Yes… we know Warriors can have high damage numbers. What’s new. Most favorited class in PvE dungeons due to high damage vs brainless A.I. NPCs, blah blah blah.
Keyword: Brainless A.I. NPCs.
Right now, no matter what build, when teams see a Warrior or a Necro, they are automatically the 1st focused target. No matter what. Warrior in sight = KILL HIM NAO. He could have the tankiest build you can imagine the class is possible of, and still teams will focus him first and sadly, it is very effective.
I wonder if the new survivability changes will force teams into making more in-depth decisions when focusing on high priority targets. Will it still be a brainless “KILL WARRIOR FIRST” call, or will it be different. In that case, that will really test the Warrior’s team supporting capability if they’re not focused and killed off first. Suddenly it’s the Warrior that will be peeling for teammates and doing clutch plays to support the team. Who knows.
I’m interested on how Warrior/Necro buffs will change focus priority. Since Warriors are supposedly going to have more survivability, that means they will potentially deal more damage than now because they’re living longer. So, will teams continue to focus Warriors and Necros first, then? How will this change the dynamics of team fights. Surely one cannot just ignore a Warrior.
Because people aren’t aware of how much skill it takes to do well on a warrior in competitive pvp.
So when they die to a warrior, they think “oh that took no skill to kill me” and it’s more upsetting.
We can talk, talk, talk about how game-changing a warrior can be, but the reality is that a dead warrior does not change any tides. Apply pressure on the warrior, and in a matter of seconds, he’s dead and the fight goes on as if the warrior never existed.
When I play warrior, even I target other warriors first. There’s just no good reason not to. They have no way to alleviate pressure. You apply pressure on a warrior, and they’re screwed.
Even when they’re using defensive skills like endure pain or shield stance, I’m still hammering away at the warrior because it’s not like I’m getting punished for hitting a warrior. I’m not taking retaliation damage like a guardian would do to me. In fact, I can still apply conditions on the warrior and even interrupt his shielding as he’s “invulnerable” (…lol) and kill him as he is defending himself. It’s sad.
When did call to arms become a blast finisher??
From the patch with warrior’s new traits.
I think I am dropping shield. It is in beta testing for me.
Shield: the 3 second invuln that also gives your opponents 3 seconds of not taking damage. Also gets canceled by Necromancer’s warhorn and fear mark when traited, Guardian’s wall and sanctuary, Elementalist’s tornado, trebuchet hits. Also conditions can still be mass-applied on the warrior while shielding.
Warhorn: 100% up-time on swiftness, converts 2 conditions into boons for yourself and teammates in an AoE on low cooldown , movement impairment full cleanse, almost perma-vigor, blast finisher, AoE boons for the team.
(edited by zone.1073)
In those videos, you see a warrior performing ok, but the effort-to-results ratio is way off. The warrior in the videos is putting in 200% effort to land skills, evade skills and time everything perfectly, and still the warrior struggled. While other classes are able to get away with making mistakes, the warrior cannot afford to make any mistakes at all or he’ll just outright die.
The reason the warrior was able to survive for so long vs 2 or 3 opponents even, was because the warrior is forced to perform at 200% effort at all times. And still that wasn’t enough to win those encounters without some assistance from teammates. There are some serious flaws in the warrior class. If an experienced warrior player is struggling that much, imagine how it is for average players or beginners. It’s a nightmare.
Watch Hman during the EU tournaments and you’ll see that it is true; even the most experienced warrior players are not allowed to make even the smallest mistake, and they struggle against other classes extremely. As a warrior, everything is a very uphill battle.
I agree though, longbow’s burst does have its shining moments.
vs Cruuk + Sataarcoeny:
(edited by zone.1073)
Agreed but wow has the game digressed. Looks like the warrior is becoming more like other classes with less counterplay. Long bow burst skill covering way more than a point now? Is that really the ideal change to help buff the weapon? I mean really…
No no, all warriors are pretty much the same as 3 months ago (greatsword, berserker’s amulet, focusing on cleaving targets). My warrior is just very weird, and can seem overwhelming to opponents because they aren’t used to fighting against my build.
Anas Tarcis is another weirdo who tries out new things. We are one of the only warrior players who still experiment with builds in tournament pvp regularly.
(edited by zone.1073)
ohh man it’s the guy that ran that double war team with schwar or the other way around months ago lol kill me please
I haven’t played vs Anas Tarcis recently but he was…ok. I applaud him for his effort in trying different things though.
