Guild Wars 2

DarkSpirit.7046:

Besides, this thread is all about claiming that the watchwork pick is P2W because it returns more gold, in the form of sprockets, than you put into buying the pick itself.

ITT: Yet another person that hasn’t actually paid any attention to the thread as a whole and has instead latched onto sprockets and P2W.

Christ, at least mtpellion had the decency to actually acknowledge that only a subset of people within the thread were actually saying anything about P2W. Then again, he, unlike yourself, actually has elementary reading comprehension.

Maybe you should consider some classes next door to the elementary math students.

Gene Archer.8560:

Christ, at least mtpellion had the decency to actually acknowledge that only a subset of people within the thread were actually saying anything about P2W. Then again, he, unlike yourself, actually has elementary reading comprehension.

Maybe you should consider some classes next door to the elementary math students.

Are you saying that watchwork pick is such a big problem in the game right now that this old thread has to stick around forever?

What a laugh! People are endlessly complaining about something that is not even buy-able right now. Worse than that, it is not even worth buying at its price when it was buy-able!

People just ran out things to complain so they decided to complain about the item being P2W when it was too expensive to be worth it then and not even buy-able now!

People who complained against the watchwork pick are just too stupid to perform elementary school math. Worse than that, they have driven the discussion into wrongful accusations against Arenanet being P2W.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Are you saying that watchwork pick is such a big problem in the game right now that this old thread has to stick around forever?

This thread was good and dead for over two weeks until people decided to bump it and mock the people who were against the pick, with all their: “LOOK AT MY WINNING WITH THESE SPROCKETS, GUYS HUR HUR HUR !!!oneoneone”

Furthermore, if you think the thread needs to die and is so unnecessary, why the hell have you been posting in it, thus bumping it up back to the top?

And even further than that furthermore: What in the bleeding hell does any of what you just posted have anything to do with what I posted, at all?

Clearly you have yet to take those reading comprehension courses. I told you: They’re next door to those elementary math courses.

DarkSpirit.7046:

People who complained against the watchwork pick are just too stupid to perform elementary school math.

And you’re too stupid too actually comprehend what you read, so hey, good for you. You have something in common with the people who can’t perform elementary school math.

If you think that those who accused ArenaNet of being P2W were wrong then why didn’t you respond until now? Unless you, who are against the pick in the first place, wanted to create more trouble for ArenaNet in order to pressure them to remove the pick from the game.

So I don’t think you are any better than those who claimed ArenaNet to be P2W since you have allowed the discussion to degenerate into such wrongful accusations in the first place as it suited your needs.

DarkSpirit.7046:

If you think that those who accused ArenaNet of being P2W were wrong then why did you not respond until now?

I bleeding responded in the original thread by Vol, the one that either I or someone else (I honestly forget at this point) posted after Vol’s got closed, and this one as well, back when the watchwork pick was a thing and the actual storm or whatever you want to call it was brewing.

The only one late to the kittening party is yourself. By two weeks. And yet you felt the need to post here despite thinking that the thread was unnecessary.

DarkSpirit.7046:

So I don’t think you are any better than those who claimed ArenaNet to be P2W since you have allowed the discussion to degenerate into such wrongful accusations in the first place.

I have stated time and again, now, and back then, that it was never about sprockets. That it was never about P2W. I have stated multiple times that it was about things like precedent, making the older picks obsolete, all that other stuff that was brought up.

The only ones ignoring those arguments are yourself and the people like you who see someone else say P2W and then you latch on to it and steer everything toward that, refusing to let go and ignore those arguments and instead engage arguments that aren’t about P2W.

It’s not my fault that you’re literally fixated on P2W and P2W alone.

Gene Archer.8560:

The only one late to the kittening party is yourself. By two weeks. And yet you felt the need to post here despite thinking that the thread was unnecessary.

And by responding just at the time when I have shut all the P2W complainers up, just sounded hypocritical to me, especially if you claim to not be supporting their P2W argument.

I have stated time and again, now, and back then, that it was never about sprockets. That it was never about P2W. I have stated multiple times that it was about things like precedent, making the older picks obsolete, all that other stuff that was brought up.

The only ones ignoring those arguments are yourself and the people like you who see someone else say P2W and then you latch on to it and steer everything toward that, refusing to let go and ignore those arguments and instead engage arguments that aren’t about P2W.

It’s not my fault that you’re literally fixated on P2W and P2W alone.

Honestly I also don’t agree with the original argument. The gem store items are as pathetic as they have always been and ArenaNet does have the right to improve on their offerings.

It is like saying, I farmed hard for champion bags for the past 2 months and I would be against them adding better items into the bags right now. That kind of argument just sounds very selfish and not good for the gaming population as a whole.

The P2W arguments were so obviously flawed that it was my pleasure to take them apart since nobody else did. The original argument also doesn’t make much sense as there are many cases of improved offerings in the real world. Furthermore, if you don’t want ArenaNet to give a better deal later to someone else, then in the real world, you would ask them to sign a contract with you. But that would cost you much more than 1000 gems, I am sure.

DarkSpirit.7046:

And by responding just at the time when I have shut all the P2W complainers up, just sounded hypocritical to me, especially if you claim to not be supporting their P2W argument.

>Implying you successfully did anything or were the reason for anything at all. When our posts are an hour apart at most. And it was already 10 PM on the West Coast, and Midnight on the East Coast.

And this just proves that you really don’t have reading comprehension. Because how can I be defending P2W when what my post said was that one of the biggest problems was that people like yourself were continuing to latch onto the P2W arguments which weren’t at all important.

Thus the quip about mtpellion doing unlike yourself, and actually having the decency to acknowledge that there were arguments aside from P2W. Which he did. Not in a fashion I would have liked. But by god, he/she is at least a decent enough person to understand those other arguments even exist and are a thing.

DarkSpirit.7046:

It is like saying, I farmed hard for champion bags for the past 2 months and I would be against them adding better items into the bags right now. That kind of argument just sounds very selfish and not good for the gaming population as a whole.

That analogy doesn’t fit at all because it ignores the part where the unlimited tools involve money. Also that part where ANet reintroduced the regular unlimited tools and then a week later brought out one that is better than them.

It also ignores the part where they would have wound up with less sales, because people would just continually sit, waiting for the next best tool. Why get the one that drops sprockets when you can get one that’s even better than that? One that drops sprockets AND cake (or whatever item you wish, the items being dropped are frankly, unimportant to the argument)

It was a form of cash shop vertical progression, among other things. It wasn’t cool, and the game is better for it not happening again with the thresher.

If your big complaint is that cashshop items in this game aren’t worth the money, there’s a very simple solution: Petition to have ANet lower the gem prices for items.

DarkSpirit.7046:

The P2W arguments were so obviously flawed that it was my pleasure to take them apart since nobody else did.

So we’re going to ignore everyone else’s posts that came before you showed up late to the party?

Okay, chief. Whatever you say. You’re the hero of the day or whatever. Release the party balloons and confetti and the clown from the rafters.

DarkSpirit.7046:

The original argument also doesn’t make much sense as there are many cases of improved offerings in the real world.

And times have changed and many businesses now allow you to upgrade to the newest thing at reduced costs by trading in the old, especially when that old item in question gets outdated only a week later.

You and ANet need to get with the times, clearly.

Gene Archer.8560:

>Implying you successfully did anything or were the reason for anything at all. When our posts are an hour apart at most. And it was already 10 PM on the West Coast, and Midnight on the East Coast.

