Guild Wars 2

As we’re talking short term here. Just tweak dhuumfire, don’t touch the rest. Tweak it asap (as make it little less strong) and see how it pans out.

Just a couple thoughts regarding the game play as a whole with indirect reference to current Necros:

1 – how about making Fear function similarly to Immobilize by not allowing it to stack with multiple applications? This would eliminate a good deal of the Fear chains and require Necros to actively time the skills rather than simply reapplying with the ease of overlap. I’d like to see the same done for Daze, to be honest.

2. Conditions v Power – the preference of condi and attrition builds over power builds has been trending for months now, specially since the nerf to Quickness. One of the main advantages being that it’s the easiest way around high Toughness, Healing Power, and, possibly most importantly, high Protection up time. The preference, in my opinion, is two fold and stems from the need for some classes to hedge their stats against prominent glass cannon builds – essentially Thieves and shatter Mesmers – as well as offering a solid means of employing area denial (quick side note: for those who are opposed to all the AOE, while it may be overly prominent at the moment, lets not forget that this is a Conquest game mode where map control is the key to winning, and being capable of denying areas of the map is a critical part of the strategic game play). Where I’m driving at with this is perhaps we need to take a look at what is preventing Power builds from being successful, rather than what is simply outshining the Power builds, in this case conditions. That’s not to say that conditions aren’t potentially overly strong at the moment, but I don’t think it’s the sole reason why Power is currently less prevalent.

Lastly, I want to say that I’m opposed to moving Terror to GM trait status simply because with this last round of changes the Necro now has a build with actual synergy. Looking over the traits and skills of a 30/20/0/0/20 build you can now see how everything works together rather than the usual mixed bag of traits that simply bolster wholly different aspects of the class/build but have no relevance to one another. To me it seems as though the goal of these last two patches was to give Necro this one build that isn’t clunky or gimmicky but designed to work for a distinct purpose. So while it might be overly effective at the moment – I won’t argue as to whether that is true or not – I’d ask that proposed changes be geared towards maintaining the build but tweaking for balance.

I’d also ask that when you consider the Necro and it’s role you do so through the lens of its intended design. A low mobility, low defense, high damage class designed to be a walking area denial machine who’s primary mode of defense is essentially face-tanking and not avoidance.

edit: Tl;DR – A good deal of Necro’s recent success has a lot to do with the meta and it’s development over that last few months. Attrition builds have steadily grown in prominence and Necro’s were designed to excel at attrition fighting and since the previous patch have been set up to dominate such play styles i.e. I believe there’s more going on here than just Necros being OP.

Oblivion.8307:

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Here’s a couple of clips from my warrior today a friend asked me to post.

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2634515

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2633818

How do these clips show that a necro is OP? First fighting multi opponents+no stun break, and second one is mostly the eng. Warriors still need some love but this is probably the wrong thread. =P

Glenn.3417:

Sigh, a new patch with necro changes and again more threads asking for necro nerfs.

First of, a post about “constructive necromancer thoughs” should be placed better in the necromancer forum, not hidden away in the spvp section.

Second, Necros were fine before anet introduced dumbfire. Hardly anyone complained about them. Now that terror has been nerfed, we’re still considered “too strong”, too many conditions? You do realise that an engi can put out equal if not more cond pressure compared to a necro. With stability so easily accessible to most professions, terror is hardly the issue. An engi can stack confusion, which is just as powerfull as terror if not more so.
Too tanky? Life Force has to be build up, it’s not like we go into a fight with full ds.
If you want ds to build up “fast” you have to trait and take spectral skills, cause our weapon skills hardly fill it fast enough to be “tanky”. Sure we can take a hit 1-1, but 2-1 or more and ds melts like it’s nothing. Let alone rebuilding it. With this weeks patch the dmg flows over onto our hp if it runs out.
Condition necros have a very, very slow life force build up, are very squishy (the dumbfire+terror ones) and we have 0 stability. Use cc and you can play ping pong with the necro.
If you’re gonna lower our dps it’s gonna completely destroy condition necros, not to mention power based necros.
How about we start topics like this for every class then?
Ele is too strong, they can go glass cannon and heal most dmg in a matter of seconds for too often, nerf plz.
Warrior can stunlock now, nerf plz.
Thief backstab and heartseeker, nerf plz.
Mesmer insta win elite moa morph, nerf plz.
Bunker guardians can’t be killed, nerf plz.
Etc, etc.
If you really wanna learn necro, you should play it a tad longer than a mere 6 hours now and then before you complain about it.

And before anyone comes trolling “you don’t play necro in spvp you don’t know jack”, I play condition necro, power necro and MM builds in tpvp and spvp.

So funny that you actually think the previous patch nerfed necro while they even buffed it more. They are too strong now and it’s as simple as that. Don’t argue. Their burst should get nerfed, period.

Nikkle.4013:

Marks are fine if they are not casted under people’s feet. I could be wrong but I thought all casts are the same animation. You have no idea if they are casting putrid/reaper or just a mark of blood. Dodging the putrid mark is make or break for any condi class against a necro. I thought anet wanted every skill to have a unique animation so people could see attacks comming. They seem to have done this for most power skills but not so much for condi.

Tell me the difference between kill shot and brutal shot if you dont see the target start the cast (its the same but longer), final trust and impale (again same animation), tell me the difference between Mind Whack and Diversion (noone again, not even a vocal tell), between Backstab and Lotus Strike (same again), between head Shot and Vital Shot?
Fact is a lot of animations are the same, be it because devs are lazy or because you should actually try to judge if the enemy is dropping a cleanse when filled with condis or a regen/bleed.
And yeah base animation is the same if the necro drops it on you, but texture is not when on ground.

If you read some of the threads on the Necromancer forums, a lot of necromancers feel that dhuumfire was a mistake, necros should not get burning as it is out pf place.

If you look through a lot of threads or even posts on this thread, changing dhuumfire seems to be a popular idea as well.

IMO, make dhuumfire give Torment instead of burning, aka change to this ->100% chance to inflict 2 stacks of torment for 3 seconds on critical hits. This effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds.

Also, please be careful about changing things for the sake of tPvP without looking into the effects it will have on PvE (I think you already do this, but just in case), as nerfing Necromancers in the wrong way could effectively wipe them out in the PvE arena. Which IMO re-enforces the whole ‘just nerf dhuumfire’ solution, as it will not have too harsh an affect on PvE.

hackks.3687:

I’d also ask that when you consider the Necro and it’s role you do so through the lens of its intended design. A low mobility, low defense, high damage class designed to be a walking area denial machine who’s primary mode of defense is essentially face-tanking and not avoidance.

edit: Tl;DR – A good deal of Necro’s recent success has a lot to do with the meta and it’s development over that last few months. Attrition builds have steadily grown in prominence and Necro’s were designed to excel at attrition fighting. i.e. there’s more going on here than just Necros.

