When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
Constructive necromancer thoughts.
Guys can someone weigh in one lowering range for scepter and staff on necro to 600 and traiting for 900? Range on such a tanky class with even one spectral is completely ridiculous…
For scepter, then nerf all other scepters in game to 600 too and staf is the slowest two hander in game, so you wanna make it worthless again like it was before if not traited, really?
Look at what you get from Marks though. Objectively.
An instant cast MASSIVE AoE that can fear multiple people off a point? 180 radius chill and poison? That weapon is never going to be worthless again.
Necro ought to be a mid range class, then Mesmers, Nade Engis, Rangers, and even Warrior Longbow builds can provide a serious challenge to them. Their skills need to be more telegraphed for how incredible their damage is.
To quote:
Necromancer raises staff, on staff big black scythe appears, kinda tiny for current size black swirl appears on ground, mark drops as necro does a poker card flash move with hand (dodge here), necro drops hand and aoe appears that explodes on your face if you are in it not evading, if evading it still explodes.Marks arent instant, 99% of necro skills got 3/4 or longer cast times (compare to typical 1/4 of a ele or 1/2 of a mesmer), long cooldowns and WE FREAKING WAVE OUR HANDS AT YOU WHEN SOMETHING KILLS, all non core skills of a necro rotation dont cause the necro to raise his hands and weapon.
Or should i look at it from another perspective, why do marks do a between 2 to 6 times less damage than all other two handed weapons in game? Its because its a utility weapon.
That’s exactly why Necro needs to be closer to the action. Right now a Necro can ledge spam marks and condis from 1200 range, and have one of the best survivability mechanics in the game with Death Shroud, which they will build up very quickly with Spectral Armor.
If they have to do that windup, and 3/4 a second isn’t that long at all, people can react. They can interrupt you, dodge the mark, and then risk is created. Right now there is no risk if the player has a clue what he’s doing.
A 600 range necro will be kited and force to use DS to gap close with #2. Once they do, if the ranged player doesn’t have an out, he will be in serious trouble. If he does then it becomes a battle of wits.
Also, it presents Engis as a ranged alternative. Necros would be very powerful up close, but Engis would be better from a distance. That creates a real tradeoff. Right now, as strong as HGH still is, it doesn’t even hold a candle to a Necro. With that simple change, now Necro has competition. You can reflect nades. You can’t reflect scepter or staff skills on Necro.
That’s what Necro needs imo
(edited by jmatb.6307)
Funny, 13k health ele’s in the past were considered to be a huge threat. Everyone asking for a nerf on bunker ele’s. What does 21k hp have to do with you being sustainish or not ? Hammer also gives stunlocks which makes the enemy unable to attack so it does define as making yourself more sustainish wouldn’t you agree ?
He was running 0/0/30/30/10, so yes that does define sustain as me on a warrior.
I was there during the whole stream and at a certain point he had 2 stacks of torment on him which didn’t dmg it at all cause he had so much regen.http://www.twitch.tv/symbollix/b/435679213
Start watching from 2 hours and 19 mins. I wouldn’t be able to make myself a more sustainish warrior, can you ? Since you seem to be the warrior expert.
Also, I seem to have forgetten to say he was running lyssa runes which should make him even more immune to condi’s, but it doesn’t help if a necromancer can spam his condi’s in 10 seconds again or chain fear you while you are trying to get rid of the condi’s. Face it, necro’s their burst is too strong atm and the more experienced players know that.
2 hours 35 seconds he fights the necro 1v1 cooldowns are good to go and he handles the necro pretty easily and downs him. Scepter ele comes in he can’t get a secure stomp so he leaves. Looks fine to me in that part of the clip because his cooldowns where up.
2 hours 19 minutes he fights the necro again 1v1 and gets the stomp.
Footage is long so I don’t know where the specific clip is that he posted but it looks like 1v1 against a necro he holds up fine he really only loses alot of HP from corrupt boons which he cleanses right away with lyssa. I don’t see problem tbh based on your post. The 2 hour 35 second part he has to disengage because of the scepter eles burst and he doesn’t have cd’s up, not due to condi pressure he gets spiked to close to half hp so he leaves without stomping.
2 hours 35 seconds is actually good footage to start at for what Allie was asking for though.
[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}
(edited by oZii.2864)
Now, they have just as much damage (terror nerf isn’t even equivalent to 1 stack of bleeding) but we’re juggernauts in death shroud with life force coming out of our ears.
a) Spectrals got nerfed, DS by base got also nerfed, Full life force fights got buffed, if you let the necro snowball within the first 3 fights (remember necros start at 0~30 if they use the minion trick), that means you let them generate the hp, same as a HGH/Might stacker, you have your chance to deny all that
b) Spectrals are worthless now in 1vx and coordinated teamfights, Sarmor being cheezy Endure pain in 1v1.
c) You cannot pick up all the traits you mentioned lower in your post at once without losing Lingering curses, the second strongest trait for a condi necro.
Spectrals are worthless?! What planet do you live on lol you get a single skill that can eat an entire Ele burst in DS from 1/2 to barely more than 1/4. Without dodging. That is unbelievably strong.
Now, they have just as much damage (terror nerf isn’t even equivalent to 1 stack of bleeding) but we’re juggernauts in death shroud with life force coming out of our ears.
a) Spectrals got nerfed, DS by base got also nerfed, Full life force fights got buffed, if you let the necro snowball within the first 3 fights (remember necros start at 0~30 if they use the minion trick), that means you let them generate the hp, same as a HGH/Might stacker, you have your chance to deny all that
b) Spectrals are worthless now in 1vx and coordinated teamfights, Sarmor being cheezy Endure pain in 1v1.
c) You cannot pick up all the traits you mentioned lower in your post at once without losing Lingering curses, the second strongest trait for a condi necro.
a. More than doubling the amount of life force in exchange for an ICD is a buff under most conditions. For the old SA to be better, you would have to be hit 3 times per second, which essentially means that you’re trying to tank the universe with your face.
…c. My auto attack bleeds last 6 1/2 seconds without lingering curses. I’ll take the free spectral armor and soul marks 100 times out of 100.
“We recognize that the changes to [ele] will essentially remove it from play. In the future,
we may consider whether or not there is an incarnation of [ele] that would be viable
but balanced. For now, we do not expect it to see serious use.” – ANet
we may consider whether or not there is an incarnation of [ele] that would be viable
but balanced. For now, we do not expect it to see serious use.” – ANet
That’s exactly why Necro needs to be closer to the action. Right now a Necro can ledge spam marks and condis from 1200 range, and have one of the best survivability mechanics in the game with Death Shroud, which they will build up very quickly with Spectral Armor.
If they have to do that windup, and 3/4 a second isn’t that long at all, people can react. They can interrupt you, dodge the mark, and then risk is created. Right now there is no risk if the player has a clue what he’s doing.
A 600 range necro will be kited and force to use DS to gap close with #2. Once they do, if the ranged player doesn’t have an out, he will be in serious trouble. If he does then it becomes a battle of wits.
