Guild Wars 2

draxynnic.3719:

The possibility of an undead king of Orr being elevated was one that crossed my mind. Probably not such a bad plan, if the result is a decent and effective monarch that won’t die of old age.

For some weird reason, I can’t stop imagining an uncorrupted Risen King still having Zhaitan verbal ticks.

Risen King: Thank you heroes for releasing me from Zhaitan-SHALL DEVOUR THIS WORLD!-’s influence.

Korsbaek.9803:

charr can try claim or same can humans but in the end it will boil down to what the pact wants as they conquered the land from Zhietan and that is no matter the intent they had by killing him they still conquered hes kingdom and hes kingdom is at the time of hes death the land masses of orr.

so if the pact(currently the leaders of the oders and trehearn) see it as the pact gets more out of orr by holding it and setting up a goverment there then thats what they do and no race has any right to stop them unless they declare the pact war.

*Zhaitan
*his
*orders
*Trahearne

The Pact is a multinational organization, not a devouring warmachine. Pact never had any kind of territory, only some bases. They didn’t conquer Orr, they liberated it.

Its leader is the biggest goodguy in GW2, and a specialist in Orr and its history. He knows exactly that this land belongs to the humans, a race which the Sylvaries got a good relation with.

Gandarel.5091:

Korsbaek.9803:

charr can try claim or same can humans but in the end it will boil down to what the pact wants as they conquered the land from Zhietan and that is no matter the intent they had by killing him they still conquered hes kingdom and hes kingdom is at the time of hes death the land masses of orr.

so if the pact(currently the leaders of the oders and trehearn) see it as the pact gets more out of orr by holding it and setting up a goverment there then thats what they do and no race has any right to stop them unless they declare the pact war.

*Zhaitan
*his
*orders
*Trahearne

The Pact is a multinational organization, not a devouring warmachine. Pact never had any kind of territory, only some bases. They didn’t conquer Orr, they liberated it.

Its leader is the biggest goodguy in GW2, and a specialist in Orr and its history. He knows exactly that this land belongs to the humans, a race which the Sylvaries got a good relation with.

the diffrences between libareting something and conquer something is nothing but the eyes looking at it.
the pact is 3 organizations that are working together yes that is true but after the elder dragons defeat we dont know if the vigil will just disband or will hold some of the land it could from the conquering of the elder dragons lands, the priory could use the lands of the elder dragons to extend there research to.

there is nothing the races in general can do to stop that as its there land into they say that they give it to someone or the races declare war on the orders.

Korsbaek.9803:

Gandarel.5091:

Korsbaek.9803:

charr can try claim or same can humans but in the end it will boil down to what the pact wants as they conquered the land from Zhietan and that is no matter the intent they had by killing him they still conquered hes kingdom and hes kingdom is at the time of hes death the land masses of orr.

so if the pact(currently the leaders of the oders and trehearn) see it as the pact gets more out of orr by holding it and setting up a goverment there then thats what they do and no race has any right to stop them unless they declare the pact war.

*Zhaitan
*his
*orders
*Trahearne

The Pact is a multinational organization, not a devouring warmachine. Pact never had any kind of territory, only some bases. They didn’t conquer Orr, they liberated it.

Its leader is the biggest goodguy in GW2, and a specialist in Orr and its history. He knows exactly that this land belongs to the humans, a race which the Sylvaries got a good relation with.

the diffrences between libareting something and conquer something is nothing but the eyes looking at it.
the pact is 3 organizations that are working together yes that is true but after the elder dragons defeat we dont know if the vigil will just disband or will hold some of the land it could from the conquering of the elder dragons lands, the priory could use the lands of the elder dragons to extend there research to.

there is nothing the races in general can do to stop that as its there land into they say that they give it to someone or the races declare war on the orders.

Can you actually show me the slightest sign of the pact acting like this? Ever?

Gandarel.5091:

Can you actually show me the slightest sign of the pact acting like this? Ever?

Just because ANet is lazy and ended the story with the end of fight celebration doesn’t mean that there’s no reason to extrapolate behavior based on previous exemplars. The Vigil is a military organization and would jump at the chance to claim Dragon lands for a new base. The Priory will want to stay to study the numerous archaeological sites. The Order of Whispers will stay just to keep an eye on everyone.

Of all the orders, the OoW will be the one to prevent the races from going to war over Orr, but they also won’t stop the Pact from accomplishing the greater good by forcing them to give up Orr to any one race. The Pact having somewhere significant to act from is a greater benefit to Tyria than humans getting some ancient mythological homeland back (which it isn’t even their homeland, it’s just the landing site for their Ancient Astronaut buddies who brought them to Tyria). It trumps the Charr’s interests in expanding their empire. It overrides all interests except those who align with their goals. That’s why people join orders to begin with, and that’s why the orders all joined forces to begin with. Just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

My question is what exact use would the Pact have in keeping a base in Orr? I mean the main reason for creating a base in Orr was to create a staging ground for the Orrian invasion, but at the point we’re talking about this would no longer be the case. Only 1 dragon may be anywhere near them, kralky, and for all we know he could have flown off in any direction for his new home. It would seem to make more sense for them to create a new fortification to act as a staging ground for their next target. I mean if it’s kralky then Fort Trinity might be fine, but for Jormag Fort Trinity is a pretty good distance from the action.

