Guild Wars 2

Narcemus.1348:

So then, by your standards, if you made an vault lined with the toughest materials possible, made so physically entering was impossible and put the “end life” button inside (assuming that you didn’t create the button, just that it existed and needed to be kept safe and destroying it was not an option) and then The Doctor in his TARDIS just jumped in, pressed the button, and jumped out it is your fault for not seeing that possibility? You are coming to insane conclusions, I’m sorry.

if i gave him promision to enter for something else then and then did not control that he did not take anything else yes then its my fault

Korsbaek.9803:

Narcemus.1348:

So then, by your standards, if you made an vault lined with the toughest materials possible, made so physically entering was impossible and put the “end life” button inside (assuming that you didn’t create the button, just that it existed and needed to be kept safe and destroying it was not an option) and then The Doctor in his TARDIS just jumped in, pressed the button, and jumped out it is your fault for not seeing that possibility? You are coming to insane conclusions, I’m sorry.

if i gave him promision to enter for something else then and then did not control that he did not take anything else yes then its my fault

That’s freaking ludicrous.
Unless monarchs are supposed to be omniscient gods your ideas are entirely kitten insane.
In fact, why don’t we just say that.
Korsbaek thinks only omniscient gods are qualified to rule as a monarch and fit the ludicrous definition set forth.
Therefore no nation in Tyria has a monarchy!
The queen is an imposter!
Revolution!
Let’s take this to where its heading though, the only true monarchs in Tyria are the Elder Dragons by your definition as they can at least assume control of their peons. Both controlling their minions and knowing all they know, wow! Such great and ideal monarchs!
Long Live Jormag!

I cannot believe the ideas you have. I literally cannot believe you are not trolling.

Korsbaek.9803:

it is still my fault he is able to use it as i did not have enough secourty there then and haveing stuff that can destroy so much land i would say it is my fault its true its in a diffrent way my fault then but that does still not change its my fault.

So it’s the King’s fault that he had his troops fighting the Charr rather than guarding the tombs where there was no threat from attack? Sorry but that logic, or lack of, is very very poor at the best. Blaming the King, and in turn the Orrian people, for the actions of an individual in the destruction of Orr is an argument without fact or logic. That would be like me setting a nuke off in the US then blaming the president for the destruction of the US. See the lack of logic in that argument?

Again I may have missed something but was Kilborn actually authorized by the King to go in the tomb to search for something that would help or did he do it all on his own as the wiki text would suggest?

The problem is the lore on it is grey due to the lack of anyone living afterwards. There is some text stating that he was given permission to search for an artifact that would save the kingdom. There is some evidence to the fact that he may have actually thought his actions would save the kingdom, him being tricked by a demon much like Shiro, but his belief in Abaddon may mean that he could have meant to destroy Arah afterall (since that was Abaddon’s intention). But all-in-all, the Vizier was the King’s closes adviser, and could have quite possibly even been adviser to his father (seeing as Reza looks quite young in game). This would make him one of his most trusted friends. Would you really blame yourself if you turned your back on your closest friend and they stabbed you? NO! They are one of the people you trust the most, why would you doubt their intentions?

Mist.6217:

Korsbaek.9803:

it is still my fault he is able to use it as i did not have enough secourty there then and haveing stuff that can destroy so much land i would say it is my fault its true its in a diffrent way my fault then but that does still not change its my fault.

So it’s the King’s fault that he had his troops fighting the Charr rather than guarding the tombs where there was no threat from attack? Sorry but that logic, or lack of, is very very poor at the best. Blaming the King, and in turn the Orrian people, for the actions of an individual in the destruction of Orr is an argument without fact or logic. That would be like me setting a nuke off in the US then blaming the president for the destruction of the US. See the lack of logic in that argument?

Again I may have missed something but was Kilborn actually authorized by the King to go in the tomb to search for something that would help or did he do it all on his own as the wiki text would suggest?

if the president gave you promision into the area where the lanch mechanism is yes then i would blame the president for the good kitten uke that where under hes control.

@Korsbaek- It wouldn’t matter if he gave permission or not. The action would be mine, my choice to do it. Him giving permission would be a direct act of treason, depending on circumstances, which in most cases would nullify his choice before it was made. If then I still went through with it, in one of the cases that would be treasonous, I would still be the cause because his choice again goes against the ‘right’ choice.

