Guild Wars 2

agreed was fitting.

I think thanksgiving is purely an american holiday so, probably not.

I don’t get it. :/

BobJoeXXI.2493:

Merthax.5172:

Actually, I would much rather see people drop 1-start reviews on Amazon than this talk I’ve heard about people asking for refunds. Expressing discontent with a purchase is legitimate freedom of speech, asking for a refund on a game you’ve already put 100+ hours into just seems dishonest.

They were sold a product where they were guaranteed that it wouldn’t be a gear grind. After 100+ hours in, GW2 devs are changing the direction the game is heading in. The game is now becoming a gear grind for the best gear.

False advertisement warrants calls for refunds.

Are we playing the same game? GW2 was a gear grind at launch. You didn’t receive a full set of exotics at level 80, what did you really expect?

Let’s all sit back and take a look at how childish threatening to “review bomb if you don’t get your way” is……………

There.

Now that we have all realized the majority of us here are adults, let’s take a deep breathe, stop overreacting, and chill out. There are plenty of other way to express your feelings in the forms of constructive criticism, and my guess is , the people who matter will take that more seriously than, per say, “RAWR! YOU LIED TO US!!! YOU OWE US!!! GIVE US WHAT WE WANT OR ELSE RAGEE!!!!!1”

Hydrophidian.4319:

DegoLocc.5976:

Well the only part of that argument that doesn’t sit well for me, is the broader use of the “MMO” term, is usually used to abbreviate the most popular form of MMO’s the Class based MMORPG. I know it’s splitting hairs, but I don’t look at games that aren’t games like “second life” as true MMO’s either, but more so virtual chat rooms. That in itself may be incorrect to do on my part. But I would bet there are a lot who feel the same as I.

No doubt.

But this starts to get into deeper waters with questions like, what qualifies as a game?

Second Life, which, yes, is generally counted as an MMO, is not merely a virtual chat room. It puts tremendous focus on user-generated content (and, frankly, people have done some amazing things there with the tools available).

Is this type of thing relevant to the more game-centric end of the spectrum? I think it is. Have MMORPGs consistently failed to leverage this sort of thing properly? I’d say yes. To the point of usually just ignoring it outright.

I think a lot can be learned from Second Life (and the unprecedented success of an indie title like Minecraft), but too much emphasis on labels can cause those lessons to be lost.

It all goes back to what I said as laziness and lumping together a bunch of sub genres that shouldn’t even be related to each other in my opinion.

I don’t think it’s laziness, per se. It’s more to do with the evolution of a common language, and needing shorthand for concepts that would be exhausting to constantly explain in detail.

But, after a certain point of refinement, the categorization does break down. And it does get abused.

For example, I’m into electronic music. Consequently, I’m very well acquainted with the confusions, complexities and conflicts involving genre, subgenre, (sub)subgenre and artistic stylings. It can get pretty silly.

I think it can be argued that Guild Wars is a style of MMO (which I can go along with). I think it can be argued that it’s a variation of MMORPG (which I’m not so sure about). I think it can also be argued that it’s neither of these things. And I think the extent of this thread demonstrates all of that.

And that it can all be argued this thoroughly, intently and doggedly, we’ve illustrated just how unhelpful relying too heavily on these labels can be.

For the most part yes.

And funny, I was going to use the music analogy myself with all the different sub genres, as I am into making music as well.

For instance you have your basic heavy metal, then you have other variants such as, death metal, speed metal, nu metal, sludge metal, black metal, ect ect. And heavy metal itself is a sub genre of rock. So it just gets deeper and deeper your head can start to spin after a while.

But it’s good to note that having different genres are a good thing, and it’s even more swell when new things spring up because of it, and start new genres. Which seems to happen more rarely in games.

Krosslite.1950:

Totally agree with OPs post.

Only read the first response and stopped. I hope someone explained what persistent means.

Having come from MUDs and played EQ for over 5 years. I still feel this is the first MMO that has returned to these root and I love it.
This to me is a welcome change and I am staying here for as long as possible

OP was talking about Guild Wars 1, not Guild Wars 2. As we have pretty much come to the conclusion in this thread that Guild Wars 1 was not an MMORPG, but Guild Wars 2 is.

Vzur.7123:

Not coincidentally, I guess, GW2 is becoming more and more like the first GW, MMO or not. People are all running instances, or doing instanced PvP, the huge open world that set GW2 apart from its predecessor, left empty. People who prefer an instanced like might be fine with that, but people who enjoyed GW2 for its open content, not so much.

Seems to me like personal private/group instances have been killing MMOs for as long as devs have been using them. They kill the part of the game that is unique to MMOs, in favor of instanced gameplay that’s entirely possible in small scale lobby-based coop and PvP games.

Much like the first GW, the lobby is the big MMO city in the middle of all that instancing. Now there’s just all that dead weight that is the rest of the gameworld, too.

I’ll agree to an extent, I always prefered sandbox MMO’s to Themeparks, But GW2 as a theme park is good at making you forget it’s not a sandbox. It’s cleverly designed, and doesn’t discourage exploration, like say SWTOR does. Sharding is term used for use of many instances, and the reason it’s here today and wasn’t long ago is simply because game textures are much more detailed now, and as a result making HUGE worlds is more of a daunting load on PC’s.