I’d also ask that when you consider the Necro and it’s role you do so through the lens of its intended design. A low mobility, low damage avoidance, medium defense, medium damage, high utility, high sustain, high area control class designed to FACETANK LIKE A MAN!

Time for a split? :p Problem is.. can they split traits?

Serdoc.7261:

If you read some of the threads on the Necromancer forums, a lot of necromancers feel that dhuumfire was a mistake, as necros should not get burning as it is out pf place.

If you look through a lot of threads or even posts on this thread, changing dhuumfire seems o be a popular idea as well.

IMO, make dhuumfire give Torment instead of burning, aka change to this ->100% chance to inflict 2 stacks of torment for 3 seconds on critical hits. This effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds.

Also, please be careful about changing things for the sake of tPvP without looking into the effects it will have on PvE (I think you already do this, but just in case), as nerfing Necromancers in the wrong way could effectively wipe them out in the PvE arena. Which IMO re-enforces the whole ‘just nerf dhuumfire’ solution, as it will not have too harsh an affect on PvE.

Not for nothing, but those same Necros can’t tell you or anybody else why exactly Dhuumfire is so strong or over the top. All they know is that all the QQ started at the same time that Dhuumfire was added. And to be honest it’s 4 sec of burning on a single target every 10 sec. At it’s best it goes up to 6 sec of burning, and still only on a single target. I can’t emphasize enough how little benefit this is in a team fight situation, other than getting a lucky proc on a Doom snipe when focusing down a called target.

Bsgapollo.5364:

So funny that you actually think the previous patch nerfed necro while they even buffed it more. They are too strong now and it’s as simple as that. Don’t argue. Their burst should get nerfed, period.

Is that supposed to be some kind of iWin argument?

Very well, let me try it.

So funny that you actually think the previous patch buffed necro while they even nerfed it more. They are too weak now and it’s as simple as that. Don’t argue.

Did it work?

I and other in here have mentioned this but the discussion taking place here affects PvP AND PvE. The last patch butchered necros PvE survivability to the point where some people are being asked to wait outside the boss room because the other party members knows the necro will die since we no longer can mitigate the damage.

Again I ask that this thread is moved to the Necromancer forums, where it belongs.

Oblivion.8307:

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Here’s a couple of clips from my warrior today a friend asked me to post.

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2634515

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2633818

Your running a berzerkers amulet with banners and hammer against blind spam and condi spam.

Also, all your utilities were on cooldown. Literally set yourself up for failure.

Serdoc.7261:

If you read some of the threads on the Necromancer forums, a lot of necromancers feel that dhuumfire was a mistake, necros should not get burning as it is out pf place.

If you look through a lot of threads or even posts on this thread, changing dhuumfire seems to be a popular idea as well.

IMO, make dhuumfire give Torment instead of burning, aka change to this ->100% chance to inflict 2 stacks of torment for 3 seconds on critical hits. This effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds.

Also, please be careful about changing things for the sake of tPvP without looking into the effects it will have on PvE (I think you already do this, but just in case), as nerfing Necromancers in the wrong way could effectively wipe them out in the PvE arena. Which IMO re-enforces the whole ‘just nerf dhuumfire’ solution, as it will not have too harsh an affect on PvE.

+1 to this, I encourage the PvP only people to read the Necromancer forums as well.

But to add, the last patch massively nerfed DS for PvE as well so it’s not just limited to Dhuumfire burst.

Andele.1306:

hackks.3687:

I’d also ask that when you consider the Necro and it’s role you do so through the lens of its intended design. A low mobility, low defense, high damage class designed to be a walking area denial machine who’s primary mode of defense is essentially face-tanking and not avoidance.

edit: Tl;DR – A good deal of Necro’s recent success has a lot to do with the meta and it’s development over that last few months. Attrition builds have steadily grown in prominence and Necro’s were designed to excel at attrition fighting. i.e. there’s more going on here than just Necros.

I’d also ask that when you consider the Necro and it’s role you do so through the lens of its intended design. A low mobility, low damage avoidance, medium defense, medium damage, high utility, high sustain, high area control class designed to FACETANK LIKE A MAN!

the sustain and defense are new developments, and only so far as to keep the Necro from being nearly defenseless. as it’s been said before, the Necro can’t disengage, so they’re obliged to stay and fight anyone who chooses to do so. If you don’t give them damage potential then they’re defenseless, and if they can’t take a punch or two, then they’re equally defenseless.

I’m not saying the numbers are right, but a Necro needs something to be competitive when they’re perpetually locked into win-or-die situation.

hackks.3687:

Serdoc.7261:

If you read some of the threads on the Necromancer forums, a lot of necromancers feel that dhuumfire was a mistake, as necros should not get burning as it is out pf place.

If you look through a lot of threads or even posts on this thread, changing dhuumfire seems o be a popular idea as well.

IMO, make dhuumfire give Torment instead of burning, aka change to this ->100% chance to inflict 2 stacks of torment for 3 seconds on critical hits. This effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds.

Also, please be careful about changing things for the sake of tPvP without looking into the effects it will have on PvE (I think you already do this, but just in case), as nerfing Necromancers in the wrong way could effectively wipe them out in the PvE arena. Which IMO re-enforces the whole ‘just nerf dhuumfire’ solution, as it will not have too harsh an affect on PvE.

Not for nothing, but those same Necros can’t tell you or anybody else why exactly Dhuumfire is so strong or over the top. All they know is that all the QQ started at the same time that Dhuumfire was added. And to be honest it’s 4 sec of burning on a single target every 10 sec. At it’s best it goes up to 6 sec of burning, and still only on a single target. I can’t emphasize enough how little benefit this is in a team fight situation, other than getting a lucky proc on a Doom snipe when focusing down a called target.

Any half decent necro can tell you exactly why it is OP. It is in a tree with condi duration and it takes 0 skill to use. With epi, no single target condi application exists for necro. With the addition of new weakness and torment, there are more cover condi’s than there are removals to counter it vs a single class (fear, weakness, torment, poison, chill, cripple) . Necro has the best and fastest bleed stacking (I know some will argue, but we can sustain stacks higher than 10 bleeds with a good rotation and knowledge of how to cover them) and along with the strongest base dmg condition our very unique-situational terror/corrupts/transfers we fill the role of every single condi class. Dhuumfire takes no skill and it needs to go. Furthermore it limits profession diversity and is the first step to boring homogenized professions. Unhealthy for the game, PvP and PvE as we see all these PvE necros very hurt by the lack of low LF soak nerf that was triggered by the over the top (literal) condi SPAM. /answered

The problem with dhuumfire is the fact that it’s an unavoidable burn. Where burning is one of the strongest condis of the game.