As for the Orders, I don’t think anyone has denied that the Priory would spend years studying the country. But I can’t believe that the Vigil will want to conquer new lands for themselves. They are the “national guard” of Tyria. We train to save the refugees and protect those in need. They aren’t conquerors. Might they build a fortress in order to provide some protection to the new settlers, perhaps, but I very highly doubt that they would try to govern or control.

then the question is are there going to be any treats to our way of life after the dragons and will the pact still exit then or will it disband
with what we have now there is no reason not to make a base in orr but that is only needed if they dont have a diffrent income to pay there soldiers and stuff like that

Narcemus.1348:

As for the Orders, I don’t think anyone has denied that the Priory would spend years studying the country. But I can’t believe that the Vigil will want to conquer new lands for themselves. They are the “national guard” of Tyria. We train to save the refugees and protect those in need. They aren’t conquerors. Might they build a fortress in order to provide some protection to the new settlers, perhaps, but I very highly doubt that they would try to govern or control.

So the Priory have a legitimate use claim for the lands. Good.

The Vigil… conquer? Conquer what? From whom? They already did their part to destroy the Elder Dragons in Orr. Now they’re making the area safe for people to move in and settle, or whatever someone plans to do there.

The Pact is just being responsible to the people who hare invariably going to come. No more, no less. And that is the basis of a government. It is certainly more egalitarian and benevolent than some of the existing governments in the game, and in real life.

The Vigil appears to have no interest in ruling land for itself. it will likely have a significant presence in Orr, yes, but it doesn’t need to declare the land conquered for the greater glory of the Pact to do so. It just needs to retain good relations with the nations that it stations its bases in.

The Priory will want to perform archaeology but, again, this only requires that the governments in the areas it wishes to operate in be cooperative, not that it BE the government. Furthermore, by the time it’s reasonable for anyone to settle Orr, it’s quite likely that the Priory would have already got everything they want out of it, and their only further interest is to preserve historically significant sites – and giving those sites to the people it’s most significant to is an efficient way of doing so.

None of the subsidiary orders of the Pact are empire builders. Yes, that could change. But when talking about the possibility of things changing, it’s also possible that the Canthans might invade or that the gods (or their representatives, such as the Forgotten) might return.

draxynnic.3719:

The Vigil appears to have no interest in ruling land for itself. it will likely have a significant presence in Orr, yes, but it doesn’t need to declare the land conquered for the greater glory of the Pact to do so. It just needs to retain good relations with the nations that it stations its bases in.

The Priory will want to perform archaeology but, again, this only requires that the governments in the areas it wishes to operate in be cooperative, not that it BE the government. Furthermore, by the time it’s reasonable for anyone to settle Orr, it’s quite likely that the Priory would have already got everything they want out of it, and their only further interest is to preserve historically significant sites – and giving those sites to the people it’s most significant to is an efficient way of doing so.

None of the subsidiary orders of the Pact are empire builders. Yes, that could change. But when talking about the possibility of things changing, it’s also possible that the Canthans might invade or that the gods (or their representatives, such as the Forgotten) might return.

that is true, that changes normally happen tho they are hard to consider when doing this.
its true that the vigil have not build a goverment yet but there have not been a reason to as all the land where allready taken but now they have 1/3 of orr(the other 2 orders have the rest right now) and there is no goverment there or anything else plus by going there doing it themself they know that the peoples intresest is taken care of, so to me there is little reason for the vigil not to place a goverment there.
the priory will most likely sell there land to the vigil or the order of whispers to get the right for all artifacts on there part to unless they split it by letting all artifacts go to the priory and all information still in orr go to the order of whispers and the vigil gets the land itself

Drakkon.4782:

The Vigil… conquer? Conquer what? From whom? They already did their part to destroy the Elder Dragons in Orr. Now they’re making the area safe for people to move in and settle, or whatever someone plans to do there.

My point was that the Vigil have shown no interest in leading or controlling others in any aspect other than making peace and fighting the dragons (and making peace was only so that they could focus on the dragons better). I know it is not necessary, but I could easily see the Vigil disbanding after the destruction of all the Elder Dragons just as easily as the Pact. Their roots do not go back nearly as far as the other groups, nor does their purpose hold to much more than just fighting dragons.

Narcemus.1348:

Drakkon.4782:

The Vigil… conquer? Conquer what? From whom? They already did their part to destroy the Elder Dragons in Orr. Now they’re making the area safe for people to move in and settle, or whatever someone plans to do there.

My point was that the Vigil have shown no interest in leading or controlling others in any aspect other than making peace and fighting the dragons (and making peace was only so that they could focus on the dragons better). I know it is not necessary, but I could easily see the Vigil disbanding after the destruction of all the Elder Dragons just as easily as the Pact. Their roots do not go back nearly as far as the other groups, nor does their purpose hold to much more than just fighting dragons.

