Guild Wars 2

IndigoSundown.5419:

Galen Grey.4709:

Ashen.2907:

I know that studies have shown this. Enjoyment of an activity, the activity itself, can be influenced by the associated rewards. An activity that might otherwise be boring can become enjoyable due to associated rewards.

I would geniuninly be interested in reading this study, you have a link or some pointers on how I can find it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29

snip…

http://www.goodgamesbydesign.com/2011/07/why-games-work-the-science-of-learning/

snip..

I’ve read the links you provided by ehh they’re not saying reward can boring game play fun theyre actually saying the exact opposite.

In case of flow and gameplay the article states:
“This is especially true since the primary goal of games is to create entertainment through intrinsic motivation, which is related to flow. Through the balance of skill and challenge the player’s brain is aroused, with attention engaged and motivation high”

If like you state reward can make up for gameplay. In fact it links to this other study:
http://en.paperblog.com/the-positive-side-of-video-games-part-iii-294723/

that explicitly states:
“. In the Flow state, the experience of play is fluid and is intrinsically psychologically rewarding independent of scores or in-game successes (Csikszentmihalyi, 1991).”

now to be fair it doesnt explicity state that reward doesnt make game play fun its just the whole article is dedicated on how gameplay should be designed to be fun.

IndigoSundown.5419:

An extrinsic goal can serve as the motivation to drive someone into an activity in which they can then become fully immersed. That immersion enables flow, and the flow experience is often experienced as fun if reflected on. Remove that extrinsic motivation, and the task must provide enough intrinsic motivation to generate that immersion. Since repetitive MMO content might not serve to initiate the dopamine release inherent with facing/overcoming challenge or learning, intrinsic motivation to repeat content does not work for everyone.

I am sorry but you’re making conclusions that arent really there.

1. sure the extrinsic reward might motivate people to try an activity they then get fully immersed in but that doesnt necessarily mean extrinsic reward made a boring activity exciting there are many possible scenarios such as the activity in question was something the player never tried before and didnt know it was their sort of thing for example. This example fits in your scenario yet it doesnt say what you’re saying it says.

2. same with your second statement. sure “repetitive MMO content might not serve to initiate the dopamine release inherent with facing/overcoming challenge or learning, intrinsic motivation to repeat content does not work for everyone.” in no way shape or form suggests that an extrinsic motivation is going to make the content itself fun.

You’re attributing stuff to me I never said. For example I never said you can remove reward any you’ll be fine. I merely said reward cannot change the state of content like some suggested.

In short cause this is getting too long what you need to show is how introducing a reward can make content that’s boring suddenly become exciting again (the content itself not the fun that is to be had in opening up said reward) I just don’t think it does in any scenario.

Ashen.2907:

Galen Grey.4709:

Sure agreed, but can you point at one thing I stated is not fun? Cause afaik I really didnt.

Perhaps I am misinterpreting your point when you make statements to the effect that rewards do not, and have never, made content fun as a statement that the rewards are not fun. My assumption was that something that adds fun must be fun in itself (subjectively of course). So if rewards cannot add fun, for anyone, ever, then they cannot be fun for anyone, ever…or at least that was my take on some of your very absolute claims here.

Galen Grey.4709:

I would genuinely be interested in reading this study, you have a link or some pointers on how I can find it?

I attended a series of seminars for extra credit back in the mid 80’s where the topic (obviously not specific to MMOs) was addressed as part of a larger discussion of human motivation. I cannot find reference to it online and have not kept the material. As I cannot support the claim I will drop it.

Galen Grey.4709:

so then if didnt yourself experience a situation where a boring task become fun thanks to rewards associated with it is it safe for me to assume your whole argument is from observing other people or this study you mentioned above?

You have it backwards. I experienced plenty of situations where I enjoyed a task that would have been boring without the associated rewards. I have interacted with others whose experience was comparable to mine.

What is the basis for your argument that you know everyone’s subjective experience of what is fun for them ?

Okey trying to clarify. Rewards can be fun/make you happy. Those same rewards will not make content fun/make you happy playing that content. Ie I hate champion trains, I am not going to have fun zerging champions but I can be excited and enjoy opening champion bags. I still do it cause I love the trill of opening champion bags and I love and enjoy getting getting a good drop now and then and I enjoy making gold but all that is never going to lead to hey I am having so much fun attacking this champion cause I just dont enjoy that (disclaimer: fictitious example that could apply to any activity in the game depending on your specific tastes)

actually extra credits have a video that examples exactly the oppsite how extrinsic rewards dont make for engaging content
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h86g-XgUCA8

I already explained multiple times but anyway here goes again. if its true that rewards make content enjoyable you wouldnt have people complaining about grinding. Its also explained in that video I liked to you. he says it at about 4:45 where he says that ideally every part of a game should be interensic though that will never happen because we play for joy, we play to be engaged and entertained we dont play to kill time (which is what he is referring to by a grindy activity gating a reward ) If like you say a good reward can make boring content joyous, engaging and entertained dont you think somewhere in the video they’d mention that better rewards might be a solution rather then showing a poor sad guy doing repeated activity for a reward?

And again there is a catch 22, grind requires boredom, if the content is engaging people will not consider it grindy. Now you endure grind for a reward you think is worthy. If say in gw2 an activity you find boring rewards say 1 silver every 10 minutes you’re not going to do it right? You’ll do an activity you enjoy that rewards as much or more for sure. So by definition very few people would ever complain about grind if it was true that rewards make content fun (very few cause there are always exceptions for various reason) where in fact its quite the opposite. I mean look at ascended gear in Gw2. How many people complain thats grindy and how many people stated that its not grindy at all its actually quite enjoyable. At the very least if the premise its true that should at the very least be equal though technically it should be an overwhelming majority that are having fun. yet it isnt the case.

Devata.6589:

Let me give one example to show that rewards do effect the way you have dun with an activity.

Imaging a fair without rewards or better imagine a lottery without rewards.

Okey sure. Now imaging if the fair instead of proving engaging activities had boring activities. Such as instead of hitting a target with a toy gun you had to count pebbles on a beach or leaves on a tree. Something that takes time and that’s an activity you dont enjoy. Maybe you really like that teddy bear and go through counting those pebbles but you’re not going to say wow generally I really hate counting pebbles but today I am having the time of my life.

Same thing with lotteries. No one enjoys paying the ticket price (which is like the only activity you get to do in a lottery) so much so how many times did you hear people stating the ticket price are cheap or fair? Or better yet assuming you dont actually win how many times did you hear people going ohh that was totally worthed! Simply speaking the joy of a lottery comes entirely from the prize (never mind there is no activity there for the prize to actually make fun)

I never denied rewards can be fun or be motivators for people to engage in activities they’d otherwise not get involved in. I just said if said activities are boring rewards are not going to change that.

This thread is taking epic proportions in the wrong direction, this game needs an expansion and let’s leave it at that.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Let me give one example to show that rewards do effect the way you have dun with an activity.

Imaging a fair without rewards or better imagine a lottery without rewards.

Okey sure. Now imaging if the fair instead of proving engaging activities had boring activities. Such as instead of hitting a target with a toy gun you had to count pebbles on a beach or leaves on a tree. Something that takes time and that’s an activity you dont enjoy. Maybe you really like that teddy bear and go through counting those pebbles but you’re not going to say wow generally I really hate counting pebbles but today I am having the time of my life.

Same thing with lotteries. No one enjoys paying the ticket price (which is like the only activity you get to do in a lottery) so much so how many times did you hear people stating the ticket price are cheap or fair? Or better yet assuming you dont actually win how many times did you hear people going ohh that was totally worthed! Simply speaking the joy of a lottery comes entirely from the prize (never mind there is no activity there for the prize to actually make fun)

I never denied rewards can be fun or be motivators for people to engage in activities they’d otherwise not get involved in. I just said if said activities are boring rewards are not going to change that.

I don’t say ‘the activities should be boring’ But the one enhances the other and yeah there are some activities where the activitie is boring but it can get exciting because of the reward. Like the lottery. There is no fun in picking a number and waiting to see if somebody else then names your number.. if that’s all there is. Now add a price and suddenly people get excited.

But overall the one simply enhances the other.

Galen Grey.4709:

Okey trying to clarify. Rewards can be fun/make you happy. Those same rewards will not make content fun/make you happy playing that content.

