Guild Wars 2

zaced.7948:

the line to p2w was already crossed with the ore-pack.
the line was already crossed with being able to buy gold for gems.
this and the pick are p2w by definition. t
hat the items (or the chance for items) you get by paying for gemshop stuff are not worth much does not change the fact that you can pay money (or buy “money (gems)” for gold, which systematically doesn’t matter in the end because someone else had to buy it) to generate numerical advatages ingame.
pay-to-win-an-insignificant-amount is still pay-to-win.

since p2w (as it’s defined by logic, people tend to have rude things called “opinions” apart from that) was included in this game from the beginning, i don’t care that much about that pick.
resignation makes indifferent.
just placing my post in this pot of “wrong direction, anet!”-shouters, so that maybe one day it might spill over.

this.

killcannon.2576:

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

Not P2W.
Not by a long shot. And here’s why…
For those us us that have completed the meta for this LS, we have our own personal node to get Sprockets. Much like the Quartz Node, this will give us access to something you can’t get anywhere else in game.
But, where does that leave those of us who do not, or are unable to finish the meta?
kitten out of luck, that’s what. Unless they have a generous friend that lets them into their Home Instance to use their node…
This pick gives people another option for getting this crafting material, and puts less pressure on those who have a hard time with the meta.
On top of that, Sprockets can be bought and sold on the TP. This Pick in no way shape or form makes those without access to it unable to get Sprockets. If it did… If this Pick was the only way to get Sprockets, then I’d be up in arms over this like everyone else.

Pay2Win?
People are /far/ to quick to want to slap that label on this game

So then where is the goal post? If they sell a pick that gives a chance for ori at each node? Azurite Orbs? Gives gold coins? After all, these are all available in game and can be had by anyone.

Yes, the sprockets are a small thing. So let’s just move the goal post a little further…then a little further…then a little more.

It’s up to the player base to let the devs know whether or not they are ok with what’s on offer. For some players, just being able to buy gold is p2w, even if there was a good reason behind it (although this has not stopped gold sellers or bots at all in game, so that’s a failed experiment to an extent. Anet just gets a cut of those profits now). Players have the obligation to voice their opinions on either side of this issue.

In truth, it’s a p2w mechanic, just like many other p2w mechanics in game already. This one is just way to obvious to let go.

Where that ‘goal post’ is, is subjective, and impossible to say without saying ‘My opinion means more then yours.’ (There is enough of that on these forums already…) The examples you used to try and make that point are hyperbole (some more extreme then others… Gold Coins from an ore node… I’d walk away from this game at that point, and I really enjoy playing it.)
Now, while I do understand what you are trying to say, it’s a slippery slope argument that I have yet to see justified in this game… And more often then not, such arguments assume that Anet and those running the show there are oblivious to where the line is when it comes to becoming nothing more then a true Pay2Win game as opposed to simply ‘casual friendly’. There is a difference that people are all too quick to try and blur here…

To the topic of the Sprockets themselves…
So, instead of this Pick which gives a chance at giving players a single type of crafting material, you would rather those that can’t get the meta done have no way of gaining Sprockets outside of buying them from other players, once this LS is complete?

Again. Nothing gives a player with this item an advantage over anyone else. The only thing this does is it helps (slightly) to give players another way to get Sprockets (along with the bonus of having a pick that they can use indefinitely, which is nothing new in this game.) Something which players that have completed the meta already get via the node in the Home Instance without a single Gem spent.

TL;DR: If the Pick allowed you, the player to get things that were otherwise impossible to get in the game (aka, if Sprockets were un-tradable, no Sprocket node in the home instance, they are gone after the LS is done…) the yes, I’ll concede a possible P2W.
As it is, it does not.

If vol, who is married to an Anet dev, says something is wrong, then you know there is a problem…

Algreg.3629:

buuuhuuuu, people who pay more get more than people who pay less. people who manage to acquire more gold and transform to gems get more than people who acquire less. An outrage. Well, improve in game or, like, get a better job or something…. Oh well, I forgot, GW2 is “casual paradise”, sorry, let me shed a tear for ya… world´s tiniest violin is going to play a song, sit and listen. Or grab your smartphone and download Angry Birds. At last a game where noone bothers you with being better or earning more money in real life.

Nice attempt to troll, or serious cry for help. Either way, I’ll treat that rant as a joke, and continue to be polite.

This is a laughable move on the part of Anet. This is the IMO the shot across the bow announcing Pay to Win, or at least testing the waters. It is pay to win “but you guys don’t mind right, its only sprockets!” I mind.