On long term basis they should try to remove all these unavoidable/RNG/instant stuff from the game and make it animated/not instant/not RNG. This will allow skillful play.

Bsgapollo.5364:

Glenn.3417:

Sigh, a new patch with necro changes and again more threads asking for necro nerfs.

First of, a post about “constructive necromancer thoughs” should be placed better in the necromancer forum, not hidden away in the spvp section.

Second, Necros were fine before anet introduced dumbfire. Hardly anyone complained about them. Now that terror has been nerfed, we’re still considered “too strong”, too many conditions? You do realise that an engi can put out equal if not more cond pressure compared to a necro. With stability so easily accessible to most professions, terror is hardly the issue. An engi can stack confusion, which is just as powerfull as terror if not more so.
Too tanky? Life Force has to be build up, it’s not like we go into a fight with full ds.
If you want ds to build up “fast” you have to trait and take spectral skills, cause our weapon skills hardly fill it fast enough to be “tanky”. Sure we can take a hit 1-1, but 2-1 or more and ds melts like it’s nothing. Let alone rebuilding it. With this weeks patch the dmg flows over onto our hp if it runs out.
Condition necros have a very, very slow life force build up, are very squishy (the dumbfire+terror ones) and we have 0 stability. Use cc and you can play ping pong with the necro.
If you’re gonna lower our dps it’s gonna completely destroy condition necros, not to mention power based necros.
How about we start topics like this for every class then?
Ele is too strong, they can go glass cannon and heal most dmg in a matter of seconds for too often, nerf plz.
Warrior can stunlock now, nerf plz.
Thief backstab and heartseeker, nerf plz.
Mesmer insta win elite moa morph, nerf plz.
Bunker guardians can’t be killed, nerf plz.
Etc, etc.
If you really wanna learn necro, you should play it a tad longer than a mere 6 hours now and then before you complain about it.

And before anyone comes trolling “you don’t play necro in spvp you don’t know jack”, I play condition necro, power necro and MM builds in tpvp and spvp.

So funny that you actually think the previous patch nerfed necro while they even buffed it more. They are too strong now and it’s as simple as that. Don’t argue. Their burst should get nerfed, period.

They nerfed terror dmg by 17%, so yeah still a nerf.
And as far as your famous “buffs” go, they fixed a friggin bug that was in it since release, we were getting double dmg in Deathshroud.
How about you come up with some valid and constructive arguments and actually learn the class instead of going “hurr durr necro op, nerf nerf”. -_-

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Why you dont move this post to NECROMANCER forum??
All this discussion its about the Necromancer class and it shal be ONLY in Necromancer forum, not only sub pvp forum.
Remember that if you change someting, it will go to all pvp, pve, wvsw playing Necro.
Like the discussion about thief and gameplay was on THIEF forum.
So move this post to right place.
Meaby then yu will know more about this class in ALL aspects of GW2 play.
Not only QQ of holiday, occasional Necro players, who login on this class after a X month becose now they noticed Necross cannot be longer ignored in pvp, like they was last X month before.

And there always is a reason like :
“This is the same reason that Red doesn’t get interrupts in Magic, the reason that Zergs, normally, have much more mobility than Protoss (since Toss are usually stronger unit-by-unit), and why Karthus has no escapes.”

Ok, you all shall know this, its a DEAL,
SO, We have a DEAL??

How about just reducing the range of Necro skills? They’re supposed to be in your face, their DS gives them incentive to, so why not make their skills have a 600 range and make them trait for 900?

Their DS is only good up close. They have easy life force now. If their range is taken away they have to be more predictable, which will make them more balanced in my opinion.

KlausKNT.9302:

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Why you dont move this post to NECROMANCER forum??
All this discussion its about the Necromancer class and it shal be ONLY in Necromancer forum, not only sub pvp forum.
Remember that if you change someting, it will go to all pvp, pve, wvsw playing Necro.
Like the discussion about thief and gameplay was on THIEF forum.
So move this post to right place.
Meaby then yu will know more about this class in ALL aspects of GW2 play.
Not only QQ of holiday, occasional Necro players, who login on this class after a X month becose now they noticed Necross cannot be longer ignored in pvp, like they was last X month before.

And there always is a reason like :
“This is the same reason that Red doesn’t get interrupts in Magic, the reason that Zergs, normally, have much more mobility than Protoss (since Toss are usually stronger unit-by-unit), and why Karthus has no escapes.”

Ok, you all shall know this, its a DEAL,
SO, We have a DEAL??

Because Necromancer is PvP right now.

hackks.3687 – i just stated what they should be not what they are
jmatb.6307 – shut the kitten up please zerkers with 0 stun breaks, thanks

Edit since fine manners from person in question.

nothing will be fixed for the qualifiers, but tournament organisers can always set specific rules, like banning dhuumfire.

reedju.5786:

hackks.3687:

Serdoc.7261:

If you read some of the threads on the Necromancer forums, a lot of necromancers feel that dhuumfire was a mistake, as necros should not get burning as it is out pf place.

If you look through a lot of threads or even posts on this thread, changing dhuumfire seems o be a popular idea as well.

IMO, make dhuumfire give Torment instead of burning, aka change to this ->100% chance to inflict 2 stacks of torment for 3 seconds on critical hits. This effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds.

Also, please be careful about changing things for the sake of tPvP without looking into the effects it will have on PvE (I think you already do this, but just in case), as nerfing Necromancers in the wrong way could effectively wipe them out in the PvE arena. Which IMO re-enforces the whole ‘just nerf dhuumfire’ solution, as it will not have too harsh an affect on PvE.

Not for nothing, but those same Necros can’t tell you or anybody else why exactly Dhuumfire is so strong or over the top. All they know is that all the QQ started at the same time that Dhuumfire was added. And to be honest it’s 4 sec of burning on a single target every 10 sec. At it’s best it goes up to 6 sec of burning, and still only on a single target. I can’t emphasize enough how little benefit this is in a team fight situation, other than getting a lucky proc on a Doom snipe when focusing down a called target.

Any half decent necro can tell you exactly why it is OP. It is in a tree with condi duration and it takes 0 skill to use. With epi, no single target condi application exists for necro. With the addition of new weakness and torment, there are more cover condi’s than there are removals to counter it vs a single class (fear, weakness, torment, poison, chill, cripple) . Necro has the best and fastest bleed stacking (I know some will argue, but we can sustain stacks higher than 10 bleeds with a good rotation and knowledge of how to cover them) and along with the strongest base dmg condition our very unique and situational terror/corrupts/transfers we fill the role of every single condi class. It takes no skill and it needs to go. /answered

I won’t argue the merits of RNG, since there are none. I’ll simply agree that there’s far too much of it in the game.