You are mistaken. The rewards can make content fun/make people happy playing that content. You might want to remember that you do not speak for everyone else on the planet…not even every other gamer on the planet. Just because, “rewards will not make content fun/make you happy playing that content,” is true for you does not mean that it is true for someone else.

Galen Grey.4709:

I already explained multiple times but anyway here goes again. if its true that rewards make content enjoyable you wouldnt have people complaining about grinding.

Sure you would. At no point did I claim that rewards make content fun for everyone. Obviously those for whom rewards are not sufficient to make otherwise boring content fun will complain about the boring content.

Galen Grey.4709:

And again there is a catch 22, grind requires boredom, if the content is engaging people will not consider it grindy.

Of course what is engaging to one person might very well be boring to another. Grind, fun, engaging, boring, etc are all completely subjective.

Galen Grey.4709:

You’re attributing stuff to me I never said. For example I never said you can remove reward any you’ll be fine. I merely said reward cannot change the state of content like some suggested.

In short cause this is getting too long what you need to show is how introducing a reward can make content that’s boring suddenly become exciting again (the content itself not the fun that is to be had in opening up said reward) I just don’t think it does in any scenario.

I’ve seen no one claiming you said, “You can remove reward and you’ll be fine.” The claim was that you said rewards don’t make content fun. You’re apparently still claiming this, unless, “Reward cannot change the state of content” means something else. Reward does not change the “state” of content, whatever that is.

Reward can change the way the content is experienced, though. I’ve already described how reward can facilitate a fun experience, and that the process of completing content consists of before-during-after, with the whole generating the fun experience. I’ve given examples. You’re postulating that the parts of an experience can be separated from the perspective of every individual who could undergo a given experience. The burden of proof is on you, though we’re probably getting way off-topic.

Its obvious reward/lack of reward can increase engagement and fun. Its not the only thing, but it is one of the issues. While reward cant make a horrible task fun, it can make an ok task fun, or a fun task super exciting.

Also you can use rewards to set various goals, so as to guide people. But yeah, if people think reward is irrelevant to fun, they ve missed out on some very fun things.

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Let me give one example to show that rewards do effect the way you have dun with an activity.

Imaging a fair without rewards or better imagine a lottery without rewards.

Okey sure. Now imaging if the fair instead of proving engaging activities had boring activities. Such as instead of hitting a target with a toy gun you had to count pebbles on a beach or leaves on a tree. Something that takes time and that’s an activity you dont enjoy. Maybe you really like that teddy bear and go through counting those pebbles but you’re not going to say wow generally I really hate counting pebbles but today I am having the time of my life.

Same thing with lotteries. No one enjoys paying the ticket price (which is like the only activity you get to do in a lottery) so much so how many times did you hear people stating the ticket price are cheap or fair? Or better yet assuming you dont actually win how many times did you hear people going ohh that was totally worthed! Simply speaking the joy of a lottery comes entirely from the prize (never mind there is no activity there for the prize to actually make fun)

I never denied rewards can be fun or be motivators for people to engage in activities they’d otherwise not get involved in. I just said if said activities are boring rewards are not going to change that.

I don’t say ‘the activities should be boring’ But the one enhances the other and yeah there are some activities where the activitie is boring but it can get exciting because of the reward. Like the lottery. There is no fun in picking a number and waiting to see if somebody else then names your number.. if that’s all there is. Now add a price and suddenly people get excited.

But overall the one simply enhances the other.

are you sure whats fun there is picking the numbers ? Again if you dont win will you look back and say ohh boy I didnt win but I sure had fun picking the numbers! In a lottery all the joy and excitement one gets is simply the anticipation of getting the reward not the activity itself. In fact in my observation its often frustrating picking the numbers which is why websites like random.org have sections dedicated to lotteries so they come up with the numbers for you. This is especially true if you pool with other people. I did it several times, I would imagine most people did it at some point in time. In anycase its generally people trying to offload the number picking to someone else rather then trying to make sure they’re the ones to pick the numbers simply because they’re not finding the activity itself fun they only care about the reward.

A better argument would be checking your numbers with the winning numbers now everyone wants to do that and that might indeed prove you right as I can see people who even lost actually saying they had fun checking the numbers. that being said I do think its a bit tricky to say conclusively just because checking the numbers is basically touching with the reward, there is the rush of being so close to the reward and psychologically on a subconscious level what we know is we’re getting a rush you cant tell whats really causing the rush.

Ashen.2907:

Galen Grey.4709:

Okey trying to clarify. Rewards can be fun/make you happy. Those same rewards will not make content fun/make you happy playing that content.

You are mistaken. The rewards can make content fun/make people happy playing that content. You might want to remember that you do not speak for everyone else on the planet…not even every other gamer on the planet. Just because, “rewards will not make content fun/make you happy playing that content,” is true for you does not mean that it is true for someone else.

why do you keep accusing me of speaking about what everyone else on the planet likes? can you point out one place where I am doing that ?

I am only stating my opinion on the subject and which observations I feel support my opinion.

And if in your opinion that means you’re talking for everyone else then arent you doing exactly the same thing?

Ashen.2907:

Galen Grey.4709:

I already explained multiple times but anyway here goes again. if its true that rewards make content enjoyable you wouldnt have people complaining about grinding.

Sure you would. At no point did I claim that rewards make content fun for everyone. Obviously those for whom rewards are not sufficient to make otherwise boring content fun will complain about the boring content.

Okey fair enough..so lets make this really simple. You did say " I experienced plenty of situations where I enjoyed a task that would have been boring without the associated rewards. I have interacted with others whose experience was comparable to mine." Now you never stated how many others you were talking about so its up to you to come up with how common this phenomena is in your opinion. Lets say for the sake of argument its extremely uncommon That would still imply it happens a few times. So lets take whats arguably the most sought after reward in Gw2 Ascended gear (not saying it is the best reward only that because of the feedback and how much uproar it caused its clearly one of the most sought after rewards. Not my opinion but the forums opinion. And just so there is no misunderstand and you dont think I am projecting my believes on others as usual please be aware I dont care about ascended gear at all. I only have 3 pieces which I got a couple of months ago just to help some guildies with fractals. Anyhow back on subject. If what you’re saying is true the most sought after reward should at least have some people who are happy with the content they have to play in order to get that reward. Now one can find a ton of posts against said content. All I am asking you to do is find 1 that defends the content as is.

Now keep in mind like you correctly say people like all sorts of content so there are people who naturally like the content irrespective of the reward. Yet I personally never seen 1 single post defending the content as is. Even people who defend Ascended gear do so by providing alternative strategies (such as dont farm but play what content you enjoy and you’ll ultimately get enough to get your ascended gear)

how would you explain that if in deed the reward makes content fun?

Ashen.2907:

Galen Grey.4709:

And again there is a catch 22, grind requires boredom, if the content is engaging people will not consider it grindy.

Of course what is engaging to one person might very well be boring to another. Grind, fun, engaging, boring, etc are all completely subjective.

What content feels grindy / repetitive / fun / engaging / boring is subjective
what grindy / repetitive / fun / engaging and boring mean is not.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Galen Grey.4709:

You’re attributing stuff to me I never said. For example I never said you can remove reward any you’ll be fine. I merely said reward cannot change the state of content like some suggested.

In short cause this is getting too long what you need to show is how introducing a reward can make content that’s boring suddenly become exciting again (the content itself not the fun that is to be had in opening up said reward) I just don’t think it does in any scenario.

I’ve seen no one claiming you said, “You can remove reward and you’ll be fine.” The claim was that you said rewards don’t make content fun. You’re apparently still claiming this, unless, “Reward cannot change the state of content” means something else. Reward does not change the “state” of content, whatever that is.

Reward can change the way the content is experienced, though. I’ve already described how reward can facilitate a fun experience, and that the process of completing content consists of before-during-after, with the whole generating the fun experience. I’ve given examples. You’re postulating that the parts of an experience can be separated from the perspective of every individual who could undergo a given experience. The burden of proof is on you, though we’re probably getting way off-topic.

Okey lets forget psychology for a little while.

let me come up with a task most people will most likely find boring say killing 1 million dolyaks. now lets come up with the best reward I can think of… say a token that can be exchanged for any item in the game including a legendary. Do you really believe now some people will have the time of their life killing dolyaks? Cause I am sure some will endure it and go through it but i am also sure in this fictitious scenario we’d see tons of posts about swinging swords and not one suggesting they do the same thing but this time with moa cause they really had fun going after the dolyaks.

phys.7689:

Its obvious reward/lack of reward can increase engagement and fun. Its not the only thing, but it is one of the issues. While reward cant make a horrible task fun, it can make an ok task fun, or a fun task super exciting.

