Guild Wars 2

Roven Leafsong.8917:

I would also note that the two dominant Mesmer gameplay styles (PvE) at the moment would seem to be either minion-bomber (shatter) or minion-master (clones/phantasms), and while you generally have to choose to focus on only one of them, you can certainly sometimes make use of the other style at need.

Personally, I wonder what the profession would feel like if the core mechanic brought new and clearly beneficial options – independent of the right trait combination or build style. An exchange mechanic that trades illusions for slightly larger numbers (provided you build and time it correctly) is only as good as the conversion equation, and yet it is so heavily influenced by traits and statistics that it is usually stacked one way or the other well before combat begins.

If I can ask, do you see that from my perspective as someone who would like to be using illusions to manipulate, harm and deceive opponents, the idea of constantly shredding all illusions that would otherwise be confusing or debilitating my opponent (or supporting me or my allies) is less satisfying? That I accept that doing so could very well produce a small DPS boost or defensive window if timed and traited accordingly, but that it makes me feel like more of a minion management profession than an illusionist?

Jumping in here – I completely agree with you. You’ve very clearly expressed an opinion that I share. I tried to elaborate on some of these points in another thread, but you’ve said it better than I was able to.

I won’t restate my opinion in this thread, but I’d appreciate it if you’d take a look at this one and let me know what you think of my suggestions on this subject
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Mesmers-The-Epitome-of-Bad-Design/first#post241755

squiggit.2357:

Seems like this thread has a bad case of people throwing around “bad design” to try to put weight behind arguments when most of the stuff they’re complaining about is preferential.

Ignoring for a moment that that’s not entirely true, why is it a bad thing to be able to specialize?

It’s only bad if it takes away the decision altogether, as the whole point of having a tradeoff is to make a player choose between different options in different situations. If you completely take away choice, it becomes a wasted mechanic. If that occurs, it is definitely bad design, regardless of preference.

That said, another poster showed me that even in builds that specialise, it doesn’t take away the need to choose. So in this case, I was wrong to call it bad design, as the above situation does not occur here

Not sure why you don’t think Mesmers are “summoners” when the core mechanic of the class is summoning minions.

But that’s just it, thematically we create illusions, not summon minions. There’s a distinct mechanical difference between the two. Is that preferential? I guess it is, and you’re right that I should clarify more that what I’m saying is my own opinion. But I firmly believe that Mesmers are not summoners and shouldn’t play like summoners.

Terrant.2903:

I strongly disagree. I se your point, but it only works on paper. I for instance have a build which relies on Phantasms for damage. Does that means I never shatter? I’m not spamming shatter on CD like a Shatter-centric build does, but I’m making use of it. All three phantasms up? Let em do some damage…hey the cooldowns are gone…Shatter em for an extra burst of damage, make more.

Mob/player about to eat me, outta defensive abilities…quick! Shatter for a distortion/daze.

Traiting affects how OFTEN you Shatter, but you should still be using it when the situation arises to need it.

OK, I accept this. I do still feel that traits cause you to lean too heavily one way or the other, but that is just my personal opinion.

Holding aside the fact there is no GCD as such….not sure I follow. You’re saying that the casting time of a Phantasm essentially means you aren’t doing anything while it’s going. OK. But I lost you after that. I think you’re saying you want illusion/player behaviour to match better so as to add to the deceptive factor of illusions? Is that right?

When you activate Phantasmal Duelist, for example, all that you do is summon a Phantasm. Your character performs no action – the only thing that actually does something is the phantasm. This is intentional, but it’s poor design to have your character do nothing every time you summon a phantasm (and it occurs this way with some illusion abilities too).

Mechanically and thematically, I would argue it would work much better for your character to also perform that action – i.e. If you use Pistol #4, then you unload your pistol on your target, summoning a Phantasm that simultaneously performs the same action. Your Phantasm still persists, continuing to perform that action intermittently as usual, but it makes the initial summon more active. What do you think about that idea?

I think this varies heavily on build and/or personal philosophy. I am a sword+pistol/GS Mesmer. I see myself as a provider of heavy direct damage at all ranges, with some minor aoe ability. Much of this damage comes from me (Blurred Frenzy, Mind Stab, Mirror Blade, GS #3 whose name I somehow forgot…). In addition, I have a number of crowd control utilities (Illusory Wave, Magic Bullet, Signet of Dom, Moa), and on top of that I gain a bunch of semi-autonomous constructs (not pets, because there’s no real control of them) that can be used for a number of different functions dependant on situation. My Phantasms are a supplment to my skills, not a replacement.

