Guild Wars 2

The debate started by Chaos above brought something to my attention.
A friendly reminder to the participants:

Because a build might win by not only ORB’s good evaluation but also popularity votes, an originator should put extra effort in your build thread to generate more and more interest from the Crowd and redirect people to this thread to vote for your build if they like it.
Take Natsu’s Blackwater or Chaos Archangel’s thread as an example if you’re still not sure how to do it.

Speaking of which, voting will be available as soon as the application closes, that is, on the deadline 22th Dec, so please prepare yourself, people of the Crowd

Ok, updated scoreboard to include 2 more builds from Arikyali and Dondogora.

Build Name: Phantasmic Interruptions
Originator name: Sticker Happy
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Phantasmic-Interruptions-Phantasm-Lockdown/first#post3349368

So Aside from all of the arguments happening in this thread(which is totally legit i mean I understand where all of you are getting your opinions from), let’s promise as a Mesmer Community that we will make sure all builds are equally given the chance to shine. I mean every one of these builds that will be on the contest, whether they have 10 views, or even 100,000,000,000 views. If they happen to have a higher skill cap, well, all the more reason to delve into it deeply and bring out the best of the build. Plz promise me that Mesmer Community. I really really truly hope you guys take my words to heart.

#DecemberBotM

@Menace

Amen to that.

I took a look at:
The Smurf
Poof Gone Retaliate
Mesmerizing Army

They all look original and should be set.

The Holy Hell builds are original, but pending approval since there’s sorta 3 of them.

Chaos.3579:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Xavi.6591:

@Chaos

I don’t see the point of making builds that are not effective and more difficult to use. Just because it is ‘noob friendly’ doesn’t make it a bad build.

Oh, I didn’t mean to imply that at all! (and there isn’t a point of a build that’s both ineffective and difficult… unless it’s hella fun for personal use =P )

I meant that the BoTM doesn’t score builds simply based off how easy they are to use. Every class has builds that are easier for newcomers to pick up and there’s never anything wrong with that.

Edit: I’m so dumb. -_- You meant the other Chaos.

I do have a problem when people try to demean someone else’s win with stuff like “Oh you’re playing a easymode Mesmer. Play a class that takes skill” or “Only noobs use PU”. Every build has it’s strengths and weakness, but people love to try and salvage their pride by talking down on their opponent or making them seem “lesser” in some way. That kind of thinking is counterproductive to learning and growing from your mistakes.

If you have a problem with people demeaning other peoples builds.
Then I have a problem when people boast themselves when they are using a noob build.
If you use a cheap easy to use and yet effective build you do not have the right to consider yourself more superior then someone that uses a harder to use and yet less effective build.

Many times I have found very egotistical people that beam with superiority from their effectiveness and don’t seam to realize that when using their OP build/spec/trait/skill their effectiveness is not relative to their skill nearly as someone using a more honorable build/spec/trait/skill.

So the best build is 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, no armor, runes, sigils, and just a focus? Surely it’d require the most amount of skill to succeed with.

You really need to read this http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/ in particular this http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

If I can find a build, and defeat my opponents with nothing more than mainhand sword swings, would you consider me cheap and playing easy, or a skilled player?

Update on Holy Hell Builds.

The advance scout build has been chosen to be entered, and it is original.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Chaos.3579:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Xavi.6591:

@Chaos

I don’t see the point of making builds that are not effective and more difficult to use. Just because it is ‘noob friendly’ doesn’t make it a bad build.

Oh, I didn’t mean to imply that at all! (and there isn’t a point of a build that’s both ineffective and difficult… unless it’s hella fun for personal use =P )

I meant that the BoTM doesn’t score builds simply based off how easy they are to use. Every class has builds that are easier for newcomers to pick up and there’s never anything wrong with that.

Edit: I’m so dumb. -_- You meant the other Chaos.

