Guild Wars 2

Velron.3729:

Counter play options have been mentioned multiple times in this thread, give it a read.

Counter play options are:
- Call a teammate to kill the engineer for you
- Apply conditions before the engineer gets under 25% hp.

Those are not counterplays.
The first one isn’t even a solution to the problem. The second one, as I proved, can be easily, easily countered by an engineer with just a little brain. You just need to cleanse the damaging condition, whose conditions which are cleansed first because they are applied frequently.

jmatb.6307:

I don’t post actively on the forums. I’m too busy, you know, playing the game. I have Champion Legionnaire, Shadow, Genius, and am about 30 games away from Magus. If you want screenshots I’ll send them to anyone.

Again, like the other child who posted, if you have nothing productive to add just leave please.

I don’t want any screenshot proof. I don’t care about your titles and everything.

It’s the GW2 forum. You should get used to random useless and unproductive posts.

Manuhell.2759:

Sure, but we were talking about guardians right now, and they are the profession with the major amount of light fields (coupled with a low-cooldown blast finisher like the one mentioned above means being able to spam retaliation around quite a lot).
And obviously everyone can blast those fields for that same effect, thus giving even more retaliation to themselves and allies.
In the case of the flamethrower’s autoattack, it means having up to 30 hits of retaliation per a single autoattack. Two autoattacks done so could kill an engineer without the enemies even attacking him.
While doing negligible damage to the enemies.

There is no team perma-retaliation in reality.
Even if there was perma retaliation, you still have 4 other skills on your bar (even more in the case of engineer) that you can use without wiping your whole HP bar.

It’s your fault if you use a single skill which is capable to kill you. It’s your fault because you didn’t noticed that the whole enemy team had retaliation on.

Velron.3729:

Ah so now we are talking about a full Elixir spec Engi with no kits for utility and no damage output (no one running cleansing 409 with 1 elixir). Gotcha.

I don’t see the problem personally, that’s gonna be a pretty crappy Engi for keeping people off a point. IE not a very good bunker.

Toss R to clear the condis could work, but now the Engi is standing still, with less than 25% HP out of probably 18k health. Sounds like an easy target to be 1shot by just about anyone who isn’t all in the condi basket.

Yeah, because no engi runs HGH…

Still, an engineer with that trait will completely negate the damage of a condition spec, which is horrible in terms of balance.

Manuhell.2759:

It is already balanced. 25% hp are quite few hp anyway and you’re still subject to control skills beside fear. And staying at less than 25% hp means you’re a walking target for burst damage.
It counters heavily specialized condition builds while putting yourself in severe danger toward any build with some power. You can notice it more now just because everyone and his brother runs a full-condi necro. Just call someone else in your team to fight this opponent.
And if your team is made just of full-condi characters, it is just your team’s fault.

How can an automated 100% immunity to a specific type of damage be balanced?
How can a trait that leaves no room for counterplay be balanced?

Get real, guys. That trait is a joke.

Fenrir.5493:

Very MATURE try of a necro to not get nerfed, but i have to tell you that the devs already stated that they are going to tone them down.

The OP does not play Necro. Just check his post history and you’ll clearly see he plays warrior.
Your point is completely invalid and you just look like a moron.

Velron.3729:

I addressed this once already. How does this Engi magically clean all of these condis?

Med kit drop cleanses one

Heal turret overcharge cleanses two (most likely heal)

Elixir gun cleanses 1 (bunker may have this as well)

The only option to cleanse all is Elixir C and Engi’s aren’t running that in tPVP. Too much has to be given up for a skill that doesn’t break stun or do anything outside of condi converting.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleaning_Formula_409
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toss_Elixir_R (that’s what a dying engineer will be throwing as soon as possible) + Projectile finisher

Those are a lot of condition cleansing if you sum them up.

Mammoth.1975:

Can’t be serious. Oh no a guy with 5k health, what will I do? Your bunker could kill him at that point.

Well, try to kill an Automated Response engineer with a rabid jewel and a condition build. Regeneration will outheal the damage.

Manuhell.2759:

You’re conveniently forgetting to mention that area retaliation is also given by blast finishers in light combo fields.
And guardians have got a lot of light combo fields. And one* 5s cooldown blast finisher with the hammer – mighty blow.

*Edited to reword a part that got accidentally censored.

Every profession is capable to combo finishing into a light field and, also, Guardian isn’t the only profession with light field.

