Guild Wars 2

Burnfall.9573:

Kaleygh.1524:

Burnfall.9573:

you GvG’s Fail to Demonstrate your Desire to be Recognized?

You`re either a troll then or you have no idea what the gvg scene tried to do in the past and how we got treated.
I understand that maybe you`re a anet fanboy, but dont talk about things you have no idea of.

-I have done GvG before with vast guilds and i choose to not continue-.

“Arena.net fanboy”, take a look at my post history and see for yourself.

I don’t Hate GvG but after that harsh Hateful treatment to an outsider who was trolling, make me ask myself, do GvG use Hate to defend its Purpose?

Do GvG use Hate to stand its ground?

Do GvG use Hate to be Recognized and Respected by Arena.net and non-GvG players?

Do they??

WtF iS wrOng WitH yOur ShiFt keY?

mrstealth.6701:

Who are you to assume how I play in wvw?

I don’t do wvw to zerg undefended keeps. My favorite things are taking well defended keeps and defending keeps from capable enemy force. This can involve single large forces, or multiple smaller forces spread around the map focused on different objectives. My preference is generally the latter.

Thank you, I agree. GvG poeple like to fight open field with fair numbers sometimes. So they go to the back to fight.

Why are you trying to control the way they play WvW ? They are still fighting the other world, just a little differently.

These anti-GvG people are baffling to me. I love WvW, or at least the idea of WvW, but in practice it is just not working. Because in my experience, all that happens in your standard WvW session is one zerg enters a borderlands, caps undefended objectives, and either wipes once and leaves or gets bored and leaves. After that, the home server retakes everything they lost, which is again undefended. The only time its really any different is on reset night. The PPT game is boring; you know it and I know it so there is no point in denying it.

I’m disappointed to see how vicious some people are being.

For starters, having watched all of the video, I feel it’s clear that when he arrived, it could have looked like there was kill swapping going on. Even the people who were there have stated that at times it was very one sided fighting.

As an ArenaNet employee, it’s really his obligation to investigate this. Did he perhaps make the wrong assumption about what was happening? Maybe. But you know what, he’s human, just like the rest of us. And human beings make mistakes.

Many people have said that they think it’s impossible he didn’t know what people were doing there and so obviously came to troll them. This is a very self-centered point of view. Not everyone WvW’s on a regular basis. Even among those that do, not everyone uses the WvW maps to GvG. Regardless, even if that IS the area that GvG goes on at, if there is something going on there that breaks the TOS, then ANet will check it out.

The barrage of foulmouthed vitriol that got unleashed on him was undeserved no matter what someone does. What is wrong with people that they think it’s acceptable to talk to anyone that way? I’ve seen it time and time again in Queensdale when people who are farming champions absolutely lose their minds that someone has DARED to kill a champion when NOT on the train. Do they consider that not everyone wants to play that way? That some people enjoy a challenge, or even – and be sitting down for this one – might just be new to the game and are just doing events as they come across them? Sadly, all to often the answer is no. Because far too often, people never consider other points of view than their own.

The next assumption made by many is that he turned on his tag to show off or intimidate. He didn’t do this until people started swearing at him (an action completely against the TOS). Had anyone been getting that kind of verbal abuse, I would expect an ANet staffer in the area to step in to try to defuse the situation and calm things down. Something, I might add, that I have personally witnessed this ANet staffer do on multiple occasions. Even his comment about why he was there has been twisted to mean that he was implying ANet doesn’t support GvG. Yes, he referred to it as “my game”. That’s because like most of the ANet staff I know, he’s very committed to it and passionate about it. I work for an airline, and I talk about “my planes” all the time. It’s just a phrase. Unfortunately in this case, all of his actions were interpreted by a group that seems very hostile to ANet, and represented in the worst possible light in this thread.

The whole thing I think has been blown ridiculously out of proportion. It’s pretty obvious that the topic of GvGing on the WvW maps is a hot topic for many, with people passionate about the issue on both sides. It’s pretty clear to me that he became a target for a lot of people’s frustrations about the issue.

He made a mistake in thinking that what was happening was breaking the TOS. He used a phrase that people took wrong. And people assumed he used his tag to dominate them when he was just trying to stop people from being jerks.

I know he is upset about how people are interpreting his actions because they are SO WRONG about his motives. He loves the game. He loves WvW. He loves his home server. He hates to see it getting abused. He hates to see people’s fun being ruined by other people’s bad behaviour. But he is one of the most kind hearted, open minded individuals it has EVER been my privilege to get to know. So to have people see him in that light is, I’m sure, very upsetting to him. To have the situation become so negative would be equally very upsetting to him.

I would ask that everyone who knows him (and many of us on the server do and play regularly with him) to be just as vocal in your support of him as the people who seem to be screaming for his head are.

No one is perfect. He certainly doesn’t claim to be perfect. But he has worked very hard to make the game what it is today, and has always been a fantastic representative for ANet.

For those who have made judgements on his actions, please consider, even if for just a few moments, the different view point I have made above. And in the end, please remember that to err is human, and to forgive is divine.

(Edit – I want to make it clear, I’m not speaking FOR him. I have barely talked to him since this happened, and all my comments are based on my observations of him over the time I’ve known him.)

I thought there was a custom arena created for the purpose of “GVG”? So what’s wrong with custom arenas? Why can’t “GVG” take place in these privately structured format?

SleepingDragon.1596:

I thought there was a custom arena created for the purpose of “GVG”? So what’s wrong with custom arenas? Why can’t “GVG” take place in these privately structured format?

