Guild Wars 2

Decided to roll a thief today with the intentions of making more of a sort of rogue WoW class. Something that could last longer in a fight and won with the sort of hit and run control approach and some burst setup. This is the build I came up with: http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckzzMM9MMMlomMMlomaaxG0mMoRqMa

The goal was to be tanky enough to survive duels and fights long enough to wear the other person out so I went with some extra toughness and the healing through initiative as well as stealth regen. For damage I chose everything that gives me might (dodge roll, vemom and signet use plus anytime I enter stealth) and went with just enough crit to make it work (~43% then the crit sigils on all weapons). I’m also running a knights amulet with a ramp. jewl. Using the runes for strength and might duration.

By the end of the fight I end off with around 8 stacks of might. If I end up using kitten signet and bask vemon for my final burst out of stealth combo I’m usually bursting someone with 14-16 stacks of might.

You end up with decent damage, alright control and 21k ish HP which goes well with the 300 toughness. Just enough to get the job done but still no standing in burst guardian GS aoe spins etc lol.

I’ve only been playing this spec for 2 or so hours butI’m having pretty good success with it if I play well. Duels vs other burst thieves are amazing fun!

Dee Jay.2460:

I honestly don’t see the difference between a Stealth stomp and a Stability stomp.

Stealth stomps might not require a long CD, but they can be interrupted.

Stability stomps or Quickness stomps on the other hand are very hard to interrupt but require a CD.

Considering that Thieves don’t really have access to Stability outside of Daggerstorm I think it’s a fair trade off.

They don’t have stability, but blinds are essentially the same thing. Doesn’t matter if you’re immune to cc if you can’t be hit by it in the first place. That being said, anyone know of any hard cc you can land while blinded? Do any non targeted cc’s still connect?

Archonis.7249:

If you are asking for them to be diminished, then you are indeed asking for nerfs.

Well let me quote you, because you apparently forgot what you typed.

“Anyone else feel like stealth stomping needs to gtfo?” and then you say “I have no issues with stability stomps, mist form stomps etc…”

So from the way you typed things, it looks like you want to have Stealth Stomps removed and all the other ability assisted stomps are just fine and dandy. Anyone with invulnerability, quickness and stability are just as OP as a stealth stomp from your point of view.

I swear, people just won’t be happy until thief is near worthless in SPvP.

I’m not asking for them to be diminished, I’m asking for other peoples opinions on the topic, more to the point of ‘does it suit the stated purpose and intentions of the downed system. You also implied things on my own statements, maybe I didn’t convey myself quite the way I meant to, or perhaps in your over aware state of thief defense you miss judged what I was saying. I didn’t actually say anything to the tune of, stop it, or diminish it, what I did do tho was express my frustrations and then open the topic and my own opinions up to those of others to invoke discussion as it was something I felt to be a prudent topic.

Now, you also go on to misconstrue another part of my OP by taking it out of context. One of my biggest frustrations with the stealth stomp in comparison to the stability stomp is that you loose the ability to even put out damage on your opponent which could be enough to:
A. Help your team
B. Help yourself and get the all important rally.
More times than I can count, that last single bit of dps was the difference between victory and defeat. It just makes you feel useless and helpless, which is the opposite of the systems goal.

I also discussed my original thoughts on mist form not being quite so bad because I thought some targeted cc and aoe cc’s where still effective, (had barely played my ele and wasn’t aware it made you completely immune).

Now, before you go and take any of this out of context. My intentions where more of discussing things, and looking at the downed system in a player vs player context, not team situations because the goal of the system is to make you the player feel like even tho you’re down, you’re not out of the fight. It’s not made to be an, ‘Oh kitten I might get lucky if my team isn’t kitten and is paying attention’ type of deal. Although we can’t ignore the fact that so far PVP in GW2 is pretty much always going to have some team aspect to it, so we can’t completely look at this in a ‘vacuum’.

Archonis.7249:

Lulz, errybody wants to nerf everythang on the Thief.

Nothing is really OP about the Stealth Stomp. If you want to remove that, then you need to remove anything that gives people Invuln and Immunity when stomping too.

No one is calling for nerfs, just discussing the topic and the stated intentions of the downed system vs the current reality of the downed system. Also, thieves are not the only ones who can stealth stomp. We’ve also been talking about mist form stomps, quickness stomps etc… etc… in this thread. It was just that stealth stomps in particular where on my mind when I started the thread. Although I do believe in my OP I touched on mist form and stability stomps as well and some of the differences between those and stealth stomps.