Velron.3729:

The comparison doesn’t work. DD is limited to constant application. DoTs allow the application ahead of time to continue to do damage through the immunity.

One is a complete hard counter – the other allows an intelligent player to counter.

How?
Applying conditions that can be easily cleansed once the engineer has the condi immunity?
That isn’t a counter, that is a situational possible counter which works only against brain-dead engineers.

Are people actually arguing whether it is fine or not a trait which automatically gives 100% immunity to the main source of damage of some builds?

Seriously, guys. That trait is a complete no-sense.

It is like warriors had a trait which grants them permanent Endure Pain once they are under 25% hp…

vinceftw.5086:

What my point is that your claim that it doesn’t hurt burst builds as much is false. It hurts most burst builds as much as sustained damage. Since you said it’s designed to counter sustained, you say, that is also not true. Retaliation is ridiculous. Not so much in a 1v1 situation (but even then) but the fact that you can give it to everyone and their mother, in the case of guardians.

As burst I intended those builds with a low number of hits but high damaging ones.

Actually, the only skills that allows guardians to give retaliation to allies are three.
“Stand Your Ground”, which is 5s retaliation on a 30s cooldown, Symbol of Wrath, which grants retaliation only on enemies who are standing in it for 5s and Signet of Judgment, which is a 3s retaliation.

Even with all those skills on the same bar, you can’t mantain retaliation for a significant part of the time on you allies, which means that it’s your fault if you didn’t pay attention on the big animations with 300 damage popping on your character’s head and insisted to use your multiple hits AoE skills.

vinceftw.5086:

You’re making yourself look like a fool, sorry. Aegis gets removed by a backstab and the thief is still in stealth, same with other invuln and blocks.

Then the problem is how stealth works which is too forgiving, not retaliation.

vinceftw.5086:

That consistent time window you’re talking about by the way, is 3-4 seconds. During this time, he can still deal quite some nasty damage with auto-attacks. Besides, most burst builds actually have a multitude of hits. Mesmer Blurred Frenzy and mind wrack is 9-10 hits on yourself. Elementalist burst with S/D procs a lot of retaliation. Same with Static Discharge burst engineer who also have quick hits from 3k damage, not one big 10k. Same with a HB warrior…

So, what’s your point?
Reading this portion of your post, looks like that you want to prove the opposite of what I think you would like to prove: retaliation hits everyone at the same level.

vinceftw.5086:

If I read your posts you’re probably a thief. Almost the only profession that barely gets hurt by retaliation. Or a guardian, that loves his free damage without doing anything.

This just makes you look stupid.

Rozbuska.5263:

Well if you hit with FT for 300 and get back 300 while thief hits you for 5k and get back 300 is something wrong.

There isn’t something wrong because you won’t just hit for 300. You will hit for 300 10 times and deal even more damage caused by burning.

Those 5k damage from the thief can be avoided just by an aegis, a single dodge, an invulnerability, a block or whatever you want. Then the thief can’t hit you for 5k for a consistent time window.

Those 10+ hits can’t be just avoided by those skill, that’s why retaliation is there.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Here’s the thing, retaliation is SUPPOSED to punish any type of damage. That’s why ANY hit sets it off, and what’s asinine about that is that it makes retal both underpowered and overpowered at the same time. For burst damage, it’s worthless because the damage returned isn’t that good. For DPS, it’s OP because it can easily do more damage than the DPS is doing. Therein lies the problem.

The easiest way to fix this would be to make it have a low maximum duration time (like 6 seconds) and then make the retal hit back for a % of the damage dealt to the person with it in for sPvP. Make it so duration can’t get stacked and you’ve fixed it completely.

Absolutely not.
Retaliaton is not supposed to punish any type of damage.
It is supposed to punish only sustained damage.

Burst damage is already widely punished by short time blocks, invulnerabilities, damage-cancelling skills, aegis, evades, dodges and so on.

Sustained damage is punished only by retaliation.

Navani.5281:

Thank you! I did not see this thread.

No problem :P
It was in the second page.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Current-State/first

Shalla.3967:

It’s funny cause they’re three, and you’re one, and you expect to have a chance.

Playing thief may distort the vision of odds of a fight.

jportell.2197:

People are so mad about someone pointing out just how ridiculous certain classes are right now…. And a thief is prolly one of the least useful classes in PvP compared to others right now. He was just more having fun with it in his picture why is everyone immediately thinking he is calling for a nerf. And yes I do think necro is beyond OP but I think his picture is speaking a truth here. Also class stacking too if it was 3 engis on that point he would have had a rough time too.

