Guild Wars 2

You need to tone down the damage overall , or buff the defense to light armor classes a bit, conditions are way over the limit at the moment specially with the new runes like confusion stacking to all the enemies around in 3 seconds 25 stacks ( Engi), need more remove all condition skills and less heals.

Thieves been able to almost 2hit a person in a small zerg and disappearing to heal and cure all conditions and keep doing it over and over until he actually misclicks something or gets 15 people aeoing all over the place, almost the same with mesmers.

Warriors are impossible to catch if they decide to escape and they heal way too much.

PvE is too easy , needs to be little bit more challenging.

WvW needs a huge balance in classes, cant determinate the balance just by judging spvp.

Just helped Faint find his replacement pet Grr and I noticed something that most people probably wouldn’t. When he’s fighting enemies he has some sortof explosion that’s pretty big that knocks back enemies when they hit him.

Now either this is an engineer mine (with a much larger explosion zone) or the racial skill similar to the toolbelt version of the Charr shrapnel mine with a much more effective explosion but it brought up a question.

Will you be improving some of the smaller racial skills damage ratios and effectiveness to further add to the choices to improve overall build diversity? Some of these skills would be really nice to be able to use effectively if A: they simply did the proper amount of damage B: their usefulness in the toolbelt was improved for engineers!

tigirius.9014:

Just helped midnight find his replacement pet Grr and I noticed something that most people probably wouldn’t. When he’s fighting enemies he has some sortof explosion that’s pretty big that knocks back enemies when they hit him.

Now either this is an engineer mine (with a much larger explosion zone) or the racial skill similar to the toolbelt version of the Charr shrapnel mine with a much more effective explosion but it brought up a question.

Will you be improving some of the smaller racial skills damage ratios and effectiveness to further add to the choices to improve overall build diversity? Some of these skills would be really nice to be able to use effectively if A: they simply did the proper amount of damage B: their usefulness in the toolbelt was improved for engineers!

That may have been the Shrapnel Mine toolbelt version known as Booby Trap, if he’s an Engineer. Puts an explosive on yourself that goes off when you get hit by melee. The Battle Roar toolkit version, Invigorating Roar, is quite nice too, removing vulnerability and weakness while giving a 10 second vigor. Even Hidden Pistol’s toolkit version, Hidden Pistols is pretty awesome, as it’s the Charr Engineer’s version of the Thief’s Unload (albeit less powerful).

It’s rather odd how the regular Charr racial skills suck, but their toolkit versions are amazing.

Human racial skills also all suck.

Brutaly.6257:

Great coommunications

Symbols for Guardians needs to be adressed. To trait them its 55 Points in two different trees.

Considering its one symbol per weapons (4 symbols) the investment is just to heavy to even bother using more than one symbol trait.

Merge all symbol traits in honor and move empowering might and elusive Power to zeal.

Or move all symbols to the staff and:

Give the healing effect and aoe damage of the orb to the third step of the hammer chain
Give empower to mace
Give line of warding to GS

I would prefer all symbols on the staff which also would give Guardians a valid ranged damage option in wvw. Someything we actually lack compared to the other professions in the game. And no scepter is only valid for duels/small groups and pve.

And for the hundred time, fix the broken buff you get from symbol of swiftness.

If you haven’t gotten the hint yet Devs… Zeal Line.

for the 100th time

RyuDragnier.9476:

That may have been the Shrapnel Mine toolbelt version known as Booby Trap, if he’s an Engineer. Puts an explosive on yourself that goes off when you get hit by melee. The Battle Roar toolkit version, Invigorating Roar, is quite nice too, removing vulnerability and weakness while giving a 10 second vigor. Even Hidden Pistol’s toolkit version, Hidden Pistols is pretty awesome, as it’s the Charr Engineer’s version of the Thief’s Unload (albeit less powerful).

It’s rather odd how the regular Charr racial skills suck, but their toolkit versions are amazing.

Very interesting. I’ll have to review what my Sylvari Engi has access to. Unfortunately it’d be rather situational anyway as I already run FT/RBoot and either EG or recently ToolKit.

Racial toolbelt skills would probably not sway me out of using Sylvari for anything Medium Armor though, unless that race had cultural armor that didn’t look like a full trenchcoat. :p Tailcoats (like Sylvari T2 and T3) are fine and blend in to the character model anyway.

This looks great— particularly happy with the engie toolbelt/ turret changes, as previously, the toolbelt didn’t feel like much of a perk to being an engineer.

Can I suggest, while you’re focusing on improving existing content, that you take a look at fixing some of the armours, graphically?

Many of them don’t fit Charr well at all, particularly with the shoulderpieces floating in mid-air above the torso piece. The clearest example of this would be Medium SE armour.

SE Medium headpieces also need a graphical cleanup on the mouth area.