Wolfe.3097:

KnarleyMarley.6937:

Anyone else feel like stealth stomping needs to gtfo? I mean, the state purpose of the downed system is for players to feel like they’re not out of the fight even when they go down, they still have a chance. Not to mention that it encourages smart pvp plays like reviving teammates when the benefits out weigh the costs.

I have no issues with stability stomps, mist form stomps etc… because there are still some, all though few things you or team mates can do (if you teammates are aware and paying attention). Stealth how ever gives you no one to target for your cc or the ability to check for buffs like stability before using your cc cool downs. It also means your teammates most likely won’t even know to help you, and no one can target the ‘stomper’ for dps, you just have to hope you get lucky and someone comes in with enough aoe to do the job.

Stealth is by far the strongest stomp ability in the game, and maybe it’s just me but basically negating the entire downed state just feels a little bit over the top. Thoughts?

this is false, any damage wills till hit the thief, and any non targeted CC will affect the thief.

stability stomp is by far the strongest

but hell, at this point if it was removed it wouldnt even matter to me save for the fact then youll start complaining about blind stomps.

When someone stealth’s, you loose target and there is a very short window where you can start an attack or projectile before a target stealths and still have it hit them. Also not every class is lucky enough to have a non targeted cc in their downed abilities. Yeah sure, you can rely on teammates, but the whole point of the downed state is to make you (singular, not your team) feel like you still have a fighting chance, that is the stated design purpose and I just feel that stealth stomps really do just the opposite quite well, same as mist form stomps. I never said anything about OP this, or OP that. I just said it’s annoying as all hell during 1v1’s and really feels contrary to the objective of the downed system.

Now, this being said, while I haven’t shouted “OP! OP! NERFFFFF!” from the rooftops, I am certainly opening the mechanics of stealth stomp, mist form stomp, etc… etc… up to thoughts and debate. They’re after all very, very powerful.

And I thought my 10k spvp numbers where pretty good. Think I’m going to go play my favorite game of wait to see a thief engulfed in team mate stabbing and calmly kneel for the 1/2 hp kill shot. Que rage.

Yeah, hadn’t played my ele in quite a long time. Forgot that mist form makes you completely invulnerable. For some reason I still thought things like guardian knock back and fear worked… Also I thought that things/abilities already in flight pre mist form (warrior hammer for example) connected with the ele and didn’t get disjointed. I’m starting to now agree, if it wasn’t hot join and teammates could be relied on, I might have to swing my vote on over to mist form stomps from stealth stomps on most annoying.

This is true, I figured that thieves had something along the lines of a stability self buff in their possible kit somewhere… They do have blinds out the kitten tho. This being said, the warrior also may not have frenzy or stability equipped in their traits same as thieves. I thought that thieves had stealth/blinds built right into their weapon abilities tho?

Mist for stomp while annoying, is at least a single long cool down used on the stomp and they’re still vulnerable to some cc as well as easily spotted by a team mate. Because let’s face it, having to rely on teammates (especially hot join, is aggravating and usually a let down).

Good point about the quickness stomps too. Annoying as all hell! Still, maybe it’s just me, I just feel like they don’t annoy me quite as much haha. Maybe it’s something along the lines of seeing the person who kills me rather than the feeling of just getting shot in the back.

Anyone else feel like stealth stomping needs to gtfo? I mean, the state purpose of the downed system is for players to feel like they’re not out of the fight even when they go down, they still have a chance. Not to mention that it encourages smart pvp plays like reviving teammates when the benefits out weigh the costs.

I have no issues with stability stomps, mist form stomps etc… because there are still some, all though few things you or team mates can do (if you teammates are aware and paying attention). Stealth how ever gives you no one to target for your cc or the ability to check for buffs like stability before using your cc cool downs. It also means your teammates most likely won’t even know to help you, and no one can target the ‘stomper’ for dps, you just have to hope you get lucky and someone comes in with enough aoe to do the job.

Stealth is by far the strongest stomp ability in the game, and maybe it’s just me but basically negating the entire downed state just feels a little bit over the top. Thoughts?

zone.1073:

Like many skills, Vengeance has an animation and a cast time. It’s about 1.5 seconds long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfpAQBlmN5I

Thanks! So from the time I hit the button I have to remember that I need to buy ~1.5 seconds more in order to actually get the vengeance. I just wasn’t sure if the cast time animation actually affected when you actually got the ‘rally’. I just figured the animation was there and didn’t actually affect the time frame from button press to up and fighting. I guess my warrior would be ridiculous strong with the rally on vengeance trait tho if I didn’t have to wait that extra 1.5 seconds…. still seems like we could do with a faster cast. On that note… is it the same animation underwater for vengeance? I could sware it casts faster. I can pretty much always vengeance in water combat.