The op posted an image of a point with loads of marks and three people guarding the point.
So, either the OP tried to say how overpowered marks are because he didn’t know that just dodging through them will completely negate every effects or he knew that he could have been able to just dodge through them, then this topic is pointless.

You choose.

Arganthium.5638:

YEAH LET’S GO TO MID GUYS GREAT IDEA

Just use 7 or 6 while looking backwards and all those marks will go away like magic!

Phantaram.1265:

Weaken arcane spell damage drastically (100% – 125% less damage) but give them some kind of utility.

Wait wait wait.
Are you suggesting to reduce the Arcane spells damage to below 0?
Like, instead of dealing damage it heals your enemy for the 25% of their actual damage?

Because of this:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deep_Cuts
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hemophilia

And this:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Curse
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rending_Curse

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sever_Artery
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gash

Manuhell.2759:

It doesn’t just punish them. Some of those are basically harmful just for the user in front of retaliation. Like some multi-hit autoattacks, that are rendered basically unusable. Try using the flamethrower’s autoattack versus opponents with retaliation.
And they can get it while you’re channeling the autoattack anyway, so just seeing if they’ve got it before you attack may not save you.

That’s the point of punishing multi-hit attacks, making them unusable over certain situations.
As I said, multi-hit attacks are, without the retaliation boon, more convenient compared to single-hit attacks. It is just a counter to them.

Manuhell.2759:

Regarding the traits, the effect depends on the class. And some of those have got cooldowns as well.
And as you said, those sigils have got cooldowns too. Usually too long to have some decent advantage in comboing them with multi-hit skills.

The sigils I’ve listed have no cooldown on paper.
Every profession, also, have access to at least one trait whose effect applies on critical with no cooldown.

Manuhell.2759:

Not many classes have got aegis. But while i can concede that dodges are less efficent toward multi-hit attacks, not all of them actually deal high amounts of damage. Not every multi-hit skill is an hundred blades.

But pretty much every multi-hit attack has a way higher damage potential.

Flame Jet is the only autoattack with burning in it.
Spatial surge deals incredibly high damage to be an autoattack.
Unloads deals ton of damage.
And so on.

Manuhell.2759:

And retaliation doesn’t make any distinction about them being critical or not, as it stands now. They can be all crits with 150% critical damage or no crits at all, but what counts is the power of the attacker, and just that.

What I tried to say is that when you use a channeling skill, your damage will be way closer to the average damage (which is, let’s say, 2k). You’ll deal 2.1k, 1.8k, 2.3k etc.

When you have a single big hit, your damage completely relies on the critical.
That means that you can either deal 1.5k damage (non critical) or 2.5k damage (critical).

Manuhell.2759:

It would deal a percentage of the damage. That means that doing 5k damage in a single hit or kittens with 1k damage each would give back the same exact retaliation damage to the attacker.

That will make retaliation OP, because it will punish ANY TYPE of damage.
Retaliation, as I said, is clearly intended to punish only a single type of damage, which is also the more valuable one, and people who doesn’t care about it.

Marduh.4603:

sorrow.2364:

This is a completely senseless statement.
Thieves can still destroy someone just spamming HS when he’s below 50% health.
Name me a skill that hits harder and is more reliable than HS.

10k damage:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hundred_Blades
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kill_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eviscerate
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Final_Thrust – like HS
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mind_Wrack

6k damage:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon%27s_Tooth
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phoenix
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirlwind_Attack
Almost any phantasm can cause one attack 5k damage.
etk.

You missed a part.

This is a completely senseless statement.
Thieves can still destroy someone just spamming HS when he’s below 50% health.
Name me a skill that hits harder and is more reliable than HS.

I highlighted it for you.

That cuts every skill you have named out of the list.

Manuhell.2759:

Imho, its design is flawed. It should reflect a percentage of the damage done. As it is now, it is useless toward big damaging skills and extremely harsh versus weak multi-hit attacks.

Absolutely not.
Retaliation is well designed, I think it is intended to punish low-damage many-hits skill.

First off, multi-hits skills benefits from on-crit traits and sigils. An Unload of a Thief is capable to trigger the Opportunist trait 2 times in a cast, lowering the effective cost of the skill to only 2 initiative, not to talk all the Sigils with low internal cooldown, like Strenght, Frailty and Earth.

Also, multi-hit skills does not suffer from Aegis and dodges that much, as it is way easier to avoid a single big hit than an higher amount of damage spread in a larger time window.

