Guild Wars 2

DiogoSilva.7089:

Mammoth.1975:

Unbiased as an ele main who hates full water can be about condition classes.

In my opinion, a bunker elementalist overloaded with condition cleansing is worse at countering the condi-spam necros than a glass cannon.

That’s nice. Never played a necro huh?

I think the best way is to rework the passive traits into something more active, that require a specific utility type, skill sequence or similar. Something that can be visually predictable, where it’s possible to react to or counter. The same applies to the really powerful perma-vigor traits.

I’ll use GW1’s dhuum skills as an inspiration to change dhuumfire:
- Applies 1s of burning to nearby foes when health drops to 75%, 50% and 25%
(Requires being hit, can be countered at range);
- Alternatively, just have the trait apply a Fire Aura on himself. Why not? It’s easier to counter, as it’s visually expressive and will require a conditional effect to spec. It can be stronger in certain situations (aoe burning spread, might-stacking), while being easier to deal with. Besides, fire aura makes far more sense in high-hp + DS necromancers than it does in evade-dependent elementalists;
- Summon a dhuum minion that can apply 1s of burning over time. (Can be targetted and destroyed);
- Make it work like a GW1’s touch skill: can only be activated at melee range. This means necro players will have to decide between being at 1200 range safety, or going melee to maximize their damage;
- Applies burning on moving foes or on non-moving foes. Has interesting synergy with torment, although maybe it’s too close to it.

Mammoth.1975:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Mammoth.1975:

Unbiased as an ele main who hates full water can be about condition classes.

In my opinion, a bunker elementalist overloaded with condition cleansing is worse at countering the condi-spam necros than a glass cannon.

That’s nice. Never played a necro huh?

No. That was entirely from an elementalist’s point of view.

Burning is just simply too much.

The problem is that the Devs decided it was better to give us a massive amount of damage and THEN fixing DS instead of the opposite. Honestly if they had just fixed DS in the big balance patch I would have been very happy.

Burning needs to be changed to something that supports the power builds not something that is so valuable that condi necros HAVE to spend 30 points into a tree for very little other than it (Seriously, if burning wasn’t a GM trait there would be almost 0 reason to going into Spite for condimancers).

This isn’t really a problem that is specific to necros either because burning is just so ridiculously powerful. It turns attrition (Which is what conditions should be about) into burst for every class that has it.

Personally I feel burning needs to be brought down a bit, perhaps make it deal less damage per tick but have a longer duration across the board. This would bring it in line with the attrition nature of conditions but be much more manageable and not such an immediate threat. I realize that this is a significant nerf to other classes as well so they would need to be compensated for it somehow, but as a whole condition builds lean on it so heavily that I think it needs to be brought down a bit.

Our damage before the June patch was fine, it was never the issue, if you let us stand and free cast we could inflict a ton of pressure on the other team. Then they gave us the ability to do it even better, still without survivability, now we have survivability. Just take back the damage and we’ll be in a good spot.

DiogoSilva.7089:

No. That was entirely from an elementalist’s point of view.

Yeah, pretty easy to tell. Play necro, see what effect you have on a team fight with x/x/x/30/30 ele round.

Pandabro.8743:

Burning is just simply too much.

The problem is that the Devs decided it was better to give us a massive amount of damage and THEN fixing DS instead of the opposite. Honestly if they had just fixed DS in the big balance patch I would have been very happy.

Burning needs to be changed to something that supports the power builds not something that is so valuable that condi necros HAVE to spend 30 points into a tree for very little other than it (Seriously, if burning wasn’t a GM trait there would be almost 0 reason to going into Spite for condimancers).

This isn’t really a problem that is specific to necros either because burning is just so ridiculously powerful. It turns attrition (Which is what conditions should be about) into burst for every class that has it.

Personally I feel burning needs to be brought down a bit, perhaps make it deal less damage per tick but have a longer duration across the board. This would bring it in line with the attrition nature of conditions but be much more manageable and not such an immediate threat. I realize that this is a significant nerf to other classes as well so they would need to be compensated for it somehow, but as a whole condition builds lean on it so heavily that I think it needs to be brought down a bit.

Our damage before the June patch was fine, it was never the issue, if you let us stand and free cast we could inflict a ton of pressure on the other team. Then they gave us the ability to do it even better, still without survivability, now we have survivability. Just take back the damage and we’ll be in a good spot.

For Guardian and Elementalist and Warriors (well war less now) that burning pretty much is the extent of their damage as they don’t have poison, and confusion backing it up. Burning itself is fine, it’s who has it and how they put it out.

It’s good that their is a condition trait in Spite, it ideally creates reasons for everyone to go in a line and mix things up, but burning is too powerful for that role.

So last patch allowed necros to not need greater marks anymore allowing them to go further balls deep into offensive builds. Soon as I saw the patch, I immediately thought, “Welp, necros are going to be running 30-20-0-0-20 now to hit dhuumfire, terror, and fear duration+50%”. In addition, the 20 in Soul Reaping gives us extra defense in deathshroud and some life force generation, so we have some mitigation from pressure.

Combine that with the fact that necro performs best when they aren’t in the thick of the fight/ pressure, it makes it a REALLY annoying class to fight against. My main tactic usually involves hanging in the back while our guard stays on point. When I see incoming enemies, drop marks, signet of spite, epidemic, go in for the kill.