That’s what Necro needs imo
BWAHAHAHAHAHA – best survivability mechanics in the game with Death Shroud, which they will build up very quickly with Spectral Armor. Epic joke, oh what? That wasnt a joke? You mean that a investment of a 60 second cooldown skill that requires only a single enemy to bash on you to give sustain is the best survival mechanic that is essencially hp that you lose over 25 seconds, yeah totally, invul, blocks and evades dont exist. Especially great sustain.
3/4 a second isn’t that long at all, – you can (well should be able to) dodge backstab from a thief, it has a shorter cast time than it, you can dodge Eviscerate, it has a way shorter and just as obvious animation as the hand swing.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
Now, they have just as much damage (terror nerf isn’t even equivalent to 1 stack of bleeding) but we’re juggernauts in death shroud with life force coming out of our ears.
a) Spectrals got nerfed, DS by base got also nerfed, Full life force fights got buffed, if you let the necro snowball within the first 3 fights (remember necros start at 0~30 if they use the minion trick), that means you let them generate the hp, same as a HGH/Might stacker, you have your chance to deny all that
b) Spectrals are worthless now in 1vx and coordinated teamfights, Sarmor being cheezy Endure pain in 1v1.
c) You cannot pick up all the traits you mentioned lower in your post at once without losing Lingering curses, the second strongest trait for a condi necro.a. More than doubling the amount of life force in exchange for an ICD is a buff under most conditions. For the old SA to be better, you would have to be hit 3 times per second, which essentially means that you’re trying to tank the universe with your face.
…c. My auto attack bleeds last 6 1/2 seconds without lingering curses. I’ll take the free spectral armor and soul marks 100 times out of 100.
I have no idea where people are getting these double DS numbers from, but please pay attention to this.
Pre-patch : DS was 66% of HP base, 80% with 30 in Soul Reaping trait line
NOW – DS is 100% of HP base, 130% with 30 in Soul Reaping.
It was a 50% increase, not 100, not 200, it was 50!
That means that incoming damage is 33% less effective, the same ratio as protection.
Attrition – A pretty name for taking longer than anyone else to kill something.
The moment where I read pve all your arguments became invalid.
Are you really that ignorant? No need to answer that btw.
We are here in the sPvP forums discussing changes that will have an impact on all aspects of the game, but because of that everyone here needs to take into account the PvE and WvW aspect of this discussion but no one was prior to some of us pointing it out.
I get it, you only play GW2 for the PvP part and that is fine but that doesn’t mean you or any one else can just ignore the potential effects of these suggestions on the other parts of the game.
Fact is that the last changed was a major nerf for the PvE necro. Whether necros are ‘OP’ in PvP or not is discussion I’m interested in. Yet I have to post here because of my next paragraph.
What it all comes down to is Anets inability to balance two vastly different parts of the game and despite what they think they will never find an equilibrium where everything works and everything is balanced between the two.
This discussion would be productive and less inflammatory if Anet just decided to split PvP from PvE. All of a sudden things would be so much simpler as PvP balance would not affect PvE balance and vice versa.
Andele sorry dude you’re clueless.
Necros are very strong against burst with even a Rabid ammy with the DS direct damage fix. If they can do that on Rabid, what are they going to do in Shaman with sustain?
Having 1200 range with those tools is completely ridiculous.
Could people please stop flaming me? I was asked to post the video for a friend, get off your high horses jesus christ. The fact I previously used my stunbreakers and berserkers stance prior in the fight means i’m just delaying my death essentially. Oh, and i’m running valks. – I’m running lyssa too.
Symbolic
(edited by Oblivion.8307)
Now, they have just as much damage (terror nerf isn’t even equivalent to 1 stack of bleeding) but we’re juggernauts in death shroud with life force coming out of our ears.
a) Spectrals got nerfed, DS by base got also nerfed, Full life force fights got buffed, if you let the necro snowball within the first 3 fights (remember necros start at 0~30 if they use the minion trick), that means you let them generate the hp, same as a HGH/Might stacker, you have your chance to deny all that
b) Spectrals are worthless now in 1vx and coordinated teamfights, Sarmor being cheezy Endure pain in 1v1.
c) You cannot pick up all the traits you mentioned lower in your post at once without losing Lingering curses, the second strongest trait for a condi necro.a. More than doubling the amount of life force in exchange for an ICD is a buff under most conditions. For the old SA to be better, you would have to be hit 3 times per second, which essentially means that you’re trying to tank the universe with your face.
…c. My auto attack bleeds last 6 1/2 seconds without lingering curses. I’ll take the free spectral armor and soul marks 100 times out of 100.
I have no idea where people are getting these double DS numbers from, but please pay attention to this.
Pre-patch : DS was 66% of HP base, 80% with 30 in Soul Reaping trait line
NOW – DS is 100% of HP base, 130% with 30 in Soul Reaping.It was a 50% increase, not 100, not 200, it was 50!
That means that incoming damage is 33% less effective, the same ratio as protection.
We’re discussing life force generation from spectral skills, not total life force pool.
“We recognize that the changes to [ele] will essentially remove it from play. In the future,
we may consider whether or not there is an incarnation of [ele] that would be viable
but balanced. For now, we do not expect it to see serious use.” – ANet
we may consider whether or not there is an incarnation of [ele] that would be viable
but balanced. For now, we do not expect it to see serious use.” – ANet
Now, they have just as much damage (terror nerf isn’t even equivalent to 1 stack of bleeding) but we’re juggernauts in death shroud with life force coming out of our ears.
a) Spectrals got nerfed, DS by base got also nerfed, Full life force fights got buffed, if you let the necro snowball within the first 3 fights (remember necros start at 0~30 if they use the minion trick), that means you let them generate the hp, same as a HGH/Might stacker, you have your chance to deny all that
b) Spectrals are worthless now in 1vx and coordinated teamfights, Sarmor being cheezy Endure pain in 1v1.
c) You cannot pick up all the traits you mentioned lower in your post at once without losing Lingering curses, the second strongest trait for a condi necro.Spectrals are worthless?! What planet do you live on lol you get a single skill that can eat an entire Ele burst in DS from 1/2 to barely more than 1/4. Without dodging. That is unbelievably strong.
Mist form, Endure Pain, Elixir S, Distortion,Renewed Forcus (longer cd on this one), Shield Stance (half the cooldown) – all take 0 damage to name a few.
a. More than doubling the amount of life force in exchange for an ICD is a buff under most conditions. For the old SA to be better, you would have to be hit 3 times per second, which essentially means that you’re trying to tank the universe with your face.
You know that most burst skills and effects hit 4+ times within a second, thats just from one target.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
Spectrals are worthless?! What planet do you live on lol you get a single skill that can eat an entire Ele burst in DS from 1/2 to barely more than 1/4. Without dodging. That is unbelievably strong.
Skills that can “at an entire Ele burst”
Warrior endure pain; check
Guardian renewed focus; check
Mesmer distortion; check
Ele mist form; check
Thief teleports+stealth; check
Engi elixir s; check
Ranger signet of stone; check
And those are just the ones that popped right in my mind, there are even more.
