Guild Wars 2

Dustfinger.9510:

In which case, Spain still wouldn’t get the gold. And neither would random Mexicans and Puerto Ricans. No matter how you slice it, it belongs to those who took the risks to get it back. Not to those who can make some long-past, distant ancestral ties to it.

Be fair, Dust. If Spain could show that they had a legitimate claim to the gold, their claim might be honored. However, they would still have to reimburse the salvage crew for the time, effort, money and manpower spent retrieving the gold. So the real question here is what is Orr worth to Kryta. How much is Jennah willing to pay to get back Orr? Obviously, no random refuge is going to be able to repay the Pact for it’s efforts, the technologies developed to defeat Zhaitan, the expense of building their bases, the lost lives, or the time spent doing all of it. Only a nation could do so.

If Kryta (or the players saying they’re the only ones who should ever be considered for controlling it) is so hellbent on owning Orr, how much is it worth to them? What’s the going price for a new nation? Is Jennah willing to bankrupt Divinity’s Reach to reclaim their “homeland”?

Is she really going to bankrupt Kryta to go to war over it either? She has nobles who aren’t paying her taxes right now. That’s a cash shortage, especially considering this HUGE festival she just threw, converting the tragically destroyed quarter of her city into a giant theme park for the best and the brightest to play warrior hero in. Not only should this probably cause her to lose popularity with the outlying commoners (who were, after all, hit by the invasions harder than the cities, not to mention the resulting flood of adventurers rampaging through their towns and holdings killing everything and leaving the dead bodies to rot in the sun. One can only imagine the smell and the disease that would result from the carnage.), but she’s also going to have to start levying more taxes to pay for the reclamation of, or the war to retake, Orr.

If we’re going to speak of war over Orr, we had best start discussing the logistics of paying for such an endeavor. There’s no abundant mineral wealth in Orr, no established mining operations, no fertile ground waiting to be turned into farmland, and nothing but scholarly sites and ample places for military bases and fortifications to defend the existing lands of Tyria. That’s three things that would appeal to each of the three orders, but not to any nation in the world because of the cost of doing it.

Ironically, the three orders are already there, as the Pact, pretty much taking control of Orr as we speak, apparently. I’m not seeing Kryta as having the resources to make it happen. Jennah has other problems to deal with, as she seems to be attracting psychopathic plant-life, raiders, and rebels, and disloyal nobility.

Dustfinger.9510:

In which case, Spain still wouldn’t get the gold. And neither would random Mexicans and Puerto Ricans. No matter how you slice it, it belongs to those who took the risks to get it back. Not to those who can make some long-past, distant ancestral ties to it.

Again the comparison isn’t accurate. You are trying to compare private group and country to an alliance of races and county. A private group doing the salvage wouldn’t really care about the history of the item except for the value that history gives them vs the country that values the history over the item. With Orr the Pact doesn’t necessarily value the land compared to how the Humans would value it since the main goal of the Pact was to rid Orr of Zhitan.

@Drakkon- You are assuming that the Pact would put a price tag on Orr. The benefits gained from forming the Pact and in turn developing all those new techs is that those techs can be moved out of a wartime position and into a civilian position offering more versatility and more over time value.

Mist.6217:

@Drakkon- You are assuming that the Pact would put a price tag on Orr. The benefits gained from forming the Pact and in turn developing all those new techs is that those techs can be moved out of a wartime position and into a civilian position offering more versatility and more over time value.

If Kryta thinks that they are going to just move in and take over without remuneration, kitten skippy I’m putting a price tag on it. NO group in the world, this one or Tyria, is going to lay out manpower, materials, and lives for free. Never going to happen. Trahearne may be a tree-hugging leaf, but he’s got people under him with expenses, a need to be paid. Reality is that he’s going to have to either foot the bill or get a government to do so. It’s all well and good to save the world from an Undead plague, but when the dust settles, everyone is going to want to be paid back for their contribution. Practicality says that he either takes over administration of Orr, or he “sells” it to Kryta or whatever government is willing to foot the bill themselves.

I would agree that the Pact may put a price tag on Orr. But we do have to wonder what the full backing of the kingdom of Kryta would be worth to the Pact. I mean so far Kryta has given a few soldier here and there, but with the centaurs pushed back into the furthest portions of their lands they can likely give some of their manpower and technology (especially if watchknights become once more viable). And the nation would most definitely be indebted to them.

Narcemus.1348:

I would agree that the Pact may put a price tag on Orr. But we do have to wonder what the full backing of the kingdom of Kryta would be worth to the Pact. I mean so far Kryta has given a few soldier here and there, but with the centaurs pushed back into the furthest portions of their lands they can likely give some of their manpower and technology (especially if watchknights become once more viable). And the nation would most definitely be indebted to them.

Now we’re negotiating. So nice to finally see someone who isn’t being all unrealistically racial. I agree that we rarely consider the financial burden of war (Anyone in the US who isn’t paying attention to world events, take notice), but wars are expensive. The reason that medieval kings would go to war was to force their barons, dukes, and earls to pay them war taxes to get money. War gets them land, land equals more money from the newly acquired lords. Vicious cycle.

At least here on Tyria, we have more noble reasons to go to war, such as fighting legitimate evils. But that still requires money, and that money has to come from somewhere. The Charr are the exception, because they are more of a militaristic command economy. The Tribune says do this, and they do it. If they ever get another Khan-Ur, then they will be a truly formidable force to be reckoned with. His(Her) word would be law to the Charr, and every Legion would jump at his(her) command.

Still, if we assume that Trahearne is going to consider Orr for the humans, then he’s going to need to have some sort of support and/or compensation from them. If they can’t/won’t do that, I don’t see why he would turn it over to them. He isn’t human and he certainly doesn’t care much for the history of the place outside of a scholarly manner. It doesn’t make sense to me to hear people say he’d just hand it over. No one just hands stuff over.