I do have a problem when people try to demean someone else’s win with stuff like “Oh you’re playing a easymode Mesmer. Play a class that takes skill” or “Only noobs use PU”. Every build has it’s strengths and weakness, but people love to try and salvage their pride by talking down on their opponent or making them seem “lesser” in some way. That kind of thinking is counterproductive to learning and growing from your mistakes.

If you have a problem with people demeaning other peoples builds.
Then I have a problem when people boast themselves when they are using a noob build.
If you use a cheap easy to use and yet effective build you do not have the right to consider yourself more superior then someone that uses a harder to use and yet less effective build.

Many times I have found very egotistical people that beam with superiority from their effectiveness and don’t seam to realize that when using their OP build/spec/trait/skill their effectiveness is not relative to their skill nearly as someone using a more honorable build/spec/trait/skill.

So the best build is 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, no armor, runes, sigils, and just a focus? Surely it’d require the most amount of skill to succeed with.

You really need to read this http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/ in particular this http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

If I can find a build, and defeat my opponents with nothing more than mainhand sword swings, would you consider me cheap and playing easy, or a skilled player?

Very funny how people keep jumping to the idiotic conclusion that I am trying to show everyone what a good build is.

In actuality I am giving a lecture on sportsmanship. Although it is funny how you people don’t seem to realize this

By your logic the best build is:
A build in which you are invulnerable, can instant kill your enemies, can heal your allies to full health remove all conditions/give all boons to your allies and have a a complete kitten nal of support and utility that is unmatched by anything in the game, and all from 1 button

^ this is the perfect build in terms of Low-skill to high-effectiveness.
The perfect build in effectiveness that anyone can use.
The idea that this build contest is based on.

However is the above build, achievable or not, very sportsmanship like?

Put simply anything above the average skill to effectiveness ratio from the bare minimum to this god like idea of a build above is not very sporting.
While anything below the average skill to effectiveness ratio is a handicap that is created at the builds designers hand. By choice or by unintentionally doing it.

My issue with this thread, and somewhat with the OMFG guild is that there is no sense of sportsmanship, no encouragement to use builds that require more skill so as to increase the abilities of fellow mesmers. No sense of wanting to create a challenge. Rather to destroy it.

There is no measures of balance in this build contest so that average-skill to average-effectiveness ratio builds can truly compete with less skill to effectiveness ratio builds.
All builds at average and above have roughly the same potential. however above average builds can reach that potential far more easily and with less skill than other builds, and perhaps can exceed it.

Thus the very nature of this thread being to popularize the most powerful and yet unique build with no countermeasures against un-sportsmanship like features is idiotic and will only damage the game if it is a build that exceeds a certain level of low-skill to high-effectiveness ratio (Most likely through a cheap skill dulling combo of traits,gear skills),and becomes too popular.

If I am wrong. What balance measures is there to allow average specs that do not have a cheap low skill to high effectiveness part(s) in their builds to compete?
And we’re is there if any a encouragement to use not use cheap specs that require a low amount of skill to reach a high amount of effectiveness and to instead use something that requires something that takes more skill to have the same effect, and thus increase the skill of the Mesmers in this forum.

I’d use that build.

That’s because I play to win, I don’t abide by some arbitrary set of playing rules that weaker opponents try to make up. When I play, I play with the intention of demolishing my opponents using every underhanded and over handed and otherwise possible trick I know, and I absolutely assume that my opponents will do precisely the same.

I really do suggest you read that passage that Ross Biddle posted, it should be quite informative for you.

See, here’s the problem. You see ‘skill’ as some odd measurement that’s used to describe how handicapped a player can make themselves. This makes you a bad player. Skill is ultimately who wins in the end. If you can’t beat someone else, they are more skilled than you. If their build happens to hard-counter yours, then they’re simply more skilled at picking effective builds.

Complaining about ‘no skill builds’ is a worthless waste of time, because there’s no such thing. Builds aren’t skilled, players are, and if you lose, you are less skilled than your opponent. That’s simply it.

Chaos… Did you read anything that I wrote to you?

Your concern is understandable.. but misplaced. Especially about the OMFG guild, I don’t even know where that one came from. I’m not gonna repeat myself, but I’ll add this one thing..