Multi-hit skills have a lower damage variance, making multi hit skills more reliable compared to single big hits, since each single hit as a chance to be a critical hit.

If Retaliation worked like you’re suggesting, high damaging single hits would be less valuable compared to low damaging multiple hits.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Solo que revisions are on the horizon guys, hang tight. I can’t give an exact date (that gets me in trouble), but it’s is on its way.

Is there any sort punishment in ArenaNet given to employees who release ETAs?
Like being forced to listen to the whole discography of Justin Bieber hanging upside down?

Elmuerto.9840:

Man I used PW from the start then one day realised how not great it was. That being rooted while it channels just seems like suicide to me.

Except for the fact that you are evading while you’re channeling.

SoLeciTO.3490:

I know how to play my thief, don’t assume things you dont know.

P/D needs a reworks i agree but a greate way to start it will be having more access to sneak attack the only real attack this set has.

About positioning, god man don’t mix things, we need to be out stealth and in the area to cap, that makes very very vulnerable to a thief with no denfense or health.

And don’t exaggerate the evasion build, i also saw the video of this thief against 2 bad players winning easily.

If you play the evasion build you will see for real how much damage you get anyways.

I’am not saying we are the underdog of the game.
I’am not saying i want a buff because i cant kill anyone.

The only thing i say is that there is no reason to have 4 seconds revealed . . . if there is please let me know.

There is a reason. This reason is just to force bad thieves to turn their brain on and to not use the following rotation: CnD->Backstab->autoattack chain->CnD->…. so that autoattack works as a “revealed is over” warning.

Also, to avoid the stupid CnD+Tactical Strike combo every 3 seconds.
Also, to avoid to backstab someone every 3s.

There are tons of reason revealed is on 4s.

Marduh.4603:

now thief single target damage<<<<<mesmer/warrior/ele aoe damage<<<<condition damage

This is a completely senseless statement.
Thieves can still destroy someone just spamming HS when he’s below 50% health.
Name me a skill that hits harder and is more reliable than HS.

SoLeciTO.3490:

I will be more clear then, because i can see you dont understand.

P/D: This build needs to constantly stealth for the Sneak Attack, its main bleed attack (actually the only one that really stacks bleed)

D/D: GC thieves now are really bad in SPVP, they die really fast because we have no denfense or health, any other profession can easily kill you in 3 seconds.

General:

1.- Stealth is the only real defense we have, evading works only with 1 build S/D and we still get a lot of damage because of our abd defense and low health.

2.- P/D the only one that can permastealth will not permastealth in SPVP because they need to cap, but we really need our defense mechanic back to scape to the 3mx3m fight area in SPVP.

3.- The difference between WvW and SPVP in the revelaed time is anoying, because is hard to get use to the timming differences (i already learn this but for most is anoying).

4.- Now we dont have mug, the burst damage we had is gone, there is no reason to be scare for a backstab now because is not that strong anyways.

5.- Other classes recieve greate things, like a guardian, virtually imposible to kill if they go full tank, and we dont complain, is his roll and i love that, but what do we have FOR SPVP?.

And there are more reasons but i know only that people that plays thief will understand.

P/D: It is a bad set. It needs a rework and stealth buff won’t help it.
D/D: D/D thief still has stealth and evades. The time you can run 25/30/15/0/0 with zerker gear is over. You have to invest something more in defenses.

1. Stealth isn’t the only defense you have. You have LOADS of evades packed in pretty much every weapon set, plus the best endurance management in the game. You have the best disengage capabilities in this game, also.
Stealth is one of the defensive mechanic and it is fine as it is.

2. So what? Any set x/D set can permastealth.

3. It is just one second. Is it really hard to get used to?

4. The burst damage isn’t gone. It was reduced to be reasonable.

5. Man, have you ever seen any video of an acrobatic thief? That is really unkillable, not the guardian.

stof.9341:

I can see the image perfectly. The 3 thieves come out of hiding, start their mean (3 targets) AoE cleave attack.

And they all die halfway through the channeling because the 3 targets they hit 8 times each all had retaliation as is common in zergs.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Retaliation-is-TOO-OP/first#post2421849

There are good changes in GW2, but what makes me sick is that they have thrown away everything good GW1 had.

I mean, it’s ok that you want to have a whole new game with all new mechanics, but why did you completely destroyed everything that made GW1 a great game?

