Guild Wars 2

Give it a couple of weeks? No..why should we give it a couple of weeks? We have been waiting months for some decent updates to wvw and now we get this diamond that will go down in the annals of gaming history.

I thought i would go try test this arrowcart buff. The perfect opportunity came when we were attacked at hills by about 20 people attacking the wall with catas. Built 1 normal ac and took down the catas in Under 1min, caused enough dps to the attackers to let our 10 defenders jump out an wipe them. Got 12 bags on that 1 cart….and i dont even have all the buffs we can get from trait lines.

Now some of you would think that brilliant, i dont. It was boring. Wvw will now become that, only being able to take undefended towers/keeps. No skirmishing, Sieges will take even longer (and in T1 we could be talking days). Unskilled, unorganised defenders with a few AC’s will just rule the battlefields. If you want to take anything you are going to have to blob which is something that most of us dont want to do.

Wxp, karma, siegerazer…really dont care at all about that. Give me balanced fights, thats all I ask.

Aneu.1748:

FractalChaos.6539:

Aneu.1748:

FractalChaos.6539:

Loken.9724:

Lance.5892:

Johje Holan.4607:

It doesn’t actually seem that powerful to me. The most I was hitting for on a regular AC with no mastery was 1245. But mostly in the mid triple digits.

And to tell you the truth, I saw a lot of offensive AC’s too.

And the zergs in my match actually split up last night! It was fun.

http://imgur.com/w0LVRTA

1) try a superior
2) factor in wxp rank ac upgrades

This only encourages me to get 100 people to zerg a single tower. The 2 people on sup AC’s can’t possibly kill all 100 before we get the gate down…

…and while you do that, we’ll take the rest of the map. There’s a price to pay for everything.

With how many people? 2 people in those towers with AC’s will be able to hold you off… starting to see the problem? Probably not…

Firstly; two people in a tower with ACs will slow down 100 attackers for about…15, 20 seconds? I get that you were exaggerating to make a point (I hope you were; you’re not really so bad your 100 attackers can’t steamroll a tower with 2 defenders in under 60 seconds, are you?), but try to keep the scale even moderately realistic.

Secondly: two people with ACs in a tower can hold off 10 people, maximum…as long as said 10 people are not stupid enough to try and ram the gate down. If, however, said 10 people build 2 catas and aim them at the gate or the wall, the two people in the tower with arrow carts are pretty boned.

Ok so Superior arrowcarts have a limit of 50 people(?) and for sake of arguement (seen hits for 2.5k and 1.8k) that it hits 2k per hit (1s) now with 2 arrowcarts thats 4k per second for 50 people provided they are “zerging” and facerubbing a door.

Over 10 seconds that is a total of 40,000 damage (20,000 per arrowcart) for 50 people. Now take into account the healing/regen/waterfields that people are able to blow off, it is realistically impossible to sustain a 20,000 healing amount per 10 seconds for any group let alone 40,000 healing per 10 seconds. Factor in a 33% damage reduction from protection and you still realistically wouldnt be able to do it.

That is 2 pieces of siege holding off 50 people.

Now we come to your response which is “DONT FACERUB THE GATE HURR” “TREB” “RAM” “CATA” and so on and so forth and around in circles we go.

If you have 50 ppl standing still and not attking the carts them self i think they should die and not be able to take a keep. Do you think attking should be a guaranteed win? If any thing this IS the zerg counter that every one has been asking for.
What your asking with all of this is for number to be the only thing that is of any worth in WvW.

Just adding my 2 cents in this whole… discussion ?

I’m on T3 server, played around a couple of hours in WvW, defended and took stuff (spent most of the time on the offense)… Never had a problem with AC damage, but what I did found annoying was the fact that the range of traited AC’s was very close to the range of catapults. This coupled with the fact that there is no trait line for catapults makes catas almost as useless as rams in the current state of the game.
Maybe we could get catapult trait line along with ram trait line and a change in ram mechanics (having multiple people able to equip rams with skills that reduce damage dealt to rams from siege for example)… Treb trait line wouldn’t hurt either.

All in all, I don’t see what all the fuss is about buffed AC’s.. I do see how you need allot more coordination and higher level thinking before storming the towers/keeps, and I like that.
As for the the guilds who are into WvW just for a good romp, I know that it’s not the solution, but now you can rent your own server which allows for 10v10 battles. I know it’s not real GvG, but it’s as close as it gets with the exception of arranged guild duels in WvW, but if you are already focused on those the AC buff doesn’t really affect you.

Again, my 2 cents.

The ammount of ignorace in this thread is not even funny .Hur durr all day about "it’s ok to hold 50 ppl with 2 acs and YAY zerg buster "

What about the small group ? What can a 10 man team do now except of flipping camps considering a treb costs 100 suply and it will take a tremendous ammount of time to destroy anything with it giving even 1 single ele time to suicide gank the treb down by himself befere doing any damage to the tower/keep.

THIS PATCH IS NOT A ZERG BUSTER PATCH This patch KILLED SMALL SCALE AND SMALL TEAM COMPLETELY And it buffed the server that is not outmanned.Outmanned servers are even more kittened then before now.

Nightingale.8364:

Give it a couple of weeks? No..why should we give it a couple of weeks? We have been waiting months for some decent updates to wvw and now we get this diamond that will go down in the annals of gaming history.

I thought i would go try test this arrowcart buff. The perfect opportunity came when we were attacked at hills by about 20 people attacking the wall with catas. Built 1 normal ac and took down the catas in Under 1min, caused enough dps to the attackers to let our 10 defenders jump out an wipe them. Got 12 bags on that 1 cart….and i dont even have all the buffs we can get from trait lines.

Now some of you would think that brilliant, i dont. It was boring. Wvw will now become that, only being able to take undefended towers/keeps. No skirmishing, Sieges will take even longer (and in T1 we could be talking days). Unskilled, unorganised defenders with a few AC’s will just rule the battlefields. If you want to take anything you are going to have to blob which is something that most of us dont want to do.

Wxp, karma, siegerazer…really dont care at all about that. Give me balanced fights, thats all I ask.

I’ll assume you’re talking about the catas that people put right up against the wall to then hit both outer and inner.

Perhaps they do need to adjust the damage done to siege, or lower total damage slightly. But two days is not enough time to evaluate the effect it will have long term.

I always thought that was a BS move to put catas there anyway.

Maybe this will force people to utilize that little hill to the west of Hills. Set up siege there and down the wall. And since you like open field fights, that would be the perfect opportunity to go attack them on that lilttle hill. (Yes I know it can be counter trebed but if you like fights, don’t counter treb it. Go down and take ’em out face to face.)

Jski.6180:

If you have 50 ppl standing still and not attking the carts them self i think they should die and not be able to take a keep. Do you think attking should be a guaranteed win? If any thing this IS the zerg counter that every one has been asking for.

How many of those 50 have means to be attacking properly positioned carts?

Why did we spend 80 levels gearing up, learning our classes and skills to be reduced to 3 skills on an arrow cart? I want to fight other classes, not lob siege back and forth for hours and hours. Bring back the capture the flag GvG instances from GW1 or something if this siege wars is the direction for WvW and I’ll just avoid it and leave it to those who enjoy turtling in keeps.

Jski.6180:

Aneu.1748:

FractalChaos.6539:

Aneu.1748:

FractalChaos.6539:

Loken.9724:

Lance.5892:

Johje Holan.4607:

It doesn’t actually seem that powerful to me. The most I was hitting for on a regular AC with no mastery was 1245. But mostly in the mid triple digits.

And to tell you the truth, I saw a lot of offensive AC’s too.

And the zergs in my match actually split up last night! It was fun.

http://imgur.com/w0LVRTA

1) try a superior
2) factor in wxp rank ac upgrades

This only encourages me to get 100 people to zerg a single tower. The 2 people on sup AC’s can’t possibly kill all 100 before we get the gate down…

…and while you do that, we’ll take the rest of the map. There’s a price to pay for everything.

With how many people? 2 people in those towers with AC’s will be able to hold you off… starting to see the problem? Probably not…

Firstly; two people in a tower with ACs will slow down 100 attackers for about…15, 20 seconds? I get that you were exaggerating to make a point (I hope you were; you’re not really so bad your 100 attackers can’t steamroll a tower with 2 defenders in under 60 seconds, are you?), but try to keep the scale even moderately realistic.

Secondly: two people with ACs in a tower can hold off 10 people, maximum…as long as said 10 people are not stupid enough to try and ram the gate down. If, however, said 10 people build 2 catas and aim them at the gate or the wall, the two people in the tower with arrow carts are pretty boned.

