Guild Wars 2

Frankly, this topic should be locked:

1. Anet replied to the concern
2. I think everyone has covered both sides of the topic thoroughly

Not much left. The only reason anyone would want to have it left open is because they are campaigning.

Vayne.8563:

Well-founded or not, it’s an opinion. I have full ascended items on three characters and I’ll never have to grind on those characters again. Not for gear.

I only take issue with this, when it comes to gear in the game, in general. If stat or content changes drastically enough, you might want to re-gear a toon or two. This is where i fall on the entire gear grind deal. I think they’d do well to get the system closer to gear having a base stat (or just a skin, mostly) and by swapping out the insignia you could change the stats. That’s pretty much the main reason i don’t bother all that much with ascended, it’s just too crazy if i want to change stats.

Obtena.7952:

Frankly, this topic should be locked:

1. Anet replied to the concern
2. I think everyone has covered both sides of the topic thoroughly

Not much left. The only reason anyone would want to have it left open is because they are campaigning.

To be honest, the amount of posts help. The circular discussions don’t do anything, but it’s different for ArenaNet to see, “Look, there are 4 THOUSAND posts complaining about traits!” than “Look, there are 8 posts talking about how Defiance sucks”.

Just see Vayne’s post a bit above mine – he claims that he knew a lot of people felt they didn’t have anything do to at max level because a lot of people were complaining on the forum about it. If we see a lot of people complaining about grind on the forum (and better to do that in a single topic than have dozen topics about the same thing), maybe ArenaNet will do something about it.

Test.8734:

Obtena.7952:

Frankly, this topic should be locked:

1. Anet replied to the concern
2. I think everyone has covered both sides of the topic thoroughly

Not much left. The only reason anyone would want to have it left open is because they are campaigning.

To be honest, the amount of posts help. The circular discussions don’t do anything, but it’s different for ArenaNet to see, “Look, there are 4 THOUSAND posts complaining about traits!” than “Look, there are 8 posts talking about how Defiance sucks”.

Just see Vayne’s post a bit above mine – he claims that he knew a lot of people felt they didn’t have anything do to at max level because a lot of people were complaining on the forum about it. If we see a lot of people complaining about grind on the forum (and better to do that in a single topic than have dozen topics about the same thing), maybe ArenaNet will do something about it.

Again, if you think you know how many people were playing and logging in better than Anet did back in November when ascended gear came out, there’s not much to talk about.

I’m working on a hypothesis that the company didn’t just make this change to kitten people off. Taken in combination with the mood on the forum at that time, I can put two and two together and get four. I’m not the only one who came to this conclusion either.

But you know if you have some better reason why Anet made this change knowing how much it would kitten off their core player base, and they did know, then by all means, I’m willing to hear it.

Test.8734:

Obtena.7952:

Frankly, this topic should be locked:

1. Anet replied to the concern
2. I think everyone has covered both sides of the topic thoroughly

Not much left. The only reason anyone would want to have it left open is because they are campaigning.

To be honest, the amount of posts help. The circular discussions don’t do anything, but it’s different for ArenaNet to see, “Look, there are 4 THOUSAND posts complaining about traits!” than “Look, there are 8 posts talking about how Defiance sucks”.

Just see Vayne’s post a bit above mine – he claims that he knew a lot of people felt they didn’t have anything do to at max level because a lot of people were complaining on the forum about it. If we see a lot of people complaining about grind on the forum (and better to do that in a single topic than have dozen topics about the same thing), maybe ArenaNet will do something about it.

Spamming posts does not help. Just because a thread has an overwhelming number of posts does not indicate it’s more of an issue to players than one that does not. The fact that ANet has replied with their position on this is pretty much a /thread right there.

Vayne.8563:

Again, if you think you know how many people were playing and logging in better than Anet did back in November when ascended gear came out, there’s not much to talk about.

You’re making the same mistake that ArenaNet did. You are assuming that knowing how many people were playing is the same as knowing why those people were playing, and why everyone else wasn’t.

Are you going to claim ArenaNet has some miraculous mind reading device that allowed them to know exactly how everyone who stopped playing the game did so because they felt they needed one extra gear tier?

Because, without that device, all ArenaNet could do is take a guess. Just like you. They guessed that adding a new gear tier would keep more people playing than they would lose by announcing said gear tier. What we do know is that said new gear tier caused a massive uproar in the community, at least as loud as (if not louder) than the complain that players had nothing to do at max level.

Vayne.8563:

I’m working on a hypothesis that the company didn’t just make this change to kitten people off. Taken in combination with the mood on the forum at that time, I can put two and two together and get four. I’m not the only one who came to this conclusion either.

You are relying on your interpretation, assuming that’s something reliable at all. We know that at least about the Manifesto, you were wrong. You’re also relying on the vague other people who reached the same conclusion, without presenting any kind of reliable evidence that they can be believed in. So nope, that’s not a great argument.

Obtena.7952:

Spamming posts does not help. Just because a thread has an overwhelming number of complaints does not indicate it’s more of an issue to players than one that does not. The fact that ANet has replied with their position on this is pretty much a /thread right there.

In other hand, a topic that has an overwhelming number of clomplaints is more likely to be more of an issue to players than one that does not have more than five posts. Ideally ArenaNet would read the topics to see which is which, but having a very big topic is surely a way to get their attention.

Yes, that’s my point … you got their attention, they responded. More posts doesn’t change the outcome. The only reason this thread persists is because of campaigning.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

Again, if you think you know how many people were playing and logging in better than Anet did back in November when ascended gear came out, there’s not much to talk about.

You’re making the same mistake that ArenaNet did. You are assuming that knowing how many people were playing is the same as knowing why those people were playing, and why everyone else wasn’t.

Are you going to claim ArenaNet has some miraculous mind reading device that allowed them to know exactly how everyone who stopped playing the game did so because they felt they needed one extra gear tier?

Because, without that device, all ArenaNet could do is take a guess. Just like you. They guessed that adding a new gear tier would keep more people playing than they would lose by announcing said gear tier. What we do know is that said new gear tier caused a massive uproar in the community, at least as loud as (if not louder) than the complain that players had nothing to do at max level.

Vayne.8563:

I’m working on a hypothesis that the company didn’t just make this change to kitten people off. Taken in combination with the mood on the forum at that time, I can put two and two together and get four. I’m not the only one who came to this conclusion either.

You are relying on your interpretation, assuming that’s something reliable at all. We know that at least about the Manifesto, you were wrong. You’re also relying on the vague other people who reached the same conclusion, without presenting any kind of reliable evidence that they can be believed in. So nope, that’s not a great argument.

Obtena.7952:

Spamming posts does not help. Just because a thread has an overwhelming number of complaints does not indicate it’s more of an issue to players than one that does not. The fact that ANet has replied with their position on this is pretty much a /thread right there.

In other hand, a topic that has an overwhelming number of clomplaints is more likely to be more of an issue to players than one that does not have more than five posts. Ideally ArenaNet would read the topics to see which is which, but having a very big topic is surely a way to get their attention.

