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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

By the way, Konig is right in saying that the vast majority of his arguments come from in-game knowledge (with the exception of lieutenants, which has no legs of its own to stand on). That includes the lore on dragon reproduction.

No, we’ve seen dragon minions that can reproduce before.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Dragon minions are savage and bloodthirsty and ferocious, but unless you’re dealing with a champion, they are oh so predictable, and that makes them very vulnerable to the sort of out-of-the-box thinking common among sentient beings (which just so happen to be the dragons’ greatest enemy). That’s been used to our advantage countless times in the overall story. We know the dragons themselves are self-aware and actually pretty clever when they put their minds to something. What’s stopping Mordremoth from realizing that this is a problem, and creating new, more independent minions to compensate? We know that dragons are capable of creating minions with some level of independence (champions), and there’s nothing in-lore that says they can’t apply those principles to their foot soldiers.

Quite a few non champion Risen(the mesmers) are quite smart, which makes them very dangerous.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Actually Scarlet and Arein showed us that even after being corrupted by Mordremoth, they still have the same intelligence.

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Posted by: DorDor.8617

DorDor.8617

By the way, Konig is right in saying that the vast majority of his arguments come from in-game knowledge (with the exception of lieutenants, which has no legs of its own to stand on). That includes the lore on dragon reproduction.

No, we’ve seen dragon minions that can reproduce before.

That’s true. But they’re exceptions. The general rule of thumb is “If a creature was pregnant when it was corrupted, then it can still pop out babbies”, but it can’t get pregnant after the corruption takes place. There are also instances where a champion looks like it’s laying eggs, but it’s actually just creating more minion constructs (the Destroyer in the skritt Personal story step is a prime example, and so is Glint).

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Posted by: DorDor.8617

DorDor.8617

Dragon minions are savage and bloodthirsty and ferocious, but unless you’re dealing with a champion, they are oh so predictable, and that makes them very vulnerable to the sort of out-of-the-box thinking common among sentient beings (which just so happen to be the dragons’ greatest enemy). That’s been used to our advantage countless times in the overall story. We know the dragons themselves are self-aware and actually pretty clever when they put their minds to something. What’s stopping Mordremoth from realizing that this is a problem, and creating new, more independent minions to compensate? We know that dragons are capable of creating minions with some level of independence (champions), and there’s nothing in-lore that says they can’t apply those principles to their foot soldiers.

Quite a few non champion Risen(the mesmers) are quite smart, which makes them very dangerous.

Smart =/= predictable. And Risen mesmers don’t need to be smart, per se, they just need to have enough knowledge to know how to cast their illusions.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Smart =/= predictable. And Risen mesmers don’t need to be smart, per se, they just need to have enough knowledge to know how to cast their illusions.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Labwan_the_Deceiver

This one planned to kill Tactician Syska then disguised as her for at least a week, at the same time she also speaks and act like Syska without rising much suspicion before she carried out of her plan-Frame the PC then ambush Traherane. That require quite a lot of intelligence.

Also during the same quest chain, you will encounter a illusion of Trahearne. You can obviously find that his speech pattern and behavior is different than the real one. So even with illusion, one would need enough intelligence to disguise the speech pattern and behavior.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

That’s true. But they’re exceptions. The general rule of thumb is “If a creature was pregnant when it was corrupted, then it can still pop out babbies”, but it can’t get pregnant after the corruption takes place. There are also instances where a champion looks like it’s laying eggs, but it’s actually just creating more minion constructs (the Destroyer in the skritt Personal story step is a prime example, and so is Glint).

Laying egg and create more minions don’t contradict each other.

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Posted by: ThatOddOne.4387

ThatOddOne.4387

Basically to summarise this thread:

- Konig broke.
- His horde of sycophants begged him not to leave because he is the ‘loremaster’.

And it’s hilarious.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

We really can’t assume different dragons’ minions as a whole.

Zhaitan’s Risen are based on a real human kingdom, since most of them once were Orr’s humans. It’s not just champions/grunts, but there are many more ranks among the Risen. Many of these Risen’s strength were based on their former humans selves. So not just the champions, the powerful princes/archmages/priests/mesmers still maintain their intelligence to make them a powerful and twisted version of their former selves.

The others weren’t like that, Jormag and Kralkatorrik’s Icebrood/Branded weren’t that organized. It’s more like champion/grunt style, the Sons of Svanir Shaman mostly served as “the brain” when there is no champion around.

Primordus’s Destroyers weren’t corrupted mortals, they have a hive mind. Not sure about Mordremoth but at least the Mordrem have similar hive mind as the Destroyers.

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Posted by: Wanderer.3248

Wanderer.3248

They have nothing in common with dragon minions.

As far as we have seen.