Ok so Superior arrowcarts have a limit of 50 people(?) and for sake of arguement (seen hits for 2.5k and 1.8k) that it hits 2k per hit (1s) now with 2 arrowcarts thats 4k per second for 50 people provided they are “zerging” and facerubbing a door.

Over 10 seconds that is a total of 40,000 damage (20,000 per arrowcart) for 50 people. Now take into account the healing/regen/waterfields that people are able to blow off, it is realistically impossible to sustain a 20,000 healing amount per 10 seconds for any group let alone 40,000 healing per 10 seconds. Factor in a 33% damage reduction from protection and you still realistically wouldnt be able to do it.

That is 2 pieces of siege holding off 50 people.

Now we come to your response which is “DONT FACERUB THE GATE HURR” “TREB” “RAM” “CATA” and so on and so forth and around in circles we go.

If you have 50 ppl standing still and not attking the carts them self i think they should die and not be able to take a keep. Do you think attking should be a guaranteed win? If any thing this IS the zerg counter that every one has been asking for.
What your asking with all of this is for number to be the only thing that is of any worth in WvW.

There may be a misunderstanding:

Rams and golems and any other form of attacking a gate just does not work any longer. Because both siege and the people manning that siege die much too fast. So it gives us the only option: trebs. Except a properly sieged up tower or keep will already have a counter treb(s) set up inside the tower to kill trebs set up to take down walls.

So let’s go through this again, against a properly sieged and manned tower/keep:

ramming won’t work
golems won’t work
catas won’t work
trebs won’t work.

How do we even properly lay siege to the tower/keep if it’s impossible to do so? No, I’m not saying that we should just be allowed to destroy their gate/wall. Because before patch, you weren’t. Against, counter siege, and people fighting both inside and outside, it was a fair challenge to get inside, not even counting the fighting that would happen over capping and killing the keep lord.

Now? it’s either take it if theres nobody or near nobody inside or don’t take it at all.

This is all considering competent people and commanders on both sides.

Johje Holan.4607:

Hickeroar.9734:

If the benefit to the buff was that the smaller forces stood a chance against the larger forces while defending…that would be one thing…

The problem is that arrowcarts are being used as offensive weapons now. Zergs are dropping ACs outside of towers and keeps and using gaps above doors (and other creative aiming tricks) to aim them inside and take out all the siege…including other arrow carts, before attempting to take the tower.

And I should mention that even a small zerg with three arrow carts outside a tower can wipe anyone trying to get INTO that tower to defend it with breathtaking ease.

TC lost TCBL Bay last night to enemies dropping tons of superior arrow carts outside the gates of inner and wiping siege inside. When they came in, they hardly had any resistance from siege because they had used arrow carts to wipe almost all of it. That….is utterly broken.

The post immediatly following also by Hickroar:

Arrow carts almost have as much range as catapults now… Not to mention you may cata down that wall, but good luck getting inside the breach…

What? Your two posts back to back are arguing the two opposite points of view.

And you say TC lost Bay – which completely contradicts what another TC poster is saying (namley its impossible to take keeps now).

Come on. Just give it a couple of weeks.

Bay is a special case in that it’s horrible. Easily the easiest keep in the game to take. You can easily use ACs (a defensive weapon) as an offensive weapon in a place like Bay because of how many holes it has.

One post was arguing that ACs are now being used as offensive weapons which shows how OP they are. To be fair, the forces in Bay in that case were also PuGs who wouldn’t listen to a single word the commander said…but easily SHOULD have been able to lock it down had Bay not been so bloody horrible. Offensive ACs killed our defensive ACs in two showers via wonky camera/aiming angles. They could hit and see our AC siege from outside of bay inner. We couldn’t see or hit theirs. You can call that whatever you want. I call it “Bay Sucks.”

One post was implying that in most cases, such as garrisons and hills, these new ACs are going to make it insta-death if you have any more than two people manning the things.

I gave it a couple days. I have seen more arrow carts in the past two days than I’ve seen in the past month. They outnumber all other siege 10:1. Anyone arguing that they’re not OP is just delusional.

No thanks, I don’t need a few weeks.

Lance.5892:

FractalChaos.6539:

MagnusLL.8473:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Caliban.3176:

We open up keeps and towers to get to the people inside, not for any other reason.

The fact that this point has to be reiterated time and time again is probably the most disappointing part about this thread. It’s funny how the zerg-busting guilds are getting lumped in with the mythical karma train zergs simply because they disagree with this patch and see all its implications.

I hope you do understand that a game mode including towers, keeps, siege weapons, supply camps and supply lines, and whose score is computed on structures owned and not on total kills was never intended to be played as a bigger deathmatch arena.

THANK…FREAKING…YOU!!!!

This isn’t “PvP”; it’s WvW. It’s supposed to be about attrition, sieges, defenses. If you don’t care about that part of the game and only want to kill players, go play sPvP.

You know, the game mode Anet included for those who like to kill players without all that bothersome siege stuff?

and yet again, i must repeat myself

please read
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/pvp/

World vs. World (WvW) is PvP combat that involves hundred of players. Three huge teams —each representing a server, or world—battle for control over objectives on four massive maps in week-long matches.
Each map – one for each server and a huge “neutral” center map – is loaded with objectives that are worth points for the team that claims them. Players can band together to lay siege to castles, raid enemy supply caravans, clash with other players in truly massive battles, wreak havoc behind enemy lines, or build mighty weapons of war like trebuchets and siege golems.
While players are in WvW, they gain experience and loot just as they normally do while exploring Tyria. Plus, when their home world is doing well or wins a match in WvW, all players on that world receive special bonuses and perks.
World vs. World—it’s PvP combat on an epic scale!

oh oh oh! I like these posts!

“See! Anet said this! Its in stone! They cannot change it at all! I’m right! you’re wrong!”

And then came fractals and the ascended gear, and then the grind….

but, pft, anet never said anything against those, right? I mean, its not like they never gave a solid answer on the level cap being raised later on, causing you to have to level once more,…

graverr.6473:

spconder.2489:

I’m going to do the stupid thing an try to be reasonable about this.

Keeps and towers SHOULD be hard to capture. The whole point of building a fort is to give the defenders a rather substantial advantage, no?

Substantial advantage YES.And that they already have for being covered by walls and having the tactical higher ground advantage + suply stack.SUBSTANTIAL ADVANTAGE not WTFPAWN GODMODE I can deal with dodge ,i can deal with being oneshoted ,but i can’t deal that 1 ac = rams not usable.

Rams getting destroyed? Have a guardian put a bubble over them. Problem solved.

Rams and melee siege dies too fast .Acs were buffed 100% but melee range siege has the same crappy HP and it’s a waste of suply to try and build one.Also a small group of people can’t build a treb and and even one treb is completely useless to siege .Small teams are KITTENED no purpoise left for them other than flip camps every 10 min ,another great change thx PvP department.

Small teams can’t build trebs, and you say they’re useless? Well, considering that I was one of 3 people who started one of the largest wars over SM T6 has ever seen, that trebs can hit walls from a range that not even buffed ACs can reach, and that Cows are God-Tier at clearing towers out, I beg to differ.

Also, if you’re laying down siege in areas where you KNOW they are going to be shot down without taking out whatever could attack them or putting them over a bubble, you’re doing it wrong.

With suply being stalled like never before due to latest camp buff changes and making low value siege like rams unusable things are over the top harder to mantain a proper siege against a defended position.Not to mention unneficient against same or larger defending force.Outmanned should just log off now cuz no way in hell anyone can cap anything.Anet basicly buffed the strongest server and you guys agree with it.

Of course you can still cap while outmanned, you just need to play SMART. If you use Zerg mentality against a larger force with strong fortifications, of course you are going to fail.

Yes, it is harder to take out a defended position, but considering that before, you could just bring 50+ peeps to a keep and PvDoor your way in with ease, I’m thinking that this may be a good thing.

The only purpoise for rams now are for spies trolling a server’s suply and siege cap.Period.

No, just no…

Serophous.9085:

Lance.5892:

FractalChaos.6539:

MagnusLL.8473:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Caliban.3176:

We open up keeps and towers to get to the people inside, not for any other reason.

The fact that this point has to be reiterated time and time again is probably the most disappointing part about this thread. It’s funny how the zerg-busting guilds are getting lumped in with the mythical karma train zergs simply because they disagree with this patch and see all its implications.