The combination of what people were saying on the forums at that time and people not logging in makes it hard to assume anything else though…and it’s a good bet that at least part of those people, including both my sons, left after they got max level gear. They were simply more used to WOW and without being told what to do, they found the game boring.

Both of them came back to make ascended gear. I said so at the time. So the combination the forums, both my sons and Anet’s decision seems to indicate that. Anet also hangs out in map chat an listens to what people are saying.

And you’ve yet to give me any other reason why that change would have been made.

How about we stop attacking each other for having our own opinions and get back on topic?

The more a thread goes off topic the less interest the devs will have in it. They don’t care about what you think of each other, they care about what you think of their game or about the topic at hand. They do not want to have to filter through hundreds of posts that are off topic.

Vayne.8563:

The combination of what people were saying on the forums at that time and people not logging in makes it hard to assume anything else though…and it’s a good bet that at least part of those people, including both my sons, left after they got max level gear.

See, you are doing the exact same thing you did in your previous post. You are asking us to rely only on your interpretation and on the opinion of people who you just allude to (be it when you say " I’m not the only one who came to this conclusion either" or your “sons”). Meanwhile we have already seen flaws in your interpretation (see the Manifesto), and we can’t rely merely on people you mention (just like I could say my guild of 1.000 players left because of ascended, without that being true).

What were people saying? A lot of things. Some that they didn’t like the high level content. Some that they didn’t have content enough. Some that they wanted more gear to grind for. Some that they wished the game had fewer levels.

Your assumption – that people stopped playing because ascended gear didn’t exist – is a guess. Which was also ArenaNet’s guess at the time, since you are basically (and unsurprisingly) agreeing with them. In other hand, the outcry following ascended erupted this forum at least as much as the discussions we had from people saying they had nothing to do before. So was ascended the right decision? Doesn’t look so.

Vayne.8563:

And you’ve yet to give me any other reason why that change would have been made.

I did. Because ArenaNet made a mistake.

Rin.1046:

How about we stop attacking each other for having our own opinions and get back on topic?

The more a thread goes off topic the less interest the devs will have in it. They don’t care about what you think of each other, they care about what you think of their game or about the topic at hand. They do not want to have to filter through hundreds of posts that are off topic.

I agree. I think ascended gear was a mistake since it was first introduced, and since ArenaNet believes ascended gear is the kind of thing we should be able to get without grind, the current system needs a massive rework.

I wouldn’t be sad if the rest of the content that feels grindy also were reworked. More things like Liandra and less rewards for spamming 1 20 hours per day would be nice.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

The combination of what people were saying on the forums at that time and people not logging in makes it hard to assume anything else though…and it’s a good bet that at least part of those people, including both my sons, left after they got max level gear.

See, you are doing the exact same thing you did in your previous post. You are asking us to rely only on your interpretation and on the opinion of people who you just allude to (be it when you say " I’m not the only one who came to this conclusion either" or your “sons”). Meanwhile we have already seen flaws in your interpretation (see the Manifesto), and we can’t rely merely on people you mention (just like I could say my guild of 1.000 players left because of ascended, without that being true).

What were people saying? A lot of things. Some that they didn’t like the high level content. Some that they didn’t have content enough. Some that they wanted more gear to grind for. Some that they wished the game had fewer levels.

Your assumption – that people stopped playing because ascended gear didn’t exist – is a guess. Which was also ArenaNet’s guess at the time, since you are basically (and unsurprisingly) agreeing with them. In other hand, the outcry following ascended erupted this forum at least as much as the discussions we had from people saying they had nothing to do before. So was ascended the right decision? Doesn’t look so.

Vayne.8563:

And you’ve yet to give me any other reason why that change would have been made.

I did. Because ArenaNet made a mistake.

Well it’s been nice chatting with you. We can leave it up to each individual reader to make a decision about which scenario is most likely.

Have a great night. I won’t be responding again.

Stark.1350:

Alright, I’m going to ask everyone in this thread a very simple question.

Say ascended armor was made much easier to obtain. Say it only took a month to complete “challenging content” to fully deck out your character.

With nothing else to work towards, yes or no – would you get bored with the game?

No. Having all my guys in the best available gear would not make me bored with the game. What will make me bored with the game, and has has made me bored with the game previously, is the lack of new things to do with my characters. I want more quests/missions/stories (and big, sprawling, fully-decked out zones in which to experience them). Those things will keep me going indefinitely. Especially if there’s enough of it so that there’s some variety along the way for each new character.

As for the gear, I’ve crafted one piece of ascended armor. Took a huge financial hit acquiring the materials, and since i don’t farm or flip or have a blessed account with precursors dropping right and left, I’ll be recovering from that hit for months.

For one piece of armor, for one of my 19 characters. That was enough of that nonsense.

There is something to be said about over extending yourself. 19 characters and no money is not really a good position to claim the Ascended gear making process is nonsense.

Vayne.8563:

Have a great night. I won’t be responding again.

C’mon. We both know that, sooner or later, yes you will. In fact, the post following yours is a great example:

Tachenon.5270:

Stark.1350:

Alright, I’m going to ask everyone in this thread a very simple question.

Say ascended armor was made much easier to obtain. Say it only took a month to complete “challenging content” to fully deck out your character.

With nothing else to work towards, yes or no – would you get bored with the game?

No. Having all my guys in the best available gear would not make me bored with the game. What will make me bored with the game, and has has made me bored with the game previously, is the lack of new things to do with my characters. I want more quests/missions/stories (and big, sprawling, fully-decked out zones in which to experience them). Those things will keep me going indefinitely. Especially if there’s enough of it so that there’s some variety along the way for each new character.

Imagine it’s 2012. Guild Wars 2 was released a few months ago, but now the number of players is falling. ArenaNet is discussing it at their offices, and they ask: “Players are leaving! What should we do?”.

Stark’s reply would have been: “Players are leaving because they don’t have enough to grind! Let’s give them more stuff to grind for!”. That’s what we got in GW2: ascended gear and Fractals.

Tachenon’s reply would have been: “Players are leaving because they don’t have enough things to do! Let’s give them more stuff to do and more ways to do it!”. That’s what we got in the original Guild Wars: a brand new chapter, nearly as big as the original game, without new gear tiers but with more professions, maps, missions and skills.

ArenaNet said they will never do something like ascended gear again. They have not been adding much to Fractals. Meanwhile, the original Guild Wars was successful enough for ArenaNet to grow massively and be able to make Guild Wars 2.

I guess it’s easy to see which one was the right answer, and which one was the wrong one.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

Have a great night. I won’t be responding again.

C’mon. We both know that, sooner or later, yes you will. In fact, the post following yours is a great example:

Tachenon.5270:

Stark.1350:

Alright, I’m going to ask everyone in this thread a very simple question.

Say ascended armor was made much easier to obtain. Say it only took a month to complete “challenging content” to fully deck out your character.

With nothing else to work towards, yes or no – would you get bored with the game?

No. Having all my guys in the best available gear would not make me bored with the game. What will make me bored with the game, and has has made me bored with the game previously, is the lack of new things to do with my characters. I want more quests/missions/stories (and big, sprawling, fully-decked out zones in which to experience them). Those things will keep me going indefinitely. Especially if there’s enough of it so that there’s some variety along the way for each new character.

