Guild Wars 2

Manasa Devi.7958:

Small comfort to the people who couldn’t care less about the laurels because they already have hundreds sitting there in the idle hope there’s ever going to be more stuff to spend them on.

Are . . . are you bouncing from the rest of my post to the one thing you can pick on?

Though I agree. I stopped going for Laurels after I got my mini I wanted. (No, not the cat. That cat can go back to the moon.) I have little interest in the extra accessories, Ascended or no, and am ambivalent about buying the crafting bags.

The only way I can respond to the start of your post is to single out specific people and quote their opinions so as to prove there is definitely some hypocrisy going on. I don’t want to do that because singling out people never ends well.

About the separation of rewards, I disagree that it’s a good thing. The previous system got people playing for their reward, be it laurels or AP. The only problem with them was apparently that some obsessive players needed to be protected from themselves because they felt “forced” to do 12 dailies.

I feel a far better result might’ve been accomplished by mostly keeping what we had before, just changing to the ‘gain max AP for doing x achievements’ that we have now, and perhaps adding some more possible tasks to the mix instead of stripping most of them and leaving us with stupid pet tricks.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Manasa Devi.7958:

I was actually trying to point out the hypocrisy of some people who in one breath call it lazy that we could gain a handful of AP through normal play with the previous daily implementation but applaud the new log in rewards and point at those as the answer to all our woes.

Hmmm. Hard to reconcile, yes. Not sure if I’d go so far as to say it was “hypocrisy” though. There are similar examples to reasoning which makes no sense when looked at as “A and B” but start to make more sense when you look at it more broadly.

Personally, starting off with the log in rewards would have been better than the Dailies. We could have avoided retooling the darn things four (at least) times between then and now trying to satisfy players.

It’s the separation of those rewards from Daily Achievements which I think is the positive step. Or at least the positive step for the segment of players who would complain about being “forced” to do them so they could get Laurels.

Small comfort to the people who couldn’t care less about the laurels because they already have hundreds sitting there in the idle hope there’s ever going to be more stuff to spend them on.

I’m surprised those people don’t turn laurels into gold by buying T6 mats and turning them over (if they don’t want to use them for crafting).

T6 mats sell well. So you’d not only need all the laurels you’d need, but you’d also need to have all the gold you need.

Not quite the same.

Manasa Devi.7958:

The only way I can respond to the start of your post is to single out specific people and quote their opinions so as to prove there is definitely some hypocrisy going on. I don’t want to do that because singling out people never ends well.

About the separation of rewards, I disagree that it’s a good thing. The previous system got people playing for their reward, be it laurels or AP. The only problem with them was apparently that some obsessive players needed to be protected from themselves because they felt “forced” to do 12 dailies.

I feel a far better result might’ve been accomplished by mostly keeping what we had before, just changing to the ‘gain max AP for doing x achievements’ that we have now, and perhaps adding some more possible tasks to the mix instead of stripping most of them and leaving us with stupid pet tricks.

I agree with this regarding the new daily system. For me it’s kinda a love/hate thing. I love the fact that by logging in I get rewards. That’s much easier than before and I can understand why they went with this system. I have no complaints here.

What I do have a complaint with is the specific dailies that we are now asked to do. Sure they are much simpler, but now I have do something different during my brief window of play than I would have done with the previous daily system.

Now I know that I am not forced to do these things and that is my choice which is true, which by just admitting kinda prevents me from complaining. However, when you played with the previous system so long and it much better accommodated you have to feel a sense of frustration. Since the beginning of the 3 iteration of the daily system I could just log on, do what I want and achieve 5 dailies without going out of my way to somewhere I did not intend to do. Now, that is what I feel like I am asked to do. Which is bothersome to me.

TL:DR Bottom line for me. I love the log on rewards, hate the daily achieves. If they would have kept the previous daily achieves or added more that were similar to the previous design it would have stayed more true to the spirit of “Play How You Want”

At least to me.

In fine with pretty much everything except the way traits have to be unlocked now. That’s a wrap – I have nothing against playing the game, but you’ve made a long list of chores, Anet.

What do I say to lists of chores? Go kitten yourself, if I wanted a giant laundry list of chores to make a new character even vaguely useful in any circumstances, I’d go back to raiding in WoW.

So, I’ll never be making a new character again. I could certainly do all the things and unlock everything on a new one, but I could also light my head on fire, or slam my head in a car door.

They all sound equally appealing.

Vayne.8563:

Manasa Devi.7958:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Manasa Devi.7958:

I was actually trying to point out the hypocrisy of some people who in one breath call it lazy that we could gain a handful of AP through normal play with the previous daily implementation but applaud the new log in rewards and point at those as the answer to all our woes.

Hmmm. Hard to reconcile, yes. Not sure if I’d go so far as to say it was “hypocrisy” though. There are similar examples to reasoning which makes no sense when looked at as “A and B” but start to make more sense when you look at it more broadly.

Personally, starting off with the log in rewards would have been better than the Dailies. We could have avoided retooling the darn things four (at least) times between then and now trying to satisfy players.

It’s the separation of those rewards from Daily Achievements which I think is the positive step. Or at least the positive step for the segment of players who would complain about being “forced” to do them so they could get Laurels.

Small comfort to the people who couldn’t care less about the laurels because they already have hundreds sitting there in the idle hope there’s ever going to be more stuff to spend them on.

I’m surprised those people don’t turn laurels into gold by buying T6 mats and turning them over (if they don’t want to use them for crafting).

T6 mats sell well. So you’d not only need all the laurels you’d need, but you’d also need to have all the gold you need.

Not quite the same.

I do have all the gold I need. I don’t need a daily addition of one to the thousands I’m not using for anything. I prefer to keep my resources spread out a bit so I can jump instantly on anything new that might be added, using whatever currency needed.

I also have all the karma I guess I’ll ever need, no more need for tomes of knowledge and a special row in a personal guild storage for mystic coins I’m not using for anything. The daily log in rewards offer me nothing I care about in the slightest.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Vayne.8563:

Manasa Devi.7958:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Manasa Devi.7958:

I was actually trying to point out the hypocrisy of some people who in one breath call it lazy that we could gain a handful of AP through normal play with the previous daily implementation but applaud the new log in rewards and point at those as the answer to all our woes.