To answer the “human” above, I paid more for my copy of GW2 than you did (or at least you didn’t pay more for your Collectors Edition than I did) and I’ve bought gems with cash and gold because I’m not poor in game or IRL so Jenga. I and many others take issue with anything introduced into the gem store that threatens to turn this game many of us love, into a joke. I will not play a PTW game, period. As I have purchased this B2P game and even additonaly funded it by purchasing gems and a second account, this is my game. This PTW feature must be removed and never attempted again in any form.

Really, the most tedious part is now I have to go return 8 out of my 9 unlimited picks for gems and then buy back the new ones.

Maybe the vendor in LA can just trade them without me having to bug Support? There’s already a page for swapping soulbound ones for account bound versions…

Zoid.2568:

Mikuchan.7261:

henry.1420:

Problem is people already bought them, so they cannot simply remove the feature, otherwise they have to deal with loads of refund requests.
So I’m thinking this will be the new trend, i.e. new gathering tools have bonus of getting new LS crafting materials, from now on. Previous bought item.. um.. you got your benefit already for the past x months now time to move on and buy a new one.

They discontinued Flamekissed armor.
They can do the same for this.

If they remove this pickaxe i will have to murder every whiny little kitten in this thread.

They do not need to remove the pick-axe. They do in my personal opinion need to remove the sprocket that the axe gives. It is a convenience and looks gem shop item and it should only be a convenience and looks item, not a way to get a different item that has a limited source.

Nike.2631:

Really, the most tedious part is now I have to go return 8 out of my 9 unlimited picks for gems and then buy back the new ones.

Maybe the vendor in LA can just trade them without me having to bug Support? There’s already a page for swapping soulbound ones for account bound versions…

If you have success with that, let me know? I have 5 Molten picks I’ll need to trade in too.

I have no doubt I’ll succeed. Its their stated policy to allow returns of all duplicate tools (that why I’ll only return 8 out of 9- you have to keep at least one original item). Its just a pain in the butt I had been hoping to avoid.

If you have 5 you’ll be able to return 4 of them.

Palador.2170:

Quarktastic.1027:

I love how the forums blew up so quickly over this, without anyone actually testing the pick to see what it really does.

I’ve been using the pick for the better part of a day, just running around mining nodes in Orr and Sparkfly Fen. I’ve noticed that I never seem to get multiple ore chunks from a single swing with this pick. Rather, I get one ore chunk and a sprocket. So my running theory is, the pick replaces the bonus ore chunks you would normally get from nodes with watchwork sprockets. If this is true, the pick is far less “pay2win” than it appears.

12 strikes off of the rich copper vein in the Shamans’ Rookery JP. Sprockets and gems came with it, as usual.

How many of those 12 strikes gave you double ore? How much ore did you end up with after those 12 strikes?

I also do not understand how breaking open a rock to get the ore contained within it can somehow give cast metal that has been milled and routed with teeth. Might as well somehow get perfectly tanned and dyed leather patches or a fully functional engine from a 1980 Harley Davidson motor cycle…both make just as much sense as getting sprockets from mining an ore node.

Zoid.2568:

Mikuchan.7261:

henry.1420:

Problem is people already bought them, so they cannot simply remove the feature, otherwise they have to deal with loads of refund requests.
So I’m thinking this will be the new trend, i.e. new gathering tools have bonus of getting new LS crafting materials, from now on. Previous bought item.. um.. you got your benefit already for the past x months now time to move on and buy a new one.

They discontinued Flamekissed armor.
They can do the same for this.

If they remove this pickaxe i will have to murder every whiny little kitten in this thread.

I still don’t understand how anyone can defend this pickaxe.

IMO they should discontinue the gem store PERIOD. Everything offered in the gem store should be obtained as a POSSIBLE DROP to make the player-base feel as though they are working for something more than the garbage drops we currently get.

kokiman.2364:

Zoid.2568:

Mikuchan.7261:

henry.1420:

Problem is people already bought them, so they cannot simply remove the feature, otherwise they have to deal with loads of refund requests.
So I’m thinking this will be the new trend, i.e. new gathering tools have bonus of getting new LS crafting materials, from now on. Previous bought item.. um.. you got your benefit already for the past x months now time to move on and buy a new one.

They discontinued Flamekissed armor.
They can do the same for this.

If they remove this pickaxe i will have to murder every whiny little kitten in this thread.

I still don’t understand how anyone can defend this pickaxe.

This.

And I don’t understand the argument “There are already pay 2 win stuff on the black lion, so why bother?” that’s being thrown around.
That’s even a bigger reason to stop it, rather than the contrary, no?