I find it highly unlikely that we have seen all kinds of Dragon Minions. In fact we have probably seen rather few of them all in all.

That doesn’t make it inconsistent.

We haven’t seen Tom Bombadil go skipping through the meadows either.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Also we don’t know too much about Kralkatorrik for now. Jormag is the most well known dragon beside Zhaitan.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

I also think it’s not that the Risen’s mind has been corrupted, but the their body were possessed by the dragon’s power and will. The lesser ones are mindless because less power was used on them. The Dragon’s will took control of their intelligence and memory. Romke and his crew’s spirit were not corrupted but their bodies were still turned into Risen.

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Posted by: DorDor.8617

DorDor.8617

Smart =/= predictable. And Risen mesmers don’t need to be smart, per se, they just need to have enough knowledge to know how to cast their illusions.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Labwan_the_Deceiver

This one planned to kill Tactician Syska then disguised as her for at least a week, at the same time she also speaks and act like Syska without rising much suspicion before she carried out of her plan-Frame the PC then ambush Traherane. That require quite a lot of intelligence.

Also during the same quest chain, you will encounter a illusion of Trahearne. You can obviously find that his speech pattern and behavior is different than the real one. So even with illusion, one would need enough intelligence to disguise the speech pattern and behavior.

Yeah, but given the sheer amount of power she and the fact that she plays a unique role in Zhaitan’s army, she can easily be considered a champion. Also, I didn’t say that grunts couldn’t have such intelligence (my theory actually relies on it), only that they are, for the most part, mindless.

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Posted by: DorDor.8617

DorDor.8617

Basically to summarise this thread:

- Konig broke.
- His horde of sycophants begged him not to leave because he is the ‘loremaster’.

And it’s hilarious.

I might not agree with everything Konig has said and done since the reveal (in fact, I disagree with pretty much all of it), but that’s just a cheap shot, both to Konig and the people that support him. Please have some respect for your fellow human beings.

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Posted by: DorDor.8617

DorDor.8617

They have nothing in common with dragon minions.

As far as we have seen.

I find it highly unlikely that we have seen all kinds of Dragon Minions. In fact we have probably seen rather few of them all in all.

That doesn’t make it inconsistent.

We haven’t seen Tom Bombadil go skipping through the meadows either.

But Tom Bombadil skipping through the meadows would be ridiculous in Guild Wars. A dragon minion different than the others we’ve encountered is significantly more plausible, and can still make sense in a larger context if written correctly.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Yeah, but given the sheer amount of power she and the fact that she plays a unique role in Zhaitan’s army, she can easily be considered a champion. Also, I didn’t say that grunts couldn’t have such intelligence (my theory actually relies on it), only that they are, for the most part, mindless.

I don’t think Zhaitan use champion-grunt style on its minions(at least the human ones), it more likely gave power on its minion based on their value. We can see there are numerous ranks among the Risen rather than just champions and grunts, it’s like a real human kingdom’s twisted version.

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Posted by: Tachenon.5270

Tachenon.5270

Tom Bombadil would be immune to dragon corruption.

The table is a fable.

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Posted by: Tachenon.5270

Tachenon.5270

A blast from the past: ‘The Races of Tyria’, represented by Logan, Rytlock, Eir, Zojja — all who look pretty much as they do now — and Caithe, who looks… well… different. We all know about that, of course, but I thought it might be nice to refresh those memories.

All those other sylvari — so much less barky. They look trustworthy as can be in that picture, don’t they. But they were dragon minions, even then! And Caithe, even before the makeover, knew it! O, leafy betrayer! Drink deep of the warm salty tears of those who counted you a friend! I name thee, Doomberry!

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Posted by: Squee.7829

Squee.7829

Something Rius said earlier really seems to make the most sense to me in this whole “Why do Sylvari seem so different” situation. (My perma-link options arent working right, so sorry for just copy/pasting what he/she said all unprofessionally):

“The work around there would be seeds, meant to be grown and fed by the dragon’s power around his awakening. The Pale Tree’s seed was removed from his influence and planted long before it could feed off of him, leading it to be fed and influenced by the “pure” magic than flows through Tyria. Considering the size of the tree, the roots probably hit a ley line somewhere. Therefore it has been sustained by an entire different form of magic as compared to other dragon minions.
It would seem that before awakening, he was still too weak to form any real champions, let alone control a champion that was born early and raised outside of his influence. The tree was planted and became conscious and alive around 300 years before Mordremoth was supposed to awaken and around 250 years before he actually did awaken. That alone drastically sets it apart from other champions which either existed before or were created around/after the dragon’s awakening.”

The context I got from all this being that the dragon’s Champions were all created by their minions, and for whatever reason, resided NEAR their dragon overlord during their sleep. I figure either the champions were made last cycle and rested nearby until they were reactivated, (like the Great Destroyer probably was) or created just after awakening (like the Shatterer probably was). Either way, proximity was probably one of the big two factors here. The dragons wouldn’t have a very far reaching influence while they slept.