Because it is fair
GvGers seems to want unfair fights for some reason.

SleepingDragon.1596:

I thought there was a custom arena created for the purpose of “GVG”? So what’s wrong with custom arenas? Why can’t “GVG” take place in these privately structured format?

Because at most the custom arenas can host 10v10. Alot of GvG fights are 15v15 and 20v20. plus there is not as much statistical diversity in spvp as there is in wvw because of the way the gear is set up.

Preacher.9018:

Buzzcrave.6197:

Chopps.5047:

Go tell that to NA t1. Pretty sure PPT is important to them.

Remove all the reward in WvW, and you won’t see them playing for PPT at all. Just saying.

WvW? Reward? Since begining WvW was huge gold sink and time waster, one had to PvE to gain money to WvW, pay guild taxes, spend hours in queues just to get in and then sit in tower clicking weapons so they dont despawn, carry supplies while getting nothing, spend hours fighting knowing if you log off, some important segment will likely be lost and you will not be replaced, wake up early to recapture points, always be on null since you spend all your money on upgrades and weapons etc.

Wxp, PvP gear, rewards, higher xp and loot all came much later

Once again proves what kind of scrubs are “GvG” players are. Hundreds and Thousands invested a lot of our time and soil in WvW and its insulting seeing people like you call yourself “WvW” ers now.

I think it’s insulting for me as someone playing on SFR from day 1 to read something so asinine from someone that apparently has a relevant role with our community site. But this should probably be kept out of this thread.

@courin.2314
Kill trading, that is the best thing I’ve ever heared. Are you believing what you write?
A leading dev who doesn’t know what happens near the windmill in “his game”? If anything, does he have to observe from the middle of the area? He can’t read enemy /say chat anyways to be in proximity to both sides. So why he has to be in the middle?
It’s obvious that he was just there to troll, harass and relief his frustration, which is 100% against the ToS and CoC. Bannable behaviour and therefore should be strictly punished, just like ANet does punish their players. Or are we players, 2nd or 3rd class?

On top, not the first time a person with ANet tag interfered with a gvg. Happened not too long ago on the EU servers as well, but that ANet guy was clever enough to port right away before it escalated and take the train he brought with him away from the spot. Why wasn’t it the case this time? Intentional harrassment.

courin.2314:

For starters, having watched all of the video, I feel it’s clear that when he arrived, it could have looked like there was kill swapping going on.

Defending the fellow is misplaced while its always good to give people the benefit of the doubt that does not fit in this case. The chance of him not knowing what was going on is zero.

The Dev knew full well what GvGs are, and where they are done before hand, he decided to act like a confused new WvW player for a little while baiting a reaction from the players then popping his Anet tag.

His comments showed a opinion formed before he came to troll about ‘his game mode’ it was the lowest of the low. Trolling of players and pretending ignorance…. saying they should not be having even numbers fights vs other guilds is not a solution.

The level of unprofessional behavior is unreal, its a clear indication of the devs opinion of players that reject only doing PPT and just want to GvG once and a great while.

I honestly never seen a MMO start so strong and quickly make so many bad choices, all avoidable with just a little respect for players input.

@empire.2531

I stand behind every word I said.

The entire point of my post is that what is obvious to one person is not obvious to everyone, and that different people have different perspectives. I don’t expect you to see things from my way, and you are entitled to your opinion, just as I am. I have as much right to express my opinion on this forum as anyone else does. I know him, and I know that he is NOT a troll. He doesn’t harass people. And I wanted to let other people know that as well.

The amount of indignation on display here is very amusing. It seems that a lot of people are overlooking that a player tossed out insults and another asks for someone on an opposing world to kill a character on his world. Could the a-net employee handled that better? I don’t doubt it. However, the over the top, panties-in-a-bunch reaction by some is just to much.

@courin

There is no possible way he did not know what GvGs are and that they are done at the windmill. To insult the most dedicated WvWers in GW2 by saying they are kill trading lol.

Of course he did not feel he was trolling he felt 100% justified because its his game mode.

One can not build anything good with a foundation of bullkitten. Anet has some rebuilding to do…. or just be done with it and ban all GvGers trolling them telling them how to play when these same GvGers are avid WvWers will result in massive blowback.

@Magee yes trolls do get players worked up that is their whole goal…. all this dancing around the truth. The Dev felt like trolling some GvGers and all the people watching.

Heartless and Hate remains, to the Bitter end.

so sad…

Tellerion.8102:

[…]
Do you even see what your writing? It sounds very much like you want to dictate what other’s should be able to do and not. As long as it doesn’t suit you it obviously has to be forbidden and wrong. The fact that you justify doing exploration, jumping puzzles etc. just clarifies my point.

So this is very much like elitism, since your trying to force people out of WvW, and saying that their not wanted because they don’t cater to your vision of how WvW should be like.

Disgraceful.

No.

The rules are rules are must be followed. The game’s rules are the ones dictating what can’t be done, not me.

Ethics and personal moral should be the ones telling you not to do things that affect negatively others. Not me, either.

My vision of how WvW should be, if you googled these forums includes something like GvG or HA with small instanced maps that let guilds and PvP teams give advantages with their skill, and a reason to stick to a tower and defend it instead roaming around, as the tower becomes their access to these matches, by having some portal in there usable by the members of their guild.

It does not involve a bunch of guys using up slots other players could use.

