Guild Wars 2

TyrDaishi.1057:

I would highly recommand to ignore “FractalChaos” from now on in this discussion since he/she/it is obviously a troll. He is opposing everyone just for the sake of the argument, and he is not doing such a good job doing so.

I besieged the central keep of an offensive bl yesterday, and the the time inbetween the real fights where boring and stupid. AC Killzone on our Treb build-sites, AC Killzone in the Central keep from the enemy. Nothing happened for a long time (even given the fact that the keep had no upgrades). We lost a view more friendlys then usual when we finally captured the keep, but we where only able to do so because the enemy didn’t placed his siege weapons too smart and countered our trebs too late.

If our frenemies would have reacted faster it would have been impossible to capture the keep. There is usually just not enough manpower and supplies to besiege a fortress from more then 2 entrys. And if you split your troops too much it’s way to easy to defeat the smaller groups if you make fast strikes from the keep. It is and will be completly doggy doggy kitten smitten. French chicken turtles are french chicken turtles. And you just gave them the excuse to stay in their towers forever and ever. Because, y’know, the frenchies love to scratch the mold from Tower/Keepwalls and hug the cold dead stones inside. End of story. (This is NOT applying to all french, I like a whole lot o’ em who are insane fighters).

I’m actually trying to help you.

I oppose anyone whose position is based on hearsay and lack of evidence. I don’t care if I’m personally right or wrong. Really. If tomorrow Anet comes out and says “Arrow Carts are accounting for far too many victories in WvW; our recent change to arrow carts will be rolled back pending more data”, I’m not going to hide. I’ll be here, and my response will be “Hmm. Really? Oh well.”

If you think I’m wrong, if you think arrow carts are overpowered and ruining WvW, if you think ArenaNet has to roll back this change, if you’re really serious about that; prove it.

Don’t focus on me personally, don’t ignore every bit of evidence that contradicts you; prove ArenaNet wrong by proving that ACs have butchered WvW. Do yourselves a favor, too, prove it with hard evidence, things we can all see and judge, and not “I heard Guild X don’t like WvW anymore, Anet suxxorz!!”

Or just keep playing Chicken Little on the forums. Up to you.

Hickeroar.9734:

VOLKON.1290:

Haven’t seen open field combat destroyed to be honest. I’ve seen tower defenses splatter invaders, but not open field stuff. Now, if someone dropping an AC in the open field is indeed “breaking” open field combat then all I can offer to do is slowly shake my head at the dead people that failed to realize there’s a minimum distance for ACs as well.

Try running over 3500 range while crippled and in the middle of a fight. Not gonna happen. You’re gonna be dead LONG before you get out of range.

I’ve also seen tower defenses get splattered by ACs planted outside the walls.

You obviously either don’t play much WvW at all…or your experience is so silo-ed to one type of play that you haven’t experienced the devastating effects of this change.

Hmm… maybe you’re right, maybe I don’t play enough WvW. Maybe I’m also capable of tossing aside conditions, dodging and being mobile in combat, but nah… that’s probably not it. I certainly don’t play enough WvW. Whichever it is, I haven’t seen open field ACs being a problem at all. Makes you wonder if it’s the ACs that are at fault, doesn’t it?

DeWolfe.2174:

Make the population on sPvP maps larger to suit them. This way they can do their thing without spoiling WvW, please??

There’s trebuchets in Battle of Kyhlo for you to man.

Terkov.4138:

I really hope all the ppl saying they will quit GW2, will really quit

One can only hope…

Thanks for finally replying. Even though your reply leaves me with more questions than answers its a good start.

Just a few points.

1) People were allready using ballistas and catas to destroy siege before the update. This is therefore not new tactic to people who play wvw for hours and hours everyday. A simple example would be the use of ac and ballistas to destroy the trebs in garrison (on the cliff) which treb the bay walls, or using ballistas on outer hills wall to clear the inner. There are many more examples of instances where siege is used to destroy other siege. Players didnt need this AC update to do that allready. Oh and moving out the way when siege is falling on our heads…did you really say that?

2) Having arrowcarts control an area through damage is fair enough. Having those arrowcarts dominate an area so much that nothing or no one can survive is not really what you are aiming for i believe. The balance should be players and siege holding a door/wall breach and not only a few players on siege.

3) Holism (Holistic) – the theory that certain wholes are to be regarded as greater than than the sum of their parts. While you are undergoing your review of siege please do not forget that the players of this game are an integral part of the whole. Without the players there is no game. Please consult more with us. There are many noteworthy guilds with extremely competant leaders who would be more than willing to help you test and finalise certain parts of updates.

