Guild Wars 2

KarlaGrey.5903:

That is hardly an argument, given the fact bleed stacking isn’t exactly the main source of engi damage to start with.

Just saying you can’t change them the same way for both classes, unless it is how it procs obv

I will speak solely on conditions as I don’t play the Necromancer often enough to offer an informed decision on the class’ higher level play. I do know that when I do play it I’m aggrivated at how easily it’s trained down and the fact that there’s no way to get people off you in an emergency is poor class design. But if you’re saying it’s a L2P issue on my end, I can’t argue it.

Now that said, with conditions… their strength is the simple fact that they have 1 stat feeding into them. This is also their downfall as they tend to support an all-or-nothing playstyle (you either go all conditions or no conditions). What I feel they should do is simply cut condition damage accross the board by 30% but allow them to crit. This way you pull down the bunker builds some because they can’t just stack vitality/toughness, healing, and condition damage. You maintain an even level of condition damage (because I don’t necessarily find them overly strong damage wise right now for bleeds). And you allow classes a little more freedom in exploring other options when traiting.

Now as for burn, I also agree that it needs to go. Bleed should be the primary condition. Since poison and burn can’t be stacked they should probably both be utility oriented moreso than damage. Make both do 2x bleed damage like poison does, but change burn to a anti-stealth tool. A burning target will have revealed for example.

Keyon.3841:

Phantaram.1265:

Keyon.3841:

Well, the idea behind a necromancer is to get in the fight and either die or kill.

That`s why necros got high damage and as of the last patch good sustain. They nerfed the fear and I think they should adjust the overall damage of burning in the game which is too high in my opinion.

Besides that I think it`s pretty balanced.

Position is really important when it comes to necros because if we are not careful we can still be bursted down pretty quick.

When plague is on CD and we just died and have no Life Force we are very killable.
For me it makes sense that the more you fight a necro the harder it will be.
Hard CC and high burst are our weaknesses. Most necros have 1 break stun on their utility slots.

What you suggest is to nerf all condis in this game which is impossible.

You are correct that no life force = very easy to kill necro, but with the proper build you will be swimming in life force very fast. The build being 30/20/0/0/20 with spectral armor as a utility. Necros are by no means squishy and beyond that do glass cannon level damage on top of cc and control conditions.

And I actually didn’t suggest anything. So these imaginary suggestions you say I mentioned are definitely impossible considering they are imaginary.

You just said the damage is too high. That basicly means nerf the damage. If their going to nerf the damage they`ll need to nerf not just necro but all the condis of every class.

The trait has a CD and I don`t think that using a utility slot for spectral armor is really good. I think there are other utilities that do the job better or are better for your team.

If you think it`s op stop using it.

Let me give you an exemple:

Necros have condis that can be cleansed.
A backstab thief can hit up to 8-10 k.
A s/d thief have evades and great edurance regen and besides that they steal boons and still have a good damage output..
100b Warrior can hit up to 12 k in a couple of seconds.

Why do you cry so much about condis when that are other classes that make the same damage but way faster.

I suggest people to get more condi removal.

A diffrent aproach to dhuumfire or just nerfing the burning is a great too balance the “way too high damage” of necro.

You really don’t get it
a) backstab thief got a 8k burst, true, but all it takes is a dodge or an invulnerability to negate ALL that damage, and it’s usually on long cd/has a cost to it (4s revealed, initiative cost, etc.)
b) s/d thieves spams dodges, true, but it can’t dish all that damage on the whole team when fighting over small nodes (kyhlo’s clocktower, niflhel keep, etc..)
c) not even going to comment on warriors, lol…

the problem with necros, is that they do A kittenLOAD of damage, which is unavoidable unless cleansed (good luck cleansing 7-8 condis with the “I’ll let you cleanse a random condi instead of the last/first one”), has no easy-to-read animation (it’s not like warrior’s bull rush, for example) and is frigging aoe

Also, some classes CANNOT get all that condi removal…hell mesmers have no condi removals at all (guess which class recently disappeared from the meta)
Condition-heavy meta is broken, period.

KarlaGrey.5903:

That is hardly an argument, given the fact bleed stacking isn’t exactly the main source of engi damage to start with.

It is not but if you start to nerf other means of doing condition damage as an engineer they will start to look even worse compared to necromancers. Burning on engineer is fine and should stay as it is because they cannot reliably stack bleeds and therefore needs the amount of burning they have access to right now. Now necromancers have good access to burning, can stack 15-20 stacks of bleeding in a short amount of time, lengthy poison, torment and TERROR! All those conditions smacked together do an insane amount of burst and is what makes the necromancer over the top pressure wise at the moment. You cannot really compare necromancer and engineer condition pressure right now since necromancer just does it all way better and has more ways of cleansing plus transfers etc.

Well one way to fixing the damage problem of conditions (this isn’t a necro specific problem) is changing the way the condition damage stat works.

I guess, condition damage was never supposed to be the type of damage which kills people. I always appeared to be something to:

• Weakening them before delivering the finishing blow
• or get those last healthpoints down after an attack.

To achieve this, condition damage should scale differently.
Condition damage does not increase conditions as much as they do currently, but instead condition damage also increases the direct damage of skills just like power.
Just not as much as power.
This would make conditions cleanse much less important against damaging conditions, but on the same time, a cleansed stack of bleeding isn’t as bad for the condition damage dealer, as a significant part of the damage was dealt as direct damage.

• It would make a power+condition damage build a much better choice for medium sustained damage without alot of burst potentional.
• Condition damage dealers would have less of a problem against objects which cannot take condition damage (foefire doors or trebuchet for example), as they can also deal a good amount of direct damage.
• Toughness would become a defensive stat against any kind of damage dealer, though, still less effective against condition DDs.
• Hybrid weapons would become alot more useful (thief pistols or dagger/dagger thiefs; warrior sword)
• In PvE it would reduce the problem with condition overstacking a bit.