Whenever someone posts a build, or asks someone from OMFG (which, again, is not separate from the forums as much as a tool for the people from the forums to get together) for help they don’t get told things like, “Just run Blackwater its easy and effective.” they get help tailoring their build to their preferences, be it mantras or signets or conditions or whatever. However it’d be irresponsible not to inform the person “signets are generally frowned upon since they dont synergize well” or “its not good to make a full-mantra build” but usually theres an explaination why rather than someone just trolling with “lol signets.. moving on”

Look at the other forums and see how much diversity is enouraged (lord knows the PvP forums are full of close-mindedness). In the Mesmer forums someone can actually conceive a Signet build, even if its not the most optimal, and still get advice on making it better. From my experience, this forum offers more diversity than any of the others, almost always encouraging new ideas and trying to advance the Mesmer class in new creative ways. Hell, just look at the builds entered into this BoTM and tell me if any of them are faceroll easy? Look at the diversity in the builds people are running, from shatter to lockdown to signets, mantras, clone spamming.. EVERYTHING! People literally try EVERYTHING with the Mesmer and it’s that positive creative energy that makes the class and theorycrafting so fun.

I think you’re looking at the contest, the guild, and the people on these forums in general a bit too jaded dude. There’s more diversity here than anywhere else… ’cept maybe Engineer.

Actually, I read that article too, and I don’t entirely agree with it.

I went through the Street Fighter Scrub process for about 2 years, and did literally everything they said scrubs do, making my own rules as I go .. not spamming fireball, ect. and I definitely see where the article is coming from now that I’ve played fighting games competitively, but that article isn’t entirely correct. There’s a middle-ground between playing for fun, playing to learn, and playing to “win.” Competitively it makes sense to spam “cheap” tactics if it’ll win you $10,000 (/cough MvC3 Phoenix) but when playing casually spamming stuff you KNOW your opponent can’t handle and “running away” kills the fun of the game. Yes, it’s true, that eventually you adapt to the tactic and it suddenly doesn’t become so cheap but that involves a level of experience th- … oh wait I see your point. Nevermind.

What Chaos is talking about is the fact that someone is boosting their own ego with a powerful build, thinking they’re MLG pro because the build/character is stronger than others… which will encourage other people to pick that same build up, thus the entire skill requirement for the class overall becomes diminished as more and more people flock to this easy build. Then more easy builds get produced and the Mesmer profession in general gets diminished from a prestigious class that takes actual skill to be good with to .. well, magical Warriors. He feels that this contest and OMFG perpetuates that rather than discourages it.

Pyroatheist.9031:

I’d use that build.

That’s because I play to win, I don’t abide by some arbitrary set of playing rules that weaker opponents try to make up. When I play, I play with the intention of demolishing my opponents using every underhanded and over handed and otherwise possible trick I know, and I absolutely assume that my opponents will do precisely the same.

I really do suggest you read that passage that Ross Biddle posted, it should be quite informative for you.

Put simply.
You will do anything to win correct? No matter how dirty, how vile, and will also assume that your opponent is doing the same correct? Would you do this in everything you do?

Technically the things that would give you the advantage would be allowed by the games rules, simply flaws left unchecked by the games creators.

If this was a single player game I would not mind this. Because it’s your fun and has no impact on the fun of others. Any cheap trick that is there to be found I would not mind using or you using because it is our fun and ours alone.

However this is a multiplayer game were your actions have impact on the fun of others.
If you run a build that uses cheap tricks that are still allowed by the laws of the game you are damaging the fun of anyone that is actually playing the game the way it was attempted to be made. A fair game.

However because a perfect fair game cannot be made this complex any imperfections in the game is what you can take advantage of.

So go ahead and run a build were you take advantage of any imperfection in the balance system that gives you a advantage. Does not matter if you crush me or anyone playing the game fairly. Because when I or anyone crush you without using any cheap imperfections of the balance system. We will make a bigger impact.