While i personally am happy to see that you are going to undertake certain changes to the latest update quickly it still saddens me that you are develpoing the game to be more and more siege orientated. Keep a balance, let us fight.

VOLKON.1290:

Hickeroar.9734:

VOLKON.1290:

Haven’t seen open field combat destroyed to be honest. I’ve seen tower defenses splatter invaders, but not open field stuff. Now, if someone dropping an AC in the open field is indeed “breaking” open field combat then all I can offer to do is slowly shake my head at the dead people that failed to realize there’s a minimum distance for ACs as well.

Try running over 3500 range while crippled and in the middle of a fight. Not gonna happen. You’re gonna be dead LONG before you get out of range.

I’ve also seen tower defenses get splattered by ACs planted outside the walls.

You obviously either don’t play much WvW at all…or your experience is so silo-ed to one type of play that you haven’t experienced the devastating effects of this change.

Hmm… maybe you’re right, maybe I don’t play enough WvW. Maybe I’m also capable of tossing aside conditions, dodging and being mobile in combat, but nah… that’s probably not it. I certainly don’t play enough WvW. Whichever it is, I haven’t seen open field ACs being a problem at all. Makes you wonder if it’s the ACs that are at fault, doesn’t it?

Well, you kinda answered my question. If you don’t see open field ACs in group fights as a problem, then you haven’t faced them.

Either that or you’re just trolling.

Arkard.3970:

DeWolfe.2174:

Devon, please do not destroy WvW by listening to the very vocal minority. WvW is the only place siege exist. I love using siege and it’s THE ONLY place we can. WvW is NOT the place for small GvG fighting. That is the main problem here. Specific guilds trying to change every aspect of the game to suit themselves. And, these individuals that believe they have skill because they press a number for a skill.

Make the population on sPvP maps larger to suit them. This way they can do their thing without spoiling WvW, please

I’m sorry, the fact that you mention that siege can only be used in WvW shows a lack of knowledge. There’s siege in PvE. There’s seige in SPvP. Please don’t claim to be the majority when you obviously don’t know what you’re talking about.

Oh God, you call the treb in sPvP using siege? Siege in PvE, that is even more laughable! Here, I’ll just sit in the mist and go pew pew against the targets, right? That’s using siege to you?

Devon, do you see my point? If you back down on siege now, these folks will just keep badgering and squawking until all siege was worthless.

DevonCarver.5370:

. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas. Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts.

You have to put in mind that many of the arrowcarts are in locations were they cannot be hit/destroyed.

Loken.9724:

Just wait until 100 man zergs realize just how many AC’s they can drop on demand in the open..

Split your zerg into 3 groups (WvW is all about “skill” and “coordination” so this should be easy, right?)

1- Send one group left, another right, another down the middle.

2- As soon as you see the first AC go down, rush it. ACs have a minimum range and cannot fire on people standing right next to the operator. They also don’t work so well if the operator’s dead.

3- If, by some miracle, they actually get one or two ACs built, they won’t have a single large zerg to shoot at; they have 3 separate targets (remember, left, right AND center). 3 targets = spreading their damage thinner

I’ve done it. It works and is scary effective…mainly because the zerg dropping the AC is expecting us to do something really dumb like, I dunno, veil and then charge into them in one big blob.

How stupid would that be, right?

Hickeroar.9734:

VOLKON.1290:

Hickeroar.9734:

VOLKON.1290:

Haven’t seen open field combat destroyed to be honest. I’ve seen tower defenses splatter invaders, but not open field stuff. Now, if someone dropping an AC in the open field is indeed “breaking” open field combat then all I can offer to do is slowly shake my head at the dead people that failed to realize there’s a minimum distance for ACs as well.

Try running over 3500 range while crippled and in the middle of a fight. Not gonna happen. You’re gonna be dead LONG before you get out of range.

I’ve also seen tower defenses get splattered by ACs planted outside the walls.

You obviously either don’t play much WvW at all…or your experience is so silo-ed to one type of play that you haven’t experienced the devastating effects of this change.

Hmm… maybe you’re right, maybe I don’t play enough WvW. Maybe I’m also capable of tossing aside conditions, dodging and being mobile in combat, but nah… that’s probably not it. I certainly don’t play enough WvW. Whichever it is, I haven’t seen open field ACs being a problem at all. Makes you wonder if it’s the ACs that are at fault, doesn’t it?

Well, you kinda answered my question. If you don’t see open field ACs in group fights as a problem, then you haven’t faced them.

Either that or you’re just trolling.

