Guild Wars 2

Sebrent.3625:

Why doesn’t my Mesmer veil stack with any form of stealth in the game?

It’s inconsistent.

No it’s not, every single line fields that gives a random buffs (necro spectral wall, mesmer veil or temporal curtain) doesn’t stack the buff if it’s already active. While it honestly sounds like a bug (probably because they didn’t find a way to limit the wall buff cumulation which makes sense with the current buff stacks available on one player) it is currently consistent.

That being said, if i was anet i’d have already limited stealth stacking to 3s (or 4s with stealth), i’d have nerfed some traits (shadow’s embrace limited to one condition when entering stealth and infusion of shadow to only work every 5s).

Still thinking this class is currently broken (not op nor up, broken) and need a major rework.

so i think these anti stealth traps were being implemented do to zergs running thru multiple/timed mesmer invis veils. i think it basically nerfing thief defense/offense is like collateral dmg. in other words i dont believe its intentionally targeted at thieves as they really cant do mass invis like mesmer and its not like thieves are causing and real problems when taking a keep/tower/camp etc….nothing op anyway.

sorrow.2364:

Travlane.5948:

its usually 4 intiative as you get more total dmg with blowing it up before it lands. and he brought up an example on necros so i elaborated in a “different light” . i mean making necros look horrible is just a travesty. ive met great ones that were just sick 1 v 1 like gorath for example. and they are superb in a group as they spread dmg and conditions around. thieves cant do as much dmg as necros (collectively). if a thief hits 1 person for 1k a necro hits 5 for 600. not as strong in 1 v 1 but stronger in wvw/team play. hands down.

Necros are nearly horrible. They have some skills with are hated to some professions, but excluding those cases, they are overall horrible. You just want to take a look to their traits to get an idea. People who plays Necro and are actually effective with it either are 10x better or they are playing the right counter to the build you are running. Anyway, we don’t want to talk about Necros here, right?

You don’t want to explode your cluster bomb, you won’t trigger the blast finisher. I sometimes like to run around with shortbow blast finishing in every field I see. You have no idea how useful I am. Unloading all my initiative in a Fire field means 15+ stacks of might on 5 people, which is an HUGE damage boost. Same applies to Water fields, light fields or smoke fields. Blast finishing into them is an huge support to your team and thief is the only profession capable to do so thanks to the initiative system. You are underrating this feature quite much.

To answer the resting part of your reasoning, I’ll just link you a video.
Keep in mind that most of the skill/traits used in this video did not get a nerf, so it can be still done today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7OYniHrGqE

you used a video from dec 2012. culling was present…. :P

I think how this is implemented will directly affect how important it is. If the traps take a while to set up, like the frost traps with the Ogre (Ettins?) in Gerdarran Fields, or the traps with the Boars in Queensdale, then it won’t be so bad. Because these traps will be static and risky to set up. As long as they require time to set up they won’t be too bad.

On the other hand, if the traps are like the thief and ranger traps, then we may have a problem.

The size of the trap also matters. A reveal trap that can instantly cover a shadow refuge will break the class.

@ TOOBZ i totally agree. either way you look at it….its another nerf (no matter big or small) against thieves. like what…28th nerf? weve gotten one buff LS (thief specific buff…not including things like signets that are all classes). all these add up. thief burst is dead. we only have a combo now….CND BS…..not complaining as have to just accept it or quit/no spend money. so all im saying its its adding up.

@Travlane: I don’t care how it is applied. I care that it stacks.

@Shemsu: So one set of skills is not allowed to stack with anything but another is allowed to because of the way they are thrown down? We’ll have to agree to disagree.

I think Puru nailed it on the head why it’s like this … inability to come up with a workaround for the wall skills. However, that doesn’t excuse that ArenaNet allows other skills to stack it.

What’s also amusing is that various boons and conditions have caps on their durations. For example, confusion can only last 10 seconds max. There is a cap on it. Why they didn’t cap stealth to 5s is beyond me.

Yeah, one of the things Kylia said on the Mesmerized podcast (I also play a mesmer) is that Arena net seems to be trying to make the game easier for Newbies at the expense of complexity and nuance.

Which is a shame. At some point we will all just be hitting each other with virtual sticks (but not peg legs, no… that would be bad.)

Sebrent.3625:

What’s also amusing is that various boons and conditions have caps on their durations. For example, confusion can only last 10 seconds max. There is a cap on it. Why they didn’t cap stealth to 5s is beyond me.

because they capped it at 15 seconds instead so that skills like shadow refuge would work the way they intended it to.

As for the skill stacking, who knows, perhaps anet decided that it would be balanced to give mesmers who have access to a variety of things “hide in shadows” effect while thieves who utilize something at one of their core mechanics get the “stealth” effect. Who knows.

Actually I dont think its unintended that wall skills dont stack, as there are other non-stacking buffs from certain traits, that otherwise could be stacked. ie. many classes can stack regen all day long. Thief has two ways to actively apply regen, Hide in Shadows the heal skill, and shadow protector trait, HiS regen stacks with everything, Shadow protector doesnt stack with anything

Sebrent.3625:

@Travlane: I don’t care how it is applied. I care that it stacks.