I would even prefer if people didn’t even have to get points for a full map. But they have to, and that’s part of the official rulesets, so you have to let them do that, even if you don’t like it.

What you don’t have to let them is anything that affects negatively others and isn’t part of the official rulesets.

For example, if they did they “GvGs” (which aren’t anything like GW1’s GvG, by the way) on ‘downtimes’ when there’s less people.

But most I’ve seen happen on high concurrency times. When lots of people is trying to join and get to TS and get some WvW going. That’s the only real thing they do wrong, and the reason why they should stop.

The lack of GvG isn’t a reason to bother other players. It’s a reason for Anet to ADD GvG.

Tricare.2946:

Why are you trying to control the way they play WvW ? They are still fighting the other world, just a little differently.

This is really where my issue with gvg is. I don’t consider gvg as playing wvw, but rather as intentionally avoiding it. It’s true that you are fighting a guild from another world, but that fight doesn’t have any real relation to wvw, aside from happening on a wvw map.

The self-balancing factor of occupying an equal sized enemy force is negated by the existence of the third server in wvw. That’s the issue that I ran into with gvg and queues. Server A and server B are having a gvg, while wvw’ers from server A are trying to take a keep held by server C. Server A was outnumbered by Server C because our players couldn’t enter the map.

courin.2314:

I’m disappointed … was very one sided fighting.

He knew very well that a gvg was on, stop making him look innocent. He went there to troll, didnt even moved after being asked NICELY to do so.
You cannot really be that naive to think that those people were “kill swapping”. Do you have any idea how many pugs a organzied guild can wipe in the time it takes to set up and finish one gvg ? Rest assured that none of the people doing gvg`s are there for the kill count.

courin.2314:

As an ArenaNet employee, …. And human beings make mistakes.

Human beings also get fired for making mistakes

courin.2314:

Many people have said that they think it’s impossible he didn’t know what people were … then ANet will check it out.

It`s player generated content. People got bored of the stale wvw ppt crap mode that anet is offering us so they`re coming up with their own contests. That means that instead of getting bored and leaving the game, they still play because there is something they find fun/interesting. The reintroduction of the orb mechanic was a clear slap in the face to those players.

courin.2314:

The barrage of foulmouthed vitriol … people never consider other points of view than their own.

He was asked in a normal manner to move away from where he was standing. He clearly knew what was going on, and he just replied with “keep my chat clean” (obviously he thinks he has the right to shut everyone up). When people started to get irritated he showed his anet tag. (probably thinking this will impress the feeble minded peasants that like gvg`s and make them shut up)

courin.2314:

The next assumption … and represented in the worst possible light in this thread.

If someone swears at you just report him. If you`d work as a cop and someone is impolite, do you pull your gun out ? What world do you live in ?
He kept talking as things belong to him – “MY chat”, “MY game” even the whispers he sent were rude and were showing that he clearly has a attitude problem.

courin.2314:

The whole thing I think has been blown ridiculously out of proportion… I’ve known him.)

I understand that maybe he is your friend, and i appreciate that you`re willing to step up and try to patch things up but you have to understand how a part of the wvw community feels about anet. The way we got completely ignored and getting to the point where new mechanics were introduced (that NOBODY asked for) jsut to screw the whole gvg concept, made a lot of people just sick and tired of anet. The current wvw dev team did nothing but mistakes in handling the community.
Threads keep being deleted, forum posts infracted.
How many posts were there before the update asking for the orb mechanic and how many were there asking for gvgs?
Instead they MOCKED us by moving the gvg thread to the events category. What treatment do you expect if you put a anet tag up while disturbing a gvg ?
He clearly knew what was going on, he just went there to mock us and to provoke a reaction. I dont care if he worked on the game before and after release. I had plenty of jobs and i learned that nobody is irreplaceable. If he cannot handle his emotions and cannot focus on fixing the imbalance and the bugs in the game instead of disturbing the players, then he deserves to be fired.

Tbh the only people that i consider close to irreplaceable in Anet would be Kekai Kotaki and Daniel Dociu because of their amazing talent.

PS – sorry for editing the quotes, had to cut the text length because it was too large

Disclaimer: Courin is a guildie and I like to consider her my friend. Hope she does too.

I’m 100% in agreement with what you said – I actually posted repeatedly here about the same thing. I never talked directly to Khelden but I watched him play and in mapchat in WvW – all around nice guy. If you get to talk to him please let him know that most of the people I’ve talked about on SBI are sincerely sorry about this mess.

You stated your point – there is no sense in answering all the attacks. Some people here have a different agenda – they smell blood and got into a frenzy. They will not stop until the thread is closed – then they’ll open another one.

If you can contact him – offer him to join us one night in WvW. That’s what the game is about not forum wars.

mrstealth.6701:

The last time I ran into queue issues caused by a gvg match, we were trying to take a well defended Bay keep. A significant portion of our players were locked out of the map, and the defenders were able to easily outnumber what should have a been a full map queue.

I know we weren’t queued against you when you were crying about the horrible mag zerg in August – how long ago was that incident?

As a fan of GvG I have to disagree with people stating it is the ultimate or most dedicated form of WvW. It’s not, you are warping the way WvW is meant to play and ultimately carving out a piece of it for your own ends. You are not playing WvW when you are GvGing. You are intruding on the WvW game mode, thus disrupting it, though I highly doubt any of the lower tier servers would be affected by pop cap, but the fact remains.