And this just proves that you really don’t have reading comprehension. Because how can I be defending P2W when what my post said was that one of the biggest problems was that people like yourself were continuing to latch onto the P2W arguments which weren’t at all important.

Thus the quip about mtpellion doing unlike yourself, and actually having the decency to acknowledge that there were arguments aside from P2W. Which he did. Not in a fashion I would have liked. But by god, he/she is at least a decent enough person to understand those other arguments even exist and are a thing.

Then why didn’t you stop them then? It is always convenient and hypocritical to say this after I have done all the work.

That analogy doesn’t fit at all because it ignores the part where the unlimited tools involve money. Also that part where ANet reintroduced the regular unlimited tools and then a week later brought out one that is better than them.

And the real world doesn’t involve money? ArenaNet is free to reintroduce the regular unlimited tool as they have different animation. Perhaps some users would still prefer the animations of the older tools.

It also ignores the part where they would have wound up with less sales, because people would just continually sit, waiting for the next best tool. Why get the one that drops sprockets when you can get one that’s even better than that? One that drops sprockets AND cake (or whatever item you wish, the items being dropped are frankly, unimportant to the argument)

You don’t know that for sure. Besides if they do have less sales then that is their problem, not yours. If you prefer the watchwork pick then go buy it instead. There is nothing in any contract that says ArenaNet can’t experiment with their own market.

It was a form of cash shop vertical progression, among other things. It wasn’t cool, and the game is better for it not happening again with the thresher.

If your big complaint is that cashshop items in this game aren’t worth the money, there’s a very simple solution: Petition to have ANet lower the gem prices for items.

I disagree. Anything that creates more variety in their cash shop and giving players more option would be cool.

It sounds like you are just jealous that ArenaNet introduced what you perceived to be a better pick than the one you bought from them earlier. Having a better offering is better for the player base as a whole. Too bad you are too self-centered to realize that.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Then why didn’t you stop them then? It is always convenient to say this after I have done all the work.

I can no more stop them from going on about P2W than I can stop you from going on about P2W, clearly.

I don’t…I don’t understand what you’re expecting from me, exactly? I’ve said that the thread wasn’t about P2W. I’ve brought up arguments other than P2W. I in fact, beat you to it, because I posted in this thing called the “past” (you may have heard of it). You continually ignored those arguments and latched onto the P2W ones.

Do I need to come to your house and hold your head and directionally steer your eyes to the non-P2W arguments?

And the real world doesn’t involve money?

What? I quoted something about champ bags and suddenly you’re going on about the real world? I…what?

The specific analogy I quoted was about champ bags, which are in an in game phenomena. Nothing in that quoted section had anything to do with real life, aside from the real life part of unlimited tools involving money. Do you even remember what you’re talking about at this point?

Unless the real world changed and I can go to work, take out my boss, and a loot bag now drops as their corpse magically fades away? And if that’s the case, why did nobody inform me that reality was that crazy?

Hell, my boss is lucky I like her and thinks she’s cool. It means I won’t be attacking her weak point for massive damage.

ArenaNet is free to reintroduce the regular unlimited tool as they have different animation. Perhaps some users would still prefer the animations of the older tools.

And this just misses the point entirely of what I was talking about, there. In fact, the rest of your post just misses the point. Missing the point is all you seem to do. You can’t even keep your own stuff straight, talking about real life when the quote was in regards to champ bags, and…I’m just confused at this point.

I don’t get you. I don’t even get what you personally are arguing anymore. Much less why you are, since you think this thread is useless or whatever.

Mtpellion I get. I don’t agree with them, but I get what they’re saying and where they’re coming from. But you are a kittening enigma.

DarkSpirit.7046:

dAcIaW.5107:

I think Anet should just delete all the sprocket picks from the game and call it good, it would be in line with what they like to do. For example remove people’s fractal achievements moving them down from 80 to 30, or making glory boosters totally pointless but not providing any sort of compensation of any sort.

Don’t forget to refund the price if they deleted items that people have actually paid for. They would be able to buy more sprockets with their refund than with the pick itself.

Or better yet, actually introduce something in their gem store that is mathematically proven to be worth buying FOR ONCE!

Hopefully, I know this would never happen, people here would learn how to perform elementary school math on item pricing before they claim something to be P2W when they are really P2L.

lol refund? Na just remove them. (Ya i know they would for this because people spent real money on them but they never compensated people for removing their fractal levels or when removing glory converting the glory boosters into something of worth (after all they were obtained from achievement chests n stuff so way to give us a worthless reward))

Obtena.7952:

dAcIaW.5107:

still waiting i guess

Me too. At 50c, P2win with sprockets is going to take a long time.

Guess what, they are 1s 30c already

@gene don’t feed the trolls. (We’ve all learned to ignore certain individuals.)

The item is clearly the worst in the cash shop and sets a precedent nobody wants. Whatever you call that, P2W or cash-shop grabbing, or simply shooting your paying customer base in the foot by releasing the same item which is infinitely better for no reason other than making more $$$, the result is ultimately the same. And Anet not responding to these concerns is as bad as communication to one’s paying customer base gets.

dAcIaW.5107:

lol refund? Na just remove them. (Ya i know they would for this because people spent real money on them but they never compensated people for removing their fractal levels or when removing glory converting the glory boosters into something of worth (after all they were obtained from achievement chests n stuff so way to give us a worthless reward))

I am not going to support any suggestion to break the law by proposing that ANet tries to screw their players by not giving them the goods they paid for after taking their money.

Malediktus.9250:

Obtena.7952:

dAcIaW.5107:

still waiting i guess

Me too. At 50c, P2win with sprockets is going to take a long time.

Guess what, they are 1s 30c already

Guess what, at the cost 1000 gems, I can already afford to buy 5000+ sprockets instead of buying the pick. How many years do you think it would take for you to mine 5000+ sprockets with the pick to break even? You failed elementary school math when what you call as P2W is actually P2L.

@Gene: What Arenanet did is legal and it is good for the gaming community to get better items from their gem store at the same price. Trying to restrict that is to force them to sell old crappy stuff in their gem store so that you can maintain some perceived advantage for yourself. It has a selfish purpose and it is bad for everyone else so why should we support that?

DarkSpirit.7046:

dAcIaW.5107:

lol refund? Na just remove them. (Ya i know they would for this because people spent real money on them but they never compensated people for removing their fractal levels or when removing glory converting the glory boosters into something of worth (after all they were obtained from achievement chests n stuff so way to give us a worthless reward))

I am not going to support any suggestion to break the law by proposing that ANet tries to screw their players by not giving them the goods they paid for after taking their money.

They did give you the item that you paid for, and now it is time for them to take it away, which I am pretty sure they can do legally because everything in the game is still their property and they can do with it as they want (pretty sure it says something along those lines in the ToS)

dAcIaW.5107:

DarkSpirit.7046:

dAcIaW.5107:

lol refund? Na just remove them. (Ya i know they would for this because people spent real money on them but they never compensated people for removing their fractal levels or when removing glory converting the glory boosters into something of worth (after all they were obtained from achievement chests n stuff so way to give us a worthless reward))

I am not going to support any suggestion to break the law by proposing that ANet tries to screw their players by not giving them the goods they paid for after taking their money.

They did give you the item that you paid for, and now it is time for them to take it away, which I am pretty sure they can do legally because everything in the game is still their property and they can do with it as they want (pretty sure it says something along those lines in the ToS)

So after paying full price for your car, they take it back after you have driven it for a day is legal? That is ridiculous! Just because you overpaid for your convenience doesn’t mean everyone now has to be screwed because you are angry and jealous.