Also this:

I also do not understand how breaking open a rock to get the ore contained within it can somehow give cast metal that has been milled and routed with teeth. Might as well somehow get perfectly tanned and dyed leather patches or a fully functional engine from a 1980 Harley Davidson motor cycle…both make just as much sense as getting sprockets from mining an ore node.

Im Mudbone.1437:

IMO they should discontinue the gem store PERIOD. Everything offered in the gem store should be obtained as a POSSIBLE DROP to make the player-base feel as though they are working for something more than the garbage drops we currently get.

And who’s going to pay for the development cost, maintenance cost, server cost, advertising cost and whatever more there are? you?
A cash shop is perfectly fine as long as it’s maintained in a good and ethical fashion.

Mikuchan.7261:

Im Mudbone.1437:

IMO they should discontinue the gem store PERIOD. Everything offered in the gem store should be obtained as a POSSIBLE DROP to make the player-base feel as though they are working for something more than the garbage drops we currently get.

And who’s going to pay for the development cost, maintenance cost, server cost, advertising cost and whatever more there are? you?
A cash shop is perfectly fine as long as it’s maintained in a good and ethical fashion.

They did fine with GW1 not having a gem store.

So can I send a ticket to return my Molten Mining Pick and exchange for this new mining pick?

Im Mudbone.1437:

Mikuchan.7261:

Im Mudbone.1437:

IMO they should discontinue the gem store PERIOD. Everything offered in the gem store should be obtained as a POSSIBLE DROP to make the player-base feel as though they are working for something more than the garbage drops we currently get.

And who’s going to pay for the development cost, maintenance cost, server cost, advertising cost and whatever more there are? you?
A cash shop is perfectly fine as long as it’s maintained in a good and ethical fashion.

They did fine with GW1 not having a gem store.

GW1 -did- have a “gem” store.
So obviously they didn’t do fine without one.
Furthermore, GW1 is old technology. It requires alot less maintenance and most importantly, they could throw out massive amounts of expansions in very short times that people bought. That can’t be done in the same way for GW2 since GW2 requires alot more development time due to it’s increased level of complexity in graphics, audio, mechanics etc.
Also an expansion is a 1-time profit, the gem store is long-term.
It’s not healthy to finance your game only on expansions.
You basically need a recurring income.
Hence the cash shop exist and should exist.
Furthermore, if you’ve watched WoodenPotatoes on youtube, there was content that was supposed to come for GW1 and was partially finished, but never completed and released. The reasons aren’t given but they could be of a financial nature.

Mikuchan.7261:

Im Mudbone.1437:

Mikuchan.7261:

Im Mudbone.1437:

IMO they should discontinue the gem store PERIOD. Everything offered in the gem store should be obtained as a POSSIBLE DROP to make the player-base feel as though they are working for something more than the garbage drops we currently get.

And who’s going to pay for the development cost, maintenance cost, server cost, advertising cost and whatever more there are? you?
A cash shop is perfectly fine as long as it’s maintained in a good and ethical fashion.

They did fine with GW1 not having a gem store.

GW1 -did- have a “gem” store.
So obviously they didn’t do fine without one.
Furthermore, GW1 is old technology. It requires alot less maintenance and most importantly, they could throw out massive amounts of expansions in very short times that people bought. That can’t be done in the same way for GW2 since GW2 requires alot more development time due to it’s increased level of complexity in graphics, audio, mechanics etc.
Also an expansion is a 1-time profit, the gem store is long-term.
It’s not healthy to finance your game only on expansions.
You basically need a recurring income.
Hence the cash shop exist and should exist.
Furthermore, if you’ve watched WoodenPotatoes on youtube, there was content that was supposed to come for GW1 and was partially finished, but never completed and released. The reasons aren’t given but they could be of a financial nature.

They did? Where? In my six years of GW1 all I have seen was the ability to buy character slots, the GW1 game itself and expansions, extra storage, skill unlocks, hero packs and such using RLM, no stupid gems.

Im Mudbone.1437:

Mikuchan.7261:

Im Mudbone.1437:

Mikuchan.7261:

Im Mudbone.1437:

IMO they should discontinue the gem store PERIOD. Everything offered in the gem store should be obtained as a POSSIBLE DROP to make the player-base feel as though they are working for something more than the garbage drops we currently get.

And who’s going to pay for the development cost, maintenance cost, server cost, advertising cost and whatever more there are? you?
A cash shop is perfectly fine as long as it’s maintained in a good and ethical fashion.

They did fine with GW1 not having a gem store.