I see two scenarios here. Obviously there are hundreds people could pull out, but in my mind there are two very likely scenarios.

1) Kryta buys the rights to Orr. Obviously most likely not by money (at least not fully by money), but by cementing themselves in an alliance with the Pact. Giving them a debt most likely not to be paid off until ALL of the Elder Dragons are dead. In this scenario, all of Kryta’s army that is not necessary to defend their lands would be used to defend Pact interest, similarly with any human technology which could be useful in the effort. I mean if the engineers can fix the override created by Scarlet, Watchknights would be a very effective fighting force against dragons like Jormag who can control minds, much like asura golems would be.

2) No one is able to purchase the rights to take on the debt to the Pact, so the Pact clears out and the land is just up for settlement. In this scenario, it is similar to a scenario I brought up earlier where IMO the 2 biggest populations would likely be human and sylvari (of the playable races). I could see some asura krewes coming in to study the temples/cathedrals, but I just cannot see the logical reason of large amounts of charr or norn coming down. I think they might exist, but it seems likely that their populations would be much lower than the rest. I understand people like the idea of the charr having naval access to the sea, but it seems like a big stretch of resources and logistics, and we all know that the charr do not trust the use of asura gates, because they aren’t fully under their own control.

Narcemus.1348:

I see two scenarios here. Obviously there are hundreds people could pull out, but in my mind there are two very likely scenarios.

1) Kryta buys the rights to Orr. Obviously most likely not by money (at least not fully by money), but by cementing themselves in an alliance with the Pact. Giving them a debt most likely not to be paid off until ALL of the Elder Dragons are dead. In this scenario, all of Kryta’s army that is not necessary to defend their lands would be used to defend Pact interest, similarly with any human technology which could be useful in the effort. I mean if the engineers can fix the override created by Scarlet, Watchknights would be a very effective fighting force against dragons like Jormag who can control minds, much like asura golems would be.

2) No one is able to purchase the rights to take on the debt to the Pact, so the Pact clears out and the land is just up for settlement. In this scenario, it is similar to a scenario I brought up earlier where IMO the 2 biggest populations would likely be human and sylvari (of the playable races). I could see some asura krewes coming in to study the temples/cathedrals, but I just cannot see the logical reason of large amounts of charr or norn coming down. I think they might exist, but it seems likely that their populations would be much lower than the rest. I understand people like the idea of the charr having naval access to the sea, but it seems like a big stretch of resources and logistics, and we all know that the charr do not trust the use of asura gates, because they aren’t fully under their own control.

that is most likely one of thoes comming or the pact decides to make a nation there for themself tho its unlikely but it would be a way for them to pay there troops

Drakkon.4782:

If Kryta thinks that they are going to just move in and take over without remuneration, kitten skippy I’m putting a price tag on it. NO group in the world, this one or Tyria, is going to lay out manpower, materials, and lives for free. Never going to happen. Trahearne may be a tree-hugging leaf, but he’s got people under him with expenses, a need to be paid. Reality is that he’s going to have to either foot the bill or get a government to do so. It’s all well and good to save the world from an Undead plague, but when the dust settles, everyone is going to want to be paid back for their contribution. Practicality says that he either takes over administration of Orr, or he “sells” it to Kryta or whatever government is willing to foot the bill themselves.

Unless I have missed some bit of lore on the subject nothing says Kryta wants it for free, for that matter actually wants it with the current political issues the Queen has as well as the on going fighting they are dealing with. If Trahearne decides to have the Pact formally turn over Orr to Kryta that would be his choice, likely a very controversial and possibly damage the Pact’s cohesiveness. If he puts it to a vote between the Orders or even asks them plus a rep from each race for input (best solution in my opinion) and they all decide to give it back to Humans but at a cost or with certain stipulations again their choice.

Not to be rude but just because you feel it should come with a cost (monetary) doesn’t mean that is what the ‘cost’ will be. There is no telling in what Anet will decide to do with Orr or if they will even make it livable again within so many years, who knows maybe GW3 will have Orr inhabitable.

Mist.6217:

The only way to make said comparison equal would be to state that the Dragon salvaged it from the ocean floor,

Mist.6217:

Again the comparison isn’t accurate.

O.o

Okay, my personal opinion the situation would be kitten.

Chernobyl happens, bad stuff, must be evacuated. And for this situation we’re gonna say it took a large part of Soviet Russia (things are being somewhat edited to make it a more equivalent comparison). A few years later, with the land still uninhabitable, a coalition of french, english, and swedish scientists are able to come up with a way to cleanse the land. They then claim the land as Frengswiland and do not give it to Russia, because Soviet Russia has now fallen apart, and is not necessarily the nation that holds any claim over it anymore. Weird comparison. Very weird, and I honestly don’t even know if it holds any relevance anymore anyways, lol.

Dustfinger.9510:

It’s my impression that most everyone not in favor of giving all this newly reclaimed land to humanity only, is in favor of everybody sharing it because everybody helped get it. While playable humanity still retains the land that they have. That doesn’t seem to demonstrate any animosity toward humanity. In fact, it seems fair across the board.

The ones in favor of giving it to humanity seem to be looking for a hand out, as far as I can tell. “You do the work and then give it to us”. Doesn’t seem practical or reasonable at all.

Humanity keeps kryta. The human nation isn’t losing out on any land since they never owned it. I don’t see how it is viewed as “a human nation losing land when no one else will”.

The only people saying that are the straw man factories.
Look, Orr is literally a salted infertile land. Even without taking into account the cleansing of the Dragon’s corruption it would still take decades to cultivate any self-sustaining society. The logic that prevails is that who would under those circumstances be most likely to go? Sylvari cleansing the land and Humans going there to liberate and rebuild the temples. They are the only ones with any logical reasons to even go there before it is cleansed outside of Pact individuals and independent adventurers and businessmen. This isn’t some “hurr durr da hoomans taek errythang” argument that you strawman factories keep trying to create. It’s just a logical progression of what the population would likely look like.