@Shemsu: So one set of skills is not allowed to stack with anything but another is allowed to because of the way they are thrown down? We’ll have to agree to disagree.

I think Puru nailed it on the head why it’s like this … inability to come up with a workaround for the wall skills. However, that doesn’t excuse that ArenaNet allows other skills to stack it.

What’s also amusing is that various boons and conditions have caps on their durations. For example, confusion can only last 10 seconds max. There is a cap on it. Why they didn’t cap stealth to 5s is beyond me.

unfortunately thats how it matters though…application…..mesmer skills dont create fields u can leave/blast and dont have the direct “invis” or “stealth” utilities….they all do area or target ground. i think one doesnt tho i forgot the name

The issue with thief stealth stacking comes with the good thieves who are smart enough to know when to disengage and take advantage of traited regen/rejuv from stealth. They can soft reset a fight instead of completely resetting it. It’s also quite nice for those same thieves that that same build is also giving them might.

Sorry, but traps are to us, what stealth is to the rest of the community. Everyone complains about how OP we are, I have a feeling that these traps are going to kitten our stealth in WvW, which may (and I actually hope) leads to PvE. I don’t abuse Stealth, I use it to engage, surprise, chase, and disengage. I don’t use the D/P build of heartseeker+smoke field, so the change won’t destory my build as much just slightly hender it.

If I was a D/P build, I’d be kitten , however the D/P build is kinda cheap imho (I’m very agaisnt Meta’s so :P) so I’m kinda happy, kinda sad (cause its affecting my class) quite bitter sweet.

As a Commander though its another tool that I will be able to use in defense and offense of zergs

Lol, this just came to mind…what if by “Trap” it adds to the skills of the Classes with “Traps” (Ranger and Thief) and thus only those classes get access to the De-Stealthing Trap? XD Ranger and Thief get a buff woooo!

@Tengu:
The thief community reacts like this to anything they even remotely think might make them less powerful/troll-ish.

What you think this will do to thieves is somewhat silly given we have no information about how traps will function. For all we know, they could be some NPC that casts “reveal all you darn Mesmers hiding in this tower/keep … no portal from you!”.

Furthermore, I’d think that Thieves, the kings of roaming, would be overjoyed to read that they may have a tool for helping them further troll enemy forces. What class is better suited for placing traps between a supply camp and tower/keep than the Thief? No one.

But no, the thief community largely focuses on what they perceive to be an anti-thief measure when it is likely going to reduce the effectiveness of Mesmer in WvW (we’re pretty popular there with our group stealth and portals) and allow roamers to have an even great impact … thereby improveing the quality of life of Thieves that enjoy roaming.

As far as your only traps for thieves and rangers idea … even though I’m a ranger/mesmer, I’m not a fan of it.

Sebrent.3625:

But no, the thief community largely focuses on what they perceive to be an anti-thief measure….

the total quantity of stealth produced by thieves >> that of engis mesmers and rangers combined.

@Sebrent

While a lot of this may be a fair amount of fearmongering, I think threads like this are helpful to the development team who may not have completely thought it through. For example “oh yeah, this will render shadow refuge useless, allow us to reconsider.”

However, as I stated before, I think the effect of this is very implementation dependent.

Thats mostly because thieves effectiveness is already debatable yes we can be strong to the level of perceived overly so against brand spanking new players still running around in full glass, but against people that are experienced we just have to hope were that much better than they are because our mechanics don’t allow for static advantages.

When you introduce things like anti-stealth mechanics it allows those new people to fight back in a way that doesn’t require them actually learning to fight (which in of itself is bad enough) but if those tools then get to be used freely by people that are already beating thieves more than thieves are beating them then you get the situation where thieves are stuck only ever being useful against the new people/terrible people (until they complain more until thieves aren’t even good there in the same way other games have done)

I mean fighting a mesmer can be a challenge, if your fighting someone new/bad who still can’t deal with the illusions then your going to have an easy time, but against someone who knows how to deal with them its going to be a fairly close fight, now what if they introduced an item that everyone could use that instantly destroys all illusions and prevents the use of those skills, the new/bad player now has a close fight with you because a lot of your moves are now gone, the good player just stomps you with little effort because they were already fighting well against you, now they remove some of your toolset to give them an even bigger advantage.

I like fighting a good thief with my Mesmer. It’s a friggin rapid-paced dog-fight. A bad thief merely misses his rotation that someone taught him, maybe tries to use stealth and do it again, fails, then looks at me confused while I flash him with butterflies to death (who’s trolling who now?! lol)

If there was going to be a class that new players complained most about, I’d argue that it’s Mesmers. We have enough stealth to be annoying and then we confuse people with copies. I know several veteran players that still say they “hate fighting mesmers”. Amusingly, some of them are our thieves.