Just wondering since my connection can be a bit spotty, (although I’m usually well aware when it get’s a bit rocky and my MS is generally fairly low). Does anyone else feel like vengeance is slightly unresponsive? I feel like everytime I hit it there is a second or two delay and by that time… well, it’s pretty useless.

So how responsive do you all feel it is? Do you think it’s in need of a change? Perhaps it is designed to have this delay, if so, do you all feel it’s a good thing to keep it in?

I really don’t see much of the point of having a cast delay on it, in most 1v1’s it’s decently hard to get the time required to activate vengeance anyways (not quite so much in water combat).

A lot of people seem quick to hate on axe 5, but axe 5 really is a pretty fan-freaking-tastic skill IMO. If you spec correctly not only will you be dishing out a ton of aoe bleeding but you’re also going to be stacking might like crazy as well as basically insta filling your adrenaline so at the end of it your eviscerate will hit like a damn truck. Not to mention how well axe 5 works with the longbow aoe fire or anyone other combo fields. Plus let’s not forget dealing with all the mesmer clones and stealth abilities in the game – axe 5. Point control/dps – axe 5. Also your self buff from axe 4.

Really comes down to what do you want/need for your goals and play style. For me, the dual axe is perfect, works amazingly with my spec and play style.

Use other builds that don’t involve the GS. Communicate for condition removal and stability if you don’t have your own stability buff. As a warrior focus on classes like thieves when ever you can, especially if you’re rocking a rifle and can land the kill shot, same goes for rangers when you’re playing a warrior. I love my warrior spec and I feel it is pretty diverse. I run dual axe and either the rifle or long bow, pretty fantastic for most 1v1 or for aoe point control/defense. Longbow 3, long bow aoe fire, pop ult for swiftness, fury etc… stand on the point with axe 5. With my spec, at the end of that axe 5 I have full adrenaline again and some might stacks, anyone near me is bleeding and burning plus the combo field for allies. Rinse repeat or pick a target to eviscerate.

Also, let’s not forget how amazing underwater warrior can be. Sure maybe not many care about underwater or think it’s fun (although I love it), let’s face it, on one map it’s pretty kitten important.

If a direct damage D/D thief wants to maximize their dps or burst their only option is heartseeker. None of their other skills come close to it in this situation. So true D/D thieves aren’t forced to use heartseeker, just as Rifle warriors aren’t forced to used Killshot, and D/D eles aren’t forced to use their multitude of combo fields and boons, but if they aren’t, they’re holding back.[/quote]

You’re saying the same thing I am. It’s not the initiative resource system that is at fault, but the spec design. Also for the record, combo fields are more situational and not spamable same goes for kill shot. This being said about poor design leading to HS spam, if you look at what those spec’s are designed for, giving some people what they want in a solution just isn’t going to work. A spec that is designed for massive spike burst damage shouldn’t have the option of great sustained damage as well, meaning if you miss some of your kitten, you pay for it. That doesn’t however mean a spec should be relegated to spamming one ability because none of the others give you any sort of bang for the buck. This is where ability synergy comes into play as just one of the mechanics of class design to help avoid being pigeonholed into spamming as your only super viable option.

Point still stands tho, initiative is not to blame, people need to stop using it as an excuse. It’s poor class design. Lots of examples of similar type things to a limited-ish initiative resource system that accomplish the same things as these thief builds while maintaining their play diversity and not resorting to mindless spamming. Hell, even league of legends has examples. Some characters use an energy system. 100-200 energy where each ability uses about the same ratio of resource as an initiative ability, those characters have even fewer abilities in league of legends – and yet – no spamming. Class and spec design.

Dual.8953:

KnarleyMarley.6937:

Anyone who’s using the initiative system as a way to justify and explain away skill spam needs to really think about some things. First of all, just because you have so many points of initative (like an energy resource vs a mana, typically the energy has a much more limited resource pool, albeit a faster replenishing one.). That doesn’t mean your logic is still exclusive to just initiative, if you where ‘forced’ to spam something just because it’s resource effective, then by that logic anyone who uses a resource system (mana, rage, etc…) should be doing the exact same thing, but most of the time they aren’t. This is because effective class and skill design should discourage this by making certain skill much more situationally effective than others but also, making more of your own skills work in synergy in order to get the most out of your class/dps/what ever. Getting the most out of something in a game should never come down to simply spamming one thing. Using a resource system as a scape goat is also stupid, you’re not the only one with a resource system and the resource system is not new to the thief.