As for the old picks, you paid for it as they were. They didn’t gain or lose any functions so those transactions were legal. There is nothing that says ArenaNet cannot sell them for a cheaper price or even improve on their functions at the same price later to benefit everyone else.

Don’t worry, suggestions to remove the pick are shortsighted. Legal or not, Anet would have a PR disaster if they removed the pic. People expect value for money and Anet is a business that understands that. Simple deleting the pick would not meet that expectation.

BTW, where do sprockets come from if you don’t have picks? How much would you be willing to pay for a sprocket? People better be careful of the tremendous lack of thought put into a suggestion like that.

dAcIaW.5107:

DarkSpirit.7046:

dAcIaW.5107:

lol refund? Na just remove them. (Ya i know they would for this because people spent real money on them but they never compensated people for removing their fractal levels or when removing glory converting the glory boosters into something of worth (after all they were obtained from achievement chests n stuff so way to give us a worthless reward))

I am not going to support any suggestion to break the law by proposing that ANet tries to screw their players by not giving them the goods they paid for after taking their money.

They did give you the item that you paid for, and now it is time for them to take it away, which I am pretty sure they can do legally because everything in the game is still their property and they can do with it as they want (pretty sure it says something along those lines in the ToS)

One of the things I believe is missing from this rather inflated and very long thread is that this MAY have been an attempt for ANet to ensure that sprockets would remain available for the future. The “basic” node kit also contains a sprocket generator in addition to the crystals for celestial crafting. They will not take these items away though I suppose they could return them to standard infinite harvesting tools.

As far as paying the cost back, I get about 60 sprockets a day from the pick, pretty close to a gold at today’s inflated sprocket prices. Not only will this pick pay for itself, it will likely pay for 2-3 of the other infinite harvesters I bought previously within a year.

I do not say this as troll bait or to start an argument as there is a very clear line between those angry about it and those that brag, which I am honestly not trying to do. I am just suggesting that this is, indeed, an item from the gem store that will return its’ cost of acquisition.

the fallacy everyone is falling into is that somehow you bought the pickaxe only for sprockets, and hence are comparing the price of 1000 gems to the price of 50000 sprockets

DarkSpirit.7046:

Malediktus.9250:

Obtena.7952:

dAcIaW.5107:

still waiting i guess

Me too. At 50c, P2win with sprockets is going to take a long time.

Guess what, they are 1s 30c already

Guess what, at the cost 1000 gems, I can already afford to buy 5000+ sprockets instead of buying the pick. How many years do you think it would take for you to mine 5000+ sprockets with the pick to break even? You failed elementary school math when what you call as P2W is actually P2L.

@Gene: What Arenanet did is legal and it is good for the gaming community to get better items from their gem store at the same price. Trying to restrict that is to force them to sell old crappy stuff in their gem store so that you can maintain some perceived advantage for yourself. It has a selfish purpose and it is bad for everyone else so why should we support that?

Guess what you get these sprockets in addition to the older permanent pickaxes, which also costed 1k gems. Your argument is worthless.

Pie Flavor.1647:

the fallacy everyone is falling into is that somehow you bought the pickaxe only for sprockets, and hence are comparing the price of 1000 gems to the price of 50000 sprockets

That’s why I bought it … I already had infinite picks. If you bought it for sprockets AND infinite picks, the price is comparable to the price of the sprockets + the price of finite picks. Either way, the gem to cost comparison is still very similar.

Funny that no one QQ’s about the ‘p2w’ for infinite picks.

BTW, all the criers can thank me and everyone else that bought this pick from keeping sprocket prices from going through the roof.

Obtena.7952:

Pie Flavor.1647:

the fallacy everyone is falling into is that somehow you bought the pickaxe only for sprockets, and hence are comparing the price of 1000 gems to the price of 50000 sprockets

That’s why I bought it … I already had infinite picks. If you bought it for sprockets AND infinite picks, the price is comparable to the price of the sprockets + the price of finite picks. Either way, the gem to cost comparison is still very similar.

Funny that no one QQ’s about the ‘p2w’ for infinite picks.

BTW, all the criers can thank me and everyone else that bought this pick from keeping sprocket prices from going through the roof.

well, I AM

DarkSpirit.7046:

dAcIaW.5107:

DarkSpirit.7046:

dAcIaW.5107:

lol refund? Na just remove them. (Ya i know they would for this because people spent real money on them but they never compensated people for removing their fractal levels or when removing glory converting the glory boosters into something of worth (after all they were obtained from achievement chests n stuff so way to give us a worthless reward))

I am not going to support any suggestion to break the law by proposing that ANet tries to screw their players by not giving them the goods they paid for after taking their money.

They did give you the item that you paid for, and now it is time for them to take it away, which I am pretty sure they can do legally because everything in the game is still their property and they can do with it as they want (pretty sure it says something along those lines in the ToS)

So after paying full price for your car, they take it back after you have driven it for a day is legal? That is ridiculous! Just because you overpaid for your convenience doesn’t mean everyone now has to be screwed because you are angry and jealous.

As for the old picks, you paid for it as they were. They didn’t gain or lose any functions so those transactions were legal. There is nothing that says ArenaNet cannot sell them for a cheaper price or even improve on their functions at the same price later to benefit everyone else.

I agree it is pretty crazy but yes they can just take away the car, here is a quote from the terms of service you have agreed too. “The Items, services or access to other specific forms of Content offered by NCSOFT in exchange for Gems may be discontinued, modified or removed from the Account by NCSOFT at any time in its sole and absolute discretion. " The above quote can be found here

well thanks for the fun, i was a bit bored this weekend and it was fun trolling on here, now back on topic, Anet explain yourselves!.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Kruhljak.2705:

DarkSpirit.7046:

Or better yet, actually introduce something in their gem store that is mathematically proven to be worth buying FOR ONCE!

Hehe, but all infinite gathering tools are mathematically proven to be worth buying. It’s just a question of whether you believe you’ll be playing (and gathering) long enough for it to pay off.

That is total BS. None of the infinite gathering tools are mathematically proven to be worth buying, quite the opposite. These people simply failed their elementary school math. They will take so many years to break even that most of them probably wouldn’t even be playing this game by then, much less mining consistently every day between then and now to break even.

Two things.

You have an issue with the facts behind how math works. Infinite tools cost X in-game gold. Those tools can, eventually, mine enough goods that after being sold, will turn a profit beyond the initial cost. Assuming no major changes to in-game economy or mechanics that would render it impossible. If you wish to continue to refute this simple fact, go right ahead.

The other item is that you are conflating the two common meanings of worth. You brought up the math in the context of worth so it would be assumed you’re talking about raw numbers. But then you qualify your statement of fact that they are not worth the price by assuming no one would ever use one long enough to return the profit. Which is a matter of pure speculation which is essentially the same as opinion…the other context of “worth.”

I spent in-game gold to buy my set of infinite tools because the convenience is worth it to me. My opinion. Your opinion differs, but it isn’t fact either way.

In either context your vigorous remarks are easily dismissed.

DarkSpirit.7046:

I am not even going to mention karma and the option to buy cheaper picks for mining the lesser ores.

No need. Infinite mining picks are convenience items. The high price, to me, is trivial against the total lack of concern about having to run around refilling tools or swapping them in an out to save a few copper per node. So, don’t bother mentioning such things, since I have no doubt the vast majority of people that bought these things did so for convenience and didn’t give eventual profit a second thought.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Kruhljak.2705:

Having said that, gem store items need to stay very close to purely cosmetic to avoid long term, potentially undesirable, ripples in the game economy. I’d wager most of the people that have bought infinite gathering items will never see any major payoff in terms of in-game profits. Instead, they’ll just get major payoffs in terms of convenience, which is the point. In which case, these items are working as intended.