Stop uttering nonsense and trying to bring down a class cause you can’t play yourself.
Champion Phantom – Legionnaire – Genius – Magus
Andele sorry dude you’re clueless.
Necros are very strong against burst with even a Rabid ammy with the DS direct damage fix. If they can do that on Rabid, what are they going to do in Shaman with sustain?
Having 1200 range with those tools is completely ridiculous.
what is a Necro going to do with Shaman amulet? All they have is regen and life siphons? The two heals that benefit the least from Healing Power…
Honestly, what is everyone referring to when they say “sustain”? Necro has basically zero ability to recover HP beyond their one viable heal on a 25 sec CD. Think of their HP like an hour glass. It can potentially trickle down slowly, but it definitely has a finite limit.
Hackkz/Riggamaroll
I’ve stayed at this party entirely too long
I’ve stayed at this party entirely too long
(edited by hackks.3687)
TL;DR people in the sPvP forums isn’t capable of looking at things outside the meta. Is spectral armor + DS incredibly strong? Yes, in fact it is almost as strong as these crazy other things that every single other class gets called evades, invulnerabilities, dodges (and vigor), blocks, etc. We don’t have a single one of those, except one dodge every ten seconds. We get a single defensive measure; Death Shroud. It is a single, deplete-able HP bar that we have to fill up in combat.
What happens if we have no DS? We die. What happens when we get CCed? We blow our single stun break, or die. What happens when we get focused? We pray that we have enough DS to absorb it all, or that screaming “HOLY CRAP TEAM HELP ME” in teamspeak is enough to get your team to peel for you. Because guess what; we have no ways to avoid damage, we have no ways to get out of combat, our ways to deal with CC suck. Currently the way to play Necromancer revolves around trying to do so much damage that they aren’t able to go offensive on you OR praying to God that your large HP bar is enough to absorb burst after burst after burst, because guess what, you aren’t avoiding a single sliver of that damage.
To be honest, I only read about to the 3rd page, because after that it sounded a bunch like “waaah waah whaaah” and “Neayyeameaemaea” to me. So, I’ll address some of the relevant points:
On engineers and bleeding: Since I also play an engineer a lot, I have experience with this. The ability for Engineers to inflict bleeding in an AoE is readily seen by comparing their AoE bleed capabilities. For this, I will assume that the engineer is using grenadier, but ignoring condition duration.
Shrapnel Grenade: 3 bleeds, 12 second duration, recharge every 5 seconds (4 when traited). This comes to 3 × 12 / 5 = 7.2 bleed ticks per second, and 9 bleed ticks per second with the recharge increase.
Mark of Blood: 3 Bleeds, 8 seconds, duration, recharges every 6 seconds (4.75 when traited). This comes to 3 × 8 / 6 = 4 bleed ticks per second, and 5.1 bleed ticks per second with the recharge increase.
Grasping Dead: 3 bleeds, 7 second duration, recharges 10 seconds. Comes to 2.1 bleed ticks per second.
Enfeebling Blood: 2 bleeds, 10 second duration, 25 second recharge (20 when traited). Comes to 1 bleed tick per second when traited with recharge, and 0.8 bleeds per second when not traited.
If we are to ignore the cooldown on weapon swaps, the engineer has the Necromancer beat in long term damage if the necro combines all 3 AoE skills with youthful abandon. This is when things become much more complicated: we have to factor in procs.
Engineers get several procs that go along with grenades. Ignoring Incendiary Powder because engineers get many sources of burning outside of grenades, we have 2 procs that concern us:
Shrapnel: 15% chance, 12 seconds of bleed, occurs with every explosion.
Sharpshooter: 30% chance for 3 second bleed on critical hit.
Engineer grenades hit 3 times, and each of these has a chance to proc on use. It is also worth mentioning that the Sigil of Earth is much more likely to proc in these circumstances against a single target. For simplicity, I’ll just use a 25% crit rate for both classes, assuming that these are builds that have the relevant traits, but don’t bother building up too much precision. You may use different numbers if you like.
So, this means that each grenade, we get 12 × 0.15 = 1.8 bleed ticks per attack, coming to an additional 4.8 bleed ticks per attack factoring in all of the grenades. With Sharpshooter we have 0.3 × 0.25 × 3 = 0.225 bleed ticks per attack and on 3 grenades this comes to 0.675 bleed ticks per attack in total.
Necromancers themselves have a similar trait: barbed precision. This gives a 66% chance to inflict a 2 second bleed, and with a 25% crit rate this comes to 0.33 bleed ticks per attack. Since necromancers don’t get multiple attacks, this is only added to each of the bleed durations above.
Now, bleed ticks per attack and bleed ticks per second are not the same thing. If you attack more quickly than once a second, it goes up. If you attack slower than once a second, it goes down. So, for arguments sake, I will assume that the attacks are used approximately 0.75 seconds apart, increasing each of those bleed ticks per attack up by 33%. So, in total:
Engineers: 5.5 × 1.33 = 7.315 bleed ticks per second with grenades, and 16.315 bleed ticks per second with shrapnel grenade
Necromancer: 5.5 Bleed ticks per second with Mark of Blood, 2.5 with grasping dead, 1.4 with Enfeebling Blood.
EDIT: fixed a math error.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
(edited by Blood Red Arachnid.2493)
Because of this, engineers are really good at applying bleeds in an AoE. Their skills do more direct damage, apply more long term bleeds, and fly further. The disadvantage being that grenades are much harder to use. So, how is it that the Necromancer gets so much AoE focus? Well, that comes down to their ace move: Epidemic.
Something I didn’t include in this was the Necro auto attack, which fires off 2 × 5 bleeds every 1.25 seconds or so, and factoring barbed precision this is 9 bleed ticks per second. This is really good on a single target basis, but in AoE it isn’t that good at all, since the AoEs can hit up to 5 targets, making them 5 times better. However, in 1 vs. 1 the scepter is undoubtedly king for the Necromancer, since in long term it applies more bleeding and poison to boot. It is here that necromancers get access to something that engineers don’t: condition burst.
Engineer conditions are gradual by design. They’re good at AoE bleeds, but it takes awhile to truly build them up, and many times the RNG is not kind them. Engineers have readily available access to confusion, but not a lot of it, firing it off in short bursts as counter play more than as a source of damage. The main damage source for condition engineers comes from their incredible access to burning, and this doesn’t stack in intensity, so they can’t layer it up for greater damage.
Necromancers have the option to do two things. First, they have the option to layer up every condition they have at once. This takes a rather long combo to pull off (Grasping dead + enfeebling blood + weakening shroud + Dark Path + Mark of Blood + Putrid Mark + Signet of Spite OR Blood is Power) and that can be neutralized by good cleansing and dodge/blocks rather quickly. The second thing in their arsenal is Epidemic, which is the only technique in the game that acts as a force multiplier instead of an addition. Epidemic multiplies the damage done on one target to another, regardless of where the source of those conditions come from. Despite the fact that it is situational and unwieldy, Epidemic is arguably one of the strongest moves in the game, from both an offensive and defensive perspective.
