Guild Wars 2

^ That argument is ineffective. One cannot just say, “But the poor loleles will be vulnerable after mist form stomping. That’s why they should be able to invulnerability stomp” because devs strictly have already stated: You cannot capture points or channel while invulnerable. If you can, it is unintended. By that same “pity eles” argument, one could say the same thing about channeling buffs: Eles are vulnerable when channeling buffs on Silent Storm, so they should be able to invulnerability channel them. Right? No. Wrong.

This is a matter of consistency. If invulnerability is intended to only work in this way, in this certain situation, then why shouldn’t the same principle be consistent with related game mechanics? Why are players not able to capture points or channel while invulnerable, yet they can invulnerable channel stomps?

tl;dr Devs are saying " 2 + 2 = 4 " in certain situations, but in other situations, " 2 + 2 = 42, the meaning of life." Say what?

paleeshi.1924:

By you logic then you should prevent stability stomping as well.

Stability =/= invulnerability. A stabilized target can still be pressured off of finishing a downed player, simply through damaging the stabilized target.

The fact that invulnerability-stomping is an actual mechanic also waters down the meaningfulness of stability. There’s a reason why tanky specs tend to have easier access to stability. It’s because they are intended to be better at finishing downed players. However, right now, players can spec into high damage and have no trade-offs with stomping; they can simply invulnerability-stomp to bypass all of the intended weaknesses their spec is supposed to carry.

Devs confirmed that invulnerability is not supposed to let you channel. So, why isn’t this principle applied to stomping as well?

Kylex.5962:

using a cooldown to stomp somebody is a matter of choice and part of the game mechanics.
your comparing a game changing buff to a stomp (5 points)
2 totally different things.

One could argue that a stomp can dictate the outcome of a team fight, which often leads to a victory in the team fight. Who is to say that stomping is not as important as channeling a Silent Storm buff, or capping a point?

In the most recent SotG, the devs said that mist-form channeling the buffs on Silent Storm was unintentional. They said they would apply the same principles as seen when invulnerability makes a player unable to cap a point.

Question: If invulnerability makes you unable to cap a point, and makes you unable to channel cap a buff, then what about finishing downed opponents? Why aren’t those same principles applied to stomping people while invulnerable?

One could say, “But then squishies like Mesmers and loleles would struggle to stomp people.” Perhaps that should be the trade-off for building into so much damage? If one does not have the durability to finish downed opponents, why should they be able to bypass their own weaknesses with the cheesy mechanic of invulnerability-stomping?

Ignorance is bliss.

Not that different from GW1, either. I guess it’s intimidating to non-GW1 players, but it’s pretty mundane and ordinary to the pvp community. We don’t fret too much about titles. Balance is approximately one billion times more important.

And?

All you’ve proven to me is that the current titles in PvP are very meaningful and display to other players that a lot of time and effort was put into earning said titles. That’s cool.

Zenith.7301:

zone.1073:

Anyone who doesn’t think Warriors need a rework, I strongly urge you to 1) go to your character selection screen. 2) Create a Warrior. 3) Find a group, and do paid tournament pvp on said Warrior. Just try it. Experience it yourself.

Your eyes will be opened up by how horrifyingly bad Warriors perform in tournaments in comparison to other classes. If you do see a good Warrior in tourneys, it’s because they are working 200% harder than all other players to reach a level of acceptable mediocrity. That same player could hop onto a different class to remove their own handicap, and perform exceptionally better.

Go to you your character creation screen, and create an Engineer or Necromancer. Those are actually demanding classes.

Especially engineers. For an engineer to succeed, he has to spend the effort of many classes combined.

Also, if you’re craving punishment, run a minion necromancer. No wells. No staff.

Never mind that many top teams in the competitive scene use engineers and necros. Let’s just be ignorant about that? Ok sounds good.

You really do have no idea of what you’re talking about. And that sums up 95% of the people on this forum.