The other factor being the material of the minion/champion. Stone, crystal, and even undead minions can likely be made today, deactivated for x thousands of years, then recalled after a few millenia. Plants are not so long lasting. Mordremoth’s minions seem to be a lot more organic than other minions, excepting maybe Zhaitan’s. This would make longevity for his minions a bit of a problem UNLESS he preserves his future minions in the form of seeds. Much like how conifers survived the ice age by using cones as organic stasis pods, Mordremoth’s seeds would be the stasis for his minions later on, and kept close by where his influence would reach said seeds, even while he was in deep sleep.

Thus the problem arises when some prick comes along and takes these seeds a little outside the range of where Mordremoth’s current influence lies. Breaking the Pale Tree out of her creator’s influence might not need to require a lot of energy if the dragon’s influence simply never reached her. At least not enough to morph her into a minion.

Just a thought at least.

Leader and sole member of the “Bring Penguins to Tyria” movement.

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Posted by: Zaxares.5419

Zaxares.5419

I still think that Sylvari (and potentially other types of Mordrem such as the Thrashers) are Dragon minions only in the sense that their race has a long history intertwined with Mordremoth. The race of the Pale Tree may have been an ancient species on Tyria, similar to the Giganticus Lupicus, that were conquered long ago by Mordremoth and assimilated into his armies. This makes them especially susceptible to his corruption due to his tinkering with their “DNA”, but they are still a distinct living species in their own right, different from corrupted minions such as Mordrem Trolls, Teragriffs, and other standard Dragon minions like Destroyers, Risen and Icebrood.

In essence, the Sylvari are a bit like a livestock race for Mordremoth; a domesticated species that Mordremoth uses as a springboard to create dedicated corrupted minions from.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Sylvari are plants all the way in – their organs are planty analogues of what humans have, such as a pitcher plant stomach. This was revealed in an old interview on the sylvari – may be on TowerTalk.

By the way, Konig is right in saying that the vast majority of his arguments come from in-game knowledge (with the exception of lieutenants, which has no legs of its own to stand on). That includes the lore on dragon reproduction.

You must have either missed or ignored my post…

While the terms aren’t used ingame, the ‘grunt’ and ‘lieutenant’ classes clearly exist. Most dragon minions are automatons, but some non-champion minions clearly do have more self-awareness than the typical Risen farmer which continues pointlessly tilling dead land until something disturbs it.

However, the distinction seems to be that it’s entirely the dragon’s choice what the ratio is. There’s nothing stopping a dragon from having an entire army of “lieutenants” – such an army will simply require more investment of magic than a similar-sized army of “grunts”.

The mechanism came out of an interview, but I’m a bit busy this week to go chasing up things outside of my current projects.

You can object to the terms if you like – personally, I’d prefer to think of them in terms of “cannon fodder” and “elite soldiers” – but there are some non-champion minions that are intelligent and some that are not. There’s just nothing stopping any given dragon from choosing its own balance of forces. It’s possible that a dragon could potentially use champions exclusively if it chose to invest magical energy in that manner, but obviously this would only give it a few dozen champions where it could have had an army.

@Zaxares: Interesting theory. Wynne did say “We were meant to serve the jungle dragon” – not that they are dragon minions that gained free will. It’s a subtle distinction, but it would be hilarious if after all this it does get turned around altogether into the sylvari simply being a convenient source of minions rather than minions themselves.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Erukk.1408

Erukk.1408

draxynnic.3719

@Zaxares: Interesting theory. Wynne did say “We were meant to serve the jungle dragon” – not that they are dragon minions that gained free will. It’s a subtle distinction, but it would be hilarious if after all this it does get turned around altogether into the sylvari simply being a convenient source of minions rather than minions themselves.

As much as I like and really really want to believe that theory, her full statement was, “We come from the jungle dragon. We belong to it. We’re meant to serve it."

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

It’s just terrible writing. I can’t really understand how the writing team went with the most predictable conclusion, and stuck with it. Whether they intended this to be the back story for the Sylvari from the start is a bit of a mood-point. But why did they stick with it? It’s a terrible none-twist.

I don’t really write grade-A literature myself, but when I come up with a twist in a story, and my readers guess it immediately, I change it. I don’t want my story twists to be that predictable.

A good twist has everyone go “Ah, it all makes sense now, the pieces of the puzzle are all falling into place”. -I did not have that reaction to this reveal. I just facepalmed, and shook my head. Bad writing, BAD!

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

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Posted by: lordkrall.7241

lordkrall.7241

So, you would rather that they changed their years long plan just because people figured it out early?
In most cases changing your story based on reactions/thoughts/theories from the readers/watchers/community ends up making the story worst.