Blaming the leader for the actions of one, regardless of that one’s position, is bad logic. If the King gave him permission to look but did not give permission to do anything without further approval Kilborn would be at full fault for his actions. Now if the King agreed with Kilborn that it may help without knowledge of what it would do to Orr than yes the King would share blame. Based of the wiki and Narcemus’s post Kilborn had permission to enter but NOT use the text. That means the King did NOT provide him permission to act and his action, while in possibly good faith to defeat the Charr, was an act of treason for not gain permission to do so first.

Mist.6217:

@Korsbaek- It wouldn’t matter if he gave permission or not. The action would be mine, my choice to do it. Him giving permission would be a direct act of treason, depending on circumstances, which in most cases would nullify his choice before it was made. If then I still went through with it, in one of the cases that would be treasonous, I would still be the cause because his choice again goes against the ‘right’ choice.

Blaming the leader for the actions of one, regardless of that one’s position, is bad logic. If the King gave him permission to look but did not give permission to do anything without further approval Kilborn would be at full fault for his actions. Now if the King agreed with Kilborn that it may help without knowledge of what it would do to Orr than yes the King would share blame. Based of the wiki and Narcemus’s post Kilborn had permission to enter but NOT use the text. That means the King did NOT provide him permission to act and his action, while in possibly good faith to defeat the Charr, was an act of treason for not gain permission to do so first.

the king is to blame that Kilborn could steal it without anyone stopping him. simple as this if you have anything that can destroy a nation and dont have massuers so it wont be used agienst you then its your fault that it got used atleast that is my oppinion

Korsbaek.9803:

the king is to blame that Kilborn could steal it without anyone stopping him. simple as this if you have anything that can destroy a nation and dont have massuers so it wont be used agienst you then its your fault that it got used atleast that is my oppinion

Things like this are why I wish this forum had an ignore feature….it doesn’t right?
Please say it does…

Btw “king fault” theory is really logical. IRL, if you own military-grade weapon, you are one who take responsibility for it by the law. And if your friend/family member/etc takes this weapon and kills someone with it, you will be arrested and taken to the court too.

Rednik.3809:

Btw “king fault” theory is really logical.

Oh I can’t wait to hear this.

IRL, if you own military-grade weapon, you are one who take responsibility for it by the law. And if your friend/family member/etc takes this weapon and kills someone with it, you will be arrested and taken to the court too.

Except that isn’t analogous to the situation here.
That’s a matter of private ownership and individual responsibility to secure a highly regulated weapon. One person taking care of one item is one thing, one person personally managing, securing, maintaining, and deploying an entire nations “weapon stockpile” (see below) is another. Hell, this isn’t even an “weapon stockpile” (see below) we’re talking about its archives. So ontop of expecting that one person should be in total control of an entire nations “weapon stockpile” (see below) we should also expect them to be in total control of all recorded knowledge. PFFFTTT

If we apply your example to this situation i it is more akin to no one in the United States able to go near a military base except for the president. It’s ridiculous, unreasonable, and not how logic or real life works. In things like this because leaders are not omniscient and omnipotent it is built in that they delegate responsibilities down. That is expected and how the real world works at that scale. This is why all of Korsbaek’s statements are ridiculous. He is setting standards that make no sense unless leaders are supposed to ascend to godhood in order to lead.

Oh holy mother of god the kitten word filter won’t let me use “a——-r——-s——-e——-nal”
It’s the term for a kitten stockpile of weapons. I literally cannot believe this garbage.
kitten I can’t even explain anything in clear terms because this forum is so terrible.

Lostwingman.5034:

Rednik.3809:

Btw “king fault” theory is really logical.

Oh I can’t wait to hear this.

IRL, if you own military-grade weapon, you are one who take responsibility for it by the law. And if your friend/family member/etc takes this weapon and kills someone with it, you will be arrested and taken to the court too.