Anyone who doesn’t think Warriors need a rework, I strongly urge you to 1) go to your character selection screen. 2) Create a Warrior. 3) Find a group, and do paid tournament pvp on said Warrior. Just try it. Experience it yourself.

Your eyes will be opened up by how horrifyingly bad Warriors perform in tournaments in comparison to other classes. If you do see a good Warrior in tourneys, it’s because they are working 200% harder than all other players to reach a level of acceptable mediocrity. That same player could hop onto a different class to remove their own handicap, and perform exceptionally better.

Lol… love the thread title change by dev.

Schwahrheit.4203:

Really really really about to call you out on this one. Ask yourself, why should a well played Tank Initiator Hammer ever HAVE DPS when it can bait out stun breaks on a large scale while being able to peel off really well if you have leg specialist?

Because you can bait out stun breaks anyways without devoting your build to “bunker” (I use quotes because bunker warrior is a misnomer, atm). Actually, you can initiate fights better as a damage warrior because of your threat. Enemies want to jump on the damage warrior, not ignore him like they could vs a “bunker/useless” warrior. The damage warrior soaks in the aggro, making it a safer environment for his allies to freely do their jobs as enemies chase the damage warrior around.

If damage warriors can accomplish all these things, then what distinguishes “bunker” warriors then? You like to believe that you are carrying your team by being a “bunker/useless” warrior, but may have not considered that perhaps it is your team that is carrying you. It’s ArenaNet’s fault though, for not making bunker build viable for warriors.

Anyways, warrior needs work. The end. Looking forward to the next update.

(Baiting stun breaker with a 5 second immobilize threat)

If Warriors are designed to be aggressive, ArenaNet needs to provide them with the tools to be aggressive. Shoving a stick into a warrior’s hand and then thrusting them into the middle of an enemy team without survivability options is disastrous. At the very least, give Warriors access to snare-cleansing (reliably cleansing cripples and chills) and perhaps a better heal that promotes aggressive gameplay. Make their heal scale off of the amount of opponents nearby, like Irelia from League of Legends (the more opponents and danger: bigger heal, less opponents: smaller heal).

Defensive/tanky warrior builds should still promote aggressive gameplay to distinguish them from guardians, but right now the warrior’s defensive builds require the warrior to water down their damage to uselessness. At the same time, Warrior’s healing is abysmally weak, and no options for reliable condi removal, so bunker builds are not viable at the moment for warriors. Give bunker builds access to condi removal when doing aggressive plays (F burst skills cleanse a condition, or something).

http://www.twitch.tv/gasmaskftw/b/363009410 (3h 22min in)

You can see my team DTC fighting Gasmask’s team in paids at 3 hours, 22 minutes into that video. It’s in Gasmask’s perspective. DTC is running a warrior, thief, and ele as damage roamers that match.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Correct, the lobbies themselves are not merged, they only meet up when you go to play. You can still invite people across lobbies for games as long as they’re on your server though (Na or Eu).

I’m on Stormbluff now, and people are coming in/out of paids.

Don’t you see the problem with that?

Because Heart of the Mists are not merged, it is difficult for players to find and set up teams. If the lobbies were merged between Homeworlds, people can organize together more easily.

You know how the rank 40+ players find teams? We go on a teamspeak together and organize that way, but that is because we already have the connections with other players. The current lobby does not set up PUGs for success. They’re just kind of straggling in the wind.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Yes, the lobbies are merged for game matching. Also, a lot of the lobbies I’m in seem dead now because a lot more people are playing paid tournaments. So they’re not waiting around in lobby for tournaments to start, they’re in game, so the lobby feels more empty.

The lobbies are not merged. Each server has a separate/unique Heart of the Mists.

PvP match queues are merged.

1) Guess which class gets their overall effectiveness cut in half, 50%, when one, single condition is placed on them.

Answer: NOBODY. Except Warriors.

Fact: Warriors’ effectiveness gets reduced by half when a slow is placed on them. The entire Warrior design relies on movement for gap-closing and disengaging, but movement skill ranges are reduced by 50% by cripple. If cripples affected just regular movement, that would be fine – the fact that cripples affect active mobility skills is just absurd and bad design.