I feel you don’t have a good idea what most Thief skill set have to offer. Most CD builds can have situational skills but they generally also lend themselves well to Rotations to sustain DPS. Thief skills on the other had are usually highly specialized to their function. Like on D/D, you generally won’t go HS to DB to CnD or DD to DB, because it isn’t an efficient use of Initiative. To put things in perspective, Thieves have 12 initiative as a base, and 15 if they take 15 point in Trickery. HS costs 3 points, DD costs 4, DB cost 5 and CnD costs 6. DB generally only shines for condition damage on condition builds, DD is an aoe cripple and it doesn’t really have high damage anymore, same story for CnD so it’s just a tool to stealth. Which leaves HS, the lowest cost damage skill in all of Thief’s arsenal, it’s a gap closer, it’s a leap finisher and is has a mechanic that buffs damage when the target is low on health. It’s amazing for direct damage thieves that want to maximize their burst, and it can be used to gain ground in a pinch.
Now for another less popular set S/D. Sword deals less damage to single targets then daggers, but get an AE sweep as a trade off. None of this set’s skills have particularly high damage. It’s skills are Infiltrator’s Strike, which is essentially a scaled down version of Shadowstep, resulting in an ideal way to step in and out of combat quickly (costs 3 init in and 2 init out). Flanking Strike, which is the closest thing S/D has to a damage role skill, makes the user slide around the target to attack with 2 strikes, the first being unblockable and strips boon, and the second being an average damage strike, however Flanking Strike suffers from very poor tracking. FS costs 4 init. The last skills are DD and CnD again. As a result of S/D’s skills set, S/D user’s generally don’t spam anything except maybe FS to little effect. More commonly they rely on auto attack or the daze on Tactical Strike (their stealth skill). So in contrast to D/D, S/D doesn’t have a good dps skills so they don’t spam much of anything going more for a use skills as needed approach.

I wasn’t saying why thieves spam. I was just replying to many of the posts that claim: “HS gives the most dmg for the least resource, (time and initiative) so we’re ‘forced’ to spam it”. I was saying their justification for spamming skills isn’t a real justification when you really look at. If what they where saying really was the case after all, it still wouldn’t be justification, broken and shoddy class design would be.

tOss.9024:

This is an issue that comes with developing a new engine and especially in an mmo. No one likes it, including the devs, and they are working to fix issues. Patience seems to be lost to the modern gamer.

While I do tend to, and when I’m feeling frustrated still try to share the very same point of view. It is getting a little bit difficult. Slow and steady is starting to seem like an over statement of speed changes and fixes are put into place.

Things like the new mesmer and elementalist bugs hopefully this time around wont take weeks and months to fix. Something as simple as quickhot fixes hopefully are all it’s going to take. But if it’s not addressed, or fixed in a timely fashion. Then thing really are a bit out of hand.

Lastly, as much as I hate to say it. The player base really doesn’t help a lot of the time. All the people in hot join that are only there to exploit bugs, or band together in cheese squads of frenzy, bull rush, hb warriors and ridiculous burst thieves. These things are pretty typical in any game tho, and most of us can deal with them to a point. What really puts things over the top are the team mates that refuse to communicate, work together intelligently, and make any sort of effort to play the game as if it where a domination type game mode. IT’S NOT kittenING TDM. Maybe we really should just get duels, CTF, TDM and arenas in here pronto….. Everyone plays like it’s those game modes anyways.

Braxxus.2904:

Loving my ranger with the improved melee pet tracking and buff to longbow projectile speed!

Laughing at warriors for being relegated to the “needs a babysitter class” (also feeling immensely sorry for them as well because of how terrible a “class design” that is for anyone to be burdened with)

For some reason finding it impossible to kill an ele (even more so than before) since they all seem to have perma protection and perma regen now. So kitten frustrating!

Still though, loving my ranger and feeling fairly viable on a team now so w00t!

It’s because there is currently a bug that is granting them way more protection than intended.

Anyone who’s using the initiative system as a way to justify and explain away skill spam needs to really think about some things. First of all, just because you have so many points of initative (like an energy resource vs a mana, typically the energy has a much more limited resource pool, albeit a faster replenishing one.). That doesn’t mean your logic is still exclusive to just initiative, if you where ‘forced’ to spam something just because it’s resource effective, then by that logic anyone who uses a resource system (mana, rage, etc…) should be doing the exact same thing, but most of the time they aren’t. This is because effective class and skill design should discourage this by making certain skill much more situationally effective than others but also, making more of your own skills work in synergy in order to get the most out of your class/dps/what ever. Getting the most out of something in a game should never come down to simply spamming one thing. Using a resource system as a scape goat is also stupid, you’re not the only one with a resource system and the resource system is not new to the thief.