There’s few things incentivizing necros to get into the fight (or really subject themselves to be the focus of the attack), as dagger is underwhelming, wells can be traited to be ground-targetted, except for our deathshroud, (2 is a gap close, 3 is a longer duration when close, 4-5 affect the area around you), so we are seeing a very homogeneous playstyle between necromancer players, which is essentially hang in the back and apply pressure.

This isn’t to see the necromancer is necessarily OP, it is just forced into a situation where the best tactic is to position yourself in a way that you can destroy the other team unchecked. It is ENTIRELY possible to bring the necromancer down through a focused effort in very little time, though with the last patch this has been mitigated somewhat ( haven’t played enough tpvp since the patch, granted so I can’t say for certain, still with the reallocation of points into soul reaping, and prior experience with that traitline, as well as the bug fix to direct damage in ds, I imagine my statement about the mitigation, should be valid still ).

One issue that I have with the necromancer class is that it is build pretty much as only a caster class. Elementalists (d/d, s/d) and mesmers (s/f, s/p) both have playstyles that encourage getting into the heart of things, but somehow the pacing that necromancer’s act always seem more…. calculated. Perhaps it’s the cast time on abilities, lack of more immediate movement abilities (ds 2 needs to hit target, wurm/spectral walk need to have set up etc).

I’m not entirely sure where i’m trying to get with all of this, it sort of devolved into a stream of consciousness type writing, but those are general thoughts I had on the necromancer.

EDIT:
Thought I’d mention I REALLY like this idea: from DiogoSilva.7089, b/c apparently i can’t quote.

- Alternatively, just have the trait apply a Fire Aura on himself. Why not? It’s easier to counter, as it’s visually expressive and will require a conditional effect to spec. It can be stronger in certain situations (aoe burning spread, might-stacking), while being easier to deal with. Besides, fire aura makes far more sense in high-hp + DS necromancers than it does in evade-dependent elementalists;

Power is still not exactly where it needs to be. To get the damage you would want as a necro power build you have to slot all offensive utilities. I think spite desperately needs a good sustain option as Close to Death will trump about anything other than another OP GM trait. Either something that allows a necro to lock down a target for wells/dagger damage, or retain some more sustainability in a fight until their burst comes up. Any one trait (dhuumfire) that encourages wasting trait points just because it will automate all your damage for you needs to go. Ive got hate for it before, but I think moving the chance on crit for weakness to spite would be a very healthy change as no one needs it for condi builds (dagger #5, weakening shroud, combo fields) as long as they added 5% LF gain when critically hit with an ICD of about 20 seconds to it.

Burning is fine as a “bursty” condition, but that’s why it shouldn’t be in the necromancer in the first place, imo. Or at least, not the way as it is now, which can be very reliably and frequently applied.

Yeah, pretty easy to tell. Play necro, see what effect you have on a team fight with x/x/x/30/30 ele round.

But you see, I’m not a top-tier competitive player who’s willing to playtest every single class I don’t want for the sake of winning. I’m a mildy-competitive player who likes to stick to one or two classes for fun, and tries to do their best based on what the I know and based on what I see on the battlefield. If a specific class is too strong against the majority of the players, but its power is justified and “balanced” due to a few obscure details that only the top tier multi-classing players know, then there’s a problem with pvp’s design.

About a bunker elementalist, in my opinion, I don’t think their party support is that much greater than a valkyrie-burst ele. What else can bunkers offer to the party that a 30/20/20 burst ele can’t? Slightly higher healing? That’s nice. Extra condition removal on switching to water attunement? That’s nice. But there’s not much more than that. Bunker eles lose damage to gain plenty of self-defense through cantrips, boons and cleansing. The exception is if they pick the aura-sharing trait over the cleansing trait, which gives allies auras and swiftness/ fury. But that won’t help them versus current necros, and they’ll be left with about as much condi-cleansing as 20-water burst eles.

Fresh Air eles have less party healing and vitality or toughness for stronger coordenated bursts and more damage.

ensoriki.5789:

For Guardian and Elementalist and Warriors (well war less now) that burning pretty much is the extent of their damage as they don’t have poison, and confusion backing it up. Burning itself is fine, it’s who has it and how they put it out.

It’s good that their is a condition trait in Spite, it ideally creates reasons for everyone to go in a line and mix things up, but burning is too powerful for that role.

I see that, in itself, as a problem. If you build for conditions but are relying on one condition to do anywhere from 60-80% of the damage is that not a problem? Shouldn’t condition builds have multiple sources of damage?

Allie Murdock.8152:

Ok, here’s the deal. I’m hearing different things from everyone I talk to…

Which is it? At this point, I want to see streams and videos of matches. If you have examples of the following, please share (STREAM SHOULD BE AFTER THE PATCH)…

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

Sorry I cut her original post short for space sake. This is awesome that she is asking for this level of feedback. Thanks Allie!

I like the idea of fire aura.
Changing burning to 2 stacks of confusion.
Maybe it could be something similar to mesmers trait, for example: put 3 stacks of confusion on interrupting a foe (but then terror would have to be on grandmaster trait, and new “dhuumfire” on the same tree as grandmaster trait).
Or put it on one of defensive traits – one with toughness, or one with vitality.
Or put 2 seconds of burning on 240 area, when using healing skill. It would be much more interesting to play and watch (!), since it could give players a counterplay.

Maybe reduce cast time of marks to 1/4 seconds and create 1/2 second long animation, showing which kind of mark was created. show us death itself, when staff#5 is being put down.