Narcemus.1348:

I see two scenarios here. Obviously there are hundreds people could pull out, but in my mind there are two very likely scenarios.

1) Kryta buys the rights to Orr. Obviously most likely not by money (at least not fully by money), but by cementing themselves in an alliance with the Pact. Giving them a debt most likely not to be paid off until ALL of the Elder Dragons are dead. In this scenario, all of Kryta’s army that is not necessary to defend their lands would be used to defend Pact interest, similarly with any human technology which could be useful in the effort. I mean if the engineers can fix the override created by Scarlet, Watchknights would be a very effective fighting force against dragons like Jormag who can control minds, much like asura golems would be.

2) No one is able to purchase the rights to take on the debt to the Pact, so the Pact clears out and the land is just up for settlement. In this scenario, it is similar to a scenario I brought up earlier where IMO the 2 biggest populations would likely be human and sylvari (of the playable races). I could see some asura krewes coming in to study the temples/cathedrals, but I just cannot see the logical reason of large amounts of charr or norn coming down. I think they might exist, but it seems likely that their populations would be much lower than the rest. I understand people like the idea of the charr having naval access to the sea, but it seems like a big stretch of resources and logistics, and we all know that the charr do not trust the use of asura gates, because they aren’t fully under their own control.

Number 2 is exactly what I think is the most logical and likely to happen.

Narcemus.1348:

Okay, my personal opinion the situation would be kitten.

Chernobyl happens, bad stuff, must be evacuated. And for this situation we’re gonna say it took a large part of Soviet Russia (things are being somewhat edited to make it a more equivalent comparison). A few years later, with the land still uninhabitable, a coalition of french, english, and swedish scientists are able to come up with a way to cleanse the land. They then claim the land as Frengswiland and do not give it to Russia, because Soviet Russia has now fallen apart, and is not necessarily the nation that holds any claim over it anymore. Weird comparison. Very weird, and I honestly don’t even know if it holds any relevance anymore anyways, lol.

then the question is who payed the scientists to clean the land from radioaktive material?
if that is not the current owners of the land then they actourly dont have a right to cleanse it, but now if we take any ownership off the land(makeing it a free zone) outside any contrues borders, then the once cleansing it has the right for it and in your chase its the scientists unless orders by the nations they live in and is working for them, it could also be a company doing it.

make that to our chase chenouble is orr the radioaktive material is the elder dragon and the scientists are the pact.
Ukraine is the distant reletive of ussr and the closest to it(given its within there borders currently and in therefor they own it but lets not look at that as it ruins the example as all land on earth is under some country’s jurisdiction in some way) but they would not have a claim to it in any way shape or form(if we move it outside there borders ofc and makeing it a free zone like orr is)

Lostwingman.5034:

The only people saying that are the straw man factories.
Look, Orr is literally a salted infertile land. Even without taking into account the cleansing of the Dragon’s corruption it would still take decades to cultivate any self-sustaining society. The logic that prevails is that who would under those circumstances be most likely to go? Sylvari cleansing the land and Humans going there to liberate and rebuild the temples. They are the only ones with any logical reasons to even go there before it is cleansed outside of Pact individuals and independent adventurers and businessmen. This isn’t some “hurr durr da hoomans taek errythang” argument that you strawman factories keep trying to create. It’s just a logical progression of what the population would likely look like.

That same logical progression has already been addressed. GG.

Dustfinger.9510:

Mist.6217:

The only way to make said comparison equal would be to state that the Dragon salvaged it from the ocean floor,

Mist.6217:

Again the comparison isn’t accurate.

O.o

Your stated comparison is NOT accurate to the situation at hand. The phrase “only way to make it accurate” is the ONLY way to make your salvage claim remotely comparable. But then your comparison goes from private group and country to dragon, Pact, race wanting Orr so even then it isn’t accurate.

Mist.6217:

Your stated comparison is NOT accurate to the situation at hand. The phrase “only way to make it accurate” is the ONLY way to make your salvage claim remotely comparable. But then your comparison goes from private group and country to dragon, Pact, race wanting Orr so even then it isn’t accurate.

You stated the parameters to make the comparison equal. I went with those parameters to make my point and you descided that they weren’t comparable any more. keep moving the goal post.

Dustfinger.9510:

Mist.6217:

Your stated comparison is NOT accurate to the situation at hand. The phrase “only way to make it accurate” is the ONLY way to make your salvage claim remotely comparable. But then your comparison goes from private group and country to dragon, Pact, race wanting Orr so even then it isn’t accurate.

You stated the parameters to make the comparison equal. I went with those parameters to make my point and you descided that they weren’t comparable any more. keep moving the goal post.

The goal post never moved. I stated the only way to make it equal still doesn’t make it fully equal due to going from two groups with a ‘claim’ to three groups with a ‘claim’. Keep avoiding the flaw in your point and I will gladly keep pointing it out for you.

Mist.6217:

The goal post never moved. I stated the only way to make it equal still doesn’t make it fully equal due to going from two groups with a ‘claim’ to three groups with a ‘claim’. Keep avoiding the flaw in your point and I will gladly keep pointing it out for you.

Here is what you actually said: " The only way to make said comparison equal would be to state that the Dragon salvaged it from the ocean floor, which it did, and the Pact was reclaiming/rescuing/conquering/whatever term you want from the Dragon." Nothing about not making it fully equal. Cleary trying to move the goal post.

Since you seem to only want to nitpick my post I will bow out since this isn’t a constructive conversation anymore. Clearly you didn’t want to find a more accurate comparison so you chose to nitpick.