I think you did answer the question, but not quite as you intended. As you mentioned, Necros got a whole host of condition buffs in the previous patch, not just the addition of Dhuumfire and Torment, but also the buffs to Weakness and Blind. What they didn’t get with it was a comparable toning down of their previous sources of condition damage to make room for the new ones.

For an analogy:

previous Necro = 5 lbs bag with 5 lbs of condis in it
current Necro = 5 lbs bag with 10 lbs of condis in it

does that make sense? I’m kinda in a rush, sorry

Dralor.3701:

Oblivion.8307:

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Here’s a couple of clips from my warrior today a friend asked me to post.

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2634515

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2633818

How do these clips show that a necro is OP? First fighting multi opponents+no stun break, and second one is mostly the eng. Warriors still need some love but this is probably the wrong thread. =P

Are you kittening kidding me ? It’s really hard to stay calm with people like you. He was running berserker stance which makes him immune to condi’s for 8 seconds + balanced stance which is a stunbreaker. He used both in a previous fight.
What is a person supposed to do, keep his cooldowns specificly for a necro and ignore all the other CC abilities other classes have? + even if you have a stunbreaker it doesn’t matter one bit since a necro can pull up to 3 fears after eachother, (nightmare runes, staf 5 and deathshroud 3) Only thing that can save you from a chain fear is stability which can also completely kitten you over due corrupt boon cause it turns into another fear aswel. )

Look at the first video, he dropped from 14k health to 0 within 2 seconds while he was running a full sustain build
No class should be able to instagib someone within 2 seconds.

Atleast for pyshical classes there are several ways to counter a burst such as protection weakness, retaliation, and even dodges. What is a dodge going to do while the condi’s are already on you and literally eating you alive.

There is no counter to this kind of playstyle and it’s in 1 word lame. The necro can stand at 900~1200 range and simply dealing all his burst. Tell me, which class can deal such insane burst dmg without getting close ? I don’t think there is even 1 class that can do that. There will be a few exceptions but that person will have to put itself at risk because of it.

I hate it when people try to defend a certain class when IT IS clearly overpowered due recent changes.

That’s why I think range is the solution. If they have to get in 600 range or trait for 900 on scepter and staff they can’t nuke unless you see them. You can time dodge rolls better. You can interrupt them. That makes a HUGE difference.

Dhuumfire should be moved to adept tier to match engi’s Incendiary Powder (same trait with only 10 points investment) , necros would take just 10 points in Spite (10% condi duration instead of 30%) and All condis would last shorter.

Oblivion.8307:

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Here’s a couple of clips from my warrior today a friend asked me to post.

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2634515

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2633818

The first clip everything is on cooldown and you got corrupt boon while running healing signet. Mending would have been better to deal with the condi.

The second clip the same except you have like 3 conditions on you for the first few seconds fighting a Engi before the necro hits you. Still with healing signet.

Bsgapollo.5364:

Dralor.3701:

Oblivion.8307:

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Here’s a couple of clips from my warrior today a friend asked me to post.

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2634515

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2633818

How do these clips show that a necro is OP? First fighting multi opponents+no stun break, and second one is mostly the eng. Warriors still need some love but this is probably the wrong thread. =P

Are you kittening kidding me ? It’s really hard to stay calm with people like you. He was running berserker stance which makes him immune to condi’s for 8 seconds + balanced stance which is a stunbreaker. He used both in a previous fight.
What is a person supposed to do, keep his cooldowns specificly for a necro and ignore all the other CC abilities other classes have? + even if you have a stunbreaker it doesn’t matter one bit since a necro can pull up to 3 fears after eachother, (nightmare runes, staf 5 and deathshroud 3) Only thing that can save you from a chain fear is stability which can also completely kitten you over due corrupt boon cause it turns into another fear aswel. )

Look at the first video, he dropped from 14k health to 0 within 2 seconds while he was running a full sustain build
No class should be able to instagib someone within 2 seconds.

Atleast for pyshical classes there are several ways to counter a burst such as protection weakness, retaliation, and even dodges. What is a dodge going to do while the condi’s are already on you and literally eating you alive.

21k HP = sustain build?

Running HAMMER and BANNER in a Blind spam Condi Meta?

The problem at hand was that he used all his cooldowns not putting himself in a good position to keep the Necromancer stunlocked.

It also didn’t help he was 2v1.

Necromancer DPS is high, there’s no question about that, but that was a flagrant example of bad evidence.

Gutbuster.8745:

Bsgapollo.5364:

So funny that you actually think the previous patch nerfed necro while they even buffed it more. They are too strong now and it’s as simple as that. Don’t argue. Their burst should get nerfed, period.

Is that supposed to be some kind of iWin argument?

Very well, let me try it.

So funny that you actually think the previous patch buffed necro while they even nerfed it more. They are too weak now and it’s as simple as that. Don’t argue.

Did it work?

I and other in here have mentioned this but the discussion taking place here affects PvP AND PvE. The last patch butchered necros PvE survivability to the point where some people are being asked to wait outside the boss room because the other party members knows the necro will die since we no longer can mitigate the damage.

Again I ask that this thread is moved to the Necromancer forums, where it belongs.

The moment where I read pve all your arguments became invalid.

oZii.2864:

Oblivion.8307:

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Here’s a couple of clips from my warrior today a friend asked me to post.

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2634515

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2633818

The first clip everything is on cooldown and you got corrupt boon while running healing signet. Mending would have been better to deal with the condi.

The second clip the same except you have like 3 conditions on you for the first few seconds fighting a Engi before the necro hits you. Still with healing signet.

For the first one:You can’t heal while feared.

Bsgapollo.5364:

Dralor.3701:

Oblivion.8307:

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Here’s a couple of clips from my warrior today a friend asked me to post.

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2634515

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2633818

How do these clips show that a necro is OP? First fighting multi opponents+no stun break, and second one is mostly the eng. Warriors still need some love but this is probably the wrong thread. =P

Are you kittening kidding me ? It’s really hard to stay calm with people like you. He was running berserker stance which makes him immune to condi’s for 8 seconds + balanced stance which is a stunbreaker. He used both in a previous fight.
What is a person supposed to do, keep his cooldowns specificly for a necro and ignore all the other CC abilities other classes have? + even if you have a stunbreaker it doesn’t matter one bit since a necro can pull up to 3 fears after eachother, (nightmare runes, staf 5 and deathshroud 3) Only thing that can save you from a chain fear is stability which can also completely kitten you over due corrupt boon cause it turns into another fear aswel. )

Look at the first video, he dropped from 14k health to 0 within 2 seconds while he was running a full sustain build
No class should be able to instagib someone within 2 seconds.