And I said they would be happier and more likely to play police/national guard.

Also, to the guy who said none of the orders are empire builders: You really need to learn more about the Order of Whispers. They are most definitely empire builders and powers behind thrones. The subtext of their conversations and the subtle meanings of the things said imply that they are definitely in it for governing the world, in the front or by convincing others to be the face for the endeavor. I suspect they would convince Trahearne to claim Orr for the good of all.

I wouldn’t call them empire builders. They aren’t claiming anything for themselves at the moment, and if they were they are doing a terrible job at it based on the time span they have had to pull all of the nations under their banner. I mean it took as long as it has just to bring humanity and charr nations together. I understand that the Vigil is shown making a majority of the contribution there, but you best believe that the Order of Whispers was behind as many thrones/war strategy rooms as possible trying to push this agenda. The cooperation of these two races is one of the key points in creating an alliance to destroy the Elder Dragons, without it there would be a lot of turmoil in the world, more than just for those two races… I just don’t understand what political power they would gain if they leveraged their abilities in order to make Trahearne claim Orr for himself. He is not one of their pawns just yet.

In my mind, the Order of Whispers is best compared to the Aes Sedai of the Wheel of Time series. They manipulate the actions of all the nations, even those violently opposed to them, in order to create a world situation that is best for fighting the Dark One.

Narcemus.1348:

I wouldn’t call them empire builders. They aren’t claiming anything for themselves at the moment, and if they were they are doing a terrible job at it based on the time span they have had to pull all of the nations under their banner. I mean it took as long as it has just to bring humanity and charr nations together. I understand that the Vigil is shown making a majority of the contribution there, but you best believe that the Order of Whispers was behind as many thrones/war strategy rooms as possible trying to push this agenda. The cooperation of these two races is one of the key points in creating an alliance to destroy the Elder Dragons, without it there would be a lot of turmoil in the world, more than just for those two races… I just don’t understand what political power they would gain if they leveraged their abilities in order to make Trahearne claim Orr for himself. He is not one of their pawns just yet.

In my mind, the Order of Whispers is best compared to the Aes Sedai of the Wheel of Time series. They manipulate the actions of all the nations, even those violently opposed to them, in order to create a world situation that is best for fighting the Dark One.

If this thread is any indication, Humans are a stubborn, mindful, willful, obstinate, and arrogant lot. Guiding them towards the destination would be decidedly difficult. The Charr are a willful and prideful lot, too. Taking a long time to get them to the point where they’re willing to sit down and talk? Yeah, that could take a while. And it did.

As for Trahearne, he certainly is one of their pawns. He leads them in the fight against the Dragons. He trusts them to provide intelligence reports on the foes they will face and the things that need to be done. He is easily manipulated and controlled, certainly already under their control. I know I would have him under my thumb by now, were I the OoW. So why wouldn’t they suggest control of Orr, to keep the races from fighting over it. wink wink nudge nudge say no more.

Drakkon.4782:

Also, to the guy who said none of the orders are empire builders: You really need to learn more about the Order of Whispers. They are most definitely empire builders and powers behind thrones. The subtext of their conversations and the subtle meanings of the things said imply that they are definitely in it for governing the world, in the front or by convincing others to be the face for the endeavor. I suspect they would convince Trahearne to claim Orr for the good of all.

Actually, you’re the one who needs to learn more about the Order.

The Order of Whispers are empire manipulators, not empire builders. They’re not interested in ruling an empire for themselves (probably because that would put them in the public eye, and would fix them into being aligned with one nation in particular when they’d rather be seen as an impartial organisation by those political leaders that did know of their existence) – they prefer to manipulate politics from the shadows rather than directly take part of it themselves.

Now, of the three, the Order of Whispers is probably the one most likely to change its behaviour as a result of the Orrian campaign, since it required them to finally go public. However, I think they’re going to want to retain their status as an NGO that isn’t too closely affiliated with any one government rather than forming a government themselves. They’re probably the order that’s going to have the biggest interest in what the final settlement is, but they probably don’t want to be the ones in charge any more than anyone else does.

And in making that decision, they’re going to be aware of the political ramifications of that decision. They know that Orr is a place of major significance for humanity, and that a decision on Orr that humans aren’t happy with is likely to cause trouble in the future. They also know very well the political situation in Kryta, and that what happens with Orr will affect Kryta. Not to mention that the Order seems to be the one organisation that remains in communication with other continents, so they may well be keeping Cantha and other human nations elsewhere in the world in mind as well.

There’s also the fact that while the Order of Whispers is seen as impartial, it really isn’t. It formed as a human organisation, is still lead by a human, and is occasionally talked about by the devs as a human organisation, albeit one that has members of other races. Their multiracial status has come about because the Order of Whispers realised that humanity was best served by forming alliances with the other races against common enemies, and as a result they brought in members of other races that shared that realisation – but at the end of the line, the Master of Whispers is still a human, and when push comes to shove she’s probably going to make decisions that benefit humanity as long as they don’t conflict with the Order’s long-term goals. At the very least, human sensibilities are going to be in her mind.