Clearly words don’t mean what you think they mean. I went with the parameters you set. Then You descided it wasn’t good enough. me pointing that out isn’t nit picking. It is pointing out how your written communication contradicts itself. if you didn’t mean what you actually wrote, then stop trying to defend it and stop lieing about what you actually said. because I can only go by what you actually said.

could this not work then?

the bad guys salvage the gold then a independint groupe of people takes it from the bad guys.
in my opinion that lives them with 4 options.
1)give it back to spain/mexico/puerto rico
2) sell it to spain/mexico/puerto rico
3) sell it to highest bidder.
4) take it for them self

lets try make the bad guys zhitan and hes army
the independent groupe is orders under leadership of the pact
the gold is orr
spain/mexico/puerto rico is kryta

to me that looks like a very good comparison.

option 1 is only possible if the pact has unlimited gold to pay soldiers with and buy food/weapons/service’s with else the pact will have a army thats angry on the pact leaders + the human nations and that will lead to a war humans+pact leaders cant win.

option 2 is only possible if the pact agree on a payment other then only gold as kryta dont have the gold for it.

option 3 is possible but will break down the peace between humans and the race buying it leading to war and the pact dont want that.

option 4 is possible with the options of anyone to visit the temples and shrines and the pact then also agrees on restoring the temples and shrines with maintains to else the pact will have humans after them

i will push for option 4 or option 2 with the most likely one being option 4. with the vigil as the peace troop of the nation and each other order also getting a thing in there if they want like priory would fit a resource department and the order of whispers is a inteligence network so ofc they can fit that to in the new nation
ofc each order has the right to refuse the offer of doing it under the baner of the new nation if they want to.
__________________________________________________________________

had the independint groupe been hired by spain/mexico/puerto rico then the gold should go to them as per agreement.

Dustfinger.9510:

Clearly words don’t mean what you think they mean. I went with the parameters you set. Then You descided it wasn’t good enough. me pointing that out isn’t nit picking. It is pointing out how your written communication contradicts itself. if you didn’t mean what you actually wrote, then stop trying to defend it and stop lieing about what you actually said. because I can only go by what you actually said.

Okay just for you I will clarify my position on your comparison. It is bad because the only way to make it even close would be to claim Zhitan salvaged, i.e ‘private party’, then the Pact took it, i.e. ‘third party’, and a possibly Kryta would want to claim it as another Human nation but the Pact will decide what is done with it. However your comparison is only with two parties, salvage group and group that wants the item, i.e a country. Since the only way to make your comparison viable would be to introduce a third party that didn’t want the item but wanted to get rid of the ‘salvage team’ because the team was killing thousands of people the comparison still fails.

Now I will apologize for not clearly stating my position earlier and accept that it did leave too much room for clarification on the matter. A slightly better, but not by much, would be allies retaking countries during WW2 or during this latest wars in the Middle East. However the issue with them in comparison is that the countries still existed but had the governments in exile vs Orr which was destroyed with the only survivors having not been there at the time.

I can accept that. Though, I think the fact that Orr no longer exists as a nation only strengthens my position that distant cultural ties mean very little when it comes to “rights”.

I can agree with that unless someone could prove without any doubt, which would be very hard, that they and their family were of Orrian decent. While I do think Orr, once inhabitable again, should be given to Humans on the simple fact that it is without a doubt their origin on Tyria. I also feel it should be done in a way to satisfy all parties involved, which include all three Orders and all five races.

On a note of earlier conversations in this thread, why would the asura try to kill the human gods. Even they acknowledge the human gods are likely bigger gears/cogs in the Eternal Alchemy.

It would seem more likely they would try to ask the Gods to help participate in a series of experiments to determine their nature and understand the Eternal Alchemy. I can sort of see it now…

“So… Baalthazar, is that right?”
“Correct, little one.”
“What’s it like being a god?”
“Uhh… Godly?”

Narcemus.1348:

I understand people like the idea of the charr having naval access to the sea, but it seems like a big stretch of resources and logistics, and we all know that the charr do not trust the use of asura gates, because they aren’t fully under their own control.

Looks like you don’t understand thing about military bases. If you are planning to be world force to be reckoned with, and you have a chance to establish one in really important place (aka strategical base), you will do this even with high upkeep cost, because you will lost alot more if you not go for it. Strategical interests is a big thing.

Narcemus.1348:

I see two scenarios here. Obviously there are hundreds people could pull out, but in my mind there are two very likely scenarios.

1) Kryta buys the rights to Orr. Obviously most likely not by money (at least not fully by money), but by cementing themselves in an alliance with the Pact. Giving them a debt most likely not to be paid off until ALL of the Elder Dragons are dead. In this scenario, all of Kryta’s army that is not necessary to defend their lands would be used to defend Pact interest, similarly with any human technology which could be useful in the effort. I mean if the engineers can fix the override created by Scarlet, Watchknights would be a very effective fighting force against dragons like Jormag who can control minds, much like asura golems would be.

2) No one is able to purchase the rights to take on the debt to the Pact, so the Pact clears out and the land is just up for settlement. In this scenario, it is similar to a scenario I brought up earlier where IMO the 2 biggest populations would likely be human and sylvari (of the playable races). I could see some asura krewes coming in to study the temples/cathedrals, but I just cannot see the logical reason of large amounts of charr or norn coming down. I think they might exist, but it seems likely that their populations would be much lower than the rest. I understand people like the idea of the charr having naval access to the sea, but it seems like a big stretch of resources and logistics, and we all know that the charr do not trust the use of asura gates, because they aren’t fully under their own control.

This is pretty much my thoughts as well.

The second option, we’ve pretty much discussed in the last page, except I don’t think the Pact would be irresponsible enough to just clear out and leave the place to whoever grabs it first. A caretaker administration until the settlers make their own arrangements for government (or the Order of Whispers makes one for them) is more likely.