It’s just very restrictive for me as a Medium-wearing Charr. Not many armours fit as they should :< SE armour was the first exotic set I got for myself, looking forward to it and saving up the tokens— and it was a let-down that it had all these textural/ clipping problems.

Burnfall.9573:

Fletch.3572:

I was super hoping for the perma store ranger pet option. This just isn’t going to happen is it lol.

Other than that all looks good, warriors have amazing dps, and now will be buffed up to amazing support, wondering why I should log on to anything else =D

I was hoping the same for our suicidal pet mechanics.

+1 for both of you. Both the Pet AI and the lack of a Perma-Store made me eventually decide to delete the Ranger I was working on (despite the humor/fun in having an Asura Ranger, with just about every pet larger than he was). Watching the Risen one-shot my pets in ‘A Light in the Darkness’ sealed his fate pretty fast after that.

I have a ton of respect for the Ranger players though; I found it way too restrictive to micro-manage a buggy follower (I wasn’t a big Drones fan in Eve either, for the same reason). We’ve have/had a few running around in guild though, and its still fun watching the class work; just not my ’cuppa.

Jon, you’re one of the coolest persons I have ever heard of. You give out insight and a taste of what is to come (edit: very informative is what I mean to say)!

Will be very interesting next patch if a lot of this gets in it.
Just saying. Kittens kittens kittens!

I hope that you have really tested the sickem system. A whole class depends on its proper implementation.
On the other hand, rebuild p/p …upload is slow and other shots are not used often.

Best,

Haltair

Sungak Alkandenes.1369:

+1 for both of you. Both the Pet AI and the lack of a Perma-Store made me eventually decide to delete the Ranger I was working on (despite the humor/fun in having an Asura Ranger, with just about every pet larger than he was). Watching the Risen one-shot my pets in ‘A Light in the Darkness’ sealed his fate pretty fast after that.

I have a ton of respect for the Ranger players though; I found it way too restrictive to micro-manage a buggy follower (I wasn’t a big Drones fan in Eve either, for the same reason). We’ve have/had a few running around in guild though, and its still fun watching the class work; just not my ’cuppa.

Just do what I do…run a trap build. Your conditions do the majority of your damage, with the pet just serving some extra oomph. I’ve never really needed to micromanage my pet because I just treat it as some extra DPS that’s unreliable…other than the devourer and spider pets, which actually seem to do their jobs.

What happens to the useless traits like Elementalist’s Burning Precision? It has a 30% chance, ON A CRITICAL, to do a 1 second burn. It seems like this useless trait will be even more useless with the duration conditions stacking change.

I’m sure in 11 pages someone has asked this, but I’m not going to read 11 pages :p

“We’re working on the staff in an effort to make it a stronger support weapon…”

Should I be nervous that the unsaid implication here is that we want the staff to ‘mostly’ be support, and in an effort to beef it’s support, for those of us who like to use the staff as our sole weapon (yes, everything else does more damage than a staff, I don’t care), you will reduce what damage it does do?

It’s always the things that aren’t written that kill.

For now I’ll resist placing my opinions of what changed and what should be changed. All I can say is I look forward to the thief mainhand pistol change – I’ve been wanting to play P/P Thief since this game started, but it has faced the fact of it being the only weapon combo with NO access to weapon based mobility, and on top of that, NO access to stealth. And in return for giving those up, you gain a below average confused weapon set. There have been a million posts of people saying what they think it should be… but maybe we’ll get to see what Anet thinks it should be. Don’t think they can make it any worse. :p

Mesmer,
its nice to hear that at least mesmer can play some role, in team oriented, organized competitive matches vs same.. instead of just being slot bot, with portal, veil, tw.. we will see after patch anyway..

why i said this, cuz meta prove it. and some pov details..
Mesmer not the better selections compare to other class, as tanker, controller, striker/ranged dps-burst/spiker, supporter etc.. yes while we can do hybrid roles, however at least it ll not still effective in overall.. with compare to other classes.. (i am talking about vs matches, in fair deal) as gvg, or we can say team oriented, competitive matches exp: 12,15,20,25,30 vs same numbers in fair environment..

• Tool – Tips fixing, appreciate +1
  Some examples,
• DPS – Phantasm Die Randomly before they hit their first attack..
  - When i do some co-efficents of skills, i see that phantsams have some high co-efficient where most damage come from.. compare to other classes and mesmers other skills, while has lower dps co-efficient/time on #1 attacks. however when it comes use phantasm to fight with where has fields, random attacks, in wvw, (gvg) if it die before hit it doesnt sound me to fair (where has those skills has some cooldowns, and has a slot as other skills) i dont mean use on blind, aegis etc.. i mean roll-dice effect.. and why should i use iZerker on just 1 enemy.. where has most classs aeo, while we lack..
  - Spatial Surge (if ~20times auto attack in 30sec) if time=~1.50
  *0.31×3=0.93co-efficient 0.62co-efficient/time
  *0.27×3=0.81 [0.54dps]
  *0.22×3=0.66 [0.44dps]
  *0.18×3=0.54 [0.36dps]
  DPS: 0.36to………….0.62(single target)to…………….1.86(if targetted multiple to 3)
  Exp: or if tooltips are correct of Thiefs Short Bow we can say ~-%10to………….+%172 Thief can do more DPS (where thief can always hit 3 targets where mesmer is restricted of line can do multiple hits)

