetical new Deathly Invigoration, the other heals Necromancer have beside the main healing skills (slot 6) is a couple of HP given by vampiric, Regen and the slow Life Siphon. Period.

If you do the math, other profession would still have better healing capabilities even after the hypothetical Deathly Invigoration buff.
Keep in mind that Necromancer is still a damage sponge. It isn’t like the Guardiang (block-block-invulnerable-block) or the Elementalist (evade-block-invulnerable-evade).

Bellamy.9860:

@Sorrow:2k base is way too much if you look at similar traits from other classes. But still, the numbers of DI could probably be doubled without making it too strong.If it would sit at around 1600 heal every 7s(heavy traiting) by investing 1400 HPow i think it would be a good trait.
But something has to be done about the horrible vampiric line. It would be my go to specc if it wouldn’t scream “ignore until implemented”.

2k in PvE isn’t that much.
I agree that in PvP it is too much, but keep in mind that this would be the only real heal Necro has.

Take, for instance, Selfless Daring of Guardian.
It heals for 129 base + 1*healing power, which means 1k+ with enough healing power on EACH DODGE, which can be used way more often compared to Death Shroud. And it isn’t even the only heal Guardian have access to.

What about Healing Ripple of elementalist?
It’s 1.3k + 1*healing power when attuning to water.
We all know how often can a 30-arcana Elementalist attune to water. We aren’t even considering the huge amount of heals Elementalist has by base.

There is also Vigorous Shouts of Warrior.
It is 1.192 base + 0.8*healing, which can easily go over 2k heals per shout casted. 2 shout (FGJ and Shake It Off) are enough to heal quite much.

So, after all, 2k on leaving Death Shroud isn’t that OP.

Towelie.4637:

With the siphoning heal i heal 45 per hit, combine to #2 with dague 371 + 45, + 281 with the permanent regeneration = 697 heal /seconde ( but we lack of survivability ). and with the staff if you hit 5 target you win 45 × 5 = 225heal/hit + 281 regen = 500heal/seconde on your staff. And + all that we got an awesome death shroud !

Im sorry but no lack of survivability here.

We have no damage mitigation.
We eat all the damage as it comes. No vigor, no blocking, no invulnerabilities, no evades.

Those heals are nothing when you compare that with, let’s say, elementalist.
Without considering that Elementalist has access to vigor, blocks, invulnerabilities, evades and a lot of regen too, if you just bring the Signet of Restoration you get healed for ~168 in PvP or 200+ in PvE per skill cast. You don’t even need the enemies to perfectly align to get those 500 heal per second. Keep in mind that an Elementalist is capable to cast even more than 2 skills per second.

Yeah, we have Death Shroud, but it completely wipes away your utilities (and stunbreakers), heals and condition removals. It doesn’t work as good as invulnerabilities/blocks/evades but it pretty much last as much.

So yep, we definitely lack survivability.

Towelie.4637:

Wait, necromancer got a lack of survivability ? Right we aren’t survival as the guardian, but it not our job too…

I think this trait is just totally useless compared to the other trait you can choose, even with a 2k base heal. Ive got a healing build and i think they need to change it because you would need the old 50% faster death shroud cooldown to make this trait worth it.

Necromancers have an huge lack of survivability.
Devs also ammitted that, if I’m not wrong.

I think that 2k AoE heal, also without the 50% Death Shroud recharge, will make this trait way more attractive. 2k extra heals is extremely useful, expecially when you pop DS for defensive purposes.