Totally agree!! +1 for underwater combat and working it into the awesomeness it can be. Every game has land based combat, having something different is such a breath of fresh air and has the potential to add so much to this game.

That being said, there are some glaring things that I would rather them focus on first. Even adding arenas or death matches would be higher on my list I think. Seriously tho people, underwater combat is sweet and with the right tweaks and additions/subtractions it could be stellar.

+1. Great post and love the video, I lol’d.

I like underwater combat. It certainly could do with a bit of refinement, but I think it’s fun and it’s unique. I genuinely pick Capricorn when I get the chance on most of my toons. At the very least, when some larger things are focused first, I really would love to see underwater combat get some more attention <3. Especially underwater dodge thief, that kitten is kittening ridiculous!

Chakuna.6325:

KnarleyMarley.6937:

Thank god for this thread! Well done sir, and it’s refreshing to see someone with the right attitude and desire. I completely agree with what you’re saying. After all, it’s really, in the end, the community that ends up making a game desirable or not. No one wants to be party of a wining, kittening, sense of ridiculous entitlement community. This even reflects how well the dev’s work. It’s like being a customer service agent, if you work somewhere with lots of people that have the right attitude and take pride in their work while having fun, everyone does a better job and your customers are happier. I wish more of us could approach this thing with the right attitude like you OP, not only because will we then have more fun playing the game, but I’m sure the game will head places that we want much faster.

Now if we could just get people to stop yelling about how the sky is falling…. The game hasn’t even been out a year yet. Cool your kittening jets lol.

omg that analogy is terrible…

In the real world, it’s the companies job to keep the customers happy, if the customers aren’t happy, they stop paying for their services.

If you haven’t noticed already, 99% of the PvP player base left along time ago, and they aren’t coming back… yet.

I’m sorry to break this to you, but, The sky has already fallen. And it’s not the communities fault, it’s the developers.

How is that analogy terrible? I can tell you it’s the truth because I’ve worked extensively in both environments and situations. Another thing that you learn, there are some people you will just never please. They want everything the way they want it right then and there, they b*tch and complain etc…. etc…. and it’s just never good enough. Do you really honestly think the people who made this game, spent all that time on it and decided to make it a FTP game as well… do you really honestly think they don’t care. Do you really honestly think they’re not working on it. By the way, those end in periods because they’re rhetorical. But hey, if you don’t believe me, go work customer service somewhere. Have no fun with it and focus on all the b*tch*ng and whining, tell me how well it goes, tell me how hard you want to work, tell me how on your toes you feel. Now go talk to lots of customer service reps. to have your problems solved and be miserable and rude, see how good the service you get is… Good luck with that life thing too pessimist.

Thank god for this thread! Well done sir, and it’s refreshing to see someone with the right attitude and desire. I completely agree with what you’re saying. After all, it’s really, in the end, the community that ends up making a game desirable or not. No one wants to be party of a wining, kittening, sense of ridiculous entitlement community. This even reflects how well the dev’s work. It’s like being a customer service agent, if you work somewhere with lots of people that have the right attitude and take pride in their work while having fun, everyone does a better job and your customers are happier. I wish more of us could approach this thing with the right attitude like you OP, not only because will we then have more fun playing the game, but I’m sure the game will head places that we want much faster.

Now if we could just get people to stop yelling about how the sky is falling…. The game hasn’t even been out a year yet. Cool your kittening jets lol.

Sadly, no healers just isn’t true. It’s just that people choose most of the time not to build their characters that way. More commonly people will go either the glass cannon build or more of a defensive bunker build, but both are centered usually around things the person accomplishes themselves. So no buffs or support for the team, etc… etc…

I’ve built my engineer into a support/heal build and I can heal the kitten out of my team mates, have fantastic utility to avoid and mitigate damage all together for myself and teammates, and I have lots of condition removal.

I just made a new build on my warrior and ended up going dual axe long bow most of the time, sometimes I’ll switch to the great sword with the long bow, but mostly axes. There is something just so satisfying about catching someone in your hundred blades with frenzy inside your longbow burst skill (the burning combo field). The spike damage potential is just absurd. That being said the axes inside the same combo field with frenzy, probably on par with a full axe 5 alone then throw in your 4 and 2 which are both aoe and you also have a pretty good amount of sustain damage.