As far as the worlds being empty, come transfer to “gates of madness”, I always see other people running around doing events, no matter what level zone I am in.

Hydrophidian.4319:

@MithranArkanere:

I think you’re conflating MMO and MMORPG.

I do think a pretty strong argument can be made that Guild Wars actually doesn’t comfortably qualify as an MMORPG (as we commonly view the subgenre today).

But not an MMO? That’s a more difficult sell. Note that an MMO doesn’t even really need to be a game, so your point about combat isn’t relevant as a determining factor.

I personally do think it’s relevant for the more refined MMORPG tag.

But this would all lead back to the debate over the defining nature of a persistent world.

Which has nothing to do with mechanics, such as, say, for example… gear progression.

Well the only part of that argument that doesn’t sit well for me, is the broader use of the “MMO” term, is usually used to abbreviate the most popular form of MMO’s the Class based MMORPG. I know it’s splitting hairs, but I don’t look at games that aren’t games like “second life” as true MMO’s either, but more so virtual chat rooms. That in itself may be incorrect to do on my part. But I would bet there are a lot who feel the same as I.

It all goes back to what I said as laziness and lumping together a bunch of sub genres that shouldn’t even be related to each other in my opinion. Some ppl think RTS games, or games like farmville on facebook are MMO’s and they’re not, they are Online RTS games. Second Life shouldn’t be referred to as an MMO either (but it often is sadly), it should be called what it is, “a virtual chat space, online”.

fractal.7039:

I am going to sum it all up for everyone.

Guild Wars 1 is not a MMO. It is a CORPG, due to the limited players in the majority of the game areas, and the non-persistant nature of those same areas.

Guild Wars 2 is a MMO. To be more specific Guild Wars 2 is a class based MMO. It has defined classes and you can’t choose bits and pieces of skills you want.

Try to think of one “class based” MMO that did not have gear progression in it. You can’t all “class based” MMO’s have gear progression as one of their functions.

Examples of “Class based” MMO’s:

EQ, EQ2, DaoC, WAR, WoW, AoC, Lineage I and II, FFXI, TOR, GW2, etc

We had a gear progression prior to the patch and we have gear progression after the patch…. Why worry about it now.

That is off topic with the whole progression thing, but I will bite, I agree. This game launched with gear progression, but ppl were ok with it then. Also it was made public before release ever happened that down the line the game would expand, and the level cap WOULD grow. What do you guys think is going to happen when they make level cap 90? And there is new tiers of 90 gear? Did anybody not seeing this coming? Why is everyone so shocked?

But back on topic, yes, GW1 was a great game, but it wasn’t an MMO, GW2 however is a great game and MMO.

Hydrophidian.4319:

You’ve found a list of cooperative games that includes Guild Wars, but doesn’t include many (any?) MMORPGs (or MMOs?). I acknowledged that. I also acknowledged that, even though it’s not a genre list for the “CORPG”, it does lend some weight to your argument.

That’s all I wanted, I feel if you think hard on that statement you just made, and add in the whole persistent world argument as another factor, you will see the light that GW1 was not an MMO. Even if a few places online are too lazy to make more genre’s listed, or to avoid clutter just lump everything into an MMO category to keep things tidy, when in reality, it was just a cooperative roleplaying game with multiplayer tacked on with no gear progression. Still a great game though in it’s own right.

Hardly considered an MMO though, outside of the few who are misguided by those who lump everything together to make things more simple.

Hydrophidian.4319:

GADefence.5634:

GW1 was advertised by ANet as a MMO.

Was it? Explicitly? Can you point to that?

No, it wasn’t, and no he can’t.

If it said “like an MMO” on the box, that’s still not an MMO.

""""The different genre was chosen (as opposed to the classic “Massively Multiplayer Online (MMO) RPG”) """

“Different genre” was chosen “as opposed” (meaning NOT)

GADefence.5634:

“If I am wrong, the people who made the game are wrong, wiki is wrong, and you are right?”

GW1 was advertised by ANet as a MMO. Wikipedia lists it as an MMO. Most gaming sites list it as an MMO. It’s becoming more and more and more you rather then “everyone”.

Funny you must have missed the part where I linked two different pages of wiki calling it a cooperativeRPG.

On a list of cooperative games, that don’t list ANY MMO’s But there is GW1 right there on the list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cooperative_video_games

The first sentence basically sums it up here:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars

Hydrophidian.4319:

DegoLocc.5976:

If I am wrong, the people who made the game are wrong, wiki is wrong, and you are right?

Again, can you point to where the studio or publisher have ever made the explicit claim that it’s not an MMO?

And you may not want to trumpet Wikipedia. It notes the genre for the game as, not only an MMO, but as an MMORPG. It also includes it in its list of MMORPGs, which I linked to up thread.

Really?
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars

“Guild Wars is a CORPG, or Competitive/Cooperative Online Role Playing Game developed for Windows by ArenaNet and published by NCsoft”

Hydrophidian.4319:

DegoLocc.5976:

Hydrophidian.4319:

Okay, so have you found a list anywhere for the CORPG genre? Is there any recognition of it, outside of the title’s website, that you can point to?

As a matter of fact I have, it’s a big list, and GW1 is on it. GW2 is not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cooperative_video_games

That’s not a CORPG genre list. I was asking for a list that explicitly lists game under that specific genre, that explicitly includes titles based only on that qualification.

However…

“it’s a big list, and GW1 is on it. GW2 is not.”

…that, I think, has some weight to it.

You like to cut out my posts, so I will reiterate my point that was conveniently left out.

""*Not all are RPG’s granted, but there are a ton of CORPGS on there, Basically every RPG on that list is what GW1 is, a CORPG. Not an MMO like gw2.
You won’t find WOW, EQ,, UO, SWG, DAoC, or any other MMO on that list. Why I ask you, is GW1 on that list then? If I am wrong, the people who made the game are wrong, wiki is wrong, and you are right?
I think all evidence points to your theory being incorrect, once more.
GW1 never was, and never will be an MMO.
GW2 however is an MMO.
It’s so simple to grasp.*""

Hydrophidian.4319:

Okay, so have you found a list anywhere for the CORPG genre? Is there any recognition of it, outside of the title’s website, that you can point to?

As a matter of fact I have, it’s a big list, and GW1 is on it. GW2 is not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cooperative_video_games

Not all are RPG’s granted, but there are a ton of CORPGS on there, Basically every RPG on that list is what GW1 is, a CORPG. Not an MMO like gw2.

You won’t find WOW, EQ,, UO, SWG, DAoC, or any other MMO on that list. Why I ask you, is GW1 on that list then? If I am wrong, the people who made the game are wrong, wiki is wrong, and you are right?

I think all evidence points to your theory being incorrect, once more.

GW1 never was, and never will be an MMO.

GW2 however is an MMO.

It’s so simple to grasp.

Hydrophidian.4319:

Merthax.5172:

Per common usage of the terms, GW1 is not an MMO

I’ve already demonstrated that this is not the case. It’s generally categorized as an MMO, and I provided several links in support of that.

@Creslin:

MMO and MMORPG aren’t synonymous.

You should be careful about the assumptions you make about the people you’re referring to.

Links that also list games such as DOTA, as MMO’s…

Hardly any proof. I going to go with what the people who made the game said. “It’s not an MMO, it’s something different, it’s a CORPG”. Which is a valid genre, which does contain other games.

Hydrophidian.4319:

Obsidian.1328:

I don’t mean to be offensive, but why do you keep using that phrase “ad hominem?” Why not just say “Don’t get personal please.”?

You’re such a hipster.

I have a feeling if I called you that, you would say I was personally attacking you and being rude.

Pot, meet kettle.

Merthax.5172:

Per dictionary defintion, GW1 IS an MMO. Per dictionary defintion, a Mac is a personal computer (PC). Per common usage of the terms, GW1 is not an MMO and a Mac is not a PC.

Regardless, calling GW1 an MMO or not an MMO is a matter of semantics that has no bearing on anything.

At this point it seems the OP just wants to argue, because you’re right, it really doesn’t mean anything special, GW1 not being an MMO. Yet he wants to go on, and on. It’s like in his mind, the whole vertical progression argument hinges in the outcome of this thread or something.

Hydrophidian.4319:

DegoLocc.5976:

Oh but I have brought several points, a good debating tactic is to poke holes in your theory which I have done several times.

I’d disagree that ‘because I say so’ is a “good debating tactic”, and that’s largely all you’ve done. The difference was addressed in the initial post.

I have never once attacked you or insulted you.

“No long winded wall of text” <— this is an attack on presentation instead of the actual argument.

“No matter how much you want to think you have been playing an MMO” <— this is an attempt to ascribe negative attribute on the arguer, instead of focusing on the argument.

“You just want it to be an MMO so bad, but it just isn’t.” <— Same.

“Avoiding my way of pointing out the obvious to you, so you can remain oblivious to the debate does not mean I haven’t proved my point 10 times over.” <— Same, and now resorts to insult with “oblivious”.

“You have the attitude of, “anyone who disagrees with me is wrong”.” <— Same.

“You shouldn’t take things so personally in future when trying to debate.” <— Same.

The thing is, even if all these claims about me were true (they’re not, and you have no way of knowing anyhow) they don’t necessarily counter my argument.

You routinely commit the logical fallacy of argumentum ad hominem. Those are six examples from this very thread.

I find your delivery, overall, to be snide, hostile and dismissive. Also, after nearly 30 years online, I find it to be tiresome and trite. I’ve seen it a million times before. It has no emotional impact on me, beyond perhaps vague amusement or mild annoyance.

If you want any further response from me, you’ll have to refrain from this routine.

Thanks for your contribution, such as it was, to the dialogue.

None of thee mentioned above are personal insults or attacks. “Oblivious” is not an insult, it means you “don’t know” or “are not privy to”( example: you are oblivious to ALL the points me and other posters have brought to you in this thread because they threaten your precious argument that you seem to hold so dear).

And your above post supports my theory that you are taking this debate way too personally, when we all have tried to draw you a picture in this thread of why gw1 is NOT an MMO, but you just keep seeming to miss that point.