Imagine it’s 2012. Guild Wars 2 was released a few months ago, but now the number of players is falling. ArenaNet is discussing it at their offices, and they ask: “Players are leaving! What should we do?”.

Stark’s reply would have been: “Players are leaving because they don’t have enough to grind! Let’s give them more stuff to grind for!”. That’s what we got in GW2: ascended gear and Fractals.

Tachenon’s reply would have been: “Players are leaving because they don’t have enough things to do! Let’s give them more stuff to do and more ways to do it!”. That’s what we got in the original Guild Wars: a brand new chapter, nearly as big as the original game, without new gear tiers but with more professions, maps, missions and skills.

ArenaNet said they will never do something like ascended gear again. They have not been adding much to Fractals. Meanwhile, the original Guild Wars was successful enough for ArenaNet to grow massively and be able to make Guild Wars 2.

I guess it’s easy to see which one was the right answer, and which one was the wrong one.

This is a really fantastic example. I guess the only question I’d ask about it is what’s the speed at which Arena Net could have introduced enough new content to make a difference, compared with the speed at which they could have implemented ascended gear?

WhiteKnight.6759:

This is a really fantastic example. I guess the only question I’d ask about it is what’s the speed at which Arena Net could have introduced enough new content to make a difference, compared with the speed at which they could have implemented ascended gear?

Considering how three years after the release of Guild Wars they had already released Factions, which was nearly as big as the original game, plus another chapter in Nightfall, plus some other content such as the Bonus Mission Pack and Sorrow’s Furnace, plus one expansion, and had already began working on GW2…

If they wanted, they could have released far more than the couple new maps we have right now.

Test.8734:

WhiteKnight.6759:

This is a really fantastic example. I guess the only question I’d ask about it is what’s the speed at which Arena Net could have introduced enough new content to make a difference, compared with the speed at which they could have implemented ascended gear?

Considering how three years after the release of Guild Wars they had already released Factions, which was nearly as big as the original game, plus another chapter in Nightfall, plus some other content such as the Bonus Mission Pack and Sorrow’s Furnace, plus one expansion, and had already began working on GW2…

If they wanted, they could have released far more than the couple new maps we have right now.

Oh cool! I didn’t know that.

Test.8734:

I guess it’s easy to see which one was the right answer, and which one was the wrong one.

Right or Wrong, that’s the past and If that is indicative of Anet’s reflection on what they thought was a mistake, then we can assume they put much thought into there approach and are willing to fix them if they see fit, not if enough players complain. We know there pattern. It’s quite open to players feedback but it’s also inline with industry standards.

Because of that, I’m not going to second guess Colin when he explains Anet’s position on the effort needed to get stuff in this game and neither should anyone else. The statement in this thread is pretty definitive. If people want to be convincing, they can’t just tell Anet their definition of grind is wrong.

Maybe they change the process for Ascended, but I’m confident will won’t happen because it’s too grindy because they don’t think it is; it’s more likely they will change it in conjunction with the game development if they do decide to do something (stupid) like gear gate content.

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

Blade Syphon.4325:

Because right now, yes, getting Ascended Armor is either a very expensive endeavor, or a very long grind of doing the same mundane tasks to get the materials needed to make the armor. Hiding behind the arugment of “But we have more then one way to get those materials” doesn’t work either, as like I said before those other methods are either just as repetitive (replacing World Boss grinding with Guild Mission grinding for Dragonite Ore, as an example) or so unrewarding (PvP Tracks), that there’s very little reason to actually do it.

OK but that’s inventing your own definition of what grinding is so of course you conclude you have to grind. The relevant one is from Anet’s perspective because they design the game. If your definition of grind includes multiple methods to be done to get the mats then no reasonable content can be devised to ensure you don’t think the game will be a grind for ascended gear. Literally, Anet would have to devise content for EVERY instance of need some portion of the mats you need to satisfy an extreme definition of no grinding. I think we can agree that would be insurmountable.

he clarified what he means by grind, but regardless of what he means, the “grind” that people often dislike involves repetive non interesting tasks that you have to do many many times to achieve your goals.

now if he means by the definition i just gave, masteries, and this expansion wont be grindy, then many will be happy.

But if he simply means it will either not be required for survival, or that there will be multiple repetive, uninteresting things you can do 1000s of times, they wont be that happy.

what people in this thread are trying to point out, is that regardless of what colin means when he says grindy, the game overall in fact feels very grindy to them. So much so that whenever they mention a lack of grind the players feel a strong disconect with how they expereince the game, and what the developers think is happening.

this bothers them a lot, not just because grind exists, but it makes it seem like the developers arent really on the same page as the players.

a grindy game where the developers are like we want people who put a lot of time in to feel rewarded, or we want you to be working on X item for 3 months. At least you are sure the developers intent. But when people hear them say gw2 isnt grindy, they are often like wait what? you mean you didnt do that on purpose? Im not supposed to be gathering gold or grinding cloth for my ascended armor for 30 days?

I agree too pretty much everything that phys.7689 posted in this thread, nicely done Sir!!
to ppl like Stark…. please read the post 2 more times before replying….

As for myself i like too ad only that the nonexistent endgame is what bothers me the most, after getting my Toons to 80 and full exo etc there isn’t rly anything to doo, just the option to repeat all the content that the game has too offer for all eternity. The Pvp in this game is so bad i can only compare it to Call of duty the skill lvl is so low,
at least in my eyes. For pvp i play games like: CS:GO, Tekken, LoL, SC2 trying to get into it, need more knowledge xD

As for games that had fun endgame in my opinion was Lineage 2, Perfect world…
Castle sieges, Territory wars had an impact on the world and ppl in it… War system and clan wars ohh… I miss the hunts for ppl at 3am etc… Fun memories ;] Of shaping the world in witch you’re playing in ;] and spending time ;]

munkiman.3068:

Vayne.8563:

Well-founded or not, it’s an opinion. I have full ascended items on three characters and I’ll never have to grind on those characters again. Not for gear.

I only take issue with this, when it comes to gear in the game, in general. If stat or content changes drastically enough, you might want to re-gear a toon or two. This is where i fall on the entire gear grind deal. I think they’d do well to get the system closer to gear having a base stat (or just a skin, mostly) and by swapping out the insignia you could change the stats. That’s pretty much the main reason i don’t bother all that much with ascended, it’s just too crazy if i want to change stats.

This is my biggest issue as well. In the past I contemplated getting ascended for at least my main but then I realized that I have three sets of gear just for that character alone, based on what kind of activity I want to participate in. That doesn’t even count the times I had to throw out an entire set and get something else due to gear changes Anet did like nerfing critical damage or introducing new stat combinations that turned out to be better for the role I crafted the previous set for.

Considering the time and money that goes into obtaining a full set of ascended gear, it should allow you to swap its stats just like a legendary does. Perhaps tie that ability to a small gold and/or material sink.

