Guild Wars 2

Yes but one fight is more saying when def setups fought against each other than berserker setups.
Just because 1 soldier fights takes like 3 times+ as long…

Sorry I thought you figured it already out that that statement makes no sense.

What do you think would have happened if both would have worn soldier in such a situation? Probably not 80→0% someone with 1-2 lucky hits.
That’s the difference.

hooma.9642:

how about math and not skill? a bunker cant kill a bunker cause missing skill, no cause its mathematical not possible that he outdmg his heal. no matter how many luck is involved or not.

def setup does not mean full bunker. Soldier amulet is quite defensive but it’s not unkillable (even not in a 1on1) and you also can kill stuff with soldier (just takes longer than with berzerker).

hooma.9642:

and regarding your other answer, that luck is outbalancing over time, well that would be the exact same case if 2 zerkers jump on each other.

Are you kidding me?
You wrote yourself: „luck is outbalancing over time“. Now guess what does a fight between 2 zerker players does not have a lot, compared to a fight between 2 soldier players.
Answer: Time!

Vargamonth.2047:

If you make two players running the same spec to face each other, yes, it’s obvious that the more defensive that spec is, the better for the best of both players (since the loser will be decided by accumulating a higher amount of mistakes than when using an offensive spec).

Has nothing to do with same spec – it’s just in generall more def = less luck involved.
This also means that in a fight between 1gc vs 1 def setup, there is less luck invovled than between 2gc but still more than in a fight between 2 def setup players.

Vargamonth.2047:

This has nothing to do, however, with “good” players prefering defensive gear.
A single duel between mirrored characters that can kill AND can’t run from each other is something completely unrealistic.

I understand that this thread is not easy to understand when you started playing with GW2 and all you did was point capture mode.
But in any scenario where you can’t just disengage and cap some other point —> called deathmatch, found in every other game and also in GW2 (2v2 tournaments —> if you leave the graveyard area you’re being disquallified), a fight where you have to stay in combat is nothing unrealistic at all.

And now I have something special for everyone saying that playing berzerker(off setup) has (almost) nothing to do with luck and everything is skill.

http://www.twitch.tv/phantaram/b/501216875?t=333m40s
[this is really not supposed to flame phantaram or something like this – I think he is one of the top players – this is just a too good example to let it pass though]

As you can see, the thief was at 80%+ hp cause he healed himself + mug heal. Phant is already saying that he is chanceless but he kills him and is not even 100% sure how:
“I’m so good, my phoenix got him I guess”
After the match he also says:
“my phoenix must have hit him perfectly”
“I got so lucky”

At everyone who is going to say „skill here skill there“ – just no. Phant admitts himself that he got extremly lucky. Throwing AoEs somewhere hoping they hit and crit etc is not skill.

Of course Xeph is not replying in ts/skype/mumble since he wrote pretty much the opposite in this thread not long ago saying that this makes no sense at all etc…
Even though this 1v1 is like a summary of this entire thread.

Vuh.1328:

So this thread is basicly about how much “harder” a non effective/bad defensive build is to play vs a build optimized for the gametype is to play?

No, I never said that one build is harder to play than the other when you compare everything.
I said it’s harder for a def setup to kill a bunker than it’s for an off setup but you can still manage to do it with skill.
I also said it’s harder for an off setup to survive but you can still survive when you have enough skill.
BUT:
If you mess up something and get hit with an off build (which everyone does except Xeph who never gets hit —> except when he plays against a thief) you will die very easily.
If you mess up with a def setup (which you do except you play like a god etc) you didn’t kill your enemy. But you didn’t die!

Vuh.1328:

Defensive build: Harder to kill something since it’s just don’t have the offensive power and if the main burst/whatever is dodged you do no damage but you can easier survive if you position yourself bad/dodge badly

Offensive build: Can just be as hard to kill something if the main burst/whatever is evaded but also ALOT harder to survive with since it punishes bad positioning and bad dodgeing alot more

In general that’s true with the exception that:
actually off setups have also higher sustained than def setup. So if an off setup misses his burst he will still have an easier time killing something than a def setup who misses his burst.

Avead.5760:

Ceraldor.3160:

OneManArmy.9732:

when I am playing bunker cantrip d/d ele and have lag spike I think “pff whatever, keep faceroll”
when I am playing fresh air full burst and have lag spike I am pressing alt-tab to read some news/check mail/open new playlist.

there is no skill in bunker/condi play. no. not a little. no skill, just faceroll, unless you are guardian 1v3

So what would your answer be to the question:
With which build is it easier for you to kill a bunker guard? With your fresh air full burst ele or with your cantrip d/d ele?
I mean “how much def” can the guard go, before it becomes impossible for you and your skill-level to kill this guard with the off spec compared to the def spec?