I hope you do understand that a game mode including towers, keeps, siege weapons, supply camps and supply lines, and whose score is computed on structures owned and not on total kills was never intended to be played as a bigger deathmatch arena.

THANK…FREAKING…YOU!!!!

This isn’t “PvP”; it’s WvW. It’s supposed to be about attrition, sieges, defenses. If you don’t care about that part of the game and only want to kill players, go play sPvP.

You know, the game mode Anet included for those who like to kill players without all that bothersome siege stuff?

and yet again, i must repeat myself

please read
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/pvp/

World vs. World (WvW) is PvP combat that involves hundred of players. Three huge teams —each representing a server, or world—battle for control over objectives on four massive maps in week-long matches.
Each map – one for each server and a huge “neutral” center map – is loaded with objectives that are worth points for the team that claims them. Players can band together to lay siege to castles, raid enemy supply caravans, clash with other players in truly massive battles, wreak havoc behind enemy lines, or build mighty weapons of war like trebuchets and siege golems.
While players are in WvW, they gain experience and loot just as they normally do while exploring Tyria. Plus, when their home world is doing well or wins a match in WvW, all players on that world receive special bonuses and perks.
World vs. World—it’s PvP combat on an epic scale!

oh oh oh! I like these posts!

“See! Anet said this! Its in stone! They cannot change it at all! I’m right! you’re wrong!”

And then came fractals and the ascended gear, and then the grind….

but, pft, anet never said anything against those, right? I mean, its not like they never gave a solid answer on the level cap being raised later on, causing you to have to level once more,…

Fractals and ascended gear were/are not game changers or game breakers in the overall scheme of the existing game at the time. They were added to appeal to a broader player base and didn’t notably affect anything else.

This WvW change is entirely different. They took an existing paradigm and turned it on its head.

2 days to evaluate this isnt enough time? Took me 10 mins…seriously. Oh and for info…the new AC buff gives them further ranger than catas…put them on the hill and they can still be got…no need to treb anymore.

Take a few weeks to decide if you like, you will probably come to the same conclusions. Even the siege lovers have got to see how unbalanced this is..

Hickeroar.9734:

Serophous.9085:

Lance.5892:

FractalChaos.6539:

MagnusLL.8473:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Caliban.3176:

We open up keeps and towers to get to the people inside, not for any other reason.

The fact that this point has to be reiterated time and time again is probably the most disappointing part about this thread. It’s funny how the zerg-busting guilds are getting lumped in with the mythical karma train zergs simply because they disagree with this patch and see all its implications.

which brings me to my point, they said something, then they changed their minds.

So if Anet says anything else, they can never never change their minds and must stick to it no matter what?
I hope you do understand that a game mode including towers, keeps, siege weapons, supply camps and supply lines, and whose score is computed on structures owned and not on total kills was never intended to be played as a bigger deathmatch arena.

THANK…FREAKING…YOU!!!!

This isn’t “PvP”; it’s WvW. It’s supposed to be about attrition, sieges, defenses. If you don’t care about that part of the game and only want to kill players, go play sPvP.

You know, the game mode Anet included for those who like to kill players without all that bothersome siege stuff?

and yet again, i must repeat myself

please read
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/pvp/

World vs. World (WvW) is PvP combat that involves hundred of players. Three huge teams —each representing a server, or world—battle for control over objectives on four massive maps in week-long matches.
Each map – one for each server and a huge “neutral” center map – is loaded with objectives that are worth points for the team that claims them. Players can band together to lay siege to castles, raid enemy supply caravans, clash with other players in truly massive battles, wreak havoc behind enemy lines, or build mighty weapons of war like trebuchets and siege golems.
While players are in WvW, they gain experience and loot just as they normally do while exploring Tyria. Plus, when their home world is doing well or wins a match in WvW, all players on that world receive special bonuses and perks.
World vs. World—it’s PvP combat on an epic scale!

oh oh oh! I like these posts!

“See! Anet said this! Its in stone! They cannot change it at all! I’m right! you’re wrong!”

And then came fractals and the ascended gear, and then the grind….

but, pft, anet never said anything against those, right? I mean, its not like they never gave a solid answer on the level cap being raised later on, causing you to have to level once more,…

Fractals and ascended gear were/are not game changers or game breakers in the overall scheme of the existing game at the time. They were added to appeal to a broader player base and didn’t notably affect anything else.

This WvW change is entirely different. They took an existing paradigm and turned it on its head.

So anet can never never change its mind? Everything they say is set in stone?

spconder.2489:

graverr.6473:

spconder.2489:

I’m going to do the stupid thing an try to be reasonable about this.

Keeps and towers SHOULD be hard to capture. The whole point of building a fort is to give the defenders a rather substantial advantage, no?

Substantial advantage YES.And that they already have for being covered by walls and having the tactical higher ground advantage + suply stack.SUBSTANTIAL ADVANTAGE not WTFPAWN GODMODE I can deal with dodge ,i can deal with being oneshoted ,but i can’t deal that 1 ac = rams not usable.

Rams getting destroyed? Have a guardian put a bubble over them. Problem solved.

Guardian bubbles don’t protect against arrow carts. They’d have been used all along if they did.

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Jski.6180:

If you have 50 ppl standing still and not attking the carts them self i think they should die and not be able to take a keep. Do you think attking should be a guaranteed win? If any thing this IS the zerg counter that every one has been asking for.

How many of those 50 have means to be attacking properly positioned carts?

Any of them with aoe on an ranges attk. Unless the carts are only able to hit the door then that more of a problem every one attking a door doing some of the most pointless game play in wvw. Now there are exploitation with carts that lets you hit things that you should not be able to. There are shadows where the carts cant hit and you can work out where they are. With the zoom out hax program it comply brakes down the balancing on carts and ppl whom are using it in wvw even spvp should be ban from this game.

@Lance.5892
So they do work but you must be able to places them right. Golmes are not made for a long attk they are made for speed you can quickness them and take down non reinforced doors before most ppl know what is going on.
All this falls into the limitation of zooming out. A cart that can hit ppl that are just out side of meleeing the door can be hit by ppl from the ground. Carts that can only hit the door ppl cant hit them but these carts cant hit rams placed well. The ranges on the ram attk is surprisingly long.

I will merge a few posts in one WALL OF TEXT because i feel the ammount of clueless Ac lover posts made them be lost in the spam. Please take a time and read this like many other extremely good argumentsThank you

Defending against a big zerg was completely doable before patch.Happened every day and it was perfectly easy for 10 players to defend a tower against 60 for 2- 3 hours.The only difference was that the defenders had to actually use or posess a brain instead of just droping an arrowcart and completely negate 90% of possible tactics.Now is treb or gtfo.
IF you have a large zerg trebs won’t be a problem.However if you only have a 10 – 15 man group you can aswell log off cuz u wont be seeing any action except flipping camps every 10 minutes.
Terrible change for anyone that does not run a 60 man blob and completely gamebreaking for small teams to groups consisting up to 4-5 parties.It completely destroyed any tactical aproach to this game mode except running a a megazerg that is able to drop 10 trebs for 10 suply each.

spconder.2489:

I’m going to do the stupid thing an try to be reasonable about this.

Keeps and towers SHOULD be hard to capture. The whole point of building a fort is to give the defenders a rather substantial advantage, no?

Defenders should ubstantial advantage YES.And that they already have for being covered by walls and having the tactical higher ground advantage + suply stack.SUBSTANTIAL ADVANTAGE not WTFPAWN GODMODE .We can deal with dodge ,we can deal with being oneshoted ,we can live with using better organization and awareness,but we can’t deal that 1 superior ac and 1 player = rams not usable.

Rams and melee siege dies too fast .Acs were buffed 100% but melee range siege has the same crappy HP and it’s a waste of suply to try and build one.Also a small group of people can’t build a treb and and even one treb is completely useless to siege .Small teams are KITTENED no purpoise left for them other than flip camps every 10 min ,another great change thx PvP department.

With suply being stalled like never before due to latest camp buff changes and making low value siege like rams unusable things are over the top harder to mantain a proper siege against a defended position.Not to mention unneficient against same or larger defending force.Outmanned should just log off now cuz no way in hell anyone can cap anything.Anet basicly buffed the strongest server and you guys agree with it.

The only purpoise for rams now are for spies trolling a server’s suply and siege cap.Period.

AC buff needs to go and reimplemented only for OUTMANNED to actually help it’s purpoise and balance the game in the opposite of what they did with this patch.

The ammount of ignorace in this thread is not even funny .Hur durr all day about "it’s ok to hold 50 ppl with 2 acs and YAY zerg buster "
What about the small group ? What can a 10 man team do now except of flipping camps considering a treb costs 100 suply and it will take a tremendous ammount of time to destroy anything with it giving even 1 single ele time to suicide gank the treb down by himself befere doing any damage to the tower/keep.
THIS PATCH IS NOT A ZERG BUSTER PATCH This patch KILLED SMALL SCALE AND SMALL TEAM COMPLETELY And it buffed the server that is not outmanned.Outmanned servers are even more kittened then before now.

graverr.6473:

spconder.2489:

graverr.6473:

spconder.2489:

I’m going to do the stupid thing an try to be reasonable about this.

Keeps and towers SHOULD be hard to capture. The whole point of building a fort is to give the defenders a rather substantial advantage, no?

Substantial advantage YES.And that they already have for being covered by walls and having the tactical higher ground advantage + suply stack.SUBSTANTIAL ADVANTAGE not WTFPAWN GODMODE I can deal with dodge ,i can deal with being oneshoted ,but i can’t deal that 1 ac = rams not usable.

Rams getting destroyed? Have a guardian put a bubble over them. Problem solved.

Rams and melee siege dies too fast .Acs were buffed 100% but melee range siege has the same crappy HP and it’s a waste of suply to try and build one.Also a small group of people can’t build a treb and and even one treb is completely useless to siege .Small teams are KITTENED no purpoise left for them other than flip camps every 10 min ,another great change thx PvP department.

Small teams can’t build trebs, and you say they’re useless? Well, considering that I was one of 3 people who started one of the largest wars over SM T6 has ever seen, that trebs can hit walls from a range that not even buffed ACs can reach, and that Cows are God-Tier at clearing towers out, I beg to differ.

Also, if you’re laying down siege in areas where you KNOW they are going to be shot down without taking out whatever could attack them or putting them over a bubble, you’re doing it wrong.

With suply being stalled like never before due to latest camp buff changes and making low value siege like rams unusable things are over the top harder to mantain a proper siege against a defended position.Not to mention unneficient against same or larger defending force.Outmanned should just log off now cuz no way in hell anyone can cap anything.Anet basicly buffed the strongest server and you guys agree with it.

Of course you can still cap while outmanned, you just need to play SMART. If you use Zerg mentality against a larger force with strong fortifications, of course you are going to fail.

Yes, it is harder to take out a defended position, but considering that before, you could just bring 50+ peeps to a keep and PvDoor your way in with ease, I’m thinking that this may be a good thing.

The only purpoise for rams now are for spies trolling a server’s suply and siege cap.Period.

No, just no…

THANK YOU .You completely proved you have no clue about WvW or class/game mechanics in one post .I strongly advice the devs or anyone to ignore anything you say in this thread.

Place a guardian bubble on the rams Roflmao.

Oh, and would you mind pointing out what I said that was wrong? Otherwise you’re just spouting ad hominem.

Hickeroar.9734:

spconder.2489:

graverr.6473:

spconder.2489:

I’m going to do the stupid thing an try to be reasonable about this.

Keeps and towers SHOULD be hard to capture. The whole point of building a fort is to give the defenders a rather substantial advantage, no?

Substantial advantage YES.And that they already have for being covered by walls and having the tactical higher ground advantage + suply stack.SUBSTANTIAL ADVANTAGE not WTFPAWN GODMODE I can deal with dodge ,i can deal with being oneshoted ,but i can’t deal that 1 ac = rams not usable.

Rams getting destroyed? Have a guardian put a bubble over them. Problem solved.

Guardian bubbles don’t protect against arrow carts. They’d have been used all along if they did.

Huh, thought they did. My mistake.

Now that I tihnk about it, that doesn’t make any sense. Why would they make ACs unblockable?! That just seems… stupid.

Serophous.9085:

Hickeroar.9734:

Serophous.9085:

Lance.5892:

FractalChaos.6539:

MagnusLL.8473:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Caliban.3176:

We open up keeps and towers to get to the people inside, not for any other reason.

The fact that this point has to be reiterated time and time again is probably the most disappointing part about this thread. It’s funny how the zerg-busting guilds are getting lumped in with the mythical karma train zergs simply because they disagree with this patch and see all its implications.

which brings me to my point, they said something, then they changed their minds.

So if Anet says anything else, they can never never change their minds and must stick to it no matter what?
I hope you do understand that a game mode including towers, keeps, siege weapons, supply camps and supply lines, and whose score is computed on structures owned and not on total kills was never intended to be played as a bigger deathmatch arena.

THANK…FREAKING…YOU!!!!

This isn’t “PvP”; it’s WvW. It’s supposed to be about attrition, sieges, defenses. If you don’t care about that part of the game and only want to kill players, go play sPvP.

You know, the game mode Anet included for those who like to kill players without all that bothersome siege stuff?

and yet again, i must repeat myself

please read
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/pvp/

World vs. World (WvW) is PvP combat that involves hundred of players. Three huge teams —each representing a server, or world—battle for control over objectives on four massive maps in week-long matches.
Each map – one for each server and a huge “neutral” center map – is loaded with objectives that are worth points for the team that claims them. Players can band together to lay siege to castles, raid enemy supply caravans, clash with other players in truly massive battles, wreak havoc behind enemy lines, or build mighty weapons of war like trebuchets and siege golems.
While players are in WvW, they gain experience and loot just as they normally do while exploring Tyria. Plus, when their home world is doing well or wins a match in WvW, all players on that world receive special bonuses and perks.
World vs. World—it’s PvP combat on an epic scale!

oh oh oh! I like these posts!

“See! Anet said this! Its in stone! They cannot change it at all! I’m right! you’re wrong!”

And then came fractals and the ascended gear, and then the grind….

but, pft, anet never said anything against those, right? I mean, its not like they never gave a solid answer on the level cap being raised later on, causing you to have to level once more,…

Fractals and ascended gear were/are not game changers or game breakers in the overall scheme of the existing game at the time. They were added to appeal to a broader player base and didn’t notably affect anything else.

This WvW change is entirely different. They took an existing paradigm and turned it on its head.

So anet can never never change its mind? Everything they say is set in stone?

Uh, no one said they couldn’t change their mind. The point is, THEY TOOK AN EXISTING PARADIGM AND TURNED IT ON ITS HEAD.

It would be idiotic if they did this and didn’t expect backlash.

Imagine if ANet took warriors and made them the lowest health, least damage dealing class in the game. Yeah…sure…they can change their mind. How many people do you think are still gonna play warrior though?

Apply that analogy to WvW.

Freeelancer.2860:

I’m on T3 server, played around a couple of hours in WvW, defended and took stuff (spent most of the time on the offense)… Never had a problem with AC damage, but what I did found annoying was the fact that the range of traited AC’s was very close to the range of catapults. This coupled with the fact that there is no trait line for catapults makes catas almost as useless as rams in the current state of the game.

The bolded segment is what puts me off about the arrow cart changes the most. In my mind, the ability to neutralize catapults at distance with arrow carts is a bigger problem than the damage increases.

As for the the guilds who are into WvW just for a good romp, I know that it’s not the solution, but now you can rent your own server which allows for 10v10 battles. I know it’s not real GvG, but it’s as close as it gets with the exception of arranged guild duels in WvW, but if you are already focused on those the AC buff doesn’t really affect you.

Argued against this earlier. WvW attracts people to attempt to siege a position. There’s good business in being able to take a tightly coordinated group and killing those people, whether it is offensively or defensively. If we get a good fight out of it, even better. When everyone’s sitting around on arrow carts, nobody wins.

Zephyrus.9680:

AC should do no damage to other siege weapons. At least with the #1 attack.

Either that or the buff should only happen when outmanned.

The cheapest piece of siege SHOULD be one of the weakest and certainly not able to counter almost any offensive tactic.

I agree 100%; the ACs should be able to kill the ram operators, just not the ram (or cata or whatever). It’s an anti-personnel weapon; it should be useless against walls, doors, and other siege weapons.

What? You’re saying an AC can hit that hill to the west of Hills? You tested that?

Johje Holan.4607:

What? You’re saying an AC can hit that hill to the west of Hills? You tested that?

Even buffed, the AC range is still 140 short of a cata. Cata = 4000 range. Range buffed AC = 3500 range. AC radius = 360.

3500 + 360 = 3860.

ACs don’t outrange Catas. Not sure why people keep saying they do. If we’re gonna debate this thing, let’s not start making stuff up.

Hickeroar.9734:

Serophous.9085:

Hickeroar.9734:

Serophous.9085:

Lance.5892:

FractalChaos.6539:

MagnusLL.8473:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Caliban.3176:

We open up keeps and towers to get to the people inside, not for any other reason.

The fact that this point has to be reiterated time and time again is probably the most disappointing part about this thread. It’s funny how the zerg-busting guilds are getting lumped in with the mythical karma train zergs simply because they disagree with this patch and see all its implications.

which brings me to my point, they said something, then they changed their minds.

So if Anet says anything else, they can never never change their minds and must stick to it no matter what?
I hope you do understand that a game mode including towers, keeps, siege weapons, supply camps and supply lines, and whose score is computed on structures owned and not on total kills was never intended to be played as a bigger deathmatch arena.

THANK…FREAKING…YOU!!!!

This isn’t “PvP”; it’s WvW. It’s supposed to be about attrition, sieges, defenses. If you don’t care about that part of the game and only want to kill players, go play sPvP.

You know, the game mode Anet included for those who like to kill players without all that bothersome siege stuff?

and yet again, i must repeat myself

please read
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/pvp/

World vs. World (WvW) is PvP combat that involves hundred of players. Three huge teams —each representing a server, or world—battle for control over objectives on four massive maps in week-long matches.
Each map – one for each server and a huge “neutral” center map – is loaded with objectives that are worth points for the team that claims them. Players can band together to lay siege to castles, raid enemy supply caravans, clash with other players in truly massive battles, wreak havoc behind enemy lines, or build mighty weapons of war like trebuchets and siege golems.
While players are in WvW, they gain experience and loot just as they normally do while exploring Tyria. Plus, when their home world is doing well or wins a match in WvW, all players on that world receive special bonuses and perks.
World vs. World—it’s PvP combat on an epic scale!

oh oh oh! I like these posts!

“See! Anet said this! Its in stone! They cannot change it at all! I’m right! you’re wrong!”

And then came fractals and the ascended gear, and then the grind….

but, pft, anet never said anything against those, right? I mean, its not like they never gave a solid answer on the level cap being raised later on, causing you to have to level once more,…

Fractals and ascended gear were/are not game changers or game breakers in the overall scheme of the existing game at the time. They were added to appeal to a broader player base and didn’t notably affect anything else.

This WvW change is entirely different. They took an existing paradigm and turned it on its head.

So anet can never never change its mind? Everything they say is set in stone?

Uh, no one said they couldn’t change their mind. The point is, THEY TOOK AN EXISTING PARADIGM AND TURNED IT ON ITS HEAD.

It would be idiotic if they did this and didn’t expect backlash.

Imagine if ANet took warriors and made them the lowest health, least damage dealing class in the game. Yeah…sure…they can change their mind. How many people do you think are still gonna play warrior though?

Apply that analogy to WvW.

So…they took zergs and made them the lowest health and least damage dealing thing in the game?

Jski.6180:

Any of them with aoe on an ranges attk. Unless the carts are only able to hit the door then that more of a problem every one attking a door doing some of the most pointless game play in wvw. Now there are exploitation with carts that lets you hit things that you should not be able to. There are shadows where the carts cant hit and you can work out where they are. With the zoom out hax program it comply brakes down the balancing on carts and ppl whom are using it in wvw even spvp should be ban from this game.

Yes, standard AOE will work if the opposition is placing siege without paying attention to certain fine details. However, what you just told me is that you’ve never dealt with properly positioned carts.

If there’s one thing I will give Borlis Pass credit for, it is that they know how to position their siege on walls such that any attempted AOE dropped on them will miss. This includes Meteor Shower. The only way you’re getting at it is Dragon’s Tooth. How many Scepter Eles do you plan on running around with?

Johje Holan.4607:

What? You’re saying an AC can hit that hill to the west of Hills? You tested that?

I’d have to yank a traited AC user to test that. Maybe later today.

graverr.6473:

I will merge a few posts in one WALL OF TEXT because i feel the ammount of clueless Ac lover posts made them be lost in the spam. *Please take a time and read this like many other extremely good argumentkittenhank you

---

Defending against a big zerg was completely doable before patch.Happened every day and it was perfectly easy for 10 players to defend a tower against 60 for 2- 3 hours.The only difference was that the defenders had to actually use or posess a brain instead of just droping an arrowcart and completely negate 90% of possible tactics.Now is treb or gtfo.
IF you have a large zerg trebs won’t be a problem.However if you only have a 10 – 15 man group you can aswell log off cuz u wont be seeing any action except flipping camps every 10 minutes.
Terrible change for anyone that does not run a 60 man blob and completely gamebreaking for small teams to groups consisting up to 4-5 parties.It completely destroyed any tactical aproach to this game mode except running a a megazerg that is able to drop 10 trebs for 10 suply each.

spconder.2489:

I’m going to do the stupid thing an try to be reasonable about this.

Keeps and towers SHOULD be hard to capture. The whole point of building a fort is to give the defenders a rather substantial advantage, no?

Defenders should ubstantial advantage YES.And that they already have for being covered by walls and having the tactical higher ground advantage + suply stack.SUBSTANTIAL ADVANTAGE not WTFPAWN GODMODE .We can deal with dodge ,we can deal with being oneshoted ,we can live with using better organization and awareness,but we can’t deal that 1 superior ac and 1 player = rams not usable.

Rams and melee siege dies too fast .Acs were buffed 100% but melee range siege has the same crappy HP and it’s a waste of suply to try and build one.Also a small group of people can’t build a treb and and even one treb is completely useless to siege .Small teams are KITTENED no purpoise left for them other than flip camps every 10 min ,another great change thx PvP department.

With suply being stalled like never before due to latest camp buff changes and making low value siege like rams unusable things are over the top harder to mantain a proper siege against a defended position.Not to mention unneficient against same or larger defending force.Outmanned should just log off now cuz no way in hell anyone can cap anything.Anet basicly buffed the strongest server and you guys agree with it.

The only purpoise for rams now are for spies trolling a server’s suply and siege cap.Period.

AC buff needs to go and reimplemented only for OUTMANNED to actually help it’s purpoise and balance the game in the opposite of what they did with this patch.

The ammount of ignorace in this thread is not even funny .Hur durr all day about "it’s ok to hold 50 ppl with 2 acs and YAY zerg buster "
What about the small group ? What can a 10 man team do now except of flipping camps considering a treb costs 100 suply and it will take a tremendous ammount of time to destroy anything with it giving even 1 single ele time to suicide gank the treb down by himself befere doing any damage to the tower/keep.
THIS PATCH IS NOT A ZERG BUSTER PATCH This patch KILLED SMALL SCALE AND SMALL TEAM COMPLETELY And it buffed the server that is not outmanned.Outmanned servers are even more kittened then before now.

Last point mainly so adding in a 30 sec lag time for under attk harms small scale teams? Your cherry picking parts of this patch for your point of view. If you hatted AC before the patch then your going to hate them after. This is just some evidences that ppl have been waiting for to kittenhis weapon (all be it very bad evidences with one video and a lot of hear say and pic of ppl putting up arrow carts).
The truth is ppl have wanted AC removed from WvW for a long time but these same ppl want all things removed from WvW they just want an open pvp game. They are trying to forces GW2 into something that THEY want and that the community dose NOT want

I do not mind with a small buff on AC, but this is to muchrather have larger map, stronger castles, movable siege….

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Jski.6180:

Any of them with aoe on an ranges attk. Unless the carts are only able to hit the door then that more of a problem every one attking a door doing some of the most pointless game play in wvw. Now there are exploitation with carts that lets you hit things that you should not be able to. There are shadows where the carts cant hit and you can work out where they are. With the zoom out hax program it comply brakes down the balancing on carts and ppl whom are using it in wvw even spvp should be ban from this game.

Yes, standard AOE will work if the opposition is placing siege without paying attention to certain fine details. However, what you just told me is that you’ve never dealt with properly positioned carts.

If there’s one thing I will give Borlis Pass credit for, it is that they know how to position their siege on walls such that any attempted AOE dropped on them will miss. This includes Meteor Shower. The only way you’re getting at it is Dragon’s Tooth. How many Scepter Eles do you plan on running around with?

Johje Holan.4607:

What? You’re saying an AC can hit that hill to the west of Hills? You tested that?

I’d have to yank a traited AC user to test that. Maybe later today.

Well this is more of a question of what the AC can and cant hit. If you have a cart behind a door you cant hit any thing but what is right on that door. You can hit the door with ram that are not right on the door. As for the other places to put carts you can hit things right out side of that door if they are on the walls but being on the walls make them hittable by any aoe (i guess gurdian aoe is a bit small to hit it but it should land from time to time).

Also there are more then just Ele’s DT whom can hit things that they cant see its just not well known info.

spconder.2489:

Hickeroar.9734:

spconder.2489:

graverr.6473:

spconder.2489:

I’m going to do the stupid thing an try to be reasonable about this.

Keeps and towers SHOULD be hard to capture. The whole point of building a fort is to give the defenders a rather substantial advantage, no?

Substantial advantage YES.And that they already have for being covered by walls and having the tactical higher ground advantage + suply stack.SUBSTANTIAL ADVANTAGE not WTFPAWN GODMODE I can deal with dodge ,i can deal with being oneshoted ,but i can’t deal that 1 ac = rams not usable.

Rams getting destroyed? Have a guardian put a bubble over them. Problem solved.

Guardian bubbles don’t protect against arrow carts. They’d have been used all along if they did.

Huh, thought they did. My mistake.

Now that I tihnk about it, that doesn’t make any sense. Why would they make ACs unblockable?! That just seems… stupid.

It has always been like that. AC’s should not be blockable, they should just deal reasonable damage and apply pressure to groups. You know, what they did before this ’’gamebreak patch".

Imagine AC being classified as projectiles. 1 Feedback would blow it up, you would have to be careful not to hit a wall of reflection or an engi. And so many skills would stop it completely. That would be broken as well.

Caliban.3176:

FractalChaos.6539:

TyrDaishi.1057:

FractalChaos.6539:

sostronk.8167:

“…they have tunnel vision and the karma train mentality built into them…”

Thank you. My faith in the average gamer is moderately restored. It’s nice to see someone grasps the real problem here. The real reason behind the griping is that “MY KARMA AND WXP PER MINUTE IS OFF BY 12.731% NOW ANET SUXXORZZZ!! I WANT MY FAST EASY KARMA BACK!!!”

There is not one of the many well known and respected Guilds that Caliban and I mentioned caring for wxp or karma.

You are missing the point of what we are trying to say.

We want WvW to be hard, we want WvW to be a gamemode where you need to work hard to achieve something. We are just not satisfied with the methodes that where used to do so.

One of the many reasons is that there are literally hundreds of suggestions made in these very forums to bring a better experience for all gamers in guild Wars 2, which are getting ignored so far. And keep in mind that the suggestions vary from 1vs1 to a full out large scale battle 100 vs 100 vs 100.

I’m not a big fan of the cult of personality that seems to spring up in videogames. I never heard of those guilds you mentioned, and I don’t care in any case. Their thoughts and opinions are no more important than anyone else’s. More than 3/4 of the time, clashes with this or that “uber skilled WvW guild” in the open field culminate with the realization that they’re pretty kitten ordinary.

They’re just really good at PR.

It’s not about whether you like us or think we are good. It’s that you were wrong about the way you judged us.

And even if you think we are ordinary our opinion still matters, just as much as yours does. But these guilds usually have a lot of experience in the game so it is likely they might know what they talk about. It gives people a framework to put those posts in. It also shows numbers. These guilds range from anywhere between 20 to 300 members (though most probably float around 100 active members with peaks of online members of about 50-60)

Whoa, whoa; this isn’t an indictment of any one specific guild. I’m simply pointing out that “Oooooh, Guilds A, B, C,D and E all hate this change? Wow, and I hear they’re pretty good; they must be right!!” doesn’t even enter into the debate. Who you are, how well known you are, and how impressive a guild appears to someone else has zero incidence on the debate at hand, and it doesn’t mean they have anymore credibility than anyone else.

This is a different hobby horse of mine, though. I have 3 level 80 characters, and all three entered WvW at or about level 9, and reached 80 by playing WvW exclusively. Others may have 4 or 5 level 80s with the same background, who knows. The point is that people like me have just as much time /played in WvW as “uber guild X”, and just as much knowledge and experience, and in my personal experience (that is, what I have been through and not what someone else says I should think), this arrow cart buff is just not that big of a deal.

No one has shown me any evidence yet to contradict what I am seeing in the field.

Also;

FractalChaos.6539:

ParaldaWind.4523:

I was both wiped by superior arrow carts tonight, and wiped others, and I never once had any fun doing it.

Stop encouraging us not to PvP, Anet.

I timed this last night; I have a level 80 Engineer with about 2400 armor and 24k hit points. He literally stood, /dancing, in arrow rain from a superior AC for 35 seconds before the AC got him down to 30% HP and he had to heal himself. He then /danced for another 17-18 seconds before /laughing and heading back into Bay.

Either you’re not very good at this game, or else you’re exaggerating/lying.

Of course they are exaggerating. I played my engineer and then my Mesmer last night for several hours. In neither case could I stand in the multiple red rings and just take hits from arrow carts but in neither case did the arrow cart just incapacitate me and kill me instantly, I had time to move and avoid damage. All the buff does is make the arrow cart viable where it was just ignored before. It also make it a viable tool to deploy in the field where before it was just steam-rolled even by small groups.

In the case where 5 or 6 carts are guarding a gate…er attack more from distance or go to a different gate or wall and plan your siege a little better…man do I have to explain every possible way to work around an arrow cart during siege. Instead of crying like babies maybe modifying play style might be more advantageous.

I love this update. I’m finding rather amusing how zerging made people clueless about proper siege use, both in using the right spots and manning them.

Caliban.3176:

FractalChaos.6539:

Aneu.1748:

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

As mentioned before a group of 30 could hold a keep against 100 people even before the patch.

Give me command of 100 PUGs with map chat against your 30 best WvW players on voice chat, and I will run those 100 PUGs down your collective gullets, buffed ACs or not. You won’t even know what hit you.

What server are you on, if you can organise an entire map then let us know, we will take you up on that.

I’m on SoR; enjoy the ridiculous queues. Now THERE is something Anet should be focusing on. =((((

Ok, we’ve beaten 100 SoR’s already, we can do it again.

It must have been a very long time ago. I left Dragonbrand 1 week after launch to join SoR, been here ever since, and I’ve never heard of you.

Dzent.2750:

Well i used to be an WvWvW player but then i took an arrow from a overpowered arrow cart to the knee .

Why the hell didn’t anyone come up with that line sooner?? =P

FractalChaos.6539:

Zephyrus.9680:

AC should do no damage to other siege weapons. At least with the #1 attack.

Either that or the buff should only happen when outmanned.

The cheapest piece of siege SHOULD be one of the weakest and certainly not able to counter almost any offensive tactic.

I agree 100%; the ACs should be able to kill the ram operators, just not the ram (or cata or whatever). It’s an anti-personnel weapon; it should be useless against walls, doors, and other siege weapons.

I would be ok with this. Woh, do we have the beginning of a consensus between those who like and those who hate this patch?

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

FractalChaos.6539:

TyrDaishi.1057:

FractalChaos.6539:

sostronk.8167:

“…they have tunnel vision and the karma train mentality built into them…”

Thank you. My faith in the average gamer is moderately restored. It’s nice to see someone grasps the real problem here. The real reason behind the griping is that “MY KARMA AND WXP PER MINUTE IS OFF BY 12.731% NOW ANET SUXXORZZZ!! I WANT MY FAST EASY KARMA BACK!!!”

There is not one of the many well known and respected Guilds that Caliban and I mentioned caring for wxp or karma.

You are missing the point of what we are trying to say.

We want WvW to be hard, we want WvW to be a gamemode where you need to work hard to achieve something. We are just not satisfied with the methodes that where used to do so.

One of the many reasons is that there are literally hundreds of suggestions made in these very forums to bring a better experience for all gamers in guild Wars 2, which are getting ignored so far. And keep in mind that the suggestions vary from 1vs1 to a full out large scale battle 100 vs 100 vs 100.

I’m not a big fan of the cult of personality that seems to spring up in videogames. I never heard of those guilds you mentioned, and I don’t care in any case. Their thoughts and opinions are no more important than anyone else’s. More than 3/4 of the time, clashes with this or that “uber skilled WvW guild” in the open field culminate with the realization that they’re pretty kitten ordinary.

They’re just really good at PR.

It’s not about whether you like us or think we are good. It’s that you were wrong about the way you judged us.

And even if you think we are ordinary our opinion still matters, just as much as yours does. But these guilds usually have a lot of experience in the game so it is likely they might know what they talk about. It gives people a framework to put those posts in. It also shows numbers. These guilds range from anywhere between 20 to 300 members (though most probably float around 100 active members with peaks of online members of about 50-60)

Whoa, whoa; this isn’t an indictment of any one specific guild. I’m simply pointing out that “Oooooh, Guilds A, B, C,D and E all hate this change? Wow, and I hear they’re pretty good; they must be right!!” doesn’t even enter into the debate. Who you are, how well known you are, and how impressive a guild appears to someone else has zero incidence on the debate at hand, and it doesn’t mean they have anymore credibility than anyone else.

This is a different hobby horse of mine, though. I have 3 level 80 characters, and all three entered WvW at or about level 9, and reached 80 by playing WvW exclusively. Others may have 4 or 5 level 80s with the same background, who knows. The point is that people like me have just as much time /played in WvW as “uber guild X”, and just as much knowledge and experience, and in my personal experience (that is, what I have been through and not what someone else says I should think), this arrow cart buff is just not that big of a deal.

No one has shown me any evidence yet to contradict what I am seeing in the field.

Also;

You missed the point there. Showing guilds not liking the change represents a large portion of the wvw playerbase that plays the game every day. Dont get me wrong, there are people who play alot of wvw every day who are not in wvw guilds, but when a large portion of players who dedicate their gameplay to organized wvw play dislike a patch, there is something wrong.

Jski.6180:

Well this is more of a question of what the AC can and cant hit. If you have a cart behind a door you cant hit any thing but what is right on that door. You can hit the door with ram that are not right on the door. As for the other places to put carts you can hit things right out side of that door if they are on the walls but being on the walls make them hittable by any aoe (i guess gurdian aoe is a bit small to hit it but it should land from time to time).

Also there are more then just Ele’s DT whom can hit things that they cant see its just not well known info.

Why do you keep moving the goal posts?

Borlis has used specific positions of the back lip of the wall to place carts such that your “throw all the AOE on the wall” method fails. This is possible – we’ve even made their commanders rage over our use of DT to stop it. How many people out of that 50 are a. knowledgeable about stopping it, and b. have the means to stop it?

Lance.5892:

FractalChaos.6539:

Lance.5892:

MagnusLL.8473:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Caliban.3176:

We open up keeps and towers to get to the people inside, not for any other reason.

The fact that this point has to be reiterated time and time again is probably the most disappointing part about this thread. It’s funny how the zerg-busting guilds are getting lumped in with the mythical karma train zergs simply because they disagree with this patch and see all its implications.

I hope you do understand that a game mode including towers, keeps, siege weapons, supply camps and supply lines, and whose score is computed on structures owned and not on total kills was never intended to be played as a bigger deathmatch arena.

REALLY?? REALLY??

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/pvp/

World vs. World (WvW) is PvP combat that involves hundred of players. Three huge teams —each representing a server, or world—battle for control over objectives on four massive maps in week-long matches.
Each map – one for each server and a huge “neutral” center map – is loaded with objectives that are worth points for the team that claims them. Players can band together to lay siege to castles, raid enemy supply caravans, clash with other players in truly massive battles, wreak havoc behind enemy lines, or build mighty weapons of war like trebuchets and siege golems.
While players are in WvW, they gain experience and loot just as they normally do while exploring Tyria. Plus, when their home world is doing well or wins a match in WvW, all players on that world receive special bonuses and perks.
World vs. World—it’s PvP combat on an epic scale!

STRAIGHT FROM ARENANET’S MOUTH ON GUILD WARS 2 WEBSITE

PVP COMBAT ON AN EPIC SCALE

…involving “mighty weapons of war like trebuchets and siege golems” in order to “lay siege to castles”.

and thus where does it say anything about attrition?

PVP COMBAT ON AN EPIC SCALE

Mmmm, yes. Silly me, believing that the inclusion of supply, supply camps and supply lines (upon which all defense and offense depends) might not implicitly involve attrition, i.e. starving the enemy of supplies while wearing down his defenses.

The buff is mainly too much on the siege. All those saying don’t ram a defended gate? Well was ramming an defended gate other night with only 1 guy inside and 1 superior arrow cart and our rams got trashed. 1 Sup Ac shouldn’t have the power to eradicate 3 superior rams defended by 15 people.

If we were to treb, it would have taken too long and we would have been spotted and annihilated by the still prominent mega blobs before we could get the wall down. Catas were in range of another Sup AC, Could only build 1 golem which would have crumpled in seconds.

My main point is this; 1 person shouldn’t be able to stop a group which has done everything correctly i.e stopped all defender stragglers getting and such. He should be there to warn and pressure the attackers by say making the ram users get off and all but he shouldn’t be able to stop an attack dead like he can. Sure Ninjas shouldn’t (They should in my opinion but meh whatever) happen, but then it’s up to the enemy to respond as to whether a ninja happens or not.

This also goes out to hose who say all small groups shouldn’t be able to take ‘towers and keeps’ and the ones who say WvW is about Large scale battles, not really a large sclae battle when 1 person stops attacks like that.

The AC’s need to do less damage against siege at the very least.

Oh and before you say ‘You should have cleared the siege before you hit the tower’ The AC wasn’t on the wall it was at the lords room of NW tower, if we wanted to clear the siege we’d have to burn the very little supply we had.

Jski.6180:

Last point mainly so adding in a 30 sec lag time for under attk harms small scale teams? Your cherry picking parts of this patch for your point of view. If you hatted AC before the patch then your going to hate them after. This is just some evidences that ppl have been waiting for to kittenhis weapon (all be it very bad evidences with one video and a lot of hear say and pic of ppl putting up arrow carts).
The truth is ppl have wanted AC removed from WvW for a long time but these same ppl want all things removed from WvW they just want an open pvp game. They are trying to forces GW2 into something that THEY want and that the community dose NOT want

Ever heard of scouts ? I know at least 5 servers that constantly have 2 or 3 people inside ANY tower and that was prepatch.Argument cannot stand.

Caliban.3176:

spconder.2489:

Hickeroar.9734:

spconder.2489:

graverr.6473:

spconder.2489:

I’m going to do the stupid thing an try to be reasonable about this.

Keeps and towers SHOULD be hard to capture. The whole point of building a fort is to give the defenders a rather substantial advantage, no?

Substantial advantage YES.And that they already have for being covered by walls and having the tactical higher ground advantage + suply stack.SUBSTANTIAL ADVANTAGE not WTFPAWN GODMODE I can deal with dodge ,i can deal with being oneshoted ,but i can’t deal that 1 ac = rams not usable.

Rams getting destroyed? Have a guardian put a bubble over them. Problem solved.

Guardian bubbles don’t protect against arrow carts. They’d have been used all along if they did.

Huh, thought they did. My mistake.

Now that I tihnk about it, that doesn’t make any sense. Why would they make ACs unblockable?! That just seems… stupid.

It has always been like that. AC’s should not be blockable, they should just deal reasonable damage and apply pressure to groups. You know, what they did before this ’’gamebreak patch".

Imagine AC being classified as projectiles. 1 Feedback would blow it up, you would have to be careful not to hit a wall of reflection or an engi. And so many skills would stop it completely. That would be broken as well.

I’m probably just looking at this from the wrong angle. I mean, if your troops were being rained on by arrows, wouldn’t the first thing you do to protect yourselves is put up a shield wall/ turtle shell formation/phalanx/etc?

While it may be sound gameplay wise, my inner medieval warfare enthusiast just wants to scream “WHY IS THE MAGIC SHIELD WALL (Sanctuary) NOT STOPPING THE ARROWS?!?!?”

Honestly, after playing in WvW since the update, its turned into whoever-has-the-keep/garrison/tower first wins it for the week. This hasn’t really fixed anything unless they were wanting to turn people away from WvW. Small groups can barely take camps if they are already sieged up with arrow carts. If anything, they promoted the idea of zergs in WvW due to having the needed man power to take camps and towers. The fact that golems, rams, and catapults are now almost rendered useless was a bad decision. It doesn’t matter how much your team tries to buff them from the arrow carts, you’ll get rolled over by the rest of their group. Last night, the other two servers were out manned and we still couldn’t take a tower let alone a keep. We tried so many different tactics and we still died. It doesn’t take much to defend towers/keeps/garrisons now, even if you are out manned. If they were wanting to fix something in WvW, they should have focused on upgrades for camps/towers/keeps/garrisons or adding more player slots to how many can log into WvW, not making one of the cheapest pieces of siege ungodly over powered. If anyone thinks this was a great idea, they more than likely have something already fortified like heck with arrow carts so that during their server’s off hours, they can hold it down with the lack of able players. They need to change it back and come up with another idea before they lose more players.