Atleast for pyshical classes there are several ways to counter a burst such as protection weakness, retaliation, and even dodges. What is a dodge going to do while the condi’s are already on you and literally eating you alive.

There is no counter to this kind of playstyle and it’s in 1 word lame. The necro can stand at 900~1200 range and simply dealing all his burst. Tell me, which class can deal such insane burst dmg without getting close ? I don’t think there is even 1 class that can do that. There will be a few exceptions but that person will have to put itself at risk because of it.

I hate it when people try to defend a certain class when IT IS clearly overpowered due recent changes.

Again you’re totally clueless. Do you actually play tpvp?
This goes for ALL classes, if I used up all my utility skills in a previous fight and some person comes and bursts me down in 2 secs cause of no defensive skills available I die too.
This is clearly not a good example as it’s just a fragment out of a match, your point is here by invalid.

Again, learn the class before you rage like a little kid on the forums.

Guys can someone weigh in one lowering range for scepter and staff on necro to 600 and traiting for 900? Range on such a tanky class with even one spectral is completely ridiculous…

Bsgapollo.5364:

Dralor.3701:

Oblivion.8307:

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Here’s a couple of clips from my warrior today a friend asked me to post.

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2634515

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2633818

How do these clips show that a necro is OP? First fighting multi opponents+no stun break, and second one is mostly the eng. Warriors still need some love but this is probably the wrong thread. =P

Are you kittening kidding me ? It’s really hard to stay calm with people like you. He was running berserker stance which makes him immune to condi’s for 8 seconds + balanced stance which is a stunbreaker. He used both in a previous fight.
What is a person supposed to do, keep his cooldowns specificly for a necro and ignore all the other CC abilities other classes have? + even if you have a stunbreaker it doesn’t matter one bit since a necro can pull up to 3 fears after eachother, (nightmare runes, staf 5 and deathshroud 3) Only thing that can save you from a chain fear is stability which can also completely kitten you over due corrupt boon cause it turns into another fear aswel. )

Look at the first video, he dropped from 14k health to 0 within 2 seconds while he was running a full sustain build
No class should be able to instagib someone within 2 seconds.

Atleast for pyshical classes there are several ways to counter a burst such as protection weakness, retaliation, and even dodges. What is a dodge going to do while the condi’s are already on you and literally eating you alive.

There is no counter to this kind of playstyle and it’s in 1 word lame. The necro can stand at 900~1200 range and simply dealing all his burst. Tell me, which class can deal such insane burst dmg without getting close ? I don’t think there is even 1 class that can do that. There will be a few exceptions but that person will have to put itself at risk because of it.

I hate it when people try to defend a certain class when IT IS clearly overpowered due recent changes.

Both videos show the power of corrupt boon , a utility skill on a 40 second cd which requires the opponent to have boons to do anything, you can see it triggering and suddenly all thos conditions show up.
It’s a very powerful counter, but with those requirements to actually use, it’s what it should be.

Also, on my Necro, getting into outnumbered fights without utilities means death, I thought it was the same for every class.

Defektive.7283:

Oblivion.8307:

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Here’s a couple of clips from my warrior today a friend asked me to post.

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2634515

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2633818

Your running a berzerkers amulet with banners and hammer against blind spam and condi spam.

Also, all your utilities were on cooldown. Literally set yourself up for failure.

+1 for defektive

-1 for symbollix for posting kitten videos really.
Anything would have died just as fast with everything on CD.
Btw you seemed outnumbered in each situation.

Horrible video is horrible, altho necro is kinda OP but sitll horrible video made for trolling i suppose?

Bsgapollo.5364:

… since a necro can pull up to 3 fears after eachother, (nightmare runes, staf 5 and deathshroud 3)

eeeeehhhh lol?
rune of the nightmare 6th bonus: 5% chance to cause Fear when hit. (Cooldown: 90s) this is not on demand and high CD, I’ll just laugh at this.

Bsgapollo.5364:

Look at the first video, he dropped from 14k health to 0 within 2 seconds while he was running a full sustain build
No class should be able to instagib someone within 2 seconds.

It was not just a necro, it was 2 or 3 vs 1 in each video. PLus, the warr should saw the marks on the floor, they are big and red, means you SHould NOt Step In!

Bsgapollo.5364:

Atleast for pyshical classes there are several ways to counter a burst such as protection weakness, retaliation, and even dodges. What is a dodge going to do while the condi’s are already on you and literally eating you alive.

you can roll before the condis are applied. Necro has long cast times on several skills.

jmatb.6307:

Guys can someone weigh in one lowering range for scepter and staff on necro to 600 and traiting for 900? Range on such a tanky class with even one spectral is completely ridiculous…

You posted this before, it’s still ridiculous, just look at the damage they inflict.

If you want to be constructive with your suggestions, instead of looking like a cry-baby throwing a tantrum and blaming everything, look at the patch that made you start crying and try to figure out what part of it was too much.
Ask to only revert that part.

jmatb.6307:

Guys can someone weigh in one lowering range for scepter and staff on necro to 600 and traiting for 900? Range on such a tanky class with even one spectral is completely ridiculous…

For scepter, then nerf all other scepters in game to 600 too and staf is the slowest two hander in game, so you wanna make it worthless again like it was before if not traited, really?

Nikkle.4013:

oZii.2864:

Oblivion.8307:

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Here’s a couple of clips from my warrior today a friend asked me to post.

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2634515

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2633818

The first clip everything is on cooldown and you got corrupt boon while running healing signet. Mending would have been better to deal with the condi.

The second clip the same except you have like 3 conditions on you for the first few seconds fighting a Engi before the necro hits you. Still with healing signet.

For the first one:You can’t heal while feared.

Yea I know you can’t heal while feared but from what I can tell his utility bar is beserkers stance, endure pain, and banner. None of those would deal with any condition build. Even beserker’s stance is situational with its longer cd if he took beserker’s stance to specifically deal with a necro he would have had to pop it before they even engaged but it was on CD so it was useless. If he was shouts, with mending and restorative strength he could have cleared the fear. It’s just not a good example he is also fighting a necro and a scepter ele in that clip.

Defektive.7283:

Bsgapollo.5364:

Dralor.3701:

Oblivion.8307:

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Here’s a couple of clips from my warrior today a friend asked me to post.

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2634515

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2633818

How do these clips show that a necro is OP? First fighting multi opponents+no stun break, and second one is mostly the eng. Warriors still need some love but this is probably the wrong thread. =P

Are you kittening kidding me ? It’s really hard to stay calm with people like you. He was running berserker stance which makes him immune to condi’s for 8 seconds + balanced stance which is a stunbreaker. He used both in a previous fight.
What is a person supposed to do, keep his cooldowns specificly for a necro and ignore all the other CC abilities other classes have? + even if you have a stunbreaker it doesn’t matter one bit since a necro can pull up to 3 fears after eachother, (nightmare runes, staf 5 and deathshroud 3) Only thing that can save you from a chain fear is stability which can also completely kitten you over due corrupt boon cause it turns into another fear aswel. )

Look at the first video, he dropped from 14k health to 0 within 2 seconds while he was running a full sustain build
No class should be able to instagib someone within 2 seconds.