There are more traits, that are not used so often, like these, which heal you allies when leaving death shrout, or heal allies when using Life Transfer. Maybe they should cleanse condis from allies (or only damaging once only). I would love to see necros not only put in a role of condi pressure.

Allie Murdock.8152:

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Ok, here’s the deal. I’m hearing different things from everyone I talk to.

1. Necro DS is too much and should be brought down
2. Necro damage is too much and should be brought down
3. Necro survivability is bad

Which is it? At this point, I want to see streams and videos of matches. If you have examples of the following, please share (STREAM SHOULD BE AFTER THE PATCH):

1. Team w/ 1 necro vs team w/o necro
2. Team w/ 1-2 necros vs team w/ 1-2 spirit rangers
3. Team w/ 1 necro vs team w/o neco but w/ berserker stance warrior (with heavy CC build – maybe mace/shield + hammer)
4. Team w/ 1 necro vs team w/o necro but w/ 1-2 spirit rangers
5. Team w/ 2 necros vs team w/ 1 necro & 1-2 spirit rangers
6. Team w/ 2 necros vs team w/ 2 berserker stance warriors (with heavy CC build)
7. Team w/ 2 necros vs team w/1-2 spirit rangers & 1 berserk stance warrior (with heavy CC build)
8. Team w/ necro vs team w/ Engi (w/ 30 pts in Alchemy)
9. Team w/ necro vs team w/o necro, but with any combination of the following: spirit ranger, berserker stance warrior (with heavy CC build), Engi w/ 30 in Alchemy, guardian w/ contemplation of purity/stand your ground.

Any other examples are welcome, but I want to SEE that what you are saying is in fact true. The sooner the better.

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

Well, that escalated rather quickly, but I’m in total agreement with Allie.

A well played berserker stance warrior is a horror vs meta necro in a teamfight. Still has problems, but really, people should try running comps Allie mentioned.

Also, don’t forget to eat your lunch this time! =)

Sounds to me like counter-comps have appeared. Revert the patch – necros were fine before!

In that case please don’t change anything. I think some things released 2 patches ago could have really used further testing, I really was a fan of slow and steady approach. Go into the qualifiers with what we have then take a serious look afterwards, there is no small or simple change that will balance this between three games modes.

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Will provide video proof from Warrior perspective.

Video 1: http://www.twitch.tv/defektive/c/2634208 vs. Gibbly in tPvP.

Video 2: http://www.twitch.tv/defektive/c/2634245 vs. Bruja in tPvP (A wild Bruja has appeared).

reedju.5786:

In that case please don’t change anything. I think some things released 2 patches ago could have really used further testing, I really was a fan of slow and steady approach. Go into the qualifiers with what we have then take a serious look afterwards, there is no small or simple change that will balance this between three games modes.

I agree with this guy. Good or bad, players have lived with it for a few days now and worked things out. The complaints in this thread have been complaints for months and if you were that concerned with the tournament you shouldn’t have had a patch to begin with.

Let the tournament play out and you will have all the data you need because you should be able to find streams of every single scenario you asked for with the top players on both sides. Even if it doesn’t match the current meta, you’ll still see people out there making things work. I’m sure you’ll see tons of 5x Hunter or 5x Mesmer teams. All Thief teams etc.

At this point you may as well wait.

This is a group of 3 or 4 necros which should help to understand certain concerns Allie. I have to say that 3/4 of these guys jumped all on the necro train. They maybe have 20-30 necro games.

http://www.twitch.tv/xsuperxgw2/b/435324465

I am fine with necros having decent survivability but in my opinion the burning has to go first. Maybe also changing weakness to some little bit more predictable since it can destroy entire direct damage burst (maybe permanent 10% damage reduction considering the duration one can stack). After that we can look how things will evolve. Also obvious animations for necro spells would be nice in future, just in order to predict and counterplay certain actions.

What we need to do is have “professionals” to play these class scenarios. Not people that are forced into doing it, but people who feel comfortable and enjoy class and mechanics of a build.

Throwing people up against others who have no idea what their doing won’t help much either. It is a confused state of affairs we are in to say the least, and everyone has their own opinions of what is wrong.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey all, just wanted to let you know that we’re watching this thread closely.

Really appreciate the constructive feedback, particularly yours, Phantaram. You seem to be analyzing from a very objective and unbiased point of view, which is very helpful.

As for the subject at hand, I don’t have anything to remark about it because we’re still wanting to see more constructive, unbiased feedback. We’ll continue to observe matches today to determine if any immediate action is necessary.

Glad you guys are watching this thread closely, after all, GW2 is only sPvP.

Oh, wait, theres PvE and WvW too.

Defektive.7283:

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Will provide video proof from Warrior perspective.

Video 1: http://www.twitch.tv/defektive/c/2634208 vs. Gibbly in tPvP.

Video 2: http://www.twitch.tv/defektive/c/2634245 vs. Bruja in tPvP (A wild Bruja has appeared).

Can you try to record a footage vs a necro post patch?

I will go ahead and state this in here as well.

Unless otherwise stated this thread also affects PvE and WvW and therefore it belongs on the Necro forums not just on the sPvP forums.

Despite what the OPs post says this latest patch was devastating for PvE necros for a variety of reasons. I would suggest, Allie, that you read the large amount of posts there as well, unless you can confirm you’re looking at a PvP and PvE split of DS and other skills?

reedju.5786:

Zenith.7301:

Yeah, it was sooooo much fun being a free kill to dd eles because my conditions were getting cleansed 24/7 before I got cover conditions!