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Jski.6180:

Well this is more of a question of what the AC can and cant hit. If you have a cart behind a door you cant hit any thing but what is right on that door. You can hit the door with ram that are not right on the door. As for the other places to put carts you can hit things right out side of that door if they are on the walls but being on the walls make them hittable by any aoe (i guess gurdian aoe is a bit small to hit it but it should land from time to time).

Also there are more then just Ele’s DT whom can hit things that they cant see its just not well known info.

Why do you keep moving the goal posts?

Borlis has used specific positions of the back lip of the wall to place carts such that your “throw all the AOE on the wall” method fails. This is possible – we’ve even made their commanders rage over our use of DT to stop it. How many people out of that 50 are a. knowledgeable about stopping it, and b. have the means to stop it?

No i am saying the same thing over and over as for goal post moving i am not sure why you see that.
And where is this position? If you cant see it you cant make the arrow cart hit it. The weapon it self dose not need line of sight but the player DOSE need to be able to see it. Now if they are using a glitch or a program to let them zoom out more then they should they are exploiting the game and braking down the balance of the AC and truly of WvW over all.
If the commander or the leader of that group know what they are doing then the group will do well it dose not matter what the group over all knows. If the commander or leader dose not know what they are doing then the group will do bad. That how it should work number alone should not win you any thing.

graverr.6473:

Jski.6180:

Last point mainly so adding in a 30 sec lag time for under attk harms small scale teams? Your cherry picking parts of this patch for your point of view. If you hatted AC before the patch then your going to hate them after. This is just some evidences that ppl have been waiting for to kittenhis weapon (all be it very bad evidences with one video and a lot of hear say and pic of ppl putting up arrow carts).
The truth is ppl have wanted AC removed from WvW for a long time but these same ppl want all things removed from WvW they just want an open pvp game. They are trying to forces GW2 into something that THEY want and that the community dose NOT want

Ever heard of scouts ? I know at least 5 servers that constantly have 2 or 3 people inside ANY tower and that was prepatch.Argument cannot stand.

It dose stand because the 30 sec trick dose not harm the small man group it harms the zerg size group. Just because ppl can deal with it or not dose not changes the fact of what its aimed at.

PinCushion.7390:

Long Answer = It’s harder, doesn’t always work, can be countered, takes longer, and doesn’t make for Epic PVP moments (which bores lots of people, apparently).

Epic PvP requires an attacker and a defender.

Zerging over a target because the defending scouts have no method of even slowing you down is not “epic”.

Epic is building catapults, trebuchets and having to defend them for 15 minutes while knocking down walls.

.

At least “siege wars” is PvP. “Zerg wars” is PvDoor with the zergs often having no chance or reason to collide.

graverr.6473:

Defenders should ubstantial advantage YES.And that they already have for being covered by walls and having the tactical higher ground advantage + suply stack.

The rest of your post is probably brilliant, but I got hung up on this line. It has already been clearly and amply explained that;

1- PRE-PATCH, attackers could destroy any siege weapon simply by stacking in one spot and spamming AoE skills. The only way to defend was to have equal or better numbers and actually LEAVE the keep…the thing that’s supposed to be giving you an advantage.

2- PRE-PATCH, defenders standing on the wall were utterly useless. Bad coding makes it so that you can’t even shoot back at the people who are shooting YOU!! Do you get this? Do you understand this at all? You’re killing me from below, and the game says I can’t shoot you in the face with my rifle because manatees. That point isn’t even debateable, is it? Massed defenders standing on the wall are lining up to be converted into bags. Period.

3-POST-PATCH, attackers can still AoE down siege weaponry, and they can still yank defenders from the wall, and kill them on the wall. The only difference is that now, attackers WILL get killed and hurt some in the process, instead of typing “zzzzzzz…” in map chat while waiting for the gate to inevitably come down.

So please, explain to me how the walls and the height advantage were useful to the pre-patch defenders when being on said walls meant you couldn’t attack (bad coding), and couldn’t defend (all siege destroyed by stacked and invulnerable zergs).

Jski.6180:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Jski.6180:

Well this is more of a question of what the AC can and cant hit. If you have a cart behind a door you cant hit any thing but what is right on that door. You can hit the door with ram that are not right on the door. As for the other places to put carts you can hit things right out side of that door if they are on the walls but being on the walls make them hittable by any aoe (i guess gurdian aoe is a bit small to hit it but it should land from time to time).

Also there are more then just Ele’s DT whom can hit things that they cant see its just not well known info.

Why do you keep moving the goal posts?

Borlis has used specific positions of the back lip of the wall to place carts such that your “throw all the AOE on the wall” method fails. This is possible – we’ve even made their commanders rage over our use of DT to stop it. How many people out of that 50 are a. knowledgeable about stopping it, and b. have the means to stop it?

No i am saying the same thing over and over as for goal post moving i am not sure why you see that.
And where is this position? If you cant see it you cant make the arrow cart hit it. The weapon it self dose not need line of sight but the player DOSE need to be able to see it. Now if they are using a glitch or a program to let them zoom out more then they should they are exploiting the game and braking down the balance of the AC and truly of WvW over all.
If the commander or the leader of that group know what they are doing then the group will do well it dose not matter what the group over all knows. If the commander or leader dose not know what they are doing then the group will do bad. That how it should work number alone should not win you any thing.

There is quite a few of them where you can be safe from most things, though you have to angle your camera a bit funny and not assume that you can only hit the center of your screen and/or ahve to see the entire targeting area of your AC.

And I assure you this is without zoomhack

Jski.6180:

graverr.6473:

Jski.6180:

Last point mainly so adding in a 30 sec lag time for under attk harms small scale teams? Your cherry picking parts of this patch for your point of view. If you hatted AC before the patch then your going to hate them after. This is just some evidences that ppl have been waiting for to kittenhis weapon (all be it very bad evidences with one video and a lot of hear say and pic of ppl putting up arrow carts).
The truth is ppl have wanted AC removed from WvW for a long time but these same ppl want all things removed from WvW they just want an open pvp game. They are trying to forces GW2 into something that THEY want and that the community dose NOT want

Ever heard of scouts ? I know at least 5 servers that constantly have 2 or 3 people inside ANY tower and that was prepatch.Argument cannot stand.

It dose stand because the 30 sec trick dose not harm the small man group it harms the zerg size group. Just because ppl can deal with it or not dose not changes the fact of what its aimed at.

???

So a small group can magically cap a tower/keep faster than a small group therefore small group = advantage over zerg ? I am amazed but AC defender replies .I really am.

FractalChaos.6539:

graverr.6473:

Defenders should ubstantial advantage YES.And that they already have for being covered by walls and having the tactical higher ground advantage + suply stack.

The rest of your post is probably brilliant, but I got hung up on this line. It has already been clearly and amply explained that;

1- PRE-PATCH, attackers could destroy any siege weapon simply by stacking in one spot and spamming AoE skills. The only way to defend was to have equal or better numbers and actually LEAVE the keep…the thing that’s supposed to be giving you an advantage.

2- PRE-PATCH, defenders standing on the wall were utterly useless. Bad coding makes it so that you can’t even shoot back at the people who are shooting YOU!! Do you get this? Do you understand this at all? You’re killing me from below, and the game says I can’t shoot you in the face with my rifle because manatees. That point isn’t even debateable, is it? Massed defenders standing on the wall are lining up to be converted into bags. Period.

3-POST-PATCH, attackers can still AoE down siege weaponry, and they can still yank defenders from the wall, and kill them on the wall. The only difference is that now, attackers WILL get killed and hurt some in the process, instead of typing “zzzzzzz…” in map chat while waiting for the gate to inevitably come down.

So please, explain to me how the walls and the height advantage were useful to the pre-patch defenders when being on said walls meant you couldn’t attack (bad coding), and couldn’t defend (all siege destroyed by stacked and invulnerable zergs).

Sorry but i have to strongly disagree.There are available many siege spots available inside a tower/keep that are unable to get destroyed by any aoe from outside of it,including counter acs and trebs plus anything in between and since we talk about acs ,all of them can target the gates or outside of them..Smart placed siege especially arrowcarts can be safe and attack the gate at 100% safety and that is a fact.The majority of players being obscured of these spots is not exactly making them any less available or strategicly advantaged.