2) Guess which class is forced to go into melee range into an enemy team to be useful, HOWEVER, they have less survivability than thieves.

Answer: You got it! Warriors.

Why are Eles better melee fighters than even Warriors in this game? That’s when you know something is wrong with the Warrior class here – when Elementalists are GW2’s tanky melee bruisers, and Warriors are wannabe assassins who have less survivability than thieves. Warriors are the ones forced to go baIIs deep into an enemy team to be of any use, yet Warriors have the weakest heal in the game (heals for less than 1/4th of the Warrior’s HP with an absurdly long cooldown for its effect in comparison to other classes). The amount of danger a Warrior is forced to put themselves in warrants better healing and mobility, yet they have the weakest healing in the game and no escapability because of point #1. See above. ^

If you guessed both correctly, YOU WIN! YOU ARE A LOGICAL PVPER WHO UNDERSTANDS BALANCE! Now…ArenaNet on the other hand…

As a Warrior player who has played over 2000 tournament matches on Warrior, I would be 100% OK with a tone-down on Hundred Blades and a buff to our healing, mobility (ways to reliably and consistently cleanse cripples and chills) and more viable weapons and build creativity.

ArenaNet wants Warriors to be susceptible to condition damage? Fine. Pile on the bleeds, poisons, and burns. Do it. But give Warriors ways to remove slows (cripples, chills). The fact that Warriors’ mobility skill ranges get cut in half when slowed is the main problem. Warriors need their full range of movement to gap-close and disengage. One slow cuts down the Warrior’s overall effectiveness by at least 50%. That is bad design.

Change Mobile Strikes trait to: movement skills break immobilize, cripple, and chill. Done deal.

Change Healing Signet to a heal over time as its active effect. Remove the regeneration passive and make it cleanse a slow every 10 seconds passively (similar to Guardian’s healing signet, but only applies to slows). Change the active skill to a strong heal over time, similar to Troll Unguent.

That’s it. With those changes, Warriors are one step closer to being viable.

Infiltrator’s Arrow is a full escape; it’s not half-a’ssed like a Warrior’s Rush while crippled. When a Thief shadow shots up an impossible-to-reach ledge, they’re gone. Only classes with blink skills (45+ second cooldowns) can pursue the Thief at that point. Considering there is no cooldown on Infiltrator’s Arrow, that escape needs to be more expensive to do.

Schwahrheit.4203:

Pretty much the same people who complained about the old Eve. It is a fault on the players part for the most part.

Old Eve had no cooldown on her stun. Every time she pops out of stealth, you’re stunned. She runs away for a sec, comes back in stealth, you’re stunned again. Imagine Thief’s class mechanic was a passive Basilisk Venom. Every time a Thief hits you out of stealthed, you get Basilisk Venomed, every time. Heck no. In no way are the two equivalent. GW2’s Thief is slightly balanced – Old Eve broken.

Thieves need a small change to their shortbow. Increase the initiative cost of Infiltrator’s Arrow. The cost to disengage should be more expensive, so there is more thought to the offensive burst (should I spend everything on the burst but risk not being able to shadow shot out? Or should I burst a little bit, but reserve some initiative to escape).

Schwahrheit.4203:

Maybe even buff the Warrior heals to cleanse every type of slows.

Maybe make it Master Yi in feel. The heal cleanses slows and provides immunity to cripple and chills for a couple of seconds.

1) Make the center point an island above the water.

2) Make the cannon more useful and trebuchet-like in importance and overall effect.

Problems solved. Capricorn is now tourney-viable.

Warrior’s Healing Signet dreadfully needs to be changed. Make the healing scale with the amount of opponents nearby (more opponents: bigger heal. Less opponents: less heal). Do something about the Warrior’s useless healing signet.

You know there is a problem with GW2 PvP when Elementalists are better melee fighters than even Warriors in the game. At this point, the Elementalist class should be named as “Warriors,” and the current Warrior class should be renamed as “Punching Bag.”