Then they are paying too much for too little convenience as most of them do not even realize that WvW merchants also sell gathering tools and you can enter WvW where ever you are.

Irrelevant. Whether the price is high or not, the value of convenience is not set by you except for yourself and is entirely a matter of opinion. Perhaps you’re just cheap or poor in-game, I wouldn’t know. Perhaps you have some deep-seated reason not to pay for convenience items. Go ahead and run around doing all the things I never have to do again. I don’t mind. But take care telling others what the cost of convenience is as you have nothing but your own opinion on those matters, and there’s a well-known saying that covers that topic.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Besides, this thread is all about claiming that the watchwork pick is P2W because it returns more gold, in the form of sprockets, than you put into buying the pick itself. This is totally BS.

Sorry if I inadvertently derailed your thread, but I didn’t say a word about this new pick being P2W (or otherwise, for that matter). FYI, I don’t think this item is P2W. While others may think differently, as long as I can convert in-game gold to gems (ignoring ratio creep that makes the conversion highly impractical) and buy literally anything in the gem store, I look at the gem store as nothing more than a very expensive in-game vendor. Of course, there are lines that I’d prefer not be crossed out of concern for the balance between gem store and pure in-game pursuits, but this pick doesn’t cross any of them, in and of itself. Slippery slopes and last straws on camels remain to be seen, but I’m not really a follower of the Chicken Little principle.

Malediktus.9250:

Guess what you get these sprockets in addition to the older permanent pickaxes, which also costed 1k gems. Your argument is worthless.

And how are they even P2W? Why don’t you calculate how much ore you are willing to mine on an average day and see when you would ever break even?

@kurljah: You forgot to take into account that

1. You are not going to mine consistently to the max every single day for the next 5 years or so. There would be time when you are on vacation, time when you are too sick to play, too busy with RL stuff, etc.
2. You did not take into account whether you would even be playing this game by then.
3. You did not take into account karma tools and cheaper tools to mine lower tier ores
4. You did not take into account WvW merchants that also sell gathering tools and you can enter WvW from anywhere else in the map. This means that you are silly enough to overpay for that convenience because you may as well pay back by inconveniencing yourself in return by farming for more gold as a result of overpaying for that small convenience.
5. By putting 1000 gems into investing in such a pick, you miss out on the amount of real investment opportunities to grow your wealth between now and 5 years later.
6. By calling the watchwork mining pick P2W (I am referring to the people who call it P2W), you show that you can’t calculate the amount of gold/gems needed to buy it in the first place which shows that it is more P2L than P2W.

The infinite tools were designed to offer convenience for a price (use 1 pick for everything, never bother with replacing said pick again). Of course anybody with a decent grasp of mathematics knows that buying picks to “win economically” is silly, for the reasons you mentioned.

The Watchwork Pick only raised concerns because it was the very first infinite tool to offer something ABOVE convenience, and it could have marked the beginning of a dangerous trend of gem store power creep that COULD lead to P2W (if players were OK with gradually increasing power levels of gem store items, eventually the items would just keep getting better and better until we would be in a situation where GW2 was P2W for all effective purposes).

I, and many others, expressed alarm and disquiet about this, and it seems that ANet has heeded our feedback and returned to offering only convenience tools, as evidenced by the Thresher. The Watchwork Pick was an experiment; I hope ANet has learned from our feedback and does not offer similar tools again.

Personally (and I say this as someone who bought a Watchwork Pick as well), I would still prefer it if the Sprockets got removed from the Pick, and players who are now dissatisfied with the Pick get their gems refunded to them, but I can live with the current situation as long as the Watchwork Pick never comes back.

I think there is something here that isn’t being recognized. It’s not just convenient and it might be indicative of how Anet does reward players (even though we do have to pay for the item). I’m not making 100g but I am providing the community materials they desire for crafting and being reimbursed for that service. It’s a clever approach and I believe we will see more of such a thing. Anyone that believes this is unfair is being very short sighted.

Obtena.7952:

I think there is something here that isn’t being recognized. It’s not just convenient and it might be indicative of how Anet does reward players (even though we do have to pay for the item). I’m not making 100g but I am providing the community materials they desire for crafting and being reimbursed for that service. It’s a clever approach and I believe we will see more of such a thing. Anyone that believes this is unfair is being very short sighted.

So communal service is funneled through gem store items now?

Zaxares.5419:

The infinite tools were designed to offer convenience for a price (use 1 pick for everything, never bother with replacing said pick again). Of course anybody with a decent grasp of mathematics knows that buying picks to “win economically” is silly, for the reasons you mentioned.

The Watchwork Pick only raised concerns because it was the very first infinite tool to offer something ABOVE convenience, and it could have marked the beginning of a dangerous trend of gem store power creep that COULD lead to P2W (if players were OK with gradually increasing power levels of gem store items, eventually the items would just keep getting better and better until we would be in a situation where GW2 was P2W for all effective purposes).

So overpaying for small conveniences equals to P2W now? That is just not logical. You pay 90g for the ability to skip 1 loading screen, therefore you are winning? Right…

Sprockets may have gone up a little but at the upfront cost of 90g (equivalent to about 5800+ sprockets at today’s prices) just to get some amount of sprockets when you mine, over many years, sounds more like P2L to me because you are obviously making a bad investment in terms of gold. At 20% chance, you need to make about 29,300+ swings just to break even. How many years of consistent mining do you need to get that, considering vacation time, sick time, and RL interruptions? I am not even going to talk about gathering tools that you can buy with karma and buying lower cost gathering tools for lower tier nodes or even lower cost tools you get for free from loot.

If you say, oh it is for my convenience, then each person would value his or her own convenience differently. But at 90g, you do pay a lot upfront for your convenience IMO. Furthermore, how is this P2W at such a steep upfront cost? Where is the “win” portion of this argument? How is this considered winning over those who have not bought any of the infinite tools? Or are you saying that gaining that small convenience, for a huge upfront cost, is equivalent to P2W?

Wanze.8410:

Obtena.7952:

I think there is something here that isn’t being recognized. It’s not just convenient and it might be indicative of how Anet does reward players (even though we do have to pay for the item). I’m not making 100g but I am providing the community materials they desire for crafting and being reimbursed for that service. It’s a clever approach and I believe we will see more of such a thing. Anyone that believes this is unfair is being very short sighted.

So communal service is funneled through gem store items now?

Maybe … I think it’s a valid perspective. Maybe this is a P2W strategy except in this P2W, I’m paying so everyone wins. Anet get’s money, I get gold, players get sprockets. Come to think of it, every time someone buys something from the gemstore, we all win with continued game service. This particular item simply pays back the buyer. Of course, people have to be more open minded to see that but it’s true.

Obtena.7952:

Wanze.8410:

Obtena.7952:

I think there is something here that isn’t being recognized. It’s not just convenient and it might be indicative of how Anet does reward players (even though we do have to pay for the item). I’m not making 100g but I am providing the community materials they desire for crafting and being reimbursed for that service. It’s a clever approach and I believe we will see more of such a thing. Anyone that believes this is unfair is being very short sighted.

So communal service is funneled through gem store items now?

Maybe … I think it’s a valid perspective. Maybe this is a P2W strategy except in this P2W, I’m paying so everyone wins. Anet get’s money, I get gold, players get sprockets. Come to think of it, every time someone buys something from the gemstore, we all win with continued game service. This particular item simply pays back the buyer. Of course, people have to be more open minded to see that but it’s true.