You dont get it..The answer is simple.The d/d build cant kill a guard ..regardless of skill level.This isnt a game were by defense we mean just more hp to burn before going down!
Its so easy to outsustain someone.And there are builds that not only outsustain a huge variety of other potential builds ( some can like outsustain all non zerker power builds) but also do damage to be a threat to a huge amount of builds aswell.
You oversimply things so much.You dont take into account resets,healing,downed states and rezzes,teamfights and ability to soak up pressure/difficulty of executing your part to do damage..
Defensive builds in your mind are probably something entirely different to what everyone else is talking about..Its like you are talking about some other game.

I think what you were trying to say was:

My cantrip ele can only kill a guard, who:
invested nearly nothing in defense. It’s too hard for me to kill the guard if he wears something else than a berzerker amulet.

However my fresh air ele can kill a guard, who:
invested about 80% in defense. If I get some nice crits I can even kill a 0/0/30/10/30 shaman guard!
[or something like that]

Now to your
“Defensive builds in your mind are probably something entirely different to what everyone else is talking about”

Read first post:

Ceraldor.3160:

Important!!!:
This always leads into top groups going as defensive as possible while still be able to kill the enemy with good coordination of burst and CC. I am not saying top teams are going full bunker in every game! I will write it again:
Top teams always go as defensive as possible WHILE still be able to kill the enemy team „with skill“.

So again:
A well played soldier venom share thief is able to kill a “bunerish” ranger for example with good use of his venom leech dmg and when headshotting his heal.
But he will have a hard time against a full bunker guard. However if just one bunker (like his own guard) is beating on this enemy bunker guard at the same time, they will kill him cause 2* unmitigable leeching venom damage is just too much (<— this is a very simple example of what I was refering to as good team coordination/ team play)

And yes – a soldier venom thief is not a “full bunker”. But I hope you agree with me when I say that such a thief has def setup compared to a berzerker bs thief.

Malcastus.6240:

Why bother arguing with someone that acts elitist and insults you to boot for no good reason? If OPs agenda truly is to theory craft and create a discussion, he is doing a very poor job.

/abandonpointlessthread

That’s not true.
But in my opinion someone who makes a “flamy” post should not be surprised if he gets a “flamy” response.
And yes, if someone is just sooo much wrong I think/hope he is being it on purpose, which does make me a little angry.^^

OneManArmy.9732:

when I am playing bunker cantrip d/d ele and have lag spike I think “pff whatever, keep faceroll”
when I am playing fresh air full burst and have lag spike I am pressing alt-tab to read some news/check mail/open new playlist.

there is no skill in bunker/condi play. no. not a little. no skill, just faceroll, unless you are guardian 1v3

So what would your answer be to the question:
With which build is it easier for you to kill a bunker guard? With your fresh air full burst ele or with your cantrip d/d ele?
I mean “how much def” can the guard go, before it becomes impossible for you and your skill-level to kill this guard with the off spec compared to the def spec?

Marsares.2053:

Reesha.7901:

Slim.3024:

Reesha.7901:

Slim.3024:

I hope this isn’t a bug, ‘cause it didn’t make much sense for them to instantly attack a stealthed player when he came out of stealth, before the mesmer even realized where the stealthed player was to begin with either.

None of the tooltips suggest that illusions come outfitted with the most advanced satellites and tracking devices of any sort.

So, if your opponent stealth, you should loose 90% your damage and defense. Mmmmm, nope, I really don’t think that is an idea you would like to see implemented to your own class.

But it’s fine that you can cast phantasms and clones without being affected by evades or blocks and that they always know where the player is instantly. Clones and phantasm in this game are smarter than the actual player and can not be juked.

Is that fine?

You can blind the cast of the phantasm and you can evade or block the actual attack.

This is not a topic regarding what you do not like about Mesmer.
This is not a topic regarding what you would like to see changed.
This is a topic about a bug that cripples Mesmer, against any opponent that has stealth.

+1

Players complaining about being beaten by horrible AI says a lot about their own intelligence.

Players complaining about not getting carried by AI in 100% of all scenarios anymore says a lot about their own intelligence.

Pyriall.5027:

Ceraldor.3160:

Pyriall.5027:

Play hambow soldiers…look how much more skillful you become. I don’t even pay attention to what I’m doing. Two people on point? I just go in trucking…Play zerker anything and that’s not happening.

Please quote me where I said that berserker needs more or less skill than soldier!

When you made the statement that only bads play zerker, you insinuate there is more skill playing the opposite.

This – right this shows me that you have not understand one word you have read, which is honestly a little sad.
I wrote “Bad players prefer playing berzerker” – explanation: it gives them a chance to win against better players.
Here are some quotes from my very first post in this thread which you have to read very slowly and after you have read them a second or, even better, third time please spend at least 3 hours to understand them and then (only then) you can come back to apologize:

Ceraldor.3160:

Let’s have a look at the differences between an off and a def setup:
pros for def:
-more survivabilty
-easier to recover

pros for off:
-higher burst with less cd
-higher sustain

Ceraldor.3160:

If you want an example just take the normal berzerker backstab thief compared to a soldier/venom thief.
The soldier/venom thief only has medium burst every ~30s when activating his leeching venoms. But his survivabilty is of course much higher due to more def stats and more healing (leeching venoms).