Warrior’s Heal doesn’t even make sense. Any class that is forced to go melee range into an enemy team surely must be given the proper survival tools to do so. The amount of risk a Warrior must put themselves in to be useful is extreme, so naturally they should be the ones with a strong healing ability, right? Wrong. Warriors have perhaps the weakest healing ability out of all the classes. It heals for less than 1/4 of the Warrior’s HP, on an extremely long cooldown for its effect relative to other classes.

It should be Warriors with a strong, reliable heal like Ether Renewal or the Ranger’s Troll Unguent. Warriors are the ones that are forced to go baIIs deep into an enemy team fight to be of any use, so that amount of danger should be supplemented with a strong, reliable heal.

The most important things about killing D/D Eles are burst, and patience. Don’t send a damage-over-time class to fight an Ele. Don’t send a tanky guy, either. It would be like watching a bunker guardian try to kill another bunker guardian 1v1. No. It needs to be a high burst class, with a player that understands how to weave through an enemy Ele’s defensive cooldowns.

The same principle applies vs any highly sustainable class. In this video, the Warrior fights many classes 1v1, such as Rangers (they may have 5 evasions, plus multiple ways of avoiding or cleansing CC, plus a strong heal over time) and even Guardians (highly sustainable, especially with the Meditations build in the video) and beats them with the same principles of burst with patience.

First video demonstrates the combos and patience with burst (versus the best Ele in the competitive scene, no doubt). That immobilize lasts 5 seconds, so he had to mist form it or else he’d eat an entire non-quickness Hundred Blades. Forcing Eles into situations like that is key.

The key is burst, but patience with burst. Force the ele into a situation where they must mist form prematurely. Then burst.

Make Heart of the Mists free to play. The end. Profit for everyone.

In order to change Thieves, the cheese on Thieves needs to be cleared away. When the cheese is gone and more counter-strategy is built into Thief burst combos, then we can discuss diversifying the Thief.

At least when fighting Warriors, there is room for clear counter-gameplay. The burst is not instantaneous. The Warrior cannot shadow shot up an impossible-to-reach ledge if he messes up. When you engage a Warrior, you fight until he dies, or you die. It feels more “fair” in this sense. When Thieves get to that level, then we can talk about giving Thieves more creative options.

ArenaNet’s current philosophy about balance is to make small, mild tweaks to the system rather than large, sweeping changes. My question is, why? Is this the right way to approach balance?

My opinion? When you’ve gotten the system right, then we can talk about small, mild tweaks to an already nearly-perfect system. But when you have gaping problems, you need more than little band-aid solutions to said problems. Take League of Legends for example. In the early years, Riot Games began with the same mind set of only wanting to do small balance changes because they feared too much change would be bad. However, League of Legends wasn’t going any where in terms of e-sports in those days. It wasn’t until there was an entire revamp of devs on the balance team, with a completely new mind set of tackling large problems with large changes, that got League of Legends to where it is today in terms of success.

Thoughts?

Empowered: This trait should now appropriately increase damage for the Stability boon.

Yes! Now Warriors have a possible bunker option while still being useful because their damage doesn’t turn to poo poo!!! Or perhaps offensive Warriors can build some survivability without being severely punished in effectiveness now! Oh the options!

Wait.

It just seems odd that Warriors, who are supposed to be “masters of weaponry” in this game, are held back by a weapon swap cooldown – not to mention only having a handful of viable weapon choices among the sea of useless trash available. The question is: What is being held back? If Warriors had no weapon swap cooldown (just like how Engineers have no kit swap cooldown), how much worst can it be?

Chi Malady.2015:

It adds a layer of strategy.

Counter strategy?

When an Engineer instantly switches to tool kit with no cooldown and pulls you from 1200 range, where is the counter strategy in that? When an engineer instantly swaps to bomb kit and lays down a knockback bomb, do you view the swap to bomb kit and then counter? Not really, the Engineer can instantly swap to bomb kit at any time with no cooldown – you look and see the bomb on the ground with a large red AoE ring, and you counter accordingly. It’s not the swap to the kit that has layers of strategy, but rather the skills themselves have counter strategy built into them.