Well, i could argue that i have alot of sprocket that i bought a few weeks ago and wouldnt mind the prize to rise.

Wanze.8410:

Obtena.7952:

Wanze.8410:

Obtena.7952:

I think there is something here that isn’t being recognized. It’s not just convenient and it might be indicative of how Anet does reward players (even though we do have to pay for the item). I’m not making 100g but I am providing the community materials they desire for crafting and being reimbursed for that service. It’s a clever approach and I believe we will see more of such a thing. Anyone that believes this is unfair is being very short sighted.

So communal service is funneled through gem store items now?

Maybe … I think it’s a valid perspective. Maybe this is a P2W strategy except in this P2W, I’m paying so everyone wins. Anet get’s money, I get gold, players get sprockets. Come to think of it, every time someone buys something from the gemstore, we all win with continued game service. This particular item simply pays back the buyer. Of course, people have to be more open minded to see that but it’s true.

Well, i could argue that i have alot of sprocket that i bought a few weeks ago and wouldnt mind the prize to rise.

The price did rise from where it was a few weeks ago. I wouldn’t get upset if sprockets went up either. I’m not really sure where you are going with your argument.

Obtena.7952:

Wanze.8410:

Obtena.7952:

Wanze.8410:

Obtena.7952:

I think there is something here that isn’t being recognized. It’s not just convenient and it might be indicative of how Anet does reward players (even though we do have to pay for the item). I’m not making 100g but I am providing the community materials they desire for crafting and being reimbursed for that service. It’s a clever approach and I believe we will see more of such a thing. Anyone that believes this is unfair is being very short sighted.

So communal service is funneled through gem store items now?

Maybe … I think it’s a valid perspective. Maybe this is a P2W strategy except in this P2W, I’m paying so everyone wins. Anet get’s money, I get gold, players get sprockets. Come to think of it, every time someone buys something from the gemstore, we all win with continued game service. This particular item simply pays back the buyer. Of course, people have to be more open minded to see that but it’s true.

Well, i could argue that i have alot of sprocket that i bought a few weeks ago and wouldnt mind the prize to rise.

The price did rise from where it was a few weeks ago. I wouldn’t get upset if sprockets went up either. I’m not really sure where you are going with your argument.

That you are only serving one part of the community.
And that this thread has gone beyond off topic.

Not every part of the community can be served all the time, but the infinite pick with sprocket bonus serves a significant part of the community and since it’s implemented by the originator of the game, likely to serve the part of the community they want to target inline with the philosophy of the game.

DarkSpirit.7046:

So overpaying for small conveniences equals to P2W now? That is just not logical. You pay 90g for the ability to skip 1 loading screen, therefore you are winning? Right…

It depends on how much you value your time. For someone who is cash rich, but time poor, that skipping 1 loading screen, or the time it takes to buy new picks, or having to run from the BLTC to the Bank and back again, the time saved from not doing those things may indeed be worth 90g to them when added up over the course of a year (and if they just converted an hour’s worth of their pay to gems and bought the tool outright).

DarkSpirit.7046:

Furthermore, how is this P2W at such a steep upfront cost? Where is the “win” portion of this argument? How is this considered winning over those who have not bought any of the infinite tools? Or are you saying that gaining that small convenience, for a huge upfront cost, is equivalent to P2W?

Again, I’m not arguing that paying for convenience is P2W. I’m saying that the Watchwork Pick was a possible move TOWARDS P2W. If the majority of the playerbase were OK with slow power creep of gem store items, then we could have expected future tools, and possibly other items, to also come with their own unique benefits, and who knows where that might lead. Unlimited tools that have an increased chance to give double ore from strikes? A Frequent Gater Discount on waypoints? The ability to teleport instantly to a friend’s location, as we saw from the Kongzhong version of GW2?

Moreover, a large part of P2W lies in the perception of other players. For instance, when the Flamekissed armor was released, many, many players were outraged because of the perception that an expensive, hard to get armor was now easily obtainable for gems. To their minds, it was P2W. It didn’t matter that the armor wasn’t the exact same skin, or that they had the exact same opportunity to get the armor.

And to a point, they are right. A large part of “winning” in MMOs is about having the flashiest, most impressive gear to inspire awe, admiration and jealousy from other players. (If that weren’t true, why are Legendaries so popular? Why did you see so many players running around in Obsidian Armor and Chaos Gloves in GW1?)

Zaxares.5419:

Again, I’m not arguing that paying for convenience is P2W. I’m saying that the Watchwork Pick was a possible move TOWARDS P2W. If the majority of the playerbase were OK with slow power creep of gem store items, then we could have expected future tools, and possibly other items, to also come with their own unique benefits, and who knows where that might lead. Unlimited tools that have an increased chance to give double ore from strikes? A Frequent Gater Discount on waypoints? The ability to teleport instantly to a friend’s location, as we saw from the Kongzhong version of GW2?

Why not? There are just no good items in their gem store. Every day I have to go through their list of items multiple times, wanting to buy something, but ended up finding nothing worth buying. And when I say worth, I really try to find out if an item is worth buying by calculating its value. So far, I have not found a single item that is worth buying in the gem store and the gem store is getting more and more expensive as the gold/gem ratio keeps going up in favor of gems.

If people have to pay more gold for the same gem store item, why not add extra functionalitiies to make them more worthwhile?

Everybody has different ideas on what constitutes a “good purchase” from the gem store. For me, the unlimited tools were well-worth their price, for the time savings I mentioned above. I also fully kitted out all my characters with bag slots, bank slots, and 5 Collection Expanders. I find minipets and town clothes to be utterly useless, yet to some people they are cherished purchases that they value highly. I also see no need to pay exorbitant prices for the limited edition dyes when you’re barely able to tell the difference between them and a cheaper dye unless you look closely. (Doubly so for other players, if they even bother paying attention to you at all.) The “value” of an item is really divorced from what the price is in gems/gold since it’s so subjective to an individual player.

We also have to keep in mind that the ability for players to convert gold to gems is purely a “nice gesture” on ANet’s part. No doubt they’d make a lot more money if no conversion existed and all gems had to be purchased with cash. I’d go as far to say that they value the players who spent real money on gems a LOT more than those who don’t, since at the end of the day, they’re the ones paying the bills. The value of gem store items should always be looked at from a real cash value rather than the gold value, and with a couple of exceptions (such as the individual armor pieces), the price has not shifted since release.

Zaxares.5419:

Everybody has different ideas on what constitutes a “good purchase” from the gem store. For me, the unlimited tools were well-worth their price, for the time savings I mentioned above. I also fully kitted out all my characters with bag slots, bank slots, and 5 Collection Expanders. I find minipets and town clothes to be utterly useless, yet to some people they are cherished purchases that they value highly. I also see no need to pay exorbitant prices for the limited edition dyes when you’re barely able to tell the difference between them and a cheaper dye unless you look closely. (Doubly so for other players, if they even bother paying attention to you at all.) The “value” of an item is really divorced from what the price is in gems/gold since it’s so subjective to an individual player.

Bag slots are not worth it as they only help 1 character. Bank slots perhaps, but if you use your bank slots sparingly you can probably wait for the next sales. Furthermore, I use my personal guild deep cave for non-account bound stuff, saving me gold. Collection Expander? If you need them, it is probably long overdue for you to upgrade your collection items to the next tier in the mystic forge.

Agree that mini-pets and town clothes are utterly useless. They made more sense in GW1 than in GW2 anyway.