Ceraldor.3160:

Why do people think it’s harder to player the zerker thief than the soldier thief? Because you die much faster!

Ceraldor.3160:

In conclusion:
So going for a defensive setup vs offensive setup is „having the risk of not being able to kill someone but getting rewarded by living longer“ vs „having the risk of dying very easy but getting rewarded by killing very fast and easy.“

So in my very first post you can find me at least 4 times saying that it’s harder to survive with an off setup compared to a def setup.
What I’m saying is, that at the same time it’s much easier for someone with 3000 attack, 50%+ crit chance und 100% crit damage to kill a bunker than it is for a bunker guardian to kill a bunker.
I really hope you agree with me on this point or are you going to say that you see all them bunker guards killing stuff 24/7?

Aereniel.7356:

Ceraldor.3160:

It’s much safer to play defensive if you are the better player! Bad luck will have a much less impact on defensive players. So if the defensive player is already winning, the chance that bad luck will make him lose is much lesser than when he would go for an offensive setup.

So what you are saying is that defensive specs are more tolerant in terms of RNG, hence it’s preferable to gravitate towards them. In essence, defensive setups are (say it with me now) more forgiving. Has it really taken you this entire thread to state the obvious?

Yes def setups are more forgiving when it comes to taking damage. I said that already in my initial post.
But off setups are much more forgiving when it comes to downing an enemy. If they mess up their burst, they will have the next burst much faster than a def setup player. Also the bursts are much higher from off setup players.
Again: I never said that either – def or off – is more forgiving than the other when you look at it from both sides.

Ceraldor.3160:

A good player will try to minimize the luck involved in a match since he would be winning if no luck at all is taken into account. This “luck minimization” is done by going for a more defensive setup.
A bad player needs the advantage luck may give him so he will strive for a more offensive setup.

Aereniel.7356:

Speaking of GW2 specifically, my personal observations are pretty much the exact opposite. Weaker players tend to pick tankier condition specs, because such specs tolerate more errors in skill use, positioning and timing than glass cannon specs. A weak player can still be marginally effective running a tanky defensive spec, while he/she would be totally ineffective running a glass spec. The risk vs. reward in tanky specs is more attractive to weaker players. But Xeph already went over all of this, and he did it with much more patience and expertise than I can muster.

1. I said now already 10 times that stuff like cond dmg, minion builds etc are not balanced in terms of an off / def ratio.
2. I also said that you need gc in gw2 because it’s conquest. And yes, a bad player can do much more with a tanky setup in conquest mode. (someone who just uses arrow keys and #1 can at least stall for while).
However, this is not the case when we are talking about even fights to death!

@ Curunen.8729 and Slim.3024
Thanks so much for letting me see that at least some players do understand the purpose of this thread!
And yes – things are “not as clear” in game as they are in theory.
Stuff like cond dmg, pet builds etc allow players to be good in offense and defense at the same time. And also simple mechanics such as stealth and invulnerability will lead to different results in game.
However, you have to understand the theory in order to make adjustments coming from unbalanced builds/skills/stats/mechanics etc.

Pyriall.5027:

Play hambow soldiers…look how much more skillful you become. I don’t even pay attention to what I’m doing. Two people on point? I just go in trucking…Play zerker anything and that’s not happening.

Please quote me where I said that berserker needs more or less skill than soldier!

Of course I apologise if I am coming off as rude; but:

Xeph.4513:

I have never lost a match in this game; and thought to myself gosh if that guy didn’t crit me so much we would’ve won the game, yeah sorry team I got out rng’d.

So you are seriously saying that you never were about to burst someone but then the other guy does a dodge roll just because his energy is at 100% and you mess up your burst and you never thought „what a lucky dodge roll“? Who do you try to be kidding here?

Xeph.4513:

Truth of the matter is, there is always something you can do to prevent this from happening; getting caught in a burst is mostly through the players own error, maybe I over extended to secure a kill. I can look back on those numbers and think if he didn’t crit me so many times in the burst maybe I would’ve survived it, or I could view it as me making a mistake which got me caught in a bad position and overall caused me to die. This also breeds better players, and a better train of thought, over just assuming you lost purely due to rng; which don’t get me wrong does play a factor (You can take this in a 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3 scenario if you so wish.)

This is gold!
You are telling me that „there is always something you can do to prevent this [getting bursted etc.] from happening“ ???
I remember you very well about ¾ year ago, when you were crying like a little baby „I can’t do anything […] get this thief away from me“ in ts the second any random s/d thief would be onto you (no offense bro – ok maybe just a little).
How can someone say, that you can always prevent damage when not even a full year ago he quitted because of not being able to get away from a certain class/specc.
That just blows my mind!

The truth is, there is not always something you can do to prevent getting damaged. Because this would not only mean that you play uncountable times better than your enemy (which is arguable even possible in theory) but you also would need to be able to forsee stuff like server lag etc. (which just is literally impossible even in theory).

But for you Xeph I will try to explain everything with some more theory-crafting:

We have player A: full off setup: kills everything one hit but dyes in one burst. But he is so skilled that he just never gets hit under normal circumstances, even when a whole team tries to kill him (because he forsees every move they do).

