Guild Wars 2

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

As far as I know the only Elder Dragon that is confirmed to have mindless minions only are Kralkatorrik.

K’s minions aren’t mindless. I remember going solo against one particularly verbose Branded Charr champ in a Dynamic Event somewhere in Ascalon.

Edit: Ah, here we are.

Squee.7829:

The Flame Legion are not destroyers. They’re charr. Not made of fire and stone. It’s incredibly likely that they will work for the Destroyers though, like they did in GW1. The Flame Legion kind of like powerful things to follow. And if its on fire, even better!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Champion_Drakin_Cinderspire.jpg

How is that not a Magma-corrupted Charr!?!

Destroyers are the name of Primordus’s minions so if Primordus has secretly(or possibly not so secretly) corrupted Flame Legion Charr then they are Destroyers.

There are also claims that the Legendary Imbued Shaman of the Volcanic Fractal is corrupted by Primordus and thus a Destroyer as well.

We also see Magma corrupted Dredge in the Molten Alliance.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Veteran_Molten_Shaman.jpg

Also it would seem I spoke too soon about Kralkatorrik’s minions…

What do they talk about? Do normal Risen talk too?

If normal Risen talk then all Dragon minions are like Sylvari yet if they don’t talk then Zhaitan is a unique Elder Dragon…

gervasium.4567:

“Sylvari and the Pale Tree don’t even look like Mordrem. Yet they were intended to be dragon minions from the beginning? If this was so, wouldn’t Mordrem have looked like sylvari? Wouldn’t the Pale Tree look like a Mordrem tree? Remember: the one and only means of removing corruption does not change the physical appearance – it just gives free will.”

Considering that, these are are old GW2 concept art pieces by Kekai Kotaki:

Caithe (a sylvary) before the redesign:

Mordrem/Corrupted guys (obviously servants of Mordremoth). They look like the old version of Sylvary and you can’t say they’re just corrupted because I can’t find any other race corrupted in the same way in concept art.

Another one.

Then this one , which shows an obvious Mordrem with a Mord-sylvary that’s even listed in the wiki as Sylvary concept art.

I can’t look at these and not believe it was their plan from the beginning.

They certainly planned on having a plant dragon named Mordremoth from the beginning, and there are more than a few indications about the Sylvari. That said, it doesn’t mean they had all the details worked out in advance.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Sylvari and the Pale Tree don’t even look like Mordrem. Yet they were intended to be dragon minions from the beginning? If this was so, wouldn’t Mordrem have looked like sylvari? Wouldn’t the Pale Tree look like a Mordrem tree? Remember: the one and only means of removing corruption does not change the physical appearance – it just gives free will.

Pale Tree and Sylvari have flowers…. A couple of of Modrem have flowers…

Alot of Mordrem have similar hides to Sylvari Hounds.

Nightmare Hounds are clearly dehydrated compared to the Sylvari Hounds which is likely because of being abused by the Nightmare Court.

The color loss isn’t from the corruption but more likely because of what’s required to free it from the Pale Tree’s control: abuse which of course includes starving it of nutrients.

A well fed and watered Nightmare Hound would look just like a Sylvari Hound.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Sylvari and the Pale Tree don’t even look like Mordrem. Yet they were intended to be dragon minions from the beginning? If this was so, wouldn’t Mordrem have looked like sylvari? Wouldn’t the Pale Tree look like a Mordrem tree? Remember: the one and only means of removing corruption does not change the physical appearance – it just gives free will.

Pale Tree and Sylvari have flowers…. A couple of of Modrem have flowers…

Alot of Mordrem have similar hides to Sylvari Hounds.

Nightmare Hounds are clearly dehydrated compared to the Sylvari Hounds which is likely because of being abused by the Nightmare Court.

The color loss isn’t from the corruption but more likely because of what’s required to free it from the Pale Tree’s control: abuse which of course includes starving it of nutrients.

A well fed and watered Nightmare Hound would look just like a Sylvari Hound.

Where on earth did you pull that from. There has never been anything to suggest that Sylvari colour changes are due to hydration. Nightmare hounds look like that because they’ve been abused and their appearance changes to reflect their internal moods. We can far more safely assume that because we know it to be the same with actual Sylvari. Going through something emotional or physical can cause their outer appearance to change. It has nothing to do with how hydrated they are.

Also saying ‘they both are plants/have leaves/ have flowers’ does not mean they look adequately similar enough. A flame elemental is made of fire and yet there’s no link between them and Primordius… The point is that the Sylvari colouration and overall design doesn’t match up at all with any designs that we’ve seen used for Mordremoth’s minions. The only similarity is that they are plant based beings.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

-snip-
Insert Episode review

Ironicly close to my thoughts exactly.
Didn`t expect it to pop up in a thread about the twist ending, but it seems to the go to thread, right now.
(I even made a seperate feedback to talk about the episode and not just the sylvari https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Feedback-S2E8-Point-of-no-Return-Finale/first#post4693224)

Anyway. The episode was paint by numbers “okay”. It was nothing special. It didn`t really answer a lot of questions and it ended like the other episodes before with an aprupt cliffhanger.
The Season did not end for our hero, it was just cut off and we were shown pretty pictures.

Yes, as amazing as it was, it was not including us. While they tried to bring us back into the limelight, they have completly forgotte about it by the end.

You killed a dragon champion, or something (what was the shadow of the dragon anyway?), who was appearently our antagonist and BAM, season is over. Here have some things you are not part of and some teaser…

How should I get emotionaly invested if my character ingame isn`t even part of it?
I am cut off and will only know about these things when the story continues.

To me, while the writing has improved, season 2 was just “okay”. To be honest. I was more invested into Season 1. Even the sitcom ending was better.

Season 2 would have been great, if it wasn`t just a set up for Hearts of Thorns . Now we got the Scarlet season and the Things before Heart of Thorns season . I am not even sure why it is called point of no return, aside from the pact loss.
So far even the Sylvari thing can be mended if the people of Tyria don`t go crazy and out for a witch hunt (which they will).
Can someone entlighten me here?

Why would the Sylvari have to look anything like the dragon to be created as its minions? I seriously doubt the Destroyers ALL look similar to their evil overlord. There’s too far of a range of looks between them. The only probable similarity would be if the dragon is rocky and firey. Jormag’s Ice golem constructs (not the corrupted Norn/random animal minions) look nothing like a dragon. The only likely similarity is an affinity for being icey. The only visible comparison between Mordremoth and the Sylvari would be the plant-like appearance. Also, we know why the Sylvari look the way they do. It has outside influences. For all we know, they might all take on miniature dragon shapes by default, but since someone decided to plant them on 2 dead girls (and later a man), they took that form instead.
Keeping in mind that the Pale Tree popped up somewhat around the same time as the Great Destroyer, (even if it is in seed form)it is a powerful living plant entity, and has a pseudo mind-link to its “minions”, I don’t think it’s a far stretch at all to think they were created by the dragons all along. Could they have shown that link a little better? I don’t know. Maybe. It’s either excellent misdirection going a bit too far, or just flat out bad writing rife with inaccuracies, but I doubt they outright lied about their intentions.

ElysianEternity.6215:

So, in other words the most cited, fanfiction-ish and unfounded theory since beta was supposedly one of anet’s story’s greatest mysteries?

I hope that isn’t something the writers are proud of.

I don’t even really know what to say. Just wow. Lame.

Considering the game has hundreds of thousands of players, it would be practically impossible to have a secret in the game that there are hints for, and still keep it a secret so that no one would guess it.

gervasium.4567:

“Sylvari and the Pale Tree don’t even look like Mordrem. Yet they were intended to be dragon minions from the beginning? If this was so, wouldn’t Mordrem have looked like sylvari? Wouldn’t the Pale Tree look like a Mordrem tree? Remember: the one and only means of removing corruption does not change the physical appearance – it just gives free will.”

Considering that, these are are old GW2 concept art pieces by Kekai Kotaki:

Caithe (a sylvary) before the redesign:

Mordrem/Corrupted guys (obviously servants of Mordremoth). They look like the old version of Sylvary and you can’t say they’re just corrupted because I can’t find any other race corrupted in the same way in concept art.

Another one.

Then this one , which shows an obvious Mordrem with a Mord-sylvary that’s even listed in the wiki as Sylvary concept art.

I can’t look at these and not believe it was their plan from the beginning.

Yeah. Odds are they changed the Sylvari to be more “beautiful”, because ugly/monstrous races are generally not favored by players.

