Guild Wars 2

Ohoni.6057:

It said you’d want to check it out, not that you’d necessarily like it. They also said that if you don’t like MMOs you’d definitely like GW2.

This just seems really really bizarre.

Like… Of course they’re going to say that people who don’t like MMOs will like GW2. They’re trying to sell copies of the game. Why would somebody selling a game go “nah you won’t like this game its horrible you don’t like the genre just please go, don’t give us your money”.

Ohoni.6057:

You have your own idea of how GW2 works, I have mine

Only ArenaNet controls how Guild Wars 2 works, irregardless of what idea it is you or I have in our heads about how we want it to work. Maybe you just don’t understand what raids were supposed to be, but a good place to start to understand them is from their own words in their introduction blog post: (Link)

I suggest you start using that as your source material, not some video they made almost six years ago. That video is really showing its age as some of the stars of it don’t even work there anymore. (Colin Johanson, Jon Peters)

Only ArenaNet controls how Guild Wars 2 works, irregardless of what idea it is you or I have in our heads about how we want it to work. Maybe you just don’t understand what raids were supposed to be, but a good place to start to understand them is from their own words in their introduction blog post: (Link)

The players control what GW2 should be, and when the developers intend the game to go in a certain direction, but the players don’t agree, they shift direction. I just wish you guys were more interested in compromising on this and working towards a mutually agreeable solution, because the more rigid you insist on being, the more likely you’re going to be shattered entirely.

Ohoni.6057:

Only ArenaNet controls how Guild Wars 2 works, irregardless of what idea it is you or I have in our heads about how we want it to work. Maybe you just don’t understand what raids were supposed to be, but a good place to start to understand them is from their own words in their introduction blog post: (Link)

The players control what GW2 should be, and when the developers intend the game to go in a certain direction, but the players don’t agree, they shift direction. I just wish you guys were more interested in compromising on this and working towards a mutually agreeable solution, because the more rigid you insist on being, the more likely you’re going to be shattered entirely.

Much more likely outcomes are you being disappointed or Anet acceding to your request … by, oh, say 2025.

Ohoni.6057:

I just wish you guys were more interested in compromising on this and working towards a mutually agreeable solution, because the more rigid you insist on being, the more likely you’re going to be shattered entirely.

Pot, meet kettle.

When people try to come to a middle ground with you the response is

“Nope”.

When people try to tell you, you’re idea of easy modes should not be rewarding your response is:

“Im getting my way and Legendary Armor, your ideas are horrible, mine are superior”

So why would anyone work with you when you don’t want to work with anyone who doesn’t agree with you ?

When people try to come to a middle ground with you the response is

“Nope”.

I’m all about the middleground, but so far the only “middlegrounds” proposed are “what if they fix LFG?”-type “solutions” that actually solve zero of the problems raised.

If I were taking the same hard line stance as you guys, then my position would be "NERF the existing raids, so that the ONLY raid in the game is one of equivalent risk to a standard dungeon. That is not the stance I am taking. I have always held the stance that you guys can keep your hard mode raids 100% intact. All I’ve been asking for is an ALTERNATIVE to that, which allows for players to experience the existing raid content in an easier manner, if they want to, and to have a slow but steady progression towards the same rewards. How is that not a fair compromise?

Ohoni.6057:

When people try to come to a middle ground with you the response is

“Nope”.

I’m all about the middleground, but so far the only “middlegrounds” proposed are “what if they fix LFG?”-type “solutions” that actually solve zero of the problems raised.

If I were taking the same hard line stance as you guys, then my position would be "NERF the existing raids, so that the ONLY raid in the game is one of equivalent risk to a standard dungeon. That is not the stance I am taking. I have always held the stance that you guys can keep your hard mode raids 100% intact. All I’ve been asking for is an ALTERNATIVE to that, which allows for players to experience the existing raid content in an easier manner, if they want to, and to have a slow but steady progression towards the same rewards. How is that not a fair compromise?

Except here’s your hard line….

How is that at all a fair compromise ?

Why should something easier, give anywhere near the same rewards let alone progress on something that is ultimately meant to be prestigious.

And please don’t post your hypothetical reward system, i’ve seen it and its bad. No, you shouldnt get fragment insights, no you shouldn’t get achievements, no you shouldnt get any sort of ascended or unique loot, no you shouldn’t get rewarded for easy modes.

If you want a mode to experience the story or to learn (although this has been discussed ad nasuem and it’s clear learning isn’t what you want) then fine. You should not be rewarded for that.

You want rewards, there’s this thing called doing the content. Even if you fail while doing said content you are still being rewarded. Eventually, people (excluding yourself) will succeed and be able to use those shard to gear up, or get unique skins….

I’m willing to deal. We put in an easy mode (no green circles, no orbs on gors, no cannons, no slublings, bandits can stay because lol, and Matthias just looks at you), you just have to live with not ever getting Living Story and no Legendary armor. You can enjoy the raid story and bosses all you like. Or if you want Living Story than easy mode just makes you immune to all damage and you can solo everything.

Edit: Oh can someone link me the page where Ohoni told of his grand ways to get loot and make things easier.

Ohoni.6057:

All I’ve been asking for is an ALTERNATIVE to that, which allows for players to experience the existing raid content in an easier manner, if they want to, and to have a slow but steady progression towards the same rewards. How is that not a fair compromise?

Depending on how they would implement something like this, I probably wouldn’t care. I want more people raiding and excited by it, not less.

The Excitement of Raiding:

• One thing I wouldn’t like to see though is to have the bosses turn into boring slogs because it can and does harm the content doing this. While I have a static group that farms the raid, I also often play with other guilds still progressing or just join pick-up-groups. It’s always really amazing to see how thrilled and happy some people get when they finally kill these bosses.
  
  Maybe you are not the kind of person who plays for these moments and that’s perfectly fine. To assert though that, “They can just not do easy mode, it’s fine” is not actually a true statement and I say this from experience. I’m sure you’re going to flame me for mentioning the dreaded “World of Warcraft,” but for as much as you protest me using it as an example it actually has exactly what you’re asking for: Raids with multiple difficulty modes using the same bosses, mechanics and story but rewarding inferior loot.
  
  Some players who play the easy-mode do not feel compelled to do the harder modes in that game because they have received most of the experience, even if they are more than capable of doing so. The harder mode’s difficulty becomes more negatively reinforced. Wiping to a boss looks exactly the same with similar but more difficult mechanics, especially one you’ve just killed on an easier mode, does not feel worth it anymore to some people. It feels much worse than this boss only existing in this difficulty setting.

Azoqu.8917:

Edit: Oh can someone link me the page where Ohoni told of his grand ways to get loot and make things easier.

Done.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Suggestion-Raid-Difficulty-Settings-Merged/page/14#post6065106

Except here’s your hard line….

How is that at all a fair compromise ?

Because it does NOT:

• Nerf or alter existing raids or their rewards in any way. Anything you could do in or receive from a raid today, you would continue to have available.

• Provide identical rewards between easy and hard mode. Easy mode would offer a reduced amount of rewards, so that if hard mode is achievable for you, it will always be the most efficient way to spend your time.

Either of these things would be on the table if compromise was not the goal. The problem is that you insist only on a compromise in which no one is happy.

One thing I wouldn’t like to see though is to have the bosses turn into boring slogs because it can and does harm the content doing this.

Remember, I would not be in favor of “turning the bosses into” anything. the bosses you fight in hard mode would be left 100% alone, exactly as they are today, do whatever you like with them. Nobody is touching your bosses.

Some players who play the easy-mode do not feel compelled to do the harder modes in that game because they have received most of the experience, even if they are more than capable of doing so.

And there’s nothing wrong with that. If players prefer to play on easy mode, that does not make them in any way worse than those who play it on hard, this is a game, let people play how they want. You have no right to be upset if these players do not want to play hard mode just because you enjoy hard mode. They do not exist to make it easier for you to find a group, they are in the game for their own fun, not yours.

Find like-minded people who truly enjoy difficult content, and team up with them. Stop trying to convert others against their will.

Ohoni.6057:

Except here’s your hard line….

How is that at all a fair compromise ?

Because it does NOT:

• Nerf or alter existing raids or their rewards in any way. Anything you could do in or receive from a raid today, you would continue to have available.

• Provide identical rewards between easy and hard mode. Easy mode would offer a reduced amount of rewards, so that if hard mode is achievable for you, it will always be the most efficient way to spend your time.

Either of these things would be on the table if compromise was not the goal. The problem is that you insist only on a compromise in which no one is happy.

You’re only version of compromise is when you are happy. Anyone else can be told to shove off.

It’s quite hilarious that you bring up compromise but are unwilling to give into not making any progress or getting unique rewards. That’s the exact opposite of compromise.

You’re only version of compromise is when you are happy. Anyone else can be told to shove off.

But I’m not taking ANYTHING from you! You have no justification to complain! It’s like you have a $100 bill, and I say “Can I have a $100 bill too?”
“Mine? No.”
“No, not yours, a new one will be given to me, you can keep yours.”
“Still, no, I like that you don’t have one.”
“Well how about a $20 bill?”
“Nope, I can only be happy if I have this $100 bill and you have nothing.”

I’m sorry, but that is not a reasonable position to hold your ground on.

It’s quite hilarious that you bring up compromise but are unwilling to give into not making any progress or getting unique rewards. That’s the exact opposite of compromise.

Ok, fine. If we’re going to abandon compromise then we’ll abandon compromise. No easy mode, just nerf the one and only form of raiding into being easy mode, problem solved, no compromise necessary.

Ohoni.6057:

You’re only version of compromise is when you are happy. Anyone else can be told to shove off.