Vinhoney.4517:

hiyooo…. not sure if this is serious, but how about making key-binding character-specific instead of account? I don’t want to change key-binding every time I switch to a different profession.

^ This. A MILLION TIMES THIS.

Orangensaft.7139:

because of the sigils that give you special boosts for weapon swap

They have internal cooldowns of ~10-15 seconds built in.

What does the weapon swap CD accomplish in balance?

Take Warriors for example. Why is there a weapon swap cooldown for them? Would there be a significant change in balance if there were no weapon swap CD for Warriors? Would it be any worst than Engineers, who can freely swap between kits with no CD.

Elementalists need an attunement swap CD because they receive extremely powerful effects automatically upon swapping (auto burst heal + regen when going into water, protection from earth, etc). Obviously they need a CD for their swaps. What about other classes, though?

Arheundel.6451:

Finally if you could cleanse launch while flying..there would be no kittening reason of having both launch and kd in this game, just leave kd and what do you expect for stun-breaker going in full CD? It’s like using stun-breaker in the middle of nowhere when you don’t need it.

There is a reason for launches. They move the target, plus knock them down afterward. While knockdowns only symbolically stun the target in place without the actual stun condition, launches move the location of the target. That is reason enough for launches to be useful. Launches do not need to be uncleansable, while also putting stun breakers on full CDs to be useful. The question is whether or not it is intended by devs. The more this is discussed, the more likely that this matter will be brought to the attention of the devs. So, please continue.

Arheundel.6451:

Pls link this build with endless regeneration,protection, really want to see it.
Despite running with a staff and 20 in fire with 2500 armor, I get called bunker when I use burning retreat-lightning flash-gust to keep the enemy away, I get called bunker simply because they can hit me easily…hilarious.
Regarding updraft as “uncleanable”, maybe if you use stun-break after you land( like a clever player does) updraft “magically” become cleanable, I clean updraft every freaking time with my stun-breaker…because I wait to land first, like for every other knock back ( engy,guardian ect ect) do you know the difference between knock down and knock back?

http://www.twitch.tv/phantaram

Here you go. Near constant up time of regeneration and protection while also dealing extreme AoE spikes. If this doesn’t open your eyes about the state of Eles, then you’re just ignorant.

Another important aspect of the game to discuss:
LAUNCHES BEING UNCLEANSABLE. Is this intended? Launch abilities like from Guardian’s hammer and Elementalist’s Updraft cannot be stun-broken while in the air. Furthermore, stun breakers go on a full cooldown when used in an attempt to cleanse a launch. Intended?

If there is a spectrum, Elementalists and Warriors are the two most problematic classes in the game right now, but on opposite sides of said spectrum.

Please discuss:

Elementalist effectiveness. Too efficient? Burst healing and sustain healing-over-time are both too strong? Why are Elementalists better melee bruisers than even Warriors in this game? If anything, please rename the Ele class as “Warrior” and the current warrior rename it to “Punching Bag.”

Warrior sustainability is too weak, considering the amount of danger a Warrior must put themselves in to do something useful. It heals less than 1/4 of the Warrior’s HP on an almost 30 second cooldown. Too much risk, too little reward.

While Elementalists are pampered with endless regeneration, protection, stun auras, chill auras, burst healing, CC that cannot be cleansed (launch from Updraft cannot be stun-broken), Warriors are left with an optional Shield Stance that lasts for 3 seconds and can be canceled by many abilities, and that’s it. Please discuss this with the devs.

Schwahrheit.4203:

Trying to focus on the minor traits to be honest, doesn’t have to be the major traits cause you don’t have to pick some of them anyways…

Also zone, don’t regret it when ANET over-buffs “bunker Warriors” with reliable source of protection. Not even going to remind you on what happened at Kylho today

When we fought 1v1, you had to run away because you couldn’t handle my damage. Imagine if my full team was in that game.