1/2 second cast time on marks so you cant faceroll the keyboard and put every condi on your target

Forsaker.9213:

This patch change our DS to be able take more dmg and this is very good , necro dont have disengage skills and lacks stability so i think the whole change is good and necro from deff site should look like this but ppl who are QQing that necro now can take every burst on DS need to remember one thing , condi necro have very very low acces to gain LF.

Low access to life force? I dunno man, with double spectral armor and soul marks I am drowning in life force.

After reading most of this thread I’m gonna say that most of you are underestimating how tanky the new Death Shroud is. Just so you know Spectral armor actually regenerates your Death Shroud while you are in it now, so if you attack a death shrouded necro with spectral armor on you are practically healing him.

shimmerless.4560:

Sol.4310:

Phantaram.1265:

I’ve played necro here and there since release but I’ve played necro at least 6 hours both today and yesterday and all in scrims with other good teams, so that is my experience on necro, just thought you guys should know that, moving on!

I’d like more experienced necromancers to comment on this but I feel like the necromancer playstyle is now in a pretty good spot. I can tank a really long time with deathshroud and it feels like that’s what a necromancer should be able to do since he can’t disengage. Instead of disengaging you press your deathshroud button and people go “oh, well lets attack something else.” Which if you have played with or against the right necromancer specs is exactly what goes through your brain when the necromancer pops a 100% deathshroud, heck even 50% deathshrouds.

For how tanky I am I do way too much dps though and also have insanely good support condis through tons of chill/poison/weakness etc. and this is where I want the community to come up with some ideas on how to get necromancer right.

For me the big thing that needs to happen is a damage reduction somehow, and a quite heavy one if you ask me. All the ideas I’ve seen and or have come up with I have seen some problems in so I won’t speak about what I think should happen because I’m not sure. I’ll leave it up to the community. So come on guys come up with something to reduce necromancer dps that fits well with where arena net is taking the necromancer.

Or if you disagree and necromancers need something else changed just say it, this is how I feel though.

TLDR; necromancers playstyle is cool with tankyness instead of disengaging but does too much damage on top of all their support and cc… and tankyness, come up with a way to reduce their damage in this thread. Or other tweaks you would like. Maybe necromancers are a little too tanky? They pretty much have everything but disengage right now so I’m open to any ideas.

Edit: As other damage in this game is nerfed though(as it should be), necromancer deathshroud will surely need to be decreased, but right now there is insane amounts of damage flying around so it strangely feels almost right, I just deal way too much damage on top of it.

You could take protection and more condition remove. No that’s silly. I know allot will hate on me for saying it, but you will find players will pack heaps of toughness over vita forgetting protection will easy make up for that loss of toughness, and having high vita pool with avg amount of condition remove will keep you in the fight.

protection has no effect on condis

Read before you type.

Shar.3402:

Keyon.3841:

Phantaram.1265:

Keyon.3841:

Well, the idea behind a necromancer is to get in the fight and either die or kill.

That`s why necros got high damage and as of the last patch good sustain. They nerfed the fear and I think they should adjust the overall damage of burning in the game which is too high in my opinion.

Besides that I think it`s pretty balanced.

Position is really important when it comes to necros because if we are not careful we can still be bursted down pretty quick.

When plague is on CD and we just died and have no Life Force we are very killable.
For me it makes sense that the more you fight a necro the harder it will be.
Hard CC and high burst are our weaknesses. Most necros have 1 break stun on their utility slots.

What you suggest is to nerf all condis in this game which is impossible.

You are correct that no life force = very easy to kill necro, but with the proper build you will be swimming in life force very fast. The build being 30/20/0/0/20 with spectral armor as a utility. Necros are by no means squishy and beyond that do glass cannon level damage on top of cc and control conditions.

And I actually didn’t suggest anything. So these imaginary suggestions you say I mentioned are definitely impossible considering they are imaginary.

You just said the damage is too high. That basicly means nerf the damage. If their going to nerf the damage they`ll need to nerf not just necro but all the condis of every class.

The trait has a CD and I don`t think that using a utility slot for spectral armor is really good. I think there are other utilities that do the job better or are better for your team.

If you think it`s op stop using it.

Let me give you an exemple:

Necros have condis that can be cleansed.
A backstab thief can hit up to 8-10 k.
A s/d thief have evades and great edurance regen and besides that they steal boons and still have a good damage output..
100b Warrior can hit up to 12 k in a couple of seconds.

Why do you cry so much about condis when that are other classes that make the same damage but way faster.

I suggest people to get more condi removal.

A diffrent aproach to dhuumfire or just nerfing the burning is a great too balance the “way too high damage” of necro.

You really don’t get it
a) backstab thief got a 8k burst, true, but all it takes is a dodge or an invulnerability to negate ALL that damage, and it’s usually on long cd/has a cost to it (4s revealed, initiative cost, etc.)
b) s/d thieves spams dodges, true, but it can’t dish all that damage on the whole team when fighting over small nodes (kyhlo’s clocktower, niflhel keep, etc..)
c) not even going to comment on warriors, lol…

the problem with necros, is that they do A kittenLOAD of damage, which is unavoidable unless cleansed (good luck cleansing 7-8 condis with the “I’ll let you cleanse a random condi instead of the last/first one”), has no easy-to-read animation (it’s not like warrior’s bull rush, for example) and is frigging aoe

Also, some classes CANNOT get all that condi removal…hell mesmers have no condi removals at all (guess which class recently disappeared from the meta)
Condition-heavy meta is broken, period.

With the right team comp and support conditions are far from broken. Solo’Que will always be hell no matter’s what vs conditions or burst. But Pre-made vs Pre-made its your own fault if your team gets owned by conditions.

For one there is so many ways to counter conditions but for some reason people would rather run a GC build with a low HP pool with next to no condition remove. Then complain about conditions being OP. How is it the condition teams problem, when clearly your team doesn’t take the right counter measure to handle conditions.

Each meta has it’s pro’s and con’s matter being smart about it, you can’t counter everything so counter the meta that hurts your team comp the most.