Hmmm. Hard to reconcile, yes. Not sure if I’d go so far as to say it was “hypocrisy” though. There are similar examples to reasoning which makes no sense when looked at as “A and B” but start to make more sense when you look at it more broadly.

Personally, starting off with the log in rewards would have been better than the Dailies. We could have avoided retooling the darn things four (at least) times between then and now trying to satisfy players.

It’s the separation of those rewards from Daily Achievements which I think is the positive step. Or at least the positive step for the segment of players who would complain about being “forced” to do them so they could get Laurels.

Small comfort to the people who couldn’t care less about the laurels because they already have hundreds sitting there in the idle hope there’s ever going to be more stuff to spend them on.

I’m surprised those people don’t turn laurels into gold by buying T6 mats and turning them over (if they don’t want to use them for crafting).

T6 mats sell well. So you’d not only need all the laurels you’d need, but you’d also need to have all the gold you need.

Not quite the same.

I do have all the gold I need. I don’t need a daily addition of one to the thousands I’m not using for anything. I prefer to keep my resources spread out a bit so I can jump instantly on anything new that might be added, using whatever currency needed.

I also have all the karma I guess I’ll ever need, no more need for tomes of knowledge and a special row in a personal guild storage for mystic coins I’m not using for anything. The daily log in reward offer me nothing I care about in the slightest.

Well I think you’ll find that people either don’t have all the mats, gold or laurels they need, at least most of them.

That puts you squarely in a minority.

Vayne.8563:

Well I think you’ll find that people either don’t have all the mats, gold or laurels they need, at least most of them.

That puts you squarely in a minority.

I realize that. Unfortunately, it also puts me squarely in the position that the daily AP are the only thing that ‘adds’ something I still find significant to my account. (There’s nothing left I want to do among the permanent achievements.) I used to get a trickle by just playing. Now I need to do stupid pet tricks for that. No one is ever going to convince me that this is better for me.

And yes, that’s the only consideration I give this system. Is it better for me? I don’t care if it’s better for other people, they can (and do) post their own opinions. Some of them I even read and empathize with. What I can’t be bothered with is people telling me how it’s not worse for me. Because it is.

Manasa Devi.7958:

The only way I can respond to the start of your post is to single out specific people and quote their opinions so as to prove there is definitely some hypocrisy going on. I don’t want to do that because singling out people never ends well.

The smiley was there to suggest I was kidding . . . I understood why.

About the separation of rewards, I disagree that it’s a good thing. The previous system got people playing for their reward, be it laurels or AP. The only problem with them was apparently that some obsessive players needed to be protected from themselves because they felt “forced” to do 12 dailies.

I very much agree here, and we had a ton of people who would come on here and complain about being “forced” to do things. Much like how people want to claim “forced” over the AP currently with the new system . . . but that’s been buried in this topic for a while under the repeated back and forth semantics over the words “forced” and “optional”.

(Note: I can see why people really chase the AP, and could see a case for it being claimed to be important ever since the AP rewards got introduced a while back. I personally thought they were kind of cool, as it gave some of a reason to earn them. On the other hand . . . I also see it went awry.)

I feel a far better result might’ve been accomplished by mostly keeping what we had before, just changing to the ‘gain max AP for doing x achievements’ that we have now, and perhaps adding some more possible tasks to the mix instead of stripping most of them and leaving us with stupid pet tricks.

I honestly gave a description in another post about how I would have done this whole thing over to give more choice and more potential for “choose how you play”. I’ll have to dive and find it, then edit a link in. And even then I sketched it out broadly and saw there would still be issues lobbed at it over being too restrictive, not enough choice, and “forcing” people into doing things they don’t want to do.

Edit: Post is here

Honestly, the whole root of this thing is choice. I understand that problem, but it also ticks me off a bit since that has always . . . continuously . . . been what people kept/keep asking for in the past with regards to Dailies. And, amusingly, it seems only the PvE players are the ones getting terribly bent out of shape.

I don’t think there’s a single possible system to put in place which will make the lobby to keep reinventing the Daily/Monthly ever stop. It’s why I suggested simply destroying it might have been best when the new Login Rewards went live – the only reason to do them is AP, and the reasons to design them into the game have long since been rendered moot.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Vayne.8563:

Well I think you’ll find that people either don’t have all the mats, gold or laurels they need, at least most of them.

That puts you squarely in a minority.

I realize that. Unfortunately, it also puts me squarely in the position that the daily AP are the only thing that ‘adds’ something I still find significant to my account. (There’s nothing left I want to do among the permanent achievements.) I used to get a trickle by just playing. Now I need to do stupid pet tricks for that. No one is ever going to convince me that this is better for me.

And yes, that’s the only consideration I give this system. Is it better for me? I don’t care if it’s better for other people, they can (and do) post their own opinions. Some of them I even read and empathize with. What I can’t be bothered with is people telling me how it’s not worse for me. Because it is.

I’m sure it’s not better for you. And I feel bad for that. I really do. You may think because I argue that I have no sympathy for people who don’t like changes to the game. I do.

I hope that Anet does make some changes that allow you to enjoy the game again. But they certainly can’t program the game or changes around people who are already basically done with it.

At least I can’t see how they can do that.

I realize that. I do feel however that some of the choices they made with these new dailies are objectively bad. People may like them because of the ease with which they can be completed, but that doesn’t make them good.

I’m not going to rehash the objective criticisms, they’re plastered all over the threads dealing with this subject matter.

Manasa Devi.7958:

I realize that. I do feel however that some of the choices they made with these new dailies are objectively bad. People may like them because of the ease with which they can be completed, but that doesn’t make them good.

I’m not going to rehash the objective criticisms, they’re plastered all over the threads dealing with this subject matter.

It’s hard to know what’s objectively bad, without knowing the reason they were implemented.

Take the daily DE in a specific zone. I’ve done them all and none of them took very long. People are in map chat calling out waypoints. Go to a waypoint and get it done.

But then, I realize, like today,. hey I’m in sparkfly, look at all the bags I’m getting. Holy crap, linen, platinum, rugged leather, hard wood. This is all stuff I need, that I’m low on that sells really well.

I stayed longer than I needed to because in this case, I was having fun and getting stuff I needed at the same time.

People make it sound like it takes hours to do these events. Even in Southsun it didn’t take me half an hour.