I use a power/crit build getting some condition damage out of it, taking the trait that is 33% chance to cause bleeding on criticals and putting a sigil of earth (60% chance to cause bleeding on critical on the weapons, (off hand axe I went with hydromancy so when I swap to it it’s harder for people to escape my chop shop). Then I went with lyssa runes I think they’re called… They have a bit of condition duration, then they have precision and since I only have condition removal on my heal the perk to remove all conditions and gain all boons on elite use is also great.

Finally take the trait to give you might each time you’re blocked. When you’re in a group or even single target situations and you use the axes it’s basically a free 10-15 ish stacks of might consistently, even the long bow procs it fairly consistently.

Lastly, I’m dead set on the long bow now. I’ve tried every weapon combination and just couldn’t find one that felt right. Until the longbow. The damage really can be pretty good and it’s rare to find one on ones that make the rifle shine. Plus the bow affords you some good utility as well as the all important fire combo field. If you use that combo field properly with your axes or great sword even without frenzy it’s just astounding how fast you drop people or clear of points if anyone stands near you.

For the mace do give out any decent heal tho, you have to stand in the little circle and should have some points into healing. If you’re a pvp damage spec, these are both things you can’t afford to do. Not to mention that if you do stand in the circle and get some small heals you’re going to be taking more damage as an easy target, but more importantly your going to put out little to no damage. The sword affords you two ways to mitigate damage completely as well as gives you some more offense. In the great game race of who’s health numbers hit 0 first, in pvp for a damage oriented build, my money is still on sword of mace.

Thanks for all the info guys! Thief is just one class I haven’t gotten around to playing yet to learn, and honestly probably will be the last if I ever do, it’s just not my playstyle. So I honestly had no idea about some of these mechanics, it’s all good to know! Not that my guardian is setup well for water combat at all, but still, I knew I wasn’t thaaat bad in the water on my guardian.

Kita.7819:

Okay, here’s my tirade against the Sword/Torch combo.

With two-handed weapons, you get a nice mix of offense and utility. You only really need one skill to be the “this deals the damage” skill.

Now, both Sword and Torch are offensive weapons. In turn, this gives you a purely offensive setup. Look at cleansing flames and compare it to the basic Sword 1. Cleansing Flames deals just about the same damage, over a slightly longer time, with a 15 second cooldown. The only difference with it is that it has a cone based AoE. Personally, this is not enough to sell the sword/torch combo to me. There’s nothing beneficial to come out of it. Its just offense. When I use a sword in pvp, I pair it with a focus. Focus 5 helps eliminate bursts against me, and Focus 4 helps cause a bit of chaos and also mitigate bursts. If I used a torch, I’d have very little defense against a burst warrior or thief.

But since we’re talking pve, It can still be useful, but just not that much. The 15 second CD is the killer here.

I would also just like to point out that the sword/torch is pretty far from just offensive… You have a gap closer+blind that can get you away from trouble like a hb frenzy warrior, you have a ranged attack block that does dmg plus removes conditions. You have great aoe dmg and well as aoe team condition removal. Let’s not forget after all that this is a team game, and the more teammates you have alive the less likely you are to die and the more damage you can all out put.

I am still sort of new to this game, and there are classes I haven’t played and so consequently, things I still don’t know. So perhaps some of you can enlighten me? I just played a random PUG match on Capricorn. Myself and another player tried time and again to take the ruins from this single thief and neither one of us could hit him almost at all. I went through literally every single cool down of mine and by the time myself and the other play died (only 2 sharks on us) we had managed to get this thief down to 1/4 ish hp…. He was just doing the underwater dodge animation side to side again and again and all my skills kept missing, I watched as no damage happened….

Is there a bug, preventing guardian skills from hitting? Is there some cool down thieves have access to allowing them a huge amount of endurance and dodge? I just can’t figure it out. It was just this one guy on the point the whole time, and he never lost it. The best we got was half capped, so neither team had the point.

For sure viable! I use GS/sword torch in pvp all the time, sometimes changing the sword to scepter. In pve I would say that’s actually what you should do, go from sword torch to scepter torch. If you use a combination burning and crit build, it’s pretty unreal the damage it can do. Start a fight by activating your torch 4, scepter 3 for vulnerability and to root your target, torch 4 again to get some dmg and burning then scepter 2 for massive damage and more burning procs then as they come towards you torch 5. The scepter 2 cool down is shorter than sword cool downs as well so you can keep you damage out put higher while playing from safer distances.

