Guild Wars 2

Karl McLain.5604:

A short update:

• Dash – The extra distance has been removed for now as well. Dash now breaks immobilize in addition to its other effects. For now, the animation is just going to run you in the direction you’re dodging.

Nice change ! Love it !
It was a pain to dodge inside a shadow refuge and manage to stay in it, as the “long” distance rush would get you too far away.
Also the removal of the immobilize is great against CI mesmers, Scepter Guards, and many others

It’s really nice to hear from you, Karl. Looking forward to trying the dodges again.

So what are the animations for lotus dodge being replaced with? Is it just a normal dodge now?

Furthermore, is there any way someone at anet could explain why rerolling a character gets 9000 times more love than ongoing development of existing characters in an expansion?

What happenned? The Dragonhunter, Tempest, and Daredevil certainly do not feel like something that is ready to release in a month. This is in extreme contrast to their counterparts.

Quickly:

Tempest: It’s a no brainer. The overload mechanic should have been a new 1-5 set of skills worth camping in the attunement for that put all the other attunements on cooldown. That’s what people wanted most in a new Ele. They wanted to be able to actually build a “fire mage” or “earth mage” etc.

Dragonhunter: Traps are not a range-themed mechanic. Ranged support mechanics are CC. DH should have been designed around ranged pin down and imprison style skills, and knockbacks.

Daredevil: The basic DNA of this spec is good! The theme and intent is actually workable unlike the other two. However until someone over at arenanet admits it is a band-aid on a functionally weak class that is being made doubly weak indirectly by being the only class which Literally has skills designed to hard counter it and that mistakes were made when balancing it, which is agreed upon by virtually your entire PvP and PvE player base of any skill or sense you’re simply going to have a rough time balancing it.

Can you please address what’s being done for the thief in light of even more revealed and stealth being handed off to other classes? Is anything being done at all? Are we expecting to see HoT release and still have an elite spec full of nothing but re-used animations and a core class that is made less desirable and powerful by default due to everything that makes it unique being stripped away piecemeal or invalidated by the updates to the design of its peers?

I get the impression that literally everyone on the design team just gets super-frustrated by thieves in live play because they’re all hard working people who don’t have time to learn how to fight thieves like real players do, reflexively nerf them, and then ignore thief feedback because they simply expect players to complain when they get nerfed.

Round one of thief nerfs was warranted. Rounds 2 through I-lost-count were just insanity. The constant attention to crap like venomshare (without actually fixing venoms) and attempting to minimize stealth builds is mind boggling. You designed thieves as a stealth-centric class in the first place so it confuses a lot of us as to why changes are constantly made to the game to virtually force thieves to abandon stealth which all thieves are expected as a function of skill design to have at least a little of

Daredevil is cool, but we’re rapidly approaching a situation where playing a stealthless daredevil will be the only way to actually play thief at all, and that’s just plain not build diversity.

If you’re not the guy in charge of general thief design, can you direct us to whoever is? Is anyone at all? is anyone actually even looking at these issues or is the offical word that you feel like core thief is in a good place?

I am just happy he is increasingly present.

I would be pretty sad if Dash lost its extra distance… I don’t know what the underlying issue is exactly but can’t you simply make dash apply a movement speed modifier (one that obviously affects distance traveled, unlike the regular boons do right now) and possibly an animation modifier like for superspeed or swiftness.

I mean essentially you are replacing the regular dodge (which might internally already be considered a skill) with a skill that has evade frames so can it not internally have all the same properties of a skill.

Edit: to put it differently why not just define a status effect (so boon interaction is not present) called “dash” that is applied for the duration of the dodge and go from there (make it hidden or visible in the UI that is not relevant).

I wonder if it’s possible to postpone the release of HoT.
Some studios don’t hesitate to do that to ensure the quality of their product at release, and honestly I don’t mind that. It’s a guarantee of quality that actually reassure players that devs are putting some real love to the game they’ll deliver. There’s no shame to that.

Since it’s quite clear now that Daredevil can’t be polished by the release date of the expac, is there a possibility to postpone the release ? (I don’t mean to take the rest of the playerbase hostage but specializations are a genuine part of the expac that we pay for. It’s as important as the maps and the story).

In regards to Channeled Vigor, I haven’t seen a single positive comment for that skill. I’ll heavily test it in BWE3 but if it’s still as underwhelming as it was in BWE2 will there be time to change it? Why is so much of this elite spec cemented into it’s current iteration against the view and opinions of the customers of the product? Making these adjustments we’re requesting will not make Daredevil replace Elementalist, Guardian or Warrior as the top 3 professions in sPvP even if they are using core traits only.

In regards to the “Shadowstep dodge” we only mean shadowstep in animation. The dodge will funtion exactly like a dodge only:

• This will all occur over the standard 3/4 second dodge length
• On first frame they will begin the standard dodge animation
• Immediately the particle effects for shadowstep will begin
• The character avatar will go invisible
• Near the end of the dodge the particle effects for shadowstep will begin again
• The character will reappear in the particle effects and finish the dodge animation

There’s no actual shadowstep happening so the bugs associated with shadowstepping wont occur. It’s just an animation change that lots of people think will be cool.