As for others saying the dev could have not known what was going on, that goes past ignorange right into stupidity. I believe he was within his bounds being there, it’s an “open world” envirorment and he has the same right as anyone to be there, you could’ve easily tell the other team to kill him real quick. Some would say demanding a person to leave an area for open play is harassment.

Warthog.6870:

mrstealth.6701:

The last time I ran into queue issues caused by a gvg match, we were trying to take a well defended Bay keep. A significant portion of our players were locked out of the map, and the defenders were able to easily outnumber what should have a been a full map queue.

I know we weren’t queued against you when you were crying about the horrible mag zerg in August – how long ago was that incident?

I have no idea what you’re referring to, but I don’t think it’s related. This did happen in the last month or two, I’m thinking it was maybe Dragonbrand. I’m not really sure which server it was, though.

We had a large force, full queue or very near it. When we moved to a different map, quite a few were unable to follow because of a queue. I don’t know if the defenders had a full queue or not, but we were hitting the player limit despite clearly having fewer players with us. They definitely had more than we did, despite the game telling us we were at the limit, with no other apparent forces on the map. It was right afterwards that we found out about the gvg that was happening on that map.

There was a bit of confusion when people started reporting the queue, because we knew the number we had with us wasn’t enough to cause it.

MithranArkanere.8957:

The rules are rules are must be followed. The game’s rules are the ones dictating what can’t be done, not me.

Now, how about you actually back up your claims and provide the rest of us with a valid source that specifically states that doing these type of events in WvW is forbidden, and something that’s against the rules.

Would Chris Whiteside(dev) be making an apology on behalf of his co-worker if these players were doing something forbidden? If these players were actually violating the rules you claimed to be there, they would be banned on the spot, not because of the verbal abuse that they rightfully should have been punished for, but for their actually actions, which they weren’t.

mrstealth.6701:

Warthog.6870:

mrstealth.6701:

The last time I ran into queue issues caused by a gvg match, we were trying to take a well defended Bay keep. A significant portion of our players were locked out of the map, and the defenders were able to easily outnumber what should have a been a full map queue.

I know we weren’t queued against you when you were crying about the horrible mag zerg in August – how long ago was that incident?

I have no idea what you’re referring to, but I don’t think it’s related. This did happen in the last month or two, I’m thinking it was maybe Dragonbrand. I’m not really sure which server it was, though.

We had a large force, full queue or very near it. When we moved to a different map, quite a few were unable to follow because of a queue. I don’t know if the defenders had a full queue or not, but we were hitting the player limit despite clearly having fewer players with us. They definitely had more than we did, despite the game telling us we were at the limit, with no other apparent forces on the map. It was right afterwards that we found out about the gvg that was happening on that map.

There was a bit of confusion when people started reporting the queue, because we knew the number we had with us wasn’t enough to cause it.

I’m sorry, but out of the 168 hours of match time, that ~1/2 – 1 hour the GvG may have lasted was a decisive turning point? Not to mention the 2 other borderlands + EB that must have had objectives to take.

And I know you’re saying “Well, the queue was keeping out the people who wanted to play WvW the way its meant to be played,” but that argument doesn’t hold either. Unless Anet officially condemns GvG, there is nothing wrong with two organized groups fighting in open field. I don’t understand why people are getting so upset because guilds found a way to break the monotony of the PPT grind.

As a heavy WvW player, I don’t get upset if I try to enter at any BL and its full because of GvG’s. First of all I don’t blame them, totally the oposite, if ANet can’t provide us with some good PVP experience its their merit that they found this to do.

I’d rather have a GvG mode instead this actual sPvP, if some ANet dev comes to me asking “we’re going to cut this sPvP off the game and put a beta GvG totally unfinish that we don’t know when we’re going to finish instead” I would answer him “how much do you want? take my money”

@topic

Day by day I kinda lost the respect from anet as a company, so many bad decisions along this first year of the game that I feel sad, just sad :/ When I say bad decisions is about PVP exclusively (WvW and sPvP).

After they said that WvW ranks wont be account bound I can expect anything from them now, after one year of gw2 I know that no matter how “good/makes sense” the feedback is they will do whatever they want, the only chance of them doing what we want is when the request of the players match with what they already had planned. And then people will praise ANet saying they listen costumers …

Its something like: OK, you guys are requesting this, hmm let me check, yeah we kinda had planned something similar We listen you and we decided that we’re going to do it.

I don’t blame them, they are a company and work for money, everyone does that right. I have 28 years and I know how things work these days, but there is a gamer inside me that wants cool stuff

In the end I’ll stop care, like they already do, and will play the game they want me to play.

Asquared.4091:

I’m sorry, but out of the 168 hours of match time, that ~1/2 – 1 hour the GvG may have lasted was a decisive turning point? Not to mention the 2 other borderlands + EB that must have had objectives to take.

Had we known beforehand that there was a gvg happening on the map, we would likely have moved elsewhere. I’m fairly certain it wasn’t on our own borderland, so there was possbibly somewhere else we could have gone. But by the time we were aware of the queue issue, we had already taken the supply camp and were setting up siege.

It’s not so much a reason for gvg to not happen, but to have more communication as to what is going on. When a commander that commonly leads larger groups shows up on the map, it would be nice if they were informed of any possible issues. I know the gvg teams are likely occupied and unable to type a message in chat, but others that are not participating or just observing could do that.

As I’ve said before, with cooperation and communication, a lot of the issues that arise from gvg can be avoided or prevented. I know of instances where gvg matches have moved to avoid problems like this, but that does work both ways. A zerg can just as easily shift maps if there are objectives to be taken elsewhere.