Atleast for pyshical classes there are several ways to counter a burst such as protection weakness, retaliation, and even dodges. What is a dodge going to do while the condi’s are already on you and literally eating you alive.

21k HP = sustain build?

Running HAMMER and BANNER in a Blind spam Condi Meta?

The problem at hand was that he used all his cooldowns not putting himself in a good position to keep the Necromancer stunlocked.

It also didn’t help he was 2v1.

Necromancer DPS is high, there’s no question about that, but that was a flagrant example of bad evidence.

Funny, 13k health ele’s in the past were considered to be a huge threat. Everyone asking for a nerf on bunker ele’s. What does 21k hp have to do with you being sustainish or not ? Hammer also gives stunlocks which makes the enemy unable to attack so it does define as making yourself more sustainish wouldn’t you agree ?

He was running 0/0/30/30/10, so yes that does define sustain as me on a warrior.
I was there during the whole stream and at a certain point he had 2 stacks of torment on him which didn’t dmg it at all cause he had so much regen.

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/b/435679213

Start watching from 2 hours and 19 mins. I wouldn’t be able to make myself a more sustainish warrior, can you ? Since you seem to be the warrior expert.

Also, I seem to have forgetten to say he was running lyssa runes which should make him even more immune to condi’s, but it doesn’t help if a necromancer can spam his condi’s in 10 seconds again or chain fear you while you are trying to get rid of the condi’s. Face it, necro’s their burst is too strong atm and the more experienced players know that.

Andele.1306:

jmatb.6307:

Guys can someone weigh in one lowering range for scepter and staff on necro to 600 and traiting for 900? Range on such a tanky class with even one spectral is completely ridiculous…

For scepter, then nerf all other scepters in game to 600 too and staf is the slowest two hander in game, so you wanna make it worthless again like it was before if not traited, really?

Look at what you get from Marks though. Objectively.

An nearly instant cast MASSIVE AoE that can fear multiple people off a point? 180 radius chill and poison? That weapon is never going to be worthless again.

Necro ought to be a mid range class, then Mesmers, Nade Engis, Rangers, and even Warrior Longbow builds can provide a serious challenge to them. Their skills need to be more telegraphed for how incredible their damage is.

Honestly, some people are so clueless and in denial in this thread, gonna stop replying.

shimmerless.4560:

the difference is that backstab/lotus need the target to be in melee (and positioned properly for double damage in the case of the former), diversion has a different animation to MW on the mesmer herself (i’ll concede this is a subtle one).

marks can be cast from 1200 range and they rarely seem to be affected by the z-axis so it’s possible to find a good vantage point miles away from potential danger. you can say “well use your immunities” yes but this really goes for anything it’s a poor argument i think.

Dark purple explosion… yes because we can totally see the difference between small white stars and small white circles that move the same way that are only around the head of the mesmer since the explosion effect covers them when they roll out of the model (btw no the visibility distortion/water like spike effect doesnt show up around it on med and low settings and volume of the explosion depends on player setup).

I know this is an sPvP forum, but I have to say this; the fix to DS spilling may not seem big for everyone here, but understand that all the Necromancers who’s fate you are dictating right now in this forum that run PvE are really hurting. Since the class has limited dodging, limited stability, no blocks or invuln or on demand dodges, It is currently having a much harder time in PvE than ever before. Some necros are flat out being told to sit out on fights because they simply die to easily. Understand that what you say here dictates the state of 70-80% of Necromancers. Some that dont even come on this forum because most are frankly just WvWers and PvErs who never look at this. I know that it is possible to split skills, but over traits and mechanics are usually final across the board. Basic idea is if you kill off sustain, you kill off Necros abilities to participate in dungeons even more. I know that the last patch was kind of a ‘buff’ to sustain, but its more of a double edged sword. you have more scaling, but less survivability at the end of rope (1-10% LF) which is time gated by a 10s CD.

Now that I cleared that up, I will say that I agree with most people in saying that Dhuumfire is the main candidate for changes. Most people will always bring up the fact that AOE pressure on necro is high, but honestly it always has been, but it never was something that was too big until the dhuumfire addition, giving a chance to essentially ‘spike’ the main target in the middle of the marks (or in some cases just auto attacks). Not only this, but it builds onto necro to well. It eliminated the actual need of a engie while also almost ‘replacing’ it. They may both be condition classes, but It honestly is silly how this works. Imo, I feel that everyones talk of changing dhuumfire to a different damage condition is good. Torment is an awesome thing to transform it to, or maybe even giving the player a shield that applies torment, similar to the fire aura change that people talked about. That will give players on both sides what they wanted, while eliminating the insanity of fire damage off the class.

If Dhuumfire was a change to a Torment- applying shield, It would need a slight damage reduction (talking maybe only 10% or less), an ICD of atleast one for the application of torment itself , and only 1-2 applications of torment per hit. It would also need a similar duration of maybe 3-6 seconds. How it is applied, however is tough. I honestly thing that it would scale with percentage of hp, being cast and every 25% with an internal cooldown of 20-30s. Maybe even longer. The idea is to make the class still have a reason to dip into Spite as condition, but offer something for power players also if they so choose. It could be made more appealing by making it also give 4% more direct damage per condition on the opponent while the actual shield is active. This way, while its not a full 20% like close to death, its a viable option that can combat that trait on the power front also. The actual shield I feel probably will have to be no longer than 12s. anything higher will be too much.

Besides that, the overall tankiness of necro so far is getting there, while still having problem to focus. I dont think there is much that can be changed outside what was already done to spectral armor on this front without upsetting the balance too much. If the only option to nerf is to take away dhuumfire or nerf terror, however, the obvious first one is a better choice. In terms of actually changing marks, they are pretty much fine and can be dodged by most who watch the hand animation.

So yeah, thats all I guess I will say for now. Please consider my Torment shield for a replacement to dhuumfire, codenamed ‘insanity’ because I dont’ have any fancy names. I can’t say its a perfect solution, but the best solution honestly is just that dhuumfire needs to not exist.

Bsgapollo.5364:

Honestly, some people are so clueless and in denial in this thread, gonna stop replying.

agree with you, you need to stop posting your ignorance about necros.
see my post where I quoted you.

Bsgapollo.5364:

Defektive.7283:

Bsgapollo.5364:

Dralor.3701:

Oblivion.8307:

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re kind of on a time crunch, so yeah

If we’re going to do any hotfixes before the Qualifiers this weekend, they need to be asap.