It’s like they wanted to completely destroy the experience they have gained through the GW1 development.

Do you guys know how resign worked in GW1?
All the team had to type “/resign”, then the resigning team automatically lose.

redslion.9675:

Did you think I was whining about gap closers?

I’m just saying you don’t have a reliable gap-closing system (raliable= on short cooldown, easier to land, like svage leap). This means the player has to make up for this loss. If he can manage to do that, mace+shield/hammer makes you a frightful enemy.

Just wanted to be sure: I don’t wanna hear any necro/thief/mesmer whining and crying about these weapons. EVER.

What’s your point, then?
Hammer Shock is your tool to close the gap.
It is there and it is quite reliable. You won’t just follow your enemy with your hammer swinging the air.

Copenhagen.7015:

Dhuumfire and Terror both need to be tuned just a little. It’s just too much damage.

No, it is just Dhuumfire that needs to go.
Necromancer already had access to high-damaging condition (Terror) and Dhuumfire surely doesn’t help Power/Hybrid build because they won’t never, never take Dhuumfire over Close to Death.
That trait should have never exsisted.

Toning down the damage of Terror, will completely destroy any non-Dhuumfire conditionmancer. Toning the damage of both, will still make Dhuumfire and Terror a must-pick in any condition damage build.

Terrormancers were reasonably strong before the patch, they just needed more way to defend themselves (weakness + spectral wall) and another condition which works as a cover (Torment).
They for sure didn’t need more damage.

redslion.9675:

LOL

The enemy can walk out of Bull’s Charge, that works only on perfectly plain terrain, and has a 40s cooldown.

Throw Bolas will hit only 50% of the time.

Hammer shock is extremely easy to avoid too.

I think hammer/mace is fine as it is: it’s hard to reach enemies, but once you do, you can almost completely shut them down and destroy them.

Those are gap closers/skill that helps to close the gap, regardless what you think about them.
If you aren’t able to use them properly, just don’t run Mace+Shield/Hammer and take a Sword.

So, let’s take a look on the patch changes:
- Terror moved to Master tier
- Dhuumfire added
- Torment added
- Spectral Wall now fears your opponent
- Doom now fears for 1.5s

Those are pretty much the changes which affect the current Necro FotM build.
One, two or three of them are too much.

As you can see, Terror damage was untouched. The only thing which can increase the Terror damage is that half a second on Doom, which doesn’t really matter that much since it was counterbalanced by the Sigil of Paralyzation change.

Spectral Wall is avoidable by any non-braindead player, as any other line skills.

Dhuumfire isn’t the problem, as people are pointing out here.

Torment are only 3 stacks, whose damage is equivalent to 5 bleeds at best.

So, the “real” buff to fear/terror is the .3 duration coming from Doom at close range.
That’s the incredibly powerful and gamebreaking buff that made Terror so OP.

Really?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hammer_Shock
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bull%27s_Charge
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Throw_Bolas

It’s your fault if you don’t know how to close a gap.

I’m pretty sure that perma-evasion build is unintended.
It is just plain broken.

Dommmmmmmmmm.6984:

Hm, I may have to try out s/p with the trickery build.
But what I meant by the DPS is better, is with auto-attacks during longer fights such as against Champions. It seems the DPS for PW is better by pure numbers if you just look at them as is, but over time the auto-attack will slowly edge its way ahead of PW, since you can only use PW based on how much initiative you have left and then it’s either wait for it to come back up or spend time using utilities like roll for initiative, when on the otherhand auto-attack is consistent damage. If I don’t use PW and only auto-attack I could alternatively spam P5 and basically be invuln against anything but Champions and above. Not only does it make me basically invuln but all my teammates as well, and I would more than likely have enough initiative for an instant daze from P4. I can see how PW can be effective in very certain situations but is it REALLY worth investing a build based around it? If you have a build that caters to PW I’m more than willing to check it out and try it myself.

An advantage of Pistol Whip is that it is multiple hits, which means that you have more chances to trigger the Opportunist trait. Also, once the Pistol Whip channel takes place, you have regenerated 1 initiative.
In real life, each Pistol Whip cast costs you just 3 initiative if you complete the cast and you aren’t unlucky to not trigger the Opportunist trait (which is a very low chance, considering the 9 hits). If you are hitting multiple targets, you have the chances to trigger the Opportunist traits even more than once.

Running S/P with trickery build and Steal on 20s recharge, I’m never out of initiative. Stealing gives 3 initative, AoE fury, AoE swiftness, AoE vigor and 2 boons stripped and 2 seconds daze, all at a 20s recharge.