GW1 -did- have a “gem” store.
So obviously they didn’t do fine without one.
Furthermore, GW1 is old technology. It requires alot less maintenance and most importantly, they could throw out massive amounts of expansions in very short times that people bought. That can’t be done in the same way for GW2 since GW2 requires alot more development time due to it’s increased level of complexity in graphics, audio, mechanics etc.
Also an expansion is a 1-time profit, the gem store is long-term.
It’s not healthy to finance your game only on expansions.
You basically need a recurring income.
Hence the cash shop exist and should exist.
Furthermore, if you’ve watched WoodenPotatoes on youtube, there was content that was supposed to come for GW1 and was partially finished, but never completed and released. The reasons aren’t given but they could be of a financial nature.

They did? Where? In my six years of GW1 all I have seen was the ability to buy character slots, the GW1 game itself and expansions, extra storage, skill unlocks, hero packs and such using RLM, no stupid gems.

No, instead of having the middle-hand “gems”, you bought stuff directly with money. Your point? It’s the same thing, namely a cash shop. Pointing out that it doesn’t use it’s own currency is rather pointless.

Mikuchan.7261:

Im Mudbone.1437:

Mikuchan.7261:

Im Mudbone.1437:

Mikuchan.7261:

Im Mudbone.1437:

IMO they should discontinue the gem store PERIOD. Everything offered in the gem store should be obtained as a POSSIBLE DROP to make the player-base feel as though they are working for something more than the garbage drops we currently get.

And who’s going to pay for the development cost, maintenance cost, server cost, advertising cost and whatever more there are? you?
A cash shop is perfectly fine as long as it’s maintained in a good and ethical fashion.

They did fine with GW1 not having a gem store.

GW1 -did- have a “gem” store.
So obviously they didn’t do fine without one.
Furthermore, GW1 is old technology. It requires alot less maintenance and most importantly, they could throw out massive amounts of expansions in very short times that people bought. That can’t be done in the same way for GW2 since GW2 requires alot more development time due to it’s increased level of complexity in graphics, audio, mechanics etc.
Also an expansion is a 1-time profit, the gem store is long-term.
It’s not healthy to finance your game only on expansions.
You basically need a recurring income.
Hence the cash shop exist and should exist.
Furthermore, if you’ve watched WoodenPotatoes on youtube, there was content that was supposed to come for GW1 and was partially finished, but never completed and released. The reasons aren’t given but they could be of a financial nature.

They did? Where? In my six years of GW1 all I have seen was the ability to buy character slots, the GW1 game itself and expansions, extra storage, skill unlocks, hero packs and such using RLM, no stupid gems.

No, instead of having the middle-hand “gems”, you bought stuff directly with money. Your point? It’s the same thing, namely a cash shop. Pointing out that it doesn’t use it’s own currency is rather pointless.

My point is that gems to product in GW2 is overly inflated.

I’m sorry this is unfair.
Many players would bought an infinite set (or multiple sets) across there characters to now have a new set introduced which can give a x% bonus of a type of item.

The only fair change I can imagine is either:
A) Keep this new pick with the bonus IF the following is also done:
1) Existing ingame (via copper) purchasable picks – now all have a % change to gain sprockets.
2) Existing infinitate tools – now also receive a % chance to gain sprockets

B) Remove the sprocket chance completely from mining.

A dangerous precedent has been created where different infinite mining tools may grant other additional % of harvesting a particular material. This I cannot support in any form.

Im Mudbone.1437:

They did? Where? In my six years of GW1 all I have seen was the ability to buy character slots, the GW1 game itself and expansions, extra storage, skill unlocks, hero packs and such using RLM, no stupid gems.

No, no stupid gems but Character Slots were available, as well as:

- Bank Expansion Slots (up to 4)
- Game of the Year conversion
- Costumes (I last counted 7 I think)
- Bonus Mission Pack
- Skill Unlock Pack
- Mercenary Hero Slots (Use your alts as heroes!)

May I note most of that is available through the GW2 Gem Store, except for the last three, were available in GW1? I’m also not sure but I thought I saw you could get License Keys if your account wasn’t unlocked completely . . . wouldn’t know as I bought mine.

Oh, well, you can look for yourself here

How much of this stuff translates to GW2 when there’s a proper analogue? Most of it.

So, yes. By the way, skill unlock pack? “Pay to win” . . . it’s been ArenaNet’s method since before GW2, obviously. So whatever

It isn’t the first time they do something like that – digital deluxe upgraders had seen their upgrade become obsolete when they introduced heroic items in it for new purchases, still at the same price. And very few people were against it.
Now that is your turn to get shafted, there are multiple threads about it.
Well, i didn’t get anything for my obsolete deluxe upgrade, and neither will you. Just live with it – after all, you bought that instrument for what it does, you aren’t entitled for more things (or at least that’s what people said about the upgrade).