Currently, getting ascended is simply not worth it even though Arenanet intended it to be the traditional end-game goal that allegedly so many people were wishing for. It costs too much, locks you into one stat combination and is only marginally better than exotic gear.

/edit – typo

phys.7689:

what people in this thread are trying to point out, is that regardless of what colin means when he says grindy, the game overall in fact feels very grindy to them. So much so that whenever they mention a lack of grind the players feel a strong disconect with how they expereince the game, and what the developers think is happening.

this bothers them a lot, not just because grind exists, but it makes it seem like the developers arent really on the same page as the players.

a grindy game where the developers are like we want people who put a lot of time in to feel rewarded, or we want you to be working on X item for 3 months. At least you are sure the developers intent. But when people hear them say gw2 isnt grindy, they are often like wait what? you mean you didnt do that on purpose? Im not supposed to be gathering gold or grinding cloth for my ascended armor for 30 days?

Yes, exactly.

Colin’s definition of grind isn’t really relevant to what many people, myself included, experience. And it does create a strong sense of disconnect. This disconnect between Anet’s communication and PR speak, and what they do, versus the player experience they create.. well, it’s a long-going-on issue.

Ascended created to give a middle-level thing to go for, bridging the gap between exotics and legendaries – and everybody left wondering WHY, because the middle ground between ‘mandatory-easy’ and ‘verykittenygrindy-optional’ may in fact be ‘kittenygrindy-somewhatmandatory’ – but we’re left wondering why ‘kittenygrindy-somewhatmandatory’ is a good thing to even go for in the first place.

New Trait System – set up to encourage, they say, build experimentation and bla bla bla. Result: complete opposite, kitteny grindy.

New Player Experience: throw your veteran players under the bus with the newbies, cuz this experience could not not have been designed in a board room disconnected from reality.

Commander Tag Fiasco: Have a CDI. Almost implement something that completely misses the POINT of what people were talking about.

The sheer number of times Anet has misread things and created anti-player experiences, apparently by what they say, unknowingly, is weird. Sheer weird.

Face facts; they’re not dumb. Anet is not dumb, and therefore at least most of this stuff was very deliberate, and their PR speech is just a smokescreen or an attempt to make some very cynical design decisions palatable to the playerbase.

Frankly, we should be taking anything Anet says these days with a grain of salt.

10,800 silk isn’t grindy. Players only have to do it if they ‘choose’. There was only one choice made with that figure, and that was Anet’s. And 10,800 is inversely proportional to the respect they chose to have for a player’s time.

Loiterer.4235:

munkiman.3068:

Vayne.8563:

Well-founded or not, it’s an opinion. I have full ascended items on three characters and I’ll never have to grind on those characters again. Not for gear.

I only take issue with this, when it comes to gear in the game, in general. If stat or content changes drastically enough, you might want to re-gear a toon or two. This is where i fall on the entire gear grind deal. I think they’d do well to get the system closer to gear having a base stat (or just a skin, mostly) and by swapping out the insignia you could change the stats. That’s pretty much the main reason i don’t bother all that much with ascended, it’s just too crazy if i want to change stats.

This is my biggest issue as well. In the past I contemplated getting ascended for at least my main but then I realized that I have three sets of gear just for that character alone, based on what kind of activity I want to participate in. That doesn’t even count the times I had to throw out an entire set and get something else due to gear changes Anet did like nerfing critical damage or introducing new stat combinations that turned out to be better for the role I crafted the previous set for.

Considering the time and money that goes into obtaining a full set of ascended gear, it should allow you to swap its stats just like a legendary does. Perhaps tie that ability to a small gold and/or material sink.

Currently, getting ascended is simply not worth it even though Arenanet intended it to be the traditional end-game goal that allegedly so many people were wishing for. It costs too much, locks you into one stat combination and is only marginally better than exotic gear.

/edit – typo

Yeah, it’d be nice to just have the base gear and swap out insignias at least. It’s still pretty expensive to craft them, but once you do it, you could swap them freely.

Again, player experiences vary so it’s not sensible for Anet to sway to the whim of everyone. The game is not everything to everyone and it can’t be. The best they can do is set there target for the game experience and go for that. It’s ignorant when people wave that off as irrelevant because it doesn’t suit their desire or notions of what it should be. If their targets for the game don’t suit you, you have options available to you, including to not grind for gear that isn’t necessary to access content and compete in the game.

Goodness me, no grind philosophy… this game is actually worse than Aion, and that’s saying something. Just about everything you do turns into a grind before you know it. Better gear so you can survive higher level zones? Better looking gear? Trying to get more bag space either through crafting, buying or rewards? Trying to get some more colors? Trying to complete achievements? Trying to get the traits you need to improve your character? Grind, grind, more grind.

It’s ages ago that I was a new 80, back at the beginning of the game. I still remember with horror trying to survive Orr in my green gear. Trying being the operative word. No one but no one can tell me exotic gear is ‘just a skin’ and doesn’t contribute markedly to your survivability. And guess what… unless you’re willing to spend RL cash (which involves yet another grind, though out of game), you’re going to need to grind either crafting materials or gold.

Skins? A luxury, sure. But looking back at other games, I’d say by far most people are quite interested in having their characters looking good. And the devs definitely made it so that the more interesting looks require lots of dungeon running, RL cash or the achievement grind from hell.

Bag space… don’t get me started. It’s been gradual, but I’ve noticed a very big increase in the amount of junk that you just HAVE to keep in your inventory to complete e.g. Silverwastes and Dry Top or that accumulates there in no time if you actually play those areas. Not to mention the explosion of new stuff coming with seasonal and other events. Don’t get me wrong, I’m from closed beta, the characters I play have maxed bag space, but if even I keep having to run to the bank, I shudder to think what it’s like for newer players.

And achievements…well sure, no one is forcing you to do them. Except of course the people going “xxxx achievement points needed or you cannot do dungeon runs with us”. But if you happen to be a completionist (surprisingly many are) you’ll find yourself repeating the exact same things over and over. Which is uhm… well, a grind?

And traits… just ugh. The new system makes it so I don’t even WANT to experiment with traits on my newer 80s. Just grabbed the ones my build required, and kitten the rest.

Of course there are no grind free games. I’ve been around for over a decade in various MMO, and never found one yet. But this game is rather grindier than most. I think it’s really funny developers can actually come out and say it’s not…

Hylgeriak.8250:

sorudo.9054:

Zaklex.6308:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

nGumball.1283:

Please sir, find that game that has no grind and only has content and enjoy it for yourself.

Elder Scrolls
Mass Effect
Fallout
Dragon Age

It’s actually quite easy to make a game with no grind and only content. The thing is, you won’t be able to play it for a loooong time. All of the individual titles in those franchises I played like 100 to 400 hours each. Guild Wars 2 I played 2,500 hours.

And that’s what MMO devs want, to keep you playing. So yea, it is possible, they just won’t do it.

Note, those are all single player games…name an MMO that has no “grind” and I’ll agree you have a point. Otherwise it’s like talking apples and oranges.