I refer you to this https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.twitch.tv%2Fsymbollix%2Fc%2F2622702

Also, with access to torment on staff and scepter along with the sustain they are giving us you will actually be harder to kill and have less issue getting bleeding to stick. Burning isn’t a good “cover condition” because you don’t have any idea or control over when it is going to proc. Often it will proc before your bleeds giving you 0 cover as the last condi applied is the first removed

EDIT: Fear, Chillblains, Tainted Shackles are all good examples of skillful ways to cover bleeds

That was s/d burst, dd has much more sustain.

Cut out burning, it doesn’t fit our g’kitten class in lore or playstyle. Replace it with higher damage vs chilled targets or change the 25pt to chill on crit and give the 30 point a choice between 10% more damage to chilled targets or 20% more damage to targets under 50% HP.

2 birds with one stone.

Do not change DS again, unless you’re going to give necromancers a SIGNIFICANT boost in sustain/escape. We are the focus target because we’re an easy kill, not because we’re significant in any way. Perhaps a trait which limits DS loss to 8%/s or something like that.

And for the love of everything, DO NOT HOTFIX. No offence intended here, but you’ve made a couple of really stupid balance decisions re: necromancers already (compounding the godawful class balance until this point) and I’d rather not see another one administered on the whim of 7/8 of the forum’s population.

Thanks.

HPLT.7132:

This is a group of 3 or 4 necros which should help to understand certain concerns Allie. I have to say that 3/4 of these guys jumped all on the necro train. They maybe have 20-30 necro games.

http://www.twitch.tv/xsuperxgw2/b/435324465

I am fine with necros having decent survivability but in my opinion the burning has to go first. Maybe also changing weakness to some little bit more predictable since it can destroy entire direct damage burst (maybe permanent 10% damage reduction considering the duration one can stack). After that we can look how things will evolve. Also obvious animations for necro spells would be nice in future, just in order to predict and counterplay certain actions.

I had to stop watching after scrolling to 6:53 to 7:13. Based on the perspective of the necromancer we are streaming with, they are truly: " I have to say that 3/4 of these guys jumped all on the necro train." The order of execution of the skills is completely off. They consumed conditions after only getting burning, they applied spectral armor (while full on ds), THEN spectral wall, which doesn’t proc protection if you already have it.. just bad plays all around.

If you could point out certain sections of that clip that you’d like us to examine, please do so, as I’m sure we appreciate being able to see hard evidence, but I don’t believe we have time to look through an hour of gameplay that might not reflect anything.

Krilce.7864:

Defektive.7283:

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Will provide video proof from Warrior perspective.

Video 1: http://www.twitch.tv/defektive/c/2634208 vs. Gibbly in tPvP.

Video 2: http://www.twitch.tv/defektive/c/2634245 vs. Bruja in tPvP (A wild Bruja has appeared).

Can you try to record a footage vs a necro post patch?

Will try tonight, it’s generally the same unless they go heavily into defensive utilities.

Necro HP and longetivity is OK, it’s not amazing, but its not bad.

I don’t see a reason not to start them with like 20% life force in the beginning of a match and give them a small buffer. But they don’t need much else.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

But we do have a lot of power. My concern is that this power may be working against us. The devs have stated multiple times that they are not giving a necromancer the tools other classes have for survival (stealth, disengage, vigor, invulerability, etc), so to compensate in a world where active defense is the only defense, they give necros a lot of passive defense and a crap ton of damage to boot.

Do we have too much damage? I’m not so sure. We have good AoE conditions, but the fact is that necros apply bleeds slowly, only 2 every 1.5 seconds or so with the scepter, and 3 every 4.75 seconds with the staff. To get bursts of conditions as a necro, I have to do some complicated maneuvers (spectral grasp + Weakening Shroud + Dark Path + Chillblains + Mark of blood into scepter/dagger for grasping dead and enfeebling blood, coming to 13 bleeds after blowing all my cooldowns), and our ace move Epidemic is hard to use, since if they cleanse before use it does nothing and if their partner cleanses after use it does nothing.

It just doesn’t have “Oh crap I’m at the cap!” feel that Condi rangers give, or the “My cleanses, they do NOTHING!” feel that Condi mesmers give, or that “OMG I’M ON FIRE!!!” effect that engineers have. The Mes and the Ranger are tricky and hard to fight, whereas the engineer is oppressive with either direct damage or high controls. The one gimmick we have to lay on the hurt as a conditionmancer is to stagger our fears to maximize terror damage. Against classes with low HP and if we’re lucky enough to have dhuumire proc, this can be quite dangerous. However, a stun breaker and/or stability ruins the chain.

It is rare for me to run a power necro other than a tanky minion master in PVP (which dies to AoEs and becomes helpless very quickly), but Power Necros suffer from a lack of reliable AoE and also have issues at range. Without any cleave, the necro relies on wells for AoE damage, but wells have the bitter flaw that players can simply choose not to stand in them, making them hard to use to that effect. Our ranged power weapon, the Axe, has incredibly short range and does so-so damage at best. Instead, we often rely on Life Blast for our ranged attack, which eats up our defense as we are using it.

Condi necros are slow to start and not in control of their own damage, power necros have tunnel vision and highly delayed AoE, minion masters are vulnerable to AoEs. Our offensive options, for all of their statistical clout, are quite limiting and have their own weaknesses. There are countless times as a Condi Necro where, despite spamming all of my AoEs, I can’t make a dent in an enemy player’s HP because they have dodged/blocked/cleansed literally everything I have done. Instead, my HP is plummeting for their constant attacks, and I have absolutely no way to defend against them.