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Im Mudbone.1437:

They did? Where? In my six years of GW1 all I have seen was the ability to buy character slots, the GW1 game itself and expansions, extra storage, skill unlocks, hero packs and such using RLM, no stupid gems.

No, no stupid gems but Character Slots were available, as well as:

- Bank Expansion Slots (up to 4)
- Game of the Year conversion
- Costumes (I last counted 7 I think)
- Bonus Mission Pack
- Skill Unlock Pack
- Mercenary Hero Slots (Use your alts as heroes!)

May I note most of that is available through the GW2 Gem Store, except for the last three, were available in GW1? I’m also not sure but I thought I saw you could get License Keys if your account wasn’t unlocked completely . . . wouldn’t know as I bought mine.

Oh, well, you can look for yourself here

How much of this stuff translates to GW2 when there’s a proper analogue? Most of it.

So, yes. By the way, skill unlock pack? “Pay to win” . . . it’s been ArenaNet’s method since before GW2, obviously. So whatever

The skill unlock packs are also obtainable through normal game-play or by buying them affectively eliminating the need to do the leg-work(for the lazy gamer) in order to get, so, that’s not P2W.

yes it is.

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Don’t we have a sprocket generator node in the home instance now, so is the 20% chance to mine sprockets from ore node really the only source? Can’t say I’m overly fussed over this item…

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

killcannon.2576:

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

Not P2W.
Not by a long shot. And here’s why…
For those us us that have completed the meta for this LS, we have our own personal node to get Sprockets. Much like the Quartz Node, this will give us access to something you can’t get anywhere else in game.
But, where does that leave those of us who do not, or are unable to finish the meta?
kitten out of luck, that’s what. Unless they have a generous friend that lets them into their Home Instance to use their node…
This pick gives people another option for getting this crafting material, and puts less pressure on those who have a hard time with the meta.
On top of that, Sprockets can be bought and sold on the TP. This Pick in no way shape or form makes those without access to it unable to get Sprockets. If it did… If this Pick was the only way to get Sprockets, then I’d be up in arms over this like everyone else.

Pay2Win?
People are /far/ to quick to want to slap that label on this game

So then where is the goal post? If they sell a pick that gives a chance for ori at each node? Azurite Orbs? Gives gold coins? After all, these are all available in game and can be had by anyone.

Yes, the sprockets are a small thing. So let’s just move the goal post a little further…then a little further…then a little more.

It’s up to the player base to let the devs know whether or not they are ok with what’s on offer. For some players, just being able to buy gold is p2w, even if there was a good reason behind it (although this has not stopped gold sellers or bots at all in game, so that’s a failed experiment to an extent. Anet just gets a cut of those profits now). Players have the obligation to voice their opinions on either side of this issue.

In truth, it’s a p2w mechanic, just like many other p2w mechanics in game already. This one is just way to obvious to let go.

Where that ‘goal post’ is, is subjective, and impossible to say without saying ‘My opinion means more then yours.’ (There is enough of that on these forums already…) The examples you used to try and make that point are hyperbole (some more extreme then others… Gold Coins from an ore node… I’d walk away from this game at that point, and I really enjoy playing it.)
Now, while I do understand what you are trying to say, it’s a slippery slope argument that I have yet to see justified in this game… And more often then not, such arguments assume that Anet and those running the show there are oblivious to where the line is when it comes to becoming nothing more then a true Pay2Win game as opposed to simply ‘casual friendly’. There is a difference that people are all too quick to try and blur here…

To the topic of the Sprockets themselves…
So, instead of this Pick which gives a chance at giving players a single type of crafting material, you would rather those that can’t get the meta done have no way of gaining Sprockets outside of buying them from other players, once this LS is complete?

Again. Nothing gives a player with this item an advantage over anyone else. The only thing this does is it helps (slightly) to give players another way to get Sprockets (along with the bonus of having a pick that they can use indefinitely, which is nothing new in this game.) Something which players that have completed the meta already get via the node in the Home Instance without a single Gem spent.

TL;DR: If the Pick allowed you, the player to get things that were otherwise impossible to get in the game (aka, if Sprockets were un-tradable, no Sprocket node in the home instance, they are gone after the LS is done…) the yes, I’ll concede a possible P2W.
As it is, it does not.

I’m not using a slippery slope argument. A game becomes pay to win as soon as you can buy things with money that are not available to everyone else in game through normal game play. It’s that simple. The game has always been pay to win to some extent, it just wasn’t very blunt about it.