On the first: I don’t think the Pact would be so crude as to put an explicit price tag on Orr. If they were to give it to Kryta, however, there would certainly be expectations that came with it, although those expectations, again, might not be spoken aloud.

The thing is, when you get down to it, while not officially a member, Jennah is one of the Pact’s staunchest supporters (along with the Captain’s Council, the Pale Tree, and the Imperators). She declared that uniting to fight the dragons was a priority back before the Vigil had even formed, she sent one of her two most potent agents (more, if you count the PC(s)) that we know of to aid in the fighting against the dragons, and the number of (ex-) Seraph we see in the Pact, particularly the Vigil, shows that at the very least she’s turning a blind eye to such volunteering. We also don’t know what other support she may have given to the Pact or the individual orders before the Pact’s formation (for instance, who granted Vigil Keep to the Vigil? Given its location, it could have belonged either to Kryta or to Lion’s Arch).

If you want more tangible reasons beyond simply being nice to an ally, here’s the reasoning:

First, by passing off Orr to a friendly formal government, the Pact can divulge itself of the responsibility of holding down the territory itself and focus on other things. This will probably be a gradual thing – chances are whatever government forms in Orr will still rely on the Pact for military power until it gets its own forces together, and the Pact will almost certainly keep a strong presence in Orr regardless – but it divulges the Pact of the nitty gritty of running a nation the size of the Orrian island/peninsular while still being able to use Orr as a base of operations. Essentially, they get the benefit of a port, local food production (once the land recovers enough), use of the infrastructure of what will probably eventually become a major city-state, and somebody else to take care of the day-to-day administration and keeping order so the Pact can concentrate on its own priorities. Of course, that all applies pretty much whatever government is set in place, as long as it’s one the Pact is confident will stay friendly.

The second thing the Pact would get from bestowing Orr on Kryta, or (to a lesser extent) humanity in general, is that it helps ensure that Kryta stays an ally. Now, in Jennah’s mind, the question of Orr probably falls well below the centaur war, bandit control, the charr treaty, and fighting the dragons in her list of priorities, so she’s not going to break alliance based on what happens in Orr. However, even setting aside the possibility that Jennah’s heir inherits before the question comes up, if we assume the decision is made while Kryta’s political system is in roughly the state it is now, what happens with Orr could have major ramifications on the strength of Jennah’s rule.

To put it bluntly, the more the final arrangement regarding Orr favours Kryta, or humanity and human interests in general, the stronger Jennah’s position becomes. If the Pact rules in favour of returning Arah to humanity, then this creates a clear justification for the truces and alliances Jennah has made that have lead to this,, and gives Jennah the prestige and recognition of being the queen who presided over the reclamation of the City of the Gods.

By contrast, if the Pact rules in disfavour of human interests… then Jennah will probably try to continue supporting it anyway, but the Pact would have handed a huge stockpile of ammunition to her political opponents. Accusations would fly of Jennah selling out human interests and abandoning sacred ground to infidel, allying with factions that at best don’t care about humans and at worst are racial enemies, and even being a traitor to humanity. Said political opponents may not even care about Orr themselves, but there will be enough of Kryta’s population that does that they could use a disfavourable resolution to weaken Jennah’s support, especially among the more religious sections of Kryta’s populace.

So, basically, what they get from a human-friendly resolution to the Orr question is a strengthening of the alliance with Kryta, while a human-unfriendly resolution risks provoking a crisis in Kryta that leads to Jennah’s replacement with someone less friendly to the Pact.

And this is exactly the sort of thing the Order of Whispers are experts at.

but then agien giving it to humanity in any way would set the charr invulment in question from them so it goes both ways atleast if the charr is not given anything for it.

thats why it will be sold to humanity and most likely kryta in general or keept under pact control.
but a price can be in many different things then pure gold as all knows that kryta cant pay that in any way, so if they pay some other things like trade rights for a given time, blueprints to human tech, small land to the pact, offering of soldiers to the pact that can be spared or something we dont know about right now but it will get a price in some way

My question is how could the Pact give it to humanity and make sure that only humanity gets it? Unless a-net goes the route of a surviving eligible successor to the throne, but the Queen isn’t that successor, because A-net already said Jenna’s ancestors forfeited their rights when they left.

Just handing it to kryta for no more reason than that she’s a human ruler would create more problems that have already been stated. Every human has some kind of connection. Who would the Pact be handing it to?

Funny thing about the whole “successor” issue is that, wasn’t it expressly stated Vizer Kuhbolan (or however you spell his name, he was The Lich) was the ONLY survivor of Orr? And for all the faffing about we did in Prophecies, we still most definitely fixed that “survivor of Orr” part.

So we know that there were survivors. Just none that we know of who were successors to the throne. So my question is ‘who would the pact actually be handing the new nation to’ in order to give it to humanity?

edit: The same interview that confirms Orrian survivors also confirms that Queen Jenna’s ancestors forfeited their claims well before those survivors were ever born. So who gest the land? All humans have some connection. How does the Pact decide? (Assuming an actual successor to the throne didn’t make it)

Gandarel.5091:

Jennah is currently the Queen of Kryta and the Regent of Ascalon, which means she is just a ‘gapfiller’, same could be done with Orr – she becomes the regent, (being the descendant of Doric), until an Orrian descendant shows up.

But Jennah would be an arbitrary gap filler. With no greater right than Joe Smoe the farmer, or “Random Krytan noble”. Why her? Her ancestors specifically forfeited all claims to the throne so she has no more right then anyone else. As far as ruling Orr, she is equal with every one else who was born a human being.