Guys, I know might be interfering and everything, but could you guys somehow tone down the voices or stop fighting all together? BotM is in like 9 days or something, and I wish people start that contest and put all of the bad things behind them.

@Chaos. Listen. A Lot of people here in this thread and in this Mesmer forum I bet agree with you a lot, they just don’t want to agree with you and even want to argue with you because you come on somewhat like a truck, which is fine, since you are very passionate on that matter. I personally agree with you, but I guess it’s up to the people’s own opinions to agree with you or not.

@everyone else. I understand maybe Chaos is coming on a little too strong and passionate, but maybe it is just because he wants to make sure other builds in this contest will get more playing time and not get rejected just because they rely a bit more on skill cap. I personally think that if we were to promote tough builds to play, we can somehow evolve as a Mesmer community.

so guys, try to settle out everything in the next 5 posts or so, it will be a huge accomplishment in itself that you guys were able to come together

@Menace: If chaos was arguing towards the purpose of ensuring that all the BOTM builds get a fair try, you’d have a point, but he’s not. You give him far too much credit. He is simply arguing on a concept unrelated to the BOTM.

Who are you to judge how this game was meant to be played? You seem awfully unqualified to me. The only people qualified to make judgements on how this game is meant to be played are the devs themselves, and since they control what goes into the game, one must assume that every underhanded trick is intended until patched out.

How am I damaging the fun of others by playing to win? Because I’m beating them? Why am I beating them? Lets explore that a bit more.

I’m beating another person for what reason? Perhaps it is because I’m more skilled than they are. I beat them out of sheer force of reaction time excellence and tactical superiority. In that case, how can you argue that my way of playing is not valid simply because I am better?

Perhaps it is because my build is more effective than theirs. In this case, why should I take pity on someone using a less effective build? If they truly wanted to win, if that was actually their goal in playing the game, then they would also be using an optimized build. Since they aren’t using an optimized build, the conclusion can be drawn that winning is not their goal, and so me beating them is not ruining their fun.

Perhaps it is a combination of both. However, in either case you still have no room to argue that it is ruining other’s enjoyment of the game or not playing the game it was meant to be played.

Ultimately, you can complain however much you want. You can shake your fists on the forums and scream ‘OP noob using a no skill build’ all you want, but in the end when you get demolished by someone playing to win, I will have no sympathy for you, or anyone else, just another ant crushed under my boot.

Pyroatheist.9031:

@Menace:

1) just really? Menace? Heh. Thank you for the hostility

Pyroatheist.9031:

If chaos was arguing towards the purpose of ensuring that all the BOTM builds get a fair try, you’d have a point, but he’s not. You give him far too much credit. He is simply arguing on a concept unrelated to the BOTM.

1) Although this was not my only argument this was one of my arguments.
You do remember reading that I was angry that
“there is no measures to balance between low-skill high-effectiveness to high-skill low-effectiveness builds”

Pyroatheist.9031:

Who are you to judge how this game was meant to be played? You seem awfully unqualified to me. The only people qualified to make judgements on how this game is meant to be played are the devs themselves, and since they control what goes into the game, one must assume that every underhanded trick is intended until patched out.

1)Your right. (Partially) I have no right to judge and enforce my ideals of how this game is suppose to be played.

2)however as a player of this game I do have the right to express my opinion about the balance of the game. And no arenanet is not the only people qualified to judge this game. Every player of the game has that right. But anet has the right to change the game and enforce it.

3)what you have to understand is that arena net is not perfect. They are human(or so I hope <.< ), and thus the game has flaws. So no, not every underhanded trick and imperfection that you can take advantage of is intended, and thus should be used with high discretion or most desirably NOT at ALL.
As a example. Do you remember karma exploits???

Pyroatheist.9031:

How am I damaging the fun of others by playing to win? Because I’m beating them? Why am I beating them? Lets explore that a bit more.
I’m beating another person for what reason? Perhaps it is because I’m more skilled than they are. I beat them out of sheer force of reaction time excellence and tactical superiority. In that case, how can you argue that my way of playing is not valid simply because I am better?