So yes, I stand by all I said, especially about not taking a debate so personally. I was never rude to you, or attacked you or your person verbally. I never insulted you, and if you’re insulted it must be due to your in ability to comprehend anything I say.

Have a nice day!

Agreed, thanks.

“Nov. Monthly Achievement Alienates Casuals”

Good, they belong in the arcade hack and slash beat em up genre anyhow.

What’s the point of having something if “EVERYONE” has it?

Making MMO’s casual friendly usually means dumbing down the game so no poor fella feels left behind. Which isn’t what MMO’s are about. If everyone is 100% equal whats even the point of gear? Different costumes? You don’t need an MMO for that type of gameplay.

Also if you’re dead set on this game and “fair play” 8 vs 8’s are right up your alley. Everyone has the same stuff and access to the same skills. Win/Win for everyone.

WvWvW will NEVER be “fair” because there is always one side who has more people anyhow. A lesser manned squad with all the best gear could change that though, variables, it makes battles on a large scale more interesting.

I think some of the anti stat progession guys would be shocked and surprised to see, how small their numbers are in the grand scheme of things.

Anet is not stupid, they proved it with this game (which had stat progression and a grind from launch), so let’s let them run their game, they seem to be doing a fine job in my mind and a lot of other peoples opinions are similar.

You all also forget not all of that 200 page thread was negative, a lot of us enjoyed the one time event, and enjoy new tiers of gear to try and achieve.

Hydrophidian.4319:

Meanwhile, you’ve failed to bring any support for your argument at all, despite direct requests. If your point were so strong, so evident, shouldn’t you be able to do more than belittle the person you’re arguing with (who also asked you to refrain from it more than once)

Oh but I have brought several points, a good debating tactic is to poke holes in your theory which I have done several times. I have never once attacked you or insulted you. Discredit your argument with pure logic however, now that is something I am completely guilty of.

Sorry for bringing logic into your topic, and I’m sorry the truth that you’re wrong in your assumptions seems to hurt you so much. It was never meant to. You shouldn’t take things so personally in future when trying to debate. Especially when trying to debate against something that is widely and firmly accepted.

fractal.7039:

Kathmandu.2417:

DegoLocc.5976:

fractal.7039:

GW1 was not an MMO. It had less than 10% of the world that was persistent. 90% of the game was instanced.

GW1 was a graphical Diablo…. instead of Chat Room you had towns….once you left a town you cannot meet new people in your instance.

GW2 is an MMO…. 90% of the world is persistant.

Yup, By their logic, red dead redemptions online sandbox mode was an MMO as well.

Funny thing is, it’s closer to being an MMO than GW1 is. But alas still not an MMO.

Just curios: where you guys see the border between MMO and no-MMO originating from instanced/non-instanced content btw. persistent/non-persistent world? 10% instanced world is persistent so the game is MMO. 90% intanced world is not persistent so the game is not MMO. What about 80%? 70%? 60%? 50%? Persistent? Not persistent? And… why?

10% = Not an MMO
90% = MMO

Can you travel the majority of the world(not just “hubs”) and meet people… If the answer is no… it is not an MMO

Exactly

Kathmandu.2417:

DegoLocc.5976:

It’s really cut and dry, there is no grey area,

But it obviously is. You differ between MMO’s and non-MMO’s based on quantitative characteristics, not on qualitative. Like: If you can play with N<X players in the same instance, then it is a MMO. If you can play with only N<Z players in the same instance, then it is not a MMO. Like: If you have x% of the world instanced then it’s not a MMO, but if you have y% of the world instanced then it is not.

So either you can give the exact values AND justify them, or we need some qualitative characteristics.

PS: I assume, only ONE game right now allows all the player to be in the same world at the same time, it’s EVE. So all others MMO’s would be not really MMO’s after your definitions. Just MMO-like.

Aside from the whole “persistent world argument of mine” which you ignored, yes, I’ll give you a numerical example.

4-8 players in same zone=coop RPG or CORPG
16,32, or 64 players in same zone= Multiplayer Online Game, or MOG.
100’s of players in the same zone(+ability to make multiple groups withing that same game zone)=MassiveMultiplayerOnlineRolePlayingGame, or MMORPG.

Quite simple really.

It takes, more than just the player number to make an MMO, but that is the general requirement of players in the same zones, that the game must support to be considered as a true MMO.

GADefence.5634:

“Yup, By their logic, red dead redemptions online sandbox mode was an MMO as well.

Funny thing is, it’s closer to being an MMO than GW1 is. But alas still not an MMO."

I love how you’re arguing what an MMO is and is not when you yourself admit you think a 16 man mutiplayer map is an MMO. . .

You failed to comprehend what I typed.

I said “alas, it’s not an MMO”,

But by OP’s logic it qualified.

I then noted that it was still closer to being an MMO than gw1 is. Despite it clearly not being one.

It was point to prove the flaw in OP’s logic.

I thought you left GW2 to play PS2, How’d that work out for you?

Kathmandu.2417:

DegoLocc.5976:

fractal.7039:

GW1 was not an MMO. It had less than 10% of the world that was persistent. 90% of the game was instanced.

GW1 was a graphical Diablo…. instead of Chat Room you had towns….once you left a town you cannot meet new people in your instance.

GW2 is an MMO…. 90% of the world is persistant.