• Burst: Maybe burst kittenter mesmers some better burst ers than other classes.. Where Blurred frenzy nerfed to evade that, u cant use it as an offensive in competitive guild fights.. etc.. etc..

• Controller: Eathshaker vs Mesmer? War 10sec cd + damage + 1to 3 sec stun + blast
  Mes Diversion 45sec cd, for aoe Stun ? Illusion Grandmaster Trait + Domination Grandmaster Trait with still %50 chance.. squishy mesmer, clones can reach ? it was simple example.. etc.. etc..

• Support: MoConcentration: at least getting better.. if 2sec to aeo close burst 600 range *2, with 2.45sec casting time(where we see of these casting times on op skills) better to go guardian ``stand your ground`` or others.. Result +1Stability -5sec cd +5Retal +NoCasting Instant +Heavyarmored -LowerHP +More can focus on support with other skills aswell … how to balance MoC.. easy math put another buff increase cd +5 and give another improvement cuz of lacking 2.45 sec Casting time.. so we can see its fair/selectable..

in conclusion, they are some simple examples, i would like to remind, all.. more.. already mentioned.. imo if mesmer wanna get a role, in team oriented groups, as gvg, expect that being slot bot.. there should be have something better at mesmer than other classes.. Hope we wont lost more mesmers..

ThiBash.5634:

The main issue with the staff is its ability to land its spells. Supportwise, it’s in a pretty good place already. Minor things like making Lava Font deal its damage at the START of the second instead of at the END, making projectiles travel faster and maybe a small buff to non-fire auto attack damage would adress most of this.

That’s part of the problem. It’s compounded by a lack of weapon swapping. Even if the staff was a perfect support weapon, if it can’t be used to inflict damage then it’s never going to be useful in 5v5 PvP. You can’t support your teammates with your staff then swap to d/d or s/f when fighting in a one vs one situation. You’re stuck with the staff. That means the staff must be able to cover everything another class can squeeze out of two weapon sets.

Xovian.8572:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Follow the trend. Want more?

Sure, you didnt name one core ability, or at least abilities that are not shared by ALL.
Apples and oranges.

To be fair, Necros don’t get stability.

lolololololol

Why does tab targeting give players and clones the same priority O.o?

Theres really no reason to, only the absolute newest players will mistake a clone for a mesmer.
This would make it easier to faceroll new players, but doesnt actually change anything when not facerolling >_<.

Oh well, it doesnt affect me much, i guess.

Reason i said share the venom share builds condition damage is only because they have 3 or few charges anyway, so its not gonna kill anything

Good but we need significantly more of these updates, last proper one was back in June and this stuff is a lot more important than the ‘content’ updates being put out more frequently. They’re different teams and some of this stuff, like getting rid of RNG for Engi skills, has been suggested/discussed for ages.

Quality of gameplay>new things of hit or miss value.

Avatara.1042:

What happens to the useless traits like Elementalist’s Burning Precision? It has a 30% chance, ON A CRITICAL, to do a 1 second burn. It seems like this useless trait will be even more useless with the duration conditions stacking change.

There is no doubt that some of the elementalist’s traits are completely worthless. I’m sure this can be said of all classes, but it’s very obvious with elementalist. The one you quoted is a shining example.

notebene.3190:

I’m sure in 11 pages someone has asked this, but I’m not going to read 11 pages :p

“We’re working on the staff in an effort to make it a stronger support weapon…”

Should I be nervous that the unsaid implication here is that we want the staff to ‘mostly’ be support, and in an effort to beef it’s support, for those of us who like to use the staff as our sole weapon (yes, everything else does more damage than a staff, I don’t care), you will reduce what damage it does do?

It’s always the things that aren’t written that kill.

You aren’t alone. I’ve already voiced my concern. Sure, the staff can be used as a support skill set. But I use mine solely as an aoe damage and aoe cc skill set. If they nerf this aspect of it in an effort to push it as the support skill set I’ll retire my eleementalist. And that would be a shame, considering I’ve already retired my ranger because of the changes to longbow.

raahk.2786:

Oh boy, so at best a shadow step and the remnants of a mana system that was long since scrapped are our core mechanics, and not the very thing that allows thieves to last longer than five seconds in a fight.