While the Engineer suffers from the problem that the Devs have no idea what they want the class to do, the Necro suffers from the problem where the Devs have a clear idea what they want to do, and it just doesn’t work too well.

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

Also on a side note some necromancers ask for more mobility simply because it is hard for us to run from out numbered fights. With only one condi cleanse for us in the meta (our heal), we usually have to fight in any given situation because it is very hard for us to escape. Classes usually have at least one leap where as the necromancer has a leap if there is a target to hit. Try roaming with a necro in WvW and you’ll see this. In spvp it is a lot better because we can utilize choke points in the maps with spectral wall or our fears. Sadly outside of that it is hard.

Ok so there are my thoughs. I dont consider myself pro, but I tried many different builds in long period of time. Fact is that necros are good in spvp, maybe one of top class. Why? Because developers gave us unneeded and unwanted burn condition which gives us insane condition burst using terror + burn. In my opinion and in opinion of many players who play necro, this trait should be changed to completly something else. As long as you keep Dhuumfire in game, spvp players will qq about op necros while necros alone will get nerfed – not only in spvp but even in wvw and pve. Fact is that I would really love to get some more survivability or usefullnes instead of burn condition. There we hit another problem -survivability. Many people call deathshroud OP, but it is not really true. Whenever necro is in deathshroud he has no stun breaker, he cant be healed and after recent patch deathshroud is not so good against burst damage either. For people who call deathshroud op and necro too much tanky, think about it twice. Necro has no vigor, no aegis, no block, no invulnerability and not really good source of swiftness. Compare it with guardian for example – his ammount of blocks and heals is much more versatile and more viable than necros only one “HELP ME” button. Almost all classes can avoid some unwanted damage spikes as they will, but its only necro who needs to first generate lifeforce, then he can cast deathshroud and if it fails…. well he has maybe one more dodge and then just prayer to survive. So what to do to balance necromancer?
a.)Remove Dhuumfire(Please admit it, it was bad step. Remove it, but dont nerf other conditions on necro anymore), burn condition doesnt fit necromancer theme, it made his condition bursts very strong, maybe even OP in spvp and neither necros, nor other players like this skill
b.)In return give necromancer more sources of survivability(maybe give us some stunbreaker in DS/allow us to be healed in DS). Reverse last deathshroud change(cmmon, i can cliff jump anyway with spectral walk and this was killing blow for pve players).

I have a bad feeling about how this is going to turn out, purely because the “PvP community” person said “you’re target number 1 because you’re the biggest threat”, when common knowledge is we’re targe number 1 because we can’t escape being pwnt.

Sigh.

I love how the answer to stopping necros is a very specific build which is suggested that every team runs. [Stunlock warrior]

I’ve never heard that for shatter mesmer or guardian bunker or s/d elementalist. All of those builds can be beaten by a large range of meta builds assuming you outplay your opponent. There is a very small percent chance that you can simply outplay a condi necromancer and beat him using any old regular meta build. That’s why everyone hates necromancers it’s because they are so strong that they singlehandedly ruin the meta.

I’d be all for a hotfix, and frankly I think everyone was expecting/assuming there was going to be changes for necromancer in the last patch. We let it slide for over a month because necromancers deserved some time in the sun. But they had their time and it’s time to have a balanced game again.

Main necro, r42, 1.300 hours, yolo-que ~90% rating. Nothing to boast, just to say im not hotjoin hero

1) Burning is too strong OVERALL. Its got a already strong base, and as it stacks in duration, i feel its should be more of a bonus damage to power specs. (its also in power/duration trait lines)
I suggest the good base dmg, but bad scaling, like 300-400 on 0-max cond.dmg. Or maybe even fixed ~400 dps.

2) ON-CRIT !!! How do you counter on crits???
A interesting suggestion was for allow this to only apply to autoatacks.

3) The “medium” duration. 5 seconds allows little counterplay. The reaction time+cleanse casts / transfer hit / passive cleanses take about 2-3 seconds. This means u often waste a 30s+ CD to cleanse only 2s of burning.

The burns that are meant as “fixed” bonus dmg should be short 1-2s therefore “uncleansable”.
Then there should be the “big attacks”, where if u dont cleanse that 5-10s burn off, u rightfuly lose.

4) Necros DID NEED A BLEED COVER…..the fear-spike was good, nobody complained about it for half a year.
If maybe we could get a similar “Torment spike” instead of burn.

For enemys that 1 less condition to cleanse.
For us if we could force someone to ACTUALY STAND STILL:
a) power necro could easier slash them in the face
b) ranged condi could get some range/free hits/easier long casts off

alemfi.5107:

HPLT.7132:

This is a group of 3 or 4 necros which should help to understand certain concerns Allie. I have to say that 3/4 of these guys jumped all on the necro train. They maybe have 20-30 necro games.

http://www.twitch.tv/xsuperxgw2/b/435324465

I am fine with necros having decent survivability but in my opinion the burning has to go first. Maybe also changing weakness to some little bit more predictable since it can destroy entire direct damage burst (maybe permanent 10% damage reduction considering the duration one can stack). After that we can look how things will evolve. Also obvious animations for necro spells would be nice in future, just in order to predict and counterplay certain actions.