Also you can use rewards to set various goals, so as to guide people. But yeah, if people think reward is irrelevant to fun, they ve missed out on some very fun things.

I nearly completely agree with this just one little detail that bugs me.

I feel they compliment each other they dont really effect each other directly.

a horrible task + a great reward will not make for a fun experience
an okey task + a great reward will make more of a fun experience then an okey task and an okey reward but the better reward is not going to make the task more intrinsically reward which is the source of fun when it comes to tasks.

I’ll drop my 2 cents: it’s not like I would be against new content being introduced, but I would be much happier if everything already present in the game was polished, refined, bugfixed and balanced.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

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are you sure whats fun there is picking the numbers ? Again if you dont win will you look back and say ohh boy I didnt win but I sure had fun picking the numbers! In a lottery all the joy and excitement one gets is simply the anticipation of getting the reward not the activity itself. In fact in my observation its often frustrating picking the numbers which is why websites like random.org have sections dedicated to lotteries so they come up with the numbers for you. This is especially true if you pool with other people. I did it several times, I would imagine most people did it at some point in time. In anycase its generally people trying to offload the number picking to someone else rather then trying to make sure they’re the ones to pick the numbers simply because they’re not finding the activity itself fun they only care about the reward.

A better argument would be checking your numbers with the winning numbers now everyone wants to do that and that might indeed prove you right as I can see people who even lost actually saying they had fun checking the numbers. that being said I do think its a bit tricky to say conclusively just because checking the numbers is basically touching with the reward, there is the rush of being so close to the reward and psychologically on a subconscious level what we know is we’re getting a rush you cant tell whats really causing the rush.

You are not picking the number yourself. You are waiting for somebody else to pick the number. And that is fun because there is tension.. will you win (that reward!) or will some other person win (that reward). Take that reward out of the equation and no there really is no fun any-more.

“In a lottery all the joy and excitement one gets is simply the anticipation of getting the reward not the activity itself.” So you have an activity that by itself is not great. However because of the anticipation of getting the reward it becomes excited. There you go. That is what I (and some others here) are saying. And when you combine the both it can get even better.

“because they’re not finding the activity itself fun they only care about the reward.” but still you have fun doing it because of the excited for the reward.

So a good reward can increase the fun on an activity and might even get you excited while doing an activity that by itself is boring.. Like grinding one type of mobs for a drop (to go back to the example this all started with).

Now we are back where we stared. “there is the rush of being so close to the reward and psychologically on a subconscious level what we know is we’re getting a rush” Every time you kill that mob or do that dungeon or whatever there is that rush and every time you do it again there is another.. or mathematically a bigger change it will drop.

While with money (or any other currency like a list of achievements) you simply see it’s going up slowly and then you buy it so no excitement or rush whatsoever, with specific rewards this rush, this tension this excitement is added to any activity. To boring activities and to nice activities. Of course that’s only if you are going for the reward but that’s how I like to play. Working toward goals and that goal is then the reward. That can be mini’s, mounts, skins whatever. Not grinding gold (or another currency) to buy my ‘goal’.

In addition it adds value to the reward. You did this work, most people where not willing to do that so they do not have it but you where rewarded for you efforts and so now are one of those who has that skin / mini / mount whatever.

And for those who prefer to grind gold that’s still an option for all items that are not account-bound. It might however be more expensive because there are less people getting the drop by pure luck. Most drops will be for people working towards the items.

Galen Grey.4709:

Ashen.2907:

Galen Grey.4709:

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Galen Grey.4709:

Galen Grey.4709:

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Okey fair enough..so lets make this really simple. You did say " I experienced plenty of situations where I enjoyed a task that would have been boring without the associated rewards. I have interacted with others whose experience was comparable to mine." Now you never stated how many others you were talking about so its up to you to come up with how common this phenomena is in your opinion. Lets say for the sake of argument its extremely uncommon That would still imply it happens a few times. So lets take whats arguably the most sought after reward in Gw2 Ascended gear (not saying it is the best reward only that because of the feedback and how much uproar it caused its clearly one of the most sought after rewards. Not my opinion but the forums opinion. And just so there is no misunderstand and you dont think I am projecting my believes on others as usual please be aware I dont care about ascended gear at all. I only have 3 pieces which I got a couple of months ago just to help some guildies with fractals. Anyhow back on subject. If what you’re saying is true the most sought after reward should at least have some people who are happy with the content they have to play in order to get that reward. Now one can find a ton of posts against said content. All I am asking you to do is find 1 that defends the content as is.

Now keep in mind like you correctly say people like all sorts of content so there are people who naturally like the content irrespective of the reward. Yet I personally never seen 1 single post defending the content as is. Even people who defend Ascended gear do so by providing alternative strategies (such as dont farm but play what content you enjoy and you’ll ultimately get enough to get your ascended gear)

how would you explain that if in deed the reward makes content fun?

Ashen.2907:

Galen Grey.4709:

And again there is a catch 22, grind requires boredom, if the content is engaging people will not consider it grindy.

Of course what is engaging to one person might very well be boring to another. Grind, fun, engaging, boring, etc are all completely subjective.

What content feels grindy / repetitive / fun / engaging / boring is subjective
what grindy / repetitive / fun / engaging and boring mean is not.

First of all the ascended example is likely the worse one as it’s an item many people did not want in the game. People did not want a tier-grind. But lets forget that for a moment.

This whole discussion started with placing specific rewards behind specific content. Ascended stuff is not a specific reward behind specific content. Best you can do to get it as a reward for doing content is doing fractals (what is already not specific because you get just thrown in a random game) and then there is a possibility some ascended thing drops (nothing specific).

It’s not like, do JP x and there it is possible that ascended item Y drops. No, it are general drops. Or the other option is grinding gold to level your craft to 500 and then grind gold for mats, farm mats and with time-gated limitations you can then make the item you want.

So this is not the specific rewards for specific content we where talking about. Plus it are items people do not want in the game.

Another thing is that the rewards need to feel special, Better said.. you should want the reward. Special or rare being one of the criteria depending on the person, looks can be another.

Oow and yes it’s possible to have content that is fun just for the content (for me that are JP’s, but that won’t get me an ascended set). Still specific rewards would make that specific content even more fun. The ’ play what you want’ was one of the reason why we had the discussion if you remember. Y:’ Play the way you want’ Me:‘I like to hunt down rewards, that’s how I like to play that’ s what it makes the content fun’ Y:‘rewards don’t make content fun.’

Galen Grey.4709:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Galen Grey.4709:

You’re attributing stuff to me I never said. For example I never said you can remove reward any you’ll be fine. I merely said reward cannot change the state of content like some suggested.

In short cause this is getting too long what you need to show is how introducing a reward can make content that’s boring suddenly become exciting again (the content itself not the fun that is to be had in opening up said reward) I just don’t think it does in any scenario.

I’ve seen no one claiming you said, “You can remove reward and you’ll be fine.” The claim was that you said rewards don’t make content fun. You’re apparently still claiming this, unless, “Reward cannot change the state of content” means something else. Reward does not change the “state” of content, whatever that is.

Reward can change the way the content is experienced, though. I’ve already described how reward can facilitate a fun experience, and that the process of completing content consists of before-during-after, with the whole generating the fun experience. I’ve given examples. You’re postulating that the parts of an experience can be separated from the perspective of every individual who could undergo a given experience. The burden of proof is on you, though we’re probably getting way off-topic.

Okey lets forget psychology for a little while.

let me come up with a task most people will most likely find boring say killing 1 million dolyaks. now lets come up with the best reward I can think of… say a token that can be exchanged for any item in the game including a legendary. Do you really believe now some people will have the time of their life killing dolyaks? Cause I am sure some will endure it and go through it but i am also sure in this fictitious scenario we’d see tons of posts about swinging swords and not one suggesting they do the same thing but this time with moa cause they really had fun going after the dolyaks.

“say a token that can be exchanged for any item in the game including a legendary”
Specific reward for specific content remember, not currency. And ‘you have to kill it 1 million times’ is exactly the same as the grinding gold.. You see it slowly go up plus 1 million is a little (extremely) over the top I think’ on the other hand that number is also depended on how much you would find the mobs.