Funny, my thief survives just fine without stealth. You know what allows every single class in the game to last longer than five seconds? Dodging.

raahk.2786:

Saying stealth isn’t the thief’s core mechanic is like saying that the engineer’s core mechanic isn’t swapping through kits since they have toolbelt skills.

Stealth is optional. Kits are optional. Something cannot be optional and core at the same time. That’s not what core means. Stealth is optional, Initiative is not. Kits are optional, toolbelt skills are not. Shouts are optional, Adrenaline is not. Minions are optional, Life Force is not.

Doomdesire.9365:

All three are a core mechanic. Steal and initiative by itself isn’t enough.

Yes, they are.

Doomdesire.9365:

Roll a S/P or P/P thief and you will see, without stealth thieves are all but useless. While there are some builds such as jumper’s S/D and the D/D evade build, they simply aren’t viable outside of spvp.

This statement is completely false. I have an d/d evasion thief, and it’s more than viable in WvW and PvE.

Doomdesire.9365:

Not to mention that stealth has an entire trait line for thief. If that doesn’t prove it’s a core mechanic then nothing will.

Thieves have an entire trait line for stealth? As in every one of the three minor and twelve major traits deal with stealth? No, they don’t. Saying they do is no more accurate than saying warriors have an entire trait line dedicated to shouts, therefore shouts are a core mechanic for warriors.

raahk.2786:

No, it isn’t. Thieves don’t stealth just to use sneak attack. Stealthing is the ONLY survivalist method thieves have outside of blind spam, and that’s only doable with offhand pistol.

Stealth is the only survivalist method available to thieves, aside from blind via offhand pistol? So thieves don’t have access to the following…?
– healing skills
– dodging
– two traits that offer Vigor
– the Acrobatics trait line
– crowd control skills
– Blind via utility skills
– Weakness

raahk.2786:

A stealth-based thief will be completely crippled because a ranger has a single skill on their utility bar, and will then be left defenseless since he didn’t spec in to the acrobatics line and only has two dodges, with a maximum of four or five if using sword/dagger.

Yours might, mine won’t. If you can’t survive long enough for Reveal to wear off then you need to stop relying on stealth so you’ll learn to dodge, kite, use crowd control, and use terrain to your advantage. Or perhaps you need to stop running a one-trick-pony build and start running something a little more balanced? Either way, I can say with all certainty that stealth is NOT required for a thief’s survival.

Doomdesire.9365:

You haven’t explained why stealth isn’t a core mechanic yet. All you’ve done is say it isn’t and bring up an example that really doesn’t make sense. There are viable builds without snare removal for warriors. I don’t supposed you’ve ever seen a perplexity CC spamming warrior, have you?

We have, you’re just choosing not to acknowledge it. Because I can play my thief…well…without stealth, it CANNOT be core to the class. I can’t choose to not have Steal. I can’t choose to not have Initiative. I CAN choose to not have stealth. Therefore, it’s not core to the class.

Doomdesire.9365:

Stealth has an entire trait line for thieves. How is that not a core mechanic? There isn’t any entire trait line devoted to snare removal for warriors. The comparison doesn’t make sense.

By your reasoning, an “entire” trait line dedicated to Spirit Weapons means Spirit Weapons are a core mechanic for guardians. By your reasoning, an “entire” trait line dedicated to spirits means spirits are a core mechanic for rangers.

raahk.2786:

We have an entire trait line devoted to stealth, that isn’t an accurate or fair comparison in the least.

Which thief trait line has 3 minor traits and 12 major traits dedicated solely to stealth? None.

raahk.2786:

Meanwhile, I get low on health, use my heal that stealths me, and suddenly I’m revealed. No thinking, no anything, just hitting a button.

Because the heal itself doesn’t restore health, right? Just because YOU can’t survive without stealth doesn’t mean the class itself can’t survive without stealth. Try trading in some of your Berserker’s gear and using the other tools given to you before claiming your glass cannon build is too fragile to survive without stealth? If you rely upon stealth to survive then you’re using stealth as a crutch.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Just do what I do…run a trap build. Your conditions do the majority of your damage, with the pet just serving some extra oomph. I’ve never really needed to micromanage my pet because I just treat it as some extra DPS that’s unreliable…other than the devourer and spider pets, which actually seem to do their jobs.

I’ll think about it, but I’m not a true Altaholic and already have four characters I’m comfortable with (the two now in my sig, plus a Warrior-80 and Necro{leveling}). I like to keep the 5th slot open to both experiment with other classes (still need to try Mesmer, just gave up on Elementalist as my RSI wrists cannot keep up the pace) and view all Racial Personal Story steps.

I also like to explore more than most (JPs/SPs/Vistas in particular), and the pet is a hindrance there; Perma-Store would help a lot with that.

On the subject of Stealth and Reveal, I’d actually like to see ALL traps (and Engineer’s Mines) add Revealed when triggered by a Stealthed Thief.