Honestly though, do people think that ArenaNet is really going to let everyone and their mother drop anti-stealth traps as long as they have the copper/silver/gold for it?

Heck, one of these traps can remove the supply from a player. That is immensely powerful. I highly doubt traps are going to be thrown down willy nilly. If they are, we should find another game :-/ And not because of the stealth, but because of what that would mean.

As far as massive outcries being heard by the developers … Mesmers got hit hard by the confusion nerf. A condition that didn’t kill good players, just bad ones that don’t know that their screen changed colors, they have an effect on their character, a confusion icon on their bar, and damage is coming off them with the confusion effect every time they bash a key meant to stop bashing keys or cleanse conditions first.

Many believe it was in response to the glamour build, but it nerfed confusion mesmers hard (see even Osicat and SevenMirror retiring their condition builds), shatter builds are nerfed by it, Scepter got nerfed by it, Torch Phantasm got driven even more into the ground as the worst Phantasm. They were told about this before. It didn’t do a thing.

Additionally, there is a “massive outcry” from the Thief community anytime someone else gets a buff, something gets added/removed that thieves don’t/do like, or the word Thief is used in a sentence that doesn’t contain the words “being buffed”.

Lets not forget on average a Necromancer will walk away from a zerg with 30-50 bags, a Thief will leave with 0-5. Unless we can sit up on a keep/tower wall and spam 2.

And OFC there is an outcry, all we ever get is things taken away while other classes get new toys all the time. Engi’s and Thieves are red head stepchildren.

If you’re a thief and having trouble with getting bags in a zerg fight … wisen up and grab a shortbow as one of your weaponsets. I have yet to hear one of our thieves complain about how many bags they get in zerg fights.

This is an excellent example of what is wrong with the thief community.

Sebrent.3625:

If you’re a thief and having trouble with getting bags in a zerg fight … wisen up and grab a shortbow as one of your weaponsets. I have yet to hear one of our thieves complain about how many bags they get in zerg fights.

This is an excellent example of what is wrong with the thief community.

lol yeah okay.

Travlane.5948:

@sorrow….stopped watching the video at 3 mins bc it only chose upscales…. typical thief vid. but yeah i get ur point that said and put aside tho. yes a thief can stay on the outskirts…like ive been saying on several threads and pick off the weak sheep. idk just not a viable build for group play to me. 90% of the zerg was ignoring him as he was 3 hitting upscales …..happens to me too. soon as they turn their attention you have to high tail it out. thats why i like my other build (in my opinion) bc you dont have to.

I thought you knew the Thief’s playstyle when you picked it up as your profession.
I don’t mind about upscales, culling and so on. What that Thief did is easily doable in these days in WvWvW and, despite the fact that it doesn’t show all the potential of the blast finisher I mentioned earlier, which you seem to ignore in your answers, it show how a Thief can be useful in a group fight.
Pick the weak sheep and burst it down.

The thing is that, believe me or not, Necromancers, who you are claiming to be great in group fight, aren’t capable to kill a single target with their super-duper strong AoE without any burst profession around (see Thief).
What a Necromancer can do in group fight is to make sure you won’t find a full HP bar once your burst start, that’s all. No Necromancer can kill a whole zerg or even a single target all by himself without a proper burst profession around, while Thief are.

sorrow.2364:

Travlane.5948:

@sorrow….stopped watching the video at 3 mins bc it only chose upscales…. typical thief vid. but yeah i get ur point that said and put aside tho. yes a thief can stay on the outskirts…like ive been saying on several threads and pick off the weak sheep. idk just not a viable build for group play to me. 90% of the zerg was ignoring him as he was 3 hitting upscales …..happens to me too. soon as they turn their attention you have to high tail it out. thats why i like my other build (in my opinion) bc you dont have to.

I thought you knew the Thief’s playstyle when you picked it up as your profession.
I don’t mind about upscales, culling and so on. What that Thief did is easily doable in these days in WvWvW and, despite the fact that it doesn’t show all the potential of the blast finisher I mentioned earlier, which you seem to ignore in your answers, it show how a Thief can be useful in a group fight.
Pick the weak sheep and burst it down.

The thing is that, believe me or not, Necromancers, who you are claiming to be great in group fight, aren’t capable to kill a single target with their super-duper strong AoE without any burst profession around (see Thief).
What a Necromancer can do in group fight is to make sure you won’t find a full HP bar once your burst start, that’s all. No Necromancer can kill a whole zerg or even a single target all by himself without a proper burst profession around, while Thief are.

So what you’re trying to say is that necro and thief work well together? Necro gets a large selection of targets ready for the thief to burst down, then they both profit. What’s the problem? Only problem I can possibly see here is the issue with loot bags as necro will be able to tag more and better than the thief.

Also, 3 necros can melt a small zerg with all their conditoins. They all stack conditions and spread their epidemics out for max effectiveness.

obviously sorrow is not good at math …which is better in a 5 v 5 battle?