(edited by zone.1073)
Real fast, it’s Sunday, so I’ll keep this quick:
Yes, Warrior needs more help in PvP, but is already strong in PvE. Due to that you may see some new splits happening between the gametypes as far as balance goes, and you may also see new traits to help Warriors find a way into team comps.
Jonathan,
Have you considered that Warriors were actually fine as they were during beta? that perhaps their seemingly high damage was due to other classes building squishy + not knowing how to play.
You keep saying that you don’t want to do whack-a-mole balance, and yet taking away the warrior’s burst seemed like a very knee jerk reaction.
Make rangers’ pets scale directly off of the rangers’ stats. That way, glassy rangers have strong, glassy pets, and tanky rangers do not, which encourages them to get utility/survivable pets instead.
Right now, why use tanky pets when you can use pets that crit for 6k even for bunker rangers? More diversity in pet choices. More logical game mechanics (bunkers critting for 6-8k is awkward balance). Done and done.
Winning matches with a team does not necessarily always mean you’d want to play with those teammates again.
An individual player carrying a heavy team to victory is one example. They’d probably want to hightail out of there ASAP. Or if there’s a leaver/AFKer on your team and you still win, you’d probably not want to queue with that team again.
If this idea was implemented and you insta-queue with your existing pug team, you run the risk of insta queue-pops, which obligates you to continue with your crummy team in some instances.
Better suggestion: Put an add-friend button on the scoreboard next to every teammate’s name at the end of the match. That would make friending easy and painless, so afterwards you could actually put together a team you want to play with, and queue together. This would work well with separated solo/premade queue system, too.
P.S. Add a Report Player button next to everyone’s name on the scoreboard at the end of a match, too, to make it easier for players to report leavers/AFKers, bugs, exploits, trolls, feeders, etc.
(edited by zone.1073)
Just treat the downed state HP as an extension of the player’s normal HP pool. Tada. No more “downed state”. In fact, from this perspective, you will be glad that there’s a downed state, as the stomp is a shortcut to killing players.
They were given a buff recently. They are an off tank class. If you want to defend, roll a guardian.
If by “off tank class” you mean warriors are squishy as heII and as tanky as a piece of wet toilet paper, then yes I agree.
the main reason I can think of is this..
a ranger is the only pet mechanic class in the game end of..
the reason i say this is simple.. a ranger HAS to take his pet into a fight.. necro minions are optional.. clones on the other hand kinda have to be use/taken but they are just clones of you.. you go down.. technically they go down..
ranger is a different story.. we have a bond with a separate life for that is still alive if we go down.. and seeing as we have that bond.. he doesn’t want to see me die..
not what you want to hear.. but it’s close to the truth behind the reasoning for this..
…
Pets disappear when the ranger gets moa transformed, and the ranger is unable to use F1-4 skills while moa transformed.
Clearly F1-4 skills are not intended to be available in these situations. It is a bug that F1-4 can be used by downed rangers.
Yeah zone, we can all see you’re frustrated to tears with your whining posts.
I got to my place on the leaderboard by playing a ranger, son.
Your post sums up the reasons why there is such a small competitive community right now. Majority of players are just knuckleheads unwilling to learn or listen.
There is no denying that the downed ranger’s lick wounds is incredibly powerful and effective. The only way to stop a pet from completing the revive is to kill the pet. However, time spent damaging the pet is time spent not stomping or dealing damage to the downed ranger, which further opens the window of opportunity for him to get assistance from teammates. The only definitive way to quickly take out the downed ranger is stability, but even then, the downed ranger can contribute either a huge chunk of damage, or a huge amount of CC to opponents before they die.
While most other downed classes will simply chuck a few rocks and then die to a stability stomp, downed rangers can do much, much, MUCH more before being ended by a stability stomp.
Sure ranger vs other down players is strong, but warriors can beat us, as well consider for a second the rangers alive vs dead abilities. Other classes can disappear or any variety of things to plant a player. How about a aoe invis to heal people, as you said you can not look at it in just 1 way. In all the downed player scenario’s at best were very good in downed vs downed compared to most classes, but easily not as good in others.
It should not be surprising that the warrior’s downed state “beats” (more like “equalizes”) ranger in downed state, but it does not necessarily mean the warrior’s downed state is better.