P.S. – I put “grind” in quotes because one persons “grind” is another persons “fun”.

play guild wars (not GW2), no grind at all.
it’s all cosmetic and gear is easily maxed out, unlike GW2 where you get spit on the moment you wear rare armor instead of exotic.
GW has white armor as maxed gear, if that was the case in GW2 then you can talk about no grind in GW2, till then grind away.

Have you ever played GW1?! Man, grinding those achievements there for the HoM titles was a pure nightmare (sweet tooth, party animal, etc etc).

Glad, I can do all of the content in GW2 without ascended armor too, no no need to worry about equipment

i played GW from the start and yes, no grind.
what you’re talking about are titles, things you don’t need.
in GW2 you NEED exotic gear to even get invited in a team at all, you NEED rare and above gear to stand a chance in orr, you don’t NEED titles.

GW1 has no grind, GW2 has exactly the opposite.

Broom.2561:

It’s ages ago that I was a new 80, back at the beginning of the game. I still remember with horror trying to survive Orr in my green gear. Trying being the operative word. No one but no one can tell me exotic gear is ‘just a skin’ and doesn’t contribute markedly to your survivability. And guess what… unless you’re willing to spend RL cash (which involves yet another grind, though out of game), you’re going to need to grind either crafting materials or gold.

I can’t believe I just read someone complain about the cost of exotic gear ><.

I think at first glance the perception of grind in GW2 is high, but when you look at things in detail it really isn’t.

Ascended gear may have started grindy, but can now be acquired by doing whatever you want. And the same is true of the new traits system. You can either do the activity required to unlock it for free or you pay gold and skill points instead, which can be acquired in many ways. The trait system is not perfect, and Anet has already stated they are going to revise and improve it, but I think the core concept is a good one.

Anet’s no grind philosophy revolves around the idea that you shouldn’t have to repeat the same content in order to progress your character, at least in a combat sense. And for the most part they have stuck to that pretty well. They may have made a few mistakes here and there but overall GW2 is a pretty good non-grindy game, and is getting less and less grindy as time goes on.

So I for one feel confident that Anet will continue to improve their implementation of their no grind philosophy. That’s not to say there won’t be any grindy content, just that it won’t effect your characters ability to progress, at least in the sense of your combat capability.

Broom.2561:

Of course there are no grind free games. I’ve been around for over a decade in various MMO, and never found one yet. But this game is rather grindier than most. I think it’s really funny developers can actually come out and say it’s not…

It’s been my observation that MMO’s in general are by their nature going to include systems that entice repetition even if they do not outright enforce that repetition. Those systems all include some form of carrot. Many players will not repeat MMO content indefinitely without reward, so that’s what the game genre offers.

The disconnect comes because grind is ultimately a subjective experience. That’s why you see so many different takes on the word in these threads. Also, the word is evolving, as words used in popular culture often do. As words evolve, the “authorities” who publish the definitions are usually the last to adapt to the new usage.

A statement by ANet that they do not “make grindy games” is based on a definition they adopted which is narrow in scope in comparison to the evolving usage of the word. So, why do they do it? “Grind” has become a negative buzzword. Once you understand that, it’s easy to see that the statement is advertising, a selling point.

These discussions often devolve down to arguments about the definition in use. This is unfortunate. These arguments detract from the real issue, which is the negative experiences of players when they interact with certain systems over time. So, on one hand you have posters using the buzzword “grind” to try to shame the developer into giving them what they want. Meanwhile, other posters vigorously defend the developer over the definition.

Perhaps a better way for posters to phrase their complaints would be to say, “Doing content X for Y times to get reward Z takes too long and is boring as a result.” When you really look at the experience of grind, it devolves down to boredom that people are enduring in order to get a reward. Getting posters to stop using buzz words, or other posters to refrain from “Making people wrong on the internet” is a big ask, though.

Vayne.8563:

Edit: Oh and let’s not forget ecto farming on solo rits in the Underworld. We never ever called it grinding. We called it farming.

That is funny because I usually don’t mind some farming but I do hate the grind. Biggest difference for me in those words is that farming is doing something more specific to get an item.

Like killing a mob x times because I know it drops a mini version of itself, or doing a dungeon x times because I know it drops a cool weapon skin or killing a group of mobs a few times because it drops a material I need for my crafting. And as long as all these separate farms are generally not to bad (doable / viable) (I won’t complain about a few exceptions on this) I don’t mind it, I consider it farming, it always give that rush of ‘will it drop this time’. That mixed with more non-grind ways like complete a quest and get x, or that mob / boss drops y at first kill or complete that dungeon to get z and I consider it fun.

Now grinding is what I consider what happens in GW2. People are not farming for something they specifically want, no they just grind to get gold (a currency) or get items they do not want and then sell it to get gold, it does not matter that much to them what they do as long as it rewards them gold. That way they slowly see there gold number going up till the point where they have the money to buy what they want (never the rush of ‘will it drop’) and then they start over for the next item. That I consider a boring brainless grind and I hate it.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Broom.2561:

Of course there are no grind free games. I’ve been around for over a decade in various MMO, and never found one yet. But this game is rather grindier than most. I think it’s really funny developers can actually come out and say it’s not…

It’s been my observation that MMO’s in general are by their nature going to include systems that entice repetition even if they do not outright enforce that repetition. Those systems all include some form of carrot. Many players will not repeat MMO content indefinitely without reward, so that’s what the game genre offers.

The disconnect comes because grind is ultimately a subjective experience. That’s why you see so many different takes on the word in these threads. Also, the word is evolving, as words used in popular culture often do. As words evolve, the “authorities” who publish the definitions are usually the last to adapt to the new usage.

A statement by ANet that they do not “make grindy games” is based on a definition they adopted which is narrow in scope in comparison to the evolving usage of the word. So, why do they do it? “Grind” has become a negative buzzword. Once you understand that, it’s easy to see that the statement is advertising, a selling point.

These discussions often devolve down to arguments about the definition in use. This is unfortunate. These arguments detract from the real issue, which is the negative experiences of players when they interact with certain systems over time. So, on one hand you have posters using the buzzword “grind” to try to shame the developer into giving them what they want. Meanwhile, other posters vigorously defend the developer over the definition.

Perhaps a better way for posters to phrase their complaints would be to say, “Doing content X for Y times to get reward Z takes too long and is boring as a result.” When you really look at the experience of grind, it devolves down to boredom that people are enduring in order to get a reward. Getting posters to stop using buzz words, or other posters to refrain from “Making people wrong on the internet” is a big ask, though.

Good post, Indigo, and I agree with your points completely. However, I feel I should point out, in no way to try to discredit what you said, that this thread is talking about the no grind philosophy, so it would make sense to discuss the definitions of it.

However, I totally agree with your suggestion and feel this thread is not really achieving anything productive.

@Vayne

tigirius.9014:

Vayne.8563:

I grinded just as much in Guild Wars 1 as I did here, to make my skills more powerful. It wasn’t GEAR grind, but it was still grind to become more powerful.

Considering that in GW2 the materials to craft and the drops from bosses are all locked behind a pretty hefty and manipulated (with DR no less) RNG system that statement is a lie. Sorry, but you had a direct result for completing the tasks for obtaining the skills you wanted, there was no dice roll to see if you got it or got some other ability.