What this has done is it’s funneled people who want the social aspect into a different zone every day for us to play together in. For some of us, that’s fun and exciting.

For some, who want to keep their head down and do what they want…there’s nothing stopping them. At most it’s only a few achievement points.

And if people were only logging in for dailies anyway, they were all but done with the game in everything but name.

I’m giving Anet one last shot, before I end up leaving the game for good. If their next change of whatever in this game is good WITHOUT any major negatives, I will forgive them and try to play more. If it’s just as bad as the last bunch of changes…well, the $20 a month I used to give monthly to Anet will just keep going into FFXIV then, and I can uninstall GW2 instead of grasping on the hope of redemption, because right now GW2 is going the way of SWG.

Vayne.8563:

Manasa Devi.7958:

I realize that. I do feel however that some of the choices they made with these new dailies are objectively bad. People may like them because of the ease with which they can be completed, but that doesn’t make them good.

And yet, I won’t call that objectively bad.

I’m not going to rehash the objective criticisms, they’re plastered all over the threads dealing with this subject matter.

It’s hard to know what’s objectively bad, without knowing the reason they were implemented.

Take the daily DE in a specific zone. I’ve done them all and none of them took very long. People are in map chat calling out waypoints. Go to a waypoint and get it done.

But then, I realize, like today,. hey I’m in sparkfly, look at all the bags I’m getting. Holy crap, linen, platinum, rugged leather, hard wood. This is all stuff I need, that I’m low on that sells really well.

I stayed longer than I needed to because in this case, I was having fun and getting stuff I needed at the same time.

People make it sound like it takes hours to do these events. Even in Southsun it didn’t take me half an hour.

What this has done is it’s funneled people who want the social aspect into a different zone every day for us to play together in. For some of us, that’s fun and exciting.

For some, who want to keep their head down and do what they want…there’s nothing stopping them. At most it’s only a few achievement points.

And if people were only logging in for dailies anyway, they were all but done with the game in everything but name.

Actually, the one zone I will never be playing henceforth will be the zone that has the daily events going on. There’s nothing to be loved about it. Having more people around than the content can support without collapsing in some way, that’s wholly undesirable to me.

Also, a social aspect? You must have low standards, or miraculously always end up in utopian instances. I haven’t seen map chat other than people asking about events telegram-style, and the linking of waypoints, with the occasional cussing out of someone who called a waypoint where the event was almost over, thereby wasting people’s time.

Not surprising of course, because the vast majority of people are only there to get it over with.

And yet, I don’t consider those achievements to be objectively bad.

What I consider objectively bad are the exclusion of low-level alts, the trivial tasks needing to be performed in specific areas and the profession specific PvP achievements.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Vayne.8563:

Manasa Devi.7958:

I realize that. I do feel however that some of the choices they made with these new dailies are objectively bad. People may like them because of the ease with which they can be completed, but that doesn’t make them good.

And yet, I won’t call that objectively bad.

I’m not going to rehash the objective criticisms, they’re plastered all over the threads dealing with this subject matter.

It’s hard to know what’s objectively bad, without knowing the reason they were implemented.

Take the daily DE in a specific zone. I’ve done them all and none of them took very long. People are in map chat calling out waypoints. Go to a waypoint and get it done.

But then, I realize, like today,. hey I’m in sparkfly, look at all the bags I’m getting. Holy crap, linen, platinum, rugged leather, hard wood. This is all stuff I need, that I’m low on that sells really well.

I stayed longer than I needed to because in this case, I was having fun and getting stuff I needed at the same time.

People make it sound like it takes hours to do these events. Even in Southsun it didn’t take me half an hour.

What this has done is it’s funneled people who want the social aspect into a different zone every day for us to play together in. For some of us, that’s fun and exciting.

For some, who want to keep their head down and do what they want…there’s nothing stopping them. At most it’s only a few achievement points.

And if people were only logging in for dailies anyway, they were all but done with the game in everything but name.

Actually, the one zone I will never be playing henceforth will be the zone that has the daily events going on. There’s nothing to be loved about it. Having more people around than the content can support without collapsing in some way, that’s wholly undesirable to me.

Also, a social aspect? You must have low standards, or miraculously always end up in utopian instances. I haven’t seen map chat other than people asking about events telegram-style, and the linking of waypoints, with the occasional cussing out of someone who called a waypoint where the event was almost over, thereby wasting people’s time.

Not surprising of course, because the vast majority of people are only there to get it over with.

And yet, I don’t consider those achievements to be objectively bad.

What I consider objectively bad are the exclusion of low-level alts, the trivial tasks needing to be performed in specific areas and the profession specific PvP achievements.

I have high standards for social aspect. I can play these zones with half my guild (as opposed to a dungeon where I can only take 4).

Manasa Devi.7958:

What I consider objectively bad are the exclusion of low-level alts, the trivial tasks needing to be performed in specific areas and the profession specific PvP achievements.

These are certainly not objectively bad.

Low level alt’s are excluded from area specific tasks, but they can still get the experience bonus. I am not sure what other objection you might have to that.

Trivial tasks in specific areas has always been around. It is pretty obvious why too. I don’t see this as objectively bad.

PvP achievements tied to classes I agree with being a bad thing. Players being forced to either buy more character slots or delete one of their alt’s is a bad thing. Possibly even objectively. The encouraging people to try a different class aspect however is great.

Cormac.3871:

Manasa Devi.7958:

What I consider objectively bad are the exclusion of low-level alts, the trivial tasks needing to be performed in specific areas and the profession specific PvP achievements.

These are certainly not objectively bad.

Low level alt’s are excluded from area specific tasks, but they can still get the experience bonus. I am not sure what other objection you might have to that.

Some people want to play their alts, not feed them consumables. What point is there to having alts if playing them is not a satisfying option?

Cormac.3871:

Trivial tasks in specific areas has always been around. It is pretty obvious why too. I don’t see this as objectively bad.

You must be playing another version of the game? China release perhaps?

I don’t agree that any of the changes are objectively bad. I do agree that they will be subjectively bad for some people.

For me they are better than the old system because they require me to spend less of my time going out of my way running errands.

Ashen.2907:

I don’t agree that any of the changes are objectively bad. I do agree that they will be subjectively bad for some people.

For me they are better than the old system because they require me to spend less of my time going out of my way running errands.

