Guild Wars 2

I have planned appropriately for failure with regards to this match setup. ._.

Evade != survivability. Show me this against a multiple condition build.

How does this build stack up against Condition Damage? (Pun intended.)

It doesn’t.

The top of your game isn’t the top of the game then.

Signet of Agility
Signet Passive: Grants increased precision.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Agility

Practiced Tolerance
%5 of Precision is converted into Vitality.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Practiced_Tolerance

Equipping Signet of Agility while having Practiced Tolerance as a trait does not increase Vitality/Health. Equipping the signet does increase your Critical Chance number in the Hero Panel, but the Precision number remains unchanged. I would have expected to to increase?

The tooltip is incorrect in that it refers to functionality of the Signet before the April 30, 2013 path.

It would appear there are some inconsistencies between the wiki information, the signet tooltip information, and the signet behavior.

IGN: Damage Dolly
Day Available: Thursday (May 9th)
Record Capability: Local or Stream (Twitch)
NA or EU: NA

Softspoken.2410:

Alright I don’t know about the entirety of this list: maybe some of these nerfs were just too hasty. I personally question the Pistol Whip change, especially in light of how quickness has been altered game-wide. But.

xmtrcv.5236:

October

• Assassin’s Signet: This skill has been updated to grant 15% damage for 5 attacks rather than 50% damage for one attack.

This one absolutely had to happen, and the compensation in the way the new active works is excellent.

I am not saying that any of the nerfs listed were uncalled for, just offering a list and perspective of how Thieves are to play / play against today versus what it had been before.

I do agree with you on that particular change, though. :)

As a follow on, the Thief profession is supposed to excel at single target (one-on-one) direct damage. So, why have the majority of our nerfs resulted in overall damage reduction? That being said, why are there still so many complaints about how we do damage?

Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Updates

2012
September

• Heartskeer: Reduced damage of the 100%-50% threshold by 20%. Damage thresholds changed. Old: 100%-66%, 66%-33%, 33%-0%. New: 100%-50%, 50%-25%, 25%-0%

October

• Assassin’s Signet: This skill has been updated to grant 15% damage for 5 attacks rather than 50% damage for one attack.
• Pistol Whip: Reduced damage by 15%

November

• Dancing Dagger:This skill’s damage has been reduced by 50%
• Tactical Strike: This skill’s damage has been increased by 10% in all formats. This skill’s daze duration has been reduced from 2 seconds to 1.5 seconds in PvP.
• Cluster Bomb: This skill’s damage is reduced by 15% in PvP.
• Cloak and Dagger: This skill’s damage has been reduced by 33% in PvP only.

2013
January

• Spider Venom, Devourer Venom, Ice Drake Venom, Skale Venom, Basilisk Venom, Assassin’s Signet
  The number of uses on this skill’s effect will now decrease if an attack lands or if the attack is negated by Blind, Block, Evade, Obstructed, or Invulnerable.

March
*Stealth: The duration of Revealed has been increased to 4 seconds when coming out of stealth via an attack.

• Quickness: Reduced from 100% attack speed to 50%. (All professions)
• Caltrops: Reduced duration from 15 seconds to 10 seconds.
• Basilisk Venom skill: No longer immobilizes targets in addition to stunning them.

April

• Mug: Can no longer critically hit.
• Trick Shot: First arrow is no longer heat-seeking.
• Stealth: The duration of Revealed has been reverted to 3 seconds in PvE._

There has always been a flavor-of-the-month (or week, or day) complaint meta/campaign regarding Thieves. Some targeted complaints have actually resulted in a matching Thief nerf . Thieves have received many nerfs on skills/traits/utilities that had no previous (perceived) issue, and without any rhyme or reason given as to why.

I would opine that the majority of complaints on the (“OP”) state of Thieves are based on perception versus reality coupled with (garbage in, gospel out) misinformation.

Please refer to this list for the reality and correct information.

“What man does not understand, he fears; and what he fears, he tends to destroy.”

Speaking from strictly a sPvP perspective…

I was always partial to S/x, but when the Pistol Whip nerf came around, I moved over to S/D, trying many variations of S/D builds. Still, on occasion, I would run around with S/P and Tripwire, Pistol Whipping with glee. Less reason to do that now with Larcenous Strike.