-Remove dhuumfire or reduce bleeding dmg
-Add a short animation and casttime for fear and make staff nr5 a cast with radius (giving the possibility to dodge)
-Give every staff mark a unique look (i want to know if i can it eat or dodge it)

Just give us to possibility to be skilled players by making the right decision when to dodge/evade or whatever… ty…

Sol.4310 is right.

It`s your own problem if your team gets owned by condis.

Everything can be countered and when it comes to condis it`s DOT and can be cleansed (15 bleeds gone in 1 sec).
Besides that you can focus the necro so that he can`t do damage while he is focused.
You know… it`s true, we have AOE but we also have CDs (most of them pretty big: 20, 25, 40), all our spells can be blocked/evaded and stability makes our cc useless.

Mesmers got no condi removal? Friend they have the best condi removal in this game, which is null field..

Phantaram… I think runing double spectral is such a bad idea, you get owned by condis.

djooceboxblast.9876:

snip

Djooce! good post. I love your suggestions and also agree that weakening dhuumfire to something not so crazy could open up the possibility for more builds like you said 0/30/10/0/30 or even 0/30/20/0/20 and people that still want maximum pressure could still use the weaker dhuumfire. (whatever it may be changed to)

Sol.4310:

With the right team comp and support conditions are far from broken. Solo’Que will always be hell no matter’s what vs conditions or burst. But Pre-made vs Pre-made its your own fault if your team gets owned by conditions.

For one there is so many ways to counter conditions but for some reason people would rather run a GC build with a low HP pool with next to no condition remove. Then complain about conditions being OP. How is it the condition teams problem, when clearly your team doesn’t take the right counter measure to handle conditions.

Each meta has it’s pro’s and con’s matter being smart about it, you can’t counter everything so counter the meta that hurts your team comp the most.

There is no way you can cleanse so many conditions, and apart from that, conditions are easily spamable, most of the times applied from range, in AoE effect. How hard is it to understand that ranged AoE skills can’t, and should’t ever be as strong as single target melee skills?

I’m running a warrior which removes 3 conditions after every burst skill I use(2 skills on 8 sec cd) + Berserker Stance and Signet of Stamina sometimes, and that’s still not enough. Meanwhile, many other professions have even lower condi removal, so you can imagine how awful dealing with conditions is. Also, you can’t really dodge conditions, unlike burst target attacks, and conditions are far more spamable than stronger power damage attacks.

Another problem is that in this meta, conditions actually kill faster than power damage, which shouldn’t work that way, since conditions are designed to wear your opponent down slowly, not kittening burst the target down(and necros can burst whole team pretty much). Currently, necros have huge survivability along with huge AOE damage. It’s not even single target, it’s AOE. And yes, I’m also playing a necro along with warrior(no, I didn’t create a necro because it’s OP), and I’d like to see a necro as attrition class, wearing opponents down slowly and PRESSURING opposing team, not BURSTING them down.

every time I enter this site and see a Newbie who writes that we must nerfare damage conditions, ok you want less damage conditions, also damage nerf dps thief, ele, mesmer, war.
the game will be balanced;)

zinavlad.7581:

every time I enter this site and see a Newbie who writes that we must nerfare damage conditions, ok you want less damage conditions, also damage nerf dps thief, ele, mesmer, war.
the game will be balanced;)

the Headline says:“Constructive necromancer thoughts”.

kkthxbye

Phantaram.1265:

djooceboxblast.9876:

snip

Djooce! good post. I love your suggestions and also agree that weakening dhuumfire to something not so crazy could open up the possibility for more builds like you said 0/30/10/0/30 or even 0/30/20/0/20 and people that still want maximum pressure could still use the weaker dhuumfire. (whatever it may be changed to)

I would even suggest removing dhuumfire from spite and adding it to curses (master or grand master) while (maybe) changing it to torment instead of burning. One would lose the condition duration from spite, balancing the current condition pressure of the necromancer severely, but instead get another unique condition to
cover for the main damage source (bleeds). You would still be able to get a good amount of bleed duration from curses (hemophilia, lingering curse) or even runes and not lose a lot of damage if able to keep your stacks on target. The spite tree just fits way too well with all of the ways a condition necromancer does damage and even includes chill of death (boon strip and chill + good damage) which is a very powerful master trait.

zinavlad.7581:

every time I enter this site and see a Newbie who writes that we must nerfare damage conditions, ok you want less damage conditions, also damage nerf dps thief, ele, mesmer, war.
the game will be balanced;)

And I suppose you’re the best player to ever grace us with his experience, right?
Also, lol@asking for nerfs to warriors -.-

djooceboxblast.9876:

Phantaram.1265:

djooceboxblast.9876:

snip

Djooce! good post. I love your suggestions and also agree that weakening dhuumfire to something not so crazy could open up the possibility for more builds like you said 0/30/10/0/30 or even 0/30/20/0/20 and people that still want maximum pressure could still use the weaker dhuumfire. (whatever it may be changed to)

I would even suggest removing dhuumfire from spite and adding it to curses (master or grand master) while (maybe) changing it to torment instead of burning. One would lose the condition duration from spite, balancing the current condition pressure of the necromancer severely, but instead get another unique condition to
cover for the main damage source (bleeds). You would still be able to get a good amount of bleed duration from curses (hemophilia, lingering curse) or even runes and not lose a lot of damage if able to keep your stacks on target. The spite tree just fits way too well with all of the ways a condition necromancer does damage and even includes chill of death (boon strip and chill + good damage) which is a very powerful master trait.

I think dhuumfire is fine there in Spite, however burning has no reason to be a necromancer’s condition, and replacing it with torment could be a nice idea (like 3 stacks of torment for 4s, with 10s icd? don’t know, I’ll let others balance that stuff :p) and would “fit the class”

Krilce.7864:

Sol.4310:

With the right team comp and support conditions are far from broken. Solo’Que will always be hell no matter’s what vs conditions or burst. But Pre-made vs Pre-made its your own fault if your team gets owned by conditions.