I had to stop watching after scrolling to 6:53 to 7:13. Based on the perspective of the necromancer we are streaming with, they are truly: " I have to say that 3/4 of these guys jumped all on the necro train." The order of execution of the skills is completely off. They consumed conditions after only getting burning, they applied spectral armor (while full on ds), THEN spectral wall, which doesn’t proc protection if you already have it.. just bad plays all around.

If you could point out certain sections of that clip that you’d like us to examine, please do so, as I’m sure we appreciate being able to see hard evidence, but I don’t believe we have time to look through an hour of gameplay that might not reflect anything.

So you agree that they just spam skills but and here comes the interesting fact…they still win against teams by 500-100. So this is a very good indicator that something is going wrong and nothing else i tried to proof. For current necromancer play you dont need to know what your skills are doing … just spam skills and if its not a stun warrior → GG

Defektive.7283:

Krilce.7864:

Defektive.7283:

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Will provide video proof from Warrior perspective.

Video 1: http://www.twitch.tv/defektive/c/2634208 vs. Gibbly in tPvP.

Video 2: http://www.twitch.tv/defektive/c/2634245 vs. Bruja in tPvP (A wild Bruja has appeared).

Can you try to record a footage vs a necro post patch?

Will try tonight, it’s generally the same unless they go heavily into defensive utilities.

Necro HP and longetivity is OK, it’s not amazing, but its not bad.

I don’t see a reason not to start them with like 20% life force in the beginning of a match and give them a small buffer. But they don’t need much else.

Good to hear. The problem with pre patch/post patch is massive buff(actually a fix) to survivability. Necros don’t need to waste 10 points anymore, which lets them go for either more damage/cc or more survivability, and that kind of became a problem, since you can’t get necro down that easily, like pre patch.

You could pretty much get a necro 100% to 0 with stunlock build(either hammer or sword + mace / mace + shield build) + someone bursting necro down while you are keeping him shut down, which is quite harder to do now.

Godofallu.2935:

I love how the answer to stopping necros is a very specific build which is suggested that every team runs. [Stunlock warrior]

I’ve never heard that for shatter mesmer or guardian bunker or s/d elementalist. All of those builds can be beaten by a large range of meta builds assuming you outplay your opponent. There is a very small percent chance that you can simply outplay a condi necromancer and beat him using any old regular meta build. That’s why everyone hates necromancers it’s because they are so strong that they singlehandedly ruin the meta.

I’d be all for a hotfix, and frankly I think everyone was expecting/assuming there was going to be changes for necromancer in the last patch. We let it slide for over a month because necromancers deserved some time in the sun. But they had their time and it’s time to have a balanced game again.

This.

Their survivability probably needs minor tweeking based on the early game. But their DPS output is a red flag in team fights and the ability to move conditions from themselves, to others, and spread them in such a way that most classes can’t handle it.

I’d be HAPPY to see their tankiness go up a smidge (-10% damage taken in DS?) if they lost their insane DPS output.

Defektive.7283:

Krilce.7864:

Defektive.7283:

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Will provide video proof from Warrior perspective.

Video 1: http://www.twitch.tv/defektive/c/2634208 vs. Gibbly in tPvP.

Video 2: http://www.twitch.tv/defektive/c/2634245 vs. Bruja in tPvP (A wild Bruja has appeared).

Can you try to record a footage vs a necro post patch?

Will try tonight, it’s generally the same unless they go heavily into defensive utilities.

Necro HP and longetivity is OK, it’s not amazing, but its not bad.

I don’t see a reason not to start them with like 20% life force in the beginning of a match and give them a small buffer. But they don’t need much else.

I don’t think 20% LF with the removal of burning would be terrible at the start of the match. The problem with that is is neglects the philosophy that LF is something that needs to be managed and it essentially becomes a band-aid fix. We need OVERALL better LF regen, adding a larger amount to things that already gave us LF wasn’t the best approach IMO. Thats why I think things like OH dagger should have it, because it needs to be tied to defensive and mitigation style abilities. Too much of it can be a very bad thing for the games health (some of us do remember LF leeches from beta). With spectral they do a decent job, it has the utility of boons + stun break and to add attrition it gains LF. Makes perfect and logical sense. If they added it to dagger 4, it transfers condi, blinds, and if they added 2% per target hit it would add attrition. Putting it on the final auto of dagger never made much sense as, without LF, going into melee range with a dagger is a bad idea. Why not give 2% LF per tick of life siphon as right now it has 0 use in sPvP and bring down the amount we get on dagger auto attack. Focus #4 was also, IMO, a good way to gain LF. But just giving it to us passively at the start of the match seems too easy and things like Dhuumfire have already dropped the skill floor enough.

EDIT: Axe #2 is another example of alot of LF gen in a bad place, even though they constantly give it more no one uses it. You never see axe in tPvP because the sole dmg you get is from a long channel that can be dodged…and when dodged you lose any LF you would have gained from that ability. Too easy to counter as one dodge cuts your sustain and dmg by more than half. It would be better placed as a certain % of LF per person hit by #3 on axe. It cripples enemies, it gives you retal, and with LF it would have attrition potential. I like the boon rip, but it gives it a split purpose and clarity of purpose is something Anet stands behind. suggestion?

axe #3: gives retal, % LF per person hit, and cripples all targets in radius
axe #2: change it to either ground target or PB-AOE direct dmg attack that will rip a boon (similar to mesmer GS #3)
axe #1: change it to something similar to ele air scepter auto attack channel, move the previous axe #2 channel to #1 and have it stack vuln on each attack.

just my humble opinion, but I think LF (necro door to attrition) should be rewarded for strategic defensive play

Godofallu.2935:

I love how the answer to stopping necros is a very specific build which is suggested that every team runs. [Stunlock warrior]

I’ve never heard that for shatter mesmer or guardian bunker or s/d elementalist.