Actually, you have played against full DTC a few times before. You guys get rolled by us, so if you’re trying to prove a point about bunker warriors being viable, you’re not.

Schwahrheit.4203:

Will ANET EVER address the following significantly useless Warrior traits?

1.) Thick Skin
2.) Armored Attack (to a certain extent)
3.) Spiked Armor
4.) Determined Revival
5.) Fast Healer
6.) Reviver’s Might
7.) Discipline Burst Stat
8.) Precise Strikes
9.) Versatile Power
10.) Physical Training
11.) Critical Burst (to a certain extent)

AND adrenaline scarcity/flexibility on a lot of builds?

Add to that list of useless Warrior traits:

1) Powerful Banners (deals 200 damage on banner summon? Really?)
2) Great Fortitude and Armored Attack (conversion ratio needs to be increased in order to be useful)
3) Furious Speed

1) Warrior survivability. Very problematic. Healing is too weak/low (heals less than 1/4th of the Warrior’s HP. Garbage heal considering the amount of risk Warriors must put themselves in). No access to regeneration or protection boons. Bunker spec is not viable. Is it being looked into?

2) AoE damage from trap Rangers (aka, team PZ’s comp), and AoE in general. Very problematic. Being looked into?

3) Elementalist effectiveness. Too efficient?

daydream.2938:

Wreckdum.8367:

zone.1073:

Another wrong move and they can swap to shortbow, shadow shot up an impossible-to-reach ledge.

This is one of the most broken mechanics in the game IMO.

In order to shadowstep, shadow shot, teleport, etc. Any kind of mobility ability should have a ground path requirement to get there. That is flat out imbalanced if a class can get to terrain that other classes can’t.

any class w a teleport can do this. necro/ele etc. But it is kinda a problem.

Other classes can do it, but their teleports have a ~1 minute cooldown.

What’s the cooldown on shortbow’s teleport?

You mean this?

Footage of the best ranger on NA:

http://www.twitch.tv/Vinhungry

Undefeated 1v1. Team PZ, Team Paradigm, Team Cute, JBUO – they all lose to this ranger.

Chi Malady.2015:

And Frenzy is a must with GS. There is no way to get off your entire 100B channel without it.

Well… there are ways. : ) But yes, Warriors are very restricted in builds. Only 1 viable tournament build = broken class that needs to be improved.

Warriors are extremely team-dependent. They must be constantly supported and babied by the rest of the team – essentially being carried – in order to function. No other class is as team-dependent as Warriors. Every other class functions efficiently on their own, so they can contribute much more to the team than Warriors.

A LOT of discussion and 2000+ views in this thread about the same topic: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/We-want-the-Warrior-to-have-a-sturdy-body/first

If anyone has any more interesting suggestions and thoughts, that’s a good place to start. ^

If you have any more thoughts, suggestions, here’s a good place to post:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/We-want-the-Warrior-to-have-a-sturdy-body/first

Nier.2478:

As to why I mentioned Chubbsz and Vain as the ones carrying their respective teams? Because they’re the ones baiting out stun breaks and cleansing conditions for the team.

In short, all Axe + GS Warriors do is wait until everyone’s stun breaks are gone AND they Bulls Charge + Frenzy at the end of the dodge when you do force a dodge. They aren’t doing jack if an Ele isn’t there to initiate or babysit for them. Basically, the Ele’s are the ones carrying in both QT and Synergy. You’re telling me these Warriors can self-sustain with Axe + GS? Nope. Why aren’t they switching to a better build then? Because I can name a lot of better builds and I don’t mind showing you in-game

My back aches.

If Quickness gets removed, Warriors are going to get some major buffs so that they are incredibly strong all the time.

Would you rather have Warriors be super cool every now and then when the stars align and the combos land, or would you rather have Warriors be godly all the time.

People are quick to think “Solution: let’s get rid of Quickness” but fail to think about the repercussions that would result.