Except that isn’t analogous to the situation here.
That’s a matter of private ownership and individual responsibility to secure a highly regulated weapon. One person taking care of one item is one thing, one person personally managing, securing, maintaining, and deploying an entire nations “weapon stockpile” (see below) is another. Hell, this isn’t even an “weapon stockpile” (see below) we’re talking about its archives. So ontop of expecting that one person should be in total control of an entire nations “weapon stockpile” (see below) we should also expect them to be in total control of all recorded knowledge. PFFFTTT

If we apply your example to this situation i it is more akin to no one in the United States able to go near a military base except for the president. It’s ridiculous, unreasonable, and not how logic or real life works. In things like this because leaders are not omniscient and omnipotent it is built in that they delegate responsibilities down. That is expected and how the real world works at that scale. This is why all of Korsbaek’s statements are ridiculous. He is setting standards that make no sense unless leaders are supposed to ascend to godhood in order to lead.

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Oh holy mother of god the kitten word filter won’t let me use “a——-r——-s——-e——-nal”
It’s the term for a kitten stockpile of weapons. I literally cannot believe this garbage.
kitten I can’t even explain anything in clear terms because this forum is so terrible.

no im stating that a leader should make systems so that none can use it unless intented from highest place, one system would be to have 2 others go down in the archavies with him and then he could not steal any thing that could blow up the nation.
some of the information you can gain in tyria has the power as a nuke or more and should atleast have the same kind of security to them.

Korsbaek.9803:

Lostwingman.5034:

Rednik.3809:

Btw “king fault” theory is really logical.

Oh I can’t wait to hear this.

IRL, if you own military-grade weapon, you are one who take responsibility for it by the law. And if your friend/family member/etc takes this weapon and kills someone with it, you will be arrested and taken to the court too.

Except that isn’t analogous to the situation here.
That’s a matter of private ownership and individual responsibility to secure a highly regulated weapon. One person taking care of one item is one thing, one person personally managing, securing, maintaining, and deploying an entire nations “weapon stockpile” (see below) is another. Hell, this isn’t even an “weapon stockpile” (see below) we’re talking about its archives. So ontop of expecting that one person should be in total control of an entire nations “weapon stockpile” (see below) we should also expect them to be in total control of all recorded knowledge. PFFFTTT

If we apply your example to this situation i it is more akin to no one in the United States able to go near a military base except for the president. It’s ridiculous, unreasonable, and not how logic or real life works. In things like this because leaders are not omniscient and omnipotent it is built in that they delegate responsibilities down. That is expected and how the real world works at that scale. This is why all of Korsbaek’s statements are ridiculous. He is setting standards that make no sense unless leaders are supposed to ascend to godhood in order to lead.

---

Oh holy mother of god the kitten word filter won’t let me use “a——-r——-s——-e——-nal”
It’s the term for a kitten stockpile of weapons. I literally cannot believe this garbage.
kitten I can’t even explain anything in clear terms because this forum is so terrible.

no im stating that a leader should make systems so that none can use it unless intented from highest place, one system would be to have 2 others go down in the archavies with him and then he could not steal any thing that could blow up the nation.
some of the information you can gain in tyria has the power as a nuke or more and should atleast have the same kind of security to them.

Hahaha oh wow
So you want a system so inefficient and useless that it can only be accessed within the Kings physical presence? I suppose the King should also bring the Army with him just in case said advisor hired assassins so he could access the archives without the King? Oh but wait! By your logic that would be inviting even more problems because what if the Army is in cahoots with the advisor! Ooops! The King should have to expect taht everyone is out to get him! Maybe we shouldn’t even have an archive then? No! Maybe we shouldn’t even have an army, advisors, or citizens! Who knows when they could turn on you right? I mean, it’s only the right thing to do for a monarch to ensure that everything in their country is run with their exacting permissions. If you can’t trust someone else to do it then you gotta do it yourself! Hey Zhaitan! Mind taking over the monarchy in Orr? We just aren’t omniscient enough to rule!
Hey what if that was what Khilbron was doing, making Zhaitan the ruler because only in the deranged mind of a lunatic is total physical and mental control of a population the overarching requirement of being fit to rule?
Also if the King has to be physically present for every little thing done by the government and citizens in the country, who in the world is actually running the country? Are they running themselves? No…that’s not right…what if they do something bad? Then it’s all the king’s fault for letting bad things happen.