The holier than thou – “your not playing the game the way its meant to be played” argument really needs to stop.

I am guild leader of a friendly bunch of boyos whom I lovingly call my misfits. I have made 1000% more friends on enemy servers than I have made enemies. To date I only consider 2 guilds cold/hostile towards us, and both those guilds are hostile too everyone. Even enemy server commanders have got in touch in the past and had lengthy discussions and even requested to join my guild.

We roam, we look for open field fights. We look to kill the enemy, is this not WvW?? Is my priority to siege something and take something coloured differently? No! I don’t play for siege wars, if the enemy servers guilds and pugs hide from us in their towers and keeps = a boring week. I will find fights, if none to be had (both servers hiding/lack of numbers) then and only then will I be forced into committing to siege wars for ze realm.

Only reason to take upgraded objectives is to “free up the map” making the enemy come and try to take something, bait the enemy into being aggressive = a fun action packed night of FIGHTS.

I have many many contacts across almost all the EU servers, people ask me which BL you at, for shock horror fights, the chance to roam on same BL against each other for entertainment.

Organised roaming on same BL, purely for fights, its the same principle as GvG just not even numbers ala accepted part of WvW, but knowing we are in the same BL ready for scraps.

Am I playing the game wrong??

Vote NOW to Playstyle A = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1nPnuO_VKw

Or Playstyle B = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNkC0TuSyXE

Note that’s me (an AG guild) saving a Gandara Keep – repeatedly from the horrible Jade Sea attackers on a reset night. For the fun, for the fights. Did Gandara thank us pfft!

Dare talk about contribution go on.

Think of it outside the box. Keeping that blob busy all night, wiping them repeatedly = they aren’t attacking something else, they aren’t map hopping to crush others.

Roaming, both solo, small group and large groups have their place. Don’t let ANET make video A become the norm. Let video B enlighten some of you that don’t run in guilds as to the fun one can have in this game.

mrstealth.6701:

The most important part is that it’s WvW, not GvG. WvW is in the intended and designed game format, so of course that takes priority. GvG is not “another aspect of this gametype”, it’s a separate player-generated gametype that happens on the same maps.

I disagree with this completely. In an MMO you should play how you would like to play as long as you are not going against the ToS. If I just wanted to chain jumping puzzles in WvW I should be able to do that. If I want chain duel other players in WvW I should be able to do that. If I want to just kill PvE mobs over and over again in WvW, I should be able to do that. The company shouldn’t be telling me “Hey you can’t just kill NPC mobs here you need to kill other players”. If it gets to that point, they failed in designing the game properly. And they need to take steps to fix it.

If the game is designed to level from 1-80 doing heart quests, but I like to grind on mobs over and over again to get to level 80, I should be able to do that. Even though it wasn’t designed for that type of game play.

This should be the case in all aspects of the game just not WvW and that is how it works in almost all MMOs. If anything Anet should realize that players like to GvG and do something to cater to them instead of bashing them and telling them to go away. To me that shows a lot about the character of a company, in a bad way. Chris Whiteside’s words are what ANet should ideally be.

Companies should never blame the players for playing the game. They should either blame the design of WvW or give the players a venue to do what they want to do. Games like DayZ and DotA were born out of gameplay that the company didn’t intend.

It just feels so wrong looking at that video. Players gathered and were doing something they like to do. And a dev tells them they shouldn’t be doing that in “his game”. That to me goes against everything an MMO should be.

And the worst thing about all of this? ANet caused a conflict between their own players, that is just unhealthy. Not only did they cause it, they are fueling the fires of it instead of putting it out. Don’t turn your own player base against each other. But that is all I have seen from ANet lately.

this thread was cool at first now it sux

I disagree, I think this thread is great fun and joy.

Xcom.1926:

In an MMO you should play how you would like to play as long as you are not going against the ToS. If I just wanted to chain jumping puzzles in WvW I should be able to do that. If I want chain duel other players I should be able to do that. If I want to just kill PvE mobs over and over again, I should be able to do that. The company shouldn’t be telling me “Hey you can’t just kill NPC mobs here you need to kill other players”. If it gets to that point, they failed in designing the game properly. And they need to take steps to fix it.

I do generally agree with that assessment, but there are more limits than just the ToS. Just because something isn’t explicitly forbidden by the ToS, does not mean it’s right or acceptable to do. This is especially true in situations where your actions can impact other players.

If you want to level by grinding mobs, you aren’t really effecting anyone else. If you decide to complete a dungeon using a certain tactic, you are only effecting your party, a group of people that have already chosen to play with you specifically.

There isn’t any part of the ToS that tells me I can’t go to Sparkfly Fen, take one of the turrets at the Tequatl fight, and use it to do nothing but kill the mobs that spawn around that area. However, I don’t think you’ll find anyone that could consider that right or ok to do. It’s not forbidden by the ToS, but it certainly has a considerable negative impact on everyone else there.

Sometimes you just have to play something as it was designed, or at least make some effort to avoid interfering with those that are.

mrstealth.6701:

Xcom.1926:

In an MMO you should play how you would like to play as long as you are not going against the ToS. If I just wanted to chain jumping puzzles in WvW I should be able to do that. If I want chain duel other players I should be able to do that. If I want to just kill PvE mobs over and over again, I should be able to do that. The company shouldn’t be telling me “Hey you can’t just kill NPC mobs here you need to kill other players”. If it gets to that point, they failed in designing the game properly. And they need to take steps to fix it.