Yup, By their logic, red dead redemptions online sandbox mode was an MMO as well.

Funny thing is, it’s closer to being an MMO than GW1 is. But alas still not an MMO.

Just curios: where you guys see the border between MMO and no-MMO originating from instanced/non-instanced content btw. persistent/non-persistent world? 10% instanced world is persistent so the game is MMO. 90% intanced world is not persistent so the game is not MMO. What about 80%? 70%? 60%? 50%? Persistent? Not persistent? And… why?

SWTOR, horrible game, but still an MMO, Why do you ask? It’s also HEAVILY INSTANCED, but unlike guild wars 1, you could have 100’s of players in the same area. THAT is the difference. GW1, towns or lobbys could have more than 8 people too, but you can hardly make a case that the game is an MMO, because it had a “glorified lobby area” when 99% of the rest of the game was only instanced out to you and 7 other ppl at the time. That makes it a CORPG, just like demon souls or dark souls. Not an MMO.

It’s really cut and dry, there is no grey area, GW1 just isn’t massive multiplayer, is more cooperative RPG. You will NEVER come across another player not in your group in GW1 outside of a town or lobby. That is why it’s not massively online. Sure 1000’s of people play, but not all together, they are split up in smaller match making, similar to how COD had thousands playing, but not together.

Also when you and your party leave your instance in GW1 the instance itself ceases to exist, that’s not persistent. Just because the lobbies (towns) are there still doesn’t make it persistent as a game on the whole. In SWTOR, it was heavily instanced, but if everyone logged out the world/zone, said world/zone is still there, and supports MANY GROUPS within the SAME WORLD/ZONE, not just one group, per one world/zone.

Like I said, SWTOR is a poor example of a game, but it’s still an MMO, and heavily instanced, where gw1 was also heavily instanced, but not an MMO. Hope that clears it up for you.

Quaz.4931:

(Is guild wars 2 even a fantasy game? I mean there are no elves anywhere!)

Since when does “having elves” have anything to do with being an MMO? Plently of real MMO’s are not fantasy, some are futuristic or sci fi.

But Regardless, gw1 was not an MMO, and gw2 is.

fractal.7039:

GW1 was not an MMO. It had less than 10% of the world that was persistent. 90% of the game was instanced.

GW1 was a graphical Diablo…. instead of Chat Room you had towns….once you left a town you cannot meet new people in your instance.

GW2 is an MMO…. 90% of the world is persistant.

Yup, By their logic, red dead redemptions online sandbox mode was an MMO as well.

Funny thing is, it’s closer to being an MMO than GW1 is. But alas still not an MMO.

dalendria.3762:

People who challenge whether or not the original GW was a MMO are not addressing the facts.

Arenanet, not us, said the GW2 would not have “gear stat progression (vertical progression feature).” They said it for years, did interviews, created videos, etc. explaining the reasons. They said it during the betas. Then after launching the product, they said it again and stated that Exotics would be the max stat gear. They also explained that there would different types of Exotics that could be obtained based on varying degrees of time – easy to get to harder. The only difference would be cosmetics (horizontal progression feature).

I wonder if people even know about the harder Exotics. These items exist and were the real step between “easy to obtain” Exotics and Legendaries.

So the game was sold with the “no gear stat progression” product feature. Many people bought the game because they wanted that feature. Now just 3 months later, they radically alter their product by introducing that feature with a promise that more vertical progression is to come.

Just one of many quotes from a disappointed buyer on a retail site:

“I saw this video called Guild Wars 2 Manifesto (on their main website, great video btw) and wanted very much to try it out. If you have seen the video and want the game because of it, do not buy it. Last weekend, they officially took back everything they said in the video. There was a lot of drama on the forums, with one thread over 11,000 posts long before it got closed. I will not go into detail about the changes, but basically, if you are currently playing another MMO and want to switch to another that is skill based and casual-friendly, this is not the game for you.”

Taken from Arenanet’s “The Endgame Reimagined” article on this site. Dated 9/13/12

“When we looked at the concept of “endgame” for Guild Wars 2, we designed it the same way. We didn’t want the endgame to be something you could only experience after a hundred hours of gameplay or after you reached some arbitrary number. We wanted it to be something that players got to experience every step along the way, spread out across the entire world of Tyria, so we’ve introduced game elements that you’d normally associate with “endgame” at every level and every possible opportunity….

Sure, once your character reaches max level, we’ve created new and interesting ways to challenge you as a player, but we didn’t want to force you to master an entirely new subset of the game."

The introduction of a new gear tier with an infusion item that has stats and agony is “an entirely new subset of the game.” It goes against their original product design that was available at launch.

This post has no place in this thread and is off topic. The discussion was “Is GW1 considered an MMO” And the answer is NO.

Sure there are a few ppl who “think” that it is. But that doesn’t change the fact that it’s not.

Hydrophidian.4319:

Okay, I think this has pretty much run its course.

There have been multiple challenges to the initial assertion.

Yea and you have been hard pressed to get anyone to agree with you that Guild Wars1 is an MMO. Most people in this thread point out the flaws in your reasoning, but debating with you is like talking to a brick wall.