And if they DID change it, we would have the issues with hints being dropped and then suddenly those hints would mean a grand total of nothing at all, simply because they decided to change the part of the story that it led up to. And then we would most likely have just as many people (and probably a couple of the same people) complain about them adding in stuff that is completely irrelevant.

The fact that people have been very rather abusive to people that have stood by the theory would actually suggest that it was not as predictable as you want to claim. Why else would people tell those that suggested it that they were wrong all those times?

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Posted by: Neilos Tyrhanos.5427

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427

It’s just terrible writing. I can’t really understand how the writing team went with the most predictable conclusion, and stuck with it. Whether they intended this to be the back story for the Sylvari from the start is a bit of a mood-point. But why did they stick with it? It’s a terrible none-twist.

I don’t really write grade-A literature myself, but when I come up with a twist in a story, and my readers guess it immediately, I change it. I don’t want my story twists to be that predictable.

A good twist has everyone go “Ah, it all makes sense now, the pieces of the puzzle are all falling into place”. -I did not have that reaction to this reveal. I just facepalmed, and shook my head. Bad writing, BAD!

You’re judging the majority of players by Lore-forum-reader standards. We might have guessed it, but we’re really unrepresentative.

The majority of players won’t have guessed it.

EDIT: This reminds me, actually, of the various theories about ASOIAF. If you head into a forum, there are loads of people taking certain theories as a given, assuming they’re true. Some aren’t even questioned at this point. Yet, the majority of readers certainly won’t have guessed, because the majority don’t pore over it like the forumites do.

(edited by Neilos Tyrhanos.5427)

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

The fact that people have been very rather abusive to people that have stood by the theory would actually suggest that it was not as predictable as you want to claim. Why else would people tell those that suggested it that they were wrong all those times?

Abusive? I have seen nothing of the sort.

EDIT: This reminds me, actually, of the various theories about ASOIAF. If you head into a forum, there are loads of people taking certain theories as a given, assuming they’re true. Some aren’t even questioned at this point. Yet, the majority of readers certainly won’t have guessed, because the majority don’t pore over it like the forumites do.

In Game of Thrones there are a lot of weird speculations about the plot. The thing with that book series though, is that everything eventually makes sense. And one of those very persistent speculations has recently been proven to be false (the Coldhands speculation).

George RR Martin is very subtle in dropping hints, and he also provides a lot of red herrings. Undoubtedly some people will have guessed some things correctly, and maybe some of that will be revealed soon. And it’s a good thing that he doesn’t alter the plot just because some people guessed it correctly.

With the Sylvari however, people were yelling it as soon as we went into the Mordremoth plot. They instantly guessed it. And a lot of lore fans still disagreed, because it simply did not make sense considering what we knew, and know today, about dragon minions. And that still holds true, it doesn’t make sense. But regardless, the writers should have reconsidered. It wasn’t a very good twist, and it didn’t have a very good basis either from a lore point of view.

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

On the Sylvari

I notice however a far bigger problem: The Sylvari just aren’t very well written to begin with. I saw a lot of early sketches of the Sylvari before release, which portrayed them as sort of eery fairy-like creature. And that take on them seemed far more intriguing. What we got however, was a very simplified race. One that is at its worst just pure black hat (nightmare court), and at its best just very bland and without any edge what so ever.

There was a real opportunity here for the writers, to delve into the Nightmare Court, and show us that things aren’t quite so black and white. That the Nightmare Court aren’t just evil, but a valid alternative philosophy. But the real disappointment comes from how they’ve done exactly the opposite. I think this also explains a lot of the disappointment regarding the idiot-ball plot with Caithe’s storyline. Its not just that Caithe is so willfully ignorant of reality to further the plot, but also that Faolain is so incredibly unrealistically black-hat. There seems no nuance, and it utterly ruins the race in my opinion.

I would have loved to see a clash of philosophies. One about conformity to the standard and loyalty to the Pale Tree, and one of freedom of expression, and exploration of truth rather than scripture. But it seems that the writers are afraid to write the Pale Tree as the villain, from the point of view of the Nightmare Court, and to have the players empathize with their side, rather than that of the other Sylvari. It is as if things have to be so utterly simplified, as a lot of poor fantasy writing tends to be, with very obvious and unrealistic stereotypes, where there is no nuance to the bad guys.

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

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Posted by: Tachenon.5270

Tachenon.5270

Now I want to make an snowy white sylvari with blue flowers. Azure Oh Hai, the minion that was mentioned, wielding the legendary sword Spitefinger. And he will show Ol’ Mordy and all the other Elder Dragons who is the boss of whom.