A) 5 people doing 1100 damage to 5 targets that have 16.8k hp
B) 5 people doing 2000 damage to 1 target that has 16.8k hp

the correct answer is A.
Lets say each class lands each damage at same rate(1 second per hit dmg) just for comparison. The thief team needs collectively 9 hits of 2k damage against each enemy to kill their 5 targets in the 5 v 5 fight. This means 9 seconds total until each opponent is dead/downed, granted no heals or dmg mitigation of sorts. Now lets say the necro is attacking the same but each is doing 1100 damage to each enemy per second. this means the necro team would need 3 attacks each (cumulatively 6k damage in total each attack) to down/kill the 5 target thieves. if you look at it in a mathematical sense…. the necros are betting in group play. in 1 v 1 it would obviously flip.

Fun Fact: Under this scenario a thief would have to hit each target for 6k per hit each second just to tie the necros and would need 8.4k each hit to out damage the necro/win against them in a 5 v 5.

lets not even go into a computer simulated fight and suggest they each time chain AOE’s and Fears…would be a joke.

Travlane.5948:

obviously sorrow is not good at math …which is better in a 5 v 5 battle?

A) 5 people doing 1100 damage to 5 targets that have 16.8k hp
B) 5 people doing 2000 damage to 1 target that has 16.8k hp

the correct answer is A.
Lets say each class lands each damage at same rate(1 second per hit dmg) just for comparison. The thief team needs collectively 9 hits of 2k damage against each enemy to kill their 5 targets in the 5 v 5 fight. This means 9 seconds total until each opponent is dead/downed, granted no heals or dmg mitigation of sorts. Now lets say the necro is attacking the same but each is doing 1100 damage to each enemy per second. this means the necro team would need 3 attacks each (cumulatively 6k damage in total each attack) to down/kill the 5 target thieves. if you look at it in a mathematical sense…. the necros are betting in group play. in 1 v 1 it would obviously flip.

Fun Fact: Under this scenario a thief would have to hit each target for 6k per hit each second just to tie the necros and would need 8.4k each hit to out damage the necro/win against them in a 5 v 5.

lets not even go into a computer simulated fight and suggest they each time chain AOE’s and Fears…would be a joke.

Actually, I’m not that bad at math.
What I usually don’t do, is to pick out numbers from nowhere and call it math.

What you did not consider into your calculation (assuming you are talking about condition damage, since Necros haven’t a reliable source of raw AoE damage):
1. Condition can be cleansed. Burst damage can’t.
2. Unless thief is using only its autoattack, which deals anyway more than 2k damage per second, the dps of a Thief is way higher.
3. Thief is capable to deal above 6k damage on a single hit, which is way more relevant than dealing 2k damage over 3 seconds. The variance is something you did not consider at all. Essentialy, 12k damage dealt all in the first second on a window of 10 seconds is way better than 1.2k damage equally distributed in each second, you should know why.
4. Thief has access to AoE too, in case you did not know. Don’t let me list them out, you should know those AoE.
5. Damage over time can be easily mitigated through heals. Burst damage can’t.
6. You did not consider enemy reaction at all. Thief needs half a time a Necro needs to dish out the same damage, which means the Necro is way more exposed to enemy attacks while the Thief is already running away stealthed.

Do I have to keep listing the flaws of your “math” or are those enough? I have a couple more points to make, but it is late here.

Travlane.5948:

@sorrow….stopped watching the video at 3 mins bc it only chose upscales…. typical thief vid. but yeah i get ur point that said and put aside tho. yes a thief can stay on the outskirts…like ive been saying on several threads and pick off the weak sheep. idk just not a viable build for group play to me. 90% of the zerg was ignoring him as he was 3 hitting upscales …..happens to me too. soon as they turn their attention you have to high tail it out. thats why i like my other build (in my opinion) bc you dont have to.

@sorrow
Please pay no mind to this guy. I dare anybody to compare play between Yishis and Traviane. Judge for yourself.

Traviane http://youtu.be/kk_jPDk6ihU

Yishis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7OYniHrGqE

This is a comment he made when I posted about the poor opposition play.

“and worst opposition? its tier 2……tarnished coast and fort aspenwood ……………..no upscales ….as i said in past posts i dont pick on upscales….might be a few but i dont target them first.”

Yet, Yishis plays on T1 making his opposition that much better (according to the comment above)

Personally I dont believe tiers have better or worse players just bigger groups.

Dont hate me…..Im just a messenger.

I’d love to see my SB hit for 6K damage the way you describe, but it can not. More like 3-5K damage that takes a good length of time to hit and is easily dodged or stepped away from.

And our Auto Attack? Don’t even try it. Just stop digging that hole.

@sorrow

Necro Aoe damage skills:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grim_Specter
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Life_Transfer
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dark_Water
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Necrotic_Grasp
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feast
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frozen_Abyss
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deadly_Catch
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unholy_Feast
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Putrid_Explosion
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrosive_Poison_Cloud
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Locust
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plague
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Suffering
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Darkness
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilling_Wind
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wave_of_Fear
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Mark
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mark_of_Blood
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilblains
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deathly_Swarm
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Corruption
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral_Grasp
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crimson_Tide
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wicked_Spiral
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deadly_Feast
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Scythe
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Locust_Swarm
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wail_of_Doom
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Touch
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Enfeebling_Blood

so necros have little access to aoe dmg?

and im comparing dmg ignoring stuff like CC even tho that would help argument. necros are MUCH better in larger group play. bring facts when u come. not JUST opinions.