You’re asserting that the new trait system requires you to spend less of your time going out of your way to run errands when, in demonstrable fact, it went from being no errands at all to a definitive and lengthy list of errands?

I suspect you might’ve overlooked that elephant in the room in the general reference. Some of their changes certainly didn’t make anything more tedious, but then there’s the trait affair to consider too.

naiasonod.9265:

Ashen.2907:

I don’t agree that any of the changes are objectively bad. I do agree that they will be subjectively bad for some people.

For me they are better than the old system because they require me to spend less of my time going out of my way running errands.

You’re asserting that the new trait system requires you to spend less of your time going out of your way to run errands when, in demonstrable fact, it went from being no errands at all to a definitive and lengthy list of errands?

I suspect you might’ve overlooked that elephant in the room in the general reference. Some of their changes certainly didn’t make anything more tedious, but then there’s the trait affair to consider too.

I would be interested in seeing it demonstrated as fact that I didnt face out of my way errands prior to the change.

Perhaps rather than, “demonstrable fact,” you meant, “opinion.”

For me not only did the changes not make anything more tedious, they made things less so.

Ashen.2907:

naiasonod.9265:

Ashen.2907:

I don’t agree that any of the changes are objectively bad. I do agree that they will be subjectively bad for some people.

For me they are better than the old system because they require me to spend less of my time going out of my way running errands.

You’re asserting that the new trait system requires you to spend less of your time going out of your way to run errands when, in demonstrable fact, it went from being no errands at all to a definitive and lengthy list of errands?

I suspect you might’ve overlooked that elephant in the room in the general reference. Some of their changes certainly didn’t make anything more tedious, but then there’s the trait affair to consider too.

I would be interested in seeing it demonstrated as fact that I didnt face out of my way errands prior to the change.

Perhaps rather than, “demonstrable fact,” you meant, “opinion.”

For me not only did the changes not make anything more tedious, they made things less so.

Its a pretty demonstrable fact that the old trait system was far less procedurally complicated, aka ‘tedious’ or, as most of reasonable mien might be able to broadly grasp, very errand-like, than the new.

That is not opinion. That is absolutely referable, demonstrable fact.

I’m not sure what foot you’re trying to stand on to argue anything contrary. I would probably find any attempt at explaining the thought process arriving at such a bass-ackwards conclusion to be rather entertaining.

naiasonod.9265:

Ashen.2907:

naiasonod.9265:

Ashen.2907:

I don’t agree that any of the changes are objectively bad. I do agree that they will be subjectively bad for some people.

For me they are better than the old system because they require me to spend less of my time going out of my way running errands.

You’re asserting that the new trait system requires you to spend less of your time going out of your way to run errands when, in demonstrable fact, it went from being no errands at all to a definitive and lengthy list of errands?

I suspect you might’ve overlooked that elephant in the room in the general reference. Some of their changes certainly didn’t make anything more tedious, but then there’s the trait affair to consider too.

I would be interested in seeing it demonstrated as fact that I didnt face out of my way errands prior to the change.

Perhaps rather than, “demonstrable fact,” you meant, “opinion.”

For me not only did the changes not make anything more tedious, they made things less so.

Its a pretty demonstrable fact that the old trait system was far less procedurally complicated, aka ‘tedious’ or, as most of reasonable mien might be able to broadly grasp, very errand-like, than the new.

That is not opinion. That is absolutely referable, demonstrable fact.

I’m not sure what foot you’re trying to stand on to argue anything contrary. I would probably find any attempt at explaining the thought process arriving at such a bass-ackwards conclusion to be rather entertaining.

I see the disconnect now. I assumed that when you claimed that I was making an assertion about the errand nature of the trait system you had meant to say daily system because my comment was meant to be directed at the daily system.

My apologies for not being more specific.

Ashen.2907:

naiasonod.9265:

Ashen.2907:

naiasonod.9265:

Ashen.2907:

I don’t agree that any of the changes are objectively bad. I do agree that they will be subjectively bad for some people.

For me they are better than the old system because they require me to spend less of my time going out of my way running errands.

You’re asserting that the new trait system requires you to spend less of your time going out of your way to run errands when, in demonstrable fact, it went from being no errands at all to a definitive and lengthy list of errands?

I suspect you might’ve overlooked that elephant in the room in the general reference. Some of their changes certainly didn’t make anything more tedious, but then there’s the trait affair to consider too.

I would be interested in seeing it demonstrated as fact that I didnt face out of my way errands prior to the change.

Perhaps rather than, “demonstrable fact,” you meant, “opinion.”

For me not only did the changes not make anything more tedious, they made things less so.

Its a pretty demonstrable fact that the old trait system was far less procedurally complicated, aka ‘tedious’ or, as most of reasonable mien might be able to broadly grasp, very errand-like, than the new.

That is not opinion. That is absolutely referable, demonstrable fact.

I’m not sure what foot you’re trying to stand on to argue anything contrary. I would probably find any attempt at explaining the thought process arriving at such a bass-ackwards conclusion to be rather entertaining.

I see the disconnect now. I assumed that when you claimed that I was making an assertion about the errand nature of the trait system you had meant to say daily system because my comment was meant to be directed at the daily system.

My apologies for not being more specific.

Ahh, gotcha, gotcha. Disconnect identified; clarification processed! In that light, I can well agree that about the daily system. I’d simply seen your prior statement and thought ‘Wot? Some things are certainly less tedious, but then we’ve got what they did to unlocking traits’.

Its unlocking traits, to be specific, that I was going ‘Err, well, then there’s this too. Did you somehow mean this too? I don’t see how you could mean this too’ about.

naiasonod.9265:

Ashen.2907:

naiasonod.9265:

Ashen.2907:

naiasonod.9265:

Ashen.2907:

I don’t agree that any of the changes are objectively bad. I do agree that they will be subjectively bad for some people.

For me they are better than the old system because they require me to spend less of my time going out of my way running errands.

You’re asserting that the new trait system requires you to spend less of your time going out of your way to run errands when, in demonstrable fact, it went from being no errands at all to a definitive and lengthy list of errands?

I suspect you might’ve overlooked that elephant in the room in the general reference. Some of their changes certainly didn’t make anything more tedious, but then there’s the trait affair to consider too.

I would be interested in seeing it demonstrated as fact that I didnt face out of my way errands prior to the change.