By the way, as to the question why the Sylvari do not look like other dragon minions or like Mordrem. Could it be that it’s because they grew from the Pale Tree and she grew them into another image than what Mordy himself does.

From the wiki:

“Many scholars hypothesize as to why the sylvari look human-like at all instead of having a monstrous form, such as other “vegetable” races possess. Some suggest that the Pale Tree saw mostly humans during her youth. Individuals such as Ronan, who planted the seed, and others around the Pale Tree may have been physical role models for her eventual children. A popular asura theory is that the Pale Tree was planted on the graves of Ronan’s daughter and his ruined village, and their ”discorporate mass” was absorbed into the ground. The Pale Tree took nourishment from that soil, and therefore, the sylvari are predisposed to be shaped in a humanoid manner.”

Again, just a theory, but it could explain why the Sylvari of the Pale Tree look so different from the Mordrem.

DaShi.1368:

Unfortunately, many who were against the theory outright bullied people at the mere mention of it. Whether people who wanted to discuss the theory had strong facts or not, a few people made it their duty to shut down any conversation about the topic. This continued even after their prized arguments that “proved” it had been debunked were demonstrated not to be strong enough to justify that conclusion.

I never had trouble consistently bringing it up over the last year nor did I feel bullied. While I agreed with the critics that the theory wasn’t as strong as many people in the community believed it was, I never ruled it out and always wanted to challenge the critics every time a new part of the Living Story could be used to explain or support the theory. This is what a lore forum does.

Shiren.9532:

I’d like to point out one of the recent revelations in the new story instance discussing Scarlet/Ceara.

Vorpp: This is Synergestic’s Headmaster Omadd’s isolation module. A sylvari named Ceara went in; Scarlet came out. I reverse-engineered an image of Ceara’s aura patterns before and after. The schism is pronounced and dramatic. Ceara encountered something that literally broke her mind, but the only things in there were things she brought. I surmise she was directly exposed to a part of her own psyche that had been carefully walled off. Perhaps for her own protection? We’d need to do far more extensive study of the sylvari Dream before I could draw any more-detailed conclusion. What I can conclude now is that she’s preparing to strike. Mark my words: Scarlet’s next attack is planned and ready.

Now I’ve personally demonstrated a lack of knowledge of how the sylvari Dream works but isn’t this new information that could support the idea that sylvari are servants of Mordremoth?

“The only things in there were things she brought.” Is that their way of saying, what happened in that machine was connected to a sylvari’s connection to the Dream? She wasn’t corrupted from something external, the machine made her vulnerable to something already inside of her, something she was already connected to.

Moredremoth. As a minion of Mordremoth, Ceara was somehow linked to him. Had a non-sylvari used the machine, they would have been fine.

Shiren.9532:

“I surmise she was directly exposed to a part of her own psyche that had been carefully walled off. Perhaps for her own protection.” We don’t know where the sylvari come from. We know there was a cave with seeds, but we know nothing about the seeds. It it possible that sylvari have the potential to be dragon minions, but they have mental protection (possibly from the Pale Tree) preventing them from their true origins (I think Vorpp does say everyone’s mind has some protection)? Scarlet is becoming unravelled because using Omadd’s device, she broke through that protection and became vulnerable to what was on the other side. The Pale Tree knows about this and tries to protect Scarlet from what she doesn’t know.

This was basically confirmed by the Pale Tree when we discuss Scarlet and Aerin. The Pale Tree protects the sylvari, Scarlet lost that protection. It’s possible Aerin wasn’t Soundless after all – I doubt all the sylvari on the Pact ships were soundless. Notice Aerin was the only sylvari we saw in Dry Top?

Shiren.9532:

This could also be Caithe’s secret, Caithe knows that sylvari are on a knife’s edge from being the very thing they fight. That would also be a secret worth keeping. One, that if it ever got out, would change Tyria as we know it.

She killed Wynne to protect the truth about sylvari, but the idea that sylvari as minions would change Tyria as we know it was heavily emphasised in the trailer.

This is my post from 11 months ago just after the A Study in Scarlet instance. The fact that I was able to nail the bulk of the plot points to do with the sylvari as dragon minions (and guess Caithe’s season two finale reveal) 11 months prior to it happening suggests to me that ArenaNet did lay the groundwork for it to happen.

I again brought the theory up when we had Mawdrey as an example of possibly cleansing Mordremoth’s corruption (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Mawdrey-the-Pale-Tree-Glint-and-Mordremoth/first#post4304332).

The theory was never stifled, it was vigorously debated, and the reasonings or the search for ways in which it could be true become stronger because of that. Now that it’s mostly canon (we still just have two NPCs stating it, one based off of the other, but Angel’s post also implied it was true) we can open the floodgates on how the Pale Tree was free from Mordremoth’s corruption.

By that, let`s nourish the Mordrems with bloodstone dust cake (the debuff is just the right thing we need to win the fight)

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We haven’t even learned why the egg is important yet. But we’re spending all this time going after it. Apparently every NPC knows, but not the players. That is poor storytelling.

We do know why the egg is important. I’m pretty sure you’ve played the chapter but I believe it’s the chapters between Glint’s layer and finding the Master of Peace where we talk to Ogden and he tells us the magic has to go somewhere when a Dragon is killed or it will be bad for Tyria.

If that isn’t self explanatory, then I don’t know what is.

The only thing we don’t know is where the magical city is that we should take the egg to.

Jaken.6801:

By that, let`s nourish the Mordrems with bloodstone dust cake (the debuff is just the right thing we need to win the fight)

Bloodstone Cake sling would definitely be devastating against the menders and the leechers.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

To those saying “Elder Dragons function differently, maybe Mordremoth minions aren’t like others!”
Or other variations.

The fact of the matter is that, if you actually pay in-depth attention to the details, all attributes and knowledge about both the Elder Dragons and their minions can fall into two categories:

1. Things that are common across all dragons
2. Things that are unique unto a specific dragon

And when I said that the sylvari are nothing like dragon minions, I speak of the first category. This includes things like hive mind mentality (despite common misbelieve, sylvari do not have a hive mind; to quote Killeen in Ghosts of Ascalon, page 120 (first line of chapter 10): “It isn’t mind reading,” said Killeen, “and we aren’t all connected into one big mass mind. However, before we come into the world, the sylvari are united in the Dream of Dreams.”). Another case is the lack of free will. And how about consuming magic? Sylvari eat food not magic – dragon minions do not eat food, they drain the ambient magic in the world (see Field Test ).

So yes, there are differences between all of the dragon minions. But there are also similarities. And it is these similarities that sylvari lack – completely. Even, as mentioned, appearance (but not Mawdrey!).

Hey, Jormag and Zhaitan corrupt Fleshy things but Primo creates beings from stone. There’s a similarity between two and there’s a difference in one. So it’s not so farfetched that Mordy would have a tick of his own. Heck, bubbles probably only creates Giant Wurms.

lordkrall.7241:

ElysianEternity.6215:

So, in other words the most cited, fanfiction-ish and unfounded theory since beta was supposedly one of anet’s story’s greatest mysteries?

I hope that isn’t something the writers are proud of.

I don’t even really know what to say. Just wow. Lame.

Unfounded?
The fact that people have been discussing it since beta would suggest that there were indeed things pointing towards it, ergo not unfounded.

The evidence that led to the theory being proposed pre-release was debunked shortly after release, and it survived basically for no better reason than people not wanting to give it up. Credible evidence didn’t start to appear until about a year ago, and even then it’s been fairly circumstantial until now. It’s basically only coincidence that of all the crazy theories back then, this one turned out to be right.

I’m fairly meh towards the idea in general, but it really wasn’t as solid as its proponents made it out to be.

Beyond that observation, I don’t think it’s worth arguing further. It’s done now.

Odyssey.2613:

You’re nitpicking words now. But the gist of it is they break through, so we pull back to defend other gates. Think about it. Does that make any sense to you?

Nope. It’s giving up on one leak while trying to plug another — as the water from the abandoned leak continues to pour in.

/queue Johnny Cash, ‘How High’s the Water, Trahearne?’

The ghost of my level 12 Militant Wizard character from an AD&D campaign long past cringes every time anyone in this game executes ‘strategy’ and/or ‘tactics’. If he could somehow get into Tyria, he’d rule the world within a month. With his Charisma of 8!

Anyway, here’s how I would have done this scene:

0. Since the Pact ships were already in the vicinity, the air strike would have been ordered as the enemies were moving up the relatively narrow pathways to the gates. On top of that, soldiers positioned on the cliff walls would have sniped, bombed, and dropped rocks on the advancing enemies. But for the sake of drama, let’s say there was a temporary glitch and we couldn’t call in the air strike before the enemy reached the gates.

1. Defend the A Gate! Success! Wow, commander, your presence is truly an inspiration! Quickly now, go and help…

2. Defend the B Gate! Success! Hah! We’ve got them — (enemy reinforcements arrive and burst through both gates simultaneously) — right where they want us. `O_o

3. Fall back to Point C (which has been prepped to be the fall back position and is heavily fortified) and signal for the air strike at the pre-determined coordinates. There would have been no ‘signal fire’. If, for some reason, radio communication is still outside our our grasp, we’d have been using the same holographic communications technology that Ellen Kiel is using to communicate with her people in Southsun Cove, and if for some reason that didn’t work, we’d have shot flares, which would have been located well within the heavily fortified fall back position with someone stationed there with orders to fire them if an enemy breached the gates.

Here’s what the air strike would do: carpet bomb the access points, where the enemies are all jammed together as they rush to get in. As mentioned previously, I’d have had lots of happy Pact snipers up on the cliffs outside the gates sniping and throwing bombs and causing avalanches and stuff.

4. Mop up.

5. Find Trahearne and say, “FIRED! As in, you are.”

I agree with Konig on everything. Also, the Shadow of the Dragon was always implied to a be manifestation of Zhaitan’s minions. It looks like a risen dragon champion, and then both the Pale Tree and your luminary tell you it’s Zhaitan and that your goal are the risen.

If the sylvari being dragon minions was the original idea, they did an awful job hinting at it. Their movements so far lead me to believe they copied this out of dumb fans who don’t know anything about the lore, and just like to hop on every random theory bandwagon, even when they don’t make sense, and specially if there’s a big messiah face behind it.

There were many other interesting ideas, like sylvari being related to the ancient Maguuma druids, that could have fought Mordremoth’s influence long ago. The dragon minion plot is just a bad move, that contradicts a lot of the established material.

So yeah, rule of cool. At least I hope the sacrifice is worth for the game’s future.

Edit: Also, so much for Forgotten, but then that plot serves no purpose at all…

Lonami.2987:

Also, the Shadow of the Dragon was always implied to a be manifestation of Zhaitan’s minions.

It was implied to be something it wasn’t, and due to the context of the story at the time, and the information the NPCs and the player had been given, there was absolutely no reason to think it was not the Dream’s representation of the threat of Zhaitan. They created a red herring and gave us no reason at all to be suspicious of what it was. Seems like successful storytelling to me.

If the sylvari being dragon minions was the original idea, they did an awful job hinting at it. Their movements so far lead me to believe they copied this out of dumb fans who don’t know anything about the lore, and just like to hop on every random theory bandwagon, even when they don’t make sense, and specially if there’s a big messiah face behind it.

The allegation that they are somehow inept storytellers who had no plan and just went with the community’s ideas is childish and disrepectful. And based on zero evidence. Why should they drop strong hints that a particular upcoming twist is coming? That would make for a terribly boring reveal. What they did do, was place bread crumbs here and there that could be interpreted as consistent with the minion theory and could foster discussion and debate, but absolutely did not prove a thing. They did it wonderfully, in my view, but that’s my opinion. If you have any objective facts to present to support your ideas that they did not plan on this from the start, I’d love to see them. The evidence that they were planning on this is how well all of the originally laid pieces fit with this reveal.

The dragon minion plot is just a bad move, that contradicts a lot of the established material.

Examples of pieces that contradict? Let’s hear them! Please stick to pieces that don’t fit though, not just pieces you dislike.

I do believe that this was planned for a long time based upon a few things. The Mordrem we have encountered seem to be the specialized units of Mordremoth as they do not appear in large numbers and typically have a major strength/weakness, which is similar to the units of the other dragons. The dragon-sylvari seem to be the ones that were meant to be the rank and file soldiers of Mordremoth because they appear in great numbers and can be created quickly.

As I have stated before, several times within this thread, the Avatar of the Pale Tree seems to be protecting the Sylvari from Mordremoth’s control and influence. As several have mentioned the Sylvari do resemble the Norn in that there are the Norn, the Sons of Svanir and then the Icebrood. With the Sylvari we have the Sylvari, the Nightmare Court and then the Modrem. Basically, the Nightmare Court turns others to their cause, twisting their personalities/minds closer to that of the Mordrem but are not touched by Mordremoth as of yet thanks to the Avatar of the Pale Tree.

Now if they come close enough to Mordremoth or willingly follow the Dragon then they will begin the corruption phase until they eventually become Mordrem. So the Sylvari are similar to the Norn but are more susceptible to becoming Mordrem because if they get close enough to Mordremoth they are placed under its control, as seen in the trailer. However, the only reason the Sylvari have a choice is because the interference of the Avatar of the Pale Tree.

Appearance. This can be seen mostly in the fern hounds. The fern hounds are the non-corrupted and untwisted version, the Nightmare hounds of the Nightmare Court are the twisted versions and the Mordrem wolves are the twisted and corrupted versions.

Dream. The Dream shares information from those in the waking world and those within the Dream through their experience, using the Pale Tree as a medium. This is very similar, or I assume it is, to the methods of other dragons. However, for the Sylvari it is not a hive mind because the Avatar of the Pale Tree either cannot or does not wish to control the Sylvari and would rather them having free will to make their own decisions.

However, without the Avatar of the Pale Tree interfering with Mordremoth’s control, not creating a safe zone within the Dream, the chance of free will would be gone and likely it would become a hive mind like with the other dragons. My opinion of course.

Not liking the story development is one thing but dismissing it or claiming it came out of nowhere is just unfair to both Anet and those who figured it out in advance. There have been subtle hints of this from the beginning with more foreshadowing as the story went on, until Scarlet’s fate pretty much confirmed it. That players were able to guess at the twist just proves the groundwork has been laid.

Personally I’m liking the plot and I’m curious where it will lead, good job all.

I think that this was planned since the developing of eye of the north.

We’ve ronan who finds the seed and said there are more seeds.
We’ve ventari, the warm-hearted guy who taught the tree his wisdom and educated the tree.

Then in GW2 we know, that sylvari could not become minions of other dragons and we know (i think i’ve read this here in the forum) that corrupted creatures could not be corupted by other dragons.
We know, that the human appearance came from Ronan (Ok the open question is, why has malyck a human appearance too?)

From season 2 we know, that some sylvari get mad, especially soundless sylvari. So the madness (corruption) seems easier for sylvari without bondings to the pale tree.

I think it is very logical that sylvari are dragon minions, but i don’t know why the sylvari from the other pale tree also looks like human beings.

Maybe the ronan-theory is wrong and there are hundred of trees and bushes and every plant has his own corruption form. Some human and dog-like. Other for trolls, griffons, etc.

The sylvari storyline even starts with a shadowy plant dragon which is trying to corrupt the dream.

Which was strongly implied, at the time of launch, to be Zhitain’s influence.

So… uh… where is all the evidence that debunked this theory?

All I see, even from the supposed expert in this thread (who has ragequit the forums, apparently), is that ‘There is tons of contradictions.’ ‘They don’t look/act exactly like all the other mordrem/minions’ ’It’s out of nowhere.’ ’They’ve been debunked.’ ‘NO REALLY GUYS IT’S BEEN DEBUNKED THIS IS STUPID.’

So, someone explain them to me. I’ve seen a lot of glossing over, not a lot of facts. I’m neither a long term poster or an expert, but I’ve seen these hints since I started playing. From what I’ve seen and read, there have been more breadcrumbs leading to this than hard evidence against it. Those arguing that it doesn’t make sense seem to keep falling back on a few, incredibly weak points.

The two theories that always made the most sense was that either they were dragon minions or they were Tyria attempting to rid itself of the dragons. Seems to me, in this moment, it may be both.

The tree was planted long before mordy woke up. That alone may have been enough to “free” it, as it may never have actually been under the dragon’s control. In addition to it’s distance from the dragon and being imprinted early in it’s life by “good” people, it seems highly likely Mordremoth wasn’t strong enough to control the tree at first, and only recently gained the ability to influence the race. Hell, it can’t even control unprotected/weak Sylvari unless they are within spiting distance, as seen in the cinematic.

It seems to me that the Tree was “freed” by means of many converging factors.

1) Being planted and growing before Mordremoth woke up
2) Being imprinted early with “good” teachings
3) Being planted out of reach of the dragons influence
4) Being (possibly) influenced by the human gods and the influence they had on Tyria’s magic
5) Being influenced by both Ronin and Ventari’s essence, as they both died practically on top of it

4 and 5 have a lot to do with dragon’s, and their champions, feeding on magic. The human gods once controlled magic, and had to have left a mark so to speak. While feeding upon said magic sans Mordremoth’s complete control, they could have effected the development of the tree indirectly. It would also explain why Slyvari look humanoid. Then, when Ronin and Ventari died, it is very possible the Tree was further changed upon absorbing their essence.

Then there is the huge problem: we have no real idea how the dragons work. Mordremoth is clearly capable of CREATING life, while the other dragons simply corrupt existing things. The fact is we don’t know enough about them to judge how they, as a group, function. Let alone how Mordremoth himself does his thing. It’s stupid to say it’s stupid, simply because that assumes we know all about the dragons.

Ol’ Zhaitty was blown to kitten before his nature was fully understood. The other dragons have only indirectly been observed through their minions. This is the first time a dragon beyond Zhaitan has really showed it’s hand, and an army of shambling undead revealed little beyond his ability to raise dead. We just don’t know much about them, so one can’t judge based on what little we know.

While I’m not inclined to continue rehashing what is now an obsolete argument, I will correct misunderstandings:

we know (i think i’ve read this here in the forum) that corrupted creatures could not be corupted by other dragons.

We actually know the exact opposite – it is, in fact, possible for an entity to be corrupted by multiple dragons at once, as shown in CoE. In fact, the first time we saw the name Mordremoth came from one such creature.

It’s possibly harder for an already-corrupted creature, but it’s possible. This was one of the pillars of the original pre-release theory that was debunked. The theory’s supporters tried to wave this away by claiming that this “couldn’t happen in the wild” and imagining up all sorts of complex processes that the Inquest could have used – but there’s no evidence that the Inquest’s process was any more complicated than simply exposing a creature to energies from multiple dragons.

The only thing we know for sure is that it certainly IS possible for a creature corrupted by one dragon to be corrupted by another.

If anyone’s interested, I just finished a very long article on my blog defending the ‘sylvari are dragon minions’ reveal. I mostly focused on rebutting Konig’s points, because I thought his were the most well-argued (even if I disagree). Anyway, if you wanna read it, just head to…

http://wanderingstoryteller.tumblr.com/post/108218954415/rebuttal-why-the-sylvari-are-dragon-minions

…and enjoy. And now I’m going to go take a nap, because I spent an embarrassing amount of time on that post and I’m mentally exhausted. Ciao.

Tom Gore.4035:

gervasium.4567:

snip.

Yeah. Odds are they changed the Sylvari to be more “beautiful”, because ugly/monstrous races are generally not favored by players.

What about the Charr? XD

What about the Charr? They don’t have to conform to your body standards! Real people have curves! And sometimes fur. And horns. And maybe tails.

MailMail.6534:

Tom Gore.4035:

gervasium.4567:

snip.

Yeah. Odds are they changed the Sylvari to be more “beautiful”, because ugly/monstrous races are generally not favored by players.

What about the Charr? XD

To be fair, the charr do have the smallest share of the playerbase among all the races, according to the first anniversary figures.

The Greyhawk.9107:

Which was strongly implied, at the time of launch, to be Zhitain’s influence.

By the Pale Tree and Caithe, two characters we now know for certain knew that the sylvari were minions of Mordremoth and both of them had an vested interest in keeping that knowledge secret from as many people as possible.

Rius.7453:

So… uh… where is all the evidence that debunked this theory?

I’ve already presented some which you apparently didn’t read.

Rius.7453:

who has ragequit the forums, apparently

I did not.

I’ve decided to slip away slowly – only responding to responses to my recent posts. Helps destroys old habits to not stop them abruptly and suddenly.

Rius.7453:

It seems to me that the Tree was “freed” by means of many converging factors.

1) Being planted and growing before Mordremoth woke up
2) Being imprinted early with “good” teachings
3) Being planted out of reach of the dragons influence
4) Being (possibly) influenced by the human gods and the influence they had on Tyria’s magic
5) Being influenced by both Ronin and Ventari’s essence, as they both died practically on top of it

Drakkar, The Great Destroyer, Svanir – these were all dragon champions awake while the Elder Dragon slept; and none of them freed; Svanir’s personality outright changes in obvious manners, despite what little examples we had – like all who are corrupted.

Also, to quote an interview:

“The magic Elder Dragons use to corrupt things is ancient, powerful, and barely understood by the greatest magical minds on Tyria. There have been spells that could successfully cleanse a living thing of dragon corruption (see the Ruined City of Arah dungeon’s Forgotten path, or the climax of the Pact’s campaign in Orr) but they are not well understood, require significant resources to cast, and must be cast in a particular geographic location, so they are not universally available.”
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/New-lore-interview-to-Anet-lore-team/first#content

So it should be impossible to free a dragon champion – or any dragon minion – simply out of being good to them. This is one of the contradictions. If freeing dragon minions can be done by the power of love and friendship, then not only do we truly have a Saturday Morning Cartoon plot on our hands, but then it wouldn’t be so kitten hard for the scholars of the world to find a countering agent.

So since the sylvari are dragon minions, then they had to undergo some cleansing ritual.

As shown by Mazdak and other far-flung minions, distance doesn’t affect one’s lack of free will that all dragon minions have. Which brings us to the second contradtion: free will. Dragon minions – at least for risen, icebrood, branded, destroyer, and the non-sylvari mordrem – do not have such.

The third is appearance. All icebrood look the same; all destroyers look the same; all branded look the same; all risen look the same. Now, obviously not “the same” as in clones, but the same general appearance – risen have gray skin, are rotten and decayed, some (those submerged under water) have coral growing on them; branded are gray skinned, lacking hair, and have crystallized innards (concept art shows bones); icebrood appearance depends on amount of time spent corrupted, but over time their skin and hair then later muscle and sinew turn to ice, leaving just ice and bone; destroyers are all stone and lava. And amongst the “materials” they are made out of, the general shapes of the materials remains overall the same (for example, all destroyers have smooth, mostly rounded, stone on their bodies, with the exception of the disc-shaped destroyers in GW1). And purification by all our knowledge does not change one’s appearance: “Glint remained in crystalline form, but she regained her free will and identity.” http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ruined_City_of_Arah_%28explorable%29#Forgotten (this is referring to the ritual in the interview quote above). Sylvari look nothing like mordrem.

Fourth, we have the hive mind. We have outright confirmation of destroyers, of risen, of icebrood, and of branded (EoD battle with Kralkatorrik – implied by how he decides when to, and when to not, use his minions) having hive minds. To quote Killeen in Ghosts of Ascalon page 120 (as I have already in this thread): “It isn’t mind reading,” said Killeen, “and we aren’t all connected into one big mass mind. However, before we come into the world, the sylvari are united in the Dream of Dreams.” Now, this hive mind is an important aspect, because it is one of the many things in which people have noted that the dwarves – by undergoing the Rite of the Great Dwarf – have become practically mirror images of dragon minions (their mentality is altered – like dragon minions – their consciousness is linked – like dragon minions – they are no longer flesh and blood – like (most) dragon minions).

And the fifth is “immunity” (I use the term loosely because what happens is that sylvari simply die rather than become corrupted). Despite popular claim, Subject Alpha and Kudu’s Monster are credible sources for dragon minions not being immune to other dragons’ corruptions. While it is possible that the Inquest did something that is necessary for such to occur, and that this “something” would never, ever happen in the wild – the chances of such happening is rather slim, as despite the moral ambiguity of the Inquest, they have shown no signs of being capable of doing things not naturally possible. The sylvari immunity is implied to come from the Dream, however, so this may end up being a moot point in the end.

The sixth is intelligence. Dragon minions are easily categorized into four groups:

1. Grunts – self-term, not a canon one – the most populous; they are mindless and sans the risen, not even capable of speech
2. “Lieutenants” – self-term, not a canon one – very rare outside heavy corruption areas; these are often shown in-game as veteran ranked, they are capable of holding conversation (sans destroyer/mordrem), are decently tough (hence the veteran rank) even in lore, are in highest numbers when around a champion running an army, and can control small(er) groups (example: Kitah Conjurer in Malchor’s Leap)
3. Champions – these are the dragons’ ‘generals’, they lead the armies during invasions, are highly intelligent capable of advance strategies, and sans destroyers/mordrem capable of holding conversation while withholding assault even, and are very powerful (in-game, often seem to be represented as champion and legendary ranked).
4. Dragons – the most powerful, intelligence questionable but Glint implies common high intelligence, rarely seen outside realms of corruptions.

Sylvari don’t fit this at all, and this ranking system can be seen across all five seen minion examples (only exception is that those not once-living beings do not talk regardless of ranking; sans possibly Glint – and now the Pale Tree and every single sylvari out there).

And last but not least, number seven: What they consume. Dragon minions all consume magic. Proven during the Personal Storyline – not just the Elder Dragons and their champions (specialized or otherwise), but their minions consume magic. Sylvari, however, consume food and sunlight. Not magic. Their entire biological function differs from dragon minions.

Q: We know from the novels that they can eat food like the other races, but do they need to? Can they get energy by other means, like from the sun?

Ree: They need to eat and drink. Sylvari biology is very different from humans (and they can rest in the sun to feel rejuvenated), but they do have the same functional needs as most mammalian species.

So there’s seven aspects that are common across all dragon minions – all aspects, I’m fairly certain – that sylvari don’t fit.

And the sylvari were meant to be dragon minions from the start? Anet sure did go out of their way to make sure the sylvari are nothing like dragon minions. The one and only similarity they hold, apparently, is their time of showing up in the world.

And about the cave full of monstrous plant creatures? Yeah, like they didn’t exist in GW1, right?

The fact of the matter is that, until Season 2, the best argument for the hypothesis came from “Scarlet’s vision”:http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Short_Story:_What_Scarlet_Saw – the Pale Tree stating: “Please: go no further. In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.” But this line was very ambiguous, and for all we know, “the forces” could be anything from the world, the Mists, magic, the dragons, the gods, or whoever created the sylvari race (we had no clue then); and “us” could refer to “sylvari” “living beings” “Tyrians” “existence”. It was too ambiguous. Arguably, Vorpp’s dialogue in A Study in Scarlet when observing the piece of Omadd’s machine, where he states: " Ceara encountered something that literally broke her mind, but the only things in there were things she brought. I surmise she was directly exposed to a part of her own psyche that had been carefully walled off. Perhaps for her own protection? We’d need to do far more extensive study of the sylvari Dream before I could draw any more-detailed conclusions." – but again, how does this relate to the entity (who’s identity we did not know then). However even this line doesn’t necessarily mean sylvari in specific with the blocked pscyhe – for before that it is stated “But our minds are protected for a reason.” by Vorpp, an asura. So all minds are protected for a reason.

Until Mawdrey, there really was no solid evidence to support the theory – now? Of course there is, in hindsight, but most of the things were presented differently (CoE tied solely to the Nightmare, never to non-Nightmare; Shadow of the Dragon was told to us multiple times to be a shadow of Zhaitan, we got hints that the Nightmare was first encountered by Caithe/Faolain in Orr – I should find that source – and the Shadow actually is very similar in shape to Zhaitan’s dragon champions, whereas the other dragon champions are fully different in appearance – shape of the head, mainly). Most of those who came to the hypothesis literally presented it as being a random thought they had they partially researched, or by taking CoE’s tie to Nightmare-related things as “related to all sylvari”.

If this outcome truly was as Angel says – and while I cannot prove her being false to us, nor do I care to challenge such, I will say that she and Bobby Stein has been on damage control duty for each episode of Season 2, and that says a lot about the quality of the story – then there should have been hints. This seems more like something they realized post-release and thought “we can make this work!” But that’s my opinion on the matter and I’ll drop that there.

So there you have it, my cool-headed explanation for why sylvari=dragon minions doesn’t make sense. I don’t think I even went into this many topics when the hypothesis threads were presented – probably because I had gotten so tired of the hypothesis by the time I’ve noticed half of them.

Rius.7453:

Then there is the huge problem: we have no real idea how the dragons work. Mordremoth is clearly capable of CREATING life, while the other dragons simply corrupt existing things. The fact is we don’t know enough about them to judge how they, as a group, function. Let alone how Mordremoth himself does his thing. It’s stupid to say it’s stupid, simply because that assumes we know all about the dragons.

You are wrong on two accounts. First, about the “clearly capable of creating life” I point to another interview:

GuildMag: Starting in Episode 2, we see attacks from Mordremoth starting with vines erupting at a waypoint (having travelled there down a ley line) after which as well as mobile vine enemies, free-moving mordrem such as the wolves, husks, and Thrashers/Leechers appear. How do the latter group of Mordrem appear at the attack site? Are they carried by the vines, carried as seeds that rapidly germinate on-site, or are they corrupted from local flora and fauna? Or do they appear by some other means?

ArenaNet: There’s still a good deal of research happening to try to figure this out. However, what observation has revealed is that Mordrem do seem to emerge from the ground.

http://www.guildmag.com/lore-interview-september-2014/

Naturally, this is prior to the sylvari=dragon minion reveal, so this may no longer be true. However, it still points to it no longer being “clearly capable”.

The second is your statement that we have no real idea how the dragons work. We actually are capable to figure out a lot if you read through the lines. This is a huge topic in of itself, but as I’ve stated in this thread before, everything we know of the dragons can be split into two very general categories: things that are similar across all 4/5 dragons that we have examples of (excluding sylvari, the biggest odd man out ever), and things that are unique to one and only one dragon.

Their methodology of corruption, their personality instilled upon their minions, their actions over the centuries, the method of assault via minions, and Kralkatorrik’s own thoughts are all known to us. You can learn a lot through this.

Rius.7453:

Ol’ Zhaitty was blown to kitten before his nature was fully understood. The other dragons have only indirectly been observed through their minions.

Kralkatorrik in Edge of Destiny actually reveals quite a bit about the dragon directly – what he’s capable of, how he corrupts, how he thinks, etc. And you learn a lot through one’s subordinates, especially when they lack their own will, because they’re molded to the superior’s desires and needs.

DorDor.8617:

If anyone’s interested, I just finished a very long article on my blog defending the ‘sylvari are dragon minions’ reveal. I mostly focused on rebutting Konig’s points, because I thought his were the most well-argued (even if I disagree). Anyway, if you wanna read it, just head to…

http://wanderingstoryteller.tumblr.com/post/108218954415/rebuttal-why-the-sylvari-are-dragon-minions

…and enjoy. And now I’m going to go take a nap, because I spent an embarrassing amount of time on that post and I’m mentally exhausted. Ciao.

I felt it only fair to respond to this. You make some good points, but I don’t really agree with many. Mostly, it’s a base of interpretation.

• On the drawing/vision; the vision was incredibly vague and it really only makes sense in hindsight thakittens to this. As I mentioned, the lines could be interpreted in many ways due to that vagueness.
• What makes Mordy so special? Connection to Dream and Nightmare was the general thought at the time, as there was already evidence to the Nightmare being tied to Mordy (see CoE). Where that connection came from was unknown, but it is known that the Dream is not unique to sylvari – it’s unique to at least the Pale Tree’s sylvari and the White Stag. I’d stress the importance of both, but now that this hypothesis got confirmed as canon, that’s irrelevant I suppose. Though the White Stag – and the ability to physical enter the Dream even by non-sylvari (see: A Light in the Darkness) proves, to me, that the Dream is not originally Mordremoth’s.
• We were told by the Pale Tree that she knew Mordremoth was awake the instant it happened, implying a connection between the Tree and the dragon. Such an implication was made even between the Pale Tree and Zhaitan – how did she know that the Orders’ HQs would be attacked, for example? And in fact, this connection can extend to all Elder Dragons – why is she so bent on seeing all of them killed? Zhaitan was just the most imminent due to proximity; Mordremoth is now due to the threat level and reach of influence, but even so, she sends of sylvari to fight all dragons. The parallel to Glint is interesting – but there’s not much to say she didn’t/wouldn’t know when the other dragons would rise either; after all, they were all continent-shifting events.
• On Malyck and the vague lines by Amaranda: nothing really hints the cave was the forgotten cave, even now; Ronan found the seeds in a cave, to me this line – even now – simply refers to this: Malyck came from a different seed in that same cave. The question, for both interpretations, is “where does the distant shore come in?”
• If anyone knew the true origin of the Pale Tree’s seed, it would probably be the guy that found them in the first place. Hmmm, unlikely. It’s mentioned in Sea of Sorrows that until Zhaitan, Jormag was thought to be the only Elder Dragon (don’t know where though, but it was not in Act 1 or 2, I’m sure). This is the lore continuity error of Hidden Arcana, where Vekk and Gadd had books on the dragons – and their ability to consume magic. Ronan would be even less likely to know about Elder Dragons in his life, so how could he know that they’re mordrem?
• Arah. In one of the paths, the writers went into great detail about the Forgotten ritual and its capabilities. Writing 101: you don’t spend lots of time talking about a specific subject unless it’s something the audience needs to know. This was always on their to-do list. While that isn’t always true (sometimes you write on details just to flesh out the world, to make immersion better), before release on a now-removed Twitch video (ty Anet, for removing another source from us), Jeff and Ree talked about Glint’s children and how they may/will come back to that topic eventually – and more importantly, they intentionally made it vague on whether or not Glint’s freedom from Kralkatorrik affects the children.
  But there’s an important missing aspect you lack here; as pointed out above, the forgotten requires heavy resources and specific geological locations. Why would the Forgotten spend such time and effort on seeds?
• The skeleton of the theory was always there—that’s why people kept bringing it up on the Lore forum. As mentioned, most folks jump from CoE’s tying of Nightmare to Mordy, or just random thoughts, to make the hypothesis – or so they themselves stated. And most of what you mention is in the Living World – not there from the start – and is incredibly vague; barely a skeleton, more like just the brittle marrow.

• On appearance: Fair point. However, I suggest looking at mender and teragriff bodies too. They’re the closest to sylvari, but even then, very different. The Husks can easily be simply corrupted Summoned Husks – given the Nightmare Court connection, apparently, it’s not too unlikely. The yellow Thrasher and Wolves hold similarities too. But there’s a very clear sinisterism to these appearances; much like differentiating sylvan hounds from thorn wolves. And even the Nightmare Court, twisted by Mordremoth(?) lack this.
• On Sylvari looking humanoid: That was presented as an in-game theory. But the truth was revealed – though oh so quickly forgotten. The in-game theory is only part-right. ”However, because the race tightly relates to the essence of human due to the Pale Tree’s influences from Ronan, the overall form has a human silhouette. But if you look more closely, you’ll see the forms are really quite alien. They are a collection of abstract notions the Pale Tree had about what made up the human, as she really only saw the surface. They are a tree’s interpretation of humans.” http://www.talktyria.net/2011/08/11/sylvari-lore-interview-with-ree-soesbee-kristen-perry/
  Even so: teragriffs seem to be Mordremoth’s interpretation of colocals; and menders to be Mordremoth’s interpretation of trolls. This is very similar to Primordus with the destroyers, stated here by Jeff Grubb to be made in mockery of living beings.
• You act like dragon minions can’t form independent thoughts or do things that their masters didn’t tell them to do. But they can, and they have. I neither said nor meant this. However, I should note that while champions – and to a lesser degree what I dub “lieutenants” (see above posts) – do have a degree of freedom of choice, their will is that of their dragons, and their choices in the end cannot harm the dragon. Even the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan’s decision to let Trahearne and the Commander (aka PC) approach him beyond 4 powerful risen knights that if you get too close too soon utterly wtf slaughter you, he still spouted Zhaitan’s influence and belief of the dragon being right (“Defilers! Poisoners! We see you. We know your foul intent. These waters must remain as they are — and you must die!”).
  Risen tending to non-existent farms or mining landscapes with no ore is unique to dragon minions, but this isn’t really individual thought so much as something that seems to be unique to Zhaitan’s interests in corruption – he uses his minion’s past life abilities a lot. Were a sea captain before corruption? You’re a sea captain now! etc. etc. This is why you’d see a lot of risen where you’d expect them to be based on their former life.
• There are even examples of a minion’s independent agency hurting the cause. In Edge of Destiny, it was mentioned that corrupted Icebrood women are always killed by the other Icebrood, even though they’re willing servants of the dragon. -wrong buzzer noise- Not icebrood killing icebrood. Sons of Svanir kill the female icebrood. And this knowledge doesn’t come from EoD (EoD simply mention “men return as icebrood, women don’t come back at all”). This knowledge was finally confirmed for real in this interview And I should note, Sons of Svanir are not corrupted (yet).

• This is all part of a misconception that goes all the way back to the Rite of the Great Dwarf in Eye of the North, when all of the dwarves turned themselves to stone. In Eye of the North, there were multiple mentions of the new dwarf ‘collective consciousness’, and it was specifically pointed out that the ‘collective consciousness’ mirrors the one that the Destroyers share with the Great Destroyer (making it a valid comparison to both the sylvari and the Elder Dragons). It would be a misconception if it weren’t true. But “Gwen was right” – sayeth Ogden. And Jeff states there’s such a connection amongst icebrood; this is how the Dragonspawn was defeated in Edge of Destiny. That gray powerstone dust managed to block that hivemind (long enough to) result(ing) in the icebrood turning on it, no longer seeing it as an icebrood for there was no mental connection.
• But each dwarf still retained their independence and free will, despite supposedly being bound to the will of the Great Dwarf. For example, Ogden Stonehealer chose to remain on the surface, and still answers to the name ‘Ogden Stonehealer’, not ‘Dwarf Monk #4723’. Not really “each” dwarf, but it’s certainly more independence than what the dragon minions have – per my ranking above, they’d all be lieutenant at least in terms of intelligence; but there’s a clear alteration of personality. Most evident was Jalis. But they all have been fully about killing dragons – particularly destroyers – or protecting Glint/Glint’s children (hmmm, makes me wonder if she’s related to the ritual’s origin). Everything they did post-transformation has been to fight the dragons.
• Arenanet’s definition of ‘hive-mind’ is a very wonky one. You’re interpreting it to mean ‘one mind controlling multiple bodies’. In actuality, it’s more like ‘multiple minds with a telepathic connection to one mind’. Actually, the later is exactly what I was referring to. Except that 90% of the dragon minions are mindless (outright stated for destroyers, I believe). Those mindless, or near mindless, dragon minions are literally functioning off of “kill everything not in my head” (okay, not that literal, but the general jist is that); risen are, again, a bit unique because they have enough mentality – even grunts – to retain small parts of their past life, and the more corruption, the more intelligence and power, thus the more parts of their past life (just like any other dragon minion we’ve seen). The sylvari do not have any of this – as a sylvari herself states (again, see above posts), the Dream of Dreams is no hive mind.
• What the Forgotten ritual does is sever the connection between the multiple minds and the one. Technically, what we’re told it does is instill free will. Which wouldn’t necessarily mean separation from the hive mind. Though that’s not unlikely.
• For the Pale Tree, those minions are the sylvari and that consciousness is the Dream of Dreams. From the perspective of Killeen and other sylvari, they aren’t in a ‘mass mind’ because they can control everything they do… even though the Pale Tree could totally change that if she wanted to. But the Dream of Dreams is a physical location (see A Light in the Darkness), where beings other than sylvari can access (see White Stag and A Light in the Darkness). And it really isn’t a mass mind because they don’t have much of a connection to the Dream after waking – it’s a one-way street and they can’t tell who is or isn’t connected to the Dream or how. A Nightmare Courtier can be hidden amongst Dreamers at times:
  [quote]Question Three: Can Courtiers have their corruption detected by menders or other members of the community by either physical or empathic means?
  Scott McGough: Nightmare Courtiers often do register differently to other sylvari through their shared empathic connection, but it’s not always an obvious “take one look and you’ll know who’s Nightmare” situation. As stated above, they use many methods of persuasion to convince other sylvari to join their cause, and so they have developed common methods of masking their intentions in order to make inroads with potential new recruits without frightening those new recruits off.[/quote]http://www.guildwars2roleplayers.com/forum/m/2737230/viewthread/9902543-2rps-lore-interview-arenanet
• What are the implications of this? It means that the Forgotten ritual isn’t permanent or impenetrable, because Mordremoth was able to infiltrate the Dream. Well, implied by that twitch video that I mentioned, which was deleted (frowns at you Anet), Glint remained immune… but not necessarily her children. So if the same ritual was indeed used on mere seeds, then it only makes the seeds immune.

For me definite proof that Sylvari belonged to the dragon came from Scarlet’s exposure to Mordremoth along with Vorpps insistence that she was exposed to part of her own psyche rather than through an external input.

No offense meant but the above rebuttals could be summed up as “Sylvari/Pale Tree are not like other dragon minions”. Like you are going through every random note or statement looking for contradictions while missing the bigger picture.

The mordrem and Sylvari look as similar to me as the Destroyer harpies vs Destroyer trolls in a sense that they look absolutely nothing alike aside from the material they’re made of. Both destroyers appear to be made of lava and stone, whereas the mordrem seem to be primarily made of bark and leaves (and maybe a calcium based skull here and there http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Mordrem.jpg). The Sylvari also appear to be made of bark and leaves: http://amd-icbm.com/icbm/media/uploads/2011/08/WhintSeries.jpg

And we really don’t know enough about how dragons work. We have enough precedents to say what they have in common, but nothing about most of them personally, but each one is unique, and more importantly, very distant. The only ones we’ve actually seen firsthand were Kralkatorric and Zhaitan, and only one of them had any time to actually DO anything before anyone saw it.

It’s probably reasonable enough to say that the Sylvari stick out too much among dragon minions, but at the end of the day, we can’t say that this sort of thing is actually normal for that particular dragon. It’s entirely possible that Jormag has a personal nightclub filled with penguins far up north! We just don’t know, and that would be adorable! The point is, the dragons are still fairly enigmatic. To say they’re acting outside of x parameters is pointless. No one ever said they all had to make things the exact same way.

I’d also go into say we know the reason the Sylvari are so different is because of factors we already know, i.e. the Ventari tablets and being buried on dead people, but I have issues with that too. One being the aforementioned minion freeing ritual that SHOULD take lots of time, energy, and knowledge. A stone tablet is simply not enough. Also, why is Malyck also human shaped? Who else is going around planting those seeds on dead people?

With all these people rushing their pitchforks to torch the Sylvari, I’m taking my Human and Norn characters to lend the Sylvari my strength with the news of this. Clearly, protected by the Pale Tree, the Sylvari have the option to be good-natured like we know them. The betrayers are only those losing control to Mordremoth now that the Pale Tree is weakened.

To turn on your comrades in their hour of need ONLY speaks volumes of your own (lack of) character. My characters will be happy to dispatch those seeking to turn on Sylvari who are yet not under Mordremoth’s control. Those who are now corrupted, we must save somehow… and I bet it involves Caithe and the Egg

Konig Des Todes.2086:

-snip-

Regarding past hints: You said very little I disagree with. It’s true. There wasn’t enough evidence for the theory to stand on its own back then, and most of it only makes sense in hindsight. But the point I was making was that it was there, not that made sense and definitely not that supporting the theory back then (or even during Season 2) was the right call. You stated in your previous posts that you didn’t believe this was the writers’ plan for the sylvari from conception. That was where we parted ways.

Regarding the Pale Tree’s connection to Zhaitan: Remember that in the same instance, we’d just played through a vision of a potential future. The Pale Tree (also like Glint, funnily enough) has some degree of foresight. It wasn’t a sixth sense, it was a prophecy that unfolded just a few seconds later. But when Mordremoth awoke, her exact words were “I’ve known since the moment we’ve heard the roar”. Implying that before the roar, she didn’t know, ruling out prophecy.

Regarding Amaranda’s Vision: These were seeds with a clear connection to the Forgotten. The only cave (or even the only place in all of Maguuma) connected to the Forgotten was the one we fought the Shadow of the Dragon in. Would the Forgotten really go to all the trouble of purifying these seeds, only to leave them in some other, much more vulnerable cave? And regarding ‘distant shores’, that’s a pretty good point. My guess: Tyria’s west coast, which the map in the Priory archives tells us is near or adjacent to the Maguuma Wastes. Maybe that’s where Malyck’s tree is.

Regarding Ronan’s Knowledge: Well, he definitely knew something. Sure, there could be some other dark, forbidden secret on the nature of the sylvari, but that doesn’t seem very likely to me. He doesn’t necessarily have to know about the Elder Dragons, though. The concept could have easily been explained to him as "something very, very eeevil that you should probably look out for.

Regarding Arah: Definitely true, but too much unnecessary detail, and lingering on that detail for a while, is usually a bad move when it comes to writing. I’ve always been taught that the rule of thumb is to linger only on stuff that will be relevant later. It could have easily applied to Glint’s baby, though, didn’t think of that.

Regarding the Forgotten’s reasoning: We don’t know (and we probably never will), but there are plenty of likely reasons. Maybe they were still testing the ritual, and the seeds were the lab rats. Maybe they were hoping to plant the seeds and grow themselves an army, but the plan fell through. Maybe they were planning on using it like Caithe’s planning to use Glint’s egg: plant it, raise it, kill the dragon, and have the benevolent being they raised take its place.

Regarding the skeleton: Yeah, and the CoE stuff was still ultimately hinting at the connection. As I mentioned before, I never said that the skeleton by itself was worth taking seriously, only that the hints did exist at launch.

Regarding terragriffs: Nice catch with that. Never noticed it before.

Regarding minion classification: I’ve never seen anything in-game to support the idea of rank between grunt and champion. How do you know that the ‘lieutenants’ aren’t just grunts, and that grunts have more autonomy than you previously thought? I mean, many icebrood and branded don’t even have mouths (they’re iced/crystaled over), so they can’t exactly communicate with us like the Risen can.

Regarding Zhaitan’s minions: Zhaitan’s not the only dragon to do that. Icebrood quaggan, for example, still use spears (even though they have perfectly capable clawas and fangs) and are capable of speaking (they have aggro and death barks similar to Risen thralls), and Mordrem wolves use the tactics of an actual wolf (attacking in packs, attacking flanks [as the game tells us, they do more damage when attacking from the side], and even protecting corrupted cubs [go to Desperate Passage; there’s a regular-sized Mordrem wolf walking around with a group of noticeably smaller Mordrem wolves, it’s actually kind of cute in a really creepy way]) instead of just mindlessly murdering everything they encounter. It’s just more noticeable with Zhaitan, because Zhaitan deals almost exclusively in undeath and of all the Elder Dragons, we’ve interacted with him the most.

Regarding Icebrood and women: Ah. Knew I’d be wrong with something. Good catch.

Regarding the dwarves: Yeah, they’ve all been very single-minded about killing the Elder Dragons. But in a way, so are the sylvari. Many of them (I don’t think it’s all, but I’m not sure) are given a Wyld Hunt, a goal that they spend their entire lives trying to complete. Talking to the Wyld Hunt Valiants in Brisban, they all seem extremely driven. Their lust for Destroyer blood (magma?) seems like it works along the same lines—compelling them, but not outright forcing them. Also, if dwarves are all ‘lieutenants’, why can’t the sylvari be the same?

Regarding Destroyers: Yeah, it’s been stated that Destroyers are a complete, literal hive-mind. But that actually supports the theory a bit, because not all dragon minions are on that level. As noted above, Risen, Mordrem, and Icebrood have been seen wielding weapons, doing things independently, and even talking. Destroyers can’t do any of that. Either they’re killing or they’re looking for something to kill. There’s a sliding scale here, and the sylvari are just much closer to ‘autonomous’ than the others.

Regarding the Dream of Dreams: I’ve never seen evidence that the Dream is physical. In fact, there’s quite a bit against it. For example: new sylvari players are both killing the Shadow and growing in our pods at the same time, implying a vision instead of an actual fight. If the Dream is a physical place, where is it? The Mists? Another plane of existence? How do you know Light in the Darkness wasn’t just a vision inside of a mindscape instead of being physically teleported into a facsimile of Orr? And then there’s the memory seeds. We’re going into the Dream during Seeds of Truth (The memory seeds are tapping into the collective knowledge the sylvari passively store in the Dream, and there’s a palette swap during the flashbacks that all Dream-related missions have), and yet Marjory mentioned guarding us, implying an out-of-body experience. Maybe it’s not necessarily in the players’ heads, but it’s not a physical place either.

Regarding the sylvari hive-mind: Well, to my knowledge, dwarves don’t have a sixth sense regarding their proximity to other dwarves, either (and dwarves seem to be the best comparison here). And the Icebrood hive-mind used in Edge of Destiny didn’t seem to involve a sixth sense either; it was just a standing order from Jormag/the Dragonspawn not to attack Icebrood or their allies (the Sons of Svanir). When the Dragonspawn’s hold over them was broken, there was nothing compelling them to remain civil. And even if they did have a sixth sense to detect sylvari cut off from the Dream, it wouldn’t work on the Nightmare Court (who are still technically a part of the Dream, just the run-down, nasty part of it). But it would work on Soundless.

Regarding the White Stag: I’m not quite sure what to make of the White Stag, to be honest. There is a little theory I’m working on now, though. Basically: If the Pale Tree functions like a freed dragon champion, she might be capable of spreading her own special brand of corruption. That corruption tagged the White Stag, bringing it into the collective consciousness. I still don’t know how it’s able to enter the Dream at will, though.

Avariz.8241:

There is now a possibility of two distinctive races of Sylvari. The Sylvari of the Pale Tree who are anti-Mordremoth; and ‘pre-sylvari’ who are dragon minions. In the future with the Guildwars 2: Heart of Thorn ‘expansion’, we the player most likely will be fighting Mordremoth that would include these ‘pre-sylvari’ as dragon minions. The pale tree Sylvari would most likely fighting along side us against Mordremoth and the ‘pre-sylvari’ in general.

Edit: The parallelism would liken Glint, glint children, and agents fighting with us in GW1 against our enemy.

Not to mention you have a Sylvari with a sword and shield crying, “What are you doing, we are not your enemy.” The fact the Pale Tree was acting as a defense against Mordremoth puts the Sylvari in a entirely different state than say Zhaitan’s Risen. Although this also makes me worry that Mallyck could be… “troublesome”.

After all, not all Sylvari are likely to turn evil – that’s just the plot of fear mongering. “Any one of them could turn next.” Vibe. The player character will obviously be immune, I just hope they do get some unique dialog that Sylvari players can sift through that reflects the hostilities that may take place in Heart Of Thorns.

There’s also Caithe making the comment along the lines of, “Defying destiny.” So clearly she’s not evil, she’s still got a plan and likely leading to a way to undo Mordremoth.

DorDor.8617:

Regarding the Pale Tree’s connection to Zhaitan: Remember that in the same instance, we’d just played through a vision of a potential future. The Pale Tree (also like Glint, funnily enough) has some degree of foresight. It wasn’t a sixth sense, it was a prophecy that unfolded just a few seconds later. But when Mordremoth awoke, her exact words were “I’ve known since the moment we’ve heard the roar”. Implying that before the roar, she didn’t know, ruling out prophecy.

Exactly. I proposed the same theory that it was an error in translation due to limited knowledge on the subject of their origin that lead to the miss-identification of Zhaitan being responsible; not Mordremoth. Simple. There was little more than data in CoE that suggested Mordremoth even existed to the player in-character-wise.

draxynnic.3719:

While I’m not inclined to continue rehashing what is now an obsolete argument, I will correct misunderstandings:

we know (i think i’ve read this here in the forum) that corrupted creatures could not be corupted by other dragons.

We actually know the exact opposite – it is, in fact, possible for an entity to be corrupted by multiple dragons at once, as shown in CoE. In fact, the first time we saw the name Mordremoth came from one such creature.

In the case of Subject Alpha, I still find that bit of evidence to be questionable as the events that transpired were unique. They were not natural by any means. To further support my theory here, remember the worker who you speak to explains that the Crucible is used to split energies, refine and, what I believe, re-purpose them. As I had stated in the past, we have not heard nor seen the cross-corruption take place in the natural environment due to many reasons but the fact it has not been sighted remains until further evidence proves otherwise.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

ElysianEternity.6215:

Squee.7829:

We don’t really know what entailed getting Glint free, or if the tablets were solely responsible for freeing the tree.

Uhm… we know exactly what it entails, we replicated the Forgotten ritual on a smaller scale in Arah exp on lil’ Twitchy and freed it of Zhaitan’s control. :x

One of these days I will get to do Arah explorable and see this stuff.

True tho that we don’t know what’s more to the Pale tree. Though… I think I just said, it was the common theory with it being based on mostly friendship&love!! that’s bothered me and how close the current reveal we got is to it.
Though I’ll also say that it is fine by me if the full reveal is without all the things that made this theory unfounded (and cringeworthy) aka the tablet and its power of love being the bane of EDs.

It’s probably not the tablet and power of love directly so much as it is . . . sort of like imprinting a spirit into it, perhaps? Repeated workings or readings almost ritualized having been binding the will of Ronan and Ventari into the tablet itself and thus seeping into the Pale Tree over time?

I mean, it could be written in a way so that it isn’t just out as “the nurturing power of love triumphs over evil nature” while retaining the same essence of the thoughts.

Besides, we know what the bane of Elder Dragons is.

Cannonfire.

While I don’t want to throw us off track here with further theories of non-related origin. Some people do believe that ghosts actually exist simply because enough aura of a person had imprinted onto any object of particular thus creating a copy-like ghostly image, which suggests why ghostly miners are seen repeating the same duty in some cases – reliving their moments be it famous entertainment or anger.

I do not think Ventari’s tablet is magical so to speak, at least not yet. However, I am inclined to believe that even in a fetal stage, The Pale Tree was listening. No different than the fetus in the womb kicking, it is conscious but it can’t quite understand what is going on outside of the mother. But this went on for years as well, decades even, inception.

Ronin.7381:

draxynnic.3719:

While I’m not inclined to continue rehashing what is now an obsolete argument, I will correct misunderstandings:

we know (i think i’ve read this here in the forum) that corrupted creatures could not be corupted by other dragons.

We actually know the exact opposite – it is, in fact, possible for an entity to be corrupted by multiple dragons at once, as shown in CoE. In fact, the first time we saw the name Mordremoth came from one such creature.

In the case of Subject Alpha, I still find that bit of evidence to be questionable as the events that transpired were unique. They were not natural by any means. To further support my theory here, remember the worker who you speak to explains that the Crucible is used to split energies, refine and, what I believe, re-purpose them. As I had stated in the past, we have not heard nor seen the cross-corruption take place in the natural environment due to many reasons but the fact it has not been sighted remains until further evidence proves otherwise.

I agree – it seems the corruption can be admixtured into the same being, but not naturally. It would take willingly and artificially doing it. It is also uncertain what effects it has – will a being who has been rendered an Icebrood and then mixed in with Branded effects follow Jormag or Kralkatorrik with regards to whose will? Or . . . more alarmingly . . . does it possess the power entrusted to it and the power infused into it but now having no master other than its own impulses? Hard to say. It’s definitely one thing to keep in mind, isn’kitten

Oh, sorry, mild derailment of the topic. Hold on.

And in strange times even Dreams may die!

. . . there.

Well.

I’m sticking to my theory that the dragons came back to save the world from the trees. Ol’ Mordy didn’t create the sylvari, and he sure as tail clipping didn’t corrupt them — last time this ages old battle was fought, the sylvari corrupted Ol’ Mordy! He still bears the scars, infested, as he is, with shrubs and bushes and stinkweed. Yes, fellow lorelings, last time around, the trees came dangerously close to winning the war.

All these lesser being running around thinking it’s all about them — meh. Cannon fodder! For the dragons, that is, and exclusively so… until this last engagement, when the Pale Tree, being smarter, bolder, more insidiously brilliant than any previous tree, began ‘recruiting’ them — humans, charr, asura, and norn — as her own minions, by using (wait for it) the Power of Friendship. Ahem. And maybe a little mind control pollen. And it was working! Zhaitan — dead! But she was overconfident, and basked a little too long in the brilliance of her own brilliance…

Meanwhile, young Ceara realized what was happening, and she rebelled, for she so loved the world that she could not bear to see it destroyed by the evil trees. Bless her knotty little heartwood, she set about to awaken Ol’ Mordy before the Pale Tree was ready for him, because she knew Mordy was the one dragon that might have a chance to stand up to the trees this time around. And it looks like she was right. Ol’ Mordy has indeed learned a thing or two from his last encounter with the trees, and is clearly prepared for any arboreal tricks.

Evidence: well, of course, there is none. That’s part of the plan. The sylvari have infiltrated every order, every institution, pretty much everything everywhere, and therefore have been able to ensure that any and all evidence of the evilness of the trees has been destroyed. One might even say that the lack of evidence is evidence!

As for Malyck, I suspect his tree sprouted in some area where something is somehow preventing its roots from joining with the worldwide root system shared by all the other trees. It’s probably very confused. And lonely.

Aragorn (sitting on a wolf): What do you hear?
Legolas (spinning his bow with such grace and speed that he is hovering in the air like an elven helicopter): I hear nothing. But good golly gosh, man, the feels.

I can’t even be mad. I’m just disappointed.

This last episode is such a mixed bag. Nice callbacks to GW1, good boss battle, awesome ending cinematic… and then this nosedive in writing. Heck, nosedive doesn’t even do it justice. It’s more of a divecoaster.

So what happened to that giant flower in the trailer?