I was never a fan of glass-cannon burst D/D, though I did run the weapon set and variations of the build from time to time. You know, for (the dark side) science. ;)

For S/D, the GC-like burst is not there, but I find better results with irregular warfare tactics coupled with constant pressure. With those weapon sets, I feel have more options to fight more classes.

I feel more validated winning fights running S/D and D/P (it seems that SB is currently a weaker option).

Actually, the argument might be better stated that the losing opponent has less to complain about since they did not get killed by a glass cannon Steal/Mug+CnD+Backstab burst Thief.

More often than not, there will still be complaints. There is just something about Thieves…

I get backlash and harassment on occasion, as do all Thieves, I am sure. I recently started keeping screenshots of all the comments directed either at me or Thieves in general. (see signature)

Let the Thief hate flow through you. ;)

Grimwolf.7163:

I’m curious why the nerf is needed in SPvP.

I assume this is part of the PvE+WvWvW / PvP skill split they keep mentioning.

Maybe in the future, any tweaks made to one side (PvE+WvWvW) expect a slight nerf to the same skill on the PvP side?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

ShoeMoney.5249:

If someone asked you to define a thief what would you say in 144 chars or less? Now I know its a fantasy game and not meant to be real life but play a long.

My definition – A Criminal, someone who is willing to do whatever it takes to achieve their goal. No morals or ethics. A bad guy. A outlaw.

My thief is a hero not a criminal. He is born into nobility and recognized as honorable. He’s a good guy and part of society.

But that doesn’t mean he can’t dress in black at night and hunts bad guys.

You just described Batman.

Arganthium.5638:

I have to wonder, though…

… Are we the only community that actually goes to the other forums to tell people how to counter us, and then praises people who give correct advice on how to counter us? :P just a side effect of being one of/the most hate profession in the game, I suppose.

I think this is perfect strategy for easing a lot of the backlash we receive. There can hardly be a valid argument or complaint if the resources exist to educate other classes about Thieves and clear up any misconceptions.

This is especially true Thieves are the primary ones providing said resources (build clarifications/limitations, counter advice, situational awareness about Stealth), and providing the positive feedback to those who reiterate the same information correctly.

A lot of players just want to faceroll around, mash a couple (perceived) IWIN buttons, and win at everything. When reality does not match perception (and vice versa) and no research is done with respect to one class or another, that is when the complaining and hating starts in. :(

Redscope.6215:

Sarrow.2785:

Um…

roll a warrior?

The ultimate counter to thief QQ.

Roll another class and count the minutes until you’re back on your thief.

I actually took a Warrior (crafting/space) alt into PVP after doing some research. I felt like I was in slow motion the entire time. Or maybe it’s just the way Norn females run, but I felt like when fighting as well. Just…clunky.

Needless to say, I was desperate to get back to the graceful ballet that was my Thief. <3

Sir Vincent III.1286:

ensoriki.5789:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

IMHO, the only reason mug exist in almost every build is not directly mug’s fault since it is the only one that makes sense to trait for at that trait level.

Leave mug as is instead fix the other choices so there’s actually something to choose from.

The reason it exists in every build is because your damage without it as a burst oriented build is put under scrutiny and it’s very efficient at what it does partially as a result of being instant. Back fighting and Venom might are fine traits. Corrosive Traps is actually quite good, the issue is bringing traps in the first place.

Are you agreeing with me because that’s exactly what I just said?

Describing the other choices as “fine” and “quite good” says a lot about those alternatives.

That’s like saying Back Fighting and Venomous Strength have “good personalities”, lol.

I have used Tripwire with Corrosive Traps and Pistol Whip with hilarious results, but that was just for testing the “what if”.

Master of Timespace.2548:

@Master of Timespace: I totally see your point with channeled AOE (same principle), but dodges are finite, lol.

Ya, of course dodges are finite. If you are out of dodges when a warrior channels volley, then that’s just too bad. Stealth is not and should not be your magical counter button against everything. Thief mechanics are already way too noob-friendly.

ps. As a thief player I’m amazed that some people think channeled skills need a nerf.

Naturally, I wrote my post in frustration. I have no desire for an IWIN button and I am not trying to insert too much logic in a fantasy game. Channeled skills that require a target is what I am specifying.

Vyxion mentioned Headshot as a counter, which I had totally spaced out on, and I’ll roll with that. There are other Thief things that require much more attention.

Jinks.2057:

Vyxion.6358:

Personally i stopped using offhand dagger completely and traded it for a pistol offhand (making it dagger/pistol).