But I’m not taking ANYTHING from you! You have no justification to complain! It’s like you have a $100 bill, and I say “Can I have a $100 bill too?”
“Mine? No.”
“No, not yours, a new one will be given to me, you can keep yours.”
“Still, no, I like that you don’t have one.”
“Well how about a $20 bill?”
“Nope, I can only be happy if I have this $100 bill and you have nothing.”

I’m sorry, but that is not a reasonable position to hold your ground on.

It’s quite hilarious that you bring up compromise but are unwilling to give into not making any progress or getting unique rewards. That’s the exact opposite of compromise.

Ok, fine. If we’re going to abandon compromise then we’ll abandon compromise. No easy mode, just nerf the one and only form of raiding into being easy mode, problem solved, no compromise necessary.

I too like hyperbole that misses the point.

If you get an easy mode….something has to go. Pretty straight foward form of compromise. Yes ?

So explain why you should get anything unique, let alone progress toward something that is a symbol of prestige and hard work ?

I know you can’t because frankly, your whole position is that of greed. You want the rewards without putting in the time or effort. Which frankly is why you are in no position to talk about compromise.

If you get an easy mode….something has to go. Pretty straight foward form of compromise. Yes ?

Yes, the thing that has to go is that easy mode would be the ONLY mode.

We get an easy mode that offers reduced rewards, that IS the compromise position. I feel like I’m fighting Congress here.

So explain why you should get anything unique, let alone progress toward something that is a symbol of prestige and hard work ?

I’m not asking for anything unique, I’m asking for access to the rewards that are currently locked behind raids. Now I’m open to the idea of easy mode not containing those things, but then they would have to be made available through some other content of easy-mode-equivalent difficulty, and I don’t see the point of that when the simplest solution is to just tie them into the easy mode content.

I know you can’t because frankly, your whole position is that of greed. You want the rewards without putting in the time or effort. Which frankly is why you are in no position to talk about compromise.

Again, I am willing to put in MORE time and effort, that’s what “you get less reward per run” means, I just have no interest in putting in that time and effort +in+_ the current hard mode raids. What part of “I’m willing to spend 6+ months working at easy mode raids to earn what you could earn in ~2 months of hard mode raids” do you translate to “not being able to put in time and effort?”

Ohoni.6057:

“not being able to put in time and effort?”

Not “not being able”. It’s “not willing”.

You could go and do hard modes and get the gear. But you don’t want to because you want an easy path.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, the thing that has to go is that easy mode would be the ONLY mode.

We get an easy mode that offers reduced rewards, that IS the compromise position. I feel like I’m fighting Congress here.

I’m not asking for anything unique, I’m asking for access to the rewards that are currently locked behind raids. Now I’m open to the idea of easy mode not containing those things, but then they would have to be made available through some other content of easy-mode-equivalent difficulty, and I don’t see the point of that when the simplest solution is to just tie them into the easy mode content.

Here we go again with the unwillingness to compromise.

You want, you want, you want….But unwilling to accept that your wants come at a cost, that being rewards.

Sorry to say, what you’re preaching yet again isn’t compromise. It’s greed.

Not “not being able”. It’s “not willing”.

You could go and do hard modes and get the gear. But you don’t want to because you want an easy path.

I don’t want to because I wouldn’t enjoy it, simple as that. It’s a game, the purpose is to entertain. If you’re entertained by the current raids, then that’s great, and I truly don’t want to take that away from you, but I am not and never will. But I would be entertained by raids of the type I described, whether you would be or not. So I’m asking for access to the type of raid I would enjoy, regardless of your feelings on the matter, while you would still have access to the raids you enjoy.

Why is this such a revolutionary concept?

You want, you want, you want….But unwilling to accept that your wants come at a cost, that being rewards.

They don’t come with a cost. You’ve arbitrarily decided that they should come with a cost when there’s no reason for them to. The “cost” is that you get less rewards per raid, that it takes LONGER to acquire the good stuff. That is all the cost that is necessary. There is absolutely no reason to remove the rewards entirely, any more than there would be reason to just offer the rewards and none of the content. You can have both.

Sorry to say, what you’re preaching yet again isn’t compromise. It’s greed.

I’m the one offering a deal in which we both get what we want, you’re the one insisting that only you should get what you want. If it’s greed, it’s not coming from my side.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t want to because I wouldn’t enjoy it, simple as that.

Well then you shouldn’t get the rewards for participating in that content. If you want content you enjoy, maybe play that instead and get the rewards for that.

Ohoni.6057:

Why is this such a revolutionary concept?

On the contrary, it’s nothing new. We’ve been speaking about it for about 30 pages over three threads. You keep ignoring counterarguments and not considering alternatives.

Ohoni.6057:

You want, you want, you want….But unwilling to accept that your wants come at a cost, that being rewards.

They don’t come with a cost. You’ve arbitrarily decided that they should come with a cost when there’s no reason for them to. The “cost” is that you get less rewards per raid, that it takes LONGER to acquire the good stuff. That is all the cost that is necessary. There is absolutely no reason to remove the rewards entirely, any more than there would be reason to just offer the rewards and none of the content. You can have both.

I’m the one offering a deal in which we both get what we want, you’re the one insisting that only you should get what you want. If it’s greed, it’s not coming from my side.

The bold = Greed.

Doesn’t need to be any clearer than that. You want both, you should know better than that. At no point is anet or any game company worth half their salt going to make the same mistake another AAA game studio did and hand out rewards just for showing up.

The newer Legendaries are supposed to showcase your dedication to a mode of play. You don’t get the PvP backpiece by being on the forums, you dont get the fractal backpiece by being in WvW, you don’t get legendary armor by PvP’ing. You get them by playing the modes that award them.

If you sincerely think any form of an easy mode will come with “progress toward legendaries” you’re in denial.

What you want here is beyond silly. A new mode that caters to your “idea” of the minimum requirement of effort needed for the Armor. Here’s a very small hint….Anet has already gone over the requirements, they said go play the raid.

+1 Texzero. I Just don’t understand greedy people. I love the pvp legendary backpiece, but i hate pvp. Still, i’m not asking for an easy pvp mode where i could earn it. I Just know there are things in this game that i will never have and i deal with it, that’s all…

TexZero.7910:

Except here’s your hard line….

How is that at all a fair compromise ?

Because it’s taking nothing from you.

At this moment, you do not only want something for yourself, you want also to deny something to us. That’s where the difference is.

Our position, in which we want something for ourself but do not want to deny anything to you is already a compromise, but for some reason it seems that for you a “hardstance” is asking you to compromise on anything, while a “compromise” is getting things you want anyway.

If compromise is really something you can’t live with, however, then ok, have it your way. Let’s burn raids to the ground and salt the earth. Nobody will get access to that content and lore, nobody will get access to the rewards, noone will get legendary armor. That would remove this problem too. And would free the developers to put out the fires elsewhere (and we already know Anet needs developers working on other projects really bad).
I’d hate to have it be solved that way, because (unlike you) i don’t take my enjoyment from others not getting what they want, but the “no compromise” stance really leaves no other option.

Hypairion.9210:

+1 Texzero. I Just don’t understand greedy people. I love the pvp legendary backpiece, but i hate pvp. Still, i’m not asking for an easy pvp mode where i could earn it.

Perhaps because you have it already. You don’t really need to be good in pvp to get it at all.

Well then you shouldn’t get the rewards for participating in that content. If you want content you enjoy, maybe play that instead and get the rewards for that.

Why?

You keep making statement like this as if it’s self-evident, but the rewards attached to specific content are only so because ANet decided it, and if ANet decides otherwise, then that changes, simple as that.

It’s perfectly reasonable for people to be interested in a certain reward, but have no interest in the content to which it is attached, or to be interested in content but not the specific rewards attached. What is the benefit in making people choose? Why should a player be forced into content that they do not enjoy just to get a reward that they want, or to forever deny them that item if they don’t want to do that content? Who benefits?

So no, I flat out reject that concept as tautological nonsense. The rewards CAN be attached to other methods, and so they SHOULD be, because it results in the greatest happiness for the greatest number.

On the contrary, it’s nothing new. We’ve been speaking about it for about 30 pages over three threads. You keep ignoring counterarguments and not considering alternatives.

That being the case, why do you keep arguing as if you don’t know the answers to your questions?

The bold = Greed.

No, the greed would be “I deserve these rewards because I raid, while you do not because you don’t.”

At no point is anet or any game company worth half their salt going to make the same mistake another AAA game studio did and hand out rewards just for showing up.

Are you referring to the makers of the most successful MMO of all time?

That mistake?

God forbid anyone repeat that.

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

Except here’s your hard line….

How is that at all a fair compromise ?

Because it’s taking nothing from you.

At this moment, you do not only want something for yourself, you want also to deny something to us. That’s where the difference is.

Our position, in which we want something for ourself but do not want to deny anything to you is already a compromise, but for some reason it seems that for you a “hardstance” is asking you to compromise on anything, while a “compromise” is getting things you want anyway.

If compromise is really something you can’t live with, however, then ok, have it your way. Let’s burn raids to the ground and salt the earth. Nobody will get access to that content and lore, nobody will get access to the rewards, noone will get legendary armor. That would remove this problem too. And would free the developers to put out the fires elsewhere (and we already know Anet needs developers working on other projects really bad).

Except it is.

It’s taking away the unique reward factor. The reason that keeps people returning to said content.

It’s also taking people out of said content, because why on gods green earth would you do the current raids, when you could just do the easy ones and still be rewarded on an equal if not better use of your time.