I am absolutely in love with my dual axe build. I’ll try and link what I threw together for you tomorrow. I’ve found it can work with a GS but the long bow really seems to be the key. If you get your fire combo field out then whirl away, (especially with frenzy) plus a sigil of earth and the trait to apply bleeds on crits…. It’s pretty kittening ridiculous. I also have the trait so every time I am blocked I gain a stack of might which means if I get into the middle of a group and hit my 5 even if I don’t get out maximum damage I end up with 10 ish stacks of might.

If you’re talking about pve dungeon groups, then just go GS/dual axe and have someone else put out the combo fields. You can make an obscene damage build with the two and a combo field plus the two traits for might (gain might on block, and the GS might trait). You from axe to gs and HB, then back to axes and cool downs line up pretty well.

Had anyone else experienced this particular bug? I was on the blue side treb. didn’t realize I still had the vengence debuff on me, (thought I got a kill) and so I died on the treb. A team mate revived me and when I came back I could only use my regular skills but I was unable to move, was stuck in the treb. POV and had no control over the treb. I also was not able to do anything by pressing the ‘f’ key to leave or re-enter the treb. The team mate confirmed they where unable to use the treb. and it looked as tho my character was using it, however they could then see me using my weapon skills when I decided to try that.

I can understand how this is being compared to thief burst. And correct me if I’m wrong since I’ve never really played a thief just made one to bring into the mists to learn the abilities, but doesn’t the thief burst revolve around single massive attacks rather than a slashing lunatic you have to stand in front of for ~1 ish seconds?

Either way, yes these full out 100b warriors can get kind of ‘meh’ annoying at times, like the ones that never come to fights until they see someone on the verge of death and charge in for the 100b ks. But I really don’t think it’s at all as annoying as thiefs. I think the cd’s required to execute a perfect ridiculous dmg 100b are long ones too aren’t they? So the warrior who runs this spec is essentially useful for ~1 second and not really at all for ~40 I’m guessing. At least a theif still has stealth left etc…. to be somewhat useful when their combos are down.

I’ll have to check this out, I was trebbing like a mad man today and didn’t really notice anything on any points. I did notice that it was hard to hit windmill as they seemed to hit where there was no wall but if you just max out the range I could get through and hit windmill. I can’t remember if I tried this on blue side treb tho….

You sure you where maxing your range?

This is an issue in every single game where there are objectives, and it always will be. The good news is that anyone who’s even remotely game aware or gaming oriented is starting to pick up on this.

We all know the frustration tho, I’m always the one actually typing kitten out in team chat, trying to co-ordinate kitten, trying to encourage fighting on points not roads etc… calling inc’s etc… But you do get those players who get it, you get some fantastic randoms that restore your faith in the human race.

Anyways, the solution for now. Just start typing up your ’LF’s’ to put out in map chat in the mists. It’s not hard at all to get a group pre-organized and even if they’re kitten, it really is so much more bearable being in a group that has already started on the premise of working together towards objectives. Even if they’re horrible pvp solo players, you actually working as a group is usually enough to beat the zerg regardless of player skill.

To my surprise my glass cannon warrior is doing pretty well against them provided I have some CD’s left. I usually run Rifle/dual axes, Rifle/G.S., or best of all for the thieves (hardly ever loose) G.S/Dual Axe. There’s just so much aoe and raw damage that I can sustain that it’s hard for a thief to deal with aside even in stealth (aoe) unless they land a perfect opener with some cc. That’s where ‘Feel no Pain’, ‘War Stomp’ and bulls charge come in. If I don’t kill them tho, it can be a problem if I’ve blown all my cd’s and they get away to heal and re-stealth.

I agree with Chickenshoes. I always use the bomb kit for a bit of extra dmg since it’s really the only decent source with my build, but more so for the knock back and field creation since they can be so powerful, the blind is nice too… The glue bomb does seem a it week too. It’s nice to help setup combos for other people or for yourself since that one second root plus snare is enough time to kite people or hold them on your big bomb to ensure the knock back. But I really like the idea of it being super useful for field generation as well and although it can make a ton of them, they really don’t last long enough for much use to be made of ‘em I think. Either way, I wouldn’t go so far as to say that it’s weak (at least in my setup) but it is certainly a bit underwhelming.

I made a support/heal/bunker engi that uses the bomb kit and elixir gun and so far it’s kicking kitten It’s just crazy what I can take plus the amount of utility I have for area control and enemy control then on top of that all the healing I can put out for a group. I don’t know about for a more damage oriented class tho, but really it seems to me like both the gun and bomb kit are designed with the intention of being more support than anything else anyways.