Lets say there is one dolyak mount available (many mounts but one dolyak) and it can only drop from dolyak who are available or farmable in a specific area in PvE. Only those dolyaks can drop that mount with a drop-rate of 1 / 5000. So then the task is farming dolyaks. Pretty boring. And yes I think the activity will become more fun for many people simply because of rush that you know it might drop on the next dolyak you kill.

Frostfang.5109:

If u take a look at the minis in u’r bank. There is a “mysterious Dragon” (or something similar – looks like an asian dragon) there that havn’t been released yet. If u do the math on the latest minis release dates of the minis, one can figure that there could be release of new content or information on new content in two weeks.

That is my speculation at least….

Probably dragon-bash.

Maybe a hint for something less tyrian?

There are many new things that look really Asian (way more than Zephyr Sanctum, like for example… A Canthan ship) and, as stated on reddit, (beginning at 49.15) he is creating new musics for LS2, and he is flying to a “faraway land to record exotic music”
As stated on reddit:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/c/4223496

And here we have it: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/prepare-for-the-festival-of-the-four-winds/

Happy now? ^^

lordkrall.7241:

And here we have it: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/prepare-for-the-festival-of-the-four-winds/

Happy now? ^^

Not really—seems to be another recycle.

Blude.6812:

Not really—seems to be another recycle.

And yet it is something people have wanted since last time it was around.

And to be fair the thread seems to be more about the silence and lack of updates, and now we got updates and thus most people should be happy.

Blude.6812:

lordkrall.7241:

And here we have it: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/prepare-for-the-festival-of-the-four-winds/

Happy now? ^^

Not really—seems to be another recycle.

What a surprise. Annual events occur annually.

[sarcasm]

What? How dare they! Only new permanent content is true content. We demand all annual events to occur at all times! Wintersday, Halloween, Dragon Bash, the Bazaar everything should occur at all times.

[/sarcasm]

Yay for recycled content!

/sarcasm

lordkrall.7241:

Blude.6812:

Not really—seems to be another recycle.

And yet it is something people have wanted since last time it was around.

And to be fair the thread seems to be more about the silence and lack of updates, and now we got updates and thus most people should be happy.

Did you really read the thread? It’s mainly about some new permanent content. So expansions and that sort (and how it should / could be implemented). It’s not about the next iteration of temporary content known as the LS. And even yearly returning events in GW2 are half temporary because half of the activities and rewards do not return.. At least they didn’t for Halloween and Wintersday. Still I am happy it’s not yet LS S2 as that may stay away for as long as possible. Don’t want the feeling of ‘need to be done now or else you’ll lose out forever’.
In a way Anet was able to combine the worse effects of sub-based games (timer over your head.. play now you did pay for it) and the cash-shop focus from F2P games.

Just would like a nice good expansion or at lease expansion-like content. But not like the ‘expansion-like’ Anet definition content we already got before. Preferably just an expansion because even if they would put that content in the LS you would still see many negative side-effects from the fact that they need to generate the money for that content with the cash-shop. With an expansion there is at least no need for that.

Behellagh.1468:

Blude.6812:

lordkrall.7241:

And here we have it: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/prepare-for-the-festival-of-the-four-winds/

Happy now? ^^

Not really—seems to be another recycle.

What a surprise. Annual events occur annually.

[sarcasm]

What? How dare they! Only new permanent content is true content. We demand all annual events to occur at all times! Wintersday, Halloween, Dragon Bash, the Bazaar everything should occur at all times.

[/sarcasm]

Oow annual events are fine. Only complain about that is that parts where temporary, better add new stuff (like with Halloween and Wintersday just add events, don’t remove stuff and decorate also the rest of the world, not only LA). But except for that I am fine with annual events. It however is not the added new permanent content many people are asking for in this thread.

Actually this tread was about new content, now it’s discussing recycled content with a few location changes. This is not new content.
So back to the original question-where’s the new content and when can we expect ti.

Galen Grey.4709:

In short cause this is getting too long what you need to show is how introducing a reward can make content that’s boring suddenly become exciting again (the content itself not the fun that is to be had in opening up said reward) I just don’t think it does in any scenario.

Galen Grey.4709:

let me come up with a task most people will most likely find boring say killing 1 million dolyaks. now lets come up with the best reward I can think of… say a token that can be exchanged for any item in the game including a legendary. Do you really believe now some people will have the time of their life killing dolyaks? Cause I am sure some will endure it and go through it but i am also sure in this fictitious scenario we’d see tons of posts about swinging swords and not one suggesting they do the same thing but this time with moa cause they really had fun going after the dolyaks.

Mine is not an absolute position. I am only postulating that rewards can for some people in some circumstances generate an experience of fun in content they might otherwise find boring. This is much more likely to occur if completing that content requires more of one’s attention than killing a Dolyak. You might recall that I asked you to speculate as to why a main tank found raid content he professed to enjoy during the run in which he later got his last tier piece, and professed it to be boring the very next week. Surely you’ll admit that tanking a raid would engage someone more than killing Dolyaks. As I recall, you didn’t respond to that invitation.

When you post things like “rewards do not make content fun” or “I just don’t think it does under any scenario.” (emphasis mine), your position, as stated, is an absolute position. An example of a non-existent task that is as non-engaging as you can imagine does not constitute any kind of proof. No finite number of examples, no matter their plausibility, constitutes proof for an absolute position. However, one counter-example can disprove an absolute position.

Now, if you’d said "Rewards don’t make content fun for me (or for some subset of everyone, such as “for me and my friends”) under any circumstances, your position would not be absolute, and this conversation would not have started.

Season 2 should be Anet’s chance to redeem the mistakes they made in Season 1 aka too much temporary content. Last season was 80% temporary, 20% permanent. Don’t believe me? Look at how much actual permanent content is in this game. Its a joke. Those temp/perm ratio’s should be switched.

SAB should be permanent and so should the queens gauntlet. These other festivals and what not are annual activities.

I think the best description I have heard for the LS was this:

“It’s a playable commercial” meant to encourage sales from the Gem Shop.

I agree with that.
The LS and it’s “content” (drops, items, shineys etc) was either behind horrid grind and massive time sink/investment or a tortuous RNG system meant to discourage playing the game and rather open the wallet and simply buy in to enjoy the current theme of the LS – at least, IMO as that’s what I experienced with the LS.

Seeing this “Festival” return makes me wonder; will we see earn-able content that is FUN to get? Or will it be a massive grind and/or based off crappy RNG? Will we be able to partake in said festivities and walk away with some of the no doubt Limited Time offerings without having to hit the Gem Store? —- If not, then this is again fitting to the description of the players “Playing a commercial” – again, IMO.
This is opposite of how GW1 was pre-cash shop too. Grabbing a few friends and running through some fun, light hearted content and walking away with that seasons goodies was a blast. I never felt I had to “Work to enjoy” the festival, and nor did I feel I had to “Buy in” to have a good time.

I’m guessing though, that’s it will be more of the same old same old here. Festival is ON! YAY! New skins in Gem Shop this week only! Everyone is happy… not.

In the spirit of fairness; here’s how you monetize a festival. You hold the festival and make ALL items easily obtainable IN game. Not through grind, not through RNG, but through IN game activities. Then, next year when the festival is up again, you put up last years items IN the Gem Shop for those that either missed out on last years items or simply didn’t, at the time, want them.
With that, you have a happy player base that is enjoying the content without feeling they are being nickle and dimed WHILE providing a service to those that missed out on last years events. You also now show you have your eyes set on long term stability vs short term gains. — as always though, IMO.

SkylightMoon.1980:

Season 2 should be Anet’s chance to redeem the mistakes they made in Season 1 aka too much temporary content. Last season was 80% temporary, 20% permanent. Don’t believe me? Look at how much actual permanent content is in this game. Its a joke. Those temp/perm ratio’s should be switched.

SAB should be permanent and so should the queens gauntlet. These other festivals and what not are annual activities.

No offense but Season 2 should not be Anet’s chance to redeem the mistake, the second half of season 1 should. Since the beginning (back when releases where once a month) these complains about temporary content, and grindy content (lists of achievements to complete) have been there.

Colin first said.. well we go to two weeks but also have bigger teams so the content will become better. In fact it got worse because the list of temporary stuff got bigger and there was a shorter time before the next patch was there. Exactly that what so many people disliked. Then after complains kept poring in he did say we would see more permanent content. What we did get where some additions like the JP and the World boss and some cosmetic changes that where permanent but the LS stuff itself was still just temporary.