In LoL terms, ranger’s downed state = Karthus + Anivia when killed. A downed ranger can either deal a massive amount of burst to opponents in a small time frame, or offer enough CC to sway the tide of a fight in the form of 2 fears, 2 knockdowns, and an AoE daze. In other words, a downed ranger deals more damage to opponents than a downed necromancer, and more CC disruption than a downed engineer.
What makes a downed necromancer unique, then, if a downed ranger out-damages them? What makes a downed engineer unique if a downed ranger has the potential for more devastating CC? And what makes warrior’s downed state unique if they simply have an equalizer effect (un-traited), while the downed ranger has the potential to actually revive fully?
(edited by zone.1073)
Underwater is a known bug that even Rangers want fixed Vanthian. On land however Lick Wounds is in serious need of a fix (due to that 50% chance of it actually working).
Lick Wounds only fails if the terrain does not permit the pet to return to the downed ranger smoothly. To 100% counter this issue, simply swap pets before using Lick Wounds. Pet appears next to the ranger upon swap. Problem solved.
yeah I’ve got to say this is a weak one, the pet doesn’t heal fast enough to out do someone elses damage in most cases or we have 1 interupt you can easily flag plant us faster.
Using the argument of “living player vs downed ranger” is not a good way to measure the power of the ranger’s downed state abilities.
Rather, you need to compare the downed state of other classes side by side with the ranger in order to truly understand how powerful the ranger’s downed state is. Downed rangers beat everyone who is downed also, and they can even beat downed warriors depending on the initial distance between the two.
Even in the “living player vs downed ranger” scenario, rangers have a significant advantage over other classes who are downed vs a living opponent. Rangers with dual DPS pets can burst living opponents with back-to-back F2 pet skills while downed (6-8k burst from the first pet, another 6-8k burst from second pet). If the ranger went with the CC pet route, they have the potential to interrupt the opponent’s stomp enough times to easily gain access to Lick Wounds (fear, knockdown, #2 daze, swap pets, fear, knockdown). In a team fight situation, this makes it much easier for allies to assist the downed ranger.
(edited by zone.1073)
Oh god, you people think troll unguent is magic.
If you used it in the beginning of the fight, the heal will be useless for the duration your HP is at 100%. So when you start taking damage, it won’t have full duration and will NOT heal you all up. You will have to survive 15 seconds without any heal ability. The only real benefit of troll unguent over heal as one is the 120% healing scale, other than that it loses in all aspects.
Because enemies will sit and stare at the ranger at the beginning of a fight in a 1v1 or 1v2, of course, right? Since all of their damage will be mitigated by the preemptive Troll Unguent; might as well just give up and /sit at the start of the fight, correct?
It would be helpful if the leaderboard rank of everybody posting on these forum was displayed next to their name, so we know precisely who to discredit and ignore.
(edited by zone.1073)
With troll unguent you only got 2 condition wipes every 10 seconds, after which an opponent can stack conditions on you, and evades won’;t do anything to stop those conditions ticking.
TU also trades in long duration sustain for the ability to be bursted. TU isn’t gonna do crap when you’re getting trained by 2-3 people. You will be spiked down and even if you can stay alive for a bit you won’t be killing anybody or knocking them offpoint like a guardian or ele can.
Troll Unguent has a longer cast time, and it does nothing for teamfights whereas the superior healing spring does (and with runes of dwayna you can gain perma regen and high vigor uptime in addition to blasting on a high duration water field that also cleanses conditions every 3 secs off you and your teammaes).
If anything, troll unguent needs to be made more useful, because it’s only used by bunker rangers and trapper and GC rangers will never use it because they will day way faster than the healing will kick in.
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what type of ranger people are complaining about here. We’re not talking about glass cannons. This type of ranger does not team fight. The so-called “immortal ranger” as indicated by the thread title excels in 1v1s, 1v2s, and 2v2s, and that’s how it should only be used. It’s a home point holder or a far point assaulter. And it’s exceptionally great at both of those roles. Perhaps too great. Troll Unguent is a very big factor to why the ranger succeeds so much in these roles.
The most powerful aspect of rangers isn’t their pet (does 0 damage on moving targets), or their evades (telegraphed; easily predictable and countered), or their condi removal (on par with other bunkers).
It’s their heal.