1) you really need to read my posts more accurately.

2)I said that you are damaging the fun of anyone that is playing the game without utilizing any advantages through imperfections while you are doing the opposite.

3) it may very well be that your timing and execution are very skillful. However that is not the only factor that you need to take in to consideration. You need to also take in to consideration how good your build is before you can accurately equate your skill to effectiveness ratio. thus if your build is OP it may very well be your build that is your effectiveness and not your skill.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Perhaps it is because my build is more effective than theirs. In this case, why should I take pity on someone using a less effective build? If they truly wanted to win, if that was actually their goal in playing the game, then they would also be using an optimized build. Since they aren’t using an optimized build, the conclusion can be drawn that winning is not their goal, and so me beating them is not ruining their fun.

1) your right. IF their ONLY goal is to win THROUGH any means then they should run the most OP/ powerful build possible.
2) however players have more goals than that simple minded idea. Some actually have a sense of honor or sportsmanship. Thus they want to fight in fair terms with their opponent. Granted if your build is better than theirs and then lose while also taking in to account the skill factor. Then the only players a fault are the losers for not having fun.

However if you beat them with a OP build using cheap advantages through imperfections of the balance system then the person at fault is you for taking away their fun.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Perhaps it is a combination of both. However, in either case you still have no room to argue that it is ruining other’s enjoyment of the game or not playing the game it was meant to be played.

1) It is always both. Skill and build are the 2 factors that make up the combat system.
And my ROOM to argue Is that some builds are too powerful through imbalances in the combat system, and imbalance this balance equation of skill plus build=effectiveness.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Ultimately, you can complain however much you want. You can shake your fists on the forums and scream ‘OP noob using a no skill build’ all you want, but in the end when you get demolished by someone playing to win, I will have no sympathy for you, or anyone else, just another ant crushed under my boot.

Interesting. Well in the exact same scenario I have no sympathy for you. If you used imbalances of the combat system You won on unfair terms. Thus your victory is by itself a lie and thus is sour.

And when I or anyone else running a fair and balanced build not using any imbalances of the combat system in the build beat you. You who if using a cheap OP build that utilizes as many imbalances as you can get your hand on. Well then.
When you are crushed you are not even worthy of the word ant. You are something less. Something that’s Not meant to describe your effectiveness. But instead to describe your honor integrity and sportsmanship. Pathetic in simple terms. And the more pathetic for the more skill you have.

For you who had the advantage had lost.

Lastly. Every thread can be criticized. I have posted my arguments peacefully but vigorously.
I have posted my criticism and have been heard. Regardless if some have been hostile towards me I am done.

Hmm. Enjoy the contest. I would hope that issues that I have brought up are fixed or at least attemted to be in this contest and any in the future,
I do not want the mesmer to devolve in to a very few little-skill high-effectiveness builds

I am done. I will not post anything more on this thread
Enjoy your day. And have fun while respecting the fun of others!

Pyroathiest just went in.

Given Chaos has said his/her peace, I don’t wanna belabor this topic, so I’ll stop after this. Love the attention this thread is likely getting, though.

The point being made is clear, but completely up to opinion after that. It’s important to keep in mind that there is a great deal of subjectivity involved when declaring a build is OP.

Many players feel the way Chaos does. For example, take your healing signet warriors and spirit rangers. Players fill the air with expletives whenever they approach one in PvP because in their opinion their opponent is playing a cheesy, skill-less build. Of course they don’t say anything like that when they have one on their team. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen a dev on a PvP stream call out the fact that they believe spirit rangers require skill to play well. So here we have subjectivity at it’s best. One can say blackwater is cheesy and easy to play when others definitely would disagree.

I respect the opinion but I think it’s a bunch of QQ. I get the point yes, but it gets old. I understand a lot of players leave the game over this issue and that’s their prerogative.