First, though, we need some sort of mount system. Azure can’t fulfill his destined destiny until we’re able to RIDE the dragons!

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Posted by: zwierz.9012

zwierz.9012

I have a possible explanation as to “why sylvari don’t look like mordrem” – it is not grounded or supported enough to be a theory I think, it is just an idea:

So we know that Ronan found the seed in a cave protected by plant monsters, planted it etc, right?

What if sylvari DO belong to the Dragon, but aren’t “minions” – only Pale Tree is.

Let’s assume that the seed was indeed purified from Dragon influence somehow (it doesn’t matter how for the idea). We know that freeing from dragon control doesn’t change the look of a creature, but what if it was cleansed when it was just a seed (hibernating until dragon needs it, or whatever)? Would a growing dragon Champion Pale Tree not be able to modify how it looked like while in the grow stage?

And following that, wouldn’t the free Dragon CHampion Pale Tree (assuming of course that it had the power to create underlings) be able to shape and create said underlings shaping them how it willed?

So my idea is: Maybe Pale Tree is a free Dragon Champion with the power to create underlings at will, and has shaped them to look like sylvari etc. to fight it’s creator?
That way not only we could explain away why the sylvari don’t look like other minions, but resemble humans (Ronan and his family’s skeletons), but also why “they belong to the jungle dragon” and at the same time player characters aren’t brainless minions.

Following that, Pale Tree could create them with patterns she had implanted by Mordie (humanoids, thorn wolves – we have mordrem wovles and trolls etc. so we know that he mimics fleshy creatures, if not corrupts), but changed them to resist him, thus giving free will, or equivalent by modifying the hive mind.

Maybe all mordrem are created by pale trees – maybe the tree is just how Mord creates him minions, a living, sentient factory, waiting in stasis while dragon sleeps, and waking when it’s time to spew out minions.

Of course, this is just an idea I built from various theories I heard, I have no proof to even make it a thesis. It would explain the origin of Pale Tree, differences between sylvari and mordrem and lots of other problems, right?

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Posted by: Neilos Tyrhanos.5427

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427

In Game of Thrones there are a lot of weird speculations about the plot. The thing with that book series though, is that everything eventually makes sense. And one of those very persistent speculations has recently been proven to be false (the Coldhands speculation).

Which speculation is that, sorry?

As far as I know, none of the various theories about Coldhands’ identity have been disproven.

With the Sylvari however, people were yelling it as soon as we went into the Mordremoth plot. They instantly guessed it. And a lot of lore fans still disagreed, because it simply did not make sense considering what we knew, and know today, about dragon minions. And that still holds true, it doesn’t make sense. But regardless, the writers should have reconsidered. It wasn’t a very good twist, and it didn’t have a very good basis either from a lore point of view.

Well, this is still a matter of opinion. I think it fits just fine: there’s nothing we’ve learned about Dragon Minions which excludes them. Just a few characteristics they don’t share with others, the importance of which has been (imo) inflated (like that they consume magic, like their masters. Who says they all must do so? It’s a plot element which hardly ever even came up).

On the other hand the Nightmare and Soundless, and the questions they raise over whether Sylvari were being true to their nature, are both relevant and recurring issues. The presence of the Shadow of the Dragon in the Sylvari character’s starting instance is another clue— sufficiently ambiguous, but makes sense.

The novelty of the race, at a time in which the Dragons are only just resurfacing, should have been another clue.

There are clues, and they’re perfectly sensible.

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Posted by: BobbyStein

BobbyStein

Guild Wars 2 Narrative Lead

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Thanks, everyone, for posting your thoughts here. It means a lot to us that you continue to discuss and debate the story and lore.

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Posted by: Neilos Tyrhanos.5427

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427

I notice however a far bigger problem: The Sylvari just aren’t very well written to begin with

I can agree there, to a degree.

There was a real opportunity here for the writers, to delve into the Nightmare Court, and show us that things aren’t quite so black and white. That the Nightmare Court aren’t just evil, but a valid alternative philosophy. But the real disappointment comes from how they’ve done exactly the opposite. I think this also explains a lot of the disappointment regarding the idiot-ball plot with Caithe’s storyline. Its not just that Caithe is so willfully ignorant of reality to further the plot, but also that Faolain is so incredibly unrealistically black-hat. There seems no nuance, and it utterly ruins the race in my opinion.

Who’s to say they won’t delve into it later (in, say, HoT)? We’ve only just had the reveal.

Also, I thought the visions of the past gave a really good view of Faolain’s ideology, and how her views (and Cadeyrns) could have planted the seed of Nightmare. It’s far more nuanced than most fantasy villains.

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Posted by: Jaken.6801

Jaken.6801

As a race that was supposed to be the “anti-elves” they turned quickly into the typical: Good Elves and Dark Elves scenario.