What do you mean you’ve never heard that for guardian bunker? Why do you think people bring condis in the first place? To kill berserker amulets with 1800 armor?

I’ve played Necro and Ele since day 1.

Honestly, after playing post patch, I don’t think the nerfs were too severe and I think condition necros are fine the way they are now. Power necros, on the other hand, I think do too much dmg, I feel like perhaps a nerf to the axe GM trait would bring things in line a little bit more.

And I agree with what’s being said, A good warrior, thief, engi or mesmer can easssily dismantle a good necro. The only classes I don’t find I ever have ‘trouble’ with are elementalists. But perhaps that’s because I play one and know how to fight effectively vs one

I personally think that necros don’t need more power in condition, or burn conditions, in fact maybe remove dhuumfire, and instead give us some form of increased survivability, maybe a 20% healing effect to DS, so even in DS we heal but its only 20% effective.

bullet points

- Necros damage is over the top with the addition of burning in high condi damage builds
- For how much damage necros do they have too much survivability. This is because they get most of their damage from traits so can devote utilies to things like specral wall, armor, and/or walk.

- Weakness is too strong, this makes necros stronger
- Necro + Spirit ranger is the real problem. Almost perma AoE burning from marks and sun spirit
-Storm spirit does too much damage

-CC warriors are great counters to necros, however suffer in team fights as they can get peeled and can not swap targets fast enough like an Ele.

Will provide VoDs if you PM me back

Nikkle.4013:

Making marks viable before the cast finishes is also something I would like to see, or at least something more visible on the necro.

Necromancer raises staff, on staff big black scythe appears, kinda tiny for current size black swirl appears on ground, mark drops as necro does a poker card flash move with hand (dodge here), if you can dodge a backstab from thief you can dodge marks (also they all got their icons if you look at it for more than 3 seconds (hint evade the ones with a scyhe/axe rune and the snake fangs).

Hey folks,
so I did read through some of the feedback. What I want do is get my point of view into the room before I get “infected” by other thoughts.

This feedback is based on my casting experience as well as playing Necro the last 2 days (Only a small amount of points listed to stay on the main problems).

• Problem
  • Suggestion

Here we go:

• As I think the health pool as well as the DeathShroud are mostly balanced at the moment. They are pretty fast to kill without life force which puts them into a situation where positioning matters.
• The damage of the Necro is incredibly high at the moment which could be fixed in at least three ways (especially looking at staff)
  • Reduce the amount of players he can hit (e.g “You can hit up to 2-3 Players”). This forces him into thinking about who to cast an. A problem with this would be that Epidemic is still very strong —> Increase Cooldown (5-10sec)
  • Reduce the radius of his makrs to 180 again. This forces him to take larger marks—> less tankiness. Or he needs to be very precise with his marks. That could mean a dedicated play triggers the marks and cleanses afterwards. (Epidemic not as strong anymore)
  • Give marks a short ranger / make them disappear after 2 seconds. This is probably the most risky way since I am not totally sure how it would affect Necromancers and other builds. (Feedback please!)

I would like to see him more skillbased with more specific targets. This gives the enemy team the chance to split up (not everyone is spammed with conditions), but if played well the chance to be that pain in the * as it is now

SteppenWolf

Mammoth.1975:

Godofallu.2935:

I love how the answer to stopping necros is a very specific build which is suggested that every team runs. [Stunlock warrior]

I’ve never heard that for shatter mesmer or guardian bunker or s/d elementalist.

What do you mean you’ve never heard that for guardian bunker? Why do you think people bring condis in the first place? To kill berserker amulets with 1800 armor?

There is a big difference between having to bring one specific class with one specific build (CC warrior) and having to bring one genetic class with one “specific build” (a condi class)

Ok what about this. Reverse deathshroud changes(flowing damage into hp) as it ruined pve necros. Change dhuumfire into something like : Apply torment(or chill) to all enemies around necro if his lifeforce hits 25%/50%/75%/100%. Give it some cooldown so it wont burst stack. and make it scale(1 stack of torment if 25%, 2stacks of torment if 50% etc)

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Here’s a couple of clips from my warrior today a friend asked me to post.

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2634515

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2633818

Siric.3589:

- Necros damage is over the top with the addition of burning in high condi damage builds for people that dont dare bring cleanse/stability that blocks all fear damage
- For how much damage necros do they have too much survivability with no sustain. This is because they get most of their damage from traits so can devote utilies to things like specral wall, armor, and/or walk that allow them to eat damage but not regenerate the hp like a guardian or ele.

- Weakness is good against crit now, this makes zerker dimwits weak.
- Necro + Spirit ranger is the real problem. Almost perma AoE burning from marks and sun spirit, just as a phantasam daze mesmer/venomshare thief instagib 3 targetswithout any chance of retal unless you got 3 sb and or 2 + invul, just as shout guardian/aurashare ele can stop most incoming damage and regen 3 times their hp over 2 1/4 seconds, etc countless examples of 2 player combos that cause massive teamfight problems

-Storm spirit does too much damage for being a sparkly oakheart that dies to 2-3 aoes

- CC warriors are great counters to necros, however suffer in team fights if paired with morons that cannot give control for them some random ally might help the necro out of pitty and peel for him.
- Guardian and Ele together can passively negate the presence of a necromancer if the forcused target knows when to stun break to avoid fear burst.
- Engie with Pistol/Shield that bothers to slot Elixir C hardcounters a condi Necro by base carry power and in 1v1 fights, necros got 1 full condi cleanse and 2 transfers (one that is bugged so ) that transfer 3 condis all on long cooldowns, so poison, confusion, burning and bleeding in a burst after using static shield does wonders.