@shadow stop trolling kiddo. really. i told u that was my first 2 videos and it didnt save right or something. it was from 1 hour of coverage. yish’s video is prolly 2 weeks + of footage playing everyday. i dont even know how to cut stuff out yet. i can only splice more than 1 scene together. im still learning. anyone can do 1 v 2s and survive. pfft its a joke. i finish with pretty much full health doing so too.

heres 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRKxsOFCFzY ill make sure in 2 weeks ill make a 1 hour video of these so i can pretend to look pro like other video goers :P pfft stop trolling kid

ps the oppositition comment of mine was about upscales in videos as i never will put them in mine. and the t2 comment was about something along the lines of “maybe its different in your server…but im my server t2 theres not as many on especially at night and even if there is i never target them” its kinda embarassing to post a video picking on upscales….or sarcastic at least

This addition is incredibly amusing. Revamping Thief too hard? Add gimmick item that only realistically works against the annoying abilities of 1 class and a few abilities of a second class.

BALANCED AND USEFUL ITEM

huh? what do you mean by that? revamping what?

They don’t know what to do with stealth and so they add lame gimmick item that may or may not exclusively counter stealth.

Travlane.5948:

@sorrow

Necro Aoe damage skills:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grim_Specter
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Life_Transfer
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dark_Water
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Necrotic_Grasp
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feast
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frozen_Abyss
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deadly_Catch
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unholy_Feast
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Putrid_Explosion
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrosive_Poison_Cloud
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Locust
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plague
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Suffering
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Darkness
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilling_Wind
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wave_of_Fear
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Mark
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mark_of_Blood
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilblains
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deathly_Swarm
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Corruption
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral_Grasp
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crimson_Tide
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wicked_Spiral
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deadly_Feast
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Scythe
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Locust_Swarm
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wail_of_Doom
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Touch
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Enfeebling_Blood

so necros have little access to aoe dmg?

and im comparing dmg ignoring stuff like CC even tho that would help argument. necros are MUCH better in larger group play. bring facts when u come. not JUST opinions.

Listing all of AoE necros have won’t prove your point. I hope you bothered to read the skill effects before you listed them all. I’ve said that Necros have no reliable access to direct damaging AoE skill, that’s all. Never said they have poor access.

sorrow.2364:

Listing all of AoE necros have won’t prove your point. I hope you bothered to read the skill effects before you listed them all. I’ve said that Necros have no reliable access to direct damaging AoE skill, that’s all. Never said they have poor access.

Marks aren’t very good aoe but b/c there are so many of them (and the condition remover one does nice burst), it amounts to a lot. Don’t forget about wells though. The boon remover and vulnerability applier does massive aoe damage. You can’t complain about them. I have a zerker necro (is fun to play) but I’m 100% certain that condition necro is stronger in any case except vs massive bosses when you’re fighting for condition stacks. I would say don’t bother with condition necro cause engi has you beat… except for 1 thing. Epidemic is just so amazing that it brings necro up several tiers and should always be partnered up with a condition engi. It’s kind of rediculous how many numbers could be pouring out with those 2 in a team.

travlane, take a look at how many of those AOEs can actually fit into a single necromancer build. They can only have 2 weapon sets, 1 heal, 3 utilities, and an elite.

Additionally, your list ignores how difficult it can be to make use of many of those AOEs like wells and putrid explosion.

Stop talking about things you don’t or barely understand.

Sebrent.3625:

I like fighting a good thief with my Mesmer. It’s a friggin rapid-paced dog-fight. A bad thief merely misses his rotation that someone taught him…

what rotation?

people should stop talking about things they have no clue of.

Common one?
[Cloak & Dagger] -> [Steal (Mug)] -> [Backstab] -> [Heartseeker Spam]

You can easily see this all day every day.

Another common one?
[Heartseeker Spam] -> [Stealth] -> [Repeat]

Some more?
[Unload] -> [Repeat]

And this is a personal favorite when I’m running Mirror as my heal on my Mesmer
[Stealth] -> [Sneak Attack] -> Repeat

Do please note that that post was talking about bad thieves. They merely learn some combination of buttons (a rotation) and try it. They don’t adapt. This is why they die.

sorrow.2364:

Travlane.5948:

@sorrow

Necro Aoe damage skills:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grim_Specter
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Life_Transfer
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dark_Water
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Necrotic_Grasp
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feast
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frozen_Abyss
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deadly_Catch
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unholy_Feast
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Putrid_Explosion
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrosive_Poison_Cloud
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Locust
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plague
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Suffering
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Darkness
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilling_Wind
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wave_of_Fear
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Mark
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mark_of_Blood
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilblains
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deathly_Swarm
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Corruption
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral_Grasp
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crimson_Tide
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wicked_Spiral
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deadly_Feast
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Scythe
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Locust_Swarm
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wail_of_Doom
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Touch
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Enfeebling_Blood

so necros have little access to aoe dmg?

and im comparing dmg ignoring stuff like CC even tho that would help argument. necros are MUCH better in larger group play. bring facts when u come. not JUST opinions.