(And, for the record, restoring Orr as a predominantly human nation would not be against those goals – a human nation that respects and acknowledges the contributions of other races in refounding that nation would do much more for racial harmony than if the Orders shoved a multiracial council over their holy land down the collective throats of humanity).

draxynnic.3719:

Actually, you’re the one who needs to learn more about the Order.
The Order of Whispers are empire manipulators, not empire builders.

You have to have something there to manipulate first. Manipulators aren’t above putting something in place to work with. That’s building, and you can’t separate builders from manipulators. As I said, the subtext of the conversations you have with the Master of Whispers and other Preceptors indicates to me that they understand the process of putting a puppet government in place and are willing to do so. While the average player will be stuck at the “they’re spies and they gather intelligence” level of understanding about the Order, anyone who reads and analyzes intel reports will be able to tell you that consciously or not, they’re giving away a LOT of their hand by showing just how far they’ll go to control things. The Order of Whispers very much sees itself not just as the power behind the throne in Kryta, but as the ones actually running things. They like Jennah being on the throne because she’s easier to manipulate than a counsel of ministers. Jennah is one person and she is emotional and fairly easily handled. The Ministers are many, and getting a consensus out of them is much more difficult.

The same process applies to Orr. With the Pact in de facto control of Orr, as they are at the end of your personal story, Trahearne is the leader of the fledgeling nation that is being established there. It isn’t a matter of whether or not he wants to be Orr’s ruler, or if the Pact should or could control Orr, because he is and they do. The Order of Whispers is now directly supporting the new ruler of Orr, and until someone better for the job comes along, I don’t see them letting things change. Orr is in good hands for keeping the peace in Tyria, and that is what they want. No one else in the game is in the proper place to take over, either covertly or overtly.

So, you see, Empire Building isn’t necessary, though that is what the entire process is called. The empire is already established. We did that all throughout the Personal Story. We just didn’t see it that way. But step back and look at every other power struggle to topple a corrupt or “evil” government, stripping away the context of “dragons” and “undead” and “risen” and you’re left with a small group fighting against an established leader, attempting to overthrow his regime, affect change on the country and establish a new government. Right now, we’re in the period of semi-anarchy that follows any government failing. The Pact is strong enough, and if it stays together, and there is no indication that it won’t, it will emerge as the one ruler of Orr.

There are no other real contenders. We can talk about the humans and their bloodlines and whether or not, as aliens from another world they even have a right to claim anything on Tyria as their own until we’re blue in the face, but as the old saying goes, “possession is 9/10th of the law” and the Pact possesses Orr.

-snip-

And that makes everything you just said irrelevant.

I have to point out that, so far they do not like Jennah on the throne because she is easy to manipulate, but because thus far her goals have aligned very strongly with their own. It is much easier for them to keep a person in power whose thought process is very similar to their own than to “train” a new leader in the right way to do things.

I don’t have time to go into the rest if it, which I fully disagree with, but I’ll come back to it at some time (or more likely it’ll be 3 more pages of posts before I get back again).

Narcemus.1348:

I have to point out that, so far they do not like Jennah on the throne because she is easy to manipulate, but because thus far her goals have aligned very strongly with their own. It is much easier for them to keep a person in power whose thought process is very similar to their own than to “train” a new leader in the right way to do things.

I don’t have time to go into the rest if it, which I fully disagree with, but I’ll come back to it at some time (or more likely it’ll be 3 more pages of posts before I get back again).

Of course her goals align with theirs. They’re telling her what her goals are. Anyway, however you choose to see her, the OoW likes her right where she is, and they can keep her there. So long as she is there, they’ll have a pawn they can control, whether or not they actually talk about it overtly.

There’s no evidence that Jennah is following the orders of the Order of Whispers, and in fact plenty of evidence that they do not have control of Kryta. If the Order controlled Kryta, then the human-charr war would likely have ended quite a bit sooner, and in Edge of Destiny Jennah was actually looking to escalate that war before the Dragonrise and the events around it persuaded her otherwise. With that move being completely against the Order’s objectives, she can’t be the OoW puppet you claim.

The Order of Whispers can manipulate, but they do not have any of Tyria’s leaders, human or otherwise, on puppet strings. It may be that the various other secret organisations of Tyria such as the Shining Blade are able to ensure the independence of their leaders, or it may be part of the OoW’s paranoia that they deliberately avoid seizing too much power for themselves, in order to limit the damage that will be done if the OoW itself is corrupted or compromised (as almost happened with Riel’s predecessor). Regardless, Jennah is important to them not because she’s an easily-manipulated puppet – she is, in fact, neither easily manipulated nor a puppet – but because she’s independently come to the same conclusions and is following the same goals.

Yes, it is entirely likely that the Order of Whispers will act as kingmakers given the opportunity – in fact, that’s something I’ve been saying all along. But it’s not in their nature to rule a nation directly. Nor is it in the nature of the Vigil or the Priory – although, of the three, for reasons discussed previously, the Order of Whispers is probably the one of the three most likely to change its methods in the wake of the personal story.