You have the attitude of, “anyone who disagrees with me(which in this threads case is pretty much everyone) is wrong”. So the whole world is wrong? The games own developers admit it’s not an MMO, and you still try to argue that it is.

Amusing to say the least.

Columba.9730:

DegoLocc.5976:

Columba.9730:

DegoLocc.5976:

Columba.9730:

DegoLocc.5976:

Columba.9730:

DegoLocc.5976:

Columba.9730:

Please make your voice heard. flood all online buying sites with comments and reviews. If you don’t like this patch, say so. If they don’t sell anything over the holidays, someone will get fired and the direction will change.

Nice logic, lol.

Shame on you for wishing for someone to loose their job in this economy because of your personal “entitlement”.

Lol, business isn’t a charity, son. If you mess up, you deserve to lose your job so that the rest of the employees can keep theirs.

So you’re saying you didn’t get your 60 bucks worth of content and hours of playtime?

Sorry about your luck.

Also I am 31, so unless your in your 50’s you can refrain from calling me “son”. It’s insulting and snide.

What does me getting my $60 worth have to do with an incompetent wrecking this game? My apologies. Your logic and language implied a much younger age.

My language?! Look at my posting history, and look at yours. Who is the one who is immature? Who is speaking rationally, and who is raging like a child who isn’t getting his way?

Now that we have that straightened out. On to your point. You implied everyone should go make rage posts on consumer review sites, in hopes that hard working people at Anet lose their jobs.

My point back to you was that you got your moneys worth, what do you have to complain about that is valid enough to cost someone their job.

If you cannot look at what you have said and see the problem or issue with that, then there isn’t much hope for you as a human being.

Best of Luck!

So let incompetent people keep working so that the entire business goes under. Oh THAT makes a TON of sense. No, I don’t think that people who wreck a business should remain employed at said business. That’s rational. Besides, the world needs ditch diggers too.

Show me financial evidence that they “wrecked their game”. Or that GW2 is “going under”.

Or are you basing your entire argument on your personal opinion. If so, lulz.

See you six months from now, when GW2 is trucking along just fine. Still making money. Not missing entitled players like yourself one bit.

Like I said, best of luck with life, and growing up.

Entitled? Lol. I am simply asking them to follow through on their promises. Nice personal attack by the way.

Personal attack?! Where? You are acting entitled so I referred to you as such. If the shoe fits…

And there is a difference between “simply asking” Anet to do something, and starting a fire sale trying to “get people fired” because you’re not “getting your way”. Sounds pretty “entitled” to me.

Columba.9730:

DegoLocc.5976:

Columba.9730:

DegoLocc.5976:

Columba.9730:

Please make your voice heard. flood all online buying sites with comments and reviews. If you don’t like this patch, say so. If they don’t sell anything over the holidays, someone will get fired and the direction will change.

Nice logic, lol.

Shame on you for wishing for someone to loose their job in this economy because of your personal “entitlement”.

Lol, business isn’t a charity, son. If you mess up, you deserve to lose your job so that the rest of the employees can keep theirs.

So you’re saying you didn’t get your 60 bucks worth of content and hours of playtime?

Sorry about your luck.

Also I am 31, so unless your in your 50’s you can refrain from calling me “son”. It’s insulting and snide.

What does me getting my $60 worth have to do with an incompetent wrecking this game? My apologies. Your logic and language implied a much younger age.

My language?! Look at my posting history, and look at yours. Who is the one who is immature? Who is speaking rationally, and who is raging like a child who isn’t getting his way?

Now that we have that straightened out. On to your point. You implied everyone should go make rage posts on consumer review sites, in hopes that hard working people at Anet lose their jobs.

My point back to you was that you got your moneys worth, what do you have to complain about that is valid enough to cost someone their job?

If you cannot look at what you have said and see the problem or issue with that, then there isn’t much hope for you as a human being.

Best of Luck!

Columba.9730:

DegoLocc.5976:

Columba.9730:

Please make your voice heard. flood all online buying sites with comments and reviews. If you don’t like this patch, say so. If they don’t sell anything over the holidays, someone will get fired and the direction will change.

Nice logic, lol.

Shame on you for wishing for someone to loose their job in this economy because of your personal “entitlement”.

Lol, business isn’t a charity, son. If you mess up, you deserve to lose your job so that the rest of the employees can keep theirs.

So you’re saying you didn’t get your 60 bucks worth of content and hours of playtime?

Sorry about your luck.

Also I am 31, so unless you’re in your 50’s(which I doubt, due to maturity level) you can refrain from calling me “son”. It’s insulting and snide.

Thanks!

Still waiting to hear if you think GTA 4 and Red Dead Redemption’s online sandbox modes are MMO’s

The thing with you, is you only quote and answer what you want to. But I have gave you other examples of CORPG’s to which you have said nothing, and using your definition and logic pointed out other games which meet your criteria and asked you if they too were considered MMO’s and have still yet to hear your take on said subject. You rebuttlas are aimed at everything but the point I am making.

Avoiding my way of pointing out the obvious to you, so you can remain oblivious to the debate does not mean I haven’t proved my point 10 times over. Your point, well you have none.

The game is not an MMO, GW1 players who have played MMO’s will tell you the same.

Thanks for the laugh though, and good luck trying to convince us all the sky is neon green.