In which gamemode?
I haven’t played minions that much because I found it boring, but for the bit of time I’ve played minions, they looks quite effective.

The Death Nova trait has been changed to inflict damage on trigger.
I haven’t had the chance to test the damage because it apparently doesn’t trigger on sacrifice, but it looks quite high.

Also, Shadow Fiend and Bone Fiend secondary skills are now instant.

Don’t listen to guys who says Thief isn’t accepted in FotM parties. Thief is a requirement for any decent fractal party due to dredge.

About the build, I usually run a 0/30/0/25/15 with S/P + Shortbow as main set and swapping to S/D, D/D and P/P according to the fractal/boss I have to fight.

As heal, always according to the fractal, I use Withdraw for Vigor and HiS when damaging conditions are heavy.

About utilities, I don’t always have a fixed set of utility, but I always run Shadow Refuge for ressing and two of those utilities: Smoke Screen, Blinding Powder (for dredges), Ambush, Assassin’s Signet, Shadowstep (I can’t live without), Haste and Roll for Initiative.

stof.9341:

PW is hardly an on-demand stun when it got such a long cast time. And it’s melee on top of it. If you want an on-demand interrupt you got Head Shot for that.

In my opinion, FS > PW by far because I take S/D so that I get access to FS, and I take S/P so that I get access to Headshot and Blackpowder. Having to deal with Pistol Whip then is a side effect.

The long casting time isn’t a problem considering that the enemy is stunned and you are evading during the animation.

Having your main source of damage being also a stun is a great feature in my opinion. I think you should try S/P again with 30 in trickery and Sigil of Paralyzation. It is an incredibly valuable set.

The last patch has completely moved the Necro to trash tier to extremely good tier.

Close to Death and Axe Training are no more mutually exclusive, that means that on your Axe you can stack 15% permanent damage boost + 20% damage boost when enemy is under 50% of HP and Life Blast can benefits from the boost too.

Deathly Perception can give your Life Blast a 100% crit chances and, most important, Life Blast damage is no more tied to the amount of Life Force you have, but to the range only.

That means that a zerker Necro, now, hits like a truck, which is what all PvE is about, right?

Leadfoot.9071:

I find pistol whip very hard to land completely in spvp – I think you said you were going to make a video in another s/p thread a little while back which would be interesting to see because I’d like to know what your method in spvp against decent players is for getting off a full pw?

Use Sigil of Paralyzation.
Not only PW benefits from it, but also Headshot, whose daze is extended to a full 1s.

stof.9341:

Yes it’s true. And then again we got :

FS : steals 2 boons
PW : doesn’t steal 2 boon

FS is a clear winner as for the better skill by far.

Based on what?
Seriously, those are two different skills with two different purposes.
In most situation, an on-demand stun is way, way more valuable compared to two boons stolen (which you can still steal via Bountiful Theft).

Anubarak.3012:

let’s say
PvE PW > FS
PvP PW < FS

It is not even true.
S/P synegizes extremely good with 30 trickery builds in PvP.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I agree with the assessment that Necromancer is an easier class to play as I stated last post. However, Endure pain leaves you still vulnerable to conditions and nobody should run Staff w/o it being traited which means Shield Stance is also worthless against it. Combine that with Corrupt boons making stability go bye bye we’re left with Berserker Stance. It’s a good skill now but requires you using it as soon as you engage, which means you have 8 seconds to deal significant damage otherwise you’ll still be chained feared into wall, which is a skillshot but as stated eariler the fact that you can make your foe helpless to counter it by boon stripping WHILE placing down more Marks and all while having Terror and Dhuumfireand that’s where things get ridiculous. The staff by itself with no perks isn’t anything special but with those perks it really starts to shine.

Lets also not forget one VERY, VERY important fact – that PvP is a conquest mode. If you’re playing the game right most combat will take place on a tiny circle where avoid all this AoE means leaving the circle and losing the point. I actually like conquest modes but the points needs to be larger and the AoE smaller. Things that don’t seem so bad on an open field become OP when they become super strong when forcing people off points. Marks and the S/D skills become very reliable on these small points as well and dodging them becomes less of a counter for several classes. The problem, once again, becomes worse because now everyone runs double Necro which if you don’t have in a team fight means chances are you’ll be overwhelmed.

Necros do have the downfalls you mentioned but they aren’t as bad when assaulting a point.