I could jive with the mines, but I probably wouldn’t go with all traps.

Also, thieves should drop out of stealth when they try to backstab an aegis/block. C’mon now.

darkace.8925:

On the subject of Stealth and Reveal, I’d actually like to see ALL traps (and Engineer’s Mines) add Revealed when triggered by a Stealthed Thief.

Traps? I’d like to see other abilities do it too. I mean look at Lava Fountain for Elementalist, or the Marks for Necromancer. Thieves have more than enough abilities to close in on their target, hide, run, get full HP, get back in and continuing to stab for 5-7k each, so….ya, a little give for the classes that are all but a squishy sack of flesh would be peaceful.

One thing I think we would all really appreciate is the ability to save trait sets, like how we could save builds in GW1. It would make it so much easier to switch between builds and will encourage people to try out new builds. Additionally, I don’t think we should have to pay to change our traits. I think we should just be able to load a new trait set when we are out of combat.

Scoobaniec.9561:

Axe 2-5 skills are pathetic at best and theres no point to cast any of them, running axe offhand is just pathetic.

Greatsword:
-HB is a great skill in pve, howered its impossible to land pvp without cc.

Axe 5

pathetic

-HB is a great skill in pve, howered its impossible to land pvp without cc.

Jonathan (& team),

I’m happy to see that the combat log is getting an update. If it turns out to be effective, perhaps you can also implement the option to turn off damage numbers in game. With the number of players, the particle effects, and all my big crit numbers, I can hardly see what the foes are doing most of the time.

Hi Jonathan, while I don’t have any comments on specific parts of the patch preview, I would just like to say how happy I am to see this thread. In GW1, one of my favorite things was the notes for every set of skill changes, explaining the reasons behind them. I’ve missed this kind of communication in GW2, and while I won’t blame you for that (forum ragers, etc), I have to say I’m very relieved to see this happen. Thanks for the effort into this thread!

Edit: Corrected a typo.

Until we don’t have any “save trait and skill option” (template from Guild Wars 1) I’m not so excited about trait tooltips. I’m too lazy to writing everything in my exercise book and I don’t trust sites with gw2 builds. What if they’ll have a problems with server? I can lose my build.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

raahk.2786:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

raahk.2786:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

raahk.2786:

@turtledragon

And that proves that you rush to conclusions because you assume too much.
You wanna know the counter to stealth? Try swinging your sword. Try AoE. Try correct positioning, and correct timing of certain skills to stun, knockback, or pull the thief.

But nah, you’re just gonna wait until the update so you don’t have to think about anything.

You cant even name a single skill that can counter stealth, stop talking big please.

I’m not the one who is dying on my Thief when I have access to Stealth.
FYI my Thief has ran the scenario above multiple times, and I have yet to see anyone able to counter it and kill me. Am I just too good? Or is Stealth just broken?
Wait you ran this scenario too, but you died? You died because…Wait that’s obvious.

Spamming 1 to swing my sword that the Thief can clearly see and avoid.
Trying to AoE something I cant see.
Stunning my target, wait what target?
Use Pull? Pull have 40-60 recharge, Thieves have 5 skills of which some have no recharge to get back into Stealth.

With the update, I hope to see more skills that apply Revealed to Thieves.

Did I ever say that I was utilizing the perma stealth build? No, I didn’t. Again, you assume too much.
Skills aren’t needed, player skill is, but you’ll await the update because you’re terrible.

I use perma stealth build and nevr die. you claim that I am terrible.
You use a build inferior to perma stealth build and die, and you claim to be good.

Logic much?

You cant even copy the perma stealth build correctly or use it correctly, and you are dying. I shouldnt even need to assume anything, this is obvious

I know the permastealth build, but I don’t use it. Why? because it’s world versus world. Sometimes I’ll run a normal stealth build, sometimes I’ll run pistol/pistol. I’ve been running around with spirit weapons on my guardians. World versus World is a place where you can mostly just screw around with whatever builds you use.

And you’re terrible because you can’t counter it, and even moreso for claiming that I’m the one relying on it when you have just stated that you’re the one doing so yourself. Hypocrite much?

And no, you shouldn’t assume anything, but you do so anyways.

I’m going to stop replying to this since you’re beyond logical thought and reason.

I cant counter it because there is no counter. You proved that yourself because you cant even name a single skill that can counter stealth, which makes you believe there are skills out there that can counter stealth because you failed at using the perma stealth build.

It’s not that you dont use the perma stealth build. It is that you cant. Therefore, you have to resort to an inferior build. You are relying on stealth, but are not even able to use it at its broken potential. Then you say that stealth is not OP.

Everybody knows as much except for someone here. Even a dev admitted that he could not catch a thief in a livestream.