No one decides anything is how they solve it.
Continue treating it as a military/occupation process of cleansing and law and order and let whoever wants to move there to settle and work do so.
Then down the line when the corruption is largely dealt with and the large united presence of the Pact isn’t necessary there you let the new population determine how they will be run, you could just as likely have several micro-states as you could one monolithic new “Orr”.
No existing governments on Tyria should really have dominion over it although I’d expect a human government established at least over Arah. You might also have a Corsair/Merchant city-state similar to Lion’s Arch on one of the coasts on the South East portion of Orr. The rest will likely be many small self-governing Towns and Villages, there might be a shared military organization amongst them or possibly two centered around whoever caretakes Arah and the other large merchant settlement bound to arise. Just guesses though.

That ^ would be how I lean. Let it happen naturally. If humans care that much for their heritage, it will be demonstrated by natural occurance. If they don’t care, then why force it?

Dustfinger.9510:

Gandarel.5091:

Jennah is currently the Queen of Kryta and the Regent of Ascalon, which means she is just a ‘gapfiller’, same could be done with Orr – she becomes the regent, (being the descendant of Doric), until an Orrian descendant shows up.

But Jennah would be an arbitrary gap filler. With no greater right than Joe Smoe the farmer, or “Random Krytan noble”. Why her? Her ancestors specifically forfeited all claims to the throne so she has no more right then anyone else. As far as ruling Orr, she is equal with every one else who was born a human being.

Why her? Because her grand grand grand (and so on) father was king Doric – ruler of Orr, Ascalon and Kryta.

If you die with no kids, who will get your car, the mailman or a distant relative?

Gandarel.5091:

Why her? Because her grand grand grand (and so on) father was king Doric – ruler of Orr, Ascalon and Kryta.

If you die with no kids, who will get your car, the mailman or a distant relative?

If my distant relatives ancestors had predetermined that their line has no rights to your car, it may well be the mailman. Jennahs great great great great great great ….etc grandfather has no bearing. Because Jennah is the product of one okitteng Doric’s descendants who forfeited those rights.

I’m waiting to see any papers with the sign of an Orrian king saying that ‘no descendants of Doric shall ever take over if our kingdom gets wiped by something like a cataclysm’. :P

Then why is Jennah the regent of Ascalon?

We don’t need papers. We have ‘word of god’ straight from dev interview. Ascalon may well have details that change the situation, we don’t know. But it also doesn’t matter.

edit: In fact I can come up with a likely reason right now. Jennahs ancestors probably didn’t chose to forfeit their right to ascalon. But know for a fact that their ancestors chose to forfeit the rights to Orr.

edit 2: Not trying to be snarky. Just stating lore unemotionally and extrapolating with a scientific unbias outlook but that can come off as snarky, ………. or so I keep hearing :P

Orr throne don’t need any real heritage, orrian descendants, etc. You can just create new state (“we return and resettle ancient human land bla-bla-bla”), give them puppet government, give throne to “New Orrian dynasty” (King Logan, eh?), and after that just absorb new dynasty into Kryta royal line trough marriage. Bam, Kryta kings now rightful rulers of Kryta and Orr. Other races don’t care about human monarchical customs, so it will be enough.
Main problem is – how you can persuade other races to give Orr for human settlement AND (main thing) allow such settlement become new human (not interracial, because of new human royal line on the throne) state.

I think you’re reading a bit too much into Mazdak’s abdication. From what was said, it seems it’s more of a de facto abdication through setting himself up as the king of an independent nation (effectively saying that his new nation is more important to him than Orr) rather then he and his entire line being divested of any claim to the throne whatsoever. Basically, he’d have made himself persona non grata and been put so far back in the succession that under normal circumstances nobody would ever expect him or his descendants to succeed the throne… but under circumstances where the Orrian line has been wiped out, then it’s basically Jennah, Samuelsson (and a similar statement can probably be made about the Ascalonian line) and the mysterious heir that the Order of Whispers talks about sometimes, who I have my suspicions about. Regardless of what their ancestors in between had done, they’re all descendants of Doric and, like descendants of the Khan-Ur among the legions (something else they have in common…), therefor infinitely closer to succession than anyone who isn’t.

This is also leaving aside the point that even if Mazdak was officially disinherited, over the centuries since it’s likely that some royal marriages between the lines have occurred, giving members of the line a renewed claim.

(Incidentally, on Khilbron being the sole survivor – Khilbron was believed to be the sole survivor of the Cataclysm. Orrians who were elsewhere at the time were not caught in the blast)

Even leaving questions of genealogy, though, there are two other reasons why, if Orr is explicitly given back to humanity rather than that being another de facto development through settlement, it would probably be Jennah (or her successor) who administrates it, at least to begin with as a regency. The first is that Jennah is the leader of the biggest human nation on Tyria, and even with Kryta’s troubles that means she has more institutions and resources available to administer a province than Joe Smoe the farmer, or even a random Krytan noble. Secondly, as outlined above, Jennah is friendly to the Pact, and I think one thing we can all agree on is that if the Pact explicitly gives it to anyone, it’s going to be someone they approve of, and that they know (or at least strongly believe) approves of them.

EDIT: @Rednik: Besides what I’ve said previously about setting a precedent that would be favourable to them if and when their own homelands get recovered (in the case of asura and norn), most of the races fundamentally don’t care. As long as they have the right to live there as equals and the government treats them with respect, a typical norn, sylvari, or asura probably doesn’t give two hoots what the political system is.

The only potential sticking point would be the charr, and with the potential exception of Bangar Ruinbringer, the charr are now as serious about seeking peace as humans are (and Sea of Sorrows shows this isn’t the first time). Supporting a human claim to Orr on the basis of prior claims legitimises their own prior claim to Ascalon, and generally serves as a concession that doesn’t cost them much, but which might make it easier for humans to swallow permanently relinquishing most of Ascalon.