We have player B: full def setup: never dies and has so much skill that he can time his damage and interrupts so well, that he kills every other bunker over time.

Now we are looking into best and worst case scenarios for these two players in a team fight:

Best case scenarioa:
Player A: He one hits everything with one AoE. Fight is over after 0.735 seconds.

Player B: He kills everything but needs over 3minutes! So much more time than the gc.
But I said from the beginning:

Ceraldor.3160:

Important:
The situation I’m going to talk about is an even fight X players vs X players starting from an 1v1 to “whatever-size” vs “same -whatever-size” fighting to their deaths. So basically every even team fight.

Ceraldor.3160:

This thread contain theory crafting for an even fight to death (like death match =D).

so the result is the same. The best player won and time doesn’t matter.
That time does matter in conquest is nothing new and that’s why wrote at the very top:

Ceraldor.3160:

First, I want to say that I know that every successful gw2 tpvp team needs to have a certain amount of glass cannons in their team.
However the reason for that is purely the game mode called „point capture“. The whole system in gw2 is fighting with a superior number and winning those fights as quick as possible to start a snowball effect which will lead into having a superior number in the next fight and so on.
For this reason and only this reason are glass cannons very important.

Now the worst case scenarios:

Player A: A server lag hits Player A and he messes up his blind + dodge roll to conta the other thieves burst. The other thief is critting and proccing everything so he kills our pro player A and the better player just lost his game.

Player B: Player B gets hit by a server lag. He messes up his interrupt so the enemy guard can full heal himself back to 100%. Now our pro player needs more than 5 minutes to win the fight!

The result:
It’s much safer to play defensive if you are the better player! Bad luck will have a much less impact on defensive players. So if the defensive player is already winning, the chance that bad luck will make him lose is much lesser than when he would go for an offensive setup.

Aereniel.7356:

Ceraldor.3160:

I’m honestly a little shocked that so called “pro players” are obviously overwhelmed by a little theory-crafting.

Please recognise the distinction between disagreeing and being overwhelmed. Most posters just feel that your core argument is flawed, that’s all.

With which of the two points I’m making are you disagreeing? I listed them three posts above this post.

edit: Someone is clearly overwhelmed when making a post with examples which have nothing to do with the main point of my initial post. I never said def is easier to play. I never said def is harder to play! It has a certain advantage and a certain disadvantage!

Just for clarification I will make an exmaple to my point which is still meant globally.

You can disagree on the following two points:

1. Offensive builds rely much more on luck than defensive builds.

Example: A good players duels a bad player. Both are playing the typical gc d/p thief.
To keep things simple I will say that burst = d/p #5 + #2 + bs.
Now the better player has the better reaction though he can perform his burst first. But he is not critting his hs so he gets no sigil proc for extra dmg. Result: Bad player does not drop below 50% so no 20% extra dmg for bs. —> bad players survives the burst.
Now the bad players is doing his burst but he crits his full combo which results into the death of the better player and the bad player winning even though he had the worse reaction at the start.

Now they log onto their soldier/meditations guardians. If they duel now, the first 1-3 crits have a much lesser impact on the outcome of the duel.

2. A good player wins against a bad player on even term / no luck involved
Explanation: really? just look up the defintions of a good/bad gamer!!!

Now Xehp, everyone else – with which of these 2 points are you disagreeing?

All I did at the end was to make an easy conclusion:
A good player will try to minimize the luck involved in a match since he would be winning if no luck at all is taken into account. This “luck minimization” is done by going for a more defensive setup.
A bad player needs the advantage luck may give him so he will strive for a more offensive setup.

I’m honestly a little shocked that so called “pro players” are obviously overwhelmed by a little theory-crafting.

Ceraldor.3160:

First, I want to say that I know that every successful gw2 tpvp team needs to have a certain amount of glass cannons in their team.

Since people seem to forget the start of my post when having finished it, I will quote this to maybe prevent some contra arguments which are already taken care of in the first couple sentences.

@Xeph:
You guys need to understand that I’m not talking directly to gw2 and the conquest mode but much more about XvsX fights in general.
I know that conquest has other rules than a normal fight like deathmatch.

Though since this is theory-crafting, my point is valid saying that offensive players are more dependent on luck therefor have the chance at winning against better players but at the risk of losing against worse players.

Ryan.9387:

Why did vvv lose in the GF tourney when they ran triple bunker?

The reason could be that the other time was the better team.
Again:
My point is NOT, that def is stronger.
My point is NOT, that def or off (!) is easier to play.

I said in my post that under the condition both are same effective/balanced. I wrote both have a certain risk and a certain reward. I’m just saying it is also not harder to play offensive than defensive. But I’m not saying it is the other way around!

When you take the time to read the post then please take the time to understand it. Yes the title is a little provoking – mostly to bring people in this thread.

Also please read that I said, that I’m looking at a fight not a whole match in conquest mode. I know you need certain builds in conquest due to holding a point with bunkers and killing bunkers asap (also to find at the very top).