Finally, another point you’re missing is that a nation set up by the Order of Whispers may still be a human one. You’re trying to flippantly brush it aside, but as I keep pointing out, the Order knows that Orr is important to humanity, and what happens in Orr will have ramifications elsewhere – in public opinion in Kryta as I’ve mentioned, in the reduced likelihood that Cantha will go holy war over Orr if it’s human governed, and so on. That’s something the politically astute OoW is going to take into account.

Even if they do wish to set up a puppet government as you claim, the simplest way for them to do that is actually to set up a nominally human monarchy. Fake a lineage connecting one of their agents to the Orrian monarchy (if they haven’t actually got a genuine heir stashed away, which as I’ve also said previously, I wouldn’t put past them) and set them on the throne – that provides them with a degree of legitimacy beyond simple right of conquest as well as a ruler that, by your own arguments, would be easier to control than a multiracial council or the chosen-specifically-because-he’s-independent-of-the-orders Trahearne.

unless you can find proff that OoW did not have anything to do with her changing oppinion there still is a chance they made her change oppinion.
tho thats a diffrent diskusion.

the easyest way to deal with orr and put op a puppet goverment is not giveing it to humans or anything else it would proberly be to set the most charimatic person they can find and control, place him on some kind of president seat and just do all the things from the shadows but i gess OoW’s days in the shadows is numbered unless they make a fake disbanding but that will still make it take a long time before they are able to completely roam in the underworld agien

Gandarel.5091:

Or would you give it to the.. rightful owners? With high chances of being a good ally

You were doing so well, and then you said this. If you truly understood anything about politics, governments, puppet governments, powers behind the throne and anything else we have been discussing, you would know that not only does a “rightful owner” not exist EVER, but should someone prove to have the strongest claim, it is complete irreverent to the process because facts can be changed, information altered, opponents assassinated, and all manner of black and unsavory acts committed to make whatever you want to happen happen. Your pro-human agenda aside, there is no true heir to the Orrian Throne, and any who step forward are putting the world’s largest bullseye on their backs. No one in their right mind is going to step up to claim Orr. Ever.

Korsbaek.9803:

unless you can find proff that OoW did not have anything to do with her changing oppinion there still is a chance they made her change oppinion.
tho thats a diffrent diskusion.

Her change of opinion is clearly shown right in the end of the book Edge of Destiny. She had just wrangled the asura into re-building the gate network connecting Ebonhawke to Divinity’s Reach. She was giving a speech of the combined efforts of Divinity’s Reach and Ebonhawke when Kralkatorrik awoke, created the brand, and opened a door to let in a horde of branded. As she was running to safety she looked into the mind of the dragon and was terrified. In this moment, after her great illusion that drew all the branded away, she freed all of the captured charr under the notion of having to work together against these types of challenges. Unless the Order of Whispers were behind the awakening of Kralkatorrik, I’d say they were not behind her change of heart on the subject.

Narcemus.1348:

Korsbaek.9803:

unless you can find proff that OoW did not have anything to do with her changing oppinion there still is a chance they made her change oppinion.
tho thats a diffrent diskusion.

Her change of opinion is clearly shown right in the end of the book Edge of Destiny. She had just wrangled the asura into re-building the gate network connecting Ebonhawke to Divinity’s Reach. She was giving a speech of the combined efforts of Divinity’s Reach and Ebonhawke when Kralkatorrik awoke, created the brand, and opened a door to let in a horde of branded. As she was running to safety she looked into the mind of the dragon and was terrified. In this moment, after her great illusion that drew all the branded away, she freed all of the captured charr under the notion of having to work together against these types of challenges. Unless the Order of Whispers were behind the awakening of Kralkatorrik, I’d say they were not behind her change of heart on the subject.

they most likely where not behind the awakening but they could have lead kralkatorrik down the path to ebonhawk or forseen that kralkatorrik would awaken there and make sure the queen would be in town at the point he would get close. forsight is a very importent abilety when manipulating indirectly and over time.

Korsbaek.9803:

they most likely where not behind the awakening but they could have lead kralkatorrik down the path to ebonhawk or forseen that kralkatorrik would awaken there and make sure the queen would be in town at the point he would get close. forsight is a very importent abilety when manipulating indirectly and over time.

lol

You would think if they have that much control over the movement of nations they’d have created a super state by now to suppress the dragons and dealt with morons like Caudecus…

Except we know Kralkatorrik went by Ebonhawke on his way to deal with Glint whom he knew had betrayed them. And the people directly pushing Jennah to the top of the Keep, where she would be the safest from the Branded, were the Shining Blade. Her personal guard. If the Order of Whispers is controlling her personal guard then they have delved pretty deep. The thing is, they couldn’t have known that Kralkatorrik would go for Glint, because it wasn’t until that point in time that the secret of her being a dragon champion was given away…

Narcemus.1348:

Except we know Kralkatorrik went by Ebonhawke on his way to deal with Glint whom he knew had betrayed them. And the people directly pushing Jennah to the top of the Keep, where she would be the safest from the Branded, were the Shining Blade. Her personal guard. If the Order of Whispers is controlling her personal guard then they have delved pretty deep. The thing is, they couldn’t have known that Kralkatorrik would go for Glint, because it wasn’t until that point in time that the secret of her being a dragon champion was given away…

that is if the OoW dont have information we dont have to us and that is very likely and by people pushing her to the top of a keep is most likely not the safes place when the attack is from the air;)
so the ide of placeing her there could also have been done by manipulation so that people would think thats the safest place.