We also have to keep in mind that the ability for players to convert gold to gems is purely a “nice gesture” on ANet’s part. No doubt they’d make a lot more money if no conversion existed and all gems had to be purchased with cash. I’d go as far to say that they value the players who spent real money on gems a LOT more than those who don’t, since at the end of the day, they’re the ones paying the bills. The value of gem store items should always be looked at from a real cash value rather than the gold value, and with a couple of exceptions (such as the individual armor pieces), the price has not shifted since release.

The ability to convert gold to gems is not simply a “nice gesture” on ANet’s part. It is part of an auto inflation control system to get rid of excess gold from the economy and because of that the players who buy gems with gold are also important to ANet because these are the players that provide the reason for others to convert real money into gems then gold. Without these players who convert gold to gems, the value of gems would drop and there would be less incentive for others to buy gems with real money so as to convert them to gold.

Furthermore, allowing players to convert their gold to gems allow people who are more cash-strapped in real life to also buy gem store items, raising the gem-gold exchange rate in favor of gems. Which in turn, fuel the incentive for cash-rich players to convert real money to gems then gold when the exchange rate goes up in favor of gems. So as you can see, players who buy gems with gold do play an important part in this equation.

In summary, people who buy gems with gold are important to maintaining the economy because:

1. Inflation control – They balance out the inflationary effect of cash-rich players who bought gems with real money for the purpose of exchanging them for gold.

2. Increases demand for gems to cash-rich players who buy gems with real money – They do this by increasing the exchange rate of gems to gold in favor of gems.

3. Allow cash-poor players to also participate in the gem store which is good for the game.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Bag slots are not worth it as they only help 1 character. Bank slots perhaps, but if you use your bank slots sparingly you can probably wait for the next sales. Furthermore, I use my personal guild deep cave for non-account bound stuff, saving me gold. Collection Expander? If you need them, it is probably long overdue for you to upgrade your collection items to the next tier in the mystic forge.

I’m already maxed out on Guilds, so I can’t create a personal Guild for myself. Besides, I’d find it annoying to have to use multiple guild banks. I’d rather just keep everything in my own personal bank.

I got the Collection Expanders primarily as a way to help stockpile Ingots/Planks etc. for future Ascended Crafting use. Plus, I’m a hoarder. I like seeing big numbers in my bank.

DarkSpirit.7046:

The ability to convert gold to gems is not simply a “nice gesture” on ANet’s part. It is part of an auto inflation control system to get rid of excess gold from the economy and because of that the players who buy gems with gold are also important to ANet because these are the players that provide the reason for others to convert real money into gems then gold. Without these players who convert gold to gems, the value of gems would drop and there would be less incentive for others to buy gems with real money so as to convert them to gold.

Furthermore, allowing players to convert their gold to gems allow people who are more cash-strapped in real life to also buy gem store items, raising the gem-gold exchange rate in favor of gems. Which in turn, fuel the incentive for cash-rich players to convert real money to gems then gold when the exchange rate goes up in favor of gems. So as you can see, players who buy gems with gold do play an important part in this equation.

In summary, people who buy gems with gold are important to maintaining the economy because:

1. Inflation control – They balance out the inflationary effect of cash-rich players who bought gems with real money for the purpose of exchanging them for gold.

2. Increases demand for gems to cash-rich players who buy gems with real money – They do this by increasing the exchange rate of gems to gold in favor of gems.

3. Allow cash-poor players to also participate in the gem store which is good for the game.

Oh, I agree that the current system works very well, but I don’t think the economy would be harmed that much if players couldn’t convert gold to gems. John Smith has never provided us with figures, but I suspect the taxes collected from gem conversion transactions is a drop in the ocean compared with the taxes collected from standard BLTC transactions; there’s simply WAY more of the latter. (I suspect that the vast majority of gems bought with cash are simply spent immediately on the gem store and not converted to gold.) ANet could simply compensate by tacking on an additional 10 – 15% tax paid by the buyer when purchasing items.

Inflation control also presumes that if gold → gems was removed, gems → gold would remain. If it weren’t possible to convert gold → gems, I suspect they would also remove gems → gold, lest it strengthen the impression that one can “P2W”.

The last point, however, I’ll grant in your favour. I’ve always resisted game mechanics which divide players into different classes. I do not really want to see a game where players with cash have access to things that players without cash simply cannot obtain. That’s actually exactly why I do not support power creep in tools or other gem store purchases; it would end up creating different “classes” of players, those who can afford the good stuff, and those that can’t.

Zaxares.5419:

I got the Collection Expanders primarily as a way to help stockpile Ingots/Planks etc. for future Ascended Crafting use. Plus, I’m a hoarder. I like seeing big numbers in my bank.

Since I have 250 free slots from my guild stash, any excess high tier materials are stored there or sold when their price is right. You can always buy them back at a lower price when you need them or place a low buy order at the meantime and you may even make a profit.

Furthermore, the concept of a collection expander is not as worth it if you have already 400-500 crafting levels with maxed level 80 characters. What are you going to do with your lower tier crafting materials, since not all of them can be used for ascended crafting? I would just promote them through the mystic forge or sell them, rather than hoard them above 250.

Oh, I agree that the current system works very well, but I don’t think the economy would be harmed that much if players couldn’t convert gold to gems. John Smith has never provided us with figures, but I suspect the taxes collected from gem conversion transactions is a drop in the ocean compared with the taxes collected from standard BLTC transactions; there’s simply WAY more of the latter.

But without numbers to backup your claim, it is still pure guesswork on your part. Furthermore, the way gem-gold conversions is currently designed, it is like a see-saw balancing out each other. If you remove the conversion from gold to gem, so the rate stays the same, then there is nothing else deterring the conversion from gem to gold which opens up the possibly of some rich players causing uncontrolled inflation to the economy.

(I suspect that the vast majority of gems bought with cash are simply spent immediately on the gem store and not converted to gold.) ANet could simply compensate by tacking on an additional 10 – 15% tax paid by the buyer when purchasing items

Then I must belong to the minority if you are right. Since I have said that there is nothing worth buying in the gem store, guess what I usually do with my gems? That’s right, converting them into gold most of the time.

The last point, however, I’ll grant in your favour. I’ve always resisted game mechanics which divide players into different classes. I do not really want to see a game where players with cash have access to things that players without cash simply cannot obtain. That’s actually exactly why I do not support power creep in tools or other gem store purchases; it would end up creating different “classes” of players, those who can afford the good stuff, and those that can’t.

The way to ensure that the game is not P2W is not by making the gem store items as sucky as always. It is by controlling the game mechanics as ArenaNet has done.

The most powerful items in the game, exceptions being the legendaries which are still very expensive and do not yet include armor and trinkets, can’t be bought no matter how much gold you have. Why do you think they designed it this way?

Making the gem store items sucky would just hurt ArenaNet’s bottom line and in turn, the quality of the game. Gold, in GW2, is way overrated because you can never ever buy all the most powerful items in the game no matter how much gold you have. You can’t even craft them with all the gold alone because you still need vision crystals, so you still have to play enough of the game to get them.

Watchwork sprockets up to 161c

dAcIaW.5107:

Watchwork sprockets up to 161c

Beacause the pick was ninja nerfed to no longer reward sprockets when mining.

I hope y’all enjoy paying 3+ silver per sprocket. Because that’s where this situation is headed.

Edit: I take back some of what I said. The pick still gives sprockets when mining T5 and T6 nodes. However: I received no sprockets when mining platinum nodes ~8 nodes mined, and no sprockets when mining the quartz and candy corn nodes in my home instance. So I still believe the pick was nerfed to some degree. (It used to reward sprockets when mining all nodes)

Double Edit: The pick still rewards sprockets from platinum nodes. It seems that what I experienced was a bizarre bit of bad RNG luck.