For one there is so many ways to counter conditions but for some reason people would rather run a GC build with a low HP pool with next to no condition remove. Then complain about conditions being OP. How is it the condition teams problem, when clearly your team doesn’t take the right counter measure to handle conditions.

Each meta has it’s pro’s and con’s matter being smart about it, you can’t counter everything so counter the meta that hurts your team comp the most.

There is no way you can cleanse so many conditions, and apart from that, conditions are easily spamable, most of the times applied from range, in AoE effect. How hard is it to understand that ranged AoE skills can’t, and should’t ever be as strong as single target melee skills?

I’m running a warrior which removes 3 conditions after every burst skill I use(2 skills on 8 sec cd) + Berserker Stance and Signet of Stamina sometimes, and that’s still not enough. Meanwhile, many other professions have even lower condi removal, so you can imagine how awful dealing with conditions is. Also, you can’t really dodge conditions, unlike burst target attacks, and conditions are far more spamable than stronger power damage attacks.

Another problem is that in this meta, conditions actually kill faster than power damage, which shouldn’t work that way, since conditions are designed to wear your opponent down slowly, not kittening burst the target down(and necros can burst whole team pretty much). Currently, necros have huge survivability along with huge AOE damage. It’s not even single target, it’s AOE. And yes, I’m also playing a necro along with warrior(no, I didn’t create a necro because it’s OP), and I’d like to see a necro as attrition class, wearing opponents down slowly and PRESSURING opposing team, not BURSTING them down.

I don’t understand where you got your fact’s from. Did you know most condition heavy team’s almost all there stacking skills are single target, did you know you can dodge mark’s, did you know there AoE come’s from a smart player using epidemic.

Necro’s really don’t have that much AoE most of the AoE your talking about is from people getting stacked with condition’s for ages then the necro uses epidemic. It’s not hard to understand if your fighting a condition necro watch mark’s and watch for that condition stack. It’s really that simple.

Conditions take time to kill there target where as Burst can insta gib someone in a second.

I can understand how limited some builds are for condition remove, and this is why we play spvp. So we have the support to make our build stronger.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

djooceboxblast.9876:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

The main part of necro being over the top dmg-wise are the marks. You can compare that to Grenades from the HGH. But without any counter to it (projectile-reflection), nor does the necro need skill to place them. They are instant (no travelling of procteile whatsoever), they are unblockable, when not triggered they remain on ground and the area of these marks are horendous. Marks are one of the main reasons why necro doesn’t require any skill at all. While grenades required you to predict the movement (also the area was slightly smaller) they had also an obvious animation, where ppl could actually dodge them. This part of depth is lost with marks in place. You can predict them but nothing else. Animation of it is not obvious and look all the same.

You clearly have little to no idea of what makes the necromancer over the top. Marks are not the problem and do not do the same amount of damage as grenades and with the newest patch most necro’s wont have unblockable marks. The marks have an extremely high cd and can not really be compared to grenades. If you make marks have a travel time like grenades then missing a mark will be way too risky. An engineers grenades have a very short cd and a miss wont be as crushing as if a necromancer misses putrid or reapers mark. And if you think the marks are so easy to hit, why do i see so many necromancers who are considered good miss mark by mark on their streams (even with greater marks)? With this said, i do agree with you that the marks need some kinda differentiation to their casting animations or visuals, so people can actually see and know what they are dodging.

Marks provde non-skilled play, as every other AoE that has no dedicated animation and is instantly in place after the cast. This denies a lot of depth to the gameplay and the class itself. Furthermore it doesn’t require any skill to be effective.
DPS-wise you’re right, the problem relies more in traits.

But marks do have animations and cast times. And really long cd’s.

Someone’s build is going to be ruined no matter what they do with Terror, whether they move it up in the trait line or outright nerf it. It’s still necessary for the game.

Besides, the game needs to be balanced around the top builds first.

Moving Terror 30 points into Curses sounds like the best solution for the class.

Dhuumfire is not a good source for a nerf. The reason Dhuumfire was added is because necromancers previously relied on engineers for condition coverage. Dhuumfire was given to the class to make it more independent, which directly addressed a problem every high-rated necromancer complained about before.

Now, Dhuumfire could be changed to three stacks of torment or two or three seconds of burning. But I think people are both misunderstanding why burning was given to necromancers in the first place and overestimating how strong burning’s damage is in group situations.

Lopez.7369:

Someone’s build is going to be ruined no matter what they do with Terror, whether they move it up in the trait line or outright nerf it. It’s still necessary for the game.

Besides, the game needs to be balanced around the top builds first.

Moving Terror 30 points into Curses sounds like the best solution for the class.

Dhuumfire is not a good source for a nerf. The reason Dhuumfire was added is because necromancers previously relied on engineers for condition coverage. Dhuumfire was given to the class to make it more independent, which directly addressed a problem every high-rated necromancer complained about before.

Now, Dhuumfire could be changed to three stacks of torment or two or three seconds of burning. But I think people are both misunderstanding why burning was given to necromancers in the first place and overestimating how strong burning’s damage is in group situations.

But why do they target terror. Terror is a unique and fun class mechanic. Why nerf it just because of burning? Just nerf the dam burning trait.

If they nerf terror necro will just be a boring condi spam class like hgh was before thieves. Nerf the burning and give me back old terror.If they continue to nerf everything but dhumfire them build diversity will not exist at all

I explained why in that post: Burning is necessary for coverage in the condition metagame. Before the big patch, necromancers constantly complained that they needed an engineer attached to the hip because the engineer’s vulnerability and burning helped provide much-needed coverage for bleeds, which were at the time the only source of good damage for necromancers outside of fears.

Maybe Dhuumfire is still a bit too strong. I’d be OK with changing it to three stacks of torment or making the burning last 2 or 3 seconds. But people seem to be forgetting why Dhuumfire was added in the first place.