Of course you can always say ‘well the next time’ but in all honestly, the ‘time to get it right’ was the second half of season 1, not season 2.

Besides that I have never been a big fan of the LS since the beginning. I do believe that it is possible to release the stuff temporary, simply make the story so that the event has no activities and rewards linked to it but what is left has. I also believe they could kitten expansion-like content in the LS like races and maps. To be honest I am surprised they didn’t because they promised they would.

Biggest problem I would still have even if they did all these things is that if they release it like that it means there main focus on generating income would still be the cash-shop. And a focus on that keeps having it negative side-effects. Collecting mini’s is not a game-play element but a gold-grind, farming things is not really an option, everything is a gold grind because heey you can buy gold with gems, no barber in the shop because they want to sell haircut kits and so on.

I rather have them releasing that sort of stuff in expansions so it can all be in the game and they don’t have to focus on the cash-shop to generate income.

Maybe with the upcoming MMO’s releases that compare with GW2 we might see a change there. They offer new classes and races for people who got tired of GW’s current classes and races, they offer open world PvP, raids, housing, mounts, sandbox elements, guild-halls and so on. Many of the things you have seen people asking for in those forums for a long time. Meaning that Anet almost must do something with that if it does not want to lose many players to those games.

Branden Gee.2150:

Elrey.5472:

Call me crazy, but I do believe some info about the next update, even if it’s just “hey, we’ll give you a potato in 4 weeks” would calm down the people impatience… such is the gw2 community hunger.

While we’d love to give you a time and date of when we’re sending out the potato, remember that during the development process we may discover that a baked potato would be even better. So instead of getting the potato of your dreams you end up with something completely unexpected.

It often happens that a mashed potato with gravy is even better still, unfortunately gravy requires more dev time. So we end up shipping a mashed potato without gravy to meet our promise of ship time or we push back the time and date of when we are shipping again and again. You get your mashed potato with gravy but it is delivered much later than it was expected.

Worst of all that is when we realize that potatoes are way too mainstream and that yams are where it’s at now. And I think we all know how reactions seem to go when we ship yams instead of potatoes.

So in a lot of cases the best we can do is tell you that we are still in the kitchen cooking things up, we’re reading your feedback, and that we’re excited to get the meal out to you soon™.

Here’s an interesting quote from a gameplay programmer that showed up https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Transparency-It-was-here-now-its-gone/first#post4019712 in this thread. I guess by now it’s pretty obvious Anet is going to keep quiet until things are ready to be released. I just hope the content they are working on will include new zones. I’m getting really bored playing the same maps for almost 2 years now.

I just want them to address the transmutation stone issue and karma and WvW gear. My sigils and runes are stuck in it and there’s no way I’m going to use WvW and karma gear for future builds untill this issue is dealt with. I just want, a month since the patch, some acknowledgement that this was intended, or it was an oversight and something WILL be done soon.

WasAGuest.4973:

I think the best description I have heard for the LS was this:

“It’s a playable commercial” meant to encourage sales from the Gem Shop.

I agree with that.
The LS and it’s “content” (drops, items, shineys etc) was either behind horrid grind and massive time sink/investment or a tortuous RNG system meant to discourage playing the game and rather open the wallet and simply buy in to enjoy the current theme of the LS – at least, IMO as that’s what I experienced with the LS.

Seeing this “Festival” return makes me wonder; will we see earn-able content that is FUN to get? Or will it be a massive grind and/or based off crappy RNG? Will we be able to partake in said festivities and walk away with some of the no doubt Limited Time offerings without having to hit the Gem Store? —- If not, then this is again fitting to the description of the players “Playing a commercial” – again, IMO.
This is opposite of how GW1 was pre-cash shop too. Grabbing a few friends and running through some fun, light hearted content and walking away with that seasons goodies was a blast. I never felt I had to “Work to enjoy” the festival, and nor did I feel I had to “Buy in” to have a good time.

I’m guessing though, that’s it will be more of the same old same old here. Festival is ON! YAY! New skins in Gem Shop this week only! Everyone is happy… not.

In the spirit of fairness; here’s how you monetize a festival. You hold the festival and make ALL items easily obtainable IN game. Not through grind, not through RNG, but through IN game activities. Then, next year when the festival is up again, you put up last years items IN the Gem Shop for those that either missed out on last years items or simply didn’t, at the time, want them.
With that, you have a happy player base that is enjoying the content without feeling they are being nickle and dimed WHILE providing a service to those that missed out on last years events. You also now show you have your eyes set on long term stability vs short term gains. — as always though, IMO.

That is indeed a good description. I also say it’s mainly there to have an excuse for offering temporary available cash-shop stuff. Or like you say it “open the wallet and simply buy in to enjoy the current theme of the LS”. And even if the LS would be used to implement real expansion-like content or more permanent stuff, this would stay as long as Anet generates it’s income with the cash-shop.

Thats why I as for them to generate money with expansions, as a real B2P game should do.

Let me also state that I am not sure who is to ‘blame’ (wrong word but can’t find a better one) for the current road Anet is taking.

Are all developers happy with this road or are they indeed agreeing with me (and many people here)? Even is they do they obviously can’t come here and say “yeah we totally agree”.

At release some things where already to much cash-shop. Mini’s in the cash-shop and soul-bound dyes for example. However I do know that the dyes where first mend to be the way they now are. Somewhere during development that changed. (I also know when but threads with links to more information about that tent to get closed so I leave that out of here.)

I have also heard that Anet started basically by Blizz WoW developers that where not happy with the payment model Blizz wanted for WoW. Then they came up with the B2P model and because of that GW1 was for a long time the big alternative for many people. If that story is true I can’t imagine those people are happy with it’s current model. GW2 is not anymore the alternative for the other.. it’s just in there with the F2P games.

Also look at the first big event.. Karka invasion. Yeah there where problems, people got Dc’t the event took a little long and many people missed it because of different time-zones. But overall the event was awesome. One of the best GW2 memories I have. Was maybe that what Anet envisioned as a living world and maybe back when many of them still did have a real B2P model as idea? Before release they did say we where going to get expansions. Later that became ‘no need for expansions if we do this LS correct’. Maybe some of the monetize people decided that this LS was the way to generate income instead of expansions and so the events turned from Karka invasion like events of what we maybe should only have 1 or 2 in-between expansions to the LS we have now?

If that is the case at least those people now have some leverage with the upcoming MMO releases and seeing how the ‘soul-bound dye system obviously did not have the effect the monetize people wanted’. Only problem still are the gem-sales, but as soon as that would drop the people that do want a real B2P model within the company might have the leverage they need. Question then is if it’s not already to late.

Devata.6589:

SkylightMoon.1980:

Season 2 should be Anet’s chance to redeem the mistakes they made in Season 1 aka too much temporary content. Last season was 80% temporary, 20% permanent. Don’t believe me? Look at how much actual permanent content is in this game. Its a joke. Those temp/perm ratio’s should be switched.

SAB should be permanent and so should the queens gauntlet. These other festivals and what not are annual activities.

No offense but Season 2 should not be Anet’s chance to redeem the mistake, the second half of season 1 should. Since the beginning (back when releases where once a month) these complains about temporary content, and grindy content (lists of achievements to complete) have been there.

Colin first said.. well we go to two weeks but also have bigger teams so the content will become better. In fact it got worse because the list of temporary stuff got bigger and there was a shorter time before the next patch was there. Exactly that what so many people disliked. Then after complains kept poring in he did say we would see more permanent content. What we did get where some additions like the JP and the World boss and some cosmetic changes that where permanent but the LS stuff itself was still just temporary.

Of course you can always say ‘well the next time’ but in all honestly, the ‘time to get it right’ was the second half of season 1, not season 2.

The CDI threads concerning the LW took place late in 2013, long after the second half of LS S1 had begun, and probably too late to have a lot of influence on the rest of S1, which ended in March, 2014. With four teams, development begins far in advance of current releases. Complain all you want about the content offerings, but when discussing overall management of the program, please consider the realities of content development.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

SkylightMoon.1980:

Season 2 should be Anet’s chance to redeem the mistakes they made in Season 1 aka too much temporary content. Last season was 80% temporary, 20% permanent. Don’t believe me? Look at how much actual permanent content is in this game. Its a joke. Those temp/perm ratio’s should be switched.