Except it was. There was no attack from the air, Kralkatorrik just flew by and shot a bolt of lightning at the wall causing it to shatter. The attack was by branded ogres pouring in through the hole in the wall. So yes, going up in the tower was to keep her safe from the battle occurring below. And unless you want to claim that Anise is an Order of Whispers agent, you probably should end this like of argument, because she was the one pushing her further up.

Narcemus.1348:

And unless you want to claim that Anise is an Order of Whispers agent

Readying myself for the inevitable misspelled and grammatically lacking counter-idea supported only by “my plot needs it” and “Deus Ex Machina time, and I’m the Deus”.

Anise dont need to be a OoW agent when there exist something called forseigth and prediction your enemy/friend. lets say that the OoW has a very good ide of what makes Jonnah work and why she does things. same with Anise and the other people that has any word in stuff like that(for manipulation that infomation is to so degree a must atleast if it needs to be done from the shadows)
predicting what the dragon might do is impossible given OoW has no info what so ever about them at the time and we still dont(when looking at why they do as they do), but with the information they have at hand they could manipulate it so that jonnah gets to where she would likely do what they what her to do.
doing stuff like that is kinda easy and if you want a real world example i hve one tho its on a lot smaller degree: look at any chain of shops, the way they have placed there things in the store is formed so that you buy the most from them.(and you can agree or disagree but it is a given fact that they use psycolegy to determen where things should be placed, and its also a manipulation of the consumer)

+1 to Lostwingman for calling it! A poorly spelled, grammatically lacking, counter-idea supported by a lack of logic.

Drakkon.4782:

+1 to Lostwingman for calling it! A poorly spelled, grammatically lacking, counter-idea supported by a lack of logic.

what lack of logic?
please explain how it is a impossible thing? if its not impossible we have no way to rule it out;)

Korsbaek.9803:

Drakkon.4782:

+1 to Lostwingman for calling it! A poorly spelled, grammatically lacking, counter-idea supported by a lack of logic.

what lack of logic?
please explain how it is a impossible thing? if its not impossible we have no way to rule it out;)

1) The spelling and grammar are so bad it is impossible to tell what you’re talking about. Learn how to communicate effectively before you type. Please. Life is much easier when you can communicate your ideas properly.
2) I never said it was impossible. I said it was devoid of logic. There’s a big difference. Again, perhaps some vocabulary builders would help. Words have specific meanings. When used properly, they are very good at spreading ideas and concepts. When used poorly, they only cause confusion. You have sown confusion. I am sad.

Drakkon.4782:

Korsbaek.9803:

Drakkon.4782:

+1 to Lostwingman for calling it! A poorly spelled, grammatically lacking, counter-idea supported by a lack of logic.

what lack of logic?
please explain how it is a impossible thing? if its not impossible we have no way to rule it out;)

1) The spelling and grammar are so bad it is impossible to tell what you’re talking about. Learn how to communicate effectively before you type. Please. Life is much easier when you can communicate your ideas properly.
2) I never said it was impossible. I said it was devoid of logic. There’s a big difference. Again, perhaps some vocabulary builders would help. Words have specific meanings. When used properly, they are very good at spreading ideas and concepts. When used poorly, they only cause confusion. You have sown confusion. I am sad.

first my spelling is bad i know that, and i am working on it but that will take time to improve.

second where is the lag of logic? would it not be a lag of logic if the OoW did not manipulate the rules of the different nations when they have the chance for it and if they have been pushing peace then gambling with a leader that dont want peace, to make the leader want peace instead or die is with little risk when it cant be traced back to them.

My point is that the events at the end of Edge of Destiny were extremely random.

1) The Order of Whispers would have had to know when Kralky would awake and where he would go, which means that they would have information about Glint and Kralky’s past that we are only certain that the Nightmare Court MAY have known. Faolain could have just been stirring up trouble and been randomly right, but it seems more likely that they somehow found out. Still, they would have had to determine that Kralky WOULDN’T just brand Ebonhawke and Queen Jennah which would have ruined their whole plan. A whole lot of risk there.

2. They would have had to have a part in timing the creation of the new asuran gate in Ebonhawke and the timing of the celebration to work out exactly when Kralky would awaken. This part seems actually possible to people of their caliber.

The biggest problem for me is somehow knowing that Krakly would avoid and yet attack Ebonhawke and predict his and his minions’ movements. It just doesn’t seem possible when they would not know how the dragon thinks.

Narcemus.1348:

My point is that the events at the end of Edge of Destiny were extremely random.