Good Night

Hydrophidian.4319:

DegoLocc.5976:

Those sites cover RPG’s too, doesn’t mean they are MMO’s.

In each case, the genre of the title is listed as MMO or MMORPG.

And by using your logic, like the guy above said, is call of duty an MMO? Thousands of players play in the same world, except all split up into smaller 32 player instances.

Is there a PSW?

Or how about borderlands

Is there a PSW?

or red dead redemption

Is there a PSW?

are those MMO’s in your book too?

It’s not “my book”.

By all means, provide you definition of an MMO. How does it differ?

GTA 4 and red dead redemption BOTH have online persistent worlds, are they MMO’s too?

I did provide a definition, 100’s of players on the same map/zone, at the same time able to engage each other in a persistent world. GW1 doesn’t have that. It has open world “dungeons” or instances, in which you only play with your small group, and that’s it. They also have small scale pvp matches which are instanced similar to how COD does matchmaking.

Nope, still not an MMO.

Heck, Red dead redemptions online sandboxs have a more “MMO” feel too them than GW1 did. But it’s still not an MMO because 30 players is not “Massive” it’s standard.

Hydrophidian.4319:

DegoLocc.5976:

No long winded wall of text

- Ad hominem
- Text is not “long-winded”.
- If you have trouble with text, you should probably not be engaging in a text-based medium.

Guild Wars 1 is not considered an MMO by most people who know what they’re talking about.

False.

I have now cited multiple industry and cultural sources, including the website of the title itself.

Please reveal who these “people who know what they’re talking about” are. Developers? Journalists? Who are they?

CORPG is not MMORPG. They are two different things. Period.

Correct. The latter is a subgenre, the former is not. It’s a marketing label.

If you’re asserting otherwise, please provide a list of CORPG titles.

You will be hard pressed to find MANY ppl who actually played GW1 to agree with you. You just want it to be an MMO so bad, but it just isn’t. Nothing you linked changes the fact that the game was not a persistent open world, with 100’s of players fighting in the same zone/map all at the same time. That is what an MMO is. 100’s off ppl on the same map. GW1 doesn’t have that. Your argument is annoyingly lacking any substance, just you grasping for straws. Let it go man.

LOL or keep going, I am dying laughing here.

Also I would love for a dev of GW1 to chime in here and tell you himself, that even they admit GW1 was NOT an MMO. But instead a CORPG, that tried to be “LIKE” an MMO, but just wasn’t, and that’s why they made GW2. If what they had before was so great, or the next big thing they would have stuck to that, instead of making an MMO.

Another CORPG? Why sure, dark souls, and demon souls, there ya go. I can name more, if you’d like.

Columba.9730:

Please make your voice heard. flood all online buying sites with comments and reviews. If you don’t like this patch, say so. If they don’t sell anything over the holidays, someone will get fired and the direction will change.

Nice logic, lol.

Shame on you for wishing for someone to loose their job in this economy because of your personal “entitlement”.

GW2 is the best MMO out on the market. Bottom line, you got something better to play? Go play it?

Hydrophidian.4319:

Obsidian.1328:

I don’t know what gamers you’ve talked to, but almost everyone I’ve met, even in gw1, didn’t think it was an mmo.

- MMORPG.com’s list of MMORPGs.
- Massively’s list of MMOs.
- List of MMORPGs on Wikipedia.
- Guild Wars page on Top Ton Hammer, a site that focuses on MMOs.
- Guild Wars page on mmo-play.com
- Guild Wars page on mmosite.com

So you’re not the only one misinformed? Those sites cover RPG’s too, doesn’t mean they are MMO’s.

And by using your logic, like the guy above said, is call of duty an MMO? Thousands of players play in the same world, except all split up into smaller 32 player instances. Or how about borderlands, or red dead redemption, are those MMO’s in your book too?

Well this thread turned into “Guild Wars 1 was NOT an MMO” real quick didn’t it?

Can OP please change the title.

Someone said it earlier, even the people who played GW1 in game would tell you it was not an MMO.

OP is grasping at straws to prove a point that doesn’t exist. No matter how much you want to think you have been playing an MMO the last few years in GW1, hate to break it to you, or anyone else misinformed, but you were not. You were playing a heavily instanced CORPG, with some multiplayer matches tacted on. And no, it’s not the same thing, on MANY levels.

The qoute you linked in the OP, says, “Like MMO’s”, “like”, “LIKE”, meaning they tried to make it like an MMO, but it wasn’t. So they made GW2, a true MMO with a persistent world.

Columba.9730:

Caedmon.6798:

Columba.9730:

Caedmon.6798:

Just login,play the game,and see if you still like it, ( im betting you do ) >Ignore all the negativity on the forums,dont let them drag you down to their own sad little world of misery where nothing can be ever good.

things were great before this weeks patch.

They implemented one ( Awesome,may i add ) dungeon where it becomes necessary to when you have reached level 10+ ? have gear with agony resist,otherwise you wont be able to make it,and you have to grind for it ..alot.Its one dungeon,should we really all cry about this ? You can still do 10lvls,you can still gain enough fracts to buy the other items while doing 1 – 10,and you are Not forced to go any higher if you dont want the legendary weap or if you dont want to grind + craft and spend an insane amount of gold.This dungeon is for the people that Are willing to do so.If you don’t then just don’t,i think its pretty simple.