Listing all of AoE necros have won’t prove your point. I hope you bothered to read the skill effects before you listed them all. I’ve said that Necros have no reliable access to direct damaging AoE skill, that’s all. Never said they have poor access.

my point is they do have reliable. only a few of those are “marks/ground targeting” so even if it only says 275 dmg and a thieves is 450 per auto… i mean that 5 v 5 scenario is still a blow out :P each necro is doing 1375dmg total each per second and each thief is doing 450 :P ….. aoe dmg is always better/goign to out dmg single target dmg in an even match UNLESS that aoe dmg is LESS than 1/5th of the single target dmg.

Sebrent.3625:

Common one?
[Cloak & Dagger] -> [Steal (Mug)] -> [Backstab] -> [Heartseeker Spam]

You can easily see this all day every day.

Another common one?
[Heartseeker Spam] -> [Stealth] -> [Repeat]

Some more?
[Unload] -> [Repeat]

And this is a personal favorite when I’m running Mirror as my heal on my Mesmer
[Stealth] -> [Sneak Attack] -> Repeat

Do please note that that post was talking about bad thieves. They merely learn some combination of buttons (a rotation) and try it. They don’t adapt. This is why they die.

glad to see somebody giving auto points in an argument. well played. however, you say this is why they die (predictability) ….could u perhaps add in a few alternatives that work (proven) just as well? if not the argument would be null :P i mean if there is no choice u cant really call em bad thieves right? if they are forced to play a certain way.

Sebrent.3625:

travlane, take a look at how many of those AOEs can actually fit into a single necromancer build. They can only have 2 weapon sets, 1 heal, 3 utilities, and an elite.

Additionally, your list ignores how difficult it can be to make use of many of those AOEs like wells and putrid explosion.

Stop talking about things you don’t or barely understand.

i dont understand that necros can add in X aoe dmg skills and thieves can add in Y single target dmg skills and when y=x ….the quantity of dmg that x produces will ALWAYS be greater…… :P

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

travlane, take a look at how many of those AOEs can actually fit into a single necromancer build. They can only have 2 weapon sets, 1 heal, 3 utilities, and an elite.

Additionally, your list ignores how difficult it can be to make use of many of those AOEs like wells and putrid explosion.

Stop talking about things you don’t or barely understand.

i dont understand that necros can add in X aoe dmg skills and thieves can add in Y single target dmg skills and when y=x ….the quantity of dmg that x produces will ALWAYS be greater…… :P

You are assuming that all AoEs hit 5 targets. While single target damage is quite reliable, AoE is extremely situational. Comparing raw numbers make no sense.

so you wanna say that it averages 3 people? or lets up the scenario to a 40 v 40 thieves vs necros. i did 5 v 5 so you could easily comprehend the numbers and %’s . (not a dig its just easier for anyone). 5 v 5 was just low numbers and its easily divided/compared/ratio. realistically its minimum 25 v 25 when a fight happens. more often its 35-50 vs 35-50 on average ….and up to 100+. so yeah i think that more often than not AOES hit more than 3 targets. hence the conversation being about dmg in group fights. even if its only 8 v 8. lets say that it only hits 2 people. if the aoe dmg is half of what the thief single target dmg is they are even. wont even try to go into the fact that necro ice debilitates melee players or what timed fear chains do. or the fact that a necro has access to about idk 6x more hp than a thief. just talkign dmg here.

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

Common one?
[Cloak & Dagger] -> [Steal (Mug)] -> [Backstab] -> [Heartseeker Spam]

You can easily see this all day every day.

Another common one?
[Heartseeker Spam] -> [Stealth] -> [Repeat]

Some more?
[Unload] -> [Repeat]

And this is a personal favorite when I’m running Mirror as my heal on my Mesmer
[Stealth] -> [Sneak Attack] -> Repeat

Do please note that that post was talking about bad thieves. They merely learn some combination of buttons (a rotation) and try it. They don’t adapt. This is why they die.

glad to see somebody giving auto points in an argument. well played. however, you say this is why they die (predictability) ….could u perhaps add in a few alternatives that work (proven) just as well? if not the argument would be null :P i mean if there is no choice u cant really call em bad thieves right? if they are forced to play a certain way.

(1) What works well is actually adapting and reacting to the fight. Sequences like these only work at average levels of play at best.

(2) That’s the thing … they are not forced to play a certain way. They could do adapt/react to the fight … you shouldn’t be able to stare at the keys you need to press in a particular order and win a fight. You should actually have to see and care what your foe is doing.