The only thing I could remotely see done with the contest in the future would be to attempt to split the builds into two categories based on skill cap. Again though, you have the subjectivity of the judges. Maybe something like that could be done, but it just isn’t that simple. I honestly don’t like the idea but maybe others do.

As I stated above, if we want people to become more aware of the builds with a higher skill cap, it’s up to each individual to do it. Unfortunately, whining about it does nothing.

@Chaos: There are other games in which something called a ‘banlist’ is formally recognized by the players (Dragon Nest specifically). This is a list of skills that the players have en mass decided are too powerful and unbalanced to be used in fair 1v1 fights. All honorable players honor the banlist.

However, even in that game, when you get to the competitive ladder matches, all bets are off. People play to win, it’s as simple as that.

In GW2 there is no banlist. Some people complain about builds, some people complain about other builds, and some people complain about no builds. There is no structure of order to the complaints. If there were, perhaps you could have a point, but there is not. Your arguments all ultimately devolve into “I personally think you are using an op build, so you have no skill”, and that means nothing. Your opinion doesn’t matter. Mine doesn’t either, nor does any other individual player’s opinion. Only with mass consensus does a statement like that carry any weight, and that is where your arguments will all ultimately fall apart.

Pyroatheist.9031:

I really do suggest you read that passage that Ross Biddle posted, it should be quite informative for you.

In particular:

“I once played a scrub who was actually quite good. That is, he knew the rules of the game well, he knew the character matchups well, and he knew what to do in most situations. But his web of mental rules kept him from truly playing to win. He cried cheap as I beat him with “no skill moves” while he performed many difficult dragon punches. He cried cheap when I threw him five times in a row asking, “Is that all you know how to do? Throw?” I gave him the best advice he could ever hear. I told him, “Play to win, not to do ‘difficult moves.’” This was a big moment in that scrub’s life. He could either ignore his losses and continue living in his mental prison or analyze why he lost, shed his rules, and reach the next level of play.

I’ve never been to a tournament where there was a prize for the winner and another prize for the player who did many difficult moves. I’ve also never seen a prize for a player who played “in an innovative way.”"

skcamow.3527:

The only thing I could remotely see done with the contest in the future would be to attempt to split the builds into two categories based on skill cap.

This would be a mistake.

You can’t define the skill of your opponent based on his build. You base the skill of your opponent based on if he defeats you or not. It’s a simple metric “My opponent is more skilled that I”. If you can find a way to defeat your opponent (using whatever build he’s using), then you’re more skilled than he is. Until your next engagement when he learns from your victory, alters himself, and elevates himself to becoming more skillful.

Someone might shout “PU is OP, cheap, and cheese! and requires no [i]skill[i].” But really what they’re saying is “I am not skilled enough to beat someone using PU”. We shouldn’t categorize builds using PU as an easier skill category. On the contrary, if by using PU the players using the build are victorious, they are skilled players, and that needs to be celebrated. It encourages thought and creativity. Ever see a thread posted asking “Help! How do I beat X build???”. That’s the pressure of people out there playing (and in effect building) to win. That pressure only serves to create better players; more skill.

I just want to throw this in for posterity

In Street Fighter, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone is often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield that will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.

You will not see a classic scrub throw his opponent five times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimizes his chances of winning? Here we’ve encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a scrub by throwing projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you—that’s cheap. If you throw him repeatedly, that’s cheap, too. We’ve covered that one. If you block for fifty seconds doing no moves, that’s cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap. Street Fighter was just one example; I could have picked any competitive game at all

Also, consider this build, I called it The Grilled Cheese build (note the use of Cheese. It’s actually a reference to its ineffectiveness under most circumstances).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6NeyXVwDaw

The concept was to use nothing but staff 2 clones, proccing 2 second burns from that and also mimic, and in the right circumstances it’s very effective. Now a scrub might label that cheap, but if my opponent can’t even get passed my basic clones basic attack, and 1 condition, why should I offer him anything more?