I do generally agree with that assessment, but there are more limits than just the ToS. Just because something isn’t explicitly forbidden by the ToS, does not mean it’s right or acceptable to do. This is especially true in situations where your actions can impact other players.

If you want to level by grinding mobs, you aren’t really effecting anyone else. If you decide to complete a dungeon using a certain tactic, you are only effecting your party, a group of people that have already chosen to play with you specifically.

There isn’t any part of the ToS that tells me I can’t go to Sparkfly Fen, take one of the turrets at the Tequatl fight, and use it to do nothing but kill the mobs that spawn around that area. However, I don’t think you’ll find anyone that could consider that right or ok to do. It’s not forbidden by the ToS, but it certainly has a considerable negative impact on everyone else there.

Sometimes you just have to play something as it was designed, or at least make some effort to avoid interfering with those that are.

There are significantly bigger problems in WvW that effect other players experience, least of which are players dueling each other. The fact that each match-up is a blow out in all tiers except 1 (maybe 2) is probably the biggest issue. Having played on ET for almost a year I can tell you that from personal experience, it was so bad that I just stopped queuing for WvW.

Regardless, what you said is a game design issue not a player issue. Players should be able to do what they are doing. ANet should never tell players they shouldn’t be doing what they are doing as long as it is not against ToS. Because if they do, it puts them in a very sticky situation.

This thread is so long I could knit a sweater for a fat man. If only I knew how to knit.

MasterYoda.8563:

Zacchary.6183:

They probably have class bias too.

Yup they do it’s why the thiefs are still OP and rangers still suck

We are cornered into 2 builds. Are we still OP? Only 2 viable and strong builds and 75% of useless crap seems balanced to me.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that one of those 2 builds are going to get nerfed soon so maybe 1.5 viable builds.

courin.2314:

I’m disappointed … edit TL,DR

Make smaller posts.

What I gathered from scanning through this wall of text is that you think this Dev is completely oblivious to the existence of the gvg scene, and then decided that two equal forces of players standing across an open field – with an audience – looks like kill trading.

Hur Dur…

Xcom.1926:

There are significantly bigger problems in WvW that effect other players experience, least of which are players dueling each other. The fact that each match-up is a blow out in all tiers except 1 (maybe 2) is probably the biggest issue. Having played on ET for almost a year I can tell you that from personal experience, it was so bad that I just stopped queuing for WvW.

I have to agree that the current situation with wvw is not a good one, and you probably won’t find many that would consider it to be without major problems.

Regardless, what you said is a game design issue not a player issue. Players should be able to do what they are doing. ANet should never tell players they shouldn’t be doing what they are doing as long as it is not against ToS. Because if they do, it puts them in a very sticky situation.

It’s not viable to design a game where everything a player can do should be considered acceptable. Just look at the update history we’ve had so far. Nothing in the ToS forbids intentionally not completing or failing a dynamic/meta event, but Anet has made their stance on that rather clear. There have been several instances of events being farmed instead of completed that lead to those events being altered in way to make that impossible or deter it. The reasons for this being that the content was not being played as intended, and that these farmers were preventing others from finishing they event, or harassing them for doing so.

mrstealth.6701:

Xcom.1926:

There are significantly bigger problems in WvW that effect other players experience, least of which are players dueling each other. The fact that each match-up is a blow out in all tiers except 1 (maybe 2) is probably the biggest issue. Having played on ET for almost a year I can tell you that from personal experience, it was so bad that I just stopped queuing for WvW.

I have to agree that the current situation with wvw is not a good one, and you probably won’t find many that would consider it to be without major problems.

Regardless, what you said is a game design issue not a player issue. Players should be able to do what they are doing. ANet should never tell players they shouldn’t be doing what they are doing as long as it is not against ToS. Because if they do, it puts them in a very sticky situation.

It’s not viable to design a game where everything a player can do should be considered acceptable. Just look at the update history we’ve had so far. Nothing in the ToS forbids intentionally not completing or failing a dynamic/meta event, but Anet has made their stance on that rather clear. There have been several instances of events being farmed instead of completed that lead to those events being altered in way to make that impossible or deter it. The reasons for this being that the content was not being played as intended, and that these farmers were preventing others from finishing they event, or harassing them for doing so.

I play a lot of WvW, and as far as I know, I have never played outnumbered because of a GvG taking up queue space.

However, I frequently play outnumbered when my server is at the bottom of an uneven matchup, because the fairweather players who filled up queues on easy matchups are now nowhere to be found.

Now who is the greater detriment to a server’s WvW? Ultimately both are doing the same thing, focusing on their interest of fun, not necessarily having any malicious intent toward anyone else, but obviously ignoring the interests of everyone else.

Are GvG players the villains on the server simply because they thought outside the box a little, and found a way to have fun without ANet telling them they were allowed to have fun that way?

So let me get this straight…an Anet employee was playing the game and decided to be a troll, so naturally everyone’s response to this is that it’s a great tradgedy, and many people have apparently uninstalled the game because of this one employee’s trollish behavior? I can’t even begin to express to you people how sad it makes me that your all so petty, pathetic, and weak that you would react this way. Being kind to each other is one thing, but there comes a time when you gotta rub some dirt in it and stop being a….well, kitten.

Too many passed posts to respond to all of them. The Anet Dev was in the wrong, players were in the wrong for speaking to anyone that way.

“That is how gamers speak to each other” —No not all of them.