What makes Troll Unguent so strong is that it can be used preemptively. It’s an 8.5k HP heal over 10 seconds, but it can be used when the Ranger is at full HP right before a fight breaks out. This effectively makes the cooldown of Troll Unguent only 15 seconds for the next one.
With a well-timed Troll Unguent, a Ranger with no healing stat is basically healing for 17k HP over a short period of time. It is, by far, the strongest heal in the game, and it is the reason why rangers seem to have an immovable HP bar. Troll Unguent’s cooldown says it’s 25 seconds, but when you factor in all of the seconds of invulnerability the Ranger has from evasions and dodge rolls from perma vigor, and the fact that you can preemptively cast Troll Unguent, that cooldown is much, much shorter than stated.
(edited by zone.1073)
It would also be nice if we could see which team was capping. Right now we are only informed that a point is being contested by the cross-swords icon on top of the screen, but not by which team.
3) BM rangers pets
Powerful does not necessarily mean imbalanced. Powerful is good. We need more things that are powerful and work. People seem to forget what BM rangers are giving up for having a strong pet: They have no AoE; all single target damage. No team fight presence. Pets die from AoE = useless ranger in team fights.
Warriors don’t have enough defensive options to melee, and their ranged options are still weak. That’s all. Warriors will become viable when ArenaNet decides to make them viable by giving them defense options so they’re like every other class in the game.
People are not understanding that the key to increasing competition in PvP and having more teams form up is by separating solo queue from 5-man team queue.
Separation allows for more accurate, meaningful rating, and more appropriate matchmaking to facilitate growth in player skill.
Also adding divided brackets or tiers to tournament queues (X rating required to queue) gives players goals to strive to achieve. Instead of the mindlessly bashing of one’s head into a brick wall that is the current tournament PvP, suddenly players can strive to enter silver tier, gold tier, diamond tier, platinum tier, etc. When competition increases, teams naturally are more likely to form.
Why bother asking for split ques now? This would just make it even worse.
So solo queue pugs need to be fed to premades to satiate their rating diet. Is that your ultimatum?
There’s a difference between a Rambo and a dumba’ss. A skilled, experienced player can pull off a Rambo and APPEAR to be in deep trouble, only to successfully bait the enemy team into a bad situation and turn everything around. (Example, chasing the BM ranger with the 1000-range leap every 6 seconds…not so smart for the opposing team)
A dumba’ss just runs in and dies.
no its not normal because it happens every other time immediately after respawn. it is a glitch, but thanks for your confusing input
Yes it only happens when you’re out of combat. That’s how adrenaline works. There is a window of time before adrenaline begins draining out of combat.
It’s normal. It means you’ve been out of combat for too long.
It should be more desirable to create a team then solo queue, everyone complains non stop about how good teams have it. Except no one wants to be bothered making/joining a team so they don’t have to deal with it.
This is a valid point. The reason is because there is no incentive to create a team. No major tournaments to try hard for. No interesting rewards for doing well as a team. No recognition for all the time, energy and effort it takes to create (and more importantly, maintain) a team. If there was incentive, more teams would be formed.
However, solo queue should still be separated from team queue in order for ratings to be clean and accurate, and provide more useful information pertaining to player skill. Better, more balanced matchmaking would arise from this, too.
There also needs to be rating brackets introduced, so rank 60s aren’t getting paired with rank 2’s by the system.
With these current leaderboards, players (leechers?) who are pampered and carried by their premade are celebrated graciously, but the solo queuers who actually do have to deal with a lot of hardship receive no recognition.
It goes without saying that solo queue is PvP on Hard Mode. Dealing with AFKers, leavers, single digit ranked players, post-patch warriors (lul) on a regular basis is not fun. Carrying your team through that feels awful. But those kind of victories mean a lot. Despite that, solo queuers are not recognized at all by the current leaderboards.
The idea is great, but the implementation is not. When solo queue is eventually separated from team queue, which any sane human being at ArenaNet would do (…right?), leaderboards really need to be reset. Right now the data is very contaminated; player skill is not represented accurately by the current ratings.
Thoughts?
I like how getting carried and being a leech is celebrated by everyone right now, but the solo queuers who actually do have to go through a lot of hardship get no recognition. ANet leaderboard logic.
In a previous SotG discussion, ArenaNet stated that they are working on rating-specific queues.
Multiple queues, each with their own rating brackets. This will coincide with when they make rating visible.