No no. You misunderstand me. I’m not saying his entire line has no possibility. What I’m saying is that his line has no more possibility due to blood, than any other human being. That special privelge was severed. http://www.guildmag.com/magazine/issue9/interview.htm

if we look at the actual answer, Ree sais that though he has a bloodline to it, he completely left the claim to it. So that is pretty clear that his blood gives no special priveleges.

On the topic of the pact just handing it to her due to her resources, we also have anets
response to that:

“they might want it, but the idea – they aren’t in an expansionistic mode”

“they’re basically “fall back, fall back” and basically they’re still stabilizing, fighting amongst themselves to a great degree.”

“with the revolution of the story we have a still very state of unrest.”

So we see here Queen Jenna just doesn’t have those resources. And krytan rulership may bring more problems than a new settlement can handle. And we see that the distance will still be a problem:

“But I think that the distance between the two thrones is going to be too disparate for her to just step up and say ‘I own that.’”

“basically this is a long, long-distant claim operation that it’ll just create havoc.”

“And I think the distance is a key factor in that”

The best bet would be for a krytan noble to uproot from kryta and bring all his wealth to fund a new nation. Or even a group of likeminded Joe Some settlers who strike out on their own to create homesteads, the way that happened in the Americas.

There is one thing that was kinda forgotten amongst all this, regarding the question of what can humanity/Kryta/Jennah give to the charr legions in exchange for peace in Orr. The ghosts of Ascalon.

As long as there is a direct successor to Doric, and Magdear or Sohothin still exists, as legend says, there is a chance to undo the Foefire. Last we saw, Eir was about to reforge Magdear. Sohothin is still in the hands of Rythlock, who since is friends with Logan again. The human PS has a part where the Whispers agent mentions that Jennah may not even be the last Doric descendant.

So basicly, Jennah or her descendant (if there ever will be any, if not then the other Doric descendant) could make this offer. Relieve the Iron Legion homelands of yet another front, the ghosts, and the Legions would let go of any perceived or actual claim to Orr when it is in a state of being habitable again. Rebuilding Ascalon City might be an extra, probably making it a middle neutral ground between human and charr.

Once the political background is all fixed, the sylvari could be of great help. Many humans seem to accept the plant folk, especially trusting them for helping the crops to grow, or even unlikely position like undertaking, cleaning, purifying.

Logistics could be solved as it was between DR and Ebonhawke, requisitioning an asura gate. If they could do it with the constantly sieged Ebonhawke, they can do it again with a half-way cleared Orr.

(eyes the wording in the transcript)

(goes back to the original recording)

Huh. That’s worrying. It may actually be mistranscripted – I’m not 100% certain, but there might have been a ’don’t’ before the word ‘want’. At about 11:50 in the recording. Either way, the very next line is “and he certainly has a bloodline to it”, suggesting that whatever happened back then, the fact that he, and therefor his line, are descendants okitteng Doric is still relevant. Might have to get a few other opinions and change the transcript (it’s not the only error in there, but I think it’s the only one that can substantially change the interpretation).

Either way, I understand what you’re saying just fine, and I think you’re misinterpreting what Ree intended. Regardless of the presence of that ’don’t’, I’m pretty certain that what Ree was trying to say is that while the Krytan line is still the line okitteng Doric, Mazdak’s abandonment of Orr and the sheer distance between Kryta and Orr weakens her claim… but she is still a descendent okitteng Doric, and that hasn’t changed. In a culture that still believes in divine right to rule, Jennah’s ancestry is still significant, and between someone who’s a descendant of Doric and someone who isn’t, the descendant of Doric is going to win every time regardless of legal wrangling over whether their ancestor gave up the claim or not.

In terms of resources – Kryta doesn’t have the military resources now. However, Orr also isn’t even close to being habitable by civilians now, either, and there’s a lot of indications that, short of another spanner being thrown in the works, Kryta’s star might be back on the rise. The centaurs have been weakened, and the centaur in Lion’s Arch is there because he’s convinced that if the charr-human treaty holds and turns into an alliance, the centaurs are toast. The internal problems are more, well, problematic, but that’s somewhere where a prestigious excursion elsewhere might actually help.

However, the resources I was referring to were not military ones. Likely, any burgeoning nation in Orr is, at least to start off with, still going to rely on the Pact for protection until it gets its feet on the ground. If it’s sponsored by Kryta, even a Kryta that has spare military capacity might still ask for allies – the Pact, the sylvari wardens, maybe even the Legions – for assistance in maintaining security.

What Jennah has that the Pact, being an NGO, doesn’t are the institutions and apparatus of government. She has people who are actually experienced in running a country. The Pact doesn’t have that – they have soldiers, spies, manipulators and scholars, but not a lot in the way of experienced administrators. An agreement with Jennah would give them those administrators, while giving Jennah a political victory that will help keep her in power and ensure that Kryta’s foreign policy continues to follow a course that the Pact approves of.

Of course, all this assumes that the Pact explicitly decides to restore Orr as a human kingdom with a royal family, and the Order of Whispers doesn’t have their own heir to Orr squirreled away. If they don’t, then the colonisation by Joe Smoes and wealthy investors is still a valid possibility. Mind you, since you brought up the Americas, I would point out that the colonists were still nominally subjects of the country they came from, until the War of Independence in the case of the colonies that later became the US. And that war came about because the colonists were outraged by not having representation in the British Parliament – in a world where sending representatives to Divinity’s Reach only requires popping through an asura gate, that’s considerably less likely to become an issue. Furthermore, any colonists coming from Kryta to Orr are likely to be vetted by the Order of Whispers, and they’re going to prefer colonists that are loyal to Jennah over Caudecus.

So, regardless of the legalities, it may actually end up with Jennah being the nominal head of state either way. Mind you, as shown with modern Commonwealth nations, there’s a big gap between being the nominal head of state, and having actual executive power.