Whelp…

I don’t know whether to weep or laugh at this anymore, probably should do both.
Your ideas are insane and they just keep on spiraling down as you try to defend them. There is no defending ridiculous ideas like that.

So then we have two situations.

We have Adlebern who watched as the charr destroyed his gates and flooded into his city. He saw his soldier fleeing and said, “NO! YOU WILL NOT RETREAT!” and then used a “giant nuke” to kill them all and force their spirits into servitude to his spirit. His actions slew his entire nation, but he is no better than this vile man.

We have King Reza. He had charr on his gates. They ate through what was left of his army and were readying a ritual to sear Orr much like they seared Ascalon. In this moment his most trusted adviser said there was possibly something to save them within the vaults, and this desperate man took the advise of his good friend and allowed him to search. What Khilbron found he said would save them all, and unlike a “good king” he trusted his friend and adviser. Then Khilbron destroyed the whole continent. It is obvious here that the most evil person in this situation is King Reza. I mean he condemned all of his people to death and undead servitude to the Lich Lord (aka Khilbron). Khilbron was an okay guy though, all of the evil is at King Reza’s feet!

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.
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Now for those of you that don’t know, this was sarcasm pointed at Korsbaek’s logic. It is obvious he is wrong, but he will not stop in proving himself right, so I will just take this last moment to say, he is wrong. I will not try and make him understand why, because it is not possible. I mean, by his logic if a murder ever happened with a Military weapon the president should be tried for murder…. WHAT?!?!?!? I’m sorry but no. Only the individual who committed the crime is to blame.

^And the weapons manufacturer selling their crap to every Joe Random walking in to buy guns. (By this logic, either the gods, Abaddon, or some other immortal being who might’ve written the Lost Scrolls should also be blamed.) But I digress…

Narcemus, I think you’re actually wrong there. I believe not even King Reza knew that Khilbron would go to the vaults to find some superior deus ex machina. It seems that the priest “caste” (or at least Grenth’s clergy – Keeper of the Temple, Cathedral of Silence story step) knew that the Vizier had a plan. Probably the royalty and the high-ranking military officers as well. But none of them was aware of what that plan entailed or from where he would gain the means to defeat the charr. The Prophecies manuscripts clearly states that Khilbron broke into the forbidden vaults beneath the golden streets of Arah. I actually believe most of Arah was still off limits to the civilians, only the high priests, priestesses, the favored/blessed, and the royalty had access to most of the city… but the vaults where the gods kept their dirty secrets and stuff? Nooo way the pious Orrians – not even the aforementioned groups – would dare to go in there.

How I think it happened: the Vizier believed that Abaddon was to redeem himself. He turned to his worship with Terick’s (Razakel, the demon) help. Through Terick, Abaddon informed him that there’s a means to end the charr threat without sheding Orrian blood (an utter lie), but it’s kept away inside Arah’s – again – forbidden vaults. The Vizier was overjoyed, he told everyone to keep calm and make a prayer, victory is on the way… while he fretted just how he was going to pull this off. During the chaos of the invasion, he sneaked in while all eyes and ears were focused on the encroaching charr army, then fled back to the seclusion of his tower to decipher the secrets of the scrolls. He got it working, without any knowledge of what he was reading, chanted it on an elated tone, then… blub blub blub (<- I know it was a nasty thing to do… I love the living Orrians, or at least their memory and I die a little inside every time when I see those majestic ruins or fight the maimed remains of these magically proficient, holy people… [though I hate their CC and teleport skills with a fiery passion.])

Also, I’d like to believe that Orr could’ve actually won had the Vizier not blown up the peninsula (@Narcemus and all others: Orr is/was a peninsula, maybe and island… but NOT a continent. That’s just another blunder from ANet’s part). The charr were hell bent on reaching Arah, so they skipped most of the temples and towns that did not stand in their way. I think the High Wizard was about to make a final stand at the Gates of Arah… all his soldiers and civilians that could fight, all skilled in the arcane arts, and then the favor and blessings of the Five Gods empowering all of them (not even mentioning their high priests in Arah – the ones whose risen form we fight in the Arah Seer path). They could’ve mustered a defense more than capable of halting and actually destroying the charr invasion force…. (We know the the Viziers of Orr were kind of like the Ministers of Defense – focusing on defensive magic… I guess the High Wizard was the supreme general of the Orrian army.)