Fixed that for you~

just stopping by to say…
It’s awesome that for a tPvP tourney you actually kitten over 95% of the gaming community of the class, that is just…woah.
It’s not even sad anymore.

I’d highly suggest any mods to check the Necromancer forum too as there are some pretty detailed description about how this patch made Necros trash in a blink apart from your precious 1o1’s.

Andele.1306:

Nikkle.4013:

Making marks viable before the cast finishes is also something I would like to see, or at least something more visible on the necro.

Necromancer raises staff, on staff big black scythe appears, kinda tiny for current size black swirl appears on ground, mark drops as necro does a poker card flash move with hand (dodge here), if you can dodge a backstab from thief you can dodge marks (also they all got their icons if you look at it for more than 3 seconds (hint evade the ones with a scyhe/axe rune and the snake fangs).

Marks are fine if they are not casted under people’s feet. I could be wrong but I thought all casts are the same animation. You have no idea if they are casting putrid/reaper or just a mark of blood. Dodging the putrid mark is make or break for any condi class against a necro. I thought anet wanted every skill to have a unique animation so people could see attacks comming. They seem to have done this for most power skills but not so much for condi.

Sigh, a new patch with necro changes and again more threads asking for necro nerfs.

First of, a post about “constructive necromancer thoughs” should be placed better in the necromancer forum, not hidden away in the spvp section.

Second, Necros were fine before anet introduced dumbfire. Hardly anyone complained about them. Now that terror has been nerfed, we’re still considered “too strong”, too many conditions? You do realise that an engi can put out equal if not more cond pressure compared to a necro. With stability so easily accessible to most professions, terror is hardly the issue. An engi can stack confusion, which is just as powerfull as terror if not more so.
Too tanky? Life Force has to be build up, it’s not like we go into a fight with full ds.
If you want ds to build up “fast” you have to trait and take spectral skills, cause our weapon skills hardly fill it fast enough to be “tanky”. Sure we can take a hit 1-1, but 2-1 or more and ds melts like it’s nothing. Let alone rebuilding it. With this weeks patch the dmg flows over onto our hp if it runs out.
Condition necros have a very, very slow life force build up, are very squishy (the dumbfire+terror ones) and we have 0 stability. Use cc and you can play ping pong with the necro.
We have no escape abilities what so ever, when we get mobbed we die where as other classes use stealth, teleports and invulnerability to get out. So calling us “too tanky” is total and utter bs.
If you’re gonna lower our dps it’s gonna completely destroy condition necros, not to mention power based necros.

How about we start topics like this for every class then?
Ele is too strong, they can go glass cannon and heal most dmg in a matter of seconds for too often, nerf plz.
Warrior can stunlock now, nerf plz.
Thief backstab and heartseeker, nerf plz.
Mesmer insta win elite moa morph, nerf plz.
Bunker guardians can’t be killed, nerf plz.
Etc, etc.
If you really wanna learn necro, you should play it a tad longer than a mere 6 hours now and then before you complain about it.

And before anyone comes trolling “you don’t play necro in spvp you don’t know jack”, I play condition necro, power necro and MM builds in tpvp and spvp.

SteppenWolf.8136:

• Reduce the amount of players he can hit (e.g “You can hit up to 2-3 Players”). This forces him into thinking about who to cast an. A problem with this would be that Epidemic is still very strong —> Increase Cooldown (5-10sec)

• Reduce the radius of his makrs to 180 again. This forces him to take larger marks—> less tankiness. Or he needs to be very precise with his marks. That could mean a dedicated play triggers the marks and cleanses afterwards. (Epidemic not as strong anymore)

• Give marks a short ranger / make them disappear after 2 seconds. This is probably the most risky way since I am not totally sure how it would affect Necromancers and other builds. (Feedback please!)

SteppenWolf

Most of the necro burst (as in not wells) is single target or on a long enough cooldown that it means you didnt focus the necro to stop his damage.

Agree that epidemic needs a longer cooldown (25 seconds), but it needs to be instant (or 1/4 cast) and not a projectile, same with CB (back to all boons and not projectile maybe make it 1/4 cast too if epi is). Corruption skills are very situational already…
One thing that should be added is max once pre drop hit on Swall (maybe just make a enemy unable to walk trough it if he was already feared, but chain fears if coupled with a good team to cc the target back in is annoying and cheap), but same needs to happen to all ground/movement based multi hit skills (whirlwind and burning speed being prime examples).

Marks are already 180 and were unvable without GM in pvp, they also have a obvious poker card flash animation unlike the aa and a small black whirl on where they will be dropped that people just chose not to look at for some reason (it is small in comparison to every other effect in game trough). And their duration is quite short for the type of skill they are and the enemy trigger requirement, if their duration would be changed, min would be 4 seconds and marks should use secondary effects (blood give regen, chillblains ice armor/chill field for 3 seconds, putrid cleanse+blast, but nothing for reapers); or staff would be plain useless.