People feel sentimental about their builds because this game is indeed lacking build variety. As soon as people discover a working build, they all jump on the same train because they know it’s a build that works, and there aren’t many other options.
If this game had more variety of possible viable builds, people probably wouldn’t feel as sentimental/secretive. It would just be like a deck of cards; each build is just another card in the pile.
2 steps are necessary:
Separate solo queue from 5-man team queue.
Break up solo queue into tiers.
Bronze
Silver
Gold
Matchmaking system will only pull from the pool of players within the same tier as you. Bronze-rated players only play with bronze-rated players. Silver-rated players only play with silver-rated players. Etc.
^ This = Good.
Education is key to building a competitive PvP community.
Besides, true skill is displayed through excellent performance in gameplay, not through the ignorance of the opponent. There is no reason to keep secrets.
Everyone seems to be forgetting that melee is god strong and king of GW2; it’s just that warriors don’t fill those shoes. It’s eles.
In fact, I’d argue that warriors make terrific ranged fighters, moreso than even ele’s ranged spec. Longbow on warrior is very viable right now. And that sums up the wonderful, whacky world of GW2.
(edited by zone.1073)
Sigh, beast master traited signet rangers have always been extremely powerful duelists for God knows how long. It’s just that everybody has been riding the condi-train for rangers that nobody realized the hidden potential until now, when ArenaNet points a giant fat finger: “Hey everyone! We buffed signets and pets! Use them!”
I’ve known this because we have Vinhoney, the obnoxiously good ranger on team DTC who has been running this spec since the beginning of time. When we were active, we were beating PZ, Paradigm, JBUO, etc with this spec. And now his favorite build just got better with this patch… Sigh.
(edited by zone.1073)
Thief’s trick shot hits 3 targets for incredibly good damage.
Just fire at the target next to the one strafing left and right. It will bounce and hit both.
End of discussion.
4k healing to potentially 5 players = 20k HP healing.
A teammate picks up the banner and uses the healing = another 20k HP healing.
Another teammate picks up banner = another instant 20k HP heal.
Etc.
Yeah, no. Not going to happen. Also, I think the banner actually was buffed, though. It used to heal for 450 HP (not including Regeneration). Pitiful, yes. Now it heals for 900 HP, so double that.
I highly doubt everyone would receive the same of amount healing when using compassionate banner unless everyone in that group happens to have healing power. If that would be the case since then it should be a shared cool down. I know for sure everyone want roll a healing warrior because they’re use to them being a monster truck profession than a muscular medical field nurse in heels.
Being solo with this build can be rough because you are not putting a lot of damage out as other professions. If the heals have to be very low they can at least buff Healing signet regen and Adrenal Health a bit. If 4k is a lot for compassionate healing when having high healing power then reduce it by 50% making it 2k. Otherwise there is really no point on making a bunker healing warrior.
That is one way of cutting off the diversity build for them.
It is a 2k heal currently, counting regen.
Just fire at the target next to the one strafing left and right. It will bounce and hit both.
4k healing to potentially 5 players = 20k HP healing.
A teammate picks up the banner and uses the healing = another 20k HP healing.
Another teammate picks up banner = another instant 20k HP heal.
Etc.
Yeah, no. Not going to happen. Also, I think the banner actually was buffed, though. It used to heal for 450 HP (not including Regeneration). Pitiful, yes. Now it heals for 900 HP, so double that.
The first step to creating a healthy, competitive PvP community to act as the foundation for e-sports is education. Everything is about education – to transform the casual player into a competitive one.
We see this in League of Legends, too, in the form of public mastery and rune pages, match histories showing item builds, and of course streaming. Competitive players do not need to concern themselves with secrets, because true skill relies on exceptional gameplay from the player, rather than on the ignorance of his opponents.
(edited by zone.1073)
Yes I remember that. There were some sudden changes to warriors on release that were not even discussed or approved by alpha testers yet. They just slipped in…similar to how ANet slipped in the Quickness nerfs recently without even mentioning it during the SotG discussion a day before.
And that shows how close warriors are to being in a good place. They don’t need huge changes. As I’ve been advocating for months now, warriors just need some more options to counter slows (ways to remove cripples, chills), some more sustained healing over time, and a way to obtain moderately decent damage without having to build glassy. Thank the gods that all 3 of these issues are being addressed next patch!
(edited by zone.1073)