Just to reduce at least some of the tension here…

Chaos.3579:

Pyroatheist.9031:

@Menace:

1) just really? Menace? Heh. Thank you for the hostility

Pyro was directing his comments at “themenaceofseventhdimension”, and used “menace” as a shorthand. He wasn’t insulting you.

Ok, I have had enough.

@Chaos.3579,

I highly recommend taking your ranting elsewhere, it is, in its entirety, unwelcome in our BOTM Build of the Month contest.

This thread here is for our community to sign up their builds and put them to the test against many other builds, iron them out and aim to polish them into great builds, not to rant about how you (and nobody really cares about your opinion about this here, and I can guarantee the majority of this community will disagree with you) don’t think using good builds is fair.

Now, from what I have gathered, I see you have a significant problem with many of the good and effective builds out there that the Mesmer community enjoys using, and will continue to enjoy using. If you think the build is too easy and too effective (Which makes for a pretty good build), then don’t use it, simple as that, it is un-necessary to post about it here of all places.

As for your comments about “Sportsmanship” its a game, why should I limit myself just to make it easier for my opponents? Its Play to win I am going to use the most effective build I can and every little bit of skill I have as a gamer to beat the shizznickle out of my opponents, and I really couldn’t care less if they get mad about it or have a cry because they lost. Just remember that everyone else out there is also using their own “Easy and Effective” builds to try and do the exact same thing to me, grind me into the ground. That’s how we are. that’s what we do.

So please, take it elsewhere, make your own thread if you want to rant (it wont last long) it is just off-topic and unwelcome.

To everyone else:
Keep up the good work! it looks like we will be seeing many good builds this month around.

Section 2 and Section 3 are updated. We currently have 6 builds participating in the contest, 5 are fully registered and 1 is currently under review.

For the contest:

Build Name: The Shmantra-er
Originator: Bunda
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Build-The-Shmantra-er/first#post3370939

Edit: made a slight change on account of staff being a lot more fun to play on this.

Build Name: Merry Mantras
Originator: Dekk
Link to Thread

Section 2 updated to include Bunda’s The Shmantra-er and Dekk’s Merry Mantras builds.

Build Name: Phants Lock
Originator: Recursive Illusion
The Build

Because I am bored at work cause the students have finals I am going to chime in. ^^

All this talk about skill level and that being a deciding factor in a build or not is kind of silly. Ease of use pretty much is what makes a good build. If build A can preform as well as build B and is easier to use then build A wins. If the voters find a build to require skill to be good that they simply do not posses than that build is effectively not affective.

Ease of use is pretty much how things like this should be voted for ya?

^so you’re saying it has to be user friendly?

Let’s not forget fun, as well. I would think that “fun to play” is a major factor in build success (and unfortunately, for example, a potential weakness of, say, mantra builds).

Looking for an official OMFG tester for my posted build. Preferably with lockdown/interrupt experience, 3 references, letter of recommendation, and CV or resume including AP and hours playing mesmer… or a simple ingame message/whisper.

@Dekk

Im not a tester but I can test it for you not for BotM though,. just imporvements/suggestion purposes.

I only play interrupt/lockdown mesmer nothing else

StickerHappy.8052:

@Dekk

Im not a tester but I can test it for you not for BotM though,. just imporvements/suggestion purposes.

I only play interrupt/lockdown mesmer nothing else

Sure. Those high toughness+regen warriors… Thinking that swapping to rampagers or rabid earrings would help.

Wow many drama you found here Pyro

Just a question, my latets steup is ment for wvwvw as it involves food etc. As its orientated for a specific part of gameplay is it still of interest?

It uses old shatter Cat heavy,s hoelbrak runes for might stacking and less condi uptime, centers around might stacking with food, runes and interupts, high toughness, pu and power based dmg. The mightstacks give a condition preasure bonus. It also involves capability to with 1 change of a trait and swap GS for staff to be more survival based and give mobility for solo roaming.