Perhaps rather than, “demonstrable fact,” you meant, “opinion.”

For me not only did the changes not make anything more tedious, they made things less so.

Its a pretty demonstrable fact that the old trait system was far less procedurally complicated, aka ‘tedious’ or, as most of reasonable mien might be able to broadly grasp, very errand-like, than the new.

That is not opinion. That is absolutely referable, demonstrable fact.

I’m not sure what foot you’re trying to stand on to argue anything contrary. I would probably find any attempt at explaining the thought process arriving at such a bass-ackwards conclusion to be rather entertaining.

I see the disconnect now. I assumed that when you claimed that I was making an assertion about the errand nature of the trait system you had meant to say daily system because my comment was meant to be directed at the daily system.

My apologies for not being more specific.

Ahh, gotcha, gotcha. Disconnect identified; clarification processed! In that light, I can well agree that about the daily system. I’d simply seen your prior statement and thought ‘Wot? Some things are certainly less tedious, but then we’ve got what they did to unlocking traits’.

Its unlocking traits, to be specific, that I was going ‘Err, well, then there’s this too. Did you somehow mean this too? I don’t see how you could mean this too’ about.

I really dislike the changes to the trait system. They do not affect me all that much because I made a point to buy character slots and fill them with all of the alts I could expect to want to play back at launch (anyone familiar with how birthday gifts worked in GW1 will understand why). So, although the level push-back is annoying at least all of my characters are grandfathered in.

Even so I look at the new trait system and just know that my alts would never get played if they werent grandfathered. I really sympathize with anyone having to face dealing with it to level a character.

Filaha.1678:

Astralporing.1957:

Filaha.1678:

Incorrect analogy. There were not an equal amount of choices before. You’re misrepresenting the previous system by suggesting that.

Here’s a better analogy.
The shop had 8 toy bears, 2 toy cats, and 2 toy dogs.

No, there were no 8 pve-specific dailies. Most of the dailies were generic, and could have been as easily done in any of the three game modes – which you already know. So, now it’s you that are knowingly misrepresenting your case.

Gathering could have been easily done in PVP? Daily Fractals? Daily Story Dungeon? Personal Story? (Region) Killer? Costume Brawl? Kill Variety? Puzzle Jumper? Aquatic Slayer? Event Mentor?

Don’t be oblivious, please. You know how dailies were mixed and how limited in quantity PvE-only achievements were. Here’s a list of dailies we would’ve had with the old system today:

• Daily Events [PvE] [WvW]
• Daily Kills [PvE] [WvW]
• Daily Gatherer [PvE] [WvW]
• Recycler [PvE] [PvP] [WvW]
• Leveler [PvE] [PvP] [WvW]
• Condition Remover [PvE] [PvP] [WvW]
• Daily Dodger [PvE] [PvP] [WvW]
• Daily Group Event Completer [PvE] [WvW]
• Daily WvW Invasion Defender [WvW]
• Daily WvW Tower Capturer [WvW]
• PvP Daily Matches Played [PvP]
• PvP Daily Player Kills [PvP]

Choices for game modes for old system:

• 8 dailies completable in [PvE]
• 10 dailies completable in [WvW] (ironically, more than PvE)
• 6 dailies completable in [PvP]

Choices for game modes for new system:

• 4 dailies completable in [PvE]
• 4 dailies completable in [WvW]
• 4 dailies completable in [PvP]

Yeeeeeeeaaaaaaah, it’s the “same”, simply “different” choice.

So if anything, we now have “4 bear only”, “4 cat only” and “4 dog only”, instead of a lot of extra “bear-which-looks-like-cat-and-dog-and-everyone-loves-it!” animals.

This has got to be the biggest, most viewed topic without a response from a dev…

Whatever the new dailys are, they are way too easy to complete to recieve the 10 ap points. Play how you want has turned into why bother playing at all. just show up.

That is up to the player. The way I see it, it just gives me set goals that might be worth a shot. I got nothing to lose save for the chests that come with those dailies, I think.

Reanne.5462:

This has got to be the biggest, most viewed topic without a response from a dev…

Whatever the new dailys are, they are way too easy to complete to recieve the 10 ap points. Play how you want has turned into why bother playing at all. just show up.

Just a comment:

From I dislike the new dailies
Posted by: Gaile Gray
“Don’t worry — we were able to gather the gist of player opinion from the many posts in this and other threads. So if you shared, we got it. If you did not share, no worries — we have a large cross-section from which we gathered stats and data.
Of course you’re welcome to post if you wish, but if you’ve already shared, we got ya covered.”

They are doing their responding in that thread but as she said, they are reading the other threads on this subject also.

Astral Projections.7320:

They are doing their responding in that thread but as she said, they are reading the other threads on this subject also.

. . . though, you know nobody posting in any topic on this believes they’re going to do anything.

I don’t know about that. Given how often they’ve changed the dailies over the lifetime of the game, more change in the future seems inevitable. Maybe not prompted by anything we say though, there’s that…

Filaha.1678:

Astralporing.1957:

Filaha.1678:

Incorrect analogy. There were not an equal amount of choices before. You’re misrepresenting the previous system by suggesting that.

Here’s a better analogy.
The shop had 8 toy bears, 2 toy cats, and 2 toy dogs.

No, there were no 8 pve-specific dailies. Most of the dailies were generic, and could have been as easily done in any of the three game modes – which you already know. So, now it’s you that are knowingly misrepresenting your case.

Gathering could have been easily done in PVP? Daily Fractals? Daily Story Dungeon? Personal Story? (Region) Killer? Costume Brawl? Kill Variety? Puzzle Jumper? Aquatic Slayer? Event Mentor?

Heck, the only one of those that could have been done in WvW without going significantly out of your way was Gathering, and even then you had to stop what you were doing and hope you didn’t get jumped while picking flowers.

That’s why I lumped in 8 “PVE” achievements. Because there are many that are simply not achievable in WVW or PVP, making it frequently impossible to get 10 AP in PVP/WVW without leaving them.