The two are not the same.

You see, this is why discussing the GW1 example is useless. You could try and tell me anything and I don’t know how is really worked in GW1.

What tigirius says here makes a huge difference.

I don’t mind being busy collecting those cosmetics in GW2 like for ever (different cosmetics all the time) as long as there is a more direct and viable way to get them. A more direct result also. (even if there is some RNG involved in it).

If the cosmetics work like tigirius explains the skills work, I would have been fine with it and then it does indeed look there is a big difference between GW1 and GW2. What dismisses your idea that it was already exactly like this in GW1 and so it is completely cash-shop unrelated.

Chicho Gosho.6507:

Brahmincorle.1264:

Mo Mo.1947:

Zenith.7301:

What part of not “optional” do people not get from fractal 50. 70 AR is not OPTIONAL.

Fractals are a kind of dungeon run. Dungeons are like the very definition of grinding. You run them over and over.

I’ve done dungeons maybe like 5-10 times in the history of the game release and I’m doing fine playing all the non-grind content with my exotic non-ascended gear.

You say 70 AR is not optional. But fractals level 50 is very optional, lol.

If you play dungeons or fractals you are CHOOSING to grind. You can always choose to play something non-grindy.

Thus: Grind not required.

By this logic WoW, SWTOR or TESO are also “no grind” games

Everything is on the same level in GW2, while in the other games raiding is the final point.

No, thats personal. High level raiding is only for a small group the final point in those game, for other it isn’t. Many people don’t care about that part. Much like many GW2 players don’t care to do fractals as the highest level.

Obtena.7952:

I can’t believe I just read someone complain about the cost of exotic gear ><.

Arguably, if the community as a whole had complained enough about exotic gear, maybe we would not have had ascended gear at all. And GW2 would have been considerably less grindy than it is today.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

aerial.7021:

Lheimroo.2947:

~

~

~

~

~

~

~

snip

There were two sets of armor that was massively hard to get and a boatload of rare weapon skins as well.

I tried to get a frog scepter for years in Guild Wars 1. Yes I could have bought it with gold, but I wanted to get it. I ran the dungeon bogroot growths until I couldn’t look at it any more. No frog scepter. Then even if you did get one as a drop, it might not have been for the stats you wanted anyway.

There were also minis that were so rare, even as rich as I got, I’d never have been able to afford them. The mini polar bear for example, if you wanted to buy it with gold, you’d have to farm endlessly for years.

And you’d have to buy it from another player, because there was no marketplace there. You’d have to stand around kamadan and negotiate to buy or sell anything.

So Guild Wars 2, which had the update model you keep saying is better, still had the same type of grind for cosmetics.

“I tried to get a frog scepter for years in Guild Wars 1. Yes I could have bought it with gold, but I wanted to get it. I ran the dungeon bogroot growths until I couldn’t look at it any more. No frog scepter.”

Wait, so you could get it without gold but by directly working for it. Well if they could do that in GW2 I would already be very happy. And then it would be in line with GW1 as well. It sounds like the drop-rate was a little to low (it should be viable to get it) but again I can’t say much about it as I did not play it a lot. Maybe the scepter was equal to the GW2 legendary, I don’t know?

Maybe GW1 had 1 extremely rare (legendary) version of everything (every weapons, 1 armor set and one mini) while the rest was doable. Without knowing that sort of things I sadly can’t really say much about it.

What surprises me is this part: “Yes I could have bought it with gold, but I wanted to get it.” so then you should perfectly understand why I say I don’t want the gold grind but why I want to directly work towards it.

When I say I could have bought it with gold it was a lot of gold. I’d have had to grind/farm the gold to get the gold to buy it. Afterwhich Id’ have spent all my gold. It’s EXACTLY like this game in that way. Same deal.

With ascended stuff you can farm the gold to buy the components to craft it with no waiting. In that game, I’d have had to farm the gold to buy the scepter and bankrupt myself in the process and then start all over.

The fact is, the thing you’re saying would make some sort of difference, didn’t make that sort of difference in Guild Wars 1.

Only you completely ignore the fact that you could directly work towards those items as well what makes it completely different in this game.

Also you ignore the idea / question if there where only a few extremely hard to get / grindy things while the rest was maybe all more viable and less grindy to get. The fact that you do makes me wonder if that is the case what would indeed make that on part with the legendaries.

If only the legendaries would be like this I would be oke with it, but the problem is that it’s the case for most of the cosmetics in GW2 so it still seems to be very different.

The point is I worked for that other thing for years and didn’t get it due to RNG. And somehow you think that’s better?

Buying it was an option but it was just too much money to spend. There were other things I wanted more.

The point is, that game wasn’t so different from this game, but you keep saying if this game was more like that, making money off expansions it would be different.

It’s not really. Not in the sense you’re claiming it would be.

What I say is that it would or well could (As we don’t life in that parallel universe we never know for sure) be better in the way that it would allow for direct options to work for items others then gold. Only the viable /doable part might be missing but then the question is for how many of the items that was the case in GW1.

You say it’s almost the same because you never got that item and it was very expensive to get with gold. But my biggest problem is that the only viable option, or really the only option for many items is the gold grind way. Not if it’s very hard do get an item.

You consider that a minor thing but it is the one thing I talk about. “Not in the sense you’re claiming it would be.” so yeah exactly in the sense I claim it to be.

Maybe with the exception of ‘viable’ but again I don’t know for how many items in GW1 that holds true.

Obtena.7952:

Test.8734:

Obtena.7952:

Frankly, this topic should be locked:

1. Anet replied to the concern
2. I think everyone has covered both sides of the topic thoroughly

Not much left. The only reason anyone would want to have it left open is because they are campaigning.

To be honest, the amount of posts help. The circular discussions don’t do anything, but it’s different for ArenaNet to see, “Look, there are 4 THOUSAND posts complaining about traits!” than “Look, there are 8 posts talking about how Defiance sucks”.

Just see Vayne’s post a bit above mine – he claims that he knew a lot of people felt they didn’t have anything do to at max level because a lot of people were complaining on the forum about it. If we see a lot of people complaining about grind on the forum (and better to do that in a single topic than have dozen topics about the same thing), maybe ArenaNet will do something about it.

Spamming posts does not help. Just because a thread has an overwhelming number of posts does not indicate it’s more of an issue to players than one that does not. The fact that ANet has replied with their position on this is pretty much a /thread right there.

Nonsense. Anet explained what types of grind they tried to prevent with their ‘no grind philosophy’. What is great information but then it’s also great if players say how they feel about that. What other types of grind they might find just as bad or even worse and so on. And even multiple pages in I see some good and new comments being added. The simple fact that you want it closed also says a lot about the quality of the thread.

You probably would not care about it if you did feel your idea’s where well represented in this tread.

If you dislike it so much just go to another thread in stead coming here just to suggest to close / censure it.

Obtena.7952:

Yes, that’s my point … you got their attention, they responded. More posts doesn’t change the outcome. The only reason this thread persists is because of campaigning.

You know what is really not adding to this thread is making it longer. These sorts of post.

Anyway, define ‘campaigning’ in this context.

I already said why that post does not mean the thread has ended. Not even close, if anything it was good information to start the second part of the discussion.

Vayne.8563:

The combination of what people were saying on the forums at that time and people not logging in makes it hard to assume anything else though…and it’s a good bet that at least part of those people, including both my sons, left after they got max level gear. They were simply more used to WOW and without being told what to do, they found the game boring.

Orrrrr people did find the game boring because in games like WoW they would then started to hunt down cosmetics. But also this was not really an option other then grinding gold. You know, to come back to the topic.

I can tell you I had this for a while. Just standing in LA, chatting with the guild but nothing to do. There was plenty to do (PS, GW2 crafts, grinding gold) but not what I liked. Usually at that point I would have started to hunt down mini’s, but in GW2 that was grinding gold what I did not like. Meaning that end-game I like was not here for me.

Eventually they came with guild-missions and I started to do more WvW and that where the things that kept me going, but if WvW or the guild-missions weren’t your thing eater then I can understand people getting bored and leaving.

I don’t say this is true for most of the people who left back then but it’s a just as viable option as not having the hard to get BiS gear.

Test.8734:

WhiteKnight.6759:

This is a really fantastic example. I guess the only question I’d ask about it is what’s the speed at which Arena Net could have introduced enough new content to make a difference, compared with the speed at which they could have implemented ascended gear?

Considering how three years after the release of Guild Wars they had already released Factions, which was nearly as big as the original game, plus another chapter in Nightfall, plus some other content such as the Bonus Mission Pack and Sorrow’s Furnace, plus one expansion, and had already began working on GW2…

If they wanted, they could have released far more than the couple new maps we have right now.

Yeah agreed. It all depends where you put your focus. It’s not like Anet has been sitting still. All those LS stuff many people might not consider as real content does take a lot of work to make. Al them mini instances, all the dialogs that had to be recorded and so on. Their focus was the LS approach, it being funded with the cash-shop. So that is what we got.

If they would have focused on expansions and used that to fund the game we would have seen far less LS but we could have gotten the first expansion after 1 to 1,5 year and another one a year later and we would now then be playing in the second expansion waiting for the third to be released.

The HoT introduction could have been the introduction of the third expansion. It’s the approach I would have preferred also because it would have giving more reason to put things in-game we now see in the cash-shop. Instruments could have been put into the game as fun game-play that could keep you playing for a long time for example in the form of a musicians craft.

Most of the hairstyles could have been added with the first expansion where we got a barber in-game and the second expansion would have added some more hairstyles. They earned there money, we had a more fun (likely less grindy) game.

Test.8734:

Obtena.7952:

I can’t believe I just read someone complain about the cost of exotic gear ><.

Arguably, if the community as a whole had complained enough about exotic gear, maybe we would not have had ascended gear at all. And GW2 would have been considerably less grindy than it is today.

Yeah, I don’t buy that for a second. There were complaints about how grindy the Temple Armor was to acquire. In response we got Karma consumables added to the Daily Achievement system, making it possible to earn enough Karma within two months of doing the Daily . . . excluding any other Karma gain, of course.

The first introduction of Ascended items was, also, not too grindy. From what I understand, the rings would/do drop rather like candy in Fractals. The back pieces required trips into Fractals and one stack of a T6 Fine material; not too bad all said.

Then came the Laurel-related Ascended necklaces. One month of Daily would earn you one of them (making them less grindy than the Temple Armor at that time).

Guild Missions introduced Ascended accessories you could earn either through Laurels and Ectoplasm (40 Laurels, 50 Ectoplasm), or Gold and Commendations (5 Gold and 12 Commendations). 12 Commendations can, in theory, be done in two weeks with a guild having access and completing the cap for all items. Not terribly grindy.

It wasn’t until the Weapons/Armor introduction people considered it grindy and there was a point to the complaints. First, the relevant crafting had to go to 500 . . . which was not cheap until the recent glut of snowflakes. Second, it required a lot of components from a variety of activities (or just from a weekend of stomping around in WvW). Armor with the Damask requirement is where a lot of the “grind” happens.

I use quotes there because I recall the absolute glut of silk which happened where the Bazaar of the Four Winds had to raise the price of the silk merchant for the RNG boxes because there was so much in play. I had, myself, roughly 2,000 Silk at the time of the first one. And notably this was the only resource out of its tier which had that much hanging around.

I suspect the price in components of Ascended Armor and Weapons was somewhat related to watching people turn in components to the vendors during those two events. And as such, that is what calibrated the cost.

Obtena.7952:

Test.8734:

I guess it’s easy to see which one was the right answer, and which one was the wrong one.

The statement in this thread is pretty definitive. If people want to be convincing, they can’t just tell Anet their definition of grind is wrong.

Nobody really is. They are just saying they still find the game grindy because [reasons] .

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

The combination of what people were saying on the forums at that time and people not logging in makes it hard to assume anything else though…and it’s a good bet that at least part of those people, including both my sons, left after they got max level gear. They were simply more used to WOW and without being told what to do, they found the game boring.

Orrrrr people did find the game boring because in games like WoW they would then started to hunt down cosmetics. But also this was not really an option other then grinding gold. You know, to come back to the topic.

So when i play PvP to get ontop of the ladderboard spots , while i get some gold from te reward tracks , i grind ?

When i am using my Elementalist on the Piken Square and try to help my server (we dont have nightcappers , its all lies!) and i get gold , then i grind ?

When i got the rings + earings from the Guild Missions + Fractals and the amulet from the Lurel i grind ?

When i am not foolish enought to waste a lot of gold for 7-9 increase stats. in each 6-piece set gear ( 36 more stats in Ferocity + 36 Precision + 36 Streagh) , i grind ?

Edit: They learned their lesson , not to hear the vocal minority and they are willing to take the blame , like ‘’real man’’ about that Ascended , that was their own decision and mistake and not of the vocal community that demanded it at the first place ….

Rin.1046:

IndigoSundown.5419:

- snip -

Good post, Indigo, and I agree with your points completely. However, I feel I should point out, in no way to try to discredit what you said, that this thread is talking about the no grind philosophy, so it would make sense to discuss the definitions of it.

However, I totally agree with your suggestion and feel this thread is not really achieving anything productive.

Thanks for your comments. I agree that once a word is used in a discussion, there is going to be argument if the word means different things to different people. However, the definition-lawyering on both sides is detracting from the intent of the thread. I very much doubt that the OP, and many other of the, “Too grindy” posters care about an exact definition of ‘grind.’ I believe their intent was to bring the developer’s attention to their experience. There is, perhaps, still some minor value in the thread as players give examples of repetitive play that they find boring, but I’ll agree that the kittening contest over what the word means has no value inherently.

And today I learned that players don’t want to work towards anything and have everything handed to them on silver platter, grind or no grind.