This thread contain theory crafting for an even fight to death (like death match =D).

But at least some people seem to get the direction I’m coming from.

An offensive build is just much more luck dependent!

tarcheg.4872:

The OP is not saying class a > class b.
The OP is not even saying def > off. (he wrote: def and off stats are balanced)
Point of OP is: In a game where off and def stats are balanced, the chance that the winner of a fight is actually the better player is much higher when 2 tanky teams play compared to 2 gc fighting each other.

Thanks dude, couldn’t have said it any better – I will quote this in first post so people will understand my point much easier!

Locuz.2651:

I understand where you are coming from mister OP. Setting up kills requires more skill than two shotting someone. And ofcourse the good players will try to balance their defense and offense in a way that allows them to stay alive, while maintaining their abbilitie to kill or support or w/e their role is.

However …

In this game the tanky specs like MM necro, condi (bunker) warrior, spiritranger and such have some of the easiest rotations. They are incredibly forgiving in every way shape and form.

Yes. That is true. In this game are builds possible which give you high defense and high offense at the same time. But that’s because things like cond dmg and pets are not balanced well enough.

Everyone should see it like this:
If a fight needs 100 abilities to end – to define the winner and the loser – the chance that the better player is the winner is much higher than in a fight which is over after only 3 abilities were used.

Now everyone can think about whether the 100 abilities are used when two soldier/def setup players fight each other or if 2 berzerker/off setup players fight each other.

Ethics.4519:

This has to be sarcastic…. but you seem serious.

I have a warrior and MM bunker for when my team needs a bunker.

I have a shatter mesmer and engi on the glassy side for when my team needs DPS.

It is much, much easier to play bunker.

Case in point: Past couple of days I have had some bad lag (that whole Dallas pocket loss they are talking about I think) and have just played on my warrior the whole time. I miss earthshaker sometimes and see a quick spike in my health loss at the beginning of an encounter, but we’ve done really well.

Well, you are comparing two of the strongest builds at the moment with two rather weak builds.
You need to read the very top of my initial post. It says under the condition that off and def stats are balanced. That cond classes and AI classes have an easier time due to unbalanced cond dmg and minion dmg should be obvious. I will make no comments to warriors…

This post is theory-crafting. I understand when you guys are a little overburdened by this.

Cynz.9437:

top players play full glass thieves…

you chose wrong class as an example; i can go full tank on thief and still die instantly but do virtually no dmg

If you do no damage with a soldier thief then this example perfectly fits you. When I’m playing a venom share soldier thief, I can melt any bunker together with one of my bunkers by coordinating unmitigatable damage through the trait Leeching Venoms.
As you can see, it all comes down to coordinating and playing skillfully.
And when you die instantly with a soldier thief with leeching venoms trait you are srsly doing something wrong. But flames by side – there are actually numbers which are proving my point that soldier thieves must live longer than zerker on average – you just have to open your hero panel and look under vitality and thoughness!

thaooo.5320:

Why bad players prefer condi bunkers: because “fire and forget” builds/skills play the game for you, so you can feel great while not actually playing.

That’s why I wrote “def and off stats need to be balanced”.

Why do bad players prefer an offensive setup („full zerker only option to have fun – everything else is lame noob bs)“:

There are two reasons:
1. The obvious one: The exact opposite why good players prefer a defensive setup: Bad players need a high „luck factor“ to at least have a chance of winning. The bad player is by defintion going to lose against a good player on even terms. Only —>luck<-- scaled with a „high luck factor“ gives them from time to time the satiscfaction of winning.

2. It’s boring for bad players to play defensive! Because bad players are just not able to kill something when wearing something else than zerker. It’s sad but at the same time very true (just think about it).
Bad players are not able to coordinate their burst and CC so fights would go forever and nothing would happen.

In Conclusion:
Now I guess the statement: „Berzerker is more risk but also more rewarding“ is true afterall.

BUT: Not because because of skillful play but only because offensive setups are always carrying a much higher luck factor with them!

—> So running an offensive setup exposes everyone to a much much much higher risk of losing to a worse player/team but at the same time gives you the chance to win against a better player/team from time to time but only when luck is favouring you.

—>Even when running a defensive setup you will lose to a worse player from time to time because if he is critting and proccing everything and you are not – well than there is not much one can do.
But the chances of that happening is just so much smaller compared to running an offensive setup!

Two last things:
1. My native language is not English!
2. Let’s welcome the zerker fanboys who didn’t understand a single word they just read and have some fun together. =)

edit: Everyone should see it like this:
If a fight needs 100 abilities to end – to define the winner and the loser – the chance that the better player is the winner is much higher than in a fight which is over after only 3 abilities were used.

Why do good players/teams prefer def setups?
This is something that has happened in every MMO over time. At some point the top groups will start running more and more defensive setups.
The explantion for this is:
Why take a risk when you’re already the better player/team???