Can I also get a pick in game through normal game play that has a bonus chance of spitting out sprockets? No? p2w.

What the people who are arguing for keeping this and things like this in game are using is a shifting sands logical fallacy. You said it yourself, if it gave out gold coins…then it would be pay to win. Why? It spits out sprockets worth…you guessed it…money. It’s just not that much. But it’s the same exact thing as a pick that would spit out gold coins at your feet. The only thing that is different is a persons perception of what is worthwhile.

Which is a logical fallacy. This is not subjective.

I don’t know the definition of pay 2 win. Everyone have different opinion.

But there are other items that can be only be gotten from the gem store already. Skins, kite etc. Does that mean it is pay 2 win before?

Also having a currency exchange, means everything from gem store can be gotten in game. Does it mean it is not pay 2 win?

I can say the same about the other 500 asian F2P games with currency exchange. Everything can be gotten in game. I think people still call those games pay 2 win.

rogerwilko.6895:

yes it is.

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P2W is the ability to buy something NOT OBTAINABLE through normal game-play which IS NOT the case for the items mentioned in my reply before yours, so, no it’s not unlike GW2 which has MANY items ONLY OBTAINABLE by paying for them. THAT is P2W.

Im Mudbone.1437:

rogerwilko.6895:

yes it is.

Message Body length must at least be 15.

P2W is the ability to buy something NOT OBTAINABLE through normal game-play which IS NOT the case for the items mentioned in my reply before yours, so, no it’s not unlike GW2 which has MANY items ONLY OBTAINABLE by paying for them. THAT is P2W.

So GW2 is already pay 2 win 1 year ago? many skins can’t be obtained through normal game play.

laokoko.7403:

Im Mudbone.1437:

rogerwilko.6895:

yes it is.

Message Body length must at least be 15.

P2W is the ability to buy something NOT OBTAINABLE through normal game-play which IS NOT the case for the items mentioned in my reply before yours, so, no it’s not unlike GW2 which has MANY items ONLY OBTAINABLE by paying for them. THAT is P2W.

So GW2 is already pay 2 win 1 year ago? many skins can’t be obtained through normal game play.

That is correct.

Im Mudbone.1437:

laokoko.7403:

Im Mudbone.1437:

rogerwilko.6895:

yes it is.

Message Body length must at least be 15.

P2W is the ability to buy something NOT OBTAINABLE through normal game-play which IS NOT the case for the items mentioned in my reply before yours, so, no it’s not unlike GW2 which has MANY items ONLY OBTAINABLE by paying for them. THAT is P2W.

So GW2 is already pay 2 win 1 year ago? many skins can’t be obtained through normal game play.

That is correct.

You have very high standard.

What if you can obtain every item in the game. But say the sprocket mining pick require 1,000 hours of farming and grinding for gold to obtain or you can just buy from the cashshop for 10$. That means it is not pay 2 win?

killcannon.2576:

What the people who are arguing for keeping this and things like this in game are using is a shifting sands logical fallacy. You said it yourself, if it gave out gold coins…then it would be pay to win. Why? It spits out sprockets worth…you guessed it…money. It’s just not that much. But it’s the same exact thing as a pick that would spit out gold coins at your feet. The only thing that is different is a persons perception of what is worthwhile.

Which is a logical fallacy. This is not subjective.

No, I’m not arguing for keeping this. I’m saying there’s always been a P2W element in GuildWars if you care to look hard enough, and this pick isn’t remotely close to what most people think of.

Why? It’s simple. The sprockets are limited-availability. However, the Queen’s Pavilion where there were four areas and you could fight Destroyers, Flame Legion, Bandits, Centaurs? You got sprockets in there. They’ve said, or at least inferred, that area will come back sometime in the future.

This now (provisionally) puts sprockets on the same level as snowflakes, candy corn, quartz crystals, baubles, and the inventory-jamming ugly wool clothing.

Add to the concept of the Gift of Sprockets which can provide a lot of those in the home instance for doing 11 achievements for the current meta-achievement? When it’s possible to earn over half of them in one round of marionette/wurm/energy probes?

Yeah, I really want to point out if anything this is for the lazy people. Much like the unlocks for sale for GW1 mentioned above being for people who were lazy. If this is P2W, so is that. Doubly so since skill acquisition was a major part of that game.

Im Mudbone.1437:

rogerwilko.6895:

yes it is.

Message Body length must at least be 15.

P2W is the ability to buy something NOT OBTAINABLE through normal game-play which IS NOT the case for the items mentioned in my reply before yours, so, no it’s not unlike GW2 which has MANY items ONLY OBTAINABLE by paying for them. THAT is P2W.