SAB should be permanent and so should the queens gauntlet. These other festivals and what not are annual activities.

No offense but Season 2 should not be Anet’s chance to redeem the mistake, the second half of season 1 should. Since the beginning (back when releases where once a month) these complains about temporary content, and grindy content (lists of achievements to complete) have been there.

Colin first said.. well we go to two weeks but also have bigger teams so the content will become better. In fact it got worse because the list of temporary stuff got bigger and there was a shorter time before the next patch was there. Exactly that what so many people disliked. Then after complains kept poring in he did say we would see more permanent content. What we did get where some additions like the JP and the World boss and some cosmetic changes that where permanent but the LS stuff itself was still just temporary.

Of course you can always say ‘well the next time’ but in all honestly, the ‘time to get it right’ was the second half of season 1, not season 2.

The CDI threads concerning the LW took place late in 2013, long after the second half of LS S1 had begun, and probably too late to have a lot of influence on the rest of S1, which ended in March, 2014. With four teams, development begins far in advance of current releases. Complain all you want about the content offerings, but when discussing overall management of the program, please consider the realities of content development.

Like I said, those complains where well known long before. Colin addressed some of them in the same live-stream where he announced / talked about going for two weeks and upping the teams working on the LS.

That means that most of the content we did see was build after those complains where known at ArenaNet.

So that information was available long before the CDI thread and really the CDI thread is just one thread where a few people contribute to so while it’s very good it’s there it’s not the only source. As if Anet never god input before the CDI or outside of the CDI thread.

It’s ready when it’s ready.
I don’t know why people feel so entitled to have something new to do. Maybe it’s because after hitting lvl 80 in the first few weeks two years ago the world now feels tiny and you feel confined and seeing/doing the same stuff over again isn’t your thing, but hey.. it’s an MMO. It’s always going to be repetitive. New content when it comes out will be completed and they everyone will be back to the same old boring cycle.
If you want new things, go find something creative to do like go create some music, create 3d models in blender etc.. find something where you are not limited by what’s given to you, but what your mind limits you to do.
This game isn’t meant for hardcore MMO players, it’s for the super casual.. just like mario cart.. and you don’t hear people complain to Nintendo asking for new mario cart maps.

How dare ANet slow down our free content. Those greedy jerks. If they weren’t holding this gun to my head, then by golly I’d go play <NextHypedMMO> right now and never not buy gems ever again. Harrumph.

Galen Grey.4709:

why do you keep accusing me of speaking about what everyone else on the planet likes? can you point out one place where I am doing that ?

Galen Grey.4709:

sorry I disagree rewards absolutely do not make content fun. Never did never will, they may make it worth while but they’re never going to make it fun. If you hate say PvP you’re not going to find it fun just cause doing it will get you a legendary. You may be happy to endure it cause you really want a legendary but you’re still not going to find it enjoyable.

^^^^^^^Right up there.

============

Galen Grey.4709:

And if in your opinion that means you’re talking for everyone else then arent you doing exactly the same thing?

No, because at no point have I claimed that everyone else likes/dislikes something. I did not even claim that those who do have their fun affected by rewards will always be so affected or so affected by every reward. I stated that for some people associated rewards can make what might otherwise be boring content fun.

Galen Grey.4709:

Okey fair enough..so lets make this really simple. You did say " I experienced plenty of situations where I enjoyed a task that would have been boring without the associated rewards. I have interacted with others whose experience was comparable to mine." Now you never stated how many others you were talking about so its up to you to come up with how common this phenomena is in your opinion.

Nothing of the sort is up to me. You claimed, “never,” I countered to explain that “never” was inaccurate.

Galen Grey.4709:

Lets say for the sake of argument its extremely uncommon That would still imply it happens a few times. So lets take whats arguably the most sought after reward in Gw2 Ascended gear (not saying it is the best reward only that because of the feedback and how much uproar it caused its clearly one of the most sought after rewards. Not my opinion but the forums opinion. And just so there is no misunderstand and you dont think I am projecting my believes on others as usual please be aware I dont care about ascended gear at all. I only have 3 pieces which I got a couple of months ago just to help some guildies with fractals. Anyhow back on subject. If what you’re saying is true the most sought after reward should at least have some people who are happy with the content they have to play in order to get that reward. Now one can find a ton of posts against said content. All I am asking you to do is find 1 that defends the content as is.

1) I am not sure that using the forums, normally a hot bed of negativity, as a litmus test for what the game’s community likes is a good idea. I certainly would not go to a Slayer concert to find positive commentary on Justin Bieber’s music.

2) Despite my opinion in #1, I have seen posts commending ANet for the implementation of Ascended gear, though they have generally been shouted down in a chorus of acrimony.

3) Even if there were not a single post on these forums which expressed a positive view of Ascended gear and its acquisition, it would not counter anything I have claimed. I never claimed that some people on these forums can have their enjoyment of content increased by the associated rewards. Nor did I claim that every reward is sufficient for everyone to have fun with content that might otherwise have been boring.

I, for example, can have fun with content that I might otherwise find boring because of the associated reward. I, on the other hand do not consider Ascended gear to be a desirable reward and would not have my enjoyment of content improved by its presence as a reward.

Galen Grey.4709:

Yet I personally never seen 1 single post defending the content as is.

I have never personally seen Idaho. This of course has no impact whatsoever on its existence (outside of certain religions/philosophies).

Galen Grey.4709:

Even people who defend Ascended gear do so by providing alternative strategies (such as dont farm but play what content you enjoy and you’ll ultimately get enough to get your ascended gear)

how would you explain that if in deed the reward makes content fun?

I said the reward can make content fun for some people.

Galen Grey.4709:

What content feels grindy / repetitive / fun / engaging / boring is subjective
what grindy / repetitive / fun / engaging and boring mean is not.

On these forums we have seen differing interpretations, and arguments, about what, “grindy,” means. In general though most of the people I have seen speak of grind have at least very strong similarities in their descriptions.

spritefire.5234:

It’s ready when it’s ready.
I don’t know why people feel so entitled to have something new to do.

For me personally, it’s because I’m a GW1 player. I’ve been with this series since a couple months after GW1 released. I’ve seen it through nearly every single update, every iteration and evolution of the game. I’m coming up on nine years of play.

We’re close to two years since GW2 release. Two years into GW1, we already had Factions and Nightfall. That’s two new continents, four new classes, two new skillsets for all classes, new PvP modes, two entirely new stories, multiple elite dungeons, and bunches of other things. These were enormous, gorgeous, and fully engaging expansions. I am seriously invested in Cantha and Elona, significantly more so than I am Tyria. I have very deep attachments to those places and the peoples that I met there.

When GW2 released, I assumed (as many did) that things would go like the first game. First release is Tyria, then a year or so later we’d get a Cantha expansion, then Elona. Or maybe reverse order. Now we’re about to hit two years and we’re just now getting to new zones. Don’t get me wrong; I have a lot of attachments to Maguuma as well and I’m happy that we’re headed back there. But I feel like this should have happened six months to a year ago.

I know this team. I know what they’re capable of. At least, I thought I did. But release after release, I’m more and more disappointed. The volume of content compared to the first game is just not on par. Instead of content previews we get maybe a paragraph and thirty second teaser videos. It’s all been building to a steady disillusionment in myself and others, and the Megaserver turmoil + the lack of any real communication with the devs right now are seriously exacerbating the problem.

So many of us are reaching tipping points. All we really want is for the devs to drop all this “hint and hype” nonsense and give us a straight up, real conversation about permanent, expansive new content in the future of the game. They stated a while back that they intended to deliver an expansion’s worth of content, but that they weren’t sure how to go about doing it. Well, I think they’ve had enough time to decide. It’s time to let us know what’s up. Hopefully the Festival release next week is the start of that happening.

I think this whole thread should be merged into :
What is guild wars Missing ?
The question shouldn’t be : where is the new content ?
Because they didn’t add anything since scarlet is game over.
We had a similar thread on the french forums named where is Guild wars in Guild wars 2 ?
Because this thread is arguing on some stuff we redefined.

Stuff that no new players couldn’t really argue…
( since by the time they would end up in the same wall later on. )

Stuff that we could resume at : what to do when you have a couple of legendary, couple set of ascended armors, enought time spent and respent into WvW, enought PvP even if for some its never enought. (quick reference)

Everyone like sometime to experiment something new, something long and captivating or maybe just helping some players/friends you have met in the game requesting your help.