Moving Terror 30 points into Curses and effectively making people choose between Terror, Dhuumfire and more survivability would actually encourage build diversity. Think of the possibilities: If a necromancer had a condition engineer in his group, he could go 20/30/0/0/20 or 0/30/20/0/20 to retain some survivability and maximize fear. If he had good peels, he could go 30/30/0/0/10 to focus entirely on damage. If he had neither, then 30/20/0/0/20 will always be well-rounded. That’s much better build diversity than currently available and provides much-needed nerfs.

Krilce.7864:

Sol.4310:

With the right team comp and support conditions are far from broken. Solo’Que will always be hell no matter’s what vs conditions or burst. But Pre-made vs Pre-made its your own fault if your team gets owned by conditions.

For one there is so many ways to counter conditions but for some reason people would rather run a GC build with a low HP pool with next to no condition remove. Then complain about conditions being OP. How is it the condition teams problem, when clearly your team doesn’t take the right counter measure to handle conditions.

Each meta has it’s pro’s and con’s matter being smart about it, you can’t counter everything so counter the meta that hurts your team comp the most.

There is no way you can cleanse so many conditions, and apart from that, conditions are easily spamable, most of the times applied from range, in AoE effect. How hard is it to understand that ranged AoE skills can’t, and should’t ever be as strong as single target melee skills?

I’m running a warrior which removes 3 conditions after every burst skill I use(2 skills on 8 sec cd) + Berserker Stance and Signet of Stamina sometimes, and that’s still not enough. Meanwhile, many other professions have even lower condi removal, so you can imagine how awful dealing with conditions is. Also, you can’t really dodge conditions, unlike burst target attacks, and conditions are far more spamable than stronger power damage attacks.

Another problem is that in this meta, conditions actually kill faster than power damage, which shouldn’t work that way, since conditions are designed to wear your opponent down slowly, not kittening burst the target down(and necros can burst whole team pretty much). Currently, necros have huge survivability along with huge AOE damage. It’s not even single target, it’s AOE. And yes, I’m also playing a necro along with warrior(no, I didn’t create a necro because it’s OP), and I’d like to see a necro as attrition class, wearing opponents down slowly and PRESSURING opposing team, not BURSTING them down.

You’re doing it wrong if you’re running decent condition removal and you’re getting burst down by condi damage. Maybe stop cleansing blinds and just autoattack it off. Or bring a stunbreak. Or stop blowing your cleanse on 2 stacks of bleed.

Thats an odd argument. Burning is the condition with the highest damage output…if you want to get coverage this trait could also apply 2 Stacks of Confusion, or 5s of weakness or 3 stacks of bleeding…
The burning trait is stupid simply because there is no way for counterplay. Everybody hates it on Engi’s and now also on Necros. First thing after the necro crit is that you have to cleanse…and after the cleanse he starts to apply all the other kitten. This trait was nowhere near necessary.

At the poster above: Yeah its not like that there is a priority list for cleansing…I will tell you no condi remove in the whole game is enough to get rid of the pressure…period! Simply because Condi Spam by autoattacks and stupid traits is out of control. When you get pressured by 10 stacks of bleeding, burning, torment you simply dont wait until chill or poison is gone…you cleanse.

Sol.4310:

I don’t understand where you got your fact’s from. Did you know most condition heavy team’s almost all there stacking skills are single target, did you know you can dodge mark’s, did you know there AoE come’s from a smart player using epidemic.

Necro’s really don’t have that much AoE most of the AoE your talking about is from people getting stacked with condition’s for ages then the necro uses epidemic. It’s not hard to understand if your fighting a condition necro watch mark’s and watch for that condition stack. It’s really that simple.

Conditions take time to kill there target where as Burst can insta gib someone in a second.

I can understand how limited some builds are for condition remove, and this is why we play spvp. So we have the support to make our build stronger.

Mate, I’m playing a necromancer myself, I do know what I’m talking about. Epidemic isn’t even needed anymore. You can’t really say marks can be dodged easily since :
1) All have the same animation, which means you don’t even know what you are dodging, and what you should dodge. Also, they are instant travel, just like scepter autoattack for example, which makes them even harder to dodge.
2) Most necros will put marks directly on your head, which means that dodgin marks on the ground won’t really be an option. In team fights, someone is bound to get hit by your mark.
3) You’ll rarely fight necros in 1v1, so you won’t really be able to see what he is doing, while there are other guys from his team keeping you occupied/defending their necro.

Only burning is single target. Stack 2 necros, and you are getting insane condi pressure on whole team. Epidemic isn’t even used all that much currently, because there is no need to, and it’s quite easy to incorporate it into your utility bar anyways. If you look at necro’s skills, 90% that apply conditions are basically AoE or multi target hit, and pretty much all of them are ranged.

Mammoth.1975:

You’re doing it wrong if you’re running decent condition removal and you’re getting burst down by condi damage. Maybe stop cleansing blinds and just autoattack it off. Or bring a stunbreak. Or stop blowing your cleanse on 2 stacks of bleed.

Even full condi cleanse builds can’t keep up with the amount of conditions that can be applied in mere seconds. Guess that’s why everybody is running full condi team comps mate.

Krilce.7864:

Even full condi cleanse builds can’t keep up with the amount of conditions that can be applied in mere seconds. Guess that’s why everybody is running full condi team comps mate.

Once again, if you can clear 3 conditions every 20-30 seconds, a water ele can clear all the damaging conditions from your whole team every 10 seconds, keeping bleed stacks to about 5. If you think you should be able to be permanently clean and utterly nullify condition builds, I have news for you.

If you really can’t handle the massive 600-800 dps the necro is left with, you could always bring a second team cleanser. That’s if you don’t already have a shout guard, which would be odd. He’s not mobile enough to be hitting far, so your guard should be there to clean you every time you see him. Between a shout guard and water ele who are competent enough to cleanse properly instead of spamming randomly, necros do about nothing.

With the corrupt boon nerf I can tank 3 necros all kittening day on my guard if I have a water ele around. Quite literally, and I have like 40 hours /played on it.