See, your description of Phantasms is essentially as a semi-mobile version of turrets. Yes, I agree that the other abilities and functions that you list are great, and they’re exactly what I love about the Mesmer. But I often feel far more like a pet class than a caster class – that I get far more effectiveness out of my Phantasms than a lot of my other abilities.

The more I describe it, the more evident it becomes that my argument is entirely just my own opinion, but hear me out. If you were to make a profession that summoned spirits that haunted the target, they would be largely uncontrollable, make up a heavy portion of your damage and you would have ways of expending said spirits for additional effects. That, to me, is exactly how a Mesmer feels (with additional utility abilities to round it out). I feel like I’m summoning spirits, not creating illusions. There is a level of interactivity that is missing.

I won’t necessarily disagree with your sentiment, but I think your arguments are a bit too focused on specific builds and not indicative of Mesmer performance overall.

You’ve brought up really good points, and your criticism is very constructive. It’s true that my argument is particularly applicable for Phantasm-centric builds, but I don’t feel it’s the only build that this is true for. I genuinely feel there is a design issue underlying a couple of features that needs more than just a numbers fix.
I do try to argue logically but in the end it is all my opinion, so thanks for the feedback

“The epitome of bad design” is too strong, but Mesmers do have multiple design flaws. Namely:

- Shattering vs Keeping Illusions.
This decision is designed to have the player choose between which is better in a particular situation (a good mechanic), but is completely undermined by having to choose between the two when traiting. Once you’ve traited towards one or the other, you’re so heavily weighted towards your choice that there is no longer a decision to make.

- Inactive Illusion abilities
Your character performs no action for a full GCD when you summon a Phantasm or use several Illusion abilities (first activation of Illusionairy Leap). This is genuinely a poor design decision. Your character should perform that action as well as the Illusion (upon activating the skill – further illusion attacks would then be like an echo of the action). This would also shift power back to the player and away from the Phantasms themselves.

- Phantasms feel like pets
We’re not a pet class, but Phantasms play as if they are pets or turrets. It’s no fun to have so much of our damage come from Phantasms when we’re not really supposed to be a “summoner”.

The OP exaggerates heavily, and focuses on the wrong issue. Clones not genuinely imitating the player is a visual issue, and doesn’t make for poor design in and of itself. But the Mesmer does have several design issues that require more than just tweaking numbers.

Bump for feedback. I really feel the Offhand Axe lacks purpose for the Ranger. My proposal would make it’s role much clearer and more effective, but I’m interested to hear what people think/what other suggestions you’d put forward.

Bump for feedback! I really believe this is something that would alleviate a lot of the frustration for both people playing as and playing against a Mesmer.

But that’s the point. The general idea of adding more profession variety is to fulfill the distinct archetypes that players want to play as. How different is a warlock compared to a necromancer? You mention Curses (by which I would infer DoT abilities) and Pets – both of which are available to a Necro already. They don’t feel like different classes.

A Battle Mage does though. Being able to wade into the thick of battle wearing heavy armor and a sword whilst casting arcane spells is very different to how any current professions feel or play, with a lot of potential playstyles and weapon options that would all add further variation.

You should look at Archetypes far more than playstyles. A weapon can provide a playstyle, a whole Profession isn’t needed for that. Battle Mage, for example, is great – if you describe it as a Heavily armored caster, rather than just uses shields and shotgun style spells.

Plus, some of your suggestions are already in game. Templar? That’s a guardian almost exactly. Berserker? Dual sword warrior has that covered. Slayer? They tried “Higher the meter, the higher your damage” with Warriors during beta. All it did was disincentive the use of Burst skills. Saboteur? Play a bomb kit Engineer.

I don’t think Samurai would fill enough of a gap – culturally they feel different, but in terms of playstyle, it would be difficult to carve out a niche next to the Warrior.

Monk, though, is very much a unique archetype and unfufilled role. As long as they were kept as mechanically distinct from Guardians and Thieves as possible, they would be a great addition.

Phantasm-summoning abilities should also perform an action. This could be by default, or a potential Grandmaster trait.

Phantasm-summoning skills take up a global cooldown, during which time your character is doing nothing. Pausing your attacks like this really takes away from the flow of combat, and it doesn’t feel fun to spend this time being voluntarily inactive.