Could also be a question of servers. I don’t personally see them deployed like that in T1. Doesn’t mean they’re not there, but they’re certainly not prevalent. I have seen them set up, for example, north of Sunny defending some trebs attacking Sunny. They haven’t been all that problematic to remove with a little forethought and a multi-pronged attack, and that’s if you don’t have your own siege in the tower to knock them down for you. Hell, it was… day before yesterday I think… there were four trebs hitting Sunny with a couple ACs covering them set up behind them a bit. I circled around from the north while our main forces pushed in, through the guys on the ACs off the cliff and started whacking on the siege. It was a good time.

alkalone.5798:

It’s very time to do something about AC?
All of us are complaining, what ArenaNet is waiting ?
Let’s nerf it !

No, some of you are complaining. You’re just being very loud about it.

DeWolfe.2174:

Arkard.3970:

DeWolfe.2174:

Devon, please do not destroy WvW by listening to the very vocal minority. WvW is the only place siege exist. I love using siege and it’s THE ONLY place we can. WvW is NOT the place for small GvG fighting. That is the main problem here. Specific guilds trying to change every aspect of the game to suit themselves. And, these individuals that believe they have skill because they press a number for a skill.

Make the population on sPvP maps larger to suit them. This way they can do their thing without spoiling WvW, please

I’m sorry, the fact that you mention that siege can only be used in WvW shows a lack of knowledge. There’s siege in PvE. There’s seige in SPvP. Please don’t claim to be the majority when you obviously don’t know what you’re talking about.

Oh God, you call the treb in sPvP using siege? Siege in PvE, that is even more laughable! Here, I’ll just sit in the mist and go pew pew against the targets, right? That’s using siege to you?

Devon, do you see my point? If you back down on siege now, these folks will just keep badgering and squawking until all siege was worthless.

Actually, yes, the treb in sPvP is using seige. A well used treb can turn around a match or dominate one. PvE seige is indeed laughable, but the point was you have no idea what you’re talking about – i.e. that WvW is the only place to use seige. Your response, especially about trebbing in sPvP just underlines this.

DevonCarver.5370:

We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

My dear dev,

Are you trolling on us or what?

Thanks

Silver.9084:

You have to put in mind that many of the arrowcarts are in locations were they cannot be hit/destroyed.

At which point they can only hit the door. If they make it such that it deals little damage to flame rams and golems, then it won’t matter if they cannot be targeted. The ones that can be built on 3rd floor SMC would be rebuffed simply by lowering the range.

As it was, before this patch, even if the siege was manned, golems walking up to your gate was pretty much unstoppable because AC damage to golems was not only nerfed but almost entirely inconsequential. Nerf damage to rams, but golems are another story because that’s literally a “throw money at it” problem and has little to nothing to do with PvP.

Svarty.8019:

Nightingale.8364:

Adapt or die. Couldnt agree more, [..]
Easy mode with a vengeance.

Easy mode too hard for you?

Hmm…these Gunnar’s Hold people. I like the cut of their jib. Sound like worthy adversaries.

FractalChaos.6539:

alkalone.5798:

It’s very time to do something about AC?
All of us are complaining, what ArenaNet is waiting ?
Let’s nerf it !

No, some of you are complaining. You’re just being very loud about it.

The squeaky wheel gets the nerfs, eh?

I play on NA t1 and have been on both the side that tries to use AC in open field battle (with WM) and the side that tries to destroy opposing zerg (with KnT against TW) that uses AC in open field battle. While it adds some elements in open field battle, it is certainly not as game breaking as some people here tries to make it sound. We lost the field battle where we tried to use AC and won the field battle when the opposing side tried to use AC.

Tearofsoul.9843:

DevonCarver.5370:

We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

My dear dev,

Are you trolling on us or what?

Thanks

Geek time: historic Hwacha and Ballistas had roughly the same range. Not that the Hwacha arrow rockets could fire through walls or anything like that though.

DeWolfe.2174:

Devon, please do not destroy WvW by listening to the very vocal minority. WvW is the only place siege exist. I love using siege and it’s THE ONLY place we can. WvW is NOT the place for small GvG fighting. That is the main problem here. Specific guilds trying to change every aspect of the game to suit themselves. And, these individuals that believe they have skill because they press a number for a skill.

Make the population on sPvP maps larger to suit them. This way they can do their thing without spoiling WvW, please??

I really wish we could stomp this stupid suggestion once and for all. Every discussion about GvG always ends in someone telling folks to take it to sPvP environment. If you spent any time at all in sPvP or farther then 10 feet from a zerg you would know that the two are not the same and sPvP is not conducive to what people are looking for.

WvW is about being inclusive of all play styles, be it solo, small group, 20 man squad, giant 70+ zerg. There is a role for each of those play styles within WvW. If WvW is only about siege and objectives, then why not just make DAoC style battlegrounds with one keep in the middle and we just all fight over it? Why have space to roam? Supply camps to defend? Sentries and dolyaks for solo’s to kill? Why make scouting important? WvW would be greatly diminished without all of these things, yet you want all of WvW to be ONLY focused on sieging an objective? Seems extremely short sighted to me.