Most of what was said was just bug fixes.

There’s no question about it, the clunkiness of the dodges were a bug in BWE2. It’s obvious that you guys needed to get those fixed and, though we’re glad you guys fixed the bugs, you haven’t actually taken any of the feedback we’ve been giving you about how weak the profession is compared to the other elite specs.

The main concerns for the profession are:

1. Please make the dodge selectable outside of combat as if it was the revenant legend so that we can get an actual tier 3 trait line.

2. Add Escapists Absolution into Driven Fortitude and add it as a minor. The current state of the meta pretty much treats Thieves as witches and conditions can get applied to the Thieves low hp pool significantly more efficiently than we can remove conditions. Obv, we would need a new additional trait in tier 2.

3. Staff will likely not be taken as a primary weapon unless it’s tuned to fit the meta more accurately. As it stands it’s not as survivable as S/P, not as mobile kitten and doesn’t really have a place to shine outside of the testing bubble. It needs things like Vault’s distance increased and a darkness field on staff 4 to be able to compete against our other weapon sets for a position on our build. Applying weakness to a burning guard or a terragriff isn’t enough to make us able to survive the few hits we can’t avoid.

4. Adding 1 additional dodge without adjusting our baseline endurance regen to 7.5 over 5 a second is not nearly powerful enough to give us any more sustainability. If we’re to be in-the-thick-of-things we need more than 1 extra dodge. If a fight’s going to last 25 seconds and a S/P Thief is fighting a S/P Daredevil, the Daredevil will only have 1 extra dodge the entire time.

Look at what ALL other professions get from their elite spec minor:

• Tempest – New Weapon, New Skill Type, 4 new Overload abilities added to the already meta standard profession for all game content
• Berserker – New Weapon, new Skill Type Berserk Mode with many benefits and 7 new Primal bursts that can be toggled on and off for situational application of which burst style the Warrior wants
• Reaper – New Weapon, New Skill Type, New Reaper Form with 5 very competetive abilities
• Dragon Hunter – New Weapon, New Skill Type, 3 new Virtues
• Scrapper – New Weapon, New Skill Type, The ability to Rez/Stomp targets at range with a drone that can gain additional benefits from traits
• Chronomancer – New Weapon, New Skill Type, New F5 ability that allows Mesmers a massive array of abilities including using elites twice
• Herald – New Weapon, New Skill Type, New profession mechanic providing toggle-able mass party support

And then you have the Daredevil…

• Daredevil – New Weapon, New Skill Type, 1 additional dodge…

It’s so obvious that the dodges need to be rolled into the Daredevil elite spec minor as an out-of-combat selection box. All of the other elite specs have tier 3 traits that strengthen them further… we only have tier 3 traits that unlock the elite spec’s mechanics. I’ve attached a rough UI to show you how dodge selection should look.

Shalien.9018:

And then you have the Daredevil…

• Daredevil – New Weapon, New Skill Type, 1 additional dodge…

It’s so obvious that the dodges need to be rolled into the Daredevil elite spec minor as an out-of-combat selection box. All of the other elite specs have tier 3 traits that strengthen them further… we only have tier 3 traits that unlock the elite spec’s mechanics. I’ve attached a rough UI to show you how dodge selection should look.

^Absolutely this!

apocom.3172:

Removing the distance from dash makes it really subpar.
Even if you don’t reduce the distance Bounding Dodger will be meta, and removing immobilize is close to worthless, because as a thief this condition doesn’t bother you much.

On the contrary this skill bothers you a lot if you do not stealth with regularity. As to bounding dodger being meta , this again only with specific builds. I really do not see why people have to frame a point around only the build(s) they use.

P/P , P/D , SB and any condition build will have no reasons to uses bounding dodger. S/D i have not tested enough to make a judgement as to which of the iterations preferable.

Staff can work very well with the Dash.

D/P is current meta in weapon sets. If this means that dodger used most often in game it not due to the weakness of the other two dodges it to do with the weaponsets having their own inherent problems and it would be counterproductive to tailor dodges to d/p.

As to the length of the dash , yes I think it needs to get back to that longer distance as it will be useful with a number of other weaponsets. From what I read I do not think this was to be a permanent move.

I’ve got an alternate idea (not necessarly better though) about the dodge toggling system.

Having just an F3 to switch between offensive or defensive dodge.
Defensive dodge would be the dash dodge (the one that can’t be subject to interrupt, confusion and stuff).

The offensive dodge would be either bound, lotus training or another new offensive dodge (with knockback, blind, stun or something like that)

Does ANYONE here think they’re going to give not just one, but all three of the current GrandMaster effects as a freebie (which incidentally you CAN toggle outside of combat — what you can’t do and never will do is dance between 3 GMs mid-match…) and then write up/code/test 3 more Grandmaster scale benefits in the 30 days remaining before launch.

You are describing a fairy tale.

There’s still persuasive arguments and bargains to be made with the Devs in the eternal quest for buffs to a spec you want to play, but that? That ain’t one of them.