But you know…keep being dismissive of this, when its painfully clear that both you and ohoni just want the legendary armor without actually putting in the same effort as those that are currently going through it.

As per the whole story, boo hoo cry me a river. It’s on youtube, go watch it.

TexZero.7910:

It’s taking away the unique reward factor. The reason that keeps people returning to said content.

Nope. Rewards indeed make people keep returning to the content, but those do not need to be unique rewards. Just good ones. In fact, uniques as a primary motivation usually make people stop doing the content as soon as they get them. Because after you got them, there’s no more reason to return at all.

The dungeons have shown it beyond all doubt. Introducing the pvp dungeon reward tracks (and thus removing dungeon skin exclusivity) did not affect dungeon popularity in the slightest. It took a liquid gold reward nerf to do that.

TexZero.7910:

It’s also taking people out of said content, because why on gods green earth would you do the current raids, when you could just do the easy ones and still be rewarded on an equal if not better use of your time.

Perhaps because in that situation hard mode would offer better (in quantity, if not quality) rewards.

But then, you already knew the answer to your questions, because you have asked them (and been answered) several times already.

TexZero.7910:

It’s also taking people out of said content, because why on gods green earth would you do the current raids, when you could just do the easy ones and still be rewarded on an equal if not better use of your time.

Now he is going to say that the rewards will be “balanced” (they love this word!) so it’s not more worth doing the easy mode raid. The funniest part is that he thinks “wipes” and all the training and struggling up to managing to defeat the boss, shouldn’t be included in the “calculations” for this reward balancing. Which makes the point of having balanced rewards completely worthless.

Top ya:

Perhaps because in that situation hard mode would offer better (in quantity, if not quality) rewards.

Still laughing

Astralporing.1957:

At this moment, you do not only want something for yourself, you want also to deny something to us. That’s where the difference is.

Our position, in which we want something for ourself but do not want to deny anything to you is already a compromise, but for some reason it seems that for you a “hardstance” is asking you to compromise on anything, while a “compromise” is getting things you want anyway.

This is untrue. An easy mode which is, aside from tuning, mirrored from hard mode, and provides the same rewards, does detract from the hard modes.

Firstly, there’s the obvious point that while an easy mode may be a negligible amount of effort from an outsider’s point of view (I’m skeptical that it is, and I’m inclined to take any estimates from ANet at face value), it still does move developers away from other content and to raids. Raiders don’t exclusively enjoy raids; they’re not automatons who only enjoy that form of content. If they were raiders and exclusively raiders, then GW2 is, plainly, not the game for them.

Secondly, it does reduce the pool of players willing to enter hard mode. It does create fractures between community groups as ‘easy’ and ‘hard’ modes solidify. I’ve said before that a big issue with the reward structure of dual moding is that once this content becomes ‘old’, the difficulty divide means that one mode gets ignored when this wouldn’t happen with a single mode. It doesn’t actually solve any issue, any better than other solutions would, like STIHL’s suggested solo-mode story mode. And I asked you about this before, about a single raid that’s specifically tuned at a lower difficulty than the current raids, and I think you didn’t mind that idea though I’d have to double check. That’s a compromise in particular that I don’t think is a bad idea- But I’m speaking of myself, and not necessarily Tex who you were quoting, so forgive me if I missed the specificity.

Thirdly, it enables a development direction that neglects the rest of the game in favor of the raids. If you ask for raid modes that cover every difficulty, don’t be surprised if all you start seeing in future releases is raids. I’ve been saying this all through the thread; if you want to see what kind of impact on content development multi-modal raiding has, go look at WoW.

And there’s the whole “progression is doing the fight on easy mode, then on hard mode”, which really detracts from how fun the raids are.

Astralporing.1957:

If compromise is really something you can’t live with, however, then ok, have it your way. Let’s burn raids to the ground and salt the earth. Nobody will get access to that content and lore, nobody will get access to the rewards, noone will get legendary armor. That would remove this problem too. And would free the developers to put out the fires elsewhere (and we already know Anet needs developers working on other projects really bad).

By all impressions, there’s really no need to do that. Raids have exceeded reasonable expectations.

Astralporing.1957:

Perhaps because you have it already. You don’t really need to be good in pvp to get it at all.

The precedents are kind of worrying, that people want to come onto the forums and make posts asking for content direction changes not because they feel there’s a problem with the content, but because they want the sweet purps.

Ohoni.6057:

Why?

Because it’s a pretty straightforward response to someone who wants rewards but doesn’t want to earn them.

Ohoni.6057:

That being the case, why do you keep arguing as if you don’t know the answers to your questions?

I’ve already told you that it’s fun.

Sarrs.4831:

Astralporing.1957:

At this moment, you do not only want something for yourself, you want also to deny something to us. That’s where the difference is.

Our position, in which we want something for ourself but do not want to deny anything to you is already a compromise, but for some reason it seems that for you a “hardstance” is asking you to compromise on anything, while a “compromise” is getting things you want anyway.

This is untrue. An easy mode which is, aside from tuning, mirrored from hard mode, and provides the same rewards, does detract from the hard modes.

Ah, but easy mode is what Ohoni is after. I mainly dislike gating rewards (and specifically a gear tier) behind a content that, by design, only a small number of people is ever going to finish.

For me, any alternate way to get them that would not be so restrictive would do.

Which, again, you already know because we had a conversation pretty much like this one before.

Edit:

Ohoni.6057:

Ohoni.6057:

That being the case, why do you keep arguing as if you don’t know the answers to your questions?

I’ve already told you that it’s fun.

Ah, yes, of course. Should have figured out you are just trolling.

Astralporing.1957:

Ah, but easy mode is what Ohoni is after. I mainly dislike gating rewards (and specifically a gear tier) behind a content that, by design, only a small number of people is ever going to finish.

For me, any alternate way to get them that would not be so restrictive would do.

Yeah fair enough. I’m not sure if I agree with “only a small number of people will complete by design”, but I don’t think that’s strictly your point. We’ll see leg armor in other avenues, but that’s no reason to send raids as they are down the river.

Astralporing.1957:

Ah, yes, of course. Should have figured out you are just trolling.

Fun and trolling aren’t the same thing. I do enjoy these threads. They’re good exercise. If the regulars in this thread weren’t having fun, including you, you wouldn’t keep coming back.

Sarrs.4831:

Astralporing.1957:

Ah, but easy mode is what Ohoni is after. I mainly dislike gating rewards (and specifically a gear tier) behind a content that, by design, only a small number of people is ever going to finish.

For me, any alternate way to get them that would not be so restrictive would do.

Yeah fair enough. I’m not sure if I agree with “only a small number of people will complete by design”, but I don’t think that’s strictly your point. We’ll see leg armor in other avenues, but that’s no reason to send raids as they are down the river.

At this moment the chances of seeing a different set anytime soon (meaning in the next few years) are zero. If Anet is unwilling to work on Legendary Weapons they have promised, they definitely won’t work on a legendary armor they haven’t mentioned yet. So, the only choice is to open the Raid one. Or, (if raiders are unwilling to compromise on that, and as you can see in this thread, they generally are) remove it from the game altogether until Anet can make alternates.

Sarrs.4831:

Astralporing.1957:

Ah, yes, of course. Should have figured out you are just trolling.

Fun and trolling aren’t the same thing. I do enjoy these threads. They’re good exercise. If the regulars in this thread weren’t having fun, including you, you wouldn’t keep coming back.

I don’t enjoy arguing, quite the opposite. I keep coming back because i find the topic important, and know that if noone is arguing my case, then i will end unhappy. And the fact that not everyone seem to be arguing in good faith makes the situation even worse.

It’s also taking people out of said content, because why on gods green earth would you do the current raids, when you could just do the easy ones and still be rewarded on an equal if not better use of your time.

If this is true, then why on God’s green earth should raids exist in their current form?

If easy mode raids would cause nobody to want to do hard mode raids, then hard mode raids are not worth making because clearly nobody wants that.

This is untrue. An easy mode which is, aside from tuning, mirrored from hard mode, and provides the same rewards, does detract from the hard modes.

You guys keep saying “same” rewards when we keep saying “less” rewards. You would get MORE rewards for hard mode, so there would be a purely mercenary reason to be there.

Firstly, there’s the obvious point that while an easy mode may be a negligible amount of effort from an outsider’s point of view (I’m skeptical that it is, and I’m inclined to take any estimates from ANet at face value), it still does move developers away from other content and to raids. Raiders don’t exclusively enjoy raids; they’re not automatons who only enjoy that form of content. If they were raiders and exclusively raiders, then GW2 is, plainly, not the game for them.

I will make a bet with you then (and any ANet employees lurking). If I lose, then I will shut up about easy mode raids forever. Here is the bet, I bet that the sort of easy mode raid that I originally outlined would not take any more than 120 man-hours of developer labor to implement per raid wing. That would be three weeks of full days for one developer, one week of labor for three devs, half a week for six, etc. This would not be counting testing time, just the implementation time.

Personally, I believe it would take much less than that, but I’m giving myself a bit of a cushion here. I believe that this amount of time, within the company as whole, is a negligible amount, that most players would never notice that amount of effort removed from other content areas, and the benefit involved would be significant. If it’s more than that, then it might not be worth doing, that time might be better spent, I just don’t believe for a second that it would take more time.

So, if anyone from ANet with direct knowledge of the time it would take to implement something like that comes in and says “no, it would definitely take longer than that,” issue solved. Otherwise, I still think it’s a viable and well worthwhile goal, and these discussions about “oh, it’ll take soooo much away from the rest of the game” are a bit ridiculous.

for the record, my original proposal was here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Suggestion-Raid-Difficulty-Settings-Merged/page/3#post6039486

Secondly, it does reduce the pool of players willing to enter hard mode.