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

blink

…

Really?

A) That’s me dancing in the video as arrow carts barely hurt me. I frapsed that fight.
B) I already mentioned the rams were dropped far too early. It was a bad move. Four people died and the other 20 or so stayed back and lived. 4 people died out of a possible 25. Not exactly a slaughter, is it?
C) The commanders did not “turn tail and run”; they needed supply to build catas and decided to go get some. It’s clearly visible in my chat window; “Ok, gonna resupply and try this again” That’s not a rout; that’s smart.

However, given that you didn’t read my earlier post about the video, given that you didn’t even know it was made by me, and given that you think the attack broke in a panic and ran when it’s quite obvious we didn’t…yeah, you’re kinda clueless.

A) No, I knew full well the video was made by you, that’s why I called you a kitten.
B) It should come as no surprise to anyone at all that if you stay outside the arrow cart range, they won’t do much damage to you. The arrow carts were obviously focusing the gate, and the people who approached the gate popped almost instantly. Just because 20 people stood outside the AC focus doesn’t mean they could have made it past the choke alive.
C) Call it smart if it helps you sleep at night, but 3 commanders showing up to a tower, dropping siege, seeing that siege destroyed, then breaking ranks and leaving the tower with an enormous tail is, by definition, a rout. If the video continued to show you returning with more supply and successfully taking the tower, that would be a different issue…but strangely you didn’t include that part.

Also, I didn’t say you broke in a panic, I said you fled, which you can deny if you’d like, but it’s clearly visible in the video.

The only thing your video showed was that your commanders started a siege woefully unprepared and undersupplied, and your players would rather dance around with 8 supply than build the siege their commander placed. To be honest, the arrow carts had very little to do with it.

1- I am getting hit repeatedly by ACs. Don’t pretend you can’t see it. Even when they do focus on me, I’m able to heal through it quite easily. You’re either lying or intellectually dishonest on this point.

2- Since I feel fairly confident that no arrow cart is going to kill me. I am going to spend the day frapsing videos of me standing in massive arrow cart fire and living. I want to see how you’ll explain away 30 or 40 videos showing exactly the same thing; someone getting wailed on with arrow carts and not dying. Cliffside, Garrison, Hill, Bay, Sunny, 2 arrow carts, six arrow carts., eight arrow carts…..it won’t matter. I won’t die.

FractalChaos.6539:

Someone getting wailed on with arrow carts and not dying. Cliffside, Garrison, Hill, Bay, Sunny, 2 arrow carts, six arrow carts., eight arrow carts…..it won’t matter. I won’t die.

Are you sure you can even handle 4 ACs?

Niim.9260:

DeWolfe.2174:

Devon, please do not destroy WvW by listening to the very vocal minority. WvW is the only place siege exist. I love using siege and it’s THE ONLY place we can. WvW is NOT the place for small GvG fighting. That is the main problem here. Specific guilds trying to change every aspect of the game to suit themselves. And, these individuals that believe they have skill because they press a number for a skill.

Make the population on sPvP maps larger to suit them. This way they can do their thing without spoiling WvW, please??

I really wish we could stomp this stupid suggestion once and for all. Every discussion about GvG always ends in someone telling folks to take it to sPvP environment. If you spent any time at all in sPvP or farther then 10 feet from a zerg you would know that the two are not the same and sPvP is not conducive to what people are looking for.

WvW is about being inclusive of all play styles, be it solo, small group, 20 man squad, giant 70+ zerg. There is a role for each of those play styles within WvW. If WvW is only about siege and objectives, then why not just make DAoC style battlegrounds with one keep in the middle and we just all fight over it? Why have space to roam? Supply camps to defend? Sentries and dolyaks for solo’s to kill? Why make scouting important? WvW would be greatly diminished without all of these things, yet you want all of WvW to be ONLY focused on sieging an objective? Seems extremely short sighted to me.

If adding a legitimate, polished (read: stable, Arenanet!), playable Guild vs Guild option will redirect all the people who want to WvW without those bothersome siege weapons or buildings to capture…I’m all for it!

FractalChaos.6539:

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

blink

…

Really?

A) That’s me dancing in the video as arrow carts barely hurt me. I frapsed that fight.
B) I already mentioned the rams were dropped far too early. It was a bad move. Four people died and the other 20 or so stayed back and lived. 4 people died out of a possible 25. Not exactly a slaughter, is it?
C) The commanders did not “turn tail and run”; they needed supply to build catas and decided to go get some. It’s clearly visible in my chat window; “Ok, gonna resupply and try this again” That’s not a rout; that’s smart.