One high and mighty for the greater good, the other trying the complete opposite, resulting in a black/white scenario, which in detail might be more prefound, but in the end, we got the old good and bad play again (simply because the nightmare court just des horrible things, perriod.)

Taking the thing with the Sylvari being (purified?) minions of Mordremoth as a beginning, they seemed to have split into two groups, becuase their “leader” was sleeping.
So we got the somehow guided Pale Tree Sylvari and the confused Nightmare Court (though there could be a good social commentary here from the get go. Who is your god, decide for yourself. The NC isn`t neccessary evil, just using the wrong methods), who feel unloved by their mother and are in the rebelling age.

Now papa Mordremoth woke up, wants to reclaim his children and Faolain and the NC finaly sees her purpose and aids him, to protect her brethren (she was shown to be very Sylvari protective).

I really hope it goes beyond that kind of teenage rebell tantrum.

My hopes
I really hope they don`t take too much time on the “who is our ally” part, because i feel there is much better stuff to tap into.

Who cares about the Sylvari. I want the Mursaat. If what we have seen is true and the White Mantle is still working with them, they had 250 years to build an army in another dimension. I know there are still some around, but that could be spies.
I really hope for a White Mantle Army, who comes down as a new force to take down the dragon under Mursaat leadership to “protect” Tyria and attacking every enemy of that course.
First target: Sylvari
Why? Pact shot down. We got no reccources to fight this possible thread and they are a force with no connection to them as they are mostly human based. Perfect for an Crusade.
Which gives a bit more opportunities for us players. Like in Dragon Age with the Paladin and Mages (unintended compairson, though). One wanting to do the right thing and the other ticking time bombs who can aid and can be evil.

But that`s just my hopes.

btw. : A wild Bobby Appears. Quick throw a pokeball or net or something.
Just a question though. As you (and the others) are not really talking to us right now, but (at least in my imagination) looking with glee over the forums seeing us argue about your work (or mess/undecided, depending on who you ask).

Will you all engage more, after the event at PAX? I gather you will reveal a good chunk of information there was well. So it would be nice to get some feedback from you as well (like how you feel about the matter and such. Are our fears unneeded, etc. the usual you know).

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Posted by: Lucky.9421

Lucky.9421

So, in other words the most cited, fanfiction-ish and unfounded theory since beta was supposedly one of anet’s story’s greatest mysteries?

I hope that isn’t something the writers are proud of.

I don’t even really know what to say. Just wow. Lame.

It was foreshadowed in GW1, in 2007. Predating even the announcement of Sylvari as a race.

This story began with a human soldier named Ronan whom, [sic] while separated from his patrol, discovered a cavern filled with strange seed-pods. This cavern was protected by terrible plant creatures, so he fled, clinging to a single seed to show his daughter when he returned home from war. But, upon his arrival, Ronan discovered the Mursaat had destroyed his village and murdered his family, leaving only ruined houses and mass graves. In agony, he planted the seed on their graves and swore never to return to battle.

Terrible plant creatures? In a cavern underground? The seed that would grow into the Pale Tree belonged Mordremoth all along!

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Posted by: Jaken.6801

Jaken.6801

So, in other words the most cited, fanfiction-ish and unfounded theory since beta was supposedly one of anet’s story’s greatest mysteries?

I hope that isn’t something the writers are proud of.

I don’t even really know what to say. Just wow. Lame.

It was foreshadowed in GW1, in 2007. Predating even the announcement of Sylvari as a race.

This story began with a human soldier named Ronan whom, [sic] while separated from his patrol, discovered a cavern filled with strange seed-pods. This cavern was protected by terrible plant creatures, so he fled, clinging to a single seed to show his daughter when he returned home from war. But, upon his arrival, Ronan discovered the Mursaat had destroyed his village and murdered his family, leaving only ruined houses and mass graves. In agony, he planted the seed on their graves and swore never to return to battle.

Terrible plant creatures? In a cavern underground? The seed that would grow into the Pale Tree belonged Mordremoth all along!

So every plant creature in the world is automaticly a mordrem and nothing that could have evolved naturally?
There are several plant creatures in game who do not seem to be Mordrem.

So yeah. it could be “foreshadowing”, but it is most likely a coincidens.

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Posted by: Tachenon.5270

Tachenon.5270

As a race that was supposed to be the “anti-elves” they turned quickly into the typical: Good Elves and Dark Elves scenario.

One high and mighty for the greater good, the other trying the complete opposite, resulting in a black/white scenario, which in detail might be more prefound, but in the end, we got the old good and bad play again (simply because the nightmare court just des horrible things, perriod.)