This gives necromancers true killing power as far as a condition build goes. With the deadliest stun in game via Terror, they can lock down and burst down a single target, and with an elaborate chain + epidemic they can burst all conditions into a massive AoE.
This seems like it might be overpowered, but it really isn’t. In order to layer up massive terror, you opponent has to first be hit by it, not break out of it, and not have stability. A player with knowledge of positioning can stun break out of the combo then move out of optimal terror position, rendering the combo meaningless. When all is said and done, in both WvW and in sPVP I’ve only managed to use a full 7 second (not 100% duration) terror burst once, since most players are smart enough to know when it is coming, and to get out of the way / counter play when it does come.
With condition bursts, the fact remains that it takes forever for those conditions to actually inflict damage, even if you layer them up all at once. Counter-control and escapes completely mess up the combo, since you have to blow nearly every relevant cooldown to have meaningful condition burst, and if they happen to pack a total condition cleanse on themselves, then everything can be for not. Epidemic as a force multiplier only works against groups, so the necro always suffers from the threat of being focused down and controlled, and then with increased group cleansing there is always the threat that Epidemic will simply miss or be neutralized instantly.
I say this a lot, and I’m going to keep saying it: A condition necro is ultimately not in control of the fight. Their defense, their offense, both are in the opponents court. We just lay down our skills and see what happens, lacking a lot of the depth that other classes have in engagement.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
I have no idea how people are this clueless about Necro. Blows my mind.
If their range is brought to 600 to 900 on their best condi weapons and even globally, they will have to earn their place. That’s the most effective solution I can think of. The damage would be more telegraphed and if 2 Necros are on the same point blowing it up they will have to eat what they are sending out. That forces a heal and makes both teams go “Hmm.. if I have to eat this as a Necro wouldn’t an Engi make more sense right now?” That creates tradeoffs. There’s risk, which doesn’t exist on Necro right now.
You can be at range and then have a second life bar that, when timed with Spectral Armor, can eat burst incredibly well. The posts above don’t put this power into perspective. You can attack while you use that skill. You can dodge. You can fear. You can have full functionality of your class and not change anything about what you’re doing. What risk is there with that capability?
Engi would be the alternative to Necro for condi pressure if you want range. Would bombs suffer? No, because Engis have outs that Necros don’t and that makes them great at pushing far point. Would Bomb Engi replace necro? Hell no, because nobody can punk a Guardian like a Necro can and bunk Guards are VITAL in tpvp at midpoint.
See how that works? I hope Anet sees this logic
(edited by jmatb.6307)
I’ve seen AR engies, spirit rangers, stun-lock warriors, and s/d thieves do very well against the fotm necros. There are really good counters to condispam necros, and I’m sure there are counter-builds we have yet to see. Problem is that most people don’t make counter-builds for one specific type of class build, because they enter into a matchup where they don’t know if that build will be there.
Condispam necros are extremely good against the general builds that dominated the meta before necros were buffed. People will want to keep playing those general builds with the blind matchups, even though there are very good counters to condispam necros. They’ll just qq when their general build is strong or average against everything but is extremely weak against necros. Necros will seem like the problem to them because the builds that actually counter necros are not seen as generally viable. They won’t play counter-builds for condispam necros because it would be silly to play a build designed against one specific class-build when you don’t know whether you’ll be facing a condispam necro.
I’ve already made a thread suggesting a change to the way tournament matches begin (there should be an alternating character lock-in draft where both teams can see the builds). The tools for countering condispam necros are there. It makes me sad because there could be so many interesting builds but because the blind matchup system rewards generally good builds that’s all we’ll ever see.
(edited by Schlieffen.2054)
I have no idea how people are this clueless about Necro. Blows my mind.
If their range is brought to 600 to 900 on their best condi weapons and even globally, they will have to earn their place. That’s the easiest solution I can think of. The damage would be more telegraphed and if 2 Necros are on the same point blowing it up they will have to eat what they are sending out.
Engi would be the alternative to Necro for condi pressure if you want range. Would bombs suffer? No, because Engis have outs that Necros don’t and that makes them great at pushing far point. Would Bomb Engi replace necro? Hell no, because nobody can punk a Guardian like a Necro can and bunk Guards are VITAL in tpvp at midpoint.
See how that works? I hope Anet sees this logic
You’re so far off track it’s getting sad.
You do realise an engi can apply conditions with grenades, at a range of 1500 right. All aoe conditions, where as neco scepter only has Grasping Dead as an aoe, does crap base dmg and has a pretty useless #3 skill for a cond weapon (cept for maybe the lf gain).
Champion Phantom – Legionnaire – Genius – Magus
(edited by Glenn.3417)
I want to put heavy emphasize on why the old terror was so nice. Why it should not be nerfed (17%) nor made grandmaster trait. Necromancer have the least INCOMBAT survival tools of all professions. It’s cursing them, pressuring them and hoping we survive. The big hp pool + death shroud, gives us a nice ‘attrition headstart’, but can hardly be sustained. Ele has invulnerability, burning speed, rtl, thief has cloacking, all profession have sort of combat defence mechanics. When they use those, we necromancers are locked down with but only ONE choice. Fear them to prevent it. And before they can heal up again etc, making it also give some spike damage, to make this control ability more threatening. In pvp (before the last update) I felt quite balanced (yes we are easy to focus down), but in an even 3 vs 3 etc, if i timed my doom properly (NOT EARLY in the fight!, unless really necessary, say to escape a stunlocked 100blades), they would either win with 1k hp left, or die by just a fraction. It was always a close call. The moment necro is in downed state, in pvp he is in disadvantage. Other profession have heals, better damage on auto attack, mobility while downed etc. And the fear doesnt work versus downed, so we loose our 2nd ability usefullness also. It’s VITAL for a necro to win the battle before you will go downed. And IF you go downed the other guy must have low hp or you will be dead. That’s why (the old) Terror is such a exciting (and well balanced, old one I REPEAT), tool. It’s short, it’s easy to remove, or evade if you know it’s coming BUT when timed properly it can either win the fight, or loose it because you were focused to hard. LEAVE BURNING out of the equation. I don’t use it, because you are to ‘berserkery’ in that mode (easy to lock down, if you use it against a guardian he just removed all of the condition in a whimp, and you are garanteed dead). It’s a nice tool, say versus warrior, thief, rangers (last cause bad condi removal). Otherwise, it’s really not that impressive. But I agree it’s to bursty. And i really wouldn’t care if they removed it. If that means they reinstate old terror, (wich nefs overall condition pressure capability), i wouldnt mind at all. It would bring back the old and fun Necro.
Legendary weapons can be hidden now!
No excuse anymore for not giving ‘hide mounts’-option
No thanks to unidentified weapons.
No excuse anymore for not giving ‘hide mounts’-option
No thanks to unidentified weapons.
I have no idea how people are this clueless about Necro. Blows my mind.