Nike.2631:

Does ANYONE here think they’re going to give not just one, but all three of the current GrandMaster effects as a freebie (which incidentally you CAN toggle outside of combat — what you can’t do and never will do is dance between 3 GMs mid-match…) and then write up/code/test 3 more Grandmaster scale benefits in the 30 days remaining before launch.

You are describing a fairy tale.

There’s still persuasive arguments and bargains to be made with the Devs in the eternal quest for buffs to a spec you want to play, but that? That ain’t one of them.

To be honest, the problem you’re mentioning isn’t supposed to be ours.
We’re talking about what should be done for the spec. The poor schedule isn’t supposed to be our own concern. We’re on the receiving end, we are the one who may (or may not) buy the expansion.
Specializations should’ve been worked on for months now. It’s not our fault, and it’s definitely not us who should bend over when they ended up with a rushed and flawed result.

We’re not part of the team, we’re the customers.

Tabootrinket.2631:

Nike.2631:

Does ANYONE here think they’re going to give not just one, but all three of the current GrandMaster effects as a freebie (which incidentally you CAN toggle outside of combat — what you can’t do and never will do is dance between 3 GMs mid-match…) and then write up/code/test 3 more Grandmaster scale benefits in the 30 days remaining before launch.

You are describing a fairy tale.

There’s still persuasive arguments and bargains to be made with the Devs in the eternal quest for buffs to a spec you want to play, but that? That ain’t one of them.

To be honest, the problem you’re mentioning isn’t supposed to be ours.
We’re talking about what should be done for the spec. The poor schedule isn’t supposed to be our own concern. We’re on the receiving end, we are the one who may (or may not) buy the expansion.
Specializations should’ve been worked on for months now. It’s not our fault, and it’s definitely not us who should bend over when they ended up with a rushed and flawed result.

We’re not part of the team, we’re the customers.

^^ This.

Plus, we already have all 3 of the tier 3 major Traits available to swap outside of combat. It’s just done via a clunky UI barrier instead of it being streamlined into the normal functionality of the elite profession. We just want access to the same 3 Tier 3 traits that every other elite spec has access to. I guarantee they have dozens of theory-crafted grandmaster traits they scrapped to make room for the dodges. They just have to add those.

With the size of the changes some of the other profession mechanics have changed (Mallyx Rev for example) it’s not impossible for them to add a handful of trait options (4 total with Escapist’s Absolution and the 3 Tier 3s) and add a single UI toggle in the next 30 days. We just need to make them know that it’s a high enough priority.

As it stands the Daredevil was rushed and poorly developed. It’s missing baseline features that should be included at launch of HoT not 3 months later when they get to it.

I know that devs are real people. I understand that Karl’s probably putting in rediculous hours and working his kitten off to give us the best possible thing he can. We’re here to help the devs develop a competitive elite spec. We just need to keep reiterating what is needed because there’s no better system in place to let them know what needs to be changed.

Nike.2631:

Does ANYONE here think they’re going to give not just one, but all three of the current GrandMaster effects as a freebie (which incidentally you CAN toggle outside of combat — what you can’t do and never will do is dance between 3 GMs mid-match…) and then write up/code/test 3 more Grandmaster scale benefits in the 30 days remaining before launch.

You are describing a fairy tale.

There’s still persuasive arguments and bargains to be made with the Devs in the eternal quest for buffs to a spec you want to play, but that? That ain’t one of them.

Forget about the launch date, it’s a forgone conclusion DD will not be polished by launch; same goes for many of the new Elite specializations.

We might as well assume that these changes are going to happen post-release and give feedback under that assumption.

In regards to the Dash animation, an instant shadowstep would be interesting to promote the theme; but I feel like it would run into many mechanical issues that Karl mentioned. Best way to approach this would be to make dash a “blur” and the animation fast much faster than any current dodges.

Also, I agree that the DD’s core mechanic should not require GM traits to be accessible.

Thank you for the update Karl!!

Let’s continue to keep the feedback positive! One should understand that HoT releases in exactly a month from today. This reflects the pressure that all the devs are working under to release classes that keep their customers happy. Any scrutinization over desired changes not being able to make it in before the release of the game is pointless. Keep up the constructive feedback and we will continue to see transparency with the game’s devs.

If the new dodge is the new mechanic for Daredevil it’s really not cool to lock it behind Grandmaster traits. If you look at the grandmaster traits for other specializations there is a huge difference between what they get and what thieves get.
If you look at the grandmaster traits for other classes they each are geared toward a different aspect of the changes done to the class.

For example if you look at tempest one trait is a warhorn related skill, one is related to overloading attunements and one is related to the various auras which is useful to warhorn but also useful to other weapons and skills. If you look at the reaper grandmaster traits one is useful to both reaper’s shroud and general gameplay, one is focused around chill and the final is entirely around reaper’s shroud.

I could go on but I think it’s easy to see that every other grandmaster trait for the new specializations clearly focus on not just one of the changes the new spec brings but on all of the many changes these specs bring to the class.

A better model for thief is letting them choose the dodge through some other method and then getting one trait that gives the dodge something good, and two new traits focused around OTHER mechanics daredevil offers thief as their grandmasters.

Beo.1058:

If the new dodge is the new mechanic for Daredevil it’s really not cool to lock it behind Grandmaster traits. If you look at the grandmaster traits for other specializations there is a huge difference between what they get and what thieves get.
If you look at the grandmaster traits for other classes they each are geared toward a different aspect of the changes done to the class.

For example if you look at tempest one trait is a warhorn related skill, one is related to overloading attunements and one is related to the various auras which is useful to warhorn but also useful to other weapons and skills. If you look at the reaper grandmaster traits one is useful to both reaper’s shroud and general gameplay, one is focused around chill and the final is entirely around reaper’s shroud.

I could go on but I think it’s easy to see that every other grandmaster trait for the new specializations clearly focus on not just one of the changes the new spec brings but on all of the many changes these specs bring to the class.

A better model for thief is letting them choose the dodge through some other method and then getting one trait that gives the dodge something good, and two new traits focused around OTHER mechanics daredevil offers thief as their grandmasters.

I agree with this chap and the tens of other people who have essentially said the same thing. The dodge doesn’t need to be and shouldn’t be tied to the GM trait. It doesn’t seem proportional to the other specialisations.

Tabootrinket.2631:

To be honest, the problem you’re mentioning isn’t supposed to be ours.

You’re right. The problem on this side of the fence is having any concept of the level of effectiveness we’re supposed to be receiving. I get it the thief community is feeling a bit downtrodden after ages of being THE most despised of all professions. But GOOD DESIGN gives you a set of options that put you at the middle of the pack, not leapfrogging to the top spot.

It should be good enough a skilled player can win some of the time against other skilled players. That’s it. Not amazing. Sure as hell not stance dancing what they felt were three GMs worth of awesome. Oh, with another GM on top like a cherry.

Disappointment is the distance between bad expectations and reality. The bad expectations running rampant with “Oh, sure, just give us a triple GM and then 3 more GMs to pick from” is raw absurdity.

Could the Daredevil be better. Yes. Should it be better? Maybe, the data is kinda limited. Is it going to get THAT MUCH BETTER? Hell no. What gains are there to be made will be made within the framework we have now.

Give them some feedback and ideas they can use, because “We want 4 GMs instead of one!” doesn’t even pass the laugh test.

I’ve taken the liberty to take my example UI a step further. Now it’s broken down into two images.

• In the first, you see what it looks like when you have a dodge selected
• In the second, you see what it looks like while selecting a dodge

This needs to be baseline for Daredevil so that we have the same access to Tier 3 Grandmaster Traits as all of the other elite specializations.

Nike.2631:

Tabootrinket.2631:

To be honest, the problem you’re mentioning isn’t supposed to be ours.

You’re right. The problem on this side of the fence is having any concept of the level of effectiveness we’re supposed to be receiving. I get it the thief community is feeling a bit downtrodden after ages of being THE most despised of all professions. But GOOD DESIGN gives you a set of options that put you at the middle of the pack, not leapfrogging to the top spot.

It should be good enough a skilled player can win some of the time against other skilled players. That’s it. Not amazing. Sure as hell not stance dancing what they felt were three GMs worth of awesome. Oh, with another GM on top like a cherry.

Disappointment is the distance between bad expectations and reality. The bad expectations running rampant with “Oh, sure, just give us a triple GM and then 3 more GMs to pick from” is raw absurdity.

Could the Daredevil be better. Yes. Should it be better? Maybe, the data is kinda limited. Is it going to get THAT MUCH BETTER? Hell no. What gains are there to be made will be made within the framework we have now.

Give them some feedback and ideas they can use, because “We want 4 GMs instead of one!” doesn’t even pass the laugh test.

I understand exactly what you’re saying, but dodges aren’t GM worthy to begin with. These aren’t GM traits, they’re a core defensive mechanic.

Just because they’re in the GM trait line, doesn’t mean they’re GM worthy. So no, we’re asking for our core defensive mechanic and to have GM traits like everyone else.

Shalien.9018:

I’ve taken the liberty to take my example UI a step further. Now it’s broken down into two images.

• In the first, you see what it looks like when you have a dodge selected
• In the second, you see what it looks like while selecting a dodge

This needs to be baseline for Daredevil so that we have the same access to Tier 3 Grandmaster Traits as all of the other elite specializations.

I agree over 100% this. The CORE of your specialization should be made baseline and we should be given new GM traits worth just like any other class, as of now, Thieves feel the most underwhelmed executed spec.

This NEEDS to HAPPEN along with the rework of idle, running, and combat STAFF animations.

Nike.2631:

Tabootrinket.2631:

To be honest, the problem you’re mentioning isn’t supposed to be ours.

You’re right. The problem on this side of the fence is having any concept of the level of effectiveness we’re supposed to be receiving. I get it the thief community is feeling a bit downtrodden after ages of being THE most despised of all professions. But GOOD DESIGN gives you a set of options that put you at the middle of the pack, not leapfrogging to the top spot.

It should be good enough a skilled player can win some of the time against other skilled players. That’s it. Not amazing. Sure as hell not stance dancing what they felt were three GMs worth of awesome. Oh, with another GM on top like a cherry.

Disappointment is the distance between bad expectations and reality. The bad expectations running rampant with “Oh, sure, just give us a triple GM and then 3 more GMs to pick from” is raw absurdity.

Could the Daredevil be better. Yes. Should it be better? Maybe, the data is kinda limited. Is it going to get THAT MUCH BETTER? Hell no. What gains are there to be made will be made within the framework we have now.

Give them some feedback and ideas they can use, because “We want 4 GMs instead of one!” doesn’t even pass the laugh test.

The point you’re making is up to debate, I agree.
But that’s not really what I was talking about right there.
I’m talking about the quality of the spec as a finished product, not as a powerhouse. What I mean by that is :
- working mechanism.
- polished animation and visual effects.

We are (for now) denied correct animations. Mechanisms are for now clunky and flawed. That’s what needs to be adressed.
Every other posts I made concerning the suggestion of a dodge toggle has nothing to do with that.

Bllade.1029:

Nike.2631:

Tabootrinket.2631:

To be honest, the problem you’re mentioning isn’t supposed to be ours.

You’re right. The problem on this side of the fence is having any concept of the level of effectiveness we’re supposed to be receiving. I get it the thief community is feeling a bit downtrodden after ages of being THE most despised of all professions. But GOOD DESIGN gives you a set of options that put you at the middle of the pack, not leapfrogging to the top spot.

It should be good enough a skilled player can win some of the time against other skilled players. That’s it. Not amazing. Sure as hell not stance dancing what they felt were three GMs worth of awesome. Oh, with another GM on top like a cherry.

Disappointment is the distance between bad expectations and reality. The bad expectations running rampant with “Oh, sure, just give us a triple GM and then 3 more GMs to pick from” is raw absurdity.

Could the Daredevil be better. Yes. Should it be better? Maybe, the data is kinda limited. Is it going to get THAT MUCH BETTER? Hell no. What gains are there to be made will be made within the framework we have now.

Give them some feedback and ideas they can use, because “We want 4 GMs instead of one!” doesn’t even pass the laugh test.

I understand exactly what you’re saying, but dodges aren’t GM worthy to begin with. These aren’t GM traits, they’re a core defensive mechanic.

Just because they’re in the GM trait line, doesn’t mean they’re GM worthy. So no, we’re asking for our core defensive mechanic and to have GM traits like everyone else.

Yeah, they’re the core mechanic of the elite spec. they’re not optional grandmaster quality traits that effect gameplay.

The ONLY way these could even be considered as grandmaster quality traits is if ANet admits that the entire core mechanic of Daredevil is ONLY 1 extra dodge. Without extra endurance regeneration. Legitimately adding 1 extra dodge per encounter no matter if it’s a 10 second fight or a 10 minute fight. We get only 1 more dodge by taking Daredevil.

Stratos.9375:

Shalien.9018:

I’ve taken the liberty to take my example UI a step further. Now it’s broken down into two images.

• In the first, you see what it looks like when you have a dodge selected
• In the second, you see what it looks like while selecting a dodge

This needs to be baseline for Daredevil so that we have the same access to Tier 3 Grandmaster Traits as all of the other elite specializations.

I agree over 100% this. The CORE of your specialization should be made baseline and we should be given new GM traits worth just like any other class, as of now, Thieves feel the most underwhelmed executed spec.

This NEEDS to HAPPEN along with the rework of idle, running, and combat STAFF animations.

I am liking these suggestions so far, but lets keep the ball rolling. What sort of new GM traits would help bolster us yet still fall under the thematic role of Daredevil? The diversity of the three dodge rolls are well thought out, yet being tied down to our GM traits does seem to hinder our optimal build potential. I don’t think that it is too far of a stretch to have the Daredevil utilize new dodges as well as it’s 3rd dodge for its official “class mechanic”.

Shalien.9018:

Bllade.1029:

Nike.2631:

Tabootrinket.2631:

To be honest, the problem you’re mentioning isn’t supposed to be ours.

You’re right. The problem on this side of the fence is having any concept of the level of effectiveness we’re supposed to be receiving. I get it the thief community is feeling a bit downtrodden after ages of being THE most despised of all professions. But GOOD DESIGN gives you a set of options that put you at the middle of the pack, not leapfrogging to the top spot.

It should be good enough a skilled player can win some of the time against other skilled players. That’s it. Not amazing. Sure as hell not stance dancing what they felt were three GMs worth of awesome. Oh, with another GM on top like a cherry.

Disappointment is the distance between bad expectations and reality. The bad expectations running rampant with “Oh, sure, just give us a triple GM and then 3 more GMs to pick from” is raw absurdity.

Could the Daredevil be better. Yes. Should it be better? Maybe, the data is kinda limited. Is it going to get THAT MUCH BETTER? Hell no. What gains are there to be made will be made within the framework we have now.

Give them some feedback and ideas they can use, because “We want 4 GMs instead of one!” doesn’t even pass the laugh test.

I understand exactly what you’re saying, but dodges aren’t GM worthy to begin with. These aren’t GM traits, they’re a core defensive mechanic.

Just because they’re in the GM trait line, doesn’t mean they’re GM worthy. So no, we’re asking for our core defensive mechanic and to have GM traits like everyone else.

Yeah, they’re the core mechanic of the elite spec. they’re not optional grandmaster quality traits that effect gameplay.

The ONLY way these could even be considered as grandmaster quality traits is if ANet admits that the entire core mechanic of Daredevil is ONLY 1 extra dodge. Without extra endurance regeneration. Legitimately adding 1 extra dodge per encounter no matter if it’s a 10 second fight or a 10 minute fight. We get only 1 more dodge by taking Daredevil.

Our endurance ability should regenerate proportionally to the size of the endurance bar otherwise the extra bar is insignificant.
Old acrobatic trait from core thief gave more dodges than the current iteration if it remains like that.

Bllade.1029:

I understand exactly what you’re saying, but dodges aren’t GM worthy to begin with. These aren’t GM traits, they’re a core defensive mechanic.

Just because they’re in the GM trait line, doesn’t mean they’re GM worthy. So no, we’re asking for our core defensive mechanic and to have GM traits like everyone else.

You can say it, but clearly the people who decide these things don’t agree. We’re seeing some adjustments to what the GM-dodges do, but its perfectly evident they felt those effects were in the GW range of benefit, and were being further leveraged by the Espec’s ability to bank up to three charges.

Shalien.9018:

The ONLY way these could even be considered as grandmaster quality traits is if ANet admits that the entire core mechanic of Daredevil is ONLY 1 extra dodge. Without extra endurance regeneration. Legitimately adding 1 extra dodge per encounter no matter if it’s a 10 second fight or a 10 minute fight. We get only 1 more dodge by taking Daredevil.

Bullcrap. If at any point you managed to get back up to 2 dodges banked the Daredevil continues to accumulate charge and all other professions are sucking wind. Amazing burst dodge on the amazing burst class. Who would’ve thunk it? If you actually believe what you just said, then that pretty much explains why you think everything contingent on that advantage is under-powered.

Nike.2631:

Bullcrap. If at any point you managed to get back up to 2 dodges banked the Daredevil continues to accumulate charge and all other professions are sucking wind.

I’m sorry but I have no idea what you’re trying to say here.

Do you think the Daredevil’s profession mechanic should only be 1 extra dodge per encounter while everyone else gets a whole bunch of new abilities?

Tabootrinket.2631:

The point you’re making is up to debate, I agree.
But that’s not really what I was talking about right there.
I’m talking about the quality of the spec as a finished product, not as a powerhouse. What I mean by that is :
- working mechanism.
- polished animation and visual effects.

We are (for now) denied correct animations. Mechanisms are for now clunky and flawed. That’s what needs to be adressed.

And on that front I sincerely hope we see improvement. What redname commentary we’re receiving seems to point to them trying to address those issues.

Shalien.9018:

Nike.2631:

Bullcrap. If at any point you managed to get back up to 2 dodges banked the Daredevil continues to accumulate charge and all other professions are sucking wind.

I’m sorry but I have no idea what you’re trying to say here.

Do you think the Daredevil’s profession mechanic should only be 1 extra dodge per encounter while everyone else gets a whole bunch of new abilities?

It’s only “one per encounter” if you’re burning them as fast as you get them. If you get any lull in the action it can be significantly more dodges per encounter than any other profession gets because the Daredevil has a ‘wider net’ to catch time in. They don’t just have better burst dodge than any other profession, they also have better endurance capacity than any other profession because after getting to two dodges stored they keep gaining endurance in a way no other profession does. That means they can absorb the benefits of vigor 50% longer than any other class.

Here, assume two characters with exactly 2 dodges ready (100 endurance). That happens a lot. Even mid-encounter. Cast vigor on them both. One gets nothing. One gets benefit. Guess which one is the Daredevil?

Nike.2631:

Shalien.9018:

Nike.2631:

Bullcrap. If at any point you managed to get back up to 2 dodges banked the Daredevil continues to accumulate charge and all other professions are sucking wind.

I’m sorry but I have no idea what you’re trying to say here.

Do you think the Daredevil’s profession mechanic should only be 1 extra dodge per encounter while everyone else gets a whole bunch of new abilities?

It’s only “one per encounter” if you’re burning them as fast as you get them. If you get any lull in the action it can be significantly more dodges per encounter than any other profession gets because the Daredevil has a ‘wider net’ to catch time in. They don’t just have better burst dodge than any other profession, they also have better endurance capacity than any other profession because after getting to two dodges stored they keep gaining endurance in a way no other profession does. That means they can absorb the benefits of vigor 50% longer than any other class.

Here, assume two characters with exactly 2 dodges ready (100 endurance). That happens a lot. Even mid-encounter. Cast vigor on them both. One gets nothing. One gets benefit. Guess which one is the Daredevil?

So assuming the Daredevil’s not using their profession mechanic, they have access to use it more often? I’m sorry man but if a Thief has full endurance mid encounter they’re not doing something right. They have 2 traits in the Daredevil line based on not having full endurance and the new heal is based on not having full endurance.

Even assuming your version of combat where a Thief decides not to dodging so that we can “burst dodge” later, an extra handful of dodges isn’t on par with a new reaper shroud, berserk mode or continuum split. It’s a weaker version of Feline Grace that we had for 2.5 years of the games life that was nerfed a few months ago to make room for Daredevil.

It’s obvious that the dodge themselves are the actual elite spec mechanic. We love the dodges, we just know that they’re misplaced when you look at the other elite specs.

Please don’t make our elite spec gimmick a worse version of a minor trait we had for over two and a half years (3 dodges/100 endurance is better than 3 dodges/150 endurance), please don’t cheat us out of real grand master traits by making what should be our elite spec default change into grand master traits, and please please give us a reason to use staff. I just can’t see Daredevil as anything other than a kitten job as it currently is.

Shalien.9018:

I’m sorry man but if a Thief has full endurance mid encounter they’re not doing something right. They have 2 traits in the Daredevil line based on not having full endurance and the new heal is based on not having full endurance.

Read. What. You. Just. Wrote.

There are other professions in game that have bonuses when they have less than max endurance. Daredevil is the only profession in the game that can still be sitting on 2 dodges for emergencies (the maximum safety margin for most folks) and still proc those traits.

The Daredevil’s benefit of 3 endurance bars is MONSTEROUSLY powerful. It’s a third pulse of on-demand godmode combined with a deeper cistern to trap time/vigor. Don’t let the simplicity fool you: it shames most of the other Espec mechanics for raw power and people here are treating it like a footnote. Its not “one more dodge per encounter” it’s “when any other profession would be out of endurance and stuck in a one-shot death zone you are sitting pretty — repeat as many times as you manage your endurance/vigor well.”

Nike.2631:

Shalien.9018:

I’m sorry man but if a Thief has full endurance mid encounter they’re not doing something right. They have 2 traits in the Daredevil line based on not having full endurance and the new heal is based on not having full endurance.

Read. What. You. Just. Wrote.

There are other professions in game that have bonuses when they have less than max endurance. Daredevil is the only profession in the game that can still be sitting on 2 dodges for emergencies (the maximum safety margin for most folks) and still proc those traits.

The Daredevil’s benefit of 3 endurance bars is MONSTEROUSLY powerful. It’s a third pulse of on-demand godmode combined with a deeper cistern to trap time/vigor. Don’t let the simplicity fool you: it shames most of the other Espec mechanics for raw power and people here are treating it like a footnote. Its not “one more dodge per encounter” it’s “when any other profession would be out of endurance and stuck in a one-shot death zone you are sitting pretty — repeat as many times as you manage your endurance/vigor well.”

We are treating it as a footnote because it was something we ALWAYS HAD until they decided to destroy the acrobatics trait line just so they could make that our elite spec. They don’t get to give us something we already had and treat it like its the most awesome thing ever, sorry.

Because it’s impossible that it was pulled because it’s so dang powerful…

Nike.2631:

Because it’s impossible that it was pulled because it’s so dang powerful…

Oh i’m sure that minor trait we had for two and a half years made the thief class completely op. Stop trying to act like giving us back a worse version of something they took away is something we should be happy about. Acrobatics is still completely worthless with no fix in sight.

Tremain.4623:

Nike.2631:

Because it’s impossible that it was pulled because it’s so dang powerful…

Oh i’m sure that minor trait we had for two and a half years made the thief class completely op. Stop trying to act like giving us back a worse version of something they took away is something we should be happy about. Acrobatics is still completely worthless with no fix in sight.

Ah… So we’re not having a ‘discuss the game as it is now and an effect that is objectively very powerful’ moment and instead we’re having one of those ’let’s reminisce about an environment that doesn’t exist any more and an effect that was grossly underweighted at the time’ moments?

Sure. We can have that talk. I miss Ricochet. But you’re delusional if you think that’s a lever that’s going to move the Devs to action in the here-and-now.

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

What is wrong with fixing broken skills? Making the class feel fluid and fun to play is going to be more important than it’s performance in a game mode. Once everything is working properly, then they can focus on looking at our changes, but for now I think they have the right priorities. Besides, there is nothing “simple” about fixing animations and functionality. That stuff is so much more than just a number that needs tweaking.

I think you missed the point I was making. Never did I say they shouldn’t fix broken skills, in fact, there’s numerous broken skills that haven’t been fixed for over 3 whole years.

Shalien.9018:

I’ve taken the liberty to take my example UI a step further. Now it’s broken down into two images.

• In the first, you see what it looks like when you have a dodge selected
• In the second, you see what it looks like while selecting a dodge

This needs to be baseline for Daredevil so that we have the same access to Tier 3 Grandmaster Traits as all of the other elite specializations.

That’s EXACTLY how it SHOULD be. Only swap-able out of combat, but not a GM trait nonsense. I talked about this back on page 3 as well.

Nike.2631:

Read. What. You. Just. Wrote.

There are other professions in game that have bonuses when they have less than max endurance. Daredevil is the only profession in the game that can still be sitting on 2 dodges for emergencies (the maximum safety margin for most folks) and still proc those traits.

The Daredevil’s benefit of 3 endurance bars is MONSTEROUSLY powerful. It’s a third pulse of on-demand godmode combined with a deeper cistern to trap time/vigor. Don’t let the simplicity fool you: it shames most of the other Espec mechanics for raw power and people here are treating it like a footnote. Its not “one more dodge per encounter” it’s “when any other profession would be out of endurance and stuck in a one-shot death zone you are sitting pretty — repeat as many times as you manage your endurance/vigor well.”

Why’re you trying to troll the thief forum so bad and have the e-spec turn out to be so garbage that no one ends up playing it, besides the typical D/P nonsense, compared to what the other classes get, when thief is already struggling as is, besides the all mighty SB2&5? Thief should just be renamed SB.

Feline Grace by itself was BETTER than the +1 endurance.

Silverbolt.2301:

Feline Grace by itself was BETTER than the +1 endurance.

Yes, it was. And it was removed from the game.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not trolling. I want to see the Daredevil get better, because it’s going to revitalize the Super Unicorn I already love to play.

But there are requests that are flatly impossible and a waste of everyone’s time, and requests that are plausible and might convince the Devs to act on them. Triple-GW-dodge-stance-dancing falls very plainly on one side of that line. And its sucking up the very limited supply of time we have left when you have to know in your heart of hearts its NOT GONNA HAPPEN. Not even if its a brilliant idea that is despite my assessment exactly at the right power level… Because it still calls for the spontaneous creation and approval of 3 more GM traits to fill the bleeding crater it gouges in the array we have now.

There are far more skilled thief players than me here — I’d love to see their efforts focus on more modest changes that can help make the Daredevil more competitive and might actually come to pass.

Yes and no one ever complained that Thief had Feline Grace. People only ever complained about stealth. Feline Grace was well accepted by the entire GW2 community.

It was nerfed so that it could be given back watered down as an e-spec.

Shalien.9018:

Yes and no one ever complained that Thief had Feline Grace. People only ever complained about stealth. Feline Grace was well accepted by the entire GW2 community.

It was nerfed so that it could be given back watered down as an e-spec.

Right. You are wanting that nostalgic living in the past chat. Good luck with driving any real change from that platform.

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!

Thanks for the update Karl. When all this is done we’ll buy you a beer.

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

Karl man, I just want to say thank you for communicating with us throughout the day – this really means more than anything to me and makes me feel that regardless of the fact that I disagree with certain functionalities of the specialization, that it will get on track and head in the right direction.

I think I speak for a lot of the community when I say that consistent communication really is one of our largest desires.

Please, please keep this up – both throughout the next month and after launch. I feel as though because of the technical complexity of some of the specialization mechanics, as well as some of the changes that will need to be made at some point even after launch (e.g. animations) your communication is so important to us. So don’t fade into the background, give us regular updates and don’t give up on the profession.

From myself and everyone else, it means a lot and I know it’s hard work, but we’ll get there eventually! There’s a long road ahead of us, and I don’t think many of us are truly expecting everything to “be there” come launch, but as long as the communication is there, as long as our voices are heard, it gives us faith that we’ll get there eventually.

Thank you Karl, it means a lot – and like someone else offered, if you ever want a beer, give me a Paypal address and I’ll buy you a drink on me.

Nike.2631:

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not trolling. I want to see the Daredevil get better, because it’s going to revitalize the Super Unicorn I already love to play.

You’re not providing feedback for Daredevil. You’re only telling people that their feedback is wrong. If you want positive change, make the suggestions instead of passive aggressively telling people how stupid they are.

Shalien.9018:

I’ve taken the liberty to take my example UI a step further. Now it’s broken down into two images.

• In the first, you see what it looks like when you have a dodge selected
• In the second, you see what it looks like while selecting a dodge

This needs to be baseline for Daredevil so that we have the same access to Tier 3 Grandmaster Traits as all of the other elite specializations.

This is amazing. Karl please implement this

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

I love you.

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

Thank you for the update, and I’m glad the extra distance is back…and better. Can you comment on if anything’s being worked on for staff skills specifically? Or the possibility of migrating the GM dodge traits out to a mechanic of its own?

With these updates I think dash is gm worthy. I say remove the damage from lotus (there’s enough reveal on other professions now to catch a condi ghost easily), and give bound a little extra something and I fully accept them as gm traits.

You could still add an interface for selecting them out if combat for convenience. No reason not to, even if they stay gm traits.

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

Great change. Really nicely done. Glad to see some valuable improvements. Great, the shadow refuge might take some practice, but 95% of dodges are likely not during the few seconds of refuge anyway.

Zodryn.4216:

With these updates I think dash is gm worthy. I say remove the damage from lotus (there’s enough reveal on other professions now to catch a condi ghost easily), and give bound a little extra something and I fully accept them as gm traits.

You could still add an interface for selecting them out if combat for convenience. No reason not to, even if they stay gm traits.

Wait, so if they remove the damage from Impaling Lotus, what’s its use?