Daily Dodger, Daily condition applier/remover, daily leveler/skill points – all equally easy in every game mode. Daily killer equally easy in WvW as PvE, slightly longer to achieve in sPvP. Events even easier in WvW than PvE (though not possible in sPvP). Gatherer doable in WvW (though again, not in sPvP). Usually no more than 2-3 dailies were really pve specific or heavy pve reliant. Most were generic. Yes, PvE had an advantage over other game modes (especially over sPvP), i never claimed otherwise. That is not however what you implied – your example tried to show as if all non – pvp specific dailies were PvE dailies, which was simply not true.

Reanne.5462:

This has got to be the biggest, most viewed topic without a response from a dev…

Oh, no, at 10 pages it is not even a serious contender.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Astral Projections.7320:

They are doing their responding in that thread but as she said, they are reading the other threads on this subject also.

. . . though, you know nobody posting in any topic on this believes they’re going to do anything.

Actually I do think they are going to do something. If it turns out that a zerg in the starter zones is hindering newbies from doing events then I expect the starter zones to be quietly removed from the list.

As to the other complaints (including mine)… spitting in the wind imo. Why should they completely revamp the dailies anytime soon? In a few days or less, posting about it will slow to a trickle then stop. The threads will slip off the front page within a few hours to a day and disappear into the forum depths (Special thanks to the new and disimproved forum reorganization which no one wanted, asked for, and had many valid objections to).

It would take work to revamp the dailies. Not just making new/old categories but setting up new rewards then implementing this (basically admitting they made a mistake). No, I’m not expecting this to be done when they haven’t reversed other, far more game changing decisions.

Reanne.5462:

This has got to be the biggest, most viewed topic without a response from a dev…

Whatever the new dailys are, they are way too easy to complete to recieve the 10 ap points. Play how you want has turned into why bother playing at all. just show up.

I’m sure the devs have nothing better to do on Christmas week than say to people we’ll look at it on the forums.

If I were a dev and I wanted to have a nice Christmas this is the absolute last place I would be.

This is not a universally reviled feature. There are a whole lot of people playing who like it.

So what do you want the devs to say? It’s only been out 10 days.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Filaha.1678:

Manasa Devi.7958:

I was actually trying to point out the hypocrisy of some people who in one breath call it lazy that we could gain a handful of AP through normal play with the previous daily implementation but applaud the new log in rewards and point at those as the answer to all our woes.

That’s not hypocrisy, though. The point is that if you want to be lazy and just get rewards for doing what you were going to do regardless, you already are being rewarded for just doing what you were going to do regardless.

Yes, it is hypocrisy. And it’s not true. I’m not being rewarded for doing what I was going to do regardless. I’m being rewarded for logging in. I can log out, and not do what I was going to do, and I already have the reward. The actual play after the log in is more unrewarding than ever.

So you weren’t going to log in regardless? Kinda hard to get the dailies done without doing that.

What does that have to do with anything I said?

Lishtenbird.2814:

Don’t be oblivious, please. You know how dailies were mixed and how limited in quantity PvE-only achievements were. Here’s a list of dailies we would’ve had with the old system today:

Great. That’s one day. Limited sample size to your argument, though. I’m going to go through that list now for 30 days and list the days where I could not get 10 AP without leaving WvW or going out of my way.

Dec 25: Personal Story
Dec 26: Activity
Dec 28: Puzzle Jumper
Dec 29: Kill Variety
Dec 30: Event Mentor
Jan 1: Activity, Shiverpeaks Event, Story Dungeon
Jan 2: Activity
Jan 3: Fractal
Jan 4: Maguuma Killer
Jan 5: Ambient Killer
Jan 6: Costume Brawl
Jan 8: Ambient, Krytan Killer
Jan 11: Kill Variety
Jan 13: Ascalonian Killer
Jan 14: Story Dungeon
Jan 15: Puzzle Jumper
Jan 16: Aquatic Killer
Jan 17: Dungeon
Jan 18: Shiverpeaks Killer
Jan 20: Event Mentor
Jan 22: Fractal

That’s 21 days out of 30 that I could not get 10 AP without going out of WvW or going out of my way to hunt things in WvW. One day would even drop me to 7, if I completed all the others.

I’ll also add that depending on the servers we’re fighting, Reviver and Invasion Defender were a toss-up too. Revives may not happen because either we’re getting steamrolled by zergs or we’re steamrolling others and nobody on my side needs revives (or I don’t get to them in time, or I’m the dead one). I missed several days of Invasion Defender too just because I couldn’t find 10 people to kill because the servers we were fighting were either small or ran away when we came to them.

I didn’t add those, though, because there’s another toss-up one now, too, and I’m being fair. Namely, Keep Capturer. Won’t always be a Keep to capture, and the servers we’re currently fighting both have populations that dwarf ours, so if they’re defending, it’s pretty hard to get in at times.

I also didn’t add in Karma Spender even though I can’t technically spend Karma in WvW, because it’s not significantly out of my way, and I have the karma spendy thing from collections.

You have to bear in mind that I’m not keeping in mind “Well, you’d still get at least some AP”, because right now, with three easy dailies, I get 10. If I can’t reliably get 10 without leaving WvW or going out of my way in WvW, then the previous system is inferior.

Edit: I also didn’t add in Daily Gatherer, which was every day, even though it could potentially require me to go out of my way in WvW. If I’m running with people that day, they’re not going to stop and wait for me to hit some rocks or chop down a tree. If I’m running with a zerg, I have to stay with the zerg.

Filaha.1678:

That’s 21 days out of 30 that I could not get 10 AP without going out of WvW or going out of my way to hunt things in WvW. One day would even drop me to 7, if I completed all the others.

Nice. Guess what? For PvE players, getting 10 AP’s without going into WvW or sPvP was impossible for 30 days out of 30.
Try again.

Astralporing.1957:

Filaha.1678:

That’s 21 days out of 30 that I could not get 10 AP without going out of WvW or going out of my way to hunt things in WvW. One day would even drop me to 7, if I completed all the others.

Nice. Guess what? For PvE players, getting 10 AP’s without going into WvW or sPvP was impossible for 30 days out of 30.
Try again.

Why is it impossible?

Because out of 12, 2 could only be done in WvW and 2 only in PvP. Are you paying attention? This is about the previous system.

Astralporing.1957:

Filaha.1678:

That’s 21 days out of 30 that I could not get 10 AP without going out of WvW or going out of my way to hunt things in WvW. One day would even drop me to 7, if I completed all the others.