If their range is brought to 600 to 900 on their best condi weapons and even globally, they will have to earn their place. That’s the easiest solution I can think of. The damage would be more telegraphed and if 2 Necros are on the same point blowing it up they will have to eat what they are sending out.
Engi would be the alternative to Necro for condi pressure if you want range. Would bombs suffer? No, because Engis have outs that Necros don’t and that makes them great at pushing far point. Would Bomb Engi replace necro? Hell no, because nobody can punk a Guardian like a Necro can and bunk Guards are VITAL in tpvp at midpoint.
See how that works? I hope Anet sees this logic
You’re so far off track it’s getting sad.
You do realise an engi can apply conditions with grenades, at a range of 1500 right. Seeing as you talk about range and conditions.
What do you not understand? 300 range means absolutely nothing in comparison to what Necros can do with it compared to Engis.
Grenades are pitiful in comparison to what you can do with marks and Scepter / Dagger right now. If you have to be at 600 to 900 range you have to earn that.
You can reflect grenades. A Feedback will make a stupid Nade Engi eat all of his nades. S/D autoattack is instant cast. Enfeebling Blood and Grasping Dead cannot be reflected. Marks affect a 180 radius from 1200 range, 240 radius if you trait it, and you can’t reflect them.
You can AoE fear 3 or 4 people at once with that kind of radius with Reaper’s Mark. You can put poison and chill on the same number. There is no reason whatsoever to bring a Nades Engi right now, and they have been dominant prior to this metagame.
That isn’t an accident. Midrange necro is a balanced Necro. Attrition from range is broken, especially now that burst does nothing to a spectrals Necro.
(edited by jmatb.6307)
I have no idea how people are this clueless about Necro. Blows my mind.
If their range is brought to 600 to 900 on their best condi weapons and even globally, they will have to earn their place. That’s the easiest solution I can think of. The damage would be more telegraphed and if 2 Necros are on the same point blowing it up they will have to eat what they are sending out.
Engi would be the alternative to Necro for condi pressure if you want range. Would bombs suffer? No, because Engis have outs that Necros don’t and that makes them great at pushing far point. Would Bomb Engi replace necro? Hell no, because nobody can punk a Guardian like a Necro can and bunk Guards are VITAL in tpvp at midpoint.
See how that works? I hope Anet sees this logic
You’re so far off track it’s getting sad.
You do realise an engi can apply conditions with grenades, at a range of 1500 right. Seeing as you talk about range and conditions.
What do you not understand? 300 range means absolutely nothing in comparison to what Necros can do with it compared to Engis.
Grenades are pitiful in comparison to what you can do with marks and Scepter / Dagger right now. If you have to be at 600 to 900 range you have to earn that.
You can reflect grenades. A Feedback will make a stupid Nade Engi eat all of his nades. S/D autoattack is instant cast. Enfeebling Blood and Grasping Dead cannot be reflected. Marks affect a 180 radius from 1200 range, 240 radius if you trait it, and you can’t reflect them.
You can AoE fear 3 or 4 people at once with that kind of radius with Reaper’s Mark. You can put poison and chill on the same number. There is no reason whatsoever to bring a Nades Engi right now, and they have been dominant prior to this metagame.
That isn’t an accident. Midrange necro is a balanced Necro. Attrition from range is broken, especially now that burst does nothing to a spectrals Necro.
5 words for you: learn 2 play classes & condition removal!
Champion Phantom – Legionnaire – Genius – Magus
Andele sorry dude you’re clueless.
Necros are very strong against burst with even a Rabid ammy with the DS direct damage fix. If they can do that on Rabid, what are they going to do in Shaman with sustain?
Having 1200 range with those tools is completely ridiculous.
what is a Necro going to do with Shaman amulet? All they have is regen and life siphons? The two heals that benefit the least from Healing Power…
Honestly, what is everyone referring to when they say “sustain”? Necro has basically zero ability to recover HP beyond their one viable heal on a 25 sec CD. Think of their HP like an hour glass. It can potentially trickle down slowly, but it definitely has a finite limit.
Well of Blood is a 9000 on you, 4500 to your teammates’ health heal if you do the math with just a Shaman Ammy. If you go Cleric’s you can get 11 thousand health back, and do a 5k aoe heal.
It takes time, but you have time in a teamfight with the way DS is now. It’s a second health bar that Spectral Walk and Armor easily replenish.
If you time Cleansing Conditions right, you will pretty much full heal with that much healing power.
I’m clueless
You’re not worth responding to at this point anybody who doesn’t see how broken Necros are is batkitten crazy.
You do not benefit from any healing while in DS. Also with shaman you lose the crit that allows these low skill necros to benefit from the RNG burn. What you are suggesting has no basis in the meta or reality. Necro are broken, their range is not. It was not problem before dumbfire and it wouldn’t be an issue if it was removed.
Black Avarice
Well of Blood is a 9000 on you, 4500 to your teammates’ health heal if you do the math with just a Shaman Ammy. If you go Cleric’s you can get 11 thousand health back, and do a 5k aoe heal.
It takes time, but you have time in a teamfight with the way DS is now. It’s a second health bar that Spectral Walk and Armor easily replenish.
If you time Cleansing Conditions right, you will pretty much full heal with that much healing power.
After your litany of posts, my guess is you play a guardian, and have never actually played a necromancer. There is a reason you don’t see a dagger or axe mh necromancer in tournament play. 900 range is hard enough when you have burst classes hammering you with leaps that cover that range and 1500 range engineers bombing you.
Please don’t post about how op necros are at max range. Any necro who sits in Staff all day is worthless. Staff is used when you can’t get to 900 for S/D and you flip to it for Mark of Blood and Staff 3 then flip back to Scepter for damage. You flip back to staff for utility and it goes on. We can’t spam all of our conditions from 1200 range, we can only hit you with a small bleed and chill. Corrupt boon occasionally, but to really hurt you we have to be 900 or closer so please play a necromancer before talking. We actually do a majority of damage with Wells which have a 900 range cast.
Please don’ talk about WoB as a legitimate heal. There is only one heal we use and it’s CC. WoB is only viable when you can stand still and near your team to get all of the heal. CC is just too good.
I’m clueless
You’re not worth responding to at this point anybody who doesn’t see how broken Necros are is batkitten crazy.
Your points are invalid. We are not broken because of range, because you suffer more damage the closer you get to us. We are broken because we push too much damage to fast, and if we can snowball to full DS with CD’s you have no shot. Please adjust your comments to reality.
One would think it goes without saying that you don’t use DS while the Well is down. >.>
And yes, shaman is used in reality you might want to look up some nobody scrub on SOAC Red called Zombify. (sarcasm).
You can have sustain on Necro. If people run no healing power on Necro and blame Anet that’s just a l2play issue.
One would think it goes without saying that you don’t use DS while the Well is down. >.>
And yes, shaman is used in reality you might want to look up some nobody scrub on SOAC Red called Zombify. (sarcasm).
You can have sustain on Necro. If people run no healing power on Necro and blame Anet that’s just a l2play issue.