I mentioned knockbacks, stuns, and pulls. You want specific skills? Try using almost anything engineer. Really. Wait till a thief pops out of stealth, drop supply drop, use magnet to pull if he isn’t near you and keep pressure. Gee, so hard.
And I can use the perma stealth build easily, but I find it’s more fun to do other things then dance around in stealth for a half hour accomplishing almost nothing, but go ahead and insult my skill level again without knowing anything about me.

Warriors get boosts, but no heal nerfs? C’mon guys, in wvw to bring balance back, healing signet must be brought to something like 300 hps, if it’s still 400 hps in pvp i don’t care, it’s ok but but in wvw it’s superior overpowered. Especially with all immunity warrior has. Full immunity (even thousand hits, wouldn’t kill him + CC immunity (best in game, longest stability, with still super short cd) + crazy healing? No thanks Anet.

Either you balance the profs and i can go back to professions i like more, or i’ll keep playing warrior, cause you give me no choice.

darkace.8925:

raahk.2786:

A stealth-based thief will be completely crippled because a ranger has a single skill on their utility bar, and will then be left defenseless since he didn’t spec in to the acrobatics line and only has two dodges, with a maximum of four or five if using sword/dagger.

Yours might, mine won’t. If you can’t survive long enough for Reveal to wear off then you need to stop relying on stealth so you’ll learn to dodge, kite, use crowd control, and use terrain to your advantage. Or perhaps you need to stop running a one-trick-pony build and start running something a little more balanced? Either way, I can say with all certainty that stealth is NOT required for a thief’s survival.

Because the heal itself doesn’t restore health, right? Just because YOU can’t survive without stealth doesn’t mean the class itself can’t survive without stealth. Try trading in some of your Berserker’s gear and using the other tools given to you before claiming your glass cannon build is too fragile to survive without stealth? If you rely upon stealth to survive then you’re using stealth as a crutch.

Oh good, more people insulting my skill level while making assumptions. It was a hypothetical situation. You’re low on health, so you hide in shadows to stealth, heal, and get away from the multitude of people that are nearby. Instead, you’re met with the revealed mechanic and despite using dodges you’re still left with multiple conditions and downed instantly.

And please, point me in the direction of a build more viable then just the berserker, because I have yet to see it.

But please continue to discount other’s opinions by making assumptions about how they play without actually knowing how they play.

Good!

I’d much rather see these sorts of technical balance updates than any temporary content or cosmetic fluff.

Lyskaria.2145:

Hi Jonathan, while I don’t have any comments on specific parts of the patch preview, I would just like to say how happy I am to see this thread. In GW1, one of my favorite things was the notes for every set of skill changes, explaining the reasons behind them. I’ve missed this kind of communication in GW2, and while I won’t blame you for that (forum ragers, etc), I have to say I’m very relieved to see this happen. Thanks for the effort into this thread!

Edit: Corrected a typo.

If they are scared off by forum ragers, they need to find a different job.

“Engineer
We did some reworks on the Elixir toolbelt (f-bar) skills. These just didn’t have enough cool play to them, and we wanted to improve them. Like:
Elixir S toolbelt is now guaranteed stealth.”

More stealth, great… sigh. This is getting borderline kittened.

raahk.2786:

Oh good, more people insulting my skill level while making assumptions. It was a hypothetical situation.

This is the last time I’m going to respond to you, because even though you’re dead wrong, you’ve convinced yourself you’re right and we’re all wasting our time trying to show you why you’re wrong.

raahk.2786:

You’re low on health, so you hide in shadows to stealth, heal, and get away from the multitude of people that are nearby. Instead, you’re met with the revealed mechanic and despite using dodges you’re still left with multiple conditions and downed instantly.

You just proved why you’re wrong on this subject. Why should thief, and ONLY thief, have the ability to engage a “multitude of people” with impunity because of stealth? EVERY other class in the the game – every last one of them – dies if they bite off more than they chew. But thief can stealth in, poke someone a few times, and stealth out. And you think a counter to this is broken? Please…

raahk.2786:

And please, point me in the direction of a build more viable then just the berserker, because I have yet to see it.

So you’re complaining that thief can’t “survive more than five seconds” without stealth out one side of your mouth and claiming that Berserker’s is the most viable build out the other? Okay…

raahk.2786:

But please continue to discount other’s opinions by making assumptions about how they play without actually knowing how they play.

Your opinions are factually incorrect, and thus WRONG. I don’t need to know how you play… if you claim thieves can’t survive without stealth then you’re wrong.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Doomdesire.9365:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Doomdesire.9365:

darkace.8925:

Doomdesire.9365:

I disagree entirely with the change to “Sic EM”. I don’t think that’s the direction this game should be headed. Being able to disable core mechanics is a no go for me. Stealth is a core mechanic, and the introduction of Sic Em is like having an ability to disable

- Guardian Virtues
- Mesmer Clones
- Ranger Pets
- Warrior Adrenaline
- Necro Deathshroud
- Engi kits
- Ele Attunement swap

with the use of a single skill, specifically aimed at that class. While some may argue that thieves aren’t the only players who can use stealth, they still are the only class who relies heavily on it, and without, cannot survive (see P/P or S/P).