Here’s a couple of clips from my warrior today a friend asked me to post.

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2634515

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/c/2633818

How do these clips show that a necro is OP? First fighting multi opponents+no stun break, and second one is mostly the eng. Warriors still need some love but this is probably the wrong thread. =P

Are you kittening kidding me ? It’s really hard to stay calm with people like you. He was running berserker stance which makes him immune to condi’s for 8 seconds + balanced stance which is a stunbreaker. He used both in a previous fight.
What is a person supposed to do, keep his cooldowns specificly for a necro and ignore all the other CC abilities other classes have? + even if you have a stunbreaker it doesn’t matter one bit since a necro can pull up to 3 fears after eachother, (nightmare runes, staf 5 and deathshroud 3) Only thing that can save you from a chain fear is stability which can also completely kitten you over due corrupt boon cause it turns into another fear aswel. )

Look at the first video, he dropped from 14k health to 0 within 2 seconds while he was running a full sustain build
No class should be able to instagib someone within 2 seconds.

Atleast for pyshical classes there are several ways to counter a burst such as protection weakness, retaliation, and even dodges. What is a dodge going to do while the condi’s are already on you and literally eating you alive.

21k HP = sustain build?

Running HAMMER and BANNER in a Blind spam Condi Meta?

The problem at hand was that he used all his cooldowns not putting himself in a good position to keep the Necromancer stunlocked.

It also didn’t help he was 2v1.

Necromancer DPS is high, there’s no question about that, but that was a flagrant example of bad evidence.

Funny, 13k health ele’s in the past were considered to be a huge threat. Everyone asking for a nerf on bunker ele’s. What does 21k hp have to do with you being sustainish or not ? Hammer also gives stunlocks which makes the enemy unable to attack so it does define as making yourself more sustainish wouldn’t you agree ?

He was running 0/0/30/30/10, so yes that does define sustain as me on a warrior.
I was there during the whole stream and at a certain point he had 2 stacks of torment on him which didn’t dmg it at all cause he had so much regen.

http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/b/435679213

Start watching from 2 hours and 19 mins. I wouldn’t be able to make myself a more sustainish warrior, can you ? Since you seem to be the warrior expert.

Also, I seem to have forgetten to say he was running lyssa runes which should make him even more immune to condi’s, but it doesn’t help if a necromancer can spam his condi’s in 10 seconds again or chain fear you while you are trying to get rid of the condi’s. Face it, necro’s their burst is too strong atm and the more experienced players know that.

He’s running at essentially base HP.

Warrior Regen is kitten poor with Poison being so wide spread right now. Having Poison on you almost reduces your regen to levels pre-patch.

Your far better off running Surge, dumping banner, grabbing Signet of Stamina for more dodges, a condi wipe and you can time your heals around poisen uptime.

Let alone his HP pool is so low that Condis will rip through it without an issue.

Hammer itself is terrible right now against anyone intelligent. The wind up on so many of the attacks is so long that you can time your blinds in such a way as to avoid the majority of the stuns. Hell I’ve dazed someone with mace 3 (melee range) who was trying to Earth Shaker me mid jump. Weapon is to telegraphed and slow to be taken seriously in a Condi meta.

Oh and, Lyssa runes will only hurt him against a Necro who knows how to use his Corrupt Boon. Should have been running Melandru or Hoelberk for -20% / -25% condition duration.

Hell I’ll expand on this even further. If he was that scared of conditions, and followed the instructions above, he would dump 10pts in Tactics to get rid of his banner regen, put 10pts in str so his heals remove cripple/chill/weakness/immobolize on use.

As I’ve said before, these are my main thoughts on the issue:

-> Burning wasn’t necessary, our damage was ok-ish before the big patch. Swap it for torment and/or chill and the trait is still worth taking as a cover/control trait, whilst offering a choice to those that don’t want to run with it.

-> Terror should be GM. I don’t believe that any of the current GM traits even hold their weight as such to be fair, when compared to terror.

-> I disagree with those blaming marks. Specially now, I believe marks are in a good place. I was confused at first, but I really like the way this patch went. I’ve been running untraited marks as a trade off for 20 in soul reaping and I think DS is in a good place at the moment (despite being sad that I can’t fall off mountains freely without spectral walk, was a fun perk to have, but that’s irrelevant), even though our ability to disengage is still somewhat lackluster, making us good duelists but, due to the current exaggerated nature of burst, not so good team fight survivors (and I say this not because we can’t survive burst incoming from a group source, which should effectively be an issue for every class, but because we barely have the option to abandon the fight or to reposition ourselves.). I’d be ok with this if damage in general wasn’t so high as it currently is, which leads me to my next point.

This obviously does not only apply to the necromancer, but I still believe damage is just ridiculously high at the moment. Bursting someone down doesn’t even take coordination between 2 people these days. A few classes can kill people in a burst rotation, which I think is really damaging the game. It’s all about the damage at the moment. There’s no room for support, “sniper” type builds (which I’d love to see one for the new ranger longbow, for example), and other clever ways to win games away from sheer damage/number fights. I think toning everything down would also help with the current problem that is profession stacking.

I appreciate this thread. It seems more constructive and down to earth than others. Even so, some people need to stop acting like immature brats about this kind of stuff. It happens with necromancers today, but if there’s another class that gets a bit overly buffed soon, the OPOPOP comments start flowing, the word “meta” gets chuckled around like a bra-less tit and senseless videos of unrealistic scenarios start being posted for no reason other than annoy players whilst trying to act cool.

Again, if Necros were mid range on Scepter and Staff they would be more predictable and subject to the same AoE they are spreading if another Necro’s on the team. They would balance each other out because with 1200 range both necros can be way apart and not be affected by their burst.

Also Mesmers would be all over them, as would Longbow Warrior, Clusterbomb, Nade / Power Rifle Engis, and S/D Eles. They would have to use DS to try to close the gap, which favors kiting.

I still think damage can be reduced, but having to be closer will make it more challenging for Necros to do what they do. Attrition from range is OP. Attrition from midrange can be countered.

I felt like necro was mostly OK before this patch. They were the strongest class in game by a small margin, but they had some strong counters. Their lack of mobility was made up for with their great built in survivability even in a glass cannon spec. They could melt you if you didn’t focus fire them, but they couldn’t handle being trained or chain CC’d.

Now, they have just as much damage (terror nerf isn’t even equivalent to 1 stack of bleeding) but we’re juggernauts in death shroud with life force coming out of our ears.