Re-resuming by having all dive jump done, all jumping puzzle, 2 to 3 world exploration done and most likely all achivement done.( excluding daily )Adding had all the dungeons done and paths a couple dozen of times.

Somebody wise would answer living world. But i have participated on all of them and finished all of them to at 100%.
I think we should re-state the break that Anet really have well deserved.
To help them re-focus on our needs, we , players who are here from the very beginning of Guild Wars 2. To help them see that wall that very active players can see.
By proposing something you wish guild wars 2 has, not for your own gain, but for everyone to share an epic adventure. A content that would help the new players to see what is the real guild wars world.

What message we didn’t sent them clearly ? Where have we failed ? What content is missing ?
It would be a great news if Anet announce that an expansion is coming to GW2. But there is still something more than expanding the map Arenanet could do.
And i’d add on that, they need to review on how personal story is being done, I will explain on that later here.

Let’s resume some stuff by now…

- Open World
-Living World
-Endgame
-Hardcore
-Rewards
- Play = Zerg ?
- Farming = Zerg ?
- The epic feeling of Personal story

-Open world

Came to admit a full Open world cant make you feel worthy or Heroic.
a Hero alongs 150 is he still a hero ?.
Initinally guild wars 1 was Fully instanced, the zone, the missions ( past personal story ) the dungeons, pvp.
Open world are instanced zone of around 150-200 players. Zones are excellent has they are right here and its a future plus for the future living world.

A little comeback of the guild wars origine. You were a hero from ascalon, all of you heroes of ascalons. Whose by doing your quest, your path along the map could go with mercenaries with who you were sharing your looted golds. During harder times, human team work was better than using those mercenaries and could lead your mission much more sucessfull. And later you could customise your own heroes aka building your own teams.

To conclude that a full team of humans would lead to better results ‘’ More brains are better than just one’’ And to say that we dont need heroes since it’s an open world and during larger events the masse of players is there.

All this to say that in the guild wars story, team work is imperativly needed, a great team work for the best results. Team work that with ’’Zerging’’ and also masse events ( teq + 3 headed worm ) cannot be felt.
( You feel like a tagger trying to tag over everyone. Fighting for credits. )

Is guild wars team work dieing ?
Is being in a team dieing ?
Or does massive events are too massive ?

Because when you are in a dungeon and have a team, that team compose of either your guild members or LFG tool players. They are still , Tyrian heroes.

Leading to : Do you feel you make a difference in a Zerg ?

Zerging who is now more than common by, Champions run, WvW, PvP Team deathmatch, Massive event, Guild missions.

If you feel like zerging is the new guild wars 2 gameplay, you are not wrong yet.
But it wasn’t initially. And i believe this is one mistake we fell in. With time, deeper every month. More will be explained on Zerging later, keep reading.

Living world

One great stuff , kinda a endgame content or simply adventurous content.
Living world is one of the best thing of this game, promoting not-ended game. I see living world has a plus and fairly made to bring those casual players in. It’s a great thing indeed.

Massive event in living world are needed. Like the Scarlet marionette, even how failed this meta went because new players, people who didn’t care, people who didn’t listenned to what people was telling to them. 1 Failed floor out of 5 could lead the whole lane to a failure.

Wasn’t it obvious that a 150 players event ; with no commander( even with one or a couple of them ) cannot be fully heard , understood by a random collectivity it’s un-leadable, even if the majority does it.
-It Cannot be Sucessful.

Message from a player in-game
-It’s the nature of the game and some people are less talented , it’s not their fault
i’ll explain her point :
- The way you play your profession
- The way you dodges attack
-Your gamestyle/gameplay
-On what you are playing PC/Laptops/Your internet connection.

And this is not they’re fault…true,
And this is why i do not complain on living world content, its made to have time to try and try until we succeed and those massive living world event, make us play has a collectivity whos needed in the game.

But what for ‘’Talented people’’ or more looking hardcore players. Let’s keep progressing.

spritefire.5234:

It’s ready when it’s ready.
I don’t know why people feel so entitled to have something new to do. Maybe it’s because after hitting lvl 80 in the first few weeks two years ago the world now feels tiny and you feel confined and seeing/doing the same stuff over again isn’t your thing, but hey.. it’s an MMO. It’s always going to be repetitive. New content when it comes out will be completed and they everyone will be back to the same old boring cycle.
If you want new things, go find something creative to do like go create some music, create 3d models in blender etc.. find something where you are not limited by what’s given to you, but what your mind limits you to do.
This game isn’t meant for hardcore MMO players, it’s for the super casual.. just like mario cart.. and you don’t hear people complain to Nintendo asking for new mario cart maps.

Would the super casual not be one of the groups that also would like to play for fluff like mini’s? However getting a mini is not so much being achieved by doing dungeon x of mini y, it’s grinding gold or buying it with cash. So effectively taking away the game-play for those casual and everybody else who like that sort of stuff. That is also the type of content that can keep you busy for a year / 2 years. Before you collected them all (in the world). Feel free to replace mini’s by dyes, skins, mounts and so on.

Maxite.6102:

How dare ANet slow down our free content. Those greedy jerks. If they weren’t holding this gun to my head, then by golly I’d go play <NextHypedMMO> right now and never not buy gems ever again. Harrumph.

If you did read the thread many people here would love an expansions.. That means paying for an expansion. And of-course everybody did pay for the game itself. So no it’s not a cry for more free content. That does not even exist.

If everybody would just jump to any next hyped MMO then people where also not in this forum as there have been two big hyped games released between the release of GW2 and now. (FF and ESO) I should say there is one upcoming MMO that I am interested in checking out (No it does not start with a W) and I have never and will never buy gems as with that I would only support the cash-shop focus what I am so against and what is part to blame for the type of content we did get (and so many people disliked). I am willing to pay for content if only they would release some good high quality (and fully ingame) content in the form of an expansion so I could pay for it.

Not asking for ‘free’ content here.

Kalarchis.8635:

spritefire.5234:

It’s ready when it’s ready.
I don’t know why people feel so entitled to have something new to do.

For me personally, it’s because I’m a GW1 player. I’ve been with this series since a couple months after GW1 released. I’ve seen it through nearly every single update, every iteration and evolution of the game. I’m coming up on nine years of play.

We’re close to two years since GW2 release. Two years into GW1, we already had Factions and Nightfall. That’s two new continents, four new classes, two new skillsets for all classes, new PvP modes, two entirely new stories, multiple elite dungeons, and bunches of other things. These were enormous, gorgeous, and fully engaging expansions. I am seriously invested in Cantha and Elona, significantly more so than I am Tyria. I have very deep attachments to those places and the peoples that I met there.

When GW2 released, I assumed (as many did) that things would go like the first game. First release is Tyria, then a year or so later we’d get a Cantha expansion, then Elona. Or maybe reverse order. Now we’re about to hit two years and we’re just now getting to new zones. Don’t get me wrong; I have a lot of attachments to Maguuma as well and I’m happy that we’re headed back there. But I feel like this should have happened six months to a year ago.

I know this team. I know what they’re capable of. At least, I thought I did. But release after release, I’m more and more disappointed. The volume of content compared to the first game is just not on par. Instead of content previews we get maybe a paragraph and thirty second teaser videos. It’s all been building to a steady disillusionment in myself and others, and the Megaserver turmoil + the lack of any real communication with the devs right now are seriously exacerbating the problem.

So many of us are reaching tipping points. All we really want is for the devs to drop all this “hint and hype” nonsense and give us a straight up, real conversation about permanent, expansive new content in the future of the game. They stated a while back that they intended to deliver an expansion’s worth of content, but that they weren’t sure how to go about doing it. Well, I think they’ve had enough time to decide. It’s time to let us know what’s up. Hopefully the Festival release next week is the start of that happening.

While not a veteran GW1 player I have know about GW1 and the way they released content from the beginning. So when GW2 released and more important when they announced it would also be B2P I also did expect similar releases as you. Not that we would go to Elona or Cantha necessarily but an expansion every year to year and a half max. That would also mean no negative influence from a cash-shop focus. I mean what is more fun, having a barber in the game where you can cut your hair for a few silver or having to get a haircut kit from the cash-shop (that gold-2-gem rate cost a lot of gold), or having mini’s drop in the world.. a dolyac drops a mini dolyac, a dungeon boss can drop another special mini and so on.
Without focusing on expansions it makes sense they have to earn money this way but it does not do the game any good.