Because of this I now stop channels with pistol 4 before i stealth, problem quite frankly solved in my case.

So how much initiative do you have mate?

No disrespect but i’ma call bullkitten on this one

Headshot = 4 + Black Powder = 6 + Heartseeker = 3

The above sequence requires 10 Initiative.

Without 15 in Trickery, Initiative is 12. The only option would be to Headshot (assuming D/P) if you have the Initiative.

With 15 in Trickery, Initiative is 15. Headshot still required, but more Initiative buffer (hopefully).

Point being, I’ll save some Initiative for Headshot for channels.

Thanks for the heads-up, Vyxion. Much appreciated.

@Master of Timespace: I totally see your point with channeled AOE (same principle), but dodges are finite, lol.

I will be honest in that coming from S/x, I tend to forget about Headshot. ._.

Stooperdale.3560:

Stealth offers a thief exactly the same protection to a channeled attack as to an instant attack. Don’t be the target when it activates. Remember that a channeled skill is static for a long period of time, it offers no defense, needs the right facing, and it can be interrupted. This already makes them frequently weaker than most instant attacks.

Stealth is not a soft interrupt to a channeled skill. Neither is blind, aegis, or a single dodge and they don’t need fixing either. Use an hard interrupt to counter a channeled skill.

Saying don’t be the target when it activates is akin to insinuating that I can read the player’s mind and preemptively use Stealth (ignoring that I am Revealed, right?)

I have seen Volley start (I was in melee range) and continue to channel/damage me and pivot a Warrior while I was running around him in Stealth (out in the open). By all means, name the hard interrupt I would have used on him at the time as anything but S/P?

An instant attack is just that. Instant and (in Stealth) can be ranged easily in Stealth. Not so with channeled attacks.

Rissou.7213:

Im abusing this daily with dual pistols, if i couldnt shoot other thieves through stealth with unload, i wouldnt be able to kill them.

Does that mean dual pistol need fix or channeled abilities?

I am sure you’ve used it on me. Or someone like you. Maybe if Unload stopped its channel immediately on losing target? Although you would lose the initiative as well, not sure how to recover from that…would be the same thing if your channel got interrupted, perhaps.

I cannot honestly believe channeled spells through Stealth is actually intended.

Even I want to even have a small chance to live, I have to waste my dodges (if I have any) or hope that I can LOS the attack (because that’s always convenient).

It would be a shame if they did not adjust it in some way (for the Thief’s benefit :p) and/or leave it like it is now.

Can we get a developer response on this? This just seems ridiculous with everything else we have to deal with, to completely have “defense” negated in this manner.

Yams.6082:

You can always restealth after the channel ends if you wanted to. Also, don’t forget that even though the channelled attack is tracking you, your opponent still needs to reselect your toon after you come out of stealth to target you again.

Re-stealth? You are operating under the assumption that you live, or after which you had already taken additional damage that your “defense” should have helped you with, yet now you are targetable for 4 seconds. That is assuming you have another stealth skill available to use or you have favorable positioning to do so (CnD).

I wish I could stand there and lazily do damage with my channel and watch my toon’s head swivel in the direction of my kind-of invisible target, completely negating the core ability and “defense” my enemy’s class was based around.

If Stealth is so crucial to our class (you know, in a defensive category, part and parcel to being so “slippery” as the developers put it), answer me this…

Why does Stealth not drop target for channeled abilities? Why is it when I use it defensively to recover or re-position, it lets whoever I am fighting use it against me offensively?

Examples would be the Necromancer Blood Bubbles Leech (up or downed), Warrior Rifle Volley, or tracking me via ranged attacks regardless of line of sight, say if I run around the corner of a building?

Why does it cost me a cooldown, continued damage to me (and possible negation of any regeneration (i.e., “defense”)), and the enemy also gets continued awareness of me/my location (no “defense” there, either) when they use their channeled abilities through my Stealth? Yet it costs them nothing more than merely a cooldown upon finishing the channel.

Melee attacks, AOE, etc. through Stealth, sure and absolutely. Stealth does not (and should not) equal invulnerability. Lord knows we don’t get anything close to that. Channeled spells, however, should require a visible target.

I guess (what seems to be) the ongoing nerfing campaign to Thief weapon skills/abilities as a knee-jerk reaction to complaints could be taken easier if Stealth, as a “defense”, could be relied on more in some situations.