Haha, he doesn’t regularly play with Shaman. He does it when he runs with someone who has regular access to group fury so he can get a little bit more from CC. You only need about 20 to 30 percent crit as a Necro when playing with someone who can buff you with fury.
Well of Blood is a 9000 on you, 4500 to your teammates’ health heal if you do the math with just a Shaman Ammy. If you go Cleric’s you can get 11 thousand health back, and do a 5k aoe heal.
It takes time, but you have time in a teamfight with the way DS is now. It’s a second health bar that Spectral Walk and Armor easily replenish.
If you time Cleansing Conditions right, you will pretty much full heal with that much healing power.
After your litany of posts, my guess is you play a guardian, and have never actually played a necromancer. There is a reason you don’t see a dagger or axe mh necromancer in tournament play. 900 range is hard enough when you have burst classes hammering you with leaps that cover that range and 1500 range engineers bombing you.
Please don’t post about how op necros are at max range. Any necro who sits in Staff all day is worthless. Staff is used when you can’t get to 900 for S/D and you flip to it for Mark of Blood and Staff 3 then flip back to Scepter for damage. You flip back to staff for utility and it goes on. We can’t spam all of our conditions from 1200 range, we can only hit you with a small bleed and chill. Corrupt boon occasionally, but to really hurt you we have to be 900 or closer so please play a necromancer before talking. We actually do a majority of damage with Wells which have a 900 range cast.
Please don’ talk about WoB as a legitimate heal. There is only one heal we use and it’s CC. WoB is only viable when you can stand still and near your team to get all of the heal. CC is just too good.
I’m not saying anybody gets stomped by a Staff at max range. Learn to read between the lines. Scepter is the problem. Signet of Spite is the problem. If all of that is at 600 to 900 range people can react to Necro.
If you lose range, then WoB becomes more important. They can tune that to make it better. The Staff at max range is a problem because you exert more control over a fight from range with that weapon than anything else anyone can come up with in the game. A 180 radius fear from 1200 range is absolutely ridiculous. Marks can be spammed from 1200 range for condi cleaving downed players. You can be running to another point and spamming the attacks behind you as you run to do that. It’s stupid.
Necro being midranged is balanced. It will not send them to the sewer you will still destroy Guardians, which is always important on any team comp.
(edited by jmatb.6307)
there is so much misinformation about necros in this thread from the nerf callers it is ridiculous…
the OP is not being objective in the slightest, perhaps he could add to his first post all the drawbacks and weaknesses to the build he is crying about?
Why wouldn’t he post this in the necro forums if it wasn’t just another nerf thread because people aren’t used to losing to necros?
How well does he know the class after playing one for only a couple days?
It is sad to see the devs are watching this thread in particular as part of their decision making process for class balance. It would be like Obama watching Fox news to gather information for all his decisions.
Why would you suggest nerfing scepter and staff range? The issue isn’t even related to these weapons as their ability to spread conditions is quite limited and on long cooldowns. If you issue is AE conditions and you want to range limit them, your target should be epidemic.
Is doomfire even the issue for the power build? I thought most still used close to death?
I’ve seen AR engies, spirit rangers, stun-lock warriors, and s/d thieves do very well against the fotm necros. There are really good counters to condispam necros, and I’m sure there are counter-builds we have yet to see. Problem is that most people don’t make counter-builds for one specific type of class build, because they enter into a matchup where they don’t know if that build will be there.
Condispam necros are extremely good against the general builds that dominated the meta before necros were buffed. People will want to keep playing those general builds with the blind matchups, even though there are very good counters to condispam necros. They’ll just qq when their general build is strong or average against everything but is extremely weak against necros. Necros will seem like the problem to them because the builds that actually counter necros are not seen as generally viable. They won’t play counter-builds for condispam necros because it would be silly to play a build designed against one specific class-build when you don’t know whether you’ll be facing a condispam necro.
I’ve already made a thread suggesting a change to the way tournament matches begin (there should be an alternating character lock-in draft where both teams can see the builds). The tools for countering condispam necros are there. It makes me sad because there could be so many interesting builds but because the system rewards generally good builds that’s all we’ll ever see.
i tried a necro mancer last night i think i was running 30/20/0/0/20 or 30/20/10 or something i can’t really remember. staff scepter + dagger had no clue what half my skills did and the sheer hurt i put out and the beating i could take before going down was phenomenal. if your burning trait is off cooldown you can bring a thief from 100 to 0 or force them to double shadowstep with scepter auto. a friend later pointed out that i had a wrong utility and i should have taken the fear wall and stood inside it this way melee can’t do anything to touch you and your only threat is from other ranged classes.
people have said stun lock warrior works well against this spec i’m not so sure as eles and guardians were mulch for the boon flip skill and warriors i’d just lay marks everywhere hit f1 while they tried to chain stuns (still doing extremely heavy damage with #5 and #4 or 3 i think) then switch to scepter and hit all five skills for the kills. this is without adding your elite (gain up to 30k+ health and 3000 toughness with condi ammy) into the mix.
i played this in a number of spvp games for about an hour or so and the only thing that successfully brought me down was another necro (with champion shadow title lol)
Hot joins don’t actually count as a legitmate way to show how op a class can be. I watched a dps guardian kill 4 guys at 1 time. I guess they must be op now.
I’m suggesting midrange as a theme for the class except things like Spectral Grasp, which would be totally useless if it didn’t have that range.
Epi being shorter range would be better too. So would corrupt boon. And if people are kiting you, DS #3 then 2 says hi. Boom you’re back up close doing work.
Ok, here’s the deal. I’m hearing different things from everyone I talk to.
1. Necro DS is too much and should be brought down
2. Necro damage is too much and should be brought down
3. Necro survivability is bad
Let me care to explain the differences in opinion: circumstance
Death Shroud can be quite nice in the right circumstances. DS literally doubles the Hit Points of the Necromancer (which is already high to begin with), and with further life force generation it increases their HP more and more. In small engagements, this is ridiculous. I don’t have a video of this, but I have an example:
In WvW I regularly have full Life Force because it is a lot easier to get there. Once while looking at the map and opening TS3, I heard my toon being attacked. It turned out that a mesmer had snuck up behind me and was attacking me. So I quickly changed windows, exited the map, and entered into combat. Sorry to say, this mesmer stood absolutely no chance. Their stealth did nothing against my marks + life transfer + tainted shackles, they couldn’t escape due to dark path, my bone minions and flesh golem bashed on that poor mesmer like they were fodder, and after I began to terror burst it was over.
The fact is that this player didn’t stand a chance: I had so much more HP that in an even fight I would’ve stomped them into the ground with barely a scratch.
But this is the ultimate two flaws of Death Shroud: it is inconvenient, and it is finite. You have to build specifically for Life Force generation, with many builds not capable of doing so. In lacking builds, this results in DS being a non-factor in their defense. I don’t have a lot of Life Force generation on my condition builds because I opt for things like Reaper’s Protection and Spiteful Spirit. The second issue is that the finite nature of DS puts a hard limit toward its damage mitigation.