I also don’t agree with the “no counter” to stealth argument, because aside from D/P, any dagger offhand build that relies on stealth is easily countered by dodging CnD, blocking CnD, or blinding the thief, even well timed CCs. On my guardian I found that I could effectively deny a thief much of his stealth simply by negating Cloak And Dagger. Even D/P has it’s counters through the use of pulls and pushes.

Giving a passive ability to ranger pets which would allow them to see and attack stealthed enemies is a good idea, allowing said pet to reveal enemy is not.

Just my opinion…

Stealth is NOT Thief’s “core mechanic”, Steal and Initiative are.

All three are a core mechanic. Steal and initiative by itself isn’t enough. Roll a S/P or P/P thief and you will see, without stealth thieves are all but useless. While there are some builds such as jumper’s S/D and the D/D evade build, they simply aren’t viable outside of spvp. Not to mention that stealth has an entire trait line for thief. If that doesn’t prove it’s a core mechanic then nothing will.

Thieves being useless without Stealth =/= Stealth being a core mechanic of Thieves.

I could claim that Warriors are useless without the ability to remove Cripple/Immobilize/Chill, that does not make Snare Removal a core mechanic of the Warrior.
And Warriors really are useless without Snare Removals.

You haven’t explained why stealth isn’t a core mechanic yet. All you’ve done is say it isn’t and bring up an example that really doesn’t make sense. There are viable builds without snare removal for warriors. I don’t supposed you’ve ever seen a perplexity CC spamming warrior, have you?

Stealth has an entire trait line for thieves. How is that not a core mechanic? There isn’t any entire trait line devoted to snare removal for warriors. The comparison doesn’t make sense.

He defined core mechanic as a mechanic that the class cannot play without. If you define core mechanic as “entire trait line”, then Guardians have an entire trait line devoted to Blocking. Then Blocking is a core mechanic to Guardians. Remove all Unblockable attacks from the game. Why should Thieves get a core mechanic that is not removable and Guardians dont?
CORE MECHANICS SHOULD HAVE NO COUNTER, RIGHT?
While you are at it, make my Mesmer clones Invulnerable until i Shatter them. People killing my clones are stopping me from using my “core mechanic which has a dedicated trait line” of Shatter skills.

Your argument failed when you said stealth can’t be countered, because it can, as I have already explained earlier. You can block, blind, dodge, cc when the thief tries to Cloak And Dagger or CC BP + HS.

All this patch does is adding yet another counter, which isn’t needed.

Doomdesire.9365:

Your argument failed when you said stealth can’t be countered, because it can, as I have already explained earlier. You can block, blind, dodge, cc when the thief tries to Cloak And Dagger or CC BP + HS.

Your argument failed when you assumed Cloak and Dagger and blocks, blinds, dodges, and crowd control skills shared equal cooldown timers.

darkace.8925:

Doomdesire.9365:

Your argument failed when you said stealth can’t be countered, because it can, as I have already explained earlier. You can block, blind, dodge, cc when the thief tries to Cloak And Dagger or CC BP + HS.

Your argument failed when you assumed Cloak and Dagger and blocks, blinds, dodges, and crowd control skills shared equal cooldown timers.

On my guardian I have an auto aegis, active aegis, mace 3, focus 5, focus 4, gs 3, gs 5, and two dodges, plus an invulnerability/shelter if I need to block/invul his CnD, as well as a shout that gives me aegis.

On my thief I can CnD twice then have to wait 5 seconds. If I miss the one following that it’s a 10 second cooldown before I can CnD again.

darkace.8925:

raahk.2786:

Oh good, more people insulting my skill level while making assumptions. It was a hypothetical situation.

This is the last time I’m going to respond to you, because even though you’re dead wrong, you’ve convinced yourself you’re right and we’re all wasting our time trying to show you why you’re wrong.

raahk.2786:

You’re low on health, so you hide in shadows to stealth, heal, and get away from the multitude of people that are nearby. Instead, you’re met with the revealed mechanic and despite using dodges you’re still left with multiple conditions and downed instantly.

You just proved why you’re wrong on this subject. Why should thief, and ONLY thief, have the ability to engage a “multitude of people” with impunity because of stealth? EVERY other class in the the game – every last one of them – dies if they bite off more than they chew. But thief can stealth in, poke someone a few times, and stealth out. And you think a counter to this is broken? Please…

raahk.2786:

And please, point me in the direction of a build more viable then just the berserker, because I have yet to see it.