Nice. Guess what? For PvE players, getting 10 AP’s without going into WvW or sPvP was impossible for 30 days out of 30.
Try again.

Thank you for pointing that out.

Because now PVE players can get 10 AP without setting foot into WvW or PvP ever, now making it possible for them to get the maximum available AP rewards without having to set foot into the other two game modes.

I don’t need to try again, because you happily just aided me in proving that this system is superior for people who wanted to get the maximum amount of AP but didn’t want to leave PVE.

Filaha.1678:

this system is superior for people who wanted to get the maximum amount of AP but didn’t want to leave PVE.

I am glad that this 1% will now be a lot happier than the other 90% of casual PvEers who were getting 5-8 AP daily in the old system just for playing the game and without wasting any time on pet tricks. That’s a great way to retain players, I agree.

/sarcasm

Lishtenbird.2814:

Filaha.1678:

this system is superior for people who wanted to get the maximum amount of AP but didn’t want to leave PVE.

I am glad that this 1% will now be a lot happier than the other 90% of casual PvEers who were getting 5-8 AP daily in the old system just for playing the game and without wasting any time on pet tricks. That’s a great way to retain players, I agree.

/sarcasm

Proof of numbers, please.

Eirdyne.9843:

I think we’ve reached the end of where this game can go.
- Anet disregards its player base as if it were the company mission statement.
- We have A+ Plus cooperate manipulation of the player by using Carrots on a Stick… Blow up LA, then do this whole story with the Zephyrites to say it will be fixed. Blow up the Zephyrites with expectation that is coming back. Give us Super Adventure Box. Take away Super Adventure Box, but say it will be coming back. Give us a perfectly working LS and trait system, then break the first and make the other outlandishly expensive (where it was not before). Cripple new characters. Do absolutely no new content for years in terms of dungeons . Where a new world boss is added copy and paste the same static timer based content under the veil of it being ‘dynamic’ and an ‘event’. …blah blah blah blah. It is coming to the point where we enjoy the game because it still responds the same way it used to when we press WASD and buttons 1 through 8 are still functioning. Nothing else is going on. They just employed this new person from Disney to the team, but Disney is the one that employed J. J. Abrams. Abrams butchered Star Trek and is now heading out to give rending what’s left of Star Wars apart. I wouldn’t want anything connected with Disney without a hazmat suit. Anet’s plan seems to be to push the plane into a steam spiraling nose dive gradually while informing everyone everything’s just fine because it’s gradual.

Good example of why the existence of corporations needs to be reexamined by society, and changes forced upon them.

These people are sociopaths.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Filaha.1678:

this system is superior for people who wanted to get the maximum amount of AP but didn’t want to leave PVE.

I am glad that this 1% will now be a lot happier than the other 90% of casual PvEers who were getting 5-8 AP daily in the old system just for playing the game and without wasting any time on pet tricks. That’s a great way to retain players, I agree.

/sarcasm

You are seriously crying too much, daily takes at most 15mins in the new system – if you want the 10 AP suck it up and do it, if you don’t then you’re getting the Laurels etc automaticly anyway so no real loss.
Also what are the other 9% of people doing/feeling? We should take full advantage of your oracle powers while you’re here – what will be the outcome of the UK May 2015 General Election? (I hear its too close to call but your powers might shine a light ^^)

Coulter.2315:

Lishtenbird.2814:

Filaha.1678:

this system is superior for people who wanted to get the maximum amount of AP but didn’t want to leave PVE.

I am glad that this 1% will now be a lot happier than the other 90% of casual PvEers who were getting 5-8 AP daily in the old system just for playing the game and without wasting any time on pet tricks. That’s a great way to retain players, I agree.

/sarcasm

You are seriously crying too much, daily takes at most 15mins in the new system – if you want the 10 AP suck it up and do it, if you don’t then you’re getting the Laurels etc automaticly anyway so no real loss.
Also what are the other 9% of people doing/feeling? We should take full advantage of your oracle powers while you’re here – what will be the outcome of the UK May 2015 General Election? (I hear its too close to call but your powers might shine a light ^^)

^LOL!

I dont get why this thread has devolved into ranting about the daily system. Theres already another thread about that, and its just dailies, not really a big deal. Sure it could be better but I think both the old and the new had their own problems and whereas the changes people want havent come it hasnt gotten much worse, its just changed.

The topic starter with a lot of good points, and it really doesnt make sense to focus on this one. Play How I Want is gone when you look at how uneven rewards are, and how few players are playing in WvW due to the lack of any incentive. Its also somewhat gone because due to inflation for new players and just in general, things cost more and without good rewards on a regular basis its hard to keep up while doing things you like doing. This doesnt mean everyone should be able to get a legendary just doing what they want, but they should be able to enjoy the game, get some cool skins, and have fun. Part of the reason this doesnt happen is because Anet hasn’t fully balanced the game in terms of rewards or RNG. Additionally some of the rewarding events and such are just massive zergs and stuff which many people don’t like, although that’s hard to avoid. But another major part of this game are people who get influenced by things like other people having legendarys, the so called “Meta” and basically grind in general. Its hard not to feel like your way of playing is being attacked when you see others just doing the grind to get cool stuff. Most of the things like ascended are not necessary and so for those items play how you want is still alive. But at the same time the concept of diversifying and equalizing rewards still applies because people shouldnt constantly feel like they need to change play styles.

Dailies is an example of this kind of effect where people want the rewards but dont want to switch playstyles. IMO its more of a problem on players than Anet because the rewards are fairly diversified and evenly applied to different playstyles, although, WvW daily to me is harder than pve.

I disagree.

The game is play how you want, but remember:

Every game ever is going to favor pure damage over any and all else in PvE / player vs AI.
PvP is going to vary depending upon skill and team composition.

Sure, home instances was one of those areas that totally flopped,
GvG was forgotten, and dungeons abandoned; but the game is still clearly play how you want.

Filaha.1678:

Lishtenbird.2814:

Filaha.1678:

this system is superior for people who wanted to get the maximum amount of AP but didn’t want to leave PVE.

I am glad that this 1% will now be a lot happier than the other 90% of casual PvEers who were getting 5-8 AP daily in the old system just for playing the game and without wasting any time on pet tricks. That’s a great way to retain players, I agree.

/sarcasm

Proof of numbers, please.