?? This warrants further investigation, because I still got Sprockets from mining my quartz/candy corn/other nodes in my Home Instance about 14 hours ago, and there hasn’t been a new build released since.

In any case, I wouldn’t be upset if Sprockets got removed from the Watchwork Pick. I’d rather that all the unlimited tools be the same.

DarkSpirit.7046:

What are you going to do with your lower tier crafting materials, since not all of them can be used for ascended crafting? I would just promote them through the mystic forge or sell them, rather than hoard them above 250.

As I said, I’m a hoarder by nature. It makes me happy to see big numbers in my bank. Back in GW1, I collected 250 of every single crafting material for no other reason than I liked seeing my Materials tab completely full. When I reach the maximum limit for a material, I refine them into ingots/planks etc., then start collecting again. If the refined material is also full, then I sell my excess raw stacks.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Furthermore, the way gem-gold conversions is currently designed, it is like a see-saw balancing out each other. If you remove the conversion from gold to gem, so the rate stays the same, then there is nothing else deterring the conversion from gem to gold which opens up the possibly of some rich players causing uncontrolled inflation to the economy.

Which is why I said in that same post that if gold → gem conversions were removed, the gem → gold conversion would also likely have to go to ensure things stayed in balance.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Since I have said that there is nothing worth buying in the gem store, guess what I usually do with my gems? That’s right, converting them into gold most of the time.

But why do you buy gems in the first place if there’s nothing in the gem store that catches your fancy? Unless you specifically buy gems to convert into gold (which there’s nothing wrong with. I’d do it myself if the exchange rate was just a bit higher. ).

DarkSpirit.7046:

The most powerful items in the game, exceptions being the legendaries which are still very expensive and do not yet include armor and trinkets, can’t be bought no matter how much gold you have. Why do you think they designed it this way?

Remember that originally Ascended gear didn’t exist. Exotics were the highest tier of gear, and they were completely tradable. Even Legendaries had Exotic stats. ANet introduced Ascended gear and made it account bound because a large segment of the player base (what some call the “content locusts”) basically got Exotic gear in a month (or less), said, “Is that it?” and left the game. Ascended gear was an attempt (some say a knee-jerk reaction) to keep these players playing by giving them a new “best gear” to grind for, but locking it behind time-gates and extremely high costs.

The only reason ANet didn’t make Ascended gear tradable is because it would defeat the purpose of why Ascended gear was introduced in the first place, which is a carrot to keep players playing.

Zaxares.5419:

The only reason ANet didn’t make Ascended gear tradable is because it would defeat the purpose of why Ascended gear was introduced in the first place, which is a carrot to keep players playing.

No that is not the only reason. The reason why ANet didn’t make Ascended gear trade-able is because they don’t want the others to call it P2W, since gold has always been obtainable with real money.

Think about it, if ANet solely wants to maximize profit, they would have made them trade-able since more people would be getting gold through the gem store to buy them. Especially those with full time jobs and with lesser time to farm for gold. Or better yet, just sell Ascended items in their own gem store or at least sell the vision crystals.

That is why you guys who call the gem store P2W have no idea what P2W really is about. If they really want to make the gem store to be P2W, it wouldn’t be just a mining pick that gives some sprockets 20% of the time. You would see things in the gem store that would allow you to fly in the real world (like the tools from GW2 hackers), or summoning stones that allow you to summon an army, or consumables that would make you invincible temporarily so that you would have to buy more of it for the effect to last, or mounts with special powers, etc.

You guys obviously don’t know what P2W really is.

DarkSpirit.7046

Think about it, if ANet solely wants to maximize profit, they would have made them trade-able since more people would be getting gold through the gem store to buy them. Especially those with full time jobs and with lesser time to farm for gold. Or better yet, just sell Ascended items in their own gem store or at least sell the vision crystals.

And yet they had no problems with Exotics being tradable. Or Legendaries being tradable. ANet even admitted outright that they didn’t expect players to acquire all-Exotic gear so quickly. Everything points to Ascended gear being time-gated/grindy simply to stop players from completing it too quickly.

The main goal is to KEEP players playing. You need a critical mass of players at any one time otherwise an online game implodes because there’s not enough people around for people to do things with. (A secondary goal being that more players being online also means more eyes on the gem store.)

DarkSpirit.7046

That is why you guys who call the gem store P2W have no idea what P2W really is about. If they really want to make the gem store to be P2W, it wouldn’t be just a mining pick that gives some sprockets 20% of the time. You would see things in the gem store that would allow you to fly in the real world, or summoning stones that allow you to summon an army, or consumables that would make you invincible temporarily so that you would have to buy more of it for the effect to last, or mounts with special powers, etc.

You guys really don’t know what P2W really is.

There’s different levels of P2W, and it depends a lot on what an individual player defines it as. With the exception of the Watchwork Pick, the gem store used to have a standard of only selling items for cosmetics and convenience. As far as I’m concerned, neither is P2W, but it is to some people. The current arguments in the General Forum about how Legendaries should be excluded from the Wardrobe show that many players are upset at the idea of new players getting extra Legendary skins “for free”. P2W does not necessarily have to be purely based on stats or competitive mechanics.

Another example might be if ANet started selling Tomes of Knowledge for 50 gems, allowing a player to simply buy their way to level 80. I wouldn’t consider this as P2W (P2Shortcut, maybe), but I guarantee that lots of players would.

Zaxares.5419:

And yet they had no problems with Exotics being tradable. Or Legendaries being tradable. ANet even admitted outright that they didn’t expect players to acquire all-Exotic gear so quickly. Everything points to Ascended gear being time-gated/grindy simply to stop players from completing it too quickly.

Then you might as well say, they let the level 60 rare armor be trade-able, if that bothers you. News Flash: Exotics are not the most powerful items in the game anymore.

Ascended is also easily gotten if you don’t have a job and you just farm everyday. Not much of a time gate. Oh you can only craft one deldrimor ingot per day, so what? It is trade-able, you can always buy a few of them from the TP.

Their main goal is that you can’t just get ascended items without actually playing the game, no matter how much real money you have to trade for gold. Yes legendary weapons are the exception, but you can never get the best trinkets and armor with just gold, without playing the game.

There’s different levels of P2W, and it depends a lot on what an individual player defines it as. With the exception of the Watchwork Pick, the gem store used to have a standard of only selling items for cosmetics and convenience. As far as I’m concerned, neither is P2W, but it is to some people. The current arguments in the General Forum about how Legendaries should be excluded from the Wardrobe show that many players are upset at the idea of new players getting extra Legendary skins “for free”. P2W does not necessarily have to be purely based on stats or competitive mechanics.

Another example might be if ANet started selling Tomes of Knowledge for 50 gems, allowing a player to simply buy their way to level 80. I wouldn’t consider this as P2W (P2Shortcut, maybe), but I guarantee that lots of players would.

That is why I said, you guys don’t know what P2W really is. What are you “winning” from this that I can’t win over you with my real world money? Sprockets? Really? Big deal! With the price of just 1000 gems ($12.50), I can already buy more sprockets than your pick can produce for you in a whole year!

The only things you can win over someone with real money are the things that can’t be traded. Things like ascended items and vision crystals. These are the things that require you to play the game in order to acquire them. And guess what? These are the things that actually form the most powerful weapons, armor, and trinkets in the game. So how is this game P2W again?