Nightmare Court, Unseelie Court — seems a likely influence. ‘Dream’ sylvari, then, as the Seelie Court, with Malyck as a Solitary Fairy. Not sure how the Soundless fit in, though, as they don’t ‘troop’, so far as I know. ‘Domesticated’ fairies, perhaps? Yes, I’m looking at the Classification of Fairies article on Wikipedia.

The table is a fable.

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Posted by: Lucky.9421

Lucky.9421

There are several plant creatures in game who do not seem to be Mordrem.

Are they terrible plant creatures? The only plant creatures I can think of are treeants, which are neutral.

That said, I think there is room in the GW universe for plant creatures that are not Mordremoth’s as there are undead that are not Zhatan’s.

Besides I just read a dev say in another thread that “The sylvaris’ origins have been part of their design from the very beginning, since well before we launched the game.”

Even the way the cave is described in Ronan’s story is very similar to the caves we go into in the Silverwastes.

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Posted by: Jaken.6801

Jaken.6801

There are several plant creatures in game who do not seem to be Mordrem.

Are they terrible plant creatures? The only plant creatures I can think of are treeants, which are neutral.

That said, I think there is room in the GW universe for plant creatures that are not Mordremoth’s as there are undead that are not Zhatan’s.

Besides I just read a dev say in another thread that “The sylvaris’ origins have been part of their design from the very beginning, since well before we launched the game.”

Even the way the cave is described in Ronan’s story is very similar to the caves we go into in the Silverwastes.

Well, there is enough “terrible” if you ask me:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Plant

Though none came back so far. At least not in these form.

As for the silverwaste caves. They might be similiar, but Mordremoths growth was just recently. Which is shown by the attack on Prosperity in dry top.

Though his “champion” or mordrem plant could be around much earlier.

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Posted by: ElysianEternity.6215

ElysianEternity.6215

Apparently I’ve done the terrible mistake of being one of the first to comment on this thread and having written something heavily context heavy because nobody seems to to care to read what I wrote later on in addendum to explain.
Prolly should update that. Oh geezus.

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Posted by: Mitha.7039

Mitha.7039

So… what if there are other ‘Pale Tree’s out there that are still under Mordremoth’s control?

Sylvari roleplayers and fangirls: We’re suckers for the underdog…

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Posted by: Jaken.6801

Jaken.6801

So… what if there are other ‘Pale Tree’s out there that are still under Mordremoth’s control?

Has already been implied with the existance of Malyck. A Sylvari who didn`t come from the Pale Tree.

One of the long Mysteries was where it could be.

Ronan said he took it from a cave, with several other Seeds.

So far it is believed, Sylvari took human form, because they were cared for by humans (mostly) and Ventari (who`s tablet they honour).

If we go by the nourishment theory, other PT-Seeds could have sprouted as well, producing all kind of minions , depending what they are nourished with (get them on an elephant boneyard and we get elephant mordrem maybe?).

That being said, Malyck is an anomaly.
It is either that his seed grew up close to humans somewhere as well, giving him and his fellows this form.

However on the other hand it could really nothing connected to nourishment and their form was predertmined.
Ventari and his care had nothing to do with their appearance (though it seems that they have some control over it, given that they can sprout their clothes.)

So far, things are still up in the open. However there are “confirmed” (by one source, Malyck) that there is at least one other PT.

btw. : Why are the seeds gathered in a cave? wouldn`t make more sense to have them spread? It didn`t seem like they were grown there.

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Posted by: Lucky.9421

Lucky.9421

btw. : Why are the seeds gathered in a cave? wouldn`t make more sense to have them spread? It didn`t seem like they were grown there.

Possibly being stored there since Mordremoth was in hibernation?

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Posted by: Erukk.1408

Erukk.1408

Possibly being stored there since Mordremoth was in hibernation?

Why would it need to store, let alone have them heavily guarded, in a cave though? If the Pale Seeds did came from Mordremoth, it could have simply made more and sped up their growth with its plant based magic. This is the same dragon, while half asleep, was able to spread and grow its vines across the entirety of continental Tyria, search out magical hotspots to drain, and spawn enough minions to pose a threat to all nations and the strongest military in Tyria.

It could be argued that they might have been an alarm clock (like the Great Destroyer, Glint, and Drakkar were suppose to be), but the Pale Trees, or at least ours, needed a whole 250 years to mature before they are of any use. Plus, if it already had active minions guarding the cave, why would it need to use such a huge work around in the form of the seeds at all?

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Posted by: Lucky.9421

Lucky.9421

I think the seeds were to become a powerful army of Sylvari. Consider all the player character Sylvari and the feats they are capable of.

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Posted by: Erukk.1408

Erukk.1408

I think the seeds were to become a powerful army of Sylvari. Consider all the player character Sylvari and the feats they are capable of.

The sylvari was only able to accomplish that much with their individual intelligence and their free will. Which will most likely get muffled or suppressed if they are brought into the greater ED hive mind.