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

travlane, take a look at how many of those AOEs can actually fit into a single necromancer build. They can only have 2 weapon sets, 1 heal, 3 utilities, and an elite.

Additionally, your list ignores how difficult it can be to make use of many of those AOEs like wells and putrid explosion.

Stop talking about things you don’t or barely understand.

i dont understand that necros can add in X aoe dmg skills and thieves can add in Y single target dmg skills and when y=x ….the quantity of dmg that x produces will ALWAYS be greater…… :P

• Thief Shortbow auto-attack hits 3 targets and they don’t have to be as clumped together as an AOE requires … it can also hit A → B → A if there are only two targets thereby netting a 100% dmg increase on A.
• Thief Shortbow clusterbomb is 3 initiative, 4 if you detonate … can shoot that 3-4 times (ignoring traits and initiative regen) before you’re out of initiative
• Thief Shortbow Choking Gas is 4 initiative … can shoot that 3 times (ignoring traits and initiative regen) before you’re out of initiative
• Thief OH Dagger Dancing Blade hits 4 targets and they don’t have to be as clumped together as an AOE requires
• Caltrops provide an AOE with a 10 second duration

Now look at the low (and zero) initiative cost of these skills and compare them to the Necromancer’s cooldowns on their staff and that base initiative regen is 1 per 1.33 sec:

• 6 / 1.33 = 4.5 initiative
• 20 / 1.33 = 15 initiative
• 25 / 1.33 = 18.8 initiative
• 40 / 1.33 = 30.1 initiative

So, seeing as how your most expensive AOE is 4 initiative and their quickest AOE cooldown is equivalent to the regen of 4.5 initiative … what exactly are you complaining about?

The rest of those staff AOEs have cooldowns equivalent to 15 to 30 initiative regeneration.

This is just another example of Thieves complaining about stuff that is only in their heads due to limited knowledge and/or skill.

Travlane.5948:

so you wanna say that it averages 3 people? or lets up the scenario to a 40 v 40 thieves vs necros. i did 5 v 5 so you could easily comprehend the numbers and %’s . (not a dig its just easier for anyone). 5 v 5 was just low numbers and its easily divided/compared/ratio. realistically its minimum 25 v 25 when a fight happens. more often its 35-50 vs 35-50 on average ….and up to 100+. so yeah i think that more often than not AOES hit more than 3 targets. hence the conversation being about dmg in group fights. even if its only 8 v 8. lets say that it only hits 2 people. if the aoe dmg is half of what the thief single target dmg is they are even. wont even try to go into the fact that necro ice debilitates melee players or what timed fear chains do. or the fact that a necro has access to about idk 6x more hp than a thief. just talkign dmg here.

You are throwing this discussion to a mere class comparison which should not exists in first place. You are also assuming that Necro = AoE and Thief = single target, which isn’t true.

You made to many compromises to build up your reasoning that it is no longer valid times ago. There is no reason to keep arguing in this way.

What I tried to say into first place is that Thieves aren’t weak, neither squishy or whatever you’d like to say about them, expecially in WvWvW, where high mobility is what keeps you alive.

So, yes. Anti-Stealth traps are a fair game change that won’t hurt the Thief overall but it actually gives some tools to players against Stealth, something they should have done at the game release.

Thats a vastly one sided view. Does a necro’s second weapon set go on cooldown when he uses his skills on the first one? for a thief it does. Can a necro have 8 cooldowns all ticking down while a thief only has one init bar slowly regening? Its been shown many times all classes can use more skills than a thief does, that is the price of being able to use a skill more than once.

Shemsu.8721:

Thats a vastly one sided view. Does a necro’s second weapon set go on cooldown when he uses his skills on the first one? for a thief it does. Can a necro have 8 cooldowns all ticking down while a thief only has one init bar slowly regening? Its been shown many times all classes can use more skills than a thief does, that is the price of being able to use a skill more than once.

tl;dr
Necro

• Total = 234.4 “initiative” over 16 skills
• Average = 14.65 “initiative”
• Minimum = 4.5 “initiative”
• Maximum = 30.1 “initiative”

Thief

• Total = 76 initiative over 17 skills
• Average = 4.47 initiative
• Minimum = 3 initiative
• Maximum = 6 initiative

Heck, 4.47 is 30.5% of 14.65.