1) The Order of Whispers would have had to know when Kralky would awake and where he would go, which means that they would have information about Glint and Kralky’s past that we are only certain that the Nightmare Court MAY have known. Faolain could have just been stirring up trouble and been randomly right, but it seems more likely that they somehow found out. Still, they would have had to determine that Kralky WOULDN’T just brand Ebonhawke and Queen Jennah which would have ruined their whole plan. A whole lot of risk there.

2. They would have had to have a part in timing the creation of the new asuran gate in Ebonhawke and the timing of the celebration to work out exactly when Kralky would awaken. This part seems actually possible to people of their caliber.

The biggest problem for me is somehow knowing that Krakly would avoid and yet attack Ebonhawke and predict his and his minions’ movements. It just doesn’t seem possible when they would not know how the dragon thinks.

that is if they planed it all but they could have been fast thinkers when they see the attack of the dragon and found the option that would most likely make jennah join in on the peace talk. and they could have had something else planned to at the celebration but as the dragon attacked they had to think fast and this is what they come up with in that short amount of time.

i know it is possible but it is also likely that they dont had anything to do with the change of heart(to be honost i dont belive they had anyhting to do with the change of heart but i cant rule out that they might have had something to do with it, and thing im agienst is the its impossible because i cant see it as logical or it would be impossible because I cant think of a way to do it.)

It is preferable, IMO, to think that she came to her own conclusions on the subject which made her a valuable asset to the Order of Whispers. Which means her continued support leading the human population of Kryta would be of utmost importance to the Order of Whispers. This would be because if the Ministry got control of Kryta the peace talks with the charr would almost instantly cease and there would be very little assistance from humans in further battles with the Elder Dragons. This would also decrease the Iron Legion presence because they would once-more have to defend those lands from both humans and ogres. Because of this, creating a situation where humanity gets no reward for it’s assistance in the fight against the Elder Dragons, by giving it’s heritage over to everyone else would be a bad move on the Order’s part. Giving Orr away to everyone else would make the queen look weak and give others in power the ability to sway humanity away from her rule. This single move could do more to weaken the Pact than anything else.

And thus I brought us back around to the topic. Please, Please, no applause necessary

there is the chance that not giving it to humans will get the people of kryta to be displeased and turn off there leader yes but what are the orders gaining for there work and by giving it to humans with no reason what so ever other then the queen will look bad and its a old human kingdom(that killed itself, yes i know it where one man that did it but hes plan got a apprveal of the king makeing it the kings the act that of the king and that is fact even if the king did not know what the plan where or anything), and i from experaince haveing a nation rulled by one race the other will at some point fell suppreced if not get suppreced by the ruling race and that is the reason we should not give it to humans, we know that the other races are going to be precent there to some degree for diffrent reasons i think we have all come to agree on that.

Korsbaek.9803:

what are the orders gaining for there work and by giving it to humans with no reason what so ever other then the queen will look bad and its a old human kingdom

If that’s your understanding of the situation and what was said, then there is no hope of ever convincing you of anything logical. At this point you’re either ignoring what people tell you for convenience or you literally cannot use logic.

Korsbaek.9803:

i from experaince haveing a nation rulled by one race

kitten man web browsers have freaking spell checkers. Use them.
Also waaaaaaaaaaaaaaat

Korsbaek.9803:

the other will at some point fell suppreced if not get suppreced by the ruling race and that is the reason we should not give it to humans

This makes literally no sense in the context of this and appears to be jumping to conclusions that previously required only Saturn V rockets to reach.

Korsbaek.9803:

we know that the other races are going to be precent there to some degree for diffrent reasons i think we have all come to agree on that.

This has nothing to do almost with what you’ve previously stated and seems to backtrack it.
I don’t know, I don’t even know what you’re saying. I’m no longer sure I ever could.

Are you just trolling? Like, do you post just to watch people fumble through your posts trying to make sense of them? Either proofread your posts or don’t bother.

Once cured, Orr will probably be inhabited by all friendly races.
Humans will claim their history.
Charr will claim any new land.
Asura will want to have say in new colonisaton as well, plus there will be research possibilities.
Silvary will have a big role in curing and reshaping the land and will thus look for places to explore.
Even Quaggans might look for refuge once the waters are less dangerous.

Only the Norn may be left out since they really have no interest in Orr. Though we might see a few Norn looking to find big game.

Consortium, they’ll inhabit anything they can see a profit in. Free Orr tours! XD

NinjaChris.9340:

Charr will claim any new land.

What? Why?
They have no reason to establish and maintain a large force so far away that would only drain their resources from more pertinent matters.
I have no understanding of why people think there would be Charr hordes in Orr post Zhaitan when it benefits them in no meaningful way except to say “lel, we own lotsa land”. Kitten, they are even conceding portions of their current holdings to Ebonhawke so they don’t have to bother with fighting them anymore and those guys are right on their doorstep.
The Charr are reprioritizing their forces and are beginning to see the benefits of humans as allies (although not all are convinced yet). Unless for some oddball reason this reprioritization revolves around claiming (again, for the seemingly only benefit of claiming it) Orr, there is no reason for that. Charr outposts? Sure, but I don’t see a reason to expect much.