This is why ANet can never allow you to win the game with just gold because anything that can be bought with gold, can be won over without ever playing the game in the first place. Gold has to be the most overrated currency in the game because the best items in the game can’t be bought using only gold. Therefore it is ridiculous that people are throwing the term “P2W” over just some small amount of gold, yes they are a small amount of gold compared to what an average american would earn in the real world. You are making so much noise over chump change that costs less than a cup of coffee.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Their main goal is that you can’t just get ascended items without actually playing the game, no matter how much real money you have to trade for gold. Yes legendary weapons are the exception, but you can never get the best trinkets and armor with just gold, without playing the game.

The point I’m trying to make is that past history shows that ANet obviously don’t have a problem with having BiS gear being purchasable (whether it’s via gold or gems). It’s just that it turns out that a large segment of the player base were content locusts that “reached end-game” faster than ANet had anticipated, and they had to implement a solution to keep them playing. If there was a way for them to make Ascended gear tradable AND still keep these content locusts playing, I’m sure they would do it.

DarkSpirit.7046:

That is why I said, you guys don’t know what P2W really is. What are you “winning” from this that I can’t win over you with my real world money? Sprockets? Really? Big deal! With the price of just 1000 gems ($12.50), I can already buy more sprockets than your pick can produce for you in a whole year!

The only things you can win over someone with real money are the things that can’t be traded. Things like ascended items and vision crystals. These are the things that require you to play the game in order to acquire them. And guess what? These are the things that actually form the most powerful weapons, armor, and trinkets in the game. So how is this game P2W again?

This is why ANet can never allow you to win the game with just gold because anything that can be bought with gold, can be won over without ever playing the game in the first place. Gold has to be the most overrated currency in the game because the best items in the game can’t be bought using only gold. Therefore it is ridiculous that people are throwing the term “P2W” over just some small amount of gold, yes they are a small amount of gold compared to what an average american would earn in the real world. You are making so much noise over chump change that costs less than a cup of coffee.

Are we back to this again? -sigh- I’ve told you before, it’s not about the sprockets, or the price of sprockets. It’s about the precedent of selling something in the gem store that gives a bonus, however slight, over anything a normal player that doesn’t use the gem store can obtain. If players don’t put their foot down, ANet can only conclude that the player base doesn’t mind, or likes, having more powerful stuff on the gem store, and thus start putting ever more powerful items up for sale. (It’s like the non-stop parade of Apple products. Each one has to be “better” than the last model, or consumers just won’t upgrade to it.) Eventually this will take us to a point where a new player who’s willing to shell out upfront for gem store goodies will be leagues above a new player who can’t afford the same. (Yes, the wealthy player is out of pocket more, but he’s undeniably “superior” to the poorer player, with all the posturing and social clout that brings.)

You’re also pretty adamant that P2W can only be considered to be true for items that provide strict numerical advantage over another player. Does that mean that if ANet started selling Legendary/Ascended skins (just the skins, not the Ascended stats) on the gem store, you wouldn’t consider that P2W? Do you think that everybody who’s crafted/bought an Ascended item or Legendary for themselves would think that’s it’s not P2W?

Zaxares.5419:

Are we back to this again? -sigh- I’ve told you before, it’s not about the sprockets, or the price of sprockets. It’s about the precedent of selling something in the gem store that gives a bonus, however slight, over anything a normal player that doesn’t use the gem store can obtain. If players don’t put their foot down, ANet can only conclude that the player base doesn’t mind, or likes, having more powerful stuff on the gem store, and thus start putting ever more powerful items up for sale. (It’s like the non-stop parade of Apple products. Each one has to be “better” than the last model, or consumers just won’t upgrade to it.) Eventually this will take us to a point where a new player who’s willing to shell out upfront for gem store goodies will be leagues above a new player who can’t afford the same. (Yes, the wealthy player is out of pocket more, but he’s undeniably “superior” to the poorer player, with all the posturing and social clout that brings.)

Considering that we already have a real money to gold conversion system, it is already too late to put your foot down on something is worth less than even a cup of coffee. If you don’t want such a system to be in place then you are in the wrong game buddy! ArenaNet staff need to earn their keep. You said it yourself, the richer player would start out stronger than the poorer player. This would always be the case, with or without the watchwork pick because it is how the gem conversion works from the first day of release!

The only way the poorer player can catch up is to play more and get items that cannot be traded. And these items that cannot be traded happens to be the strongest items in the game. <sarcasm>Wow! I wonder why they designed it to be that way?</sarcasm>

You’re also pretty adamant that P2W can only be considered to be true for items that provide strict numerical advantage over another player. Does that mean that if ANet started selling Legendary/Ascended skins (just the skins, not the Ascended stats) on the gem store, you wouldn’t consider that P2W? Do you think that everybody who’s crafted/bought an Ascended item or Legendary for themselves would think that’s it’s not P2W?

Sure if you want to consider skins, but skins are more subjective. Does everyone consider the most expensive skin the best skin in the game? Can the best skin in the game be something that you buy or are they something which you have to play the game in order to acquire?

So again, how do we compare that in terms of say, armor? Name the best armor skin in the game which everyone would agree on and we will see if that is buyable or only obtainable through playing. By the way, I hate the ascended skin and wouldn’t buy them even if they sell them in the gem store.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Considering that we already have a real money to gold conversion system, it is already too late to put your foot down on something is worth less than even a cup of coffee. If you don’t want such a system to be in place then you are in the wrong game buddy! ArenaNet staff need to earn their keep. You said it yourself, the richer player would start out stronger than the poorer player. This would always be the case, with or without the watchwork pick because it is how the gem conversion works from the first day of release!

Well, considering ANet backtracked after the Watchwork Pick and left the Thresher and the Frost Wasp tools as cosmetic only, I’d say that our objections were noted and taken on board. They didn’t revert the Watchwork Pick, which is a small disappointment, but I appreciate that it probably wasn’t worth the extra coding hassle for the minor inconvenience of having all the tools be identical if the Watchwork Pick is never coming back.

And you’re only thinking about existing stuff that can be purchased with gold. I gave some examples in a previous post about gem store items we might see had the Watchwork Pick trend continued:

1. Unlimited tools that have a 20% to give double resources per strike.
2. A Frequent Asura Gater token that gives a 25% discount on all waypoint fees.
3. A riding mount that gives a 33% speed boost (your skills are disabled while using it).
4. A device usable once per hour that lets you teleport to a friend’s location.
5. A device that auto-resses you (similar to the Revive Orbs) when you are dead.
6. An unlimited Repair Canister.

Each of these items might be minor individually, but taken altogether they would place such a player in a different “class” from regular players. This is the sort of situation I want to avoid seeing.

DarkSpirit.7046:

Sure if you want to consider skins, but skins are more subjective. Does everyone consider the most expensive skin the best skin in the game? Can the best skin in the game be something that you buy or are they something which you have to play the game in order to acquire?

At the moment, I’d say that the common perception is that the T3 Cultural armors are the “best” skins, despite the fact that they’re only Rare stats. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence that these are also the most expensive skins (with the exception of Ascended armor, in some cases. I think a full Ascended leather set is still cheaper than T3 Cultural.) And again, remember the uproar when the Flamekissed armor skin was originally released, and how quickly ANet backed down about it.

If Legendary armor is ever introduced, I’m willing to bet ALL my gold that it will be considered the “best” skin in the game, even if it’s considered to be aesthetically ugly. People will get it simply to show off their wealth, similar to how you saw dozens of characters with Obsidian armor and Chaos Gloves back in GW1. Even players who might not like the look of Legendary armor may get it anyway just to show that they have “made it”.