Now lets go back a step:
Every MMO has a „luck factor“. Normally such luck factors are:
1. crit luck
2. proc luck
3. even server lag is luck (someone who messes up his burst is hit much more by server lag than someone who auto attacks waiting for his cds)
4. and last but not least the luck factor especially for gw2: dodge luck!

So you may argue that dodging is no luck in a 1v1 situation, but every fight which is 2v2+ has a major luck factor. This has been admitted by several successful players every now and then. The last one I can remember was Helseth in his rant of the week about spamming. Everyone who claims he is dodging everything on purpose in team fights is being illusionary. (but it does not matter, since there are still other non negatable luck factors).

Now is the time where you, the reader, have to make one conclusion by yourself (I will still help you a little):
Offensive setup players are much much much more influenced by this luck factor than defensive setup players.
E.g.: Two glass cannons fight each other. One non crit or lucky dodge roll can obviously shift the outcome of the fight entirely from one side to the other.
On the other hand, when two defensive players are fighting each other, the impact of one single crit/non crit is much less significant.

—> I hope you agree with me on this one. If not I would suggest that you let your IQ be checked, but please expect a disappointing result.

In conclusion:
Going for an offensive setup for a top team/player will expose them to the risk of losing to a worse team/player. Top teams do not need the luck to win against other teams because there are not many teams wich would win against when no luck would be involved.

—> I always laugh a little when people say „People play def because it’s much safer, you know…“.
YES!!! It is much safer, because the chance is much higher that the better player will win! And that’s what should happen in a good and balanced game, ain’t that right? =D

Important!!!:
This always leads into top groups going as defensive as possible while still be able to kill the enemy with good coordination of burst and CC. I am not saying top teams are going full bunker in every game! I will write it again:
Top teams always go as defensive as possible WHILE still be able to kill the enemy team „with skill“.

Reason, why bad players prefer berzerker

edit:

The OP is not saying class a > class b.
The OP is not even saying def > off. (he wrote: def and off stats are balanced)
Point of OP is: In a game where off and def stats are balanced, the chance that the winner of a fight is actually the better player is much higher when 2 tanky teams play compared to 2 gc fighting each other.

First, I want to say that I know that every successful gw2 tpvp team needs to have a certain amount of glass cannons in their team.
However the reason for that is purely the game mode called „point capture“. The whole system in gw2 is fighting with a superior number and winning those fights as quick as possible to start a snowball effect which will lead into having a superior number in the next fight and so on.
For this reason and only this reason are glass cannons very important.

Now that I have this covered I’m going to explain why bad players prefer an offensive setup, top playsers instead go more for a defensive setup (regardless what game).

Important:
The situation I’m going to talk about is an even fight X players vs X players starting from an 1v1 to “whatever-size” vs “same -whatever-size” fighting to their deaths. So basically every even team fight.
In addition, off and def stats have of course to be balanced. This means that when you trade a certain amount of offensive stats you gain an equal amount of defensive stats and the other way around. So when I give up 10% dmg, I will gain 10% dmg reduction etc..

In General:
I hear people claiming that „running an offensive setup requires much more skill than having a defensive setup but at the time would be much more rewarding.“

It’s easy to show that this is obviously big bs:

Let’s have a look at the differences between an off and a def setup:
pros for def:
-more survivabilty
-easier to recover

pros for off:
-higher burst with less cd
-higher sustain

If you want an example just take the normal berzerker backstab thief compared to a soldier/venom thief.
The soldier/venom thief only has medium burst every ~30s when activating his leeching venoms. But his survivabilty is of course much higher due to more def stats and more healing (leeching venoms).

Why do people think it’s harder to player the zerker thief than the soldier thief? Because you die much faster! BUT on the other hand, every new/bad player will be able to kill something. Your damage is so high that even if you screw up your dmg rotation and interrupts you’re stilling going to kill (as long as you live).
The soldier thief however has to put much more effort to down someone – it works about like this:
1. Force the enemy to use his heal without using your „medium“ burst
2. Wait until his heal almost is off cd again (that’s when people are the most vulnerable)
3. Burst him with all you got
4. If the enemy still lives you need to interrupt their heal and finish him

You see how much more skill you need to kill someone when runing a def setup compared to going full zerker?

In conclusion:
So going for a defensive setup vs offensive setup is „having the risk of not being able to kill someone but getting rewarded by living longer“ vs „having the risk of dying very easy but getting rewarded by killing very fast and easy.“

Super can’t keep track of hotfixes. He is too busy running far.

You got a ton of gems when winning the paid tourneys so you still made much more than you had to invest.
So I don’t get your QQ.

This makes not much sense since there are utilities which are pretty crap unless you push them with a lot of traits.
A good example would be the sun spirit, which is useless if you don’t invest 2-3 traits (one tier 3 trait). If you look just at the sun spirit alone nobody would ever consider it to be a good utility. That’s why no BM ranger played with it. You need the traits.
Other utilities are op without any trait investment like portal, iol, berserker stance, syg etc.
So it always depends in when you compare utilities you should ether say the basic skill or pushed at the max.