Disagree. We have a ton of amazing gap closers, two of which are blinks and super hard to dodge. We have some snares, an aoe knock down pull, 2 aoe knock downs and a trap on hammer, we have a huge variety of speed buff sources as well as slow/snare removal (also these are mostly for groups not just single target). Then we also have things like spirit weapons, the hammer is one knock down or trait it and get more.

With a guardian you just take a slightly different approach than most classes and when you combine a guardian with another class, (ie. not rolling solo every second of the game) we become very powerful and pretty much impossible to peel.

The biggest thing tho, if every class had amazing snares and roots or things like fears this game would just get ridiculous. Some variety is good to keep things interesting and to help not make it so basically every fight everyone is moving 50% slower from all the snares. It also helps with things like making single target focusing not so completely ridiculous.

Works great in pvp too. I’m running a crit/burn build and I use scepter/torch and GS. It’s unreal.

I run a crit/burn kind of build with the talent to do an extra 10% dmg to burning targets and I always swap between GS, sword torch and GS, scepter torch. The dps and utility is just awesome. Talented and gemmed right, plus the teleport burn meditation it’s sweet. Also the scepter+torch is such a great combo! If you land a full combo, (chains on scepter 3, scepter 2 and then your torch 5) everything dies. If not port in and G2 2 what ever is left.

In response to the OP:

While I am admittedly, and always have been, rather indifferent to differences between the same thing in pve or pvp, I do sort of agree. What I mean is that, when at all possible I do think it is a good idea not to change something between pve and pvp, keep it the same when you can.

I think that this game just really hasn’t been out long enough tho for an ability to go through a whole reworking because there is still just so much that isn’t fully understood about the game and all the relationships of abilities, events, etc… etc… so it would not only be difficult, but most likely ineffective. Like taking an algebra equation you don’t fully understand and just messing with different parts of it regardless of others.

So I think for the time being, we will be seeing a lot of changes like this one. What the devs really want is to keep people happy, they want you to know that they’re listening and making changes accordingly. This means not being able to wait a year or two to redesign something really well. It means having to making seperations between pvp and pve.

KnarleyMarley.6937:
“Perfect inscriptions increases how much incoming dmg it reduces. It says Improves signet passives by 20%, if that’s true at it further reduces incoming dmg by 20% on top of the signets base 10%, that’s 30%. Either way, point still stands. We don’t need the health pool we have a metric ton of other things to mitigate, heal, avoid, or soak up dmg with.”

George Steel.1804
“God man, you’re really clueless aren’t you. This is how I know you don’t even play a Guardian.
The trait that improves signets states “Signet passive effects are improved” You are referring to the trait that REDUCES COOLDOWN BY 20%.
Even IF you were right about the 20%, which you’re not, you’re now adding a flat 20% to a 10% damage reduction? Seriously? You don’t think it would be a 20% improvement over 10% damage reduction, or 12%???
So really, the point still doesn’t stand. Dedicating a utility slot towards 10% passive damage reduction (and keep in mind, it’s often much better to actually use the signet for Fumble + Retaliation) is still a big sacrifice. And newsflash, 10% dmg reduction isn’t gonna do anything when you have a base pool of 13K.
I don’t see the necessity for Guardians to have improved health pool.. but your argument was so wrong.. "

No, I am talking about the trait. It says increases passive effects, not how much, it’s been speculated to be around 20% at least on the other sites I’ve read. However the trait it’s self is bugged in several ways making testing for anyone very difficult. You can read about it in the bug’s forum.

The description on the trait just reads “Improves Signet Passives” it doesn’t give you enough information to determine wether or not that is 20% of the base 10% on the signet or just adding another 20% onto the 10%. So your assumption is also wrong. This exact same speculation I have just described has also been discussed on many different forums in many different posts. No testing has been conclusive mostly due to the bugs. But one of the big points argued is that for a master trait jumping from 10%-12% really doesn’t seem at all enough for a master trait.

Lastly, you failed to read my posts in there entirety as well as the posts to which I was replying and so have skewed my points. The point of my post was to show a couple of the many, many ways that guardians have of dealing with damage beyond the health pool meat shield approach. This signet and it’s improved version was something I mentioned because it showcases a damage reduction the player doesn’t even have to be involved in, it requires no thinking or planning, it requires basically no knowledge of the game or other classes/bosses/mobs.

So, in summary. No my argument isn’t wrong, your understanding of it is, and your comprehension of my argument and how it relates to other previous posts is. Regardless we’re both making the same point that we don’t need the larger HP pools of other classes, so we both understand the basics of:
A. The class
B. The debate of this thread as a whole.
So what the kitten is the deal?

Also, for the record, guardian is my main atm. I haven’t been playing GW2 long, but I do have lot’s of experