Guild Wars 2

bwillb.2165:

In fact, I never understand how these statements come out anyways – Every single MMO that has both PvE/PvP is balanced for both.

That’s simply not true. World of Warcraft was very much PvP focused with its balance. They even went so far as to make a certain rogue talent require resilience, a PvP-only stat, to get full benefit, because people were using the talent in PvP with glass cannon gear and becoming too invulnerable. This made it useless in PvE, and not a single kitten was given by blizzard.

Guild Wars had the same PvP focus on balance at least until they split the numbers, and so far Guild Wars 2 has had the same focus as well. I haven’t seen a single nerf or buff that was because of something being too strong or weak in dynamic events or dungeons.

If you’re attempting to say WoW wasn’t also focused on PvE, that is simply wrong.

They balance around both. I played WoW for 5 years from the vanilla days, doing both hard progressive endgame raiding and serious pvp, and they focused both equally hard. Part of the mentality of playing an MMO should be realizing that it isn’t just one or the other, that there are going to be tweaks that affect both, and part of being good at the game and continuing to enjoy it is adapting to the tweaks the developer puts into it.

I’ve played pretty much every MMO since the days of Ultima online, up into Rift, Aeon, and this – Both trees will get hit with changes, and no matter what, whinge posts like this will exist. You just get used to it after a while.

If you played WoW seriously and looked at the forums, the amount of needless complaints make the few whining threads on these forums look like so much chaff. The moderators keep this place pretty clean (Although I wish they would remove posts like this, like the person’s other posts) and keep valueless threads out of discussion for the most part.

This change was clearly meant to reduce a spike in PvP damage, but in doing it, they ALSO took into mind the effect it would have on PvE (Not that backstab builds are common, or even useful in PvE in the first place, but you know people are going to complain anyways) As such, they made a change that helped every other build’s effectiveness and kept the damage of BS’s rotation around the same. All people have to do is learn and adapt – something that won’t be done with posting rant posts in the forums.

Change in damage is negligible. It’s almost exactly the same (Hear that backstab whiners? Your damage is the SAME, change your rotation and you’ll be fine) except for the fact that every other build benefits from it. P/P is more useful and other stuff works well with it. Experiment and try it out.

Still amusing there’s no actual math or logic behind this post.

Also, as someome who played Rift, it was balanced highly for PvP as well as PvE, just like any other MMO, so it’s clear your wires are crossed somewhere. The sheer amount of PvP balancing in the first 6 months of the game was hilarious.

In fact, I never understand how these statements come out anyways – Every single MMO that has both PvE/PvP is balanced for both.

Anyways, after testing the signet yesterday, same conclusions as before. BS takes a damage hit, subsequent parts of the combo are stronger. P/P is better, S/P is better, D/D is better, everything else is better because of it. Case closed – PvE buff.

I’m still lost and trying to figure out how a PvE buff to pretty much every single build is something that’s “streamlining individuality” and “hurting PvE play”.

Like, this change singlehandedly made a whole bunch of other builds more useful, and didn’t change the backstab build – All it did was slightly alter it so BS doesn’t frontload as much and you put more Heartseekers into your rotation.

If this was a straight up 30% hit to Assassin’s signet, there would be a case here – That would be hurting PvE at the expense of PvP, but that isn’t what happened. Instead, we got what’s actually a really nice buff to every other thief build in existence, and the main build this should affect doesn’t get hurt from it at all, it just has to change its rotation to accomodate it. :p

I still don’t see the question being answered though. I’m still entirely curious as to how you think this can be a PvE nerf when it actually buffs PvE play.

Unload IS junk but it’s the best junk P/P has

Yes, this is something I’m really looking forward to when I get home.

Pistol/Pistol finally got some love.

Ring.6928:

Cal.1985:

Oh my god… do you read the patchnotes? They actually separated a guardian skill from PvE/sPvP. So tell me how they are not doing that?

Can you please explain me do you waith 30 seconds to start killing mobs?! There are so much better things you can put on the skill bar for PvE… anyway. The change does NOT affect the PvE game as much it does the PvP one, so why it should be separated?

Only read thief and ranger.

Draxius.7839:

An MMO that never changed anything would get pretty boring, pretty fast. Would you rather them have just hit backstab’s damage? Or just hit the assassin’s signet with a 25% reduction?

tbh yes, I would’ve prefer it to signet down to 25% or 30% that;s how they nerf’d pistol whip.

I’m curious as your logic there – You would rather a straight damage nerf (Which IS PvE being affected by PvP) than something that actually keeps the utility and usability of the signet, allowing for other builds?

Like, either way, you’re still getting a damage decrease. A 25%-30% nerf would likely be more than what you’re getting now.

You still didn’t answer my question at all though. Why is your backstab build “unusable” now? I don’t see any reasoning or math behind it, so this remains a simple rant post.

I mean, I understand you’re angry because you perceive a specific rotation will cause less frontloaded damage – I just don’t think you actually understand what the change is doing.

As I mentioned, the only possible way your build could be made “Useless” (Which isn’t even the right word, since it’s still quite useable) would be if you waited 30 seconds before every fight to use Assassin’s Signet/Backstab. On every mob. I’m assuming that’s not the case, because that sounds tedious.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

Draxius.7839:

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

Draxius.7839:

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

Draxius.7839:

@Ring – You said it yourself, the thing you were doing where you simply kill a mob in 3 seconds doesn’t work any more. The next step is adapting and doing something different.

Roll warrior

Not only will you kill those mobs just as quick, you will be able to do it without feeling squishy.

You know how sometimes you have to dodge, well imagine never having to do that. Imagine getting 300 health per second regen, a 12% passive damage increase that stacks with your a 20% damage increase on a big sword you can use to smack things around with.

What does this have to do with Assassin’s Signet?

Read the last line in your post. I was directly responding to your advice to the guy. My main is a warrior, I know how easy it can be and made the suggestion.

I don’t think telling someone who clearly wants to play his thief to roll a warrior is legitimate advice though

Maybe, but you did say try something different. It is all true though, what I said about warriors. I read this forum because I also enjoy playing a thief. If I want easy mode I have that already. So if that’s what someone wants (and it seemed like he did) he can play there.

Incase you care I like playing a class with good condition damage, warriors is pretty craptastic.

I still think its somewhat akin to coming onto a Harley forum where a guy is saying something is wrong with his Harley, asking for advice to fix it, and telling the guy to go buy a Kawasaki because they’re better.

I think the guy would benefit more on advice for his thief rather than being told to reroll – But I digress.

@Ring – This was basically a hit to backstab and a buff to pretty much everything else – It actually opens up some neat paths – Instead of getting frontloaded backstab damage followed by some crappy hits, you can now do BS, Swap, signet, overload, or any other combination of things. You don’t have to use it specifically for a power backstab, it was just the most effective use, and now it’s not.

An MMO that never changed anything would get pretty boring, pretty fast. Would you rather them have just hit backstab’s damage? Or just hit the assassin’s signet with a 25% reduction?

THOSE would be PvE suffering from a PvP problem, because those changes would offer nothing in return for something that’s being lost – The way it’s been changed has offered different build paths instead of a straight damage hit.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

Draxius.7839:

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

Draxius.7839:

@Ring – You said it yourself, the thing you were doing where you simply kill a mob in 3 seconds doesn’t work any more. The next step is adapting and doing something different.

Roll warrior

Not only will you kill those mobs just as quick, you will be able to do it without feeling squishy.

You know how sometimes you have to dodge, well imagine never having to do that. Imagine getting 300 health per second regen, a 12% passive damage increase that stacks with your a 20% damage increase on a big sword you can use to smack things around with.

What does this have to do with Assassin’s Signet?

Read the last line in your post. I was directly responding to your advice to the guy. My main is a warrior, I know how easy it can be and made the suggestion.

I don’t think telling someone who clearly wants to play his thief to roll a warrior is legitimate advice though

I have an honest question for you – Why are you posting this in every thread here?

Another honest question – How exactly is your PvE build “F’ed” due to the assassin’s signet change? Like, don’t just say it’s unusable – Why is it unusable?

The only possible way it could be unusable is if every time you wanted to fight a mob, you used Assassin’s signet/backstab on it. Is that the case?

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

Draxius.7839:

@Ring – You said it yourself, the thing you were doing where you simply kill a mob in 3 seconds doesn’t work any more. The next step is adapting and doing something different.

Roll warrior

Not only will you kill those mobs just as quick, you will be able to do it without feeling squishy.

You know how sometimes you have to dodge, well imagine never having to do that. Imagine getting 300 health per second regen, a 12% passive damage increase that stacks with your a 20% damage increase on a big sword you can use to smack things around with.

What does this have to do with Assassin’s Signet?

The game is going to change, it’s in its infancy – The fact you put some time into considering the build is good, but things are going to get changed – Things change in every game.

In PvE dual pistols are.. pretty bad. I’m happy this’ll make them better, especially with the signet change for Overload. Shortbow was good for calling in large packs of mobs and general ranged use, S/P was ok, I liked D/D better though.