Dark Jackson.3417:

-Open world

Came to admit a full Open world cant make you feel worthy or Heroic.
a Hero alongs 150 is he still a hero ?.
Initinally guild wars 1 was Fully instanced, the zone, the missions ( past personal story ) the dungeons, pvp.
Open world are instanced zone of around 150-200 players. Zones are excellent has they are right here and its a future plus for the future living world.

A little comeback of the guild wars origine. You were a hero from ascalon, all of you heroes of ascalons. Witch by doing your quest, your path along the map could go with mercenaries with who you were sharing your looted golds. During harder times, human team work was better than using those mercenaries and could lead your mission much more sucessfull. And later you could customise your own heroes aka building your own teams.

To conclude that full human teams would lead better results ‘’ More brains are better than just one’’ And to say that we dont need heroes since it’s an open world and during larger events the masse of players is there.

All this to say that in the guild wars story, team work is imperativly needed, a great team work for the best results. Team work that with ’’Zerging’’ and also masse events ( teq + 3 headed worm ) cannot be felt.
( You feel like a tagger trying to tag over everyone. Fighting for credits. )

Is guild wars team work dieing ?
Is being in a team dieing ?
Or does massive events are too massive ?

Because when you are in a dungeon and have a team, that team compose of either your guild members or LFG tool players. They are still , Tyrian heroes.

Leading to : Do you feel you make a difference in a Zerg ?

Zerging who is now more than common by, Champions run, WvW, PvP Team deathmatch, Massive event, Guild missions.

If you feel like zerging is the new guild wars 2 gameplay, you are not wrong yet.
But it wasn’t initially. And i believe this is one mistake we fell in. With time, deeper every month. More will be explained on Zerging later, keep reading.

One of the main reason I did not like GW1 was because it was not one big open world and I would even prefer it if they make GW2 even more of an open world by making seamless zones.

You really want that hero feeling then you can put in the more traditional quest with linked to it a personal story. You complete it once so it’s your story. However maybe we should stop the idea of being hero’s and in stead being explorers who end up in a lot of situations, including heroic situations. That is how I have always felt in any mmo and that’s fine.

Im happier that at least we know what are their plans for the next future. I definetly prefer a recycle rather than silence/nothing.

-Hardcore
- Endgame
- Rewards
- Play = Zerg ?
- Farming = Zerg ?

All of the above can be resumed fast.

There’s nothing more really to enjoy has a Hardcore player; Living world, WvW,PvP and doing events/dungeons all over.

What else could we give them ?
But first let’s wonder : What they are looking for ?
-Diffulty and rewards. Indeed.

Bringing back the zerging question.
Let’s do some maths.

Play = Zerg because farm = zerg (PvE most asked question)
So in theorie ; —-→ play + zerg = Farm
Willing to change it to would goes —→Play = farm-zerg

Leading to 5 man Instance, restricted area and rich difficult content.

Where can we see this in-game ?
-Dungeons. Only dungeons ( Is dungeon the only team work content ? Yes. )
-Personal story can be teamed but it’s not needed and easily soloable.

Do we need more dungeons ? Answer is no, new dungeons would only lead to a new token money, some new paths, new armor skin/armor of 1 type and will be done as fast as all the other dungeons.

Now it’s the time to present you the Hard Mode. Judging from Gw1, hard mode was easy to insert to the game, because the whole game was instanced with small groupes. I do not judge the Open world zone ‘’ Aka ’’ Main Map Zones as instance. You know what i mean by instance, a 5 man group that enter in a closed place, Full of monsters. Hard mode is a lvl 80 ( max ) only, since all the monsters / boss are lvl 80s or higher.
Only thing they had to care was to make it different from usual and harder.( Family monsters has different skills and boss has more skills as usual doing more stuff that they used to do ).

Hard Mode

Hard mode already exist in the game, they tried by all the means to insert it.
1- You guys wanted a Hard mode dungeons. They gave you fractals, who failed :
-Create 5 man instance, of Short lengh
-With a weird ladder of difficulty
-With past lvl 30 you has doubtfuls malus ( poison boons )
-And, not good enough rewards coming out of it. ( 1g/1h runs, chance to ascended rings/armor/weapons or Fractal skins.)

It’s a dungeons as another. Overall.

2- Hard mode events,I spoke to you earlier about it; Teq, 3 headed worms.
- Why it failed ; The need to full the map for a descent chance,
-Mega servers,’’ruining’’ possible guild commanding the event.(But mega servers are a good thing )
-The fact that even if you stand up as Commander and command, you wont get 100% understood, heard/listenned even if the majority does.. Random peoples are random.
-It’s not bad, neither impossible. It’s challenging but also frustrating forwarding in this kind of events are not worth it. Rewards are not so great and rng is rng, you better know than everyone. Meaning a total random character can have the most rewardful reward of it and it’s kind of disapointing for all the person who made the event sucessful. ( Leadership )

3- A 80s only dungeon path ?
They tried, TA Aetherblade path..Failed
- Content failed, even if the reward from it are very worthy. But have to admit they are worthy because it’s not made enought by the players. In conclusion a content not made enought is a failure. I’ll add on that TA wasn’t the best dungeon to add the path too. But made TA more interesting to do. Personally i love aetherpath, but can take forever to make a party for it. Let’s say 50/50 fail.

4- Any last option ? Hard mode story ? Nah, Living world is a kind of it.
– Now let me invite you to any dungeon
– No not story ones.
– No not explorable one we made them hundred of times already
– Hard mode option ? Why not ?
What could this possibly look like ?
Explorable path all at once ? All monsters 80s and above indeed.
Rewards ? Vainquishing it ? Unique boss skins ? ex: Troll in ac has an Hammer with his head at the bottom ? Kohler has a ghostly sword at the Gw1 style ( same skin has ascalonian sword but ghostly like kohler is )
It’s just exemple to show you how it could be…

Complaining ? Than let’s add story + explorable boss, All at once. Vainquishing all dungeons should lead to : Grand Master of Dungeons

One of the main reason I did not like GW1 was because it was not one big open world and I would even prefer it if they make GW2 even more of an open world by making seamless zones.

You really want that hero feeling then you can put in the more traditional quest with linked to it a personal story. You complete it once so it’s your story. However maybe we should stop the idea of being hero’s and in stead being explorers who end up in a lot of situations, including heroic situations. That is how I have always felt in any mmo and that’s fine.

I only pointed that if they added Missions toward personal story, we could team them for a better adventure, Past lvl 30 it’s no Longer personal story , it’s pick a path between priory/whispers…etc . And than you become Traerne dog. They could adds missions during the story who would have made the story of the game better than staying all alone t’ill Arah

One player was un-happy of how the game made is hero epicless. I wanted to share is story and maybe clarify his term of epicless… Most of the time, you are surrounded by NPCs. Leading the events, the needs of protecting them.It’s not new you’d say and your right but most of the quest ( 90%) are leaded by npcs.. and you are just the kind of back up for him. He his the quest, he his the mission and you are his guardian.
Thats it.

There’s no sneaking up and opening the gates with a small hero crew. There’s no turn-over of players fighting an Army. You dont feel that your personal act has an impact on the game. NPCs rules the game and more likely your story.

I said earlier that the main map, the main zone has to remain Open. There is nothing else than dungeons that are instanced ( 5 man groups instance and not 150 man instanced zone map ). Since you hit an overscaled mob due to a zerg nearby from him, you litterally do nothing to him. Unless the whole Zerg comes to hit him..
Dont you feel worthless ? Let’s see a year later.

Specially from casual people it doesn’t surprises me and doesn’t bother me at all. Sometimes I like to run a 1k/2k achivements party, I find that more challenging. But :

-What else should i do ?
-Find pro players to fast-run it ?
-How challenging is it when we all know what we are going to ?
I’m not complaining. like that player said, its the nature of the game.
Hard mode content should be a plus, an Expansion with some missions toward should be a plus, give Living World some 5 man instance should be a plus. with a Explorable + Hard mode option.

If i give you for exemple : the scarlet instance we went to end it. What if we could have lead an Ultimate battle with 5 man. What if a Hard mode option was also up for an Additional reward. Was it needy ? no, complementary ? yes.

Hard mode option is for more Hardcores players. It’s no need it’s complementary. But it’s not worthless content.

Instead of revamping what we have. Promote what we already have.