And thus the same debate we’ve been having for 10 pages continues

Korsbaek.9803:

(that killed itself, yes i know it where one man that did it but hes plan got a apprveal of the king makeing it the kings the act that of the king and that is fact even if the king did not know what the plan where or anything)

Actually, no. The king gave him approval to go into the vaults below Orr to get an artifact that would save them from the Charr. This is, in fact, very well documented. From our understanding of the events, it is possible (however unlikely) that Vizier Khilbron didn’t even know that the spell would destroy the entire continent. There was definitely a demon over his shoulder telling him what to do, but there is no evidence that he knew what the end result would have been.

that does not change that he got approvel of the king to do it makeing it the act of the nation and not one man

How does lying to someone about what you are going to do make it the act of the nation? It would be like a close adviser talking to the president, with enemies on our shores devastating everything in their path, telling him he has a plan to save the US if only he was given the controls to everything. The president, in desperation, gives over the controls and this adviser nukes the whole country. How is this the act of the country? The only end-result that they knew of was the saving of the country, they didn’t choose to be destroyed.

Narcemus.1348:

How does lying to someone about what you are going to do make it the act of the nation? It would be like a close adviser talking to the president, with enemies on our shores devastating everything in their path, telling him he has a plan to save the US if only he was given the controls to everything. The president, in desperation, gives over the controls and this adviser nukes the whole country. How is this the act of the country? The only end-result that they knew of was the saving of the country, they didn’t choose to be destroyed.

the president choose the wrong adviser to listen to but it is still the choose of the president that destroys the nation not the adviser, as without the presidents choose of giving the adviser enough power so he can send the nukes then there is no nukes to be send.

and in gw2 its the kings fault for not asking what the plan involved when agreeing to it and as the kings decision to follow the advisers plan then its also the decision of the nation.

i know it might be hard to comprehend but anything the king does is the will of the nation as he is the nation(agree or not but thats how it is, and its the difference between a democracy and dictator ship(a monarch is a dictator with a fancy name)).
so to sum it up, the king agrees to let the adviser do what he can to save the nation but in the attempt he ends up destroying it but as the king has given him the permission to try save the nation, the king decided not to ask questions to the adviser first and that proved fatal but that is the mistake of the king and as the king has given acceptance to the adviser to try then it is also the kings fault, but as the king is the nation its also the nations fault.

and yes the commeners has no opinion or rights in a monarchy what so ever, so even if they dont agree with the king that is of little impotence here.

and its the kings duty to know if its a lie or not(even when impossible)

I must have just taken a hit of acid.
What kind of ridiculous parameters, conclusions, and qualifiers were just fired off?
Psychic kings?
Ludicrous definition of a monarch and dictator?
Future sight?
Deus Ex Machina?
“Things are this way because I need it to be that way”?

Figures.

Lostwingman.5034:

I must have just taken a hit of acid.
What kind of ridiculous parameters, conclusions, and qualifiers were just fired off?
Psychic kings?
Ludicrous definition of a monarch and dictator?
Future sight?
Deus Ex Machina?
“Things are this way because I need it to be that way”?

Figures.

first off a king/queen is something with supreme rule and ANYTHING they say is law and if they decide to trust someone with a plan then they have decided on that plan.
so it is the monarchs fault if anything bad happens to but hes not standing responsible to anyone as there is none equal to him to judge him.

how is that changing the tings for it to be may way because i need it?

a kingdom is not like in fairy tales so stop looking at it like that(i know that monarch generally dont have any kind of power anymore as they choose to give it to the people but that does not change it where there decision it where given to the people)

@Korsbaek- Think of it this way. If you were the King and I was the adviser. I say there could be something down in the vault that could save the kingdom and ask to look, would you say no? Then I find something but rather than tell you I take it and try to use it with an end result of destroying everything. Is that still your fault even though I didn’t tell you I had plans to use it with or without your permission?

Now I could be wrong but I don’t think Kilborn got permission, if you look at the GW wiki it says he looked through the texts in panic then stole it from Arah which doesn’t sound like he got permission at all but can’t necessarily take wiki at face value all the time.

Mist.6217:

@Korsbaek- Think of it this way. If you were the King and I was the adviser. I say there could be something down in the vault that could save the kingdom and ask to look, would you say no? Then I find something but rather than tell you I take it and try to use it with an end result of destroying everything. Is that still your fault even though I didn’t tell you I had plans to use it with or without your permission?

Now I could be wrong but I don’t think Kilborn got permission, if you look at the GW wiki it says he looked through the texts in panic then stole it from Arah which doesn’t sound like he got permission at all but can’t necessarily take wiki at face value all the time.

it is still my fault he is able to use it as i did not have enough secourty there then and haveing stuff that can destroy so much land i would say it is my fault its true its in a diffrent way my fault then but that does still not change its my fault.

So then, by your standards, if you made an vault lined with the toughest materials possible, made so physically entering was impossible and put the “end life” button inside (assuming that you didn’t create the button, just that it existed and needed to be kept safe and destroying it was not an option) and then The Doctor in his TARDIS just jumped in, pressed the button, and jumped out it is your fault for not seeing that possibility? You are coming to insane conclusions, I’m sorry.