• Rank 1-100: 26500AP – 25100AP
• Rank 100-1000: 25100AP – 21750AP
• Rank 90%: 21750AP – 4130AP
• Rank 50%: 850AP

https://leaderboards.guildwars2.com/en/eu/achievements/

Even if dead-set AP hunters are more than 1% of population, they’re a clear minority.

Coulter.2315:

You are seriously crying too much, daily takes at most 15mins in the new system – if you want the 10 AP suck it up and do it, if you don’t then you’re getting the Laurels etc automaticly anyway so no real loss.

All I want is my 5-8AP for 0 minutes of dedicated AP farming a day. “15 minutes” is a clear loss for me, since it’s almost 2% of my real-life day and a far larger percent of my available evening gameplay.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Filaha.1678:

this system is superior for people who wanted to get the maximum amount of AP but didn’t want to leave PVE.

I am glad that this 1% will now be a lot happier than the other 90% of casual PvEers who were getting 5-8 AP daily in the old system just for playing the game and without wasting any time on pet tricks. That’s a great way to retain players, I agree.

/sarcasm

You can proved 90% of the casuals were getting 5-8 ap daily in the old system? I’d be interested to see that.

Can you prove that half of them cared at all?

It’s very easy to say people were getting achievement points by doing nothing, because that’s what was happening. Anet decided to actually make people do something to get achievement points, while giving them the other rewards for free.

I think this is a good thing. Others seem to agree. Others disagree as well. I’m going to guess the majority don’t see it as a bad thing. Why? Because when the majority sees ssomething, you get far more of an outcry than this has been, not just here but on reddit.

Vayne.8563:

You can proved 90% of the casuals were getting 5-8 ap daily in the old system? I’d be interested to see that.

Vayne.8563:

It’s very easy to say people were getting achievement points by doing nothing, because that’s what was happening. Anet decided to actually make people do something to get achievement points, while giving them the other rewards for free.

We were doing “something” before. You couldn’t get AP simply by logging in, you couldn’t do “nothing”. You had to… surprise! – PLAY the game daily to get daily APs. That’s why they’re called “dailies”. If you were running around the world, killing stuff (naturally applying condies and dodging), gathering mats, for a considerable time, you were boosting ANet’s daily time metrics and getting your APs for playing the game. Would you really argue that people who were actively playing PvE (and not chatting in LA) for 30-60 minutes an evening were not getting AP?

The problem is that now, to get any daily AP, you have to perform pet tricks do specific things instead of doing something. Is it hard to see what people do not like?

Quote from the “I dislike the new dailies” thread for those who want to focus on the daily system:

Lishtenbird.2814:

Okay, my review of the new system after “testing”.

Likes:

• More tomes of knowledge, both in login rewards and achievement chests.
• Passable XP containers – can do on level 80 and pass to alts.
• Less RNG in when you get BLTC items.
• Has specific things to focus on if I simply want “something” to do.
• Choice of the form of the final reward – choose laurels, tomes, ascended – whatever you need at the moment!

Neutral:

• Login rewards – sounds cheap to me (and a step towards “precursors for AFKing in LA”), but as long as it pulls the metrics in the required way…

Dislikes:

• “3 or nothing” AP.
  • You can no more get some AP by simply playing, and full 10 AP is not the point.
  • Fix – Daily Completionist – introduce tiers of rewards, like with many other achievements – the system is already in place! These can be 1 AP for one daily, 5 AP for 2 dailies, 10 AP for 3 dailies (or other reverse combos, like 5-8-10). You don’t feel (that) forced to do the 3rd daily even if it’s PvP/WvW only.
• Far too specific dailies. This punishes players who play relatively long (and contribute to metrics!) but don’t want to do specific things.
  • Fix 1 – give an excluding choice of doing a specific short achievement or a generic long achievement. Example: 1 achievement “Gather 4 plants in Ascalon, or gather 20 of anything anywhere.”
  • Fix 2 – add generic achievements which have no chests but count towards Daily Completionist. Example: 2 achievements, “Gather 4 plants in Ascalon” with a chest and “Gather 10 of anything anywhere” without a chest.
• “Idiotic” dailies – dailies which make me feel like an idiot, or like a child who has to go buy a bottle of milk for his insane old grandma while there’s a full fridge of milk already.
  • Fix – Daily Vista – no ideas… it’s just… eeewh. How about renaming to Daily Nice View and adding “or kill 20 monsters for a picturesque landscape of corpses”? Or… ambients?
  • Fix – Daily Forager/Miner/Logger – see above, adding optional larger but generic achievement at least makes more sense.
• Detrimental dailies – dailies which cause distress because of too many players focusing on them.
  • Fix 1 – Daily Map Events – remove from starter zones entirely to let new players complete events instead of competing for tags with zergs.
  • Fix 2 – Daily Map Events – change to Daily Zone Events to counter zergs which faceroll poorly scaling content. Most likely won’t help because of the megaserver system.
  • Fix 3 – Daily Map Events – rotate between players. Undesirable since completing PvE with friends is good.
  • Fix 4 – Daily Map Events – change to Daily Zone Level N-M (or higher) Events. Having to do Queensdale events instead of Dry Top makes me feel like an idiot (sorry). Undesirable because of low-level characters, but it’s like that now anyway.
  • Fix – Daily PvP Profession Win – rotate professions randomly for each player. Unlike PvE dailies which are good to be completed together, PvP dailies should encourage players to have different goals for balanced team composition. And “profession win” type of daily is by itself more of a cause of frustration rather than a goal.
  • Fix – Daily WvW Veteran Creature Slayer – remove not to disrupt productive play.
  • Fix – Daily Fractal Tier N – replace to “Tier N or higher”, similar to “Exotic Crafter” which works for ascended crafting too. Missing a reward because you did fractal 49/50 instead of 1 feels… silly.
  • Fix – Daily World Boss ABC – replace with “Daily World Boss (any)”, or at least large subsets of world bosses. Time restrictions are bad, time restrictions with no in-game schedule – twice as bad.
• Not enough PvE choices. We all know that it’s a mainly PvE game, okay?
  • If I don’t want to play PvP now, I won’t. If I don’t want to play WvW now, I won’t. “Encouraging” me to play other modes leads to frustration and feeling of being forced to jump through someone’s hoops.

I hope that’s useful and I’m not too late for the Monthly Feedback Gatherer.