So you’re complaining that thief can’t “survive more than five seconds” without stealth out one side of your mouth and claiming that Berserker’s is the most viable build out the other? Okay…

raahk.2786:

But please continue to discount other’s opinions by making assumptions about how they play without actually knowing how they play.

Your opinions are factually incorrect, and thus WRONG. I don’t need to know how you play… if you claim thieves can’t survive without stealth then you’re wrong.

Did I say that thieves can do that? Did I say that thieves can engage a multitude of people and get off scoff free? No, I didn’t. It’s a hypothetical situation that has happened to many thief players. You’re fighting someone, you get low on health, need to heal, more people show up then you can handle. You don’t have the bulk of a guardian or warrior, or their blocks, or the invincibility of a ranger that’s running that specific build (which, by the way, are other classes that can get away with biting off more than they can chew just fine) so you need to get away, right? Oh look, button pressed, revealed, dead.

Let me word it better, STEALTH-BASED THIEVES, as in thieves that use the shadow arts line, will have a harder time living then that of an acrobatics thief, that has more dodges and movement based skills, alongside a larger healthpool. STEALTH-BASED THIEVES will get shafted by this skill since their entire survivability depends on stealth and the traits associated with it.

And you still haven’t pointed out an armorset that’s more viable then that of the berserker’s.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Skills that apply “Revealed”
…What about stealthed characters getting a “semi-revealed” visual effect while standing on enemy’s water fields? This would open up space for a water trait that would do that. Likewise, Ranger’s Muddy Terrain could do the same.

I find that idea fascinating. Also, I think making stealth less of a get-out-of-jail-free card is fine, but I would like to see Thieves get compensated for the nerfing of their primary survival mechanic (and possibly a nerf of the entire Shadow Arts trait line). A revamp of venoms and traps would be a large step in the right direction. I’d also love to see more synergy with P/P, and perhaps other general buffs to Thief like higher endurance regen and access to block or invulnerability.

I think that halving the boon-stripping capacity of S/D in the same turn as a significant change to stealth is also going to really hurt some S/D thieves in PvP, and I think it might be better to make one of those changes before proceeding with the other.

I really like the small guardian preview, especially as someone who loves playing more offensive guardians. I have a small concern though, don’t you fear that 20 points into valor will become mandatory for any offensive guardian build?

Valor already is a pretty strong trait line, with many excellent traits. Radiance and Zeal however, are still filled with “less than desired” traits like Inner Fire. Will you also take the chance to shore up some problems in these trees?

I realize that we’ve only seen a glimpse of what’s to come though, so I want to thank you guys for what’ve you’ve already shown.

As far as sigils go, I have never understood why ones like this exist: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Sanctuary.

Such a weird thing.

Thanks for sharing the upcoming changes Chaplan, but I haven’t seen anything mentioned in any posts or in the state of the game regarding changes that are so desperately needed to the matchmaking system. Rank 50’s getting grouped with rank 2’s really needs to stop. I would much rather wait a little longer in queue than get placed in a group with people who just bought the game or who just started tpvp’ing.

Can you please comment on this because I have seen nothing mentioned on it.

Thanks.

GREAT IDEA with sick em!
this is the best idea ever (ive been wanting something like this since launch) !

Shaving 1 boon off of larcenous strike will only cause two things:

S/d thieves will completely ignore boon guardians, boon eles (This should already be proven, since it was the main reason you added the second boon removal)

and 2:
you will see a drastic increase of s/d thiefs spamming 3 (we have to to clear there boons or we hold no hope of winning), honestly i pre-load Larcenous strike and infiltrators strike onto them 9/10 times it misses (the animation is so slow, they simply keep walking)

If your really serious about removing the second boon (really think you shouldn’t)
then you should speed up the animation of larcenous strike a tad bit. maybe even set it so regeneration is the very first boon removed.

I like what i’m reading. There are steps in right direction.

That said, there are still a LOT of things that needs to be adressed, both as “general meta and balance” and particular cases of skills/traits.

There are still trait lines, skill, weapons, builds that needs love, both in terms of balance and in polish. There are still trait lines, skill, weapons, buils that could use a little tone down.

Hope that at least about balancing you’ve woken up, this is one of the few balance patches that (so far) made me think “Good”. Oh, and some heads up + QoL features sound quite nice.

Well, at least until i came across leaks stating the “Duration based Boons and Conditions now stacks up only 5 times max” and the “Blocking and Evading targets now count to the 5 man AoE cap”, which are something that will have enourmous impact on WvW, compared to Spvp. Dunno if confirmed or not tho.

Also, some balancing choices made for Spvp will be quite…meh, to say the least, for WvW, where Shout War and Staff Ele for example are already top notch meta builds for groups/zergs.

Still have to play things out, and so far seems just to be a patch strenghtening the already strong but without major nerfs (in spvp too seems).

But i guess that as usual Spvp is everything that matters when comes down to balancing…..bah.