The QQ brigade is led by:
engis who don’t want competition for the condi spot,
thieves who are mad that warriors can do something better than them,
eles who can’t give up air bursts,
guards who are dying because their ele can’t give up air bursts,

and the ranks of the brigade are filled with puggers and 1v1 heroes.

HPLT.7132:

Thats an odd argument. Burning is the condition with the highest damage output…if you want to get coverage this trait could also apply 2 Stacks of Confusion, or 5s of weakness or 3 stacks of bleeding…
The burning trait is stupid simply because there is no way for counterplay. Everybody hates it on Engi’s and now also on Necros. First thing after the necro crit is that you have to cleanse…and after the cleanse he starts to apply all the other kitten. This trait was nowhere near necessary.

It’s not an odd argument at all. It was a widely accepted point before everyone began freaking out about condition necromancers being too strong.

Coverage isn’t just about having another condition on there. The extra damage is necessary too. Condition necromancers relied way too much on bleeds in the past.

With that said, the burning could easily be changed to three stacks of torment.

How about adding a trigger delay to marks?

Advent Leader.1083:

How about adding a trigger delay to marks?

That would make them useless.

The focus on marks is weird. Scepter/dagger does more damage, even in AOE situations.

Unbiased as an ele main who hates full water can be about condition classes.

I have said this on many threads and feel it needs to be said again. The addition of dhuumfire has completely borked the condimancer and tPvP along with it. Before a necro had good condi pressure and had to coordinate with other classes to stack bleeds/burns/poisons for a good epi that could cause chaos and mayhem. At that point we were rare in the meta, and a good necromancer was recognized as something that took skill and coordination. But with the buffs to weakness, the addition of terror and torment, the necromancer would have been put in a very strong place without burning. Like I’ve said before, burning on a necromancer basically is a statement that to be “viable” or meta worthy your condi pressure must have burning. It pushes engis and rangers out of the meta and the builds take 0 skill or timing to play. the larger marks and nerf to terror have now made the burning condi build the only meta necromancer who can stand his ground and that is incredibly upsetting seeing as we are losing unique flair for a trait copied from engi’s. Dhuumfire hasn’t (in tPvP) become a tool for hybrid builds or increased diversity, in essence balancing around it has actually limited diversity by a wide margin. The ability to put 20 into SR while still keeping the 30/20/ was actually a very substantial buff to their sustain and the small terror nerf essentially does nothing to bring them inline. If we removed Dhuumfire, kept our other changes and were allowed small and strategic ways to apply torment to a weapon set or two we would be a lot better off.

Few Suggestions:

Remove Dhuumfire

Keep corrupt at 5 boons converted, but change all condi conversion skills to work the same (only converts 5 condi’s into boons to keep things in-line, similar to the 1 sec ICD from spectral skills)

Add to scepter three: apply 1 stack of torment per condition on the target (as well the LF already gained)

Dagger #4 Deathly Swarm: add a 2% LF gain per target hit with the transfer

Change the Blast finisher on poison fields to inflict 2-3 stacks of torment instead of weakness (this change would also have potential to give condi thieves a little more dmg as well as bring down our weakness application which I know Jon is worried about)

Keep all changes from the last patch save the 17% terror nerf, this would bring condi builds up to their previous point with a small dmg buff but a large amount more sustain which is what the community originally wanted.

I know several of you have become very attached to burning, but you cannot discount the strengths of our control condi’s which have always been our unique strength. Burning (for me at least) feels like a step in the direction of homogenizing the professions which have driven me away from countless other games. With the changes to DS and LF regen, weakness in its new form, lower CDs on certain utilities, we are getting most of what we needed to stay in the fight (there a few things that would still be nice). The GC damage is too much and is not how condi is intended, that is for power builds. Also, as a necro we have two many “cover conditions” (poison, chill, weakness, torment, cripple, blind, essentially fear) to have burning and bleeding, the two highest dmg conditions in game.

EDIT: smart necros already had access to burning pre-dhuumfire through transfers, corrupts, and epi (our condition duration and dmg is used for all of those skills). It was skillful, unique, and made us feel like condi masters without an easy chance on proc no-thought-needed trait. Either we lose dhuumfire or more unique cool aspects of the profession will have to be shaved down and “brought in line”.

Remove or change dhuumfire.
Activates when the target is <50% hp or just replace it with something else to tone the damage.

Thesilentflute.8761:

1/2 second cast time on marks so you cant faceroll the keyboard and put every condi on your target

They already have a 3/4 second cast time.

Also, as a necromancer, I agree with everyone in this thread about removing Dhuumfire. It wasn’t needed. Necromancers did not need more damage. We needed better survivability.

The development process seems to be going backwards with this class. “Oh, you’re having a survivability problem? Lets add moar damage! What? Doing to much damage now? Ok, lets nerf two traits that existed in their current state since forever and was never OP to begin with while leaving the broken trait alone. That will fix it!”

I can’t stress this enough to you developers. Go to the necro boards. Read the threads there (I know Jon Peters does every once in a while, but the rest of you seriously need to spend more time there. There is a serious detachment with what you think is happening and what is actually happening with this class it seems). The seemingly unanimous voice on the necro forum is that no one even wanted Dhuumfire. No one wants Dhuumfire. We do not understand why you gave it to us in the first place. Most of us, if not all of us, want you to get rid of this stupid trait so you can stop nerfing our pre-existing non-broken traits. Get rid of Dhuumfire! It was a bad idea! Its ok to be wrong and reverse decisions, but for the love of god stop nerfing everything else we have because of it!

I don’t even understand this development process you guys have. You guys ruined my old build. 0/30/10/0/30. I wasn’t even using Dhuumfire. I never wanted to use it, but now I can’t do what I’ve always been doing because Greater Marks is one tier higher. I’ve quickly discovered that having blockable marks is pretty terrible. I want my old build back that was never cried about or considered OP in the slightest.

I think the biggest problem is the proper balance between effort and reward. Something that applies to some other classes aswell.