People always say “You need to keep PvP and PvE separate”, but this doesn’t actually hurt PvE. In fact, it makes it better. It just makes a specific build slightly less fast at frontloading damage into mobs. I’m at work, but my guess is instead of killing a mob in 3 seconds with BS Smackdown, it now takes 4. Likewise, doing P/P and D/D probably takes 4 seconds instead of 5, so you’re still getting a fine trade out of the deal. You’re not actually killing things any slower than any other thieves.

Redscope.6215:

Amen.2630:

yea everything needs to be nerfed just not the proffession YOU are playing!
kitten them! kitten everyone who says Thiefes are OP! they keep nerfing every fun out of this game … quit this kitten of game !!!

OMKITTENG I can’t 2-shot people anymore? WTKitten kitten? Kitkitkitten of kitten kitten! You know what? Kitten….just kitten the kitten kitkitten.

;)

I laughed, since people are posting anything from QUIT THE GAME to MY BUILD DOESNT WORK ANYMORE to BOYCOTT ARENANET.

@Ring – You said it yourself, the thing you were doing where you simply kill a mob in 3 seconds doesn’t work any more. The next step is adapting and doing something different.

samanosuke.4508:

mrsrachelm, I disagree. If anything this will benefit you in pve if you do mob farming etc.

^

This cannot possibly make PvE builds worse, unless the sole purpose of your PvE build relied on signet backstabbing things, and that sounds like misery itself.

This change makes PvE farming/questing much faster and effective.

Yes, Unload specifically will be great with Signet now instead of the signet being totally worthless. (Ever try using signet with Pistol/Pistol? haha)

This doesn’t make backstab reliant thieves stronger, please stop posting that. It does not make bursting people easier. It makes your Signet use stronger over a greater period of time, which makes it impossible to make a burst stronger by its very definition. :P

For backstab thieves, you’re losing your frontload, and having a stronger rotation. For others, you’re getting a small damage buff.

mrsrachelm.7618:

And once again, my thief build is made that much more difficult in PvE because of PvP play. To ArenaNet: Not everyone PvP’s ya know!

How can your build be more difficult in PvE because of this? Did you rely on signet backstabbing world mobs?

Very strange bug the last couple of days – I can’t talk to any trading post NPCS (Duh, as it said in the title). They do not interact in any way.

When I access the post through the menu and buy/sell things, it leaves them in the “Pickup” window, but says I have to talk to a trading post NPC to actually pick the stuff up – Which I can’t.

Anyone ever see this happen and know how to clear it up? Sorry if I missed a thread somewhere on the topic.

Rump Buffalo.2594:

Since people dont know how to do math ill just leave this here…
15 × 5 = 75(%)
50 × 1 = 50(%)
GOOD GOD IT DOES MORE OVERALL DAMAGE… ) and only serves to stop the insane 25k+ backstab nukes. This is actually an overall damage buff for all other builds (aside from condition stuff i guess?) that fixed the backstab issue

It actually doesn’t do more damage at all, since your random math doesn’t take into account the actual damage things like backstab did. :p

However, it increases the overall damage of things like Sword/Dagger and Pistol/Pistol, which is something thieves did need to make those more useful. Plus, it solves the backstab “problem” which people complained so much about. Since I never used backstab in the first place (too gimmicky) its hard to feel too sad about it.

Volrath.1473:

every one is theory-crafting about how great this is, i do not doubt it is but, again, has any one TESTED this and have some numbers for us?! im at work and can only do this in 6h…

I don’t think “great” is the best word for it, it’s just taking signet and spreading its damage across a greater time, instead of loading it all into backstab for a huge burst.

It’s rightfully meant to hit builds that relied entirely on backstab/steal, and rightfully meant to help Pistol/Pistol & Sword/dagger, and other builds that relied on doing more than one thing. I’m at work too at the moment, but basically what you’ll see is a slight increase in overall damage and a decrease to burst, especially if that burst relied on signet/backstab.

Personally, as a guy who does Pistol/Pistol a lot along with Dagger/Dagger, I like the possibilities, since the signet is wasted a lot with those builds.

Bah, stop complaining – This isn’t a nerf. Just makes damage sustained instead of incredibly frontloaded.

You’re still going to get those 5 hits in no matter what happens :P

This hits backstab primarily – Makes Pistol/Pistol look real nice though.

Permanent stealth!

However, about as useful as standing in town AFK, except you’re hitting buttons to do it.

I’m not sure ‘stealth’ is the right way to describe this build though, seeing as you’re basically doing a fireworks display around yourself, alerting every enemy in the area where to murder you.

If 1 thief is fighting 8 of you guys by himself and DOWNING people without being a corpse, it’s quite possible you have no idea how thieves work.