OMG, you can get it through normal game play. Farm for gold and covert it to gems to get the item! I got the pick by converting gold to gems! To me it’s 4 days of my daily dungeon rotations to get the gold for the gems I needed to purchase the pick.

I will agree with P2W if the item can only be obtained with $$ RL money only and no other means. Come on people, do we just complain about every single thing!

laokoko.7403:

Im Mudbone.1437:

laokoko.7403:

Im Mudbone.1437:

rogerwilko.6895:

yes it is.

Message Body length must at least be 15.

P2W is the ability to buy something NOT OBTAINABLE through normal game-play which IS NOT the case for the items mentioned in my reply before yours, so, no it’s not unlike GW2 which has MANY items ONLY OBTAINABLE by paying for them. THAT is P2W.

So GW2 is already pay 2 win 1 year ago? many skins can’t be obtained through normal game play.

That is correct.

You have very high standard.

What if you can obtain every item in the game. But say the sprocket mining pick require 1,000 hours of farming and grinding for gold to obtain or you can just buy from the cashshop for 10$. That means it is not pay 2 win?

Infinite Continue Coin was dubbed “pay to win” despite the potential for one person to farm infinite coins anyway. So, no, even if you had to grind your cute little mesmer’s butt off farming and grinding for gold and could shortcut it with some cash? Still would be called “pay to win”.

Im Mudbone.1437:

IMO they should discontinue the gem store PERIOD. Everything offered in the gem store should be obtained as a POSSIBLE DROP to make the player-base feel as though they are working for something more than the garbage drops we currently get.

They should close down the game and stop making updates for it. Good plan.

Im Mudbone.1437:

laokoko.7403:

Im Mudbone.1437:

rogerwilko.6895:

yes it is.

Message Body length must at least be 15.

P2W is the ability to buy something NOT OBTAINABLE through normal game-play which IS NOT the case for the items mentioned in my reply before yours, so, no it’s not unlike GW2 which has MANY items ONLY OBTAINABLE by paying for them. THAT is P2W.

So GW2 is already pay 2 win 1 year ago? many skins can’t be obtained through normal game play.

That is correct.

As mentioned many times up to this point, skins in the gem store are cosmetic and offer no advantage (unless looking more fab than someone else is an advantage, however subjective) over other players. This mining pick does offer an advantage over other players who do not have it (even if not much of one at this point in time) and it opens the door for any number of potential offerings in the future (note the thread name and premise of the OP). It has also now introduced what appears to be a so-called “treadmill” for best in slot of foraging tools to where the next release may offer a bonus of something viewed as having more worth and will seemingly obsolete any previous tools as it would no longer be the best (just as this pick obsoletes previous picks). There are many posts in this thread outlining all of what I’ve just summarized. I highly recommend anyone entering this thread at this point to take the time to read through the entire thing before making a potentially duplicate or not entirely informed post.

Atavus, yes, yes they do. The pick-ax and the fore mentioned ore nodes are not P2W because you CAN get sprockets and those ores in game without having to even work too terribly hard. It’s simply another way to obtain them. I’m still not sure how I feel about getting sprockets through a mining pick, but that’s my own personal opinion. I do NOT feel it’s P2W.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

laokoko.7403:

Im Mudbone.1437:

laokoko.7403:

Im Mudbone.1437:

rogerwilko.6895:

yes it is.

Message Body length must at least be 15.

P2W is the ability to buy something NOT OBTAINABLE through normal game-play which IS NOT the case for the items mentioned in my reply before yours, so, no it’s not unlike GW2 which has MANY items ONLY OBTAINABLE by paying for them. THAT is P2W.

So GW2 is already pay 2 win 1 year ago? many skins can’t be obtained through normal game play.

That is correct.

You have very high standard.

What if you can obtain every item in the game. But say the sprocket mining pick require 1,000 hours of farming and grinding for gold to obtain or you can just buy from the cashshop for 10$. That means it is not pay 2 win?

Infinite Continue Coin was dubbed “pay to win” despite the potential for one person to farm infinite coins anyway. So, no, even if you had to grind your cute little mesmer’s butt off farming and grinding for gold and could shortcut it with some cash? Still would be called “pay to win”.

Thank you, spot on.

The gold/material gain is miniscule, therefore negligible.
You don’t need it, it’s optional.
You can still get sprockets through tp/normal play.
Let’s wait and see where they go with this instead of preemptive whining.
They never said weren’t going to do things like this.
etc
etc

Notice the similarities in these argument, compared to something that starts with ‘a’?

I just wanted to add another voice echoing that this is a very dangerous precedent down a slippery slope.

I would love to get the Watchwork Pick too, but cannot morally support it right now for the reasons already mentioned in this thread.

Gameplay-wise, the playing field needs to be level between those that use the gem store and those that don’t.

Having a limited time pick that gives a chance for bonus items in the gem store and no other equivalent item available is a gameplay advantage – small, almost insignificant, but it is there, and it is unacceptable.

Either solution would be acceptable to me:

• Remove the chance for sprockets from the pick and have the advantage be cosmetic and convenience only, with the equivalent item being the existing limited charge orichalcum picks available from vendors.

• Let the vendors sell a new limited charge pick that provides the same chance for sprockets, so that there is an equivalent item that non-gem store users have access to, thus keeping the playing field level.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

killcannon.2576:

What the people who are arguing for keeping this and things like this in game are using is a shifting sands logical fallacy. You said it yourself, if it gave out gold coins…then it would be pay to win. Why? It spits out sprockets worth…you guessed it…money. It’s just not that much. But it’s the same exact thing as a pick that would spit out gold coins at your feet. The only thing that is different is a persons perception of what is worthwhile.

Which is a logical fallacy. This is not subjective.

No, I’m not arguing for keeping this. I’m saying there’s always been a P2W element in GuildWars if you care to look hard enough, and this pick isn’t remotely close to what most people think of.

Why? It’s simple. The sprockets are limited-availability. However, the Queen’s Pavilion where there were four areas and you could fight Destroyers, Flame Legion, Bandits, Centaurs? You got sprockets in there. They’ve said, or at least inferred, that area will come back sometime in the future.

This now (provisionally) puts sprockets on the same level as snowflakes, candy corn, quartz crystals, baubles, and the inventory-jamming ugly wool clothing.

Add to the concept of the Gift of Sprockets which can provide a lot of those in the home instance for doing 11 achievements for the current meta-achievement? When it’s possible to earn over half of them in one round of marionette/wurm/energy probes?

Yeah, I really want to point out if anything this is for the lazy people. Much like the unlocks for sale for GW1 mentioned above being for people who were lazy. If this is P2W, so is that. Doubly so since skill acquisition was a major part of that game.

You’re right. GW2 (and I guess GW1, never played) has always had an element of p2w about it. It was just subtle and the trade off for it was being able to use in game gold to buy gems to use in the store. Overall, it’s a great system.

Most items in the cash shop are for lazy people, and generally they are harmless.

Personally, I couldn’t care less about it. Pretty much the only reason I’m posting is to counter the “It’s not p2w because it’s a very small advantage” argument.

I find this to be insulting. Gem store should be for convenience, not P2W. I get that they want to make money, but this is just going on a path that will make many people say goodbye to this game, myself included. And people are already spending insane amounts of cash on the gem store as it is.

Please remove the bonus sprockets or add this exact bonus to EVERY EL pick (or same-chance in-game pick).

Dear all,

I can not understand why you are so stressed about a simple permanent mining pick…
Come on, is this offer such a game breaker?!
Almost 400 replies and tens of thousands of words over such a triviality…
Actually I think the offer is a gem rip off. With that amount of gems you can buy gold to buy many, many sprockets…

MMO’s player communities never cease to amaze me…LoL.

Red

And so the poor dead horse continues to be beaten with the big ugly P2W stick. Seriously guys, I’m surprised there’s anything left there to beat. Let the poor thing decompose and get back to gaming like the good little gamer geeks we are.

I’m against the pick and will not buy it. Convenience, sure, but this is a blatant gear threadmill and P2W.

I also disagree with the decision to put that 20% chance to mine sprockets out of ore veins.

Just thought that the more people that complain about this, higher the chance that they remove it.

You’ll get a heartfelt apology once it sells enough and a promise of rectification while they work on the next cash shop moneymaker.

laokoko.7403:

I come from the future. Do you know sprocket price have skyrocket to 3 silver each!

Tell me, did we manage to get Scarlet into the wood chipper I tested on Zojja? And did SBI manage to make it to Gold League #1 slot yet? Ooh, and tell me does Kaineng City still stick to navigate?

Berelious.3290:

And so the poor dead horse continues to be beaten with the big ugly P2W stick. Seriously guys, I’m surprised there’s anything left there to beat. Let the poor thing decompose and get back to gaming like the good little gamer geeks we are.

What if in 3 months time precursor crafting requires 10.000 sprockets? Or 10.000 pristine snowflakes from an “unlimited ice pick”? Should we “revive” the “dead horse” then?

This discussion is valid, and I can assure you not all angles have yet been touched upon. If you have nothing to contribute, please don’t discourage others from doing so.