Kryta, Jennah, orrians… But why not LA?
What is LA emissary will come to Pact and say “we will give you money, transport, resources – anything. And you will give us… yes, Orr. Yes, we will continue to cleanse it. Yes, we will keep order, grant colonization rights to everyone who want to come, grant protection of human temples/shrines/etc from any marauders and let temples to be rebuild, bla-bla-bla. We will create New Orr, we need citizens and everyone is welcome here as long as they are abiding state laws”

Rednik.3809:

Kryta, Jennah, orrians… But why not LA?
What is LA emissary will come to Pact and say “we will give you money, transport, resources – anything. And you will give us… yes, Orr. Yes, we will continue to cleanse it. Yes, we will keep order, grant colonization rights to everyone who want to come, grant protection of human temples/shrines/etc from any marauders and let temples to be rebuild, bla-bla-bla. We will create New Orr, we need citizens and everyone is welcome here as long as they are abiding state laws”

Why not LA? Seems legit. As businesspeople primarily, they are in the best position to administrate a successful new territory. Orr doesn’t need a new king/queen or royalty. They need people who can set up a functional government that can efficiently bring the land back to usability and sustainability. LA has shown they can do that. Certainly better than Kryta would be able to in any case. And they have the navy in place to get there. The Lionsguard already protect most of that area to boot. It wouldn’t take much for them to step in and assume defensive and admininstrative roles in Orr.

Rednik.3809:

Kryta, Jennah, orrians… But why not LA?
What is LA emissary will come to Pact and say “we will give you money, transport, resources – anything. And you will give us… yes, Orr. Yes, we will continue to cleanse it. Yes, we will keep order, grant colonization rights to everyone who want to come, grant protection of human temples/shrines/etc from any marauders and let temples to be rebuild, bla-bla-bla. We will create New Orr, we need citizens and everyone is welcome here as long as they are abiding state laws”

That’s a lot of resources to dedicate to something they could just as easily let someone else do and then just set up shop all over the place to establish their claims.
Businessmen are not in the trade of investing a whole ton more than they need to.
Keep in mind administering and managing territory is an expensive and (in the case of Orr) risky venture. I find that idea very very low on the list of possibilities.

Lostwingman.5034:

Rednik.3809:

Kryta, Jennah, orrians… But why not LA?
What is LA emissary will come to Pact and say “we will give you money, transport, resources – anything. And you will give us… yes, Orr. Yes, we will continue to cleanse it. Yes, we will keep order, grant colonization rights to everyone who want to come, grant protection of human temples/shrines/etc from any marauders and let temples to be rebuild, bla-bla-bla. We will create New Orr, we need citizens and everyone is welcome here as long as they are abiding state laws”

That’s a lot of resources to dedicate to something they could just as easily let someone else do and then just set up shop all over the place to establish their claims.
Businessmen are not in the trade of investing a whole ton more than they need to.
Keep in mind administering and managing territory is an expensive and (in the case of Orr) risky venture. I find that idea very very low on the list of possibilities.

any businessman will invest huge amount of capital into something if he belives that he can make hes capital increase more there then anywhere else and thats how simple it is.
a diffrent example could be that you know that something is worth 2silver now on the tp but you belive that the same item is going to be 10+ silver soon because of something would you buy the 2 silver item?

and saying that charr will agree on letting humans get it because the humans then can remove the foefire is strange when charr have almost contained the ghosts from the foefire now so by the time orr is inhabbitable they eighter would not care about the human ghost as they are dealt with in a diffrent way or they have so little importense that they cant be used as a bargin for charr to step back

Korsbaek.9803:

any businessman will invest huge amount of capital into something if he belives that he can make hes capital increase more there then anywhere else and thats how simple it is.

Except not when he can much more easily allow someone else to do it and then establish their own systems on top?
It’s not like LA was established with the idea of creating a state in mind, it was simply a lawless harbor that was nicely geographically placed. Businesses aren’t in the business of nation building, they’ll let others do that for them and then sweep in afterwards. Plus, it’s just as profitable but much less costly to latch on try to monopolize trade than it is to have to build everything from the ground up.

Korsbaek.9803:

a diffrent example could be that you know that something is worth 2silver now on the tp but you belive that the same item is going to be 10+ silver soon because of something would you buy the 2 silver item?

Terrible example. You’re treating building a nation like buying and trading stocks.
You are completely missing that there is a huge initial investment that must be paid. That they must then commit huge resources to managing, maintaining, and securing those areas. That they must from there then make their monopoly ruled state appeal to settlers they can milk. Rather than letting someone else do all the heavy lifting and then come in and milk the profits of business. You are literally asking them to cut massively into their dividends so they “officially” own territory.

Korsbaek.9803:

and saying that charr will agree on letting humans get it because the humans then can remove the foefire is strange when charr have almost contained the ghosts from the foefire now so by the time orr is inhabbitable they eighter would not care about the human ghost as they are dealt with in a diffrent way or they have so little importense that they cant be used as a bargin for charr to step back

I wouldn’t say the Charr have almost contained the ghosts….that’s like saying “the Mexican government has almost contained the cartels”. Yea, they’re all in your territory alright and you’re sure doing a bang up job on that.

@draxynnic

And earlier when asked about krytan recolonizing of Orr we see them say:

(Ree Soesbee) : “The Ministry’s going to want to seize it, the Queen’s going to want to use it. But….”

ArenaNet (Jeff Grubb) : “I actually disagree with Kryta being involved but they have restricted access”

ArenaNet (Ree Soesbee) : “I meant they want it”

That seems pretty clear that there is no misinterpretation.

edit: I listened to the recording. I hear nothing indicating there is a “don’t”. And the present interpretation correlates with the rest of the answers around it.

On charr ghosts. They have ghostbore technology. that is a guaranteed answer. It’s only a matter of time. And I don’t see the charr giving up the land when they already have a working answer.