One more thing: the charr were not even close to setting up a Searing ritual outside Arah, targeting the City of the Gods. However, there’s not one, but two cauldrons lying at the bottom of the straits around the Vizier’s tower. Food for thought… (Personally, I think the charr got wind of the Vizier’s insanity and they wanted to put a fiery, crystally end to it…)

I just wanna say something to those who mention “Orrian descendants”:
Wasn’t it stated way back when, in Prophecies namely, that Vizer TotallyNotEvil was the sole survivor of the sinking of Orr?

No, they’e made it clear that there are other Orrians. You cannot believe that everyone of Orrian descent was in the country at the time of war. There are merchants still, there had to have been a navy, and if I remember right there was mention of armies of Orrians in Ascalon and Kryta attempting to stop the fighting, part of the reason the Orrians were not able to stop the charr in their early offensives, if I remember right. Also, I do not recall calling Orr a continent, although if I made that mistake I apologize. As to the searing ritual, the range of effect was well large enough for them to have done some major damage to Arah from the Vizier’s tower, looking at the Area of Effect in Ascalon.

In my opinion, a cleansed Orr will be inhabited by several races of Tyria. It will turn into something similar to Lion’s Arch, a haven or a hub. Religious perspectives will not change despite of the Human Gods revisiting Orr; other races will perceive The Six as another entity.

frankly, if anything, the asura would be fascinated to examine the human gods up close. There was some interest in their place in the Eternal Alchemy back in EotN, but those were only aspects.

If they have to dissect a god though, I volunteer Kormir.

Elric.6971:

examine the human gods up close

Human gods aren’t actually in Tyria anymore…

Narcemus.1348:

As to the searing ritual, the range of effect was well large enough for them to have done some major damage to Arah from the Vizier’s tower, looking at the Area of Effect in Ascalon.

Based on a “cursor-and-eye” comparison I just made, even counting with a radius from Ironhead Lake to the Pockmark crystal and applying that to Orr, it would’ve at best grazed the northeastern outskirts of Arah (the river docks). Keep in mind that the Searing did not hit the entirety of Ascalon, most of it was focused on the Wall, Ascalon City, and Ashford… the damage was mostly due to “nuclear” fallout and the shamans burning down everything as they marched on south and towards Orr.

(Off-topic: It’s also possible that there were multiple Searings occuring after they’d broken down the Wall. We know that they couldn’t fully control the effects of the Searing for the first time, but what if they learned how to keep the cauldron’s power in check, and Seared the cities that had stood in their path with much less intensity – the destruction being near the size of the one dealt to the Cathedral of Verdance.)

Thalador.4218:

Also, I’d like to believe that Orr could’ve actually won had the Vizier not blown up the peninsula (@Narcemus and all others: Orr is/was a peninsula, maybe and island… but NOT a continent. That’s just another blunder from ANet’s part). The charr were hell bent on reaching Arah, so they skipped most of the temples and towns that did not stand in their way. I think the High Wizard was about to make a final stand at the Gates of Arah… all his soldiers and civilians that could fight, all skilled in the arcane arts, and then the favor and blessings of the Five Gods empowering all of them (not even mentioning their high priests in Arah – the ones whose risen form we fight in the Arah Seer path). They could’ve mustered a defense more than capable of halting and actually destroying the charr invasion force…. (We know the the Viziers of Orr were kind of like the Ministers of Defense – focusing on defensive magic… I guess the High Wizard was the supreme general of the Orrian army.)

I’d disagree on this part. Zhaitan seems to have been able to raise pretty much everyone who had ever died in Orr for at least as far back as Mazdak – the various champions we face, including the High Wizard, probably represent the best and brightest across Orrian history, not those who were available to fight the charr at the time of the Cataclysm.

That’s not to say that it was impossible for the Risen High Priest to have been preparing for an assault on Orr, but I agree, unless we get more information on the subject there’s always the possibility that the risen high priest had seen the gods themselves before they left for all we know.