Players want GVG added (really deathmatch), this is not the way to get what you want. Players want a 15v15 or 20v20 deathmatch, can’t blame them sounds fun. I think I’d rather have 10v10 or maybe 15v15, any more than that and it seems bloated.

“and many people have apparently uninstalled the game because of this one employee’s trollish behavior? "

No they haven’t. Empty words. :P

I try to leave the gvg crowd be, but honestly many come off as elitist. Secondly, tonight there was a huge gvg event in tc bl, where we were fighting to save our keep. We could not get help in the bl, and when we asked for help to save our keep we were told to leave the bl. This is way too early in the match to be throwing the match.

Sanduskel.1850:

I try to leave the gvg crowd be, but honestly many come off as elitist. Secondly, tonight there was a huge gvg event in tc bl, where we were fighting to save our keep. We could not get help in the bl, and when we asked for help to save our keep we were told to leave the bl. This is way too early in the match to be throwing the match.

No it isn’t, ur matched to BG and SoR. The match was thrown when it was made, don’t lie to yourself. Your highest tick not including the first couple hours was what? a 240?

Parktou.4263:

So let me get this straight…an Anet employee was playing the game and decided to be a troll, so naturally everyone’s response to this is that it’s a great tradgedy, and many people have apparently uninstalled the game because of this one employee’s trollish behavior? I can’t even begin to express to you people how sad it makes me that your all so petty, pathetic, and weak that you would react this way. Being kind to each other is one thing, but there comes a time when you gotta rub some dirt in it and stop being a….well, kitten.

A year ago, people would probably have reacted with amusement and laughter at the idea that Anet even play the game (considering GMs are nowhere to be seen).

Today, many people are dissapointed, annoyed and sad over the neglected state of WvW and basic functionality thats never been fixed. So when something like this happen… The floodgates open and people vent their frustrations. Alot of frustrations.

So… Are we ever going to get a private Commander tickbox? No? Guess Anet is too busy trolling GvG matches instead of doing that.

^^ see how easy that was?

Sanduskel.1850:

I try to leave the gvg crowd be, but honestly many come off as elitist. Secondly, tonight there was a huge gvg event in tc bl, where we were fighting to save our keep. We could not get help in the bl, and when we asked for help to save our keep we were told to leave the bl. This is way too early in the match to be throwing the match.

1. You are facing 2 T1 servers…you aren’t winning this week.

2. TC BL will have SoR v BG GvGs not TC GvGs

As a former active GvG participant, I would go as far as to say that if there are guilds that are only GvGing, I wouldn’t personally support them and would be close to accepting non-GvG WvWers’ arguments regarding affect of taking WvW slots etc (though still it is up to them to play the game the way they want within ToC).

The world I’m living in though is the one where strongest GvG guilds are those who also are strongest and most “feared” force out there in WvW (apart from massive blobs and nightcappers ofc). You can’t really keep up as strong GvG opponent if you do not actively participate in WvW, and most guilds do. 1-2-3 GvGs a week and 7 normal daily WvW raids that can easily go over 4-6 hours of play. In my guild, people who were skipping a lot of WvW raids, simply wouldn’t be accepted into the GvG team. As an emergency substitute at best.

As long as Anet is not releasing any changes to the game that would resolve queue problem with GvGs on WvW, I think the problem should be really worked on internally to resolve it gracefully by servers’ WvW communities, as those who GvG are part of it. You don’t really have other options in sandbox since the confrontation and alienation route isn’t really leading anywhere other than destabilizing community.

On the unrelated note, someone was mentioning adrenaline rush GvG gives. This is true, and it plays into the way dev was treated in aforementioned incident. It’s like you are sitting in F1 bolid, lights are about to go off and suddenly you have some guy standing nearby trying to distract you with something related to how horrible are internal combustion cars for ecosystem. He may have best intentions, but… you’ve got the picture. I’m not advocating for the way dev was treated, just trying to give some perspective.

I think you mean SoR vs BG? JQ isn’t in the match this week.

PT. 1
I took some time out of my day to search the form posts dating several months back, and also some of the Dev. tracker posts. I did this to try to a feeling of what the community as a whole thinks about the GvG vs. WvW issue. Then I further searched the Official Rules of Conduct and Legal Information for more clarity this issue, and I will quote certain aspects of then which have the direct relevancy. Everyone of us had to agree to the conditions set forth by NCSOFT and Arenanet before you could log into the game.

“b. NCSOFT has no obligation under any circumstances to review any information, feedback or communication related to the Game. NCSOFT may, in its sole and absolute discretion, choose to review any information, feedback or communication related to the Game. NCSOFT may take any action, or no action whatsoever, based on any information, feedback or communication related to the Game, including but not limited to publicly commenting upon or publishing the foregoing. NCSOFT has no obligation to explain any decision to take any action, or no action whatsoever, based on any information, feedback or communication related to the Game”

*This is the answer to everyone complaining over why they don’t ‘have to’ respond to all the constant bantering, and that they ‘can’ respond in anyway they choose. This includes the whole GW2 community. It is also made quite clear in all of the RoC that THEY own the game, the copyrights, and the content, not THE PLAYERS. And also that THEY make the RULES……So stop with all of the hate toward them, about how they are ruining “your game” as it is clearly NOT your game.

“You acknowledge that NCSOFT may in its sole and absolute discretion provide subsequent versions, enhancements, modifications, upgrades or patches related to any part of the Service.”