The one major drawback to dhuumfire + terror specs was their poor life force generation. It kept them in check by limiting their ability to use death shroud for attack and defense. The buff to base mark size freed up the points needed to get soul marks (and of course the bonus spectral armor) and coupled with the increased life force generation from spectrals, dhuumfire glass cannons now have an abundance of life force. Couple that with the bug fix to DS ability to soak damage, and it has more than doubled the survivability of a “glass” cannon that was already fairly stout to begin with.

jmatb.6307:

Andele.1306:

jmatb.6307:

Guys can someone weigh in one lowering range for scepter and staff on necro to 600 and traiting for 900? Range on such a tanky class with even one spectral is completely ridiculous…

For scepter, then nerf all other scepters in game to 600 too and staf is the slowest two hander in game, so you wanna make it worthless again like it was before if not traited, really?

Look at what you get from Marks though. Objectively.

An instant cast MASSIVE AoE that can fear multiple people off a point? 180 radius chill and poison? That weapon is never going to be worthless again.

Necro ought to be a mid range class, then Mesmers, Nade Engis, Rangers, and even Warrior Longbow builds can provide a serious challenge to them. Their skills need to be more telegraphed for how incredible their damage is.

To quote:
Necromancer raises staff, on staff big black scythe appears, kinda tiny for current size black swirl appears on ground, mark drops as necro does a poker card flash move with hand (dodge here), necro drops hand and aoe appears that explodes on your face if you are in it not evading, if evading it still explodes.

Marks arent instant, 99% of necro skills got 3/4 or longer cast times (compare to typical 1/4 of a ele or 1/2 of a mesmer), long cooldowns and WE FREAKING WAVE OUR HANDS AT YOU WHEN SOMETHING KILLS, all non core skills of a necro rotation dont cause the necro to raise his hands and weapon.

Or should i look at it from another perspective, why do marks do a between 2 to 6 times less damage than all other two handed weapons in game? Its because its a utility weapon.

Guys chill, relax, and please don’t treat pvp like pve, nor pve like pvp (add WvW somewhere in there).

Yesterday I was reading about how tournament teams drop necros on enemy first fight with mass stealth because they have no escape, no immunities, no teleports etc, to win the first team fight which is more important than getting a node at start of the game, that PvE and WvW necros were slaughtered more or less by the changes, and that necros are unstoppable death aoe machines which you can’t fight (so scary that you simply freeze when they start dropping marks, and just wait for the no cooldown, no interrupts, no counters, spammable fear chain from the start of game till end).

People are annoyed that the new blind actually does something, and you can’t just attack thin air to get rid of it like before.

People are annoyed that weakness actually does something and is worth casting and can’t be simply ignored. (short addition here, necros can’t really spam AoE weakness, and are not only class with available AoE weakness, engineers and thieves can just as well put aoe weakness via poison field + blaster finishers).

People don’t like that conditions actually deal decent damage with short bursts, they want probably condition damage to be something that you can simply ignore while you strike back 3-4 figure numbers in the offender’s face.

Necros and engineers have access to most conditions (via different means) because they are the classes most suited at applying conditions (and in AoE) with the worst power build options.

To everyone complaining about Epidemic and arguing that marks (and other AoE condi appliers) should be single target. Show me a single class in the game that needs to slot an utility skill to gain AoE / Cleave damage. There’s none, and will never be. Epidemic is a choice, and that’s all there is.

Regarding pvp, and mainly spvp / tpvp. Stop presuming that the necro is invisible and can load everyone with conditions, set up fear chains and even bounce peeps into spectral wall for even more terror, without being dazed, blinded, stunned, KD / KB, trained and killed (most common scenario), that nobody runs condition removal (I know, i know is a tough choice, why get the condition removal when I can get this X skill to increase my burst or give me another stun breaker or more mobility w/e).

The thing about conditions is that they can’t be spammed (except for those applies via AA of MH weapon), and you need to THINK when to use your condition removal, same as you would think before using your stun if someone has stability, or your burst if someone is blocking, or shooting into someone’s reflect.

Most of the community is pigeon holed into the mentality of current pve meta, where you put full zerker on, stack 25 might, add fury, and mash 1-2-3-4-5 to kill something before you take the hit that kills you.

Spvp is a huge mess, and by no means the place to look at for considering balance changes to classes / game mechanics.

WvW again is not the place to look at.

So we’re left with Tpvp and PvE. Tpvp evolves and changes depending on team compositions and tactics used, while PvE has same old bosses and mechanics. So this is where it should be looked at – but only having good arguments to why and what should be changed, keeping in mind all aspects of the game (so that necro players don’t end up stopping playing GW2 for rest of the year because already nobody wants them in dungeons, in DE mobs die too fast to be able to contribute in a meaningful way with the tools the class has at disposal, etc).

The solution is superior easy. Remove dhuumfire again. Necromancer is about cursing, bleeds/poison/terror fit in that respect. Torment also and with those 4 necromancer has enough pressure. A few extra bleeds here and there wouldnt hurt to much, but apart from that they are ok. Dhuumfire was totally unnecessary, forces you to use 30 points in a bad traitline (10-20 traits suck for condimancer), and called for unnecessary nerfs. The nerfs only did good for the full ‘burst conditionmancers’. But not everyone uses that build. And so you nerfed everyone with it.

I know you only care about pvp, but the survivability of necro in wvw has dropped to deep dephts (compared to other professions). To low for me to be fun enough to play. It’s sad but I had to abandon my 900 hours main, cause well ‘high risk, high reward’ isn’t my playstyle. That’s for thiefs. (and those can disengage, necro can’t).

Remove dhuumfire, return old terror rate (yes you heard me right! often i chained it, and they still got away with 1k hp. The 17% nerf is gonna make a hell of a lot duels even harder to win.) = win.

Spectral armor should be balanced, so that it is stronger against more enemies, and weaker in a duel. Atm it’s slightly (omg i said it), overpowered in a duel, but massively underpowered in a zerg fights. To be honest, You guys are to focussed on ‘we must give every profession similar skills mechanics’. Wrong. Sometimes it underpowers/overpoweres because of that. Ele has Chill/stun ‘on being hit’ effects. Those are STRONG enough to warrant internal cooldown. The mesmer chaos armor i dunno, i think it’s to weak now. But having no internal cd might be to powerfull in certain cases. And then necromancer. The only thing you get: life force. It used to be ‘ok’ in zergs, en mediocre in duels. I don’t why it has to be changed. You want to make necro unique? Well spectral armor WAS a unique ‘shielding’ skill for necromancer. More hits, more life force (not essentially invulnerability, a lot can go wrong). More hits, more life force. It balanced pretty well. Now it’s garbage in large groups. (Elixir S anytime over this in zergs).

And the ‘new death shroud tanking op? What are you guys smoking. Death shroud is now like having 300 inventory slots, while you can only fill 100 of them. The last 200 slots (or life force) is useless cause you rarely can fill it up. It’s a non issue, and QQ from ‘omg i lost from profession X’-ppl.