If that’s true, then hard mode raiders never deserved those players in the first place. They do not exist to make it easier for you to find a group, they exist to have their own fun, and if they have more fun in easy mode than hard, that is THEIR choice to make, not yours.

Thirdly, it enables a development direction that neglects the rest of the game in favor of the raids. If you ask for raid modes that cover every difficulty, don’t be surprised if all you start seeing in future releases is raids. I’ve been saying this all through the thread; if you want to see what kind of impact on content development multi-modal raiding has, go look at WoW.

Nobody is asking for tone of different difficulty modes, just two, one that is the current “hard,” and one that is comparable to the rest of the content in the game. Other difficulty modes would be unnecessary, and raising the point is pure straw.

Because it’s a pretty straightforward response to someone who wants rewards but doesn’t want to earn them.

Perhaps, but I do want to earn them, so what does it have to do with anything I’ve said?

I’ve already told you that it’s fun.

So trolling then?

Fun and trolling aren’t the same thing. I do enjoy these threads. They’re good exercise. If the regulars in this thread weren’t having fun, including you, you wouldn’t keep coming back.

I’m acting in good faith to advocate for a change that I believe would be positive for this game. If you are not acting in good faith, deliberately ignoring facts that you understand so that you can re-litigate the point, then that would be trolling, just so you understand that.

Ohoni.6057:

You guys keep saying “same” rewards when we keep saying “less” rewards. You would get MORE rewards for hard mode, so there would be a purely mercenary reason to be there.

50 apples and 5 apples are still both apples.

Ohoni.6057:

I will make a bet with you then (and any ANet employees lurking). If I lose, then I will shut up about easy mode raids forever.

Uh, okay.

Ohoni.6057:

If that’s true, then hard mode raiders never deserved those players in the first place. They do not exist to make it easier for you to find a group, they exist to have their own fun, and if they have more fun in easy mode than hard, that is THEIR choice to make, not yours.

It’s pretty hard to have fun if you can’t find a group. If the entire raiding base is split down the middle, both sets of players are going to have a lot less fun because they’ll be sequestered into different subcommunities making it harder to find a group.

Ohoni.6057:

Nobody is asking for tone of different difficulty modes, just two, one that is the current “hard,” and one that is comparable to the rest of the content in the game. Other difficulty modes would be unnecessary, and raising the point is pure straw.

I’m using the word multi-modal for a reason. Two modes is still multi-modal. I am also skeptical that the entire playerbase would be happy even with two difficulty modes.

Just saying that a presented problem isn’t a problem doesn’t mean it isn’t a problem.

Ohoni.6057:

Perhaps, but I do want to earn them, so what does it have to do with anything I’ve said?

So you’re participating in the raids as they are now, then?

Ohoni.6057:

So trolling then?

I’m acting in good faith to advocate for a change that I believe would be positive for this game. If you are not acting in good faith, deliberately ignoring facts that you understand so that you can re-litigate the point, then that would be trolling, just so you understand that.

If you think I am trolling, show the courage of your convictions and stop feeding me.

Sarrs.4831:

This is untrue. An easy mode which is, aside from tuning, mirrored from hard mode, and provides the same rewards, does detract from the hard modes.

Firstly, there’s the obvious point that while an easy mode may be a negligible amount of effort from an outsider’s point of view (I’m skeptical that it is, and I’m inclined to take any estimates from ANet at face value), it still does move developers away from other content and to raids. Raiders don’t exclusively enjoy raids; they’re not automatons who only enjoy that form of content. If they were raiders and exclusively raiders, then GW2 is, plainly, not the game for them.

Secondly, it does reduce the pool of players willing to enter hard mode. It does create fractures between community groups as ‘easy’ and ‘hard’ modes solidify. I’ve said before that a big issue with the reward structure of dual moding is that once this content becomes ‘old’, the difficulty divide means that one mode gets ignored when this wouldn’t happen with a single mode. It doesn’t actually solve any issue, any better than other solutions would, like STIHL’s suggested solo-mode story mode. And I asked you about this before, about a single raid that’s specifically tuned at a lower difficulty than the current raids, and I think you didn’t mind that idea though I’d have to double check. That’s a compromise in particular that I don’t think is a bad idea- But I’m speaking of myself, and not necessarily Tex who you were quoting, so forgive me if I missed the specificity.

Thirdly, it enables a development direction that neglects the rest of the game in favor of the raids. If you ask for raid modes that cover every difficulty, don’t be surprised if all you start seeing in future releases is raids. I’ve been saying this all through the thread; if you want to see what kind of impact on content development multi-modal raiding has, go look at WoW.

And there’s the whole “progression is doing the fight on easy mode, then on hard mode”, which really detracts from how fun the raids are.

I’ve already told you that it’s fun.

This is pretty much what i’ve been saying since the entire easy mode thing came about.

Sans some petty personal attacks at the select few….

I’d be perfectly fine with a cutscene only mode where in if you want the lore you get a guided camera walkthrough, see the bosses spawn, die and any cinematics that may exist.

But i’m so far against the notion of an easy mode that there is only one way i’d even begin to fathom it’s existence. No Achievements, 1 copper and 1 karma for your time, no unique loot. It’s easy mode, you should not be rewarded for this. However, those who want the easy mode would say “But that’s a waste of time”. Yeah, i’m aware it is, just as you are aware the concept of an easy mode is “a waste of time”. So much so, that rather than listen to Gaile’s advice to stop speculation on how quickly it would be done, you’d rather ignore it and place bets.

50 apples and 5 apples are still both apples.

Yes, and 50 is still well more than 5, and if you said you’d pay me 50 apples to do a hard task, but one that I would be reasonably willing and able to do, or 5 apples to do a much easier task, I’d take the 50 apples. I’d only take the 5 apples if the other task was either beyond my capabilities, or way too unpleasant. If I were the sort to ever choose 5 apples over 50, I wouldn’t then whine that they should never have offered me 5 apples in the first place because I really wanted to do the 50 if only there had been no other options!

It’s pretty hard to have fun if you can’t find a group. If the entire raiding base is split down the middle, both sets of players are going to have a lot less fun because they’ll be sequestered into different subcommunities making it harder to find a group.

But again, if you can’t find a group because there are not nine other people who want to do the thing you want to do, then that is an activity not worth doing. But haven’t you heard? They’re updating the LFG! That would solve your problem WAY more effectively than it would ever solve mine.

If the raid community can’t survive being split into two parts, then it doesn’t have nearly enough players to justify its existence. The Dungeon community is split 24 ways, and it’s barely earning its place.

I’m using the word multi-modal for a reason. Two modes is still multi-modal. I am also skeptical that the entire playerbase would be happy even with two difficulty modes.

I think there would be outliers, certainly, but I think that this one current mode will only ever satisfy a small minority of the players. I think a second mode that would be balanced against the other content of the game should satisfy almost all remaining players, because if they can’t handle the difficulty of the rest of the game then what the hell are they doing in the game in the first place? You can’t please all the people, but I think that with a minimal effort they could please way more people than they currently are, which makes it worth doing. Pleasing the remainder would not be worth the added problems.

Just saying that a presented problem isn’t a problem doesn’t mean it isn’t a problem.

True, but it is the problem being discussed here. The idea of even more additional difficulties is only being raised by people who don’t want an easier mode in the first place, as a justification to make no change at all, rather than by people who actually believe those additional modes would be necessary.

Ohoni.6057:

Perhaps, but I do want to earn them, so what does it have to do with anything I’ve said?

So you’re participating in the raids as they are now, then?

No, but that doesn’t mean that I’m unwilling to earn them, it just means that I’m unwilling to earn them via the existing methods. I’m not asking to be handed them for doing nothing, I’m asking for an alternate method of allowing me to earn them. It’s like with the Ascension, some players hit Legendary in both the first two seasons, and either have it already or are almost there. I only hit Saph the first season and Ruby this, so it’ll probably take me a little into the 4th season before I’ll be able to get the wings, but I can still get it, slowly but surely. Now ideally I wouldn’t have to touch PvP at all, I hate every minute of it, but there is at least an attainable path, options.

I’m willing to earn the Legendary armor, by spending three times as many weeks running raids as anyone running hard mode, not to mention whatever delay between raid launch and when the easy mode is implemented, and that would involve spending as much time or more in the raids as the hardcore raiders would take to earn that same reward. Is it lower challenge? Certainly. But is it still doing work to achieve an objective? Definitely.

If you think I am trolling, show the courage of your convictions and stop feeding me.

. . . says a person who is definitely not a troll.

However, those who want the easy mode would say “But that’s a waste of time”. Yeah, i’m aware it is, just as you are aware the concept of an easy mode is “a waste of time”.

but again, it’s NOT a waste of time. You can argue all you like but no matter how long it may take it wouldn’t be a waste. Even at the absolute maximum, it would inevitably take less time than producing actual new content from scratch, and the result (with FAIR rewards), would be repeatable content that many MORE players could enjoy than the current raids. More players having fun for relatively low amount of work = impossible to be a waste of time.

It’s just something you don’t want to happen.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, and 50 is still well more than 5, and if you said you’d pay me 50 apples to do a hard task, but one that I would be reasonably willing and able to do, or 5 apples to do a much easier task, I’d take the 50 apples. I’d only take the 5 apples if the other task was either beyond my capabilities, or way too unpleasant. If I were the sort to ever choose 5 apples over 50, I wouldn’t then whine that they should never have offered me 5 apples in the first place because I really wanted to do the 50 if only there had been no other options!

Because you are missing the point.