As I said and I’ll say again, Staff isn’t the problem. Staff alone is absolutely wothless and close to none of the bleed stacks and damage output comes from that weapon set.

Regarding chainfearing, you’re exaggerating. Fear is a condition and a stun, which means that you can get rid of it by either use a stunbreaker or a condition removal. If you get chainfeared (which is something Necros are capable to do once in about 40s), then you’re doing something horribly wrong.

Regarding node fights, as I’ve said, Necros have nasty AoE conditions, but can be killed pretty fast. As I warrior myself, running heavy CC build, I can easily melt any form of Necromancer, both decent and bad, without needing to put any serious efforts into.
That’s the point of Necromancers. They are devastating if left alone untouched but they go down pretty fast if focused.

That said, I still think that Dhuumfire is something that shouldn’t be there, but the issue isn’t AoE condition. The issue is just single-target AoE damage coming from Dhuumfire.

Before the patch Necro were worth nothing. The only think has changed after the patch is Dhuumfire, .5s to DS#3 fear, Spectral Wall fear and Torment.
AoE conditions were still there as much as Terror. That makes you think that, probably, the problem isn’t AoE condition but one of those four.

BurrTheKing.8571:

The Marks aren’t weak though because Necros have 2 weapon sets. No class in the game only uses one weapon set (Engis use kits) to kill because cooldowns are fairly long. The marks are so reliable and synergize so well with Scepter/Dagger and you can strip stability and ensure your target can do little to nothing to stop it. I like that there’s synergy there but it’s not difficult to land an like I said the fear chaining can leave most classes helpless. The problem is multiplied when there’s 2 Necros on a team constantly fearing. Luckily the changes to Berserker Stance does allow warriors 8 seconds to catch them and CC them with Mace/Shield or Hammer but once that 8 seconds is up their goose is cooked because Endure Pain doesn’t stop conditions and Balanced Stance can be stripped.

That being said I don’t want Condis nerfed into uselessness cause that would make Necros worthless again. I’d rather have them made more difficult to land so that they become more on par with Power builds.

The current Engi meta builds require a much higher skill ceiling when compared to Necro. Their meta is also still too strong as well considering they have good damage with good sustainability. However that skill ceiling is keeping them from taking the brunt of my criticism because you encounter way less good engis than you do moderately good Necros.

I’m also not saying EVERY skill in the game should be a skillshot because that’s impossible. However I think you’re wrong in saying it would kill variety because there are plenty of ways to make a skillshot, again look at SMITE for a good example. I also don’t see how having a bunch of fire and forget skills adds to variety as that’s way more stale than anything else. Combustive Shot and Arching shot are the only reason Warrior longbow is fun to play but rifle on the other hand is dull as hell because you just target and tap 1-5. I’d like to be able to actively aim my Volley and Kill Shot because then if I know where a stealthed target is I could actually deal some damage to them because I’m the one in control of aiming. Imagine landing a skill shot Bolas, they stealth, but you can still hit them with Kill Shot cause you locked them down.

The chain fearing you’re talking about is just Staff #5 and DS #3. Those two skills alone, even with the maximum condition duration you can archieve, can’t fear a single target for more than 4s, which isn’t something incredibly broken, considering that the warrior itself is capable to have even more fear with just a single cast of “Fear Me”.

The problem is when you get feared into a Spectral Wall, but in that case it is a sort of skillshot because you are manipulating your enemy (which isn’t using any condition removal nor stunbreaker) through fear to force him to walk into the spectral wall.

Also, Scepter/Dagger bleeds are way harder to land compared to marks. Both Grasping Dead and Enfeebling Blood are tied to a very obvious animation and long casting time, which is the true source of bleed stacks.

The problem isn’t that Necromancers are easy to play. The problem is that they have added burning on crit to Necromancers when they didn’t need it at all, which is the real issue.

Necromancer are still tied to survivability issues due to lack to vigor and damage mitigation skills (ie Blocks/invulnerabilities/evades), which forces them to play aggressively in order to not implode. The skill requirements you don’t see on Necromancers offensively is because they have to work way harder to manage their LF pool (which is their only source of survivability), manage conditions, timing dodges better (a Necromancer can’t afford to misdodge), put the good amunts of debuffs on the enemies and so on.

A warrior hasn’t any of these worries. As you said, you just pop Endure Pain, Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance or Shield Stance and you can completely forget about conditions and damage.