When compared to blocks, dodges, and invulnerability the finite nature of DS is both good and bad. In 1 vs. 1 scenarios, great life force generation or a full bar gives a ton of survivability, because the scale of damage you are mitigating per second is quite small. One player can only dish out so much damage in that 2 second duration that most blocks take up. However, blocks and dodges don’t have a cap on the amount of damage they can mitigate. If you block at the right time, you can avoid a nuclear holocaust This makes blocks and dodges superior in large engagements, consisting of 3 or more players on any one side. Here, the damage and control quickly escalates, and when focused those block and dodges mitigate more damage than your whole HP bar. Death Shroud… does not do this. It is a limited source of damage absorption that grows slowly, so it is quickly eaten up by enemy DPS while offering no direct immunity from any of their attacks. The conditions they apply are still there, the control that hits you still lingers, the damage is taken away from DS, never to return.
In these multiple engagements is where we get complaints that Necros are too vulnerable. Weakness and protection can reduce some of the damage done, but the damage isn’t truly stopped, and those can be stripped away or cleansed quickly. The necro can’t escape, which is another way to mitigate focus fire, and players know this. I can’t count how many times in sPVP or WvW I’ve rounded a corner only to see 4 guys that proceed to kill me quickly, despite Weakening Shroud + Spectral armor at the same time. The necromancer is completely helpless in these circumstances. It is for this reason that in tPVP they always focus on the Necromancer first. Not because they are the most dangerous class, but because they are the easiest class to kill, instantly balancing the fight in the favor of whomever killed the Necro.
The lack of healing on all builds not completely dedicated to vampirism doesn’t help, either. This adds to the finite nature of Necromancer survivability.
As for a fix for this problem, I’m not sure. By default I would say to just give necromancers the tools they are missing and be done with it, but you guys said you don’t want to do that. Instead, we are left with a class where we have to keep ramping up their damage or their durability so they can survive team engagements, but this makes them ever more overpowered in small engagements.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
after reading more posts it really seems like the cry train is fueled by people who don’t want to change their spec to deal with a new meta.
when people start building for stability and cleansing again this spec will fade faster than DS pre bug fix.
Marks can be spammed from 1200 range for condi cleaving downed players. You can be running to another point and spamming the attacks behind you as you run to do that. It’s stupid.
Marks doesn’t affect directly downed players COFFF! COFF!!
ALPHA, BETA, several months, … 1 Year later…“When it’s ready”[cit.]
(edited by Luke.4562)
Poison doesn’t affect res? Fearing people trying to res them doesn’t work? >>
there is so much misinformation about necros in this thread from the nerf callers it is ridiculous…
I know the feeling. I spend two posts doing the math behind the AoE condition potential between Necromancers and Engineers, and then people still follow up by saying grenades are horrible. I get the feeling what is happening is the zealots/trolls have tunnel vision, and are ignoring everyone else other than the specific guy they are fighting with. They enter into this topic with an agenda to nerf/buff necros, and refuse to budge from it.
Sad part is, this is what it seems like for discussions on anything nowadays. From federal politics to inter-office politics. I swear it feels like I’m the last sane person on the planet sometimes.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
Poison doesn’t affect res? Fearing people trying to res them doesn’t work? >>
Players rezzing don’t have stability? Fear lasts more than 1.5 seconds? You don’t have a cleanse? The other players on your team haven’t interrupted or used a pet to trigger the Mark? You don’t have a kb or guardian bubble to prevent the damage? You are playing solo in a five man team and so you are the only one rezzing with no one dropping an aoe heal?
I’m suggesting midrange as a theme for the class except things like Spectral Grasp, which would be totally useless if it didn’t have that range.
Epi being shorter range would be better too. So would corrupt boon. And if people are kiting you, DS #3 then 2 says hi. Boom you’re back up close doing work.
Except we have no access to any tools (which other classes do have) that would allow you to stay in mid range and do damage without getting knocked around, stunned, and no blocks, evasions, or invulnerability outside of DS. Your logic is flawed in the sense that you havent’ actively played the necromancer long enough to see how easy they are to kill and how the reason they choose 900 is because the necro has to flee long before the fight is over because we have no method of escaping if the fight goes sour.
Poison doesn’t affect res? Fearing people trying to res them doesn’t work? >>
Don’t change your cards, ignorance is ignorance. Bear with it.
ALPHA, BETA, several months, … 1 Year later…“When it’s ready”[cit.]
Again, if Necros were mid range on Scepter and Staff they would be more predictable and subject to the same AoE they are spreading if another Necro’s on the team. They would balance each other out because with 1200 range both necros can be way apart and not be affected by their burst.
Also Mesmers would be all over them, as would Longbow Warrior, Clusterbomb, Nade / Power Rifle Engis, and S/D Eles. They would have to use DS to try to close the gap, which favors kiting.
I still think damage can be reduced, but having to be closer will make it more challenging for Necros to do what they do. Attrition from range is OP. Attrition from midrange can be countered.
Yeah but you force one of the squishiest classes once CCed into CC range constantly. Take any CC heavy class against a necro running the standard 30/30/10 build and the fight is a joke. 2v1 and you can never lose against a necro. The only defense that necro has it is cripple/chill you and run. If we did this terribly stupid nerf you would make necros an even easier kill then they already are.
You make the class USELESS in pve as well. I know most of the people here don’t care about pve and I hardly ever do it myself, but I have played necro in pve plenty of times. Has anyone else played a class with no real way to dodge 20k shots constantly? No? Okay now imagine needing to stand right next to that mob to do damage and not being able to dodge or use any skills to mitigate damage more than one a minute. Oh shoot, we now have a useless class.
Please think before you talk about the silliest nerf in the world. IDK how you can possibly think 600 range is okay for a ranged class with limited survivability outside a skill that needs to be traited for a 48s cooldown and 6s protection.
Ferguson’s Crossing→ SoS→ DR→ EBay
Well of Blood is a 9000 on you, 4500 to your teammates’ health heal if you do the math with just a Shaman Ammy. If you go Cleric’s you can get 11 thousand health back, and do a 5k aoe heal.
It takes time, but you have time in a teamfight with the way DS is now. It’s a second health bar that Spectral Walk and Armor easily replenish.
If you time Cleansing Conditions right, you will pretty much full heal with that much healing power.
After your litany of posts, my guess is you play a guardian, and have never actually played a necromancer. There is a reason you don’t see a dagger or axe mh necromancer in tournament play. 900 range is hard enough when you have burst classes hammering you with leaps that cover that range and 1500 range engineers bombing you.
Please don’t post about how op necros are at max range. Any necro who sits in Staff all day is worthless. Staff is used when you can’t get to 900 for S/D and you flip to it for Mark of Blood and Staff 3 then flip back to Scepter for damage. You flip back to staff for utility and it goes on. We can’t spam all of our conditions from 1200 range, we can only hit you with a small bleed and chill. Corrupt boon occasionally, but to really hurt you we have to be 900 or closer so please play a necromancer before talking. We actually do a majority of damage with Wells which have a 900 range cast.