50 apples and 5 apples are still apples. You are not asking for different rewards. You are asking for the same reward at a different rate.

It’s not hard to work out, come on man

Ohoni.6057:

But again, if you can’t find a group because there are not nine other people who want to do the thing you want to do, then that is an activity not worth doing. But haven’t you heard? They’re updating the LFG! That would solve your problem WAY more effectively than it would ever solve mine.

In your opinion, it’s not something worth doing. That’s the kind of thinking that alienated the dungeon community.

Yeah they’re updating the LFG but that doesn’t really have any bearing on the merits of an easy mode. If anything it goes against it.

Ohoni.6057:

If the raid community can’t survive being split into two parts, then it doesn’t have nearly enough players to justify its existence. The Dungeon community is split 24 ways, and it’s barely earning its place.

Raids have exceeded reasonable expectations of the participation rate. There is no reason to draw this conclusion.

Dungeons and fractals are a different kettle of fish. To say otherwise, with the amount of information we’ve already given you, is downright dishonest.

Ohoni.6057:

I think there would be outliers, certainly, but I think that this one current mode will only ever satisfy a small minority of the players.

raids have already exceeded their target participation rates

Ohoni.6057:

I think a second mode that would be balanced against the other content of the game should satisfy almost all remaining players

And satisfying the original group of raiders is not of interest?

Ohoni.6057:

because if they can’t handle the difficulty of the rest of the game then what the hell are they doing in the game in the first place?

if you can’t handle the difficulty of the raids then what the hell are you doing asking for the same rewards lol

Ohoni.6057:

You can’t please all the people

Yes, and there’s no evidence to imply that your approach would please more people.

Ohoni.6057:

but I think that with a minimal effort they could please way more people than they currently are, which makes it worth doing. Pleasing the remainder would not be worth the added problems.

Come on man, Gaile’s already told you off for speculating about how many internal resources it would take to implement the mode. Barking up this tree is a waste of time; if an ANet employee can’t convince you that you don’t know what you’re talking about how could I ever get through to you?

Ohoni.6057:

True, but it is the problem being discussed here. The idea of even more additional difficulties is only being raised by people who don’t want an easier mode in the first place, as a justification to make no change at all, rather than by people who actually believe those additional modes would be necessary.

I’m not unamenable to changes, I’m unamenable to the exact change that you keep pushing and aren’t willing to compromise on. I’ve already said to Astralporing that lower-tuned alternate raids are a good option. I’ve already agreed with STIHL that a solo-mode story mode is a good option. I just don’t think your idea is good, and you think that means that I think that no idea is good.

That doesn’t have any particular bearing on the complaint; that people who come onto the forum to demand content nerfs to receive shinies may just keep coming onto the forum to demand content nerfs to receive shinies.

What if it turns out that the exact targets you’ve suggested in the exact mode you’ve suggested are implemented, yet they still aren’t enough to carry you to your legendary armor? Are we to seriously believe that you won’t keep up your forum presence?

Ohoni.6057:

No, but that doesn’t mean that I’m unwilling to earn them, it just means that I’m unwilling to earn them via the existing methods.

Tomato, tomato.

Ohoni.6057:

. . . says a person who is definitely not a troll.

Dude you’re throwing a pretty serious accusation at me. Trolling’s an actionable offense.

50 apples and 5 apples are still apples. You are not asking for different rewards. You are asking for the same reward at a different rate.

It’s not hard to work out, come on man

No, I’m not asking for a different type of reward, but “same” involves both quality and quantity. Yes, I’m asking for the same quality of rewards, but not the same quantity of them. I believe that this is perfectly fair. Those who want to take on hard mode will get a sufficiently higher amount of reward, while those who do not will get a suitably lesser amount.

Now, if you insist that easy mode raiding cannot ever provide things like Legendary armor advancement, then that is an argument to make, but in that case the legendary armor advancement would have to take place in some other PvE content, completely removed from raiding, and that seems to be like a much more complicated and time consuming process, so if you genuinely are concerned with not wasting ANet’s time on trivial complaints, I think this “they can’t have the same toys I have!” complaint would be the first place to start.

Yeah they’re updating the LFG but that doesn’t really have any bearing on the merits of an easy mode. If anything it goes against it.

Well, my point is, if they update the LFG well, then it should be easy to find nine other people willing to play hard mode raiding with you. If you can’t find nine other people willing to play hard mode raiding with you, then that’s pretty kitten sad, and they obviously shouldn’t have hard mode raids in the first place because not even nine people want to do it.

The point is, other players do not exist solely to serve at the pleasure of Sarrs. They are there to have their own fun. If they want to have fun doing the same things you do, then you can have fun with them. If they want to do something else, then it’s not for you to put barriers in their way so that they have no other option but to play how you want to play. Set them free, if they love hard raids, they’ll return. If they don’t, then they were never hard raids’ to begin with.

Raids have exceeded reasonable expectations of the participation rate. There is no reason to draw this conclusion.

You were the one that said that if they added easy mode it would present an undue burden on finding a group. I was only pointing out that if YOU were right, then that would be evidence that raids were a bad idea in the first place, at least the current difficult ones.

Personally I take no stance on that either way.

raids have already exceeded their target participation rates

If you believe you’re not making that up wholecloth, then at the very least you’re miss-paraphrasing their statements. They said that the participation (immediately after release, mind you), is above the level seen in other MMOs. We have no idea what their target participation was for raids in GW2, nor do we know whether participation rates will fall from their current rate, whatever it might be.

Given that MMO raider rates are typically VERY low relative to the overall population, it is no real surprise that a larger number than that would at least try raids over the first few months. I’m including in that figure, remember, but it would also be reasonable to expect that GW2, a company who is making a game that appeals mostly to casual players, would be wary of any system that did not manage to attract a sufficiently large population over the long term.

if you can’t handle the difficulty of the raids then what the hell are you doing asking for the same rewards lol

Because interest in the rewards has absolutely nothing to do with the content it’s attached to? What kind of question is that?

Yes, and there’s no evidence to imply that your approach would please more people.

Occam’s razor. I think it’s a bit preposterous to attempt to argue that my approach would not end up pleasing more people, even as a devil’s advocate. You’re pushing for a system in which only a small minority of players can participate, while I’m advocating for a system that would allow the overwhelming majority of player to enjoy the content as well, while leaving that small minority’s content intact for them to play. It’s practically impossible for the resulting number of happy players to be fewer than the current amount.

Come on man, Gaile’s already told you off for speculating about how many internal resources it would take to implement the mode.

Gaile herself said that she didn’t know how much time this would take, given that this isn’t her part of the job, and she also hasn’t come back with more exact figures yet, which is telling. I’m going to continue to use a reasonable estimate until better data comes in.

What if it turns out that the exact targets you’ve suggested in the exact mode you’ve suggested are implemented, yet they still aren’t enough to carry you to your legendary armor? Are we to seriously believe that you won’t keep up your forum presence?

If they aren’t enough to carry me to legendary armor then they wouldn’t meet the exact target I’ve been suggesting. I was listening to my guild chat tonight and several of the players were complaining that they had nothing to do because they couldn’t get through even a little of the HoT maps, and couldn’t get past the early HoT story missions. This is the quality of a casual GW2 player. I’ve got map completion (and parts of it several times over) on both Tyria and HoT maps, completed the story chapters, have all but the last mastery unlocked, I’m hardly as incompetent as you make out. Any easy mode that is within the grasp of the majority of players should be relatively easy for me to pull my own weight in a pug. My goal is for it to be easy enough for me to do it that even they can do it with enough practice and a good group to help them along, and with far less set-backs than I am currently having in raids.

Ohoni.6057:

No, but that doesn’t mean that I’m unwilling to earn them, it just means that I’m unwilling to earn them via the existing methods.

Tomato, tomato.

So if a man wants a fancy car, and the car dealer says “that car is $300K. You can get a job as a doctor and buy that car.” Becoming a doctor would take the man several years of schooling, then another several years of working as a doctor to afford a $300K car, say ten in all.

And the man says "I’m not really well suited to being a doctor, I don’t like blood, my hands aren’t all that steady, I’d like to do something else. So he trains to become a plumber, and it only takes six months, but earns him less, so it takes him 29.5 more years of working as a plumber to be able to afford the $300K car, but he does it, he puts in that time.

You would tell that man he hasn’t “earned it,” because he took a different path to get there?

Ohoni.6057:

but again, it’s NOT a waste of time. You can argue all you like but no matter how long it may take it wouldn’t be a waste. Even at the absolute maximum, it would inevitably take less time than producing actual new content from scratch, and the result (with FAIR rewards), would be repeatable content that many MORE players could enjoy than the current raids. More players having fun for relatively low amount of work = impossible to be a waste of time.

It’s just something you don’t want to happen.

We’ve covered this to death….What you think is fair is a joke.

Please come back when you have something that’s even remotely close to this arbitrary term you call “Fair”.

You know what i think is “Fair”….

5s and a “We Raided” Spoon worth 10c.

It will keep you coming back right ?

I bet as soon as they announce a different set of Legendary Armor obtained anywhere else in the game the vast majority of these complaints would be gone.

If not, we can approach those current arguments as being selfish given years of unique content that has not been raged about and yet has done the same thing without an outcry. SAB, Queen’s Jubilee, LS1…

We’ve covered this to death….What you think is fair is a joke.

No, what you think of as fair is a joke, what I think of as fair is fair. Now if I were going to suggest that easy mode reward identical amounts of rewards as hard mode, that would be a joke. Ha ha.

You literally cannot offer your own “compromise” without laughing to yourself over it, that might be a clue that it is a joke.

I bet as soon as they announce a different set of Legendary Armor obtained anywhere else in the game the vast majority of these complaints would be gone.

Nope.

If not, we can approach those current arguments as being selfish given years of unique content that has not been raged about and yet has done the same thing without an outcry. SAB, Queen’s Jubilee, LS1…

Just because you haven’t noticed it, does not mean that this has not been discussed.

Sarrs.4831:

Ohoni.6057:

You guys keep saying “same” rewards when we keep saying “less” rewards. You would get MORE rewards for hard mode, so there would be a purely mercenary reason to be there.

50 apples and 5 apples are still both apples.

Yes. Still, 50 is not 5.

Sarrs.4831:

50 apples and 5 apples are still apples. You are not asking for different rewards. You are asking for the same reward at a different rate.

Yes, obviously. So?

Sarrs.4831:

Ohoni.6057:

If that’s true, then hard mode raiders never deserved those players in the first place. They do not exist to make it easier for you to find a group, they exist to have their own fun, and if they have more fun in easy mode than hard, that is THEIR choice to make, not yours.

If the entire raiding base is split down the middle, both sets of players are going to have a lot less fun because they’ll be sequestered into different subcommunities making it harder to find a group.

I’m pretty sure that the easy mode would have at least as much players doing it as there are players doing raids now. Likely more. And if hard mode after that wouldn’t have enough players to create raid groups… well, it would only mean that there were never enough people truly interested in them to sustain that mode.

Sarrs.4831:

Ohoni.6057:

If the raid community can’t survive being split into two parts, then it doesn’t have nearly enough players to justify its existence. The Dungeon community is split 24 ways, and it’s barely earning its place.

Raids have exceeded reasonable expectations of the participation rate. There is no reason to draw this conclusion.

Then there’s no need to worry about the split.

Sarrs.4831:

Ohoni.6057:

Perhaps, but I do want to earn them, so what does it have to do with anything I’ve said?

So you’re participating in the raids as they are now, then?

“Earning” doesn’t mean “earning, but only this way”

Sykper.6583:

I bet as soon as they announce a different set of Legendary Armor obtained anywhere else in the game the vast majority of these complaints would be gone.

Sure, but that’s not going to happen looking at Anet’s current situation. For any foreseeable future, there will be only one legendary armor set in the game (assuming they will actually make it, which, despite assurances, is still not so certain).

Ohoni.6057:

No, I’m not asking for a different type of reward, but “same” involves both quality and quantity. Yes, I’m asking for the same quality of rewards, but not the same quantity of them. I believe that this is perfectly fair.

It’s been tried before. It didn’t pan out. Sorry. Apples are apples.

Ohoni.6057:

Now, if you insist that easy mode raiding cannot ever provide things like Legendary armor advancement, then that is an argument to make, but in that case the legendary armor advancement would have to take place in some other PvE content, completely removed from raiding, and that seems to be like a much more complicated and time consuming process, so if you genuinely are concerned with not wasting ANet’s time on trivial complaints, I think this “they can’t have the same toys I have!” complaint would be the first place to start.

No, I’m not concerned with wasting ANet’s time.

What I’m concerned about is ANet making correct decisions which take longer to implement rather than incorrect decisions that can be quickly implemented. Time spent making good systems is not time wasted.

Multimodal raiding is not a good system.

Ohoni.6057:

Well, my point is, if they update the LFG well, then it should be easy to find nine other people willing to play hard mode raiding with you. If you can’t find nine other people willing to play hard mode raiding with you, then that’s pretty kitten sad, and they obviously shouldn’t have hard mode raids in the first place because not even nine people want to do it.

Still doesn’t actually have any bearing on the benefits or drawbacks of multimodal raids.

Ohoni.6057:

The point is, other players do not exist solely to serve at the pleasure of Sarrs.

Bro I don’t raid in GW2. I don’t have a horse in this race. I’m not making arguments out of self interest, I’m making them because your idea is bad.

Skipping the rest, conclusion doesn’t follow the premise.

Ohoni.6057:

You were the one that said that if they added easy mode it would present an undue burden on finding a group. I was only pointing out that if YOU were right, then that would be evidence that raids were a bad idea in the first place, at least the current difficult ones.

sing it with me
raids have already hit their target participation rates

Ohoni.6057:

If you believe you’re not making that up wholecloth

Dude if you’re not going to believe ANet then there’s no way you’re going to believe me. For argument’s sake you need to concede things. If you’re just going to throw up the “THEY’RE LYING” card why don’t you just throw it up at me.

Oh wait you did you called me a troll. GEE GEE

Ohoni.6057:

then at the very least you’re miss-paraphrasing their statements. They said that the participation (immediately after release, mind you), is above the level seen in other MMOs. We have no idea what their target participation was for raids in GW2, nor do we know whether participation rates will fall from their current rate, whatever it might be.

It’s not an unreasonable expectation that they would set their targets similar to similar products on the market.

If the audience is not expected to raid then they would have set their expectations lower, so the results are proportionally even higher.

Ohoni.6057:

Because interest in the rewards has absolutely nothing to do with the content it’s attached to? What kind of question is that?

Pretty straightforward question. If you want rewards you do the content that gives you that reward.

Ohoni.6057:

Occam’s razor. I think it’s a bit preposterous to attempt to argue that my approach would not end up pleasing more people, even as a devil’s advocate.

evidence

conclusions can’t be reached without evidence

see the thing is, i have evidence; when easy mode raids were introduced in another game, subscriber rates dropped drastically

Ohoni.6057:

Gaile herself said that she didn’t know how much time this would take

I never said thaaaat. Do a bit better on your misdirection.

Ohoni.6057:

If they aren’t enough to carry me to legendary armor then they wouldn’t meet the exact target I’ve been suggesting.

Granted, you’ve set the target “I should be able to get legendary armor with no effort”. I walked right into that one.

Ohoni.6057:

So if a man wants a fancy car, and the car dealer says “that car is $300K. You can get a job as a doctor and buy that car.” Becoming a doctor would take the man several years of schooling, then another several years of working as a doctor to afford a $300K car, say ten in all.

And the man says "I’m not really well suited to being a doctor, I don’t like blood, my hands aren’t all that steady, I’d like to do something else. So he trains to become a plumber, and it only takes six months, but earns him less, so it takes him 29.5 more years of working as a plumber to be able to afford the $300K car, but he does it, he puts in that time.

You would tell that man he hasn’t “earned it,” because he took a different path to get there?

You can buy runs using gold, a currency you can get from doing anything at all. Swing and a miss.

Astralporing.1957:

Yes. Still, 50 is not 5.

Yes, obviously. So?

The point of this apples analogy is that if you give players two options to earn rewards- one slow and easy, one quick and hard- most of all players will never rise up to the challenge and tackle the hard mode. This is a trend that we can pretty universally plot across all MMOs.

Rewards are used to direct populations and provide incentives to participate in particular content and to encourage people to step out of their box, in multiple avenues. This includes going across game modes. This includes going up difficulty levels. But when you attach rewards behind a difficulty increase and then attach the same rewards behind an easy path, you’re undermining the previous point; the drive and incentive to push into higher difficulties is undermined by the lower difficulty. That’s why you need to not have identical rewards across different difficulties to engage the playerbase.

Astralporing.1957:

I’m pretty sure that the easy mode would have at least as much players doing it as there are players doing raids now. Likely more. And if hard mode after that wouldn’t have enough players to create raid groups… well, it would only mean that there were never enough people truly interested in them to sustain that mode.

How many people are doing easy modes is outside the immediate scope of this question, and having too many people doing raids is bad because it distorts the development process for both those raids and the game as a whole.

The population argument boils down to “if easy mode is implemented, will there be people running hard mode”, and the answer is unequivocably ‘no’ when there is no real incentive, read rewards, to go into higher modes.

Astralporing.1957:

Then there’s no need to worry about the split.

I am frankly not worried about the split because I don’t see ANet making any moves towards multimodal raiding. Like I’ve said before, I’m just here to talk and have fun, and hopefully if I can help you guys refine your ideas or thoughts that’s great too.

Astralporing.1957:

“Earning” doesn’t mean “earning, but only this way”

Sure, but apples only come from apple trees.

It’s been tried before. It didn’t pan out. Sorry. Apples are apples.

So then what alternate method would you accept for PvE players to earn Legendary armors? Because “just hard raids” or equivalent is not an acceptable solution.

What I’m concerned about is ANet making correct decisions which take longer to implement rather than incorrect decisions that can be quickly implemented. Time spent making good systems is not time wasted.

Multimodal raiding is not a good system.

I’m not unamenable to changes, I’m unamenable to the exact change that you keep pushing and aren’t willing to compromise on. I’ve already said to Astralporing that lower-tuned alternate raids are a good option. I’ve already agreed with STIHL that a solo-mode story mode is a good option. I just don’t think your idea is good, and you think that means that I think that no idea is good.

Reconcile these two statements.

You seem to think multi-model raids are fine, just so long as they do not allow the proles access to precious rewards. I didn’t make my suggestion merely because it’s the fastest, but also because it is best. There is no alternative I can think of or that has been proposed so far that would be a superior outcome to the one I suggested for as many parties as possible.

Still doesn’t actually have any bearing on the benefits or drawbacks of multimodal raids.

I hope you don’t mind if I quote you the next time Doc suggests LFG updates as a panacea.

sing it with me
raids have already hit their target participation rates

and again, they’ve made no such claim, so unless you’re aware of non-public data, you can’t back this up.

Dude if you’re not going to believe ANet then there’s no way you’re going to believe me. For argument’s sake you need to concede things. If you’re just going to throw up the “THEY’RE LYING” card why don’t you just throw it up at me.