It’s not that Necromancers have no “skillshots”, it is just that condition necromancers have their skill requirements sorted differently compared to Warrior and even to powermancer themselves. Obviously, I’m not saying that conditionmancers are fine right now.

BurrTheKing.8571:

It’s funny to me because I think GW2 (whos combat seems to have drawn inspiration from some moba games) at least in part inspired games like SMITE and Wildstar, but they are now taking it to a better level. I’d be fine with them stealing sme of these new ideas coming out for themselves. SMITE in particular has taken skill shots to the point where even your basic attack has to be aimed. I don’t think GW2 would go that far but if you ask me landing skills like Arching Shot, Whirlwind Attack, and Earthshaker is much more engaging than most of the magic based classes, that while they have targeted skills tend to be much easier to hit, especial if you’ve done a significant amount of time as a warrior.

Some people who find that landing Marks is fine I suggest either try using warrior Longbow or Hammer and you’ll get a different perspective. I’d like to be able to manually target skills like Bladetrail, Impale, and many rifle skills because I feel like I could do a better job of making sure the attack lands than the auto target tends to. It would also just be so much more engaging and would add even more depth to the combat. Engis grenade kit is a good example of abilities that require a a good amount of effort to use well. Being up close means exposing yourself to more danger but makes the nades easier to land but at range you have to account for travel time and even once you become good at it you’ll still miss shots.

Watching even high skilled players is fairly dull in this meta considering most condition based skills are auto targeted. Seeing someone nail a perfect condition spike would be a lot more exciting if landing all the skills were actually a challenge.

A lot basic melee weapons obviously can’t all be skill shots but if you look at most weapons on any class at least 1 ability could be made a skillshot.

I’m picking on Necro because currently the meta uses staff and if you compare Marks to Nades it’s obvious which is more difficult to use. Seeing Bulls Charge made a skillshot would actually be pretty cool if in return they made the travel time faster and maybe have it affect up to 2 other people adjacent to the first person it hits. If unload received a buff and became a skillshot it would reward setting the target up with Headshot or Venom.

As I pointed out Staff marks are weak.
They aren’t capable to kill a single entity all by themselves. That’s why most Necros doesn’t use staff as main weapon and use it as a support weapon to their main set.

Egineer’s Granades have devastating effects. Their damage is way higher compared to Marks and they can be traited to have even a longer ranger than marks. Even the bleeding they apply are way longer and reliable compared to the Mark of Blood bleeds.

That’s the point. Easier to land skills are in most cases weak. Every profession have access to easy-to-land-weak skills and skillshot skills.
Making every skill skillshot will kill game variety.

stof.9341:

Because obviously FS is much better than PW.
FS : tracks your target on first part and second can be used on the move
PW : second place roots you in place making it more likely to miss part of the damage

FS : two strong hits
PW : suicide by retaliation

FS : evades 1/2s at the start of the skill, you can use the evade reactively
PW : evades somewhere in the middle of the effect after a cast time, evades while the target is stunned even

Because obviously FS and PW are two different skills and both strong.

PW: stuns your target (so it roots it in place) and interrupts it, making PW damage more reliable
FS: your target can still move and dodge the stronger hit

PW: deals more damage
FS: deals less damage

PW: has more hits, which means it has higher chances to trigger Opportunist (thus regaining 1 initiative) and on-crit sigils
FS: has less hits

PW: has less damage variance due to the more hits, which means that the damage is better normalized around the average
FS: has more damage variance, making the damage less reliable

So all of sudden, Necromancer’s Mark has become an example of skill-less gameplay?
1s ICD on Marks? Marks that does not trigger when used down an enemy?
Those are horrible suggestions.

Staff itself deals about no raw damage at all, compared to engineer’s granades.
Also, with staff only, you aren’t even capable to maintain 6 stacks of bleeding permanently.
Staff is great only for the utility it has. A Necromancer with staff only isn’t capable to kill a single entity.

I don’t know how such an horrible suggestion came in your mind, but I think people will realize how it doesn’t make any sense at all.

S/P is an incredibly powerful set, both in PvP and in PvE.

The “autoattack deals more damage” argument has been proved to be stupid enough.
FS, even after the buff, always dealt about the damage of autoattack, but nobody seems to be complaining about the set because of the dual skill.

The key to deal proper damage as a powermancer is having both Close to Death and Axe Training.
With not even full berserker exotics (half knight half zerker) I’m capable to hit 6k+ on Life Blast easily. I think that with full berserker, you’ll be able to hit even more.