*Again stating that since THEY own the game, THEY get to decide what content is added or not added. This includes Living Story, map changes, questlines, updates, PvE, Rankings, Rewards, WvW, Leagues, if/or GvG, Server Population, etc….THEY are the only ones who can dictate the overall content and how the game is played, not US.

PT. 2
*This next section will cover the incident that started this thread:

“i. Reported violations of Rules of Conduct that have merit — NCSOFT may take any action, or no action whatsoever, based on communications regarding violation of the Rules of Conduct related to any Account, including but not limited to termination of an Account under Section 3(b) or Section 3©. NCSOFT has no obligation to explain any decision to take any action, or no action whatsoever, based on communications regarding violation of the Rules of Conduct related to any Account.”

“ii. Reported violations of Rules of Conduct that lack merit — If NCSOFT, in its sole and absolute discretion, determines that You are associated with any communication regarding violations of the Rules of Conduct that lacks merit, NCSOFT may take any action it deems appropriate under the circumstances, including but not limited to termination of Your Account under Section 3(b) or Section 3©.”

“11.You will follow the instructions of authorized personnel while in Guild Wars 2 or on the official Guild Wars 2 website.”

“1.While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.”

“22.While participating in Plaver-vs-Player (PvP) gameplay, you will not participate in any form of match manipulation. Match manipulation is defined as any action taken to fix or manipulate the outcome of a match or alter or manipulate the rankings or ratings of the ladder. This also includes disrupting other people’s game experience by not actively participating in matches in good faith, a.k.a leeching.”

“The following will result in either a temporary account suspension or permanent account termination, depending upon the severity of the matter

•Inappropriate in-game behavior, such as obscene, offensive, or racist talk or behavior; abuse of another player; harassment; etc.

•Engaging in PvP match manipulation, disrupting a PvP match by not actively playing in good faith, or any other form of PvP griefing, exploitation, or abuse"

In summation:
They have no obligation to explain their action regarding the infraction on the OP, or how they handled the Dev. in question: they don’t have to explain themselves to players who ‘demand’ answers.

We the players are obligated to follow the instructions of company personnel: the DEV. had every right to tell them to stop.

We must be adults and respect other players in the game, and not use foul language, which is an infractable offence.

courin.2314:

I’m disappointed to see how vicious some people are being.

How in the world can you defend what this guy did. He was standing in the middle of the two opposing guilds. It has been clear that this is a GvG, no way to misinterpret the situation. He was asked to leave, he did not. One of the guilds chased him off a bit but even did not kill him, he returned and interfered again. After that the Raidlead started to call him Names and then the Dev started to show his Tag. But not to calm things down, he just wanted to show who has the bigger kitten and to troll people. To be honest i am surprised how nice the community was to this guy under the given circumstances, in europe when such things happen these motherkitteners will get killed over and over until they leave when they can not behave themselfes. Maybe this guy is the nicest person in the world but on that special occasion he acted exactly like the raidlead called him.

PT.3
And now to the final issue, WvW vs. GvG:
This is mentioned twice in the RULES:
HERE "disrupting other people’s game experience by not actively participating in matches in good faith

AND HERE " disrupting a PvP match by not actively playing in good faith, or any other form of PvP griefing, exploitation, or abuse

WvW is a game that is defined by 3v3 server matches, with capture and control points, which contribute to points gain every 15 minutes and adds up over the course of a match week to determine a winner for the overall ranking of a designated ladder. This was the intended design of the game, and all the crafting stations, jumping puzzles, bloodlust capture points, map completion points, WXP gains and ranks were integrated into that design, whether you like it or not. Stop complaining.

NO PLACE, in the vision and design and of this game mode is any official implementation of a GVG mechanic that actively contributes to any type of format that determines a server’s given rank. Nor is there any in-game support, arena, map, instance, points tracking, match-making, or venue for this ‘community made’ play style. So for the 15 min to 1 hour gvg’ers are claiming a spot on a map, points gain is being determined bay on official counter. And in doing so, the gvg’ers in question DID NOT “actively participate(ing) in matches in good faith” This can also be loosely interpreted under the “any other form of PvP griefing, exploitation, or abuse” rule (that us up to the discretion of the game designers, not the players). And to believe otherwise is a delusional rationalization that since they paid for the game, then the can do what they want.

GvG just is not endorsed or supported in the game in any form. Players claiming ‘their right’ to do it is never mentioned in the Rules of Conduct.

So stop crying about how Anet is screwing you, stop cussing at the Dev’s, stop calling for employee firings, stop interfering with the WvW players who actually do “have the right” to play the game in its intended form, stop comparing to ‘other’ games that support GvG, stop demanding answers to you self-righteous questions, and stop threating to leave the game or ban gem purchases. In essence, stop acting like petulant children and either play the game as it is intended to be according to the rules, or just go play a different game, as it is blatantly obvious that you are NOT satisfied with playing GW2.
If Anet wanted GvG in the game, none of these discussions would exist. But they didn’t. And with the way the “GvG Community” keeps disrespecting Anet as they do, it may NEVER be implemented into the game. SO DEAL WITH IT!!!

Why do people keep quoting PvP match manipulation? This isn’t PvP. It’s PvSiege

I had to laugh at Riondron copy/paste post because it has nothing to do with the discussion. Those rules are completely irrelevant and mean nothing in terms of this topic. All it says is “ANet can do whatever they want”. Sure they can. And as customers people can tell them how they feel.

Are you saying ANet is going to ban people if they GvG in WvW? They would never do something like that in a million years. That action itself would be a death sentence in terms of PR.