Please don’ talk about WoB as a legitimate heal. There is only one heal we use and it’s CC. WoB is only viable when you can stand still and near your team to get all of the heal. CC is just too good.
I’m not saying anybody gets stomped by a Staff at max range. Learn to read between the lines. Scepter is the problem. Signet of Spite is the problem. If all of that is at 600 to 900 range people can react to Necro.
If you lose range, then WoB becomes more important. They can tune that to make it better. The Staff at max range is a problem because you exert more control over a fight from range with that weapon than anything else anyone can come up with in the game. A 180 radius fear from 1200 range is absolutely ridiculous. Marks can be spammed from 1200 range for condi cleaving downed players. You can be running to another point and spamming the attacks behind you as you run to do that. It’s stupid.
Necro being midranged is balanced. It will not send them to the sewer you will still destroy Guardians, which is always important on any team comp.
Actually, it doesn’t do anything but make the more susceptible to burst that they can’t avoid while also making them do more damage to you. Alot of the skills necro has is actually harder to avoid when he is closer in the fight. Doom is stronger, weakening shroud is stronger and so is mark of blood. Then you have Torment of course which is also 600 range. The thing is, it wouldn’t help you with a range decrease, because alot of good things about necro for bursting involves us getting closer to you. making us locked there when using scepter just means you get bursted faster because we have no reason to stay back. And CC won’t be changed for well of blood because its a strong condi cleanse.
edit: I forgot to mention that playing necromancer would basically extremely difficult after that since they dont have any easy stun breaking blinks like mesmer or elementalist which is mostly compared to because they all are caster classes but these two have the ability to avoid an infinite amount of damage at certain time spans allowing them to escape while the necro (even though he has the new spectral armor) is still vulnerable to all CCs while close. Then necros will just ask for more survivability than they are getting, thus creating the juggernaut necro, unbeatable in 1v1s.
Khloe Deschanel – Human Necromancer/ Ami Ginju – Human Ranger [DOLO] -SBI
I stream sometimes: http://www.twitch.tv/kidtofu/
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum”
I stream sometimes: http://www.twitch.tv/kidtofu/
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum”
(edited by Loyo.8526)
I’ve seen AR engies, spirit rangers, stun-lock warriors, and s/d thieves do very well against the fotm necros. There are really good counters to condispam necros, and I’m sure there are counter-builds we have yet to see. Problem is that most people don’t make counter-builds for one specific type of class build, because they enter into a matchup where they don’t know if that build will be there.
Condispam necros are extremely good against the general builds that dominated the meta before necros were buffed. People will want to keep playing those general builds with the blind matchups, even though there are very good counters to condispam necros. They’ll just qq when their general build is strong or average against everything but is extremely weak against necros. Necros will seem like the problem to them because the builds that actually counter necros are not seen as generally viable. They won’t play counter-builds for condispam necros because it would be silly to play a build designed against one specific class-build when you don’t know whether you’ll be facing a condispam necro.
I’ve already made a thread suggesting a change to the way tournament matches begin (there should be an alternating character lock-in draft where both teams can see the builds). The tools for countering condispam necros are there. It makes me sad because there could be so many interesting builds but because the system rewards generally good builds that’s all we’ll ever see.
i tried a necro mancer last night i think i was running 30/20/0/0/20 or 30/20/10 or something i can’t really remember. staff scepter + dagger had no clue what half my skills did and the sheer hurt i put out and the beating i could take before going down was phenomenal. if your burning trait is off cooldown you can bring a thief from 100 to 0 or force them to double shadowstep with scepter auto. a friend later pointed out that i had a wrong utility and i should have taken the fear wall and stood inside it this way melee can’t do anything to touch you and your only threat is from other ranged classes.
people have said stun lock warrior works well against this spec i’m not so sure as eles and guardians were mulch for the boon flip skill and warriors i’d just lay marks everywhere hit f1 while they tried to chain stuns (still doing extremely heavy damage with #5 and #4 or 3 i think) then switch to scepter and hit all five skills for the kills. this is without adding your elite (gain up to 30k+ health and 3000 toughness with condi ammy) into the mix.
i played this in a number of spvp games for about an hour or so and the only thing that successfully brought me down was another necro (with champion shadow title lol)
Oh I’m not saying Necro isn’t strong. I picked it up for the specific purpose to find a way to counter it and I know how strong it is. I’m just saying that I have come across certain builds, AR engie with high health pool elixir c and stun break, that condispam necros are just bad against. I also play an engie though and to build that sort of AR engie you are have to make sacrifices that make you weaker against non-necros. The AR build that counters the condispam necro so well, isn’t a great build if there’s no condispam necro to counter. So people don’t run those builds and don’t build comps specifically to counter condi-cleave comps. A group of Spirit Ranger, 2xAR engies, and 2 burst classes with good CC will destroy a condi-cleave comp.
My whole point is that the reason we don’t see comps that steamroll a 2xfotm necro group is because it requires specialization of builds to counter the fotm necro group. The problem is that there’s no place for counter-specialization in tPvP right now. If Necros are deemed to be OP, then I would advocate for 1. changing tPvP so that counter-specializing has a place, and 2. giving other professions the tools, if more are necessary, to trait in order to better counter condi-cleave comps.
All this calling for nerfs is the wrong way to go about it. Bunker guardian has been in every group comp since the start of this game. Boring. Condispam necro comes along and is a huge threat to bunker guards. Exciting. Don’t kill condispam necros off (boring), make it possible to counter-build them (exciting).
Why are people posting number logs like we’re talking about stand and cast pve, this is spvp, 10% extra bleed damage isn’t going to do anything to help our shortcoming in pvp
Why are people posting number logs like we’re talking about stand and cast pve, this is spvp, 10% extra bleed damage isn’t going to do anything to help our shortcoming in pvp
If you are talking to me, then it is simply objectivity. I refer to my analysis as potential, largely because there are countless ways things can go wrong. Regardless of circumstances, the potential skill exists, and player skill allows for greater achievement of that potential.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
True jmatb, there are no insta ress abilities in game, there is no stability, etc. You just try really really hard to make it look like this: if enemy team has a necro, you can’t win, because he’s sitting at 1200 range soloing your team with burst condition damage, and he’s like untouchable, even if you manage to complete the jumping puzzle to get to the necro, then subject alpha fight starts.
Staff on any class is 1200 range weapon. Sceptre is 900. But no, you have this BRILLIANT idea to force the unmovable object (necromancer – aka lack of mobility) into 600 range for using it’s offensive and defensive abilities.
Why are people posting number logs like we’re talking about stand and cast pve, this is spvp, 10% extra bleed damage isn’t going to do anything to help our shortcoming in pvp
If you are talking to me, then it is simply objectivity. I refer to my analysis as potential, largely because there are countless ways things can go wrong. Regardless of circumstances, the potential skill exists, and player skill allows for greater achievement of that potential.
Please tell me the potential of a class who has meagre practical access to stability [in terms of actually putting it to use] at the cost of up to 50% of their ehp, versus the other professions whom all have better practical access mixed with hard walling abilities and escapes required for tournaments
I’d love to hear it, really