Build name: Hidden Cat
Originator name: Osicat
Link to build thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-WvWvW-Pve-Shatter-Cat-2013-12-16/first

/Osicat

Osi I think the link is broken

Im sorry, sorted

/Osicat

if its possible i have another build i want to post here
if not i hope you like it anyway

build name: pooff the condiman
originator: messiah
link: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Pooff-the-condiman

This is kitten awesome. Even Osicat has joined us, which is quite a good thing. I hope more people will join us. Guys, before we actually launch this contest, you guys wanna meet someday and hold build testing/dueling in our arena, where we can hone our skills?

Note: This will of course not affect your status in the actual contest when that comes.

Er actually.. we may need to impose a limit on how many builds can enter. The jusges have only so much time. May need to call in skcamow too

What Chaos said. I was thinking of submitting my build too, but there seems to be a whole bunch here already. I just want some advice/help on tweaking it to see how far it can go, then maybe I can submit for the next round.

builds and playstyles, it’s like the ying and the yang…the balance between the build and how the individual player plays it. this is a contest and a fun one within the mesmer forums. it’s not about the best builds…let me explain, some of us can play the guitar better than the piano…some can play piano better than guitar…but in the end we all make music…what about those who can’t play music? how would you know if nobody builds guitars or pianos? maybe some trumpets…or a flute…i’ve seen people make music using bunch of beer bottles filled with water and hitting trashcans. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8_Ts5fMVho

Hey keenlam, since there’s already so many builds entering and not enough testers going around, I’ll retract my build from the contest to free up both myself and Warlord of Chaos as testers. Will be happy to participate next time!

@Shadow: That was deep.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Hey keenlam, since there’s already so many builds entering and not enough testers going around, I’ll retract my build from the contest to free up both myself and Warlord of Chaos as testers. Will be happy to participate next time!

@Shadow: That was deep.

Instead of that, lets just do this.

There are 8 builds in the contest. Registration is locked. If you’d like to enter your build in the next BOTM contest, hold on to it and enter it then, and it will be allowed.

Or.. that. That works.

(Can a participant double as a tester for another person’s build?)

If there are too many you’re welcome to withdraw mine. I’m finding it pretty powerful, but it’s an annoying button mashing mess, and mantras just aren’t that fun to play, even if the build is viable.

@ messiah: I’m afraid u can only have 1 build for the contest.

@ Osicat: Glad to have you in the contest, Osicat. Have you joined the guild yet? If not, could you please just join us in [OMFG] so that you’re eligible for the contest.

@ Chaos: there’s nothing to prevent you from testing multiple builds, but you can only be registered to 1 build. Remember the tester of a winning build will get a reward too so you can’t just be registered as tester of multiple builds.

@ All:
Hi guys, at the moment, there are 10 builds submitted for this contest (check Section 2) which is very good. The contest has its good share of interest so thank you all.
I agree that a cap of 8 builds per contest like Pyro suggested is a good measure to ensure builds are thoroughly tested given our limited time.
I personally think the builds can be treated on a “first come first serve” basis to make it fair and square. But if anyone wants to withdraw and wait for next contest, it’s fine too.
We will have the list of builds finalized by 22th/Dec and it will be based on your last post here (so Chaos and Bunda, if u change your mind and want your build to stay for this contest, please repost and confirm)

@ ORB members including skcamow: Guys, if you can have all 10 builds reviewed for originality by 22th/Dec, that would be great. Also, Alissah might need some catching up on how the ORB’s doing. And it looks like some extra help from skcamow could make quite a difference as well.

@ Testers in the guild: Currently we don’t have many testers to assist originators in this contest, so if you’re a tester and want to help out your guildies, please voice your interest in this thread. Thank you so much.

I had a look at;
StickerHappy’s Phantasmic Interruptions
Bunda’s The Shmantra-er
Dekk’s Merry Mantras
I did a bit of digging around our build lists and recent builds posted around, and from my own terrible memory of what I have seen posted around (I find myself at least taking a look at pretty much every build that gets posted here) and as far as I could tell, these builds originality are fine and should be good to go.

If I happened to have missed any older build and the originality assessment was incorrect, I do apologise, I am a bit tired right now :’(