Bursting someone down is fine as long as it requires some proper setup. Killing someone with condis within a relatively short timeframe is fine as long as its not just the autoattack or any other random button.

Marks are fine if they wouldve been a bit smaller Making marks unblockable and have them cover pretty much an entire platform is just dumb. Its pretty much impossible to miss. If i was a dev i would reduce the size to the old untraited marks. And change improved marks to something else; like a temporary boon when you hit your marks or w/e.

People should get rewarded for playing good, for timing their abbilities. etc. Not just run in cover the entire centre of a map with marks and pop deathshroud + roll your face across the keyboard. I think we all had moments like this:

I was playing a hotjoin in spiritwatch on my semi bunker build ranger. At one point i was 1v1ing vs another ranger at “bear”. Just before the ranger died a warrior showed up and the ranger used the roots elite. I ended being stuck and at 70% HP with regen on myself. I moved away from the point and out of los of any potential inc players just before he used the elite.

Two seconds later a necro rushes in deathshrouds tainted shackles + life transfer and doom on the warrior. The warrior died quite fast while i was stuck semi out of los of the guy.

I had like 2000 HP left at the end and the necro never knew i was there even. So he “bursted” me from quite a few yards away without even knowing it.

Two ideas to help balance condition pressure:
1. Change dhuumfire to proc chill instead of burning – I know this is controversial and know that I am not the first one to propose it but posted a thread in the necromancer forum to discuss the pros/cons of a change like this

2. Make Close to Death apply only to direct damage and not condition damage. Do the same for thieves executioner

close to death already only works on direct damage.

Sepreh.5924:

2. Make Close to Death apply only to direct damage and not condition damage. Do the same for thieves executioner

That’s a great idea. This thread is so relevant.

reedju.5786:

close to death already only works on direct damage.

Sorry, I wasnt aware that this was the case. Never formally tested it and whether it works on condition damage is not explict on the wiki

Sepreh.5924:

Two ideas to help balance condition pressure:
1. Change dhuumfire to proc chill instead of burning – I know this is controversial and know that I am not the first one to propose it but posted a thread in the necromancer forum to discuss the pros/cons of a change like this

2. Make Close to Death apply only to direct damage and not condition damage. Do the same for thieves executioner

They don’t work on condition damage lol wtf.
They’re direct damage boosts. Same with the elementalist 33% health dmg buff.
Condition damage is unaffected by %dmg modifiers.

ensoriki.5789:

Sepreh.5924:

Two ideas to help balance condition pressure:
1. Change dhuumfire to proc chill instead of burning – I know this is controversial and know that I am not the first one to propose it but posted a thread in the necromancer forum to discuss the pros/cons of a change like this

2. Make Close to Death apply only to direct damage and not condition damage. Do the same for thieves executioner

They don’t work on condition damage lol wtf.
They’re direct damage boosts. Same with the elementalist 33% health dmg buff.
Condition damage is unaffected by %dmg modifiers.

Haha then I take away that suggestion and keep the first. No need to vulture a suggestion when it wasnt clear how it worked

Keyon.3841:

Well, the idea behind a necromancer is to get in the fight and either die or kill.

That`s why necros got high damage and as of the last patch good sustain. They nerfed the fear and I think they should adjust the overall damage of burning in the game which is too high in my opinion.

Besides that I think it`s pretty balanced.

Position is really important when it comes to necros because if we are not careful we can still be bursted down pretty quick.

When plague is on CD and we just died and have no Life Force we are very killable.
For me it makes sense that the more you fight a necro the harder it will be.
Hard CC and high burst are our weaknesses. Most necros have 1 break stun on their utility slots.

What you suggest is to nerf all condis in this game which is impossible.

I don’t think that all classes that use burning have as big of an overdps issue as necros, so no burning should not be nerfed for everybody.

Just make dhuumfire only able to trigger once every 15-20 seconds.

reedju.5786:

I have said this on many threads and feel it needs to be said again. The addition of dhuumfire has completely borked the condimancer and tPvP along with it. Before a necro had good condi pressure and had to coordinate with other classes to stack bleeds/burns/poisons for a good epi that could cause chaos and mayhem. At that point we were rare in the meta, and a good necromancer was recognized as something that took skill and coordination. But with the buffs to weakness, the addition of terror and torment, the necromancer would have been put in a very strong place without burning. Like I’ve said before, burning on a necromancer basically is a statement that to be “viable” or meta worthy your condi pressure must have burning. It pushes engis and rangers out of the meta and the builds take 0 skill or timing to play. the larger marks and nerf to terror have now made the burning condi build the only meta necromancer who can stand his ground and that is incredibly upsetting seeing as we are losing unique flair for a trait copied from engi’s. Dhuumfire hasn’t (in tPvP) become a tool for hybrid builds or increased diversity, in essence balancing around it has actually limited diversity by a wide margin. The ability to put 20 into SR while still keeping the 30/20/ was actually a very substantial buff to their sustain and the small terror nerf essentially does nothing to bring them inline. If we removed Dhuumfire, kept our other changes and were allowed small and strategic ways to apply torment to a weapon set or two we would be a lot better off.

Few Suggestions:

Remove Dhuumfire

Keep corrupt at 5 boons converted, but change all condi conversion skills to work the same (only converts 5 condi’s into boons to keep things in-line, similar to the 1 sec ICD from spectral skills)

Add to scepter three: apply 1 stack of torment per condition on the target (as well the LF already gained)

Dagger #4 Deathly Swarm: add a 2% LF gain per target hit with the transfer

Change the Blast finisher on poison fields to inflict 2-3 stacks of torment instead of weakness (this change would also have potential to give condi thieves a little more dmg as well as bring down our weakness application which I know Jon is worried about)

Keep all changes from the last patch save the 17% terror nerf, this would bring condi builds up to their previous point with a small dmg buff but a large amount more sustain which is what the community originally wanted.