A lot of non-thief weapons are just like the Necro Staff. Let’s look at the numbers on it’s 2 through 5 again compared to base initiative regeneration:

Necro 2H Staff:

• 6 / 1.33 = 4.5 initiative
• 20 / 1.33 = 15 initiative
• 25 / 1.33 = 18.8 initiative
• 40 / 1.33 = 30.1 initiative

But let’s not stop there … let’s look at all the necro’s weapon cooldowns …

Necro MH Axe:

• 8 / 1.33 = 6 initiative
• 15 / 1.33 = 11.2 initiative

Necro MH Dagger:

• 12 / 1.33 = 9 initiative
• 25 / 1.33 = 18.8 initiative

Necro MH Scepter

• 10 / 1.33 = 7.5 initiative
• 10 / 1.33 = 7.5 initiative

Necro OH Dagger

• 18 / 1.33 = 13.5 initiative
• 25 / 1.33 = 18.8 initiative

Necro OH Focus

• 18 / 1.33 = 13.5 initiative
• 20 / 1.33 = 15 initiative

Necro OH Warhorn

• 30 / 1.33 = 22.6 initiative
• 30 / 1.33 = 22.6 initiative

Now let’s look at Thief weapons

Thief 2H Shortbow

• Clusterbomb w/ detonate = 4 initiative
• Disabling Shot = 4 initiative
• Choking Gas = 4 initiative
• Infiltrator’s Arrow = 6 initiative

Thief MH Dagger

• Heartseeker = 3 initiative

Thief MH Pistol

• Body Shot = 3 initiative

Thief MH Sword

• Infiltrator’s Strike + Shadow Return = 5 initiative

Thief MH Dagger + OH Dagger

• Death Blossom = 5 initiative

Thief MH Dagger + OH Pistol

• Shadow Shot = 4 initiative

Thief MH Pistol + OH Dagger

• Shadow Strike = 4 initiative

Thief MH Pistol + OH Pistol

• Unload = 5 initiative

Thief MH Sword + OH Dagger

• Flanking Strike + Larcenous Strike = 4 initiative

Thief MH Sword + OH Pistol

• Pistol Whip = 5 initiative

Thief OH Dagger

• Dancing Dagger = 4 initiative
• Cloak and Dagger = 6 initiative

Thief OH Pistol

• Head Shot = 4 initiative
• Black Powder = 6 initiative

Now let’s total it up…

Necro

• Total = 234.4 “initiative” over 16 skills
• Average = 14.65 “initiative”
• Minimum = 4.5 “initiative”
• Maximum = 30.1 “initiative”

Thief

• Total = 76 initiative over 17 skills
• Average = 4.47 initiative
• Minimum = 3 initiative
• Maximum = 6 initiative

Heck, 4.47 is 30.5% of 14.65.

What was that you were saying?

Shemsu.8721:

Its been shown many times all classes can use more skills than a thief does, that is the price of being able to use a skill more than once.

It looks like that is another Thief fabrication.

Im not touching that one, someone else can reply to that mess of incorrect maths and assumptions

seems like its the same 3-4 people trolling thief forums as usual. the plethora of skills i poitned out were like 20% weapon skills. the rest were utilities or effects of F mechanics and elites etc

the only AOE dmg skill a thief has is CLUSTER BOMB the rest are all conditions. nice try tho i like the effort. if u wanna play like that i can add in another 20 necro skills that are aoe conditions. i didnt choose those i only chose the ones with direct dmg. but i bet you looked at them and noticed that? i dont half -a** things.

and again i ask you for examples how how a thief can not be predictable so i wouldnt bash your statement up front and give you a chance to elaborate. but you didnt. hence a thief kinda being forced to rinse and repeat the same combos til it works. only s/d has enough combinations with utilities to keep em guessing.

Anti stealth Traps?!?!? What?
Fix the ridiculous D/P Black Powder Thief and we’re ok…
We don’t need this traps!

Piola.3782:

Anti stealth Traps?!?!? What?
Fix the ridiculous D/P Black Powder Thief and we’re ok…
We don’t need this traps!

even i say that black powder needs to be shaved off a little: some ideas are as follows but not including everything….either just 1 or amixture there of.

1) Shorten BPS pulse to 2 seconds in total.
2) Make the projectile from BS not blind
3) make the BPS diameter 2x larger but only pulse 1 second
4) add 1 initiative

Travlane.5948:

seems like its the same 3-4 people trolling thief forums as usual. the plethora of skills i poitned out were like 20% weapon skills. the rest were utilities or effects of F mechanics and elites etc

the only AOE dmg skill a thief has is CLUSTER BOMB the rest are all conditions. nice try tho i like the effort. if u wanna play like that i can add in another 20 necro skills that are aoe conditions. i didnt choose those i only chose the ones with direct dmg. but i bet you looked at them and noticed that? i dont half -a** things.

and again i ask you for examples how how a thief can not be predictable so i wouldnt bash your statement up front and give you a chance to elaborate. but you didnt. hence a thief kinda being forced to rinse and repeat the same combos til it works. only s/d has enough combinations with utilities to keep em guessing.

When will you stop comparing the two professions?
Despite the fact that they are incorrect (Cluster Bomb is the only AoE damage skill? Are we playing the same profession?), they makes no sense at all.

The fact that Cluster Bomb costs initiative, makes it worth 3x or event more of the Necro AoEs simply because you can use it twice in a row while Necros have to burn two cooldowns to have the same effect. You have no idea on how happy every Necro would be if Mark of Blood had no cooldown but it costed initative. You have no idea also on how happy every Necro would be if Staff #1 bounced between targets and were as fast as Trick Shot is, also at reduced cooldown.

Your profession isn’t weak. Get over it.