No, you cannot buy the items necessary for ascended. ever. You MUST grind dungeons. If you like dungeon grinds, then have fun!

The gear is mandatory for end game content, including wvw.

You have no clue what you’re talking about. And that’s all I am going to say, LOL.

LOL, WOW copied EQ, and plenty of other older MMO’s.

The only thing WOW DID do, was make MMO’s carebear easily accessible, and dumbed down to the masses. And I hate them for that. But what do ya do? We live in the age of entitlement and “I want everyone to have the same things I have with no work because I don’t have time to invest in a game” guys.

MMO’s by original design were timesinks that took months, if not years for the community to figure out how everything worked. Nowadays, MMO’s are uber easy, and ppl burn through the content so fast just so the minority doesn’t feel left behind.

I miss perma death, stealing ppl’s crap out of their bags in towns and ganking. Back when playing an MMO was a brutal experience and everywhere you went you had to watch your back. It was thrilling and there was nothing like it. A simple trip to town could end you, if you where there at the wrong time. It was exhilarating.

Nowadays, it’s all about, pvp here and only here in this area, no where else. Give everyone uber gear with little to grind (and they still cry about grind, when they don’t know what grind is).

No long winded wall of text can change the FACT, that Guild Wars 1 is not considered an MMO by most people who know what they’re talking about. CORPG is not MMORPG. They are two different things. Period.

And it’s hilarious to watch people try so hard to say it’s something it’s clearly, very clearly not.

So continue on, I do need the laugh.

Game is a blast.

Sai of Winter.2539:

I dislike how people think there is only one way an MMO should be. Your way is not wrong, but it’s not the only way. Guild Wars 2 is a perfect example…excuse me, was a perfect example…

Funny, I dislike when casual players come and try to make my favorite genre something it isn’t or wasn’t never meant to ever be. Want to complain until the thing is a step away from an arcade beat em up, so everyone feels fair. 8v8 are there, and they are fair for a reason. Same reason they grow repeative and tiresome. The charm of MMO’s is the brutality of trying to stay current. And if you fall behind a bit, playing the underdog until you catch up. Life isn’t fair, we can’t all be winners. Victory wouldn’t be as sweet if that was the way.

I’m sorry you guys feel lied to or whatever, I really am. But you should have seen the writing on the wall, with this being a MAJOR MMO release. And figured out how it was gonna end from there.

I’m not trying to be rude, I am just tired of kiddies crying. Be constructive that’s fine, a good amount of you arguing don’t even know the facts, or remotely what Anets plans are, they made this awesome game, let’s thank them for that, and respect what they are trying to do with it, and hear them out.

Regardless, all of you have gotten your 60 bucks worth of playtime and content. So even if you do leave, leave on good terms, and don’t burn bridges out of heat of the moment, overreacting childish rage, and threats.

Have a nice day, I’m finally off to play the real game, no more forum PVP for me tonight, but was fun. Good luck to you all in what you do.

Strang.8170:

DegoLocc.5976:

It’s simply not enough, and I bought this game because despite what their “manifesto said” I new the moment they announced that they would raise level cap down the road that this game would be your standard grind. And that is good for the games longevity.

You guys can’t name any other TRUE MMO, that have gear stat progression, because there are none. If it didn’t have that no one would play for years and years and years. GW1 was a fluke, it wasn’t an MMO and there is no other game like it. Either move on, or go back to playing it. And just accept what most MMO’s players want because that is who Anet is wisely after.

And could you specify exactly why it matters that gw1 is not an mmo?
Both gw and gw2 are onlinemultiplayer titles.

If you read the thread from the beginning (unless the mods have had their way with rude posts) You’ll see why I even made the comparison, I can’t be bothered to repeat myself, but your more than welcome to re read and try and keep up with the conversation.

Merthax.5172:

Uh oh, the semantics of whether GW1 is or is not an MMO. Does it really matter? Really now?

I’ll go along with GW1 not being an MMO in the sense that a Mac is not a PC (personal computer, irrespsective of OS). Even though by dictionary defintion, both items fit their respective categories, they do not meet the typical defintion per common usage. A better description for GW1 would be a Diablo-like game with horizontal progression and GUIs instead of text menus for the game lobby. Note that Diablo itself is heavily based on gear progression, much more so than your average MMORPG.

Just because no MMO that I know of has used horizontal progression doesn’t mean that GW2 shouldn’t have done it. If we stuck with only doing things that had been done before, we would all still be living in caves huddled over fires. Doing new things is necessary for any kind of evolution to take place.

Seriously suggesting League of Legends though? It has no PvE component and has a very rigid format. It fits into the e-sport theme quite well because of this, and has aspects that ANet should take note of should they truly want to develop the PvP into an e-sport. However, it really doesn’t seem relevant to discussions about the PvE portions of GW2.

It’s about having enough common sense and foresight to see that for most ppl, cosmetic player growth is simply not enough. Long term players want stats. People who don’t are for the most part not long term players, but the flavor of the week, entitled casuals.

You can disagree, but it is, what it is.