If he’s “permastealthed”, he’s using Cloak and dagger, which isn’t exactly the optimal way to gib people in a group of 8. Hell, if even 2 people aoed properly, the thief would be downed. Sounds more like people were just spamming at nothing and acting surprised when the thief is still alive.

Rehk.6574:

What really irks me is when people don’t want to take the time to join a ventrilo / teamspeak / mumble / or skype.

Even if you don’t have a mic, being able to listen to someone call directions so people are not wasting time mid fight trying to type out crucial information is SOO beneficial its just mind boggling that people shrug it off with such a laissez faire attitude.

Especially in PvP. I generally refuse to group with people in pvp if they dont want to take all of 2-3 minutes to join a server for voice communication. Its absolutely infuriating when people dont, then whine about being killed and say things like “why weren’t you with me when I was over here doing blah blah blah.”

…..mmmm…Cause I can’t read your mind? Cause…..you didn’t say….anything?

Some people…

I can’t agree, mostly because whenever I have joined a voice server for “Communication” in any game, it has been a nasally, annoying, raging jerk on the other end who is continually eating cookies or something in the background, crying out curses whenever he dies, and generally infuriating things I don’t want to hear when playing a fantasy video game.

I don’t think it’s that people don’t want to take the time, I think it’s that whenever I hear people on a voicechat system, I instantly want to mute them. I remember back raiding in other games, I simply had 50%+ of the raid muted on Vent because hearing their voices made me cringe.

The chances of you joining a server and having the other person’s voice be pleasing to the ear or even neutral are very low, compared to you getting someone who is obviously fresh off playing Call of Duty and feels he should be getting sick frags, and that anyone who kills him is a noob.

I guess I find it exceptionally hard to believe there isn’t a single conversation in /say or general chat when there’s a nonstop chat stream in both for me, even walking around in random areas.

Might want to switch servers in that case, I haven’t had that experience since level 1.

Honestly, if you want conversation to happen, sometimes you’re going to have to initiate it.

I see literally DOZENS of people running around at any minor event, people roleplaying in the city, in the bars, in the streets, on the fountains, pretty much everywhere, there’s obviously a thriving community. Mostly in say, I don’t think anything in general chats has much merit to it whatsoever.

Give it a shot and elbow your way in there. I have already, and it’s been great fun.

Yep, there’s some very helpful people flitting around. You’ll get the occasional jerk but you see that anywhere, very easy to ignore.

The punks will filter into it slowly but I think the type of people who play this game are committed to it and really enjoy it, not just play it because they want big items or a sense of accomplishment – They genuinely enjoy playing the game.

I’m throwing a tantrum? What? I’m so confused. I’m typing things nicely in a normal way, you’re the one that threw a tantrum and yelled at the people before you quit the group, not moi!

Then, you have started to throw insults at a guy on the forums because… why again? Because he’s disagreeing with how you handled the situation? Or trying to belittle me saying “You must be one of the members of the group”? lol.

You’ve noticed the problem in many moos over the years, but somehow, this particular group was just enough to make a whiny forum post about it, right?

People are so cute

And hey look, an arrogant post to add on to your arrogant posts. I bet you’re a gem in dungeons. Can’t figure out why people wouldn’t listen to your sage advice.

Why? Because I disagree with how you handled the situation?

Welcome to life, where there are people with different opinions than you.

What does level have to do with anything? People are max level on a lot of games – That doesn’t equate to skill, never has in any game, mmo or otherwise.

I have friends who play games who are max level in them and are absolutely horrible at the game. They’re the same level as me, maxed, but skill difference is totally in the player.

You can try to change and try to coordinate all you want, but you can’t grab their keyboard and control their characters for them and make them better players by typing out instructions in chat, and you certainly can’t make them better players by telling them they suck, that they have to learn to dodge and have to be better at the game.

Sometimes you’ll get bad groups – It happens. If you’ve ever played another video game online, you’ve gotten groups of bad people before. Sometimes, you can change it, sometimes, you can’t. If you can’t, leave the group, just leave the attitude behind. Doesn’t help anyone to hear that they’re bad at a video game before the person ragequits in an impotent fury. I’ve never understood why anyone would ever think it would, to be honest.

Tarnished Coast, as others have mentioned.

So you came into a dungeon as an experienced player, explained things to the less experienced player, and ragequit after the less experienced players did things in a different way than you know how to do?

Expecting competence and coordination from a PuG is something entirely doomed to heartbreak. Patience is the best asset here – Yelling at your party and telling them they suck, not so much.

Welcome to basic Economics – Hope you enjoy your stay.