I’m not accusing ANet of anything. I’m just pointing out that you’re either deliberately or accidentally miss-reporting what they actually said. I believe that they’re being honest when they say that they’re doing better than other MMOs in terms of raiding participation, I just don’t think it necessarily follows that they are satisfied with that outcome.

Oh wait you did you called me a troll. GEE GEE

I didn’t say that you were a troll, I would never accuse someone of being a troll on my own say-so. I just said that your own statements could be taken as an admission of trolling.

It’s not an unreasonable expectation that they would set their targets similar to similar products on the market.

GW2 is a very different game than others on the market with very different goals, it is not unreasonable to expect them to aim for different standards. Personally I would consider standard MMO raid adoption rates to be a failure in any game, but it’s up to Anet to judge for their own.

Pretty straightforward question. If you want rewards you do the content that gives you that reward.

. . .

No, that’s not how it works. If you want the reward then you want the reward, no more than that. It does not follow that you would want to do the content the reward is attached to, that would depend entirely on how that content plays. It’s perfectly reasonable to want a certain reward very much, and have absolutely no interest in the content that rewards it, or vice-versa.

conclusions can’t be reached without evidence

see the thing is, i have evidence; when easy mode raids were introduced in another game, subscriber rates dropped drastically

This isn’t a subscription game. Also, WoW has had LFR since 2009, and subscriptions slowly climbed over the following two years, before slowly sinking over the next three. For a ten year old game, those aren’t bad numbers at all, and they’re still at above right before the first expansion. I am just not seeing any sort of causal link between LFR and any decline in WoW that would not be completely natural for a game its age.

Granted, you’ve set the target “I should be able to get legendary armor with no effort”. I walked right into that one.

And again, I’ve corrected that deliberate misrepresentation too many times for you to claim ignorance.

You can buy runs using gold, a currency you can get from doing anything at all. Swing and a miss.

I’m not talking about buying runs, I’m talking about earning it myself. To return to the plumber example, he doesn’t have to pay a Doctor to walk in and buy the car for him, he earned the money with his own effort, and can buy the car without any help. Lower difficulty over a long period of time is not inferior to higher difficulty over a short period of time. Haven’t you ever heard the story of the tortoise and the hare?

Ohoni.6057:

We’ve covered this to death….What you think is fair is a joke.

No, what you think of as fair is a joke, what I think of as fair is fair. Now if I were going to suggest that easy mode reward identical amounts of rewards as hard mode, that would be a joke. Ha ha.

You literally cannot offer your own “compromise” without laughing to yourself over it, that might be a clue that it is a joke.

Okay then lets try this…..

You get Easy Mode…..
You get 5% of the gold value while not under the mists buff.
You don’t get shards, the unique items, legendary armor collection pieces, nor achievement progress

Satisfied ?

The point of this apples analogy is that if you give players two options to earn rewards- one slow and easy, one quick and hard- most of all players will never rise up to the challenge and tackle the hard mode. This is a trend that we can pretty universally plot across all MMOs.

So what? If that’s how they want to play, that’s how they want to play. LET THEM.

Rewards are used to direct populations and provide incentives to participate in particular content and to encourage people to step out of their box, in multiple avenues.

I’ve discussed this before, maybe you’ve heard it before, maybe not, but I think this is an abuse of rewards. It is fair to use rewards to get players to step outside their comfort zone, it is not fair to use rewards to get players to run a marathon outside their comfort zone.

There is a perfectly valid place for rewards that encourage players to TRY new things, to spend a few hours, tops, engaged in that activity, to judge for themselves whether they could enjoy that activity. Once they have had reasonable time to decide, however, a game should RESPECT their choices, respect their time and interests, and if the player truly does not enjoy that content, they should be free to go without having to abandon a desired reward.

Games should have two types of reward, the “try me” reward, and then the “dedication” reward. The “try me” reward can be exclusive to one specific content in the game, but should be fully earnable in a couple hours or less. Try the new thing, decide whether you like it, get a prize either way. The “dedication” rewards are the ones that take tens of hours or more to earn, like Legendaries, but should be available through multiple paths, to increase the odds that at least one of those paths is something the player will truly enjoy, so that he can pursue the reward AND enjoy the journey. Nobody benefits from a player who is not enjoying the journey, least of all the developer.

So specific to raiding, I don’t mind if there are rewards that are 100% exclusive to raids, but within the context above, they should be rewards that you can earn from a couple hours of raiding, which basically means by reaching phase two of Vale Guardian or something equivalent, not even beating him. That can be an exclusive, that can be used as a draw to new players to make sure they give hard mode a try, but if they truly and honestly decide that hard mode is not for them, you shouldn’t dangle rewards over their head as they leave, there is no benefit to that. The long term rewards can be earned through raids, and can be earned faster there, but that should not be the ONLY place to earn them.

The population argument boils down to “if easy mode is implemented, will there be people running hard mode”, and the answer is unequivocably ‘no’ when there is no real incentive, read rewards, to go into higher modes.

If that is true, then hard mode should not exist, end of story.

Hard mode can only justify its existence if people actually ENJOY doing it, regardless of rewards. Since we’re actually talking about significantly HIGHER rewards for hard more than easy, if people still don’t want to do it, then it has completely failed to justify itself.

Sure, but apples only come from apple trees.

Yet individuals can acquire their own apples from trees, from the ground around trees, from carts, from stores of all shapes and sizes.

You get Easy Mode…..
You get 5% of the gold value while not under the mists buff.
You don’t get shards, the unique items, legendary armor collection pieces, nor achievement progress

Satisfied ?

No, why do you ask? Shouldn’t you know the answer to that already? I mean, would you run the raid under those circumstances?

Ohoni.6057:

So then what alternate method would you accept for PvE players to earn Legendary armors? Because “just hard raids” or equivalent is not an acceptable solution.

Iunno. Fractals? Dungeons? Some new form of content we haven’t seen yet? What if Luminescent armor was a precursor?

Ohoni.6057:

Reconcile these two statements.

There’s nothing to reconcile.

STIHL’s solution is not a raid.
What I brought up to Astralporing was a completely seperate set of raids with different bosses, mechanics, environments and tuning, with one mode.

Ohoni.6057:

You seem to think multi-model raids are fine, just so long as they do not allow the proles access to precious rewards.

The word is modal. Not model. Multimodal as in “it has more than one mode”. Though now that I think about it, having some models in raids would be good. Is Karrueche Tran a model?

Ohoni.6057:

I didn’t make my suggestion merely because it’s the fastest, but also because it is best.

It’s not the best. We’ve seen it before. It don’t work no good.

Ohoni.6057:

There is no alternative I can think of or that has been proposed so far that would be a superior outcome to the one I suggested for as many parties as possible.

STIHL’s solution is better because it evades the problem entirely. The solution I discussed with Astralporing is better because it provides more content as a whole and creates a progression.

Of course you wouldn’t think they’re better because you think it’s the only solution because I don’t know why. If you can only think of one solution to a problem then you shouldn’t be in the business of solving problems.

Ohoni.6057:

I hope you don’t mind if I quote you the next time Doc suggests LFG updates as a panacea.

I always mind when people take my quotes out of context.

Ohoni.6057:

and again, they’ve made no such claim, so unless you’re aware of non-public data, you can’t back this up.

I’m not accusing ANet of anything. I’m just pointing out that you’re either deliberately or accidentally miss-reporting what they actually said. I believe that they’re being honest when they say that they’re doing better than other MMOs in terms of raiding participation, I just don’t think it necessarily follows that they are satisfied with that outcome.

If you can’t see the logical link between the two statements then you’re being purposely obtuse.

I disagree that it does not follow. If I recall correctly, they seemed quite pleased with themselves when they made that announcement. Though it is fair that the long-term retention rates are still out to jury- however, I think we can safely assume that they will remain better than the market average.

Ohoni.6057:

I didn’t say that you were a troll, I would never accuse someone of being a troll on my own say-so. I just said that your own statements could be taken as an admission of trolling.

Look I said I have fun in these threads and you immediately jumped to the conclusion that I was a troll. Come on man.

At the very least, take it as “oh he thinks I’m fun to talk to” and appreciate the compliment.

Ohoni.6057:

GW2 is a very different game than others on the market with very different goals, it is not unreasonable to expect them to aim for different standards. Personally I would consider standard MMO raid adoption rates to be a failure in any game, but it’s up to Anet to judge for their own.

gw2 goals:
make fun game
make cash dolla dolla

But more seriously, if I were ANet and I went into it with the assumptions that you made about the game earlier (that they’re all casuals who hate other mmos and are refugees) I would probably expect a lower participation rate compared to the market. But no, the participation rate is higher.

Ohoni.6057:

No, that’s not how it works. If you want the reward then you want the reward, no more than that. It does not follow that you would want to do the content the reward is attached to, that would depend entirely on how that content plays. It’s perfectly reasonable to want a certain reward very much, and have absolutely no interest in the content that rewards it, or vice-versa.

More specifically, the solution to your desires should never be “hey maybe I should dogmatically pursue a very specific multimodal raid structure without considering alternate positions on the official forums”.

Ohoni.6057:

This isn’t a subscription game. Also, WoW has had LFR since 2009, and subscriptions slowly climbed over the following two years, before slowly sinking over the next three.

LFR is not the only mode I’m speaking about. The implementation of multi-modal raiding, not LFR, was in TotC- that’s when the game’s growth plateaued. Cata early declines were due to revamps to the early game and neglecting the endgame. Stabilized in Firelands, DragonSoul bled because bad raid. Pandaland was gross but people apparently liked it, but it wasn’t because of multimodal raiding; the strongest MoP patch was the one which introduced a broad swathe of content for multiple styles of play (ToT). WoD’s instant decline was due to an overestimation of the value of raid content because at that point they’d given themselves four raids which all required ilvl servicing which invalidated every other avenue of content.

The broad conclusions we can draw from the data-set is that multimodal raids will not make up for the rest of the game being weak. We can see that very clearly from early WoD with the high emphasis on multimodal raids and the massive subscriber drop. We can also see the inverse in ToT with a subscriber rebound. Similarly, for the majority of the game’s growth period which isn’t a data set which should be ignored, they used single-mode raiding until Ulduar; they used variations in group size for side content and direct progression for difficulty.

Ohoni.6057:

For a ten year old game, those aren’t bad numbers at all, and they’re still at above right before the first expansion. I am just not seeing any sort of causal link between LFR and any decline in WoW that would not be completely natural for a game its age.

They stopped posting subscriber numbers specifically because they have moved out of relying on subscriptions as the main mode of supporting the game. The data points which would imply continued sub bleeding have not been published- that’s why your data has hit an end.

You are assuming multimodal raids only go down, when that’s not the case. Also, WoD’s initial release pushing the subscriber count to 10mil is evidence that age is a surmountable factor: If Blizzard builds (and advertises), they will come. They just didn’t have the content ready and arranged in such a fashion to retain those players.

Ohoni.6057:

And again, I’ve corrected that deliberate misrepresentation too many times for you to claim ignorance.

Granted, I am being slightly hyperbolic, my apologies. Still, the point remains; if your exact parameters for the difficulty of the content are met, yet you cannot achieve them, will we be seeing you again asking for a third difficulty, or for nerfs to the new second difficulty?

Ohoni.6057:

I’m not talking about buying runs, I’m talking about earning it myself. To return to the plumber example, he doesn’t have to pay a Doctor to walk in and buy the car for him, he earned the money with his own effort, and can buy the car without any help.

Again, earning. We keep coming back to this word.

You don’t earn raid rewards like you earn money. You earn them like you earn an award. You complete an achievement, you get the reward. You get 90% or higher on the test, you get an A. You do the boss’s mechanics well enough, you get your rewards.

Ohoni.6057:

Lower difficulty over a long period of time is not inferior to higher difficulty over a short period of time. Haven’t you ever heard the story of the tortoise and the hare?

I have. I interpreted it as a story of hubris and of the value of dogged determination. If you are truly determined to earn the raid rewards, perhaps you should begin the long, hard slog to mastering the raids.

Ohoni.6057:

So what? If that’s how they want to play, that’s how they want to play. LET THEM.

Not so simple when developer resources are on the line and when group participation is up for grabs.

Ohoni.6057:

I’ve discussed this before, maybe you’ve heard it before, maybe not, but I think this is an abuse of rewards. It is fair to use rewards to get players to step outside their comfort zone, it is not fair to use rewards to get players to run a marathon outside their comfort zone.

Yeah we’ve had it before and I disagree. You want wings from not PvPing.

Legendaries aren’t those short term rewards. They’re long term rewards. The only valid criticisms of the current model is that you don’t have an alternative to get legendary armor, and some accessory stat-sets are completely unavailable. The core incentives, skins, are inconsequential by design.

Ohoni.6057:

If that is true, then hard mode should not exist, end of story.

Raid participation rates have exceeded their targets.

Ohoni.6057:

Hard mode can only justify its existence if people actually ENJOY doing it, regardless of rewards. Since we’re actually talking about significantly HIGHER rewards for hard more than easy, if people still don’t want to do it, then it has completely failed to justify itself.

Are you implying that raiders don’t enjoy raiding? The specific reason raids were added was because there wasn’t much challenging content and people who wanted that challenge can now chew on raids.

Also your reward model isn’t significantly lower. It’s barely lower. You still get all the important items from your dream ezmode without much trouble.

Ohoni.6057:

Yet individuals can acquire their own apples from trees, from the ground around trees, from carts, from stores of all shapes and sizes.

And you can buy your apples from the raid run seller.

Sarrs.4831:

Astralporing.1957:

Yes. Still, 50 is not 5.

Yes, obviously. So?

The point of this apples analogy is that if you give players two options to earn rewards- one slow and easy, one quick and hard- most of all players will never rise up to the challenge and tackle the hard mode. This is a trend that we can pretty universally plot across all MMOs.

Rewards are used to direct populations and provide incentives to participate in particular content and to encourage people to step out of their box, in multiple avenues. This includes going across game modes. This includes going up difficulty levels. But when you attach rewards behind a difficulty increase and then attach the same rewards behind an easy path, you’re undermining the previous point; the drive and incentive to push into higher difficulties is undermined by the lower difficulty. That’s why you need to not have identical rewards across different difficulties to engage the playerbase.

Look at Fractals. The rewards are the same across all the levels, only droprates are different. Yet still people do the highest tier fractals, even when they are more difficult than level 1-10 ones. Quantity does matter.
(don’t bring swamp up, here we have the problem with quantity being the same for different difficulty, which is not anything anyon argues here for)

Sarrs.4831:

The population argument boils down to “if easy mode is implemented, will there be people running hard mode”, and the answer is unequivocably ‘no’ when there is no real incentive, read rewards, to go into higher modes.

As mentioned before, quantity can be a really good incentive.

Sarrs.4831:

Astralporing.1957:

Then there’s no need to worry about the split.

I am frankly not worried about the split because I don’t see ANet making any moves towards multimodal raiding. Like I’ve said before, I’m just here to talk and have fun, and hopefully if I can help you guys refine your ideas or thoughts that’s great too.

Way to avoid the point completely.
Either after the split there will still be enough hard mode players to sustain it, in which case it’s not an argument, or there won’t be, in which case there wasn’t enough of them to justify the mode in the first place.

Sarrs.4831:

Astralporing.1957:

“Earning” doesn’t mean “earning, but only this way”

Sure, but apples only come from apple trees.

Yes, but the apple tree is not Raid. It’s ANet. Raid is just the box you pick them from – there’s no reason why they can’t also be in a different box.

Astralporing.1957:

The point of this apples analogy is that if you give players two options to earn rewards- one slow and easy, one quick and hard- most of all players will never rise up to the challenge and tackle the hard mode. This is a trend that we can pretty universally plot across all MMOs.

Rewards are used to direct populations and provide incentives to participate in particular content and to encourage people to step out of their box, in multiple avenues. This includes going across game modes. This includes going up difficulty levels. But when you attach rewards behind a difficulty increase and then attach the same rewards behind an easy path, you’re undermining the previous point; the drive and incentive to push into higher difficulties is undermined by the lower difficulty. That’s why you need to not have identical rewards across different difficulties to engage the playerbase.

Look at Fractals. The rewards are the same across all the levels, only droprates are different. Yet still people do the highest tier fractals, even when they are more difficult than level 1-10 ones. Quantity does matter.
(don’t bring swamp up, here we have the problem with quantity being the same for different difficulty, which is not anything anyon argues here for)[/quote]

Completely agree here. Pre-HoT Fractal proved the concept work when you do it right and you can apply it to raid. I would still prefer to not have legendary armor in easy-mode raid as long as they add other legendary armor in other mode like PvP league, WvW, maybe Open World. If they don’t, then I have no problem with adding this legendary armor to easy mode. Just making it longer to do in that mode since it’s easier. For the unique skin reward of raid, I’m on the fence. Like in fractal, I would still want that some of the reward is unique to the higher difficulty mode.

Astralporing.1957:

Look at Fractals. The rewards are the same across all the levels, only droprates are different. Yet still people do the highest tier fractals, even when they are more difficult than level 1-10 ones. Quantity does matter.
(don’t bring swamp up, here we have the problem with quantity being the same for different difficulty, which is not anything anyon argues here for)

Sorry, I disagree. The data can’t be considered fairly when Swamps is in the mix. Swamps does not actually add any difficulty and it adds a trivial amount of time to the process. You need to be looking at the older data as Thaddeus points out.

Astralporing.1957:

Way to avoid the point completely.
Either after the split there will still be enough hard mode players to sustain it, in which case it’s not an argument, or there won’t be, in which case there wasn’t enough of them to justify the mode in the first place.

But raids as they are have exceeded their target participation rate so there’s no need to implement the model in the first place.

I get what you’re saying but there’s no need to make multimodal raids when they’re already justifying their resource expenditure and then some.

Astralporing.1957:

Yes, but the apple tree is not Raid. It’s ANet. Raid is just the box you pick them from – there’s no reason why they can’t also be in a different box.

I dunno. I think I’ve made myself clear on which rewards I think should be offered through other avenues and which shouldn’t. Legendary armor through a second avenue, sure, accessories with new stat spreads, sure, skins, I’d rather not.

Ohoni.6057:

You get Easy Mode…..
You get 5% of the gold value while not under the mists buff.
You don’t get shards, the unique items, legendary armor collection pieces, nor achievement progress

Satisfied ?

No, why do you ask? Shouldn’t you know the answer to that already? I mean, would you run the raid under those circumstances?

Seeing as the mode isn’t aimed at me. No, i probably wouldn’t.

However for those people who want to (and im going to use this word really liberally) try to raid for the first time. It’s perfectly fine.

Also, I asked to prove a point.

I compromised i went from junk to some silver, and gave into the idea of an easy mode even existing. Should one exist its rewards should be barebones.

Where’s the fair play man ?
Classic case of greed going on here.

Here, help me help you what exactly do you have a problem with again given the solution above ?