Rin.1046:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Broom.2561:

Of course there are no grind free games. I’ve been around for over a decade in various MMO, and never found one yet. But this game is rather grindier than most. I think it’s really funny developers can actually come out and say it’s not…

It’s been my observation that MMO’s in general are by their nature going to include systems that entice repetition even if they do not outright enforce that repetition. Those systems all include some form of carrot. Many players will not repeat MMO content indefinitely without reward, so that’s what the game genre offers.

The disconnect comes because grind is ultimately a subjective experience. That’s why you see so many different takes on the word in these threads. Also, the word is evolving, as words used in popular culture often do. As words evolve, the “authorities” who publish the definitions are usually the last to adapt to the new usage.

A statement by ANet that they do not “make grindy games” is based on a definition they adopted which is narrow in scope in comparison to the evolving usage of the word. So, why do they do it? “Grind” has become a negative buzzword. Once you understand that, it’s easy to see that the statement is advertising, a selling point.

These discussions often devolve down to arguments about the definition in use. This is unfortunate. These arguments detract from the real issue, which is the negative experiences of players when they interact with certain systems over time. So, on one hand you have posters using the buzzword “grind” to try to shame the developer into giving them what they want. Meanwhile, other posters vigorously defend the developer over the definition.

Perhaps a better way for posters to phrase their complaints would be to say, “Doing content X for Y times to get reward Z takes too long and is boring as a result.” When you really look at the experience of grind, it devolves down to boredom that people are enduring in order to get a reward. Getting posters to stop using buzz words, or other posters to refrain from “Making people wrong on the internet” is a big ask, though.

Good post, Indigo, and I agree with your points completely. However, I feel I should point out, in no way to try to discredit what you said, that this thread is talking about the no grind philosophy, so it would make sense to discuss the definitions of it.

However, I totally agree with your suggestion and feel this thread is not really achieving anything productive.

I do feel the thread is really productive. Some really interesting things have been said. It’s true that there are also side discussions going on like definitions and stuff. The problem is that if somebody tries to dismiss your complain about grind (oow and I do explain the grind I talk about.. it’s not just a buss word) by saying your definition of grind is wrong and so basically your complain is wrong what are you supposed to do? You ignore him? I then tell him why it’s irrelevant but then you do have a discussion going on that is not relevant or helpful for the topic.

But maybe it’s a good idea as indeed everybody would simply talk about there complains, tell what they find grindy and why. Simply ignore the useless comments about something not being grindy because definition / because not required and so on. The thread has debugged the ‘wrong definition’ argument enough times by now I think.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

The combination of what people were saying on the forums at that time and people not logging in makes it hard to assume anything else though…and it’s a good bet that at least part of those people, including both my sons, left after they got max level gear. They were simply more used to WOW and without being told what to do, they found the game boring.

Orrrrr people did find the game boring because in games like WoW they would then started to hunt down cosmetics. But also this was not really an option other then grinding gold. You know, to come back to the topic.

So when i play PvP to get ontop of the ladderboard spots , while i get some gold from te reward tracks , i grind ?

When i am using my Elementalist on the Piken Square and try to help my server (we dont have nightcappers , its all lies!) and i get gold , then i grind ?

When i got the rings + earings from the Guild Missions + Fractals and the amulet from the Lurel i grind ?

When i am not foolish enought to waste a lot of gold for 7-9 increase stats. in each 6-piece set gear ( 36 more stats in Ferocity + 36 Precision + 36 Streagh) , i grind ?

Edit: They learned their lesson , not to hear the vocal minority and they are willing to take the blame , like ‘’real man’’ about that Ascended , that was their own decision and mistake and not of the vocal community that demanded it at the first place ….

No, you grind when you are going out to grind gold to buy the items you like because doing the normal activities (you are now talking about) do not make you the money you need.

When I was upgrading a PikenSquare keep at night it cost me money, did not make me money. Basically all the money I really earn to buy a cosmetics once in a while is from guild-missions but that will never get me the skins I like to get. And I am willing to play for the items but not grind gold for them.

Do you really make the money you need to buy all the cosmetics you need? Well maybe you do depending on how much you like cosmetics but I can tell you I don’t even get close to the money I would need and so the only option left would be grinding. (What I do not do)

Geneaux.9547:

And today I learned that players don’t want to work towards anything and have everything handed to them on silver platter, grind or no grind.

So asking for items being rewarmed more in ways like for example the Liadri way and simply other ways then a brainless grind is the same as asking for getting everything handed out to them?

Because what I get from the topic is that people simply want to have other, more fun and also more challenging ways to get items. I would in fact hate it if Anet would put in a vendor that gave all items out for free. Hope Anet interpreted the thread like I did and not like you did.

Test.8734:

Obtena.7952:

Frankly, this topic should be locked:

1. Anet replied to the concern
2. I think everyone has covered both sides of the topic thoroughly

Not much left. The only reason anyone would want to have it left open is because they are campaigning.

To be honest, the amount of posts help. The circular discussions don’t do anything, but it’s different for ArenaNet to see, “Look, there are 4 THOUSAND posts complaining about traits!” than “Look, there are 8 posts talking about how Defiance sucks”.

Just see Vayne’s post a bit above mine – he claims that he knew a lot of people felt they didn’t have anything do to at max level because a lot of people were complaining on the forum about it. If we see a lot of people complaining about grind on the forum (and better to do that in a single topic than have dozen topics about the same thing), maybe ArenaNet will do something about it.

People know they can look at all the posts in general forums by the tabs at top right?

Devata.6589:

Do you really make the money you need to buy all the cosmetics you need? Well maybe you do depending on how much you like cosmetics but I can tell you I don’t even get close to the money I would need and so the only option left would be grinding. (What I do not do)

Do you need them or do you want them?

I mean, I don’t make nearly enough money to afford Dusk. But then, I don’t need Dusk.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

Do you really make the money you need to buy all the cosmetics you need? Well maybe you do depending on how much you like cosmetics but I can tell you I don’t even get close to the money I would need and so the only option left would be grinding. (What I do not do)

Do you need them or do you want them?

I mean, I don’t make nearly enough money to afford Dusk. But then, I don’t need Dusk.

It’s not relevant. I like to collect them, to hunt for them and if I was to do that grind is the only option. That’s the problem.

I do not need them just as much as I do not need BiS gear in other so called grindy games like WoW.

Devata.6589:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

Do you really make the money you need to buy all the cosmetics you need? Well maybe you do depending on how much you like cosmetics but I can tell you I don’t even get close to the money I would need and so the only option left would be grinding. (What I do not do)

Do you need them or do you want them?

I mean, I don’t make nearly enough money to afford Dusk. But then, I don’t need Dusk.

It’s not relevant. I like to collect them, to hunt for them and if I was to do that grind is the only options. That’s the problem.

I do not need them just as much as I do not need BiS gear in other so called grindy games like WoW.

Well, to be honest . . . you don’t. Even so far back as EverQuest I got along fine without BiS. Mostly because I could never get BiS thanks to random chance plus DKP system equals “no loot for you, come back next week”.

You might like to have BiS for what you’re doing. Other people might like you to push to the absolute best numerical point you can have. But, really, there’s a nice big gulf of leeway which is enough to get by without being “carried”.