Instead of Phantasm abilities just being summons, it would be much more fun to perform the action yourself simultaneously with your phantasm. For example Pistol #4, Phantasmal Duelist, would unload your pistol on your foe as well as creating a Phantasm that performs the same action. Currently, it feels like you barely use your pistol, as only one ability actually lets you shoot it. Who brings a gun and never shoots it? Having you unload on your target just like your phantasm does when you first summon it would be far more fun!

This should be the case for all phantasms – the initial activation should have you complete the action that the phantasm performs when you summon it. This would make it more visually appealing, it would keep the player active, it would shift the power away from the phantasm and more towards the player and you would still retain the phantasm at the end of it, performing an echo of the action that you yourself performed. It would feel far more like an illusion, and far less like a summon.

As long as power resides so heavily with phantasms and away from the Mesmer itself, this class will not be as fun to play as it should be. By giving an active effect to phantasm-creating abilities the Mesmer becomes a more rewarding, interactive class.

That’s true, it would need to be tested. However, the Axe #4 needs something to make it more useful than it currently is, and this synergizes very well with both Axe #5 and non-traited traps.

I wouldn’t anticipate it tests as overly powerful. Thieves and Necros both have similar abilities, and the Guardian has an AoE 600 range version of this ability.

The #4 ability is really only effective as a projectile finisher. It’s a total throwaway skill outside of that. For this reason, I would propose that it works like the Chieftain’s axe does – that it pulls in enemies hit on the return flight. This would give it a lot more synergy with other abilities, such as pulling enemies into traps or grouping mobs for AoEing with #5.

+1 to Onoz. Having the first skill as the only leap in the chain would help immensely.

Out of left field – what about reducing shatters down from four skills to two, with the other two effects becoming traitable? The traits themselves would need to be more powerful than they currently are, but it would make shattering builds more viable and easier to use.

F1 – Mind Wrack
F2 – Diversion

Traits:
- Shattering illusions applies Confusion (3/5/7 stacks for 5s)
- Shattering illusions gives you Distortion (2/3/4s)

Take power away from Phantasms and put it into other areas. I think his suggestions are less about making the Mesmer a pet class and more about how the only role Phantasms currently play is that of being pets. Their utility is minimal, where it should be exceptional.

Phantasms should not be a primary source of damage for us. As the poster above said, we’re not a pet class, yet it feels like we’re far too reliant on our illusion-pets to be effective. I think phantasm-summoning skills should be actives – that your character should perform the action as well as the phantasm when you first summon them. I started another thread with this idea, but I feel phantasms are the core issue, not shatters.

I feel like the offhand axe lacks purpose.

The #5 ability would be great if it continuously counted as a Whirl finisher, rather than just on it’s activation, as the ability to do damage and stack vulnerability is fantastic in PvE. However, being immobile makes it a poor PvP skill.

The #4 ability is really only effective as a projectile finisher. It’s a total throwaway skill outside of that. For this reason, I would propose that it works like the Chieftain’s axe does – that it pulls in enemies hit on the return flight. This would give it a lot more synergy with other abilities, such as pulling enemies into traps or grouping mobs for AoEing with #5.

Opinions?

Phantasm-summoning skills take up a global cooldown, during which time your character is doing nothing. Pausing your attacks like this really takes away from the flow of combat, and it doesn’t feel fun to spend this time being voluntarily inactive.

Instead of Phantasm abilities just being summons, it would be much more fun to perform the action yourself simultaneously with your phantasm. For example Pistol #4, Phantasmal Duelist, would unload your pistol on your foe as well as creating a Phantasm that performs the same action. Currently, it feels like you barely use your pistol, as only one ability actually lets you shoot it. Who brings a gun and never shoots it? Having you unload on your target just like your phantasm does when you first summon it would be far more fun!

This should be the case for all phantasms – the initial activation should have you complete the action that the phantasm performs when you summon it. This would make it more visually appealing, it would keep the player active, it would shift the power away from the phantasm and more towards the player and you would still retain the phantasm at the end of it, performing an echo of the action that you yourself performed. It would feel far more like an illusion, and far less like a summon.

As long as power resides so heavily with phantasms and away from the Mesmer itself, this class will not be as fun to play as it should be. By giving an active effect to phantasm-creating abilities the Mesmer becomes a more rewarding, interactive class.

Opinions?

That was a good read. I agree with you on most points – I’ve never been a shatter fan from a thematic perspective, but mechanically it seemed to work on paper. Yet what you say about the trait system in particular is dead on – the active decision a player should face between shattering and maintaining their illusions is completely undermined by how traiting requires you to choose one or the other and follow it completely.