However, given that you didn’t read my earlier post about the video, given that you didn’t even know it was made by me, and given that you think the attack broke in a panic and ran when it’s quite obvious we didn’t…yeah, you’re kinda clueless.

A) No, I knew full well the video was made by you, that’s why I called you a kitten.
B) It should come as no surprise to anyone at all that if you stay outside the arrow cart range, they won’t do much damage to you. The arrow carts were obviously focusing the gate, and the people who approached the gate popped almost instantly. Just because 20 people stood outside the AC focus doesn’t mean they could have made it past the choke alive.
C) Call it smart if it helps you sleep at night, but 3 commanders showing up to a tower, dropping siege, seeing that siege destroyed, then breaking ranks and leaving the tower with an enormous tail is, by definition, a rout. If the video continued to show you returning with more supply and successfully taking the tower, that would be a different issue…but strangely you didn’t include that part.

Also, I didn’t say you broke in a panic, I said you fled, which you can deny if you’d like, but it’s clearly visible in the video.

The only thing your video showed was that your commanders started a siege woefully unprepared and undersupplied, and your players would rather dance around with 8 supply than build the siege their commander placed. To be honest, the arrow carts had very little to do with it.

1- I am getting hit repeatedly by ACs. Don’t pretend you can’t see it. Even when they do focus on me, I’m able to heal through it quite easily. You’re either lying or intellectually dishonest on this point.

2- Since I feel fairly confident that no arrow cart is going to kill me. I am going to spend the day frapsing videos of me standing in massive arrow cart fire and living. I want to see how you’ll explain away 30 or 40 videos showing exactly the same thing; someone getting wailed on with arrow carts and not dying. Cliffside, Garrison, Hill, Bay, Sunny, 2 arrow carts, six arrow carts., eight arrow carts…..it won’t matter. I won’t die.

I look forward to seeing this.

Reslinal.2359:

I play on NA t1 and have been on both the side that tries to use AC in open field battle (with WM) and the side that tries to destroy opposing zerg (with KnT against TW) that uses AC in open field battle. While it adds some elements in open field battle, it is certainly not as game breaking as some people here tries to make it sound. We lost the field battle where we tried to use AC and won the field battle when the opposing side tried to use AC.

I remember when we tried to open-field balista after their buff (with LotD was probably the only successful heat of the moment use of it), but the fact that you can be completely zoned off of them by a Guardian’s Shelter, from range, made them a waste. They and their operator would be immediately murdered or just CCed to hell and back in open field combat.

To be honest, open field, I’d be more worried about flash shotgun balista than a flash arrow cart.

Tearofsoul.9843:

FractalChaos.6539:

Someone getting wailed on with arrow carts and not dying. Cliffside, Garrison, Hill, Bay, Sunny, 2 arrow carts, six arrow carts., eight arrow carts…..it won’t matter. I won’t die.

Are you sure you can even handle 4 ACs?

Already did.

DevonCarver.5370:

To be a little clearer. The fixes to arrow carts will be coming quickly. We are already putting those in and testing them. Those should bring them more in line with what we expect them to be.

But one of the biggest issues, in my eyes, is the fact that you can place AC’s in areas where there is NO way to counter them, because of camera issues, or other issues. For example, you can place an AC on the cliff past the south hills gate, which will do massive AoE on the gate. There is NO way to destroy that, besides maybe finding a few spots to put a treb. But, people shouldn’t have to place 1 treb to take out 1 Arrow cart, that’s just silly. Is ANET going to do anything about making it so that siege that is placed by defenders can be countered? Another example is placing an AC behind a gate (so it cant be reached!), and then using funky camera aspects (like dual screening, etc), to be able to hit people outside. When the AC’s weren’t buffed, it was a minor nuisanced, however, since you now basically have to deal with counter siege, there is more emphasis on putting the AC’s in areas where the enemy has no hope to counter it, besides move away. That is a huge issue.

I don’t see how an argument can be made that Arrowcarts aren’t a bit over-balanced. Regular ones pulse for 1k-2k per tick, while superiors hit for 3k-4k. If you build enough of them, it’s essentially impossible to take a tower/keep with anything but a catapult or trebuchet. Even so, with range being increased to 3500 (that’s 100 less range than a catapult at full power), there are exceptionally few places to hide where an arrowcart cannot hit you. Combine this with people abusing LoS hacks to increase their range (they do exist; I know several people who have tested them out in WvW to try and figure out how the enemy zergs were hitting us with the more… creative AC placements) and you’ve got a serious problem.