I know several of you have become very attached to burning, but you cannot discount the strengths of our control condi’s which have always been our unique strength. Burning (for me at least) feels like a step in the direction of homogenizing the professions which have driven me away from countless other games. With the changes to DS and LF regen, weakness in its new form, lower CDs on certain utilities, we are getting most of what we needed to stay in the fight (there a few things that would still be nice). The GC damage is too much and is not how condi is intended, that is for power builds. Also, as a necro we have two many “cover conditions” (poison, chill, weakness, torment, cripple, blind, essentially fear) to have burning and bleeding, the two highest dmg conditions in game.

EDIT: smart necros already had access to burning pre-dhuumfire through transfers, corrupts, and epi (our condition duration and dmg is used for all of those skills). It was skillful, unique, and made us feel like condi masters without an easy chance on proc no-thought-needed trait. Either we lose dhuumfire or more unique cool aspects of the profession will have to be shaved down and “brought in line”.

Yeah, it was sooooo much fun being a free kill to dd eles because my conditions were getting cleansed 24/7 before I got cover conditions!

timidobserver.7925:

Keyon.3841:

Well, the idea behind a necromancer is to get in the fight and either die or kill.

That`s why necros got high damage and as of the last patch good sustain. They nerfed the fear and I think they should adjust the overall damage of burning in the game which is too high in my opinion.

Besides that I think it`s pretty balanced.

Position is really important when it comes to necros because if we are not careful we can still be bursted down pretty quick.

When plague is on CD and we just died and have no Life Force we are very killable.
For me it makes sense that the more you fight a necro the harder it will be.
Hard CC and high burst are our weaknesses. Most necros have 1 break stun on their utility slots.

What you suggest is to nerf all condis in this game which is impossible.

I don’t think that all classes that use burning have as big of an overdps issue as necros, so no burning should not be nerfed for everybody.

Just make dhuumfire only able to trigger once every 15-20 seconds.

It has to be removed…the first tick is the worst because this is the one he is using for his condi burst and after that you are not able to recover… Even 30-45 seconds wouldnt make any difference because the first 1 you simple cant dodge and after that all he needs is bleeds to drain you down.

Zenith.7301:

Yeah, it was sooooo much fun being a free kill to dd eles because my conditions were getting cleansed 24/7 before I got cover conditions!

I refer you to this https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.twitch.tv%2Fsymbollix%2Fc%2F2622702

Also, with access to torment on staff and scepter along with the sustain they are giving us you will actually be harder to kill and have less issue getting bleeding to stick. Burning isn’t a good “cover condition” because you don’t have any idea or control over when it is going to proc. Often it will proc before your bleeds giving you 0 cover as the last condi applied is the first removed

EDIT: Fear, Chillblains, Tainted Shackles are all good examples of skillful ways to cover bleeds

I think making Protection affect condition damage and/or life stealing could be a step in the right direction, but it would mostly just help guardians and elementalists. If Protection was also made more available to warriors, thieves, and engineers, we might have a viable solution without having to nerf necromancers.

Another thought: Fear shouldn’t disable non-weapon skills that can be used while moving.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey all, just wanted to let you know that we’re watching this thread closely.

Really appreciate the constructive feedback, particularly yours, Phantaram. You seem to be analyzing from a very objective and unbiased point of view, which is very helpful.

As for the subject at hand, I don’t have anything to remark about it because we’re still wanting to see more constructive, unbiased feedback. We’ll continue to observe matches today to determine if any immediate action is necessary.

See what you did ppl?Allie just missed another lunch for us….
Dont worry Allie i got your back,ill have my grandmother make a pie for you,she probably can make 40 different types of pies but i think you Americans like applepies more

Weakness is also a HUGE issue and Necro’s happen to be the biggest appliers of the condition.

Post buff weakness would, at most, reduce over all DPS by 25% on a player with a 0% crit rate. This ofcoarse wasn’t good as most direct damage builds could get 30-50% crit chance with ease making the over all damage reduction some where between 17.5-12.5% if not worse (assuming 200% crit damage).

Post buff weakness reduces DPS by 25% AT A MINIMUM. The problem is that you can not get a critical hit and glancing blow at the same time and glancings now take priority. If the hit was going to be a crit but glances instead now you deal 1/4 the damage you would have done, a 75% reduction. It’s WAY to much. Again lets look at someone with 30-50% crit chance and 200% crit damage. Someone with 30% crit chance gets a 29% DPS recuction and someone with a 50% crit gets a 31% DPS reduction (not including gains from on-crits).

Nothing in the game can grant such a huge DPS increase. The only thing that would be close would be quickness, but the upkeep on quickness was is not nearly long enough to compete in the long run. 25 stacks of vun can’t even match it, and 25 stacks of vun is much harder to apply and upkeep than weakness.

Not only is the reduction too much, but it just adds another, very impactful, level of RNG to combat. Did my tripple hit phoenix crit? Did it not? Did all 3 hits glancing? Would those glancing his been crits? It’s terrible and makes it nearly impossible to make good judgment calls when you have weakness on you.

There are several ways to fix this, but something needs to be done.

I suggest making it a flat 15-25% damage reduction to reduce the RNG.

Or, as it was stated that they wanted weakness to counter crit builds. Make it so glancings ONLY effect crits, and reduce them to base damage at 50% chance. As it stands there isn’t a lot of thought behind weakness, you see a build that revoles around dirrect damage and you slap weakness on it. Before, if you used weakness on a high crit target it did next to nothing, there should be some form of counter play.

Lastly you could just reduce the reduction to 33% and reduce some of the weakness durrations.

As it stands weakness is a huge issue and it only compounding necro balance issues.

Mammoth.1975:

Unbiased as an ele main who hates full water can be about condition classes.

In my opinion, a bunker elementalist overloaded with condition cleansing is worse at countering the condi-spam necros than a glass cannon.

The improvements given outside of Dhuumfire should be enough.
If condi variety is that necessary put a confusion when critically hit trait instead like the warriors retaliation trait so that the necro isn’t blowing you up straight out of the box.