And many elites are much better than any utility (e.g. supply crate)but that’s not what op was referring to.

felivear.1536:

I’m a huge fan of Helseth’s viewpoints. He is spot on. I remember when he got banned for speaking the truth when so many “pros” were playing apologists.

He got banned because he said he would be armed when going to the pax final.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Sounds like it’s… random.

Anet mentality:
99% of the people state they have 50%+ of the time temple (with 6 maps in the pool)

1 guy states he has lots of kyhlo games.

Anet: See we have no problem, all good!

If you are now saying that when you replied only 3 people wrote about their experience then maybe you shouldn’t reply when you haven’t played the solo queue for forming an own opinion and you should know that 3 forum posters are not a good source to “know” anything.
But since then many people replied who had too many temple games (including myself) for it to call it anywhere near even…
So maybe you are now able to realize that something got messed up.

Didn’t Anet state that we have some kind of decay if not playing for some time? If yes, it’s not working very effectively.
I am not only talking about solo q – there is a much better example if you look at the team queue ladder:
http://gwshack.info/?page=player_spvp&region=eu&username=Pekko.1573
If you chance the drop down menu from weekly to monthly, you notice that this player didn’t play at least for the last whole month (actually it’s quiet a bit more than a month). But he is still in the top 5.
How is this possible?? It’s stupid when the best way to defend your rank is by simply not playing anymore at all!
And everyone can see that the same will be happening with solo queue.
In addition people who don’t play their high rank acc anymore usually play a 2nd account which has obviously lower ranking since it gets played actively and those 2nd acc are making it harder for everyone else to gain rating. Which makes not playing the high rank acc even more rewarding.
Stupid system if you ask me and needs to be fixed asap.

-Decay should start after not playing 1 week [which top player who takes the game serious doesn’t play one whole week? Maybe 2-3 times a year when you go on vacation?^^]

-Decay should not be linear but should increase the longer you stay away. Like you lose X rating after 1 week and then again 1.5X rating after the second week…

-it would be (maybe?!) good if when playing again after a longer break, your matches count a little more so if you are still that good you can easier regain your lost rating

you need to be in the same rating area. it still works

with the difference that you could kill a warrior much easier “some time” ago which made them less “annoying” cause they were dead before they stun locked you

I think the much higher surv makes people much more aware of the potential of warriors (whatever that potential might be)…

redslion.9675:

Ceraldor.3160:

redslion.9675:

Wait a second… stun spam warriors exist since a long time. Did you find out now it is annoying to play against them (I bet before you laughed at the slow and stupid warrior with the hammer)?

I think what bothers you is the burst that follows in greatsword builds.

except that they buffed the stun durations from f1 skills and made healing signet ridiculous op…

Just 1 second for Skull Crack.

If now that most builds only run mace you feel oppressed by stuns, how could you feel against a warrior using also hammer (which could and can effectively chain bursts and stun you forever if you don’t do anything)?

Yeah, yeah, I know the story: “a passive can’t be that strong”. Seems like activating the heal has become a high risk, high reward move. I don’t think it should be compared it with other passive heals, for most of them (like altruistic healing) don’t occupy your #6 slot.

Oh, and I’d like to remind that the “war of attrition” you used to play was in fact an easy no skill victory against a warrior.

just 1s? that was a 50% buff.
in addition berserker stance is probably the most op skill in the game right now. Though I’m not saying warrior is the strongest class – for sure not. But saying warrior was always like he is now, is just not true…

redslion.9675:

Wait a second… stun spam warriors exist since a long time. Did you find out now it is annoying to play against them (I bet before you laughed at the slow and stupid warrior with the hammer)?

I think what bothers you is the burst that follows in greatsword builds.

except that they buffed the stun durations from f1 skills and made healing signet ridiculous op…

Stealth.9324:

Elixir R is fine the way it is because it is random and is not as good as it used to be. You won’t see that many Elixir R around in game. Also there are a lot of way to counter it. If you see the Enginen toss Elixir R at low Heath, either you stop heavily attacking until the effect wear off or you push him out of the effective radius and let Condition eat him away. By doing so, you make them wasted the skill. The skill also has super duper long CD 120s CD.

Spirit renewal on the other hand is 100% Rez, 30s CD, can be activated twice in one summoning with trait. And the CD start when he is summoning. There is no argue with you here that Spirit Renewal is way way better than Elixir R because there is no counter play except by killing renewal as fast as you could. Though, even so, they still get one Rez guarantee if the Ranger go down when Renewal die for some reason. You can not see where it is gonna be using his effect on, so almost there is no counter against them.

This is jut so much BS only to protect elixir r. I am not saying that the spirit rezz is weaker but elixir has so many advantages that they both (all skills which can rezz yourself) need to be nerfed.