I do think that ACs needed to be buffed. Previously, you could stand in 3+ ACs and not feel a thing. However, I don’t think that giving ACs a minimum of an 8% damage boost, and then introducing a trait line that further boosts its damage, was the right course of action.

Case-in-point: KN golem rushed Mag BL’s garrison last night. Inner watergate was at 50% with either 2 or 3 golems on it, we flashbuilt a few ACs, and the KN zerg was dead by the time the gate finally broke.

Aneu.1748:

WvW is meant to be about players fighting players

That is opinion, not fact.

WvW is also not even sides, and the siege weapons could help to resolve that problem. I think Arenanet should try to address the zergy problem first and this arrow cart fix seems like the start of that, with zerglings whining in their thousands in this very thread. Lulz at them.

FractalChaos.6539:

Tearofsoul.9843:

FractalChaos.6539:

Someone getting wailed on with arrow carts and not dying. Cliffside, Garrison, Hill, Bay, Sunny, 2 arrow carts, six arrow carts., eight arrow carts…..it won’t matter. I won’t die.

Are you sure you can even handle 4 ACs?

Already did.

I look forward to seeing this as well, lol.

Svarty.8019:

Aneu.1748:

WvW is meant to be about players fighting players

That is opinion, not fact.

WvW is also not even sides, and the siege weapons could help to resolve that problem. I think Arenanet should try to address the zergy problem first and this arrow cart fix seems like the start of that, with zerglings whining in their thousands in this very thread. Lulz at them.

If you think wvw isn’t about player versus player…. I dont even know how to begin to understand what you think it is about. My head aches just thinking about how someone could even think something like that….

FractalChaos.6539:

Niim.9260:

DeWolfe.2174:

Devon, please do not destroy WvW by listening to the very vocal minority. WvW is the only place siege exist. I love using siege and it’s THE ONLY place we can. WvW is NOT the place for small GvG fighting. That is the main problem here. Specific guilds trying to change every aspect of the game to suit themselves. And, these individuals that believe they have skill because they press a number for a skill.

Make the population on sPvP maps larger to suit them. This way they can do their thing without spoiling WvW, please??

I really wish we could stomp this stupid suggestion once and for all. Every discussion about GvG always ends in someone telling folks to take it to sPvP environment. If you spent any time at all in sPvP or farther then 10 feet from a zerg you would know that the two are not the same and sPvP is not conducive to what people are looking for.

WvW is about being inclusive of all play styles, be it solo, small group, 20 man squad, giant 70+ zerg. There is a role for each of those play styles within WvW. If WvW is only about siege and objectives, then why not just make DAoC style battlegrounds with one keep in the middle and we just all fight over it? Why have space to roam? Supply camps to defend? Sentries and dolyaks for solo’s to kill? Why make scouting important? WvW would be greatly diminished without all of these things, yet you want all of WvW to be ONLY focused on sieging an objective? Seems extremely short sighted to me.

If adding a legitimate, polished (read: stable, Arenanet!), playable Guild vs Guild option will redirect all the people who want to WvW without those bothersome siege weapons or buildings to capture…I’m all for it!

Stop trolling have you seen GvG? They are no where near towers or keep so your argument against because of GvG these guilds want the change is invalid. This issue has nothing to do with GvG. It is about overall experience in WvW.

Svarty.8019:

Aneu.1748:

WvW is meant to be about players fighting players

That is opinion, not fact.

I agree!

Bring in the siege controlled by AI, people are rubbish anyways.

Arkard.3970:

VOLKON.1290:

Hickeroar.9734:

VOLKON.1290:

Hickeroar.9734:

Arkard.3970:

Reverse the changes. Don’t try to band-aid some fix, the fact that this change was made in the first place pretty much gives us zero confidence in any type of attempted fix to be remotely successful.

Reverse the changes ASAP. It does not sit well when something as ridiculous as spectator mode bug fixes gets priority over something as game changing as this. It’s only been 2 and 1/2 days and entire guilds have already quit over this.

The annoying thing is that this stuff was balanced. Really well balanced actually… Why mess with an excellent balance like that?

I would give a lot to find out what decision making process was followed when doing this, because it, frankly, doesn’t many any sense.

ACs were too weak, they really were. Rain hurt more than one of them. They should keep the anti-personnel aspects of them intact. Damage reduction against siege, I can see that.

Now… a trainable “Flaming Arrows” that does full damage against siege (and burns people)… this makes me tingly inside.

And you’re OK with the entire idea of open-field combat being destroyed by this single, idiotic change?

When I see people post stuff like this, I wonder how much WvW they actually play. It can’t be much…

Haven’t seen open field combat destroyed to be honest. I’ve seen tower defenses splatter invaders, but not open field stuff. Now, if someone dropping an AC in the open field is indeed “breaking” open field combat then all I can offer to do is slowly shake my head at the dead people that failed to realize there’s a minimum distance for ACs as well.