Plus, as I said before, Mordremoth was able to grow, while half asleep, a large enough army to threaten all of Tyria in several weeks/months, and it could and will just as easily grow more. What’s the point of spending so much time and resources possibly cultivating the sylvari race when it could literally zerg all of Tyria easily given enough time?

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Posted by: Shinzan.2908

Shinzan.2908

Mass Effect 3’s ending ended up being crap because the original idea got leaked but the head writers wanted something unpredictable and surprising instead… so rather than build upon what was foreshadowed we got a worse ending that came out of nowhere.

The plot being predictable doesn’t make it bad, that just proves it makes sense and works in context. Twists for the sake of having a twist don’t make a good story, neither does changing it each time people figure out what’s coming next.

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Posted by: Jaken.6801

Jaken.6801

Yeah. Sylvari being part of a “plan” is kinda useless.
The EDs are powerfull enough to crush every enemy, if they would focus.

Creating a complete race of sleeper agents is somewhat idiotic.
I mean, so far we have no idea how intelligent Eldar Dragons are supposed to be. Zaithan does not serve as a good example so far.

I also do not believe they are on Shadowrun Eldar Dragon level, because if that was the case it would be game over from the start
Dunkelzahn you are not.

If they come from Mordry, than they are a coincidencial byproduct and nothing planned.
However I do not blame him, using them when they are there (also, they only got influenced in his vacinity, so I still believe it`s just plant-mind control).

Mordremoth : “Oh look, they bring me soldiers with minds, easy to access, why shouldn`t I use them.”

He tapped into Scarlet, when she was studying in that area and into Aerin, who learned about Glints egg to some degree (not that it there, but what the zephirites are) and had both do their bidding.
Scarlet fed him and Aerin cut off a possible thread.

At least that`s something I go by right now.
There is no real other evidence and all we can do is speculate.

We have the place where things happen: West of the Silverwastes.
We have what has/will happen: Some Sylvari going crazy (not all, as there are some staying sane. Either by not being close to the area, or because they are special?)

We know of someone who would embrace Mordremoth, if he shows her the true nature of the Sylvari, because that would be something she could go out and defend and it would be something that would give her purpose: Faloain.
So far, her goal is shrouded in mystery, just saying that the Dream is not her purpose. However she never really told what that was supposed to be.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Yeah. Sylvari being part of a “plan” is kinda useless.
The EDs are powerfull enough to crush every enemy, if they would focus.

Creating a complete race of sleeper agents is somewhat idiotic.
I mean, so far we have no idea how intelligent Eldar Dragons are supposed to be. Zaithan does not serve as a good example so far.

I also do not believe they are on Shadowrun Eldar Dragon level, because if that was the case it would be game over from the start
Dunkelzahn you are not.

If they come from Mordry, than they are a coincidencial byproduct and nothing planned.
However I do not blame him, using them when they are there (also, they only got influenced in his vacinity, so I still believe it`s just plant-mind control).

Mordremoth : “Oh look, they bring me soldiers with minds, easy to access, why shouldn`t I use them.”

He tapped into Scarlet, when she was studying in that area and into Aerin, who learned about Glints egg to some degree (not that it there, but what the zephirites are) and had both do their bidding.
Scarlet fed him and Aerin cut off a possible thread.

At least that`s something I go by right now.
There is no real other evidence and all we can do is speculate.

We have the place where things happen: West of the Silverwastes.
We have what has/will happen: Some Sylvari going crazy (not all, as there are some staying sane. Either by not being close to the area, or because they are special?)

We know of someone who would embrace Mordremoth, if he shows her the true nature of the Sylvari, because that would be something she could go out and defend and it would be something that would give her purpose: Faloain.
So far, her goal is shrouded in mystery, just saying that the Dream is not her purpose. However she never really told what that was supposed to be.

Zhaitan was quite smart, just his minions were handling most of the stuff.

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Posted by: Lucky.9421

Lucky.9421

I do not know if Sylvari of the Pale Tree are sleeper agents. I think they slipped away(partially) from the Dragon’s control when Ronan took the seed away and brought it to Ventari. That was probably not part of the Dragon’s plan.

Now that Mordremoth is awake, it may be trying to re-establish control over them…through dragon mind control or something.

I bet Glint’s egg is important because Glint was able to rebel against her master. It may contain some secret to freedom for the Sylvari.

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Posted by: BobbyStein

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Will you all engage more, after the event at PAX? I gather you will reveal a good chunk of information there was well. So it would be nice to get some feedback from you as well (like how you feel about the matter and such. Are our fears unneeded, etc. the usual you know).

I plan to be a little more active on the forums and in the game after next week. We’re just a bit busy right now.

Are you folks mostly on NA or EU servers?