Your argument is, that you can just wait or cc the engi out of the rezz area. When you’re such a perfect player who does this all the time, then please tell me why aren’t you able to kill the a spirit before the ranger dies? Or to kill the ranger and cc the spirit so his rezz get ruptet?
You wanna now why? Cause both are really hard to do. Some classes do not have cc – and the 1 kick may be on a kitten cd?! And the engi is not stupid – he tries to die and there are situations when you can’ t do anything against it like when the engi has many conditions. Do you suggest a cond class shouldn’t apply any conditions at ~25% engi health??
Why do you think you see so many engi rezz themselves in high rated tournament matches? You think all the top players are not good enough when it’s so easy as you try to sell here???
Both rezzes are really hard to counter but both are ruptable if you get lucky and have your appropriate skills ready. But to say only one is balanced and the other one is not just shows you’re lack of knowledge about the classes and how to counter them or you just pretend to have no clue to safe something you maybe “exploit” yourself.

Btw – other advantages of elixir r are:
-only ~100cd (cause you always skill some points into tools) vs 240s cd if you killed the spirit which you always should do asap
-many engis play with 15 in tools which make them able to have a double rezz

→ i had a 1on1 against an engi with a hybrid dps/bunker class/spec which dealt enough dmg to kill him but because it was not very fast, the engi was able to rezz himself 3 times with elixir r (I know not gonna happen in real tourny but doesn’t change the fact that it’s still possible)

But as I said – Spirit of Nature need to get nerfed as well as Elixir R. I just hate it when people use some argument (which, is in this case not even doable in 90% of the time) and just pretend the same argument would not count on the other skill they try to get nerfed.

That’s actually pretty stupid if you think about it more than 10 seconds.
You just need to get lucky with your team mates and team comp win 1 match and then you would have enough time to get everybody on some kind of voice com. and just have XX free wins.
Teams need to be randomized every match to ensure a fair fight between teams. Staying in a team which has won 3 times in a row is a 98% win chance for the next match especially in a game like gw2 where a stable teams means so much.
The ONLY WAY to do something like this, would be to match a team with 3 wins against another team with 3 wins (so it’s always X wins vs X wins) BUT you must be a dreamer if you think gw2 has enough players queuing solo to implement something like that!

Imo a team who has won could be asked to que as a 5 man team in team arena or to continue to →solo<- soloe que

solo que #1 admitted to sync – that much for the “illusion”:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Now-the-1-Solo-will-not-play-for-a-month/page/2

It’s very funny how this forum works in form of who posts what.
The op states a true fact about mesmers and instantly all the wanna-be heroes jump in with there “l2p” and “roflmao /15chars” comments. These people probably just rerolled some cond classes and are owning mesmers but in their mind it’s due to their high skill cap which leads to them being unbeatable but in no way that mesmers have some kind of issue in the current meta.
Then 1-2 known people jump in and support op (phantaram/xeph) and suddenly 95% of the “l2p” posts are gone.
Very entertaining though^^

on topic: Mesmers are getting eaten alive in the current meta. Xeph, Helseth, Supcuty (spelling? – watching 99% eu streams) all rerolled and probably many more…

SisiXuan.4178:

How about make Vit work like Power?
That when you double your current Vit you double your health pool.
It will grant those with high base hp pool class(War and Necro)massive amount of hp to compensate there lack of sustain.

???
Every class starts with the same amount of power = 916. So every class profits the same from adding a certain amount of power. It’s nothing like “some classes profit more than others” which is what you suggest with vita…

Bull Zooker.1672:

you have a point. I run carrin on my necro as I feel much more survivable than rabbid. the conditions still hurt, but theyre more manageable.

the best way to test your theory would be to duel a condition class with both set ups andsee how you get on.

Though and vita are not the only difference of these two amulets. And power is the better dmg stat for sustained damage (at least if you do not have any on crit procs) so 1on1’s wouldn’t be too crucial when you only want to test tough vs vita.

Ostricheggs.3742:

Overall, until you see compositions run more than one-two condi classes (something that will never happen until team-fight and until you see a change to how conditions work) I don’t think it’s wise to make major sacrifices for vitality…

I think EU meta is a little bit ahead since 90% of the top teams play with at least 2 cond classes (necro + engi or necro + spirit ranger). Even denial who was playing a full power comp rerolled and is playing with 2 cond classes now. So since 2 cond classes are the minimum for many teams it’s not rare seeing teams with 3 cond classes like 2 necros + 1 engi etc.
But yeah I do see still more power classes in na than eu teams but I guess that will change sooner or later as well.

Can people hear you play music in wvw? Your own at least?

A little of topic but what is the different between the Marriner’s Horn and the Flute? Because in wiki it just says that the Horn has 3 octaves and the Flute only 2 -so why take the flute over the horn?
And can people hear you in wvw?

Btw Vanish from Denial is also not allowed due to restrictions. And imo denial comes right after TP and nowadays CC.

If you wanna know why “suddenly” everyone hates conditions so much I suggest reading the first post of this thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Reasons-why-we-have-a-cond-meta/first

nothing more to add…

Med.6150:

You could have the best solution and it would be worthless, if they don’t recognize that there is in fact a problem.

qft

Sadly Anet still thinks s/d thieves are the main issue in this game. Ridiculous…

Fortus.6175:

not even insane damage to have a chance to kill people as fast as they do the same to us with a smirk in their faces

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kTf-CGZfkj4

Made my day