That assumes one ac…. if you flash build multiple ones with a zerg, they can cover each other easily….

I’ve done it; there were only 8 of us and (I think; pets, clones and kittene make it hard to take a rapid, accurate count) 12ish of them, with 3 ACs. I think 2 of them may have been upleveled, that certainly did not help them. When we killed off one AC operator and destroyed 2 of the 3 ACs, they ran. None of us died, only 1 of them did; AC operator. =P

Yep, multiple ACs can cover each other if they are built far enough apart. If a zerg doesn’t drop them far enough apart, you’ve got multiple tightly packed AC operators being killed by the mother of all AoE storms.

This is so easy to fix; make arrow carts effective only against players. Make them useless against rams, ballistas, catas, trebs, and other ACs. Increase the cooldown on the firing rate for all AC skills (it’s an arrow cart; don’t I have to reload???). Hell reduce the damage buff to 50% instead of 80% so that servers in lower tiers with skewed population balances aren’t hit quite as hard, as was suggested by…I think, Ruprecht, in this very thread.

But to cross your arms like children and go “NO!! Make go away, me not WANT to twy, me not happy!” is just…embarrassing.

LoL at those jumping in saying that is gonna quit if doesn’t fix it, that’s hilarious!

First, if you and your friends and the entire guild leaves the game they won’t even notice you, it would actually help others, less bad players and shorter queues.

Second, good luck finding a game better then this. Or even close to it.

thiagoperne.7340:

LoL at those jumping in saying that is gonna quit if doesn’t fix it, that’s hilarious!

First, if you and your friends and the entire guild leaves the game they won’t even notice you, it would actually help others, less bad players and shorter queues.

Second, good luck finding a game better then this. Or even close to it.

I haven’t seen a fanboy for a long long time

Tearofsoul.9843:

thiagoperne.7340:

LoL at those jumping in saying that is gonna quit if doesn’t fix it, that’s hilarious!

First, if you and your friends and the entire guild leaves the game they won’t even notice you, it would actually help others, less bad players and shorter queues.

Second, good luck finding a game better then this. Or even close to it.

I haven’t seen a fanboy for a long long time

What?! I’m still here!

Aneu.1748:

WvW is meant to be about players fighting players

And who the kitten are you to tell me what WvW is? For me it is about running dollies and making bunkers or ninja flipping camps. If you want pure GvG wait for ANet to add it or change game, instead of trying to change WvW into something you think it should be.

Tie the AC buff to the out manned buff imo ….

VOLKON.1290:

Moderator.1462:

Hi everyone,

This thread has been forwarded to Anet so that they are aware of what does the community think about the Arrow Carts changes.

Thanks for your feedback.

Wait… there were arrow cart changes?

I kid. Personally I’m not too put off with the changes. People shouldn’t be able to stand in an AC AoE field and shrug it off like it’s a warm drizzle. Ask me about the 30 second warning or the 30 minute despawn and I’ll be less kind, but the arrow carts I think reflect more resistance to a change in how we siege than anything else. We need to clear siege now rather than ignore it. Supply is more valuable. It’s a shock to the system.

Thank you for your opinion sir; logical and objective reasoning is always welcomed.

FractalChaos.6539:

Terkov.4138:

I really hope all the ppl saying they will quit GW2, will really quit

One can only hope…

Couldn’t agree more.

I have lost some respect for some guilds and individuals through this “discussion”. Its really the nasty nature of some of them too.

I mean, Devon responds, and they still reply with rude or nasty comments.

brandon.6735:

And here is why we need a public test server to test stuff out with the community. You guys always seem to put stuff out that is very weird and questionable in every patch and most of the time revert it back.

One billion times yes on the public test server option. I wonder if ArenaNet chose to ignore this possibility because they don’t want people leaking info about their Living World updates, keep the storyline safe, that sorta thing…

Could we not get a test server in which only the WvW maps were active? Please?

Devon, what are the chances of getting the AC changes rolled back before the reset and coming weekend? Or should we just go ahead and make other plans?

Aneu.1748:

Please note that until you stop the passive aggressive posts and return off cloud 9 and seem to be making an effort to understand the problem (because there obviously is one) then I will not be replying to you – hopefully your response to this is a welcome one.

I agree there’s a problem; 3 or 4 times already in this thread I’ve stated that my vote goes to making siege weapons invulnerable to AC fire (no more killing rams, catas, or even Golems with ACs) and rolling back the damage from its current 80% to 50%.

Arrow carts were useless before. Arrow carts seem overpowered now (because it’s a new change). The truth, as in all things, probably lies in the middle of those two statements. My problem is with the “NO!! Change everything back NOW and LEAVE it that way!!” crowd. If that isn’t your point of view, then kudos to you.

Svarty.8019:

Aneu.1748:

WvW is meant to be about players fighting players

That is opinion, not fact.

Actually it is fact, not opinion.

A-net definition of WvW : World vs. World (WvW) is PvP combat that involves hundred of players.

Tearofsoul.9843:

The funny thing is NO ONE was complaining about AC pre-patch, I mean NO ONE.
So please, if it is working, DON’T try to “fix” it

No one was complaining about arrow carts specifically, very true. A metric crapload of people were complaining about how badly disadvantaged defenders were in a siege, however. So while no one may have asked for a specific buff to ACs, a lot of people sure wanted keep and tower defense to be about more than who fielded more people.

Silver.9084:

Svarty.8019:

Aneu.1748:

WvW is meant to be about players fighting players

That is opinion, not fact.

Actually it is fact, not opinion.

A-net definition of WvW : World vs. World (WvW) is PvP combat that involves hundred of players.

Doing what? Wait… I’ll help.

World vs. World (WvW) is PvP combat that involves hundred of players. Three huge teams —each representing a server, or world— battle for control over objectives on four massive maps in week-long matches.

Each map – one for each server and a huge “neutral” center map – is loaded with objectives that are worth points for the team that claims them. Players can band together to lay siege to castles, raid enemy supply caravans, clash with other players in truly massive battles, wreak havoc behind enemy lines, or build mighty weapons of war like trebuchets and siege golems.
…
World vs. World—it’s PvP combat on an epic scale!

FractalChaos.6539:

brandon.6735:

And here is why we need a public test server to test stuff out with the community. You guys always seem to put stuff out that is very weird and questionable in every patch and most of the time revert it back.

One billion times yes on the public test server option. I wonder if ArenaNet chose to ignore this possibility because they don’t want people leaking info about their Living World updates, keep the storyline safe, that sorta thing…

Could we not get a test server in which only the WvW maps were active? Please?

I think it would be best to just keep it where they put new content out then they see how we as a community react to it then adjust accordingly. There no need to a test server because every server that is out IS a test server. It keeps communication open between the ppl playing the game and the makers of the game vs having an elite group of ppl deciding what good and what bad.

I am glade Anet had a response for this and are willing to changes things according to the community mind you these forums are still a very small part of that over all community. I just hope its not an overreaction its what killing ppl there own overreaction of something that makes for more overreaction.

FractalChaos.6539:

I’m actually trying to help you.

I oppose anyone whose position is based on hearsay and lack of evidence. I don’t care if I’m personally right or wrong. Really. If tomorrow Anet comes out and says “Arrow Carts are accounting for far too many victories in WvW; our recent change to arrow carts will be rolled back pending more data”, I’m not going to hide. I’ll be here, and my response will be “Hmm. Really? Oh well.”

Please see:

DevonCarver.5370:

I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it.

Firstly, when siege weapons were originally created, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

So in response to:

FractalChaos.6539:

If you think I’m wrong, if you think arrow carts are overpowered and ruining WvW, if you think ArenaNet has to roll back this change, if you’re really serious about that; prove it.

No need to prove it to you, apparently ANet already agrees with us.
Now would be an appropriate time for you to admit that our complaints were completely justified, and move along.

FractalChaos.6539:

Tearofsoul.9843:

The funny thing is NO ONE was complaining about AC pre-patch, I mean NO ONE.
So please, if it is working, DON’T try to “fix” it

No one was complaining about arrow carts specifically, very true. A metric crapload of people were complaining about how badly disadvantaged defenders were in a siege, however. So while no one may have asked for a specific buff to ACs, a lot of people sure wanted keep and tower defense to be about more than who fielded more people.

There may not have been a seperate thread but there were many posts about how weak arrow carts were and increasing their damage.

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

I’m actually trying to help you.

I oppose anyone whose position is based on hearsay and lack of evidence. I don’t care if I’m personally right or wrong. Really. If tomorrow Anet comes out and says “Arrow Carts are accounting for far too many victories in WvW; our recent change to arrow carts will be rolled back pending more data”, I’m not going to hide. I’ll be here, and my response will be “Hmm. Really? Oh well.”

See:

DevonCarver.5370
I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it.

Firstly, when siege weapons were originally created, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

So in response to:

If you think I’m wrong, if you think arrow carts are overpowered and ruining WvW, if you think ArenaNet has to roll back this change, if you’re really serious about that; prove it.

No need to prove it to you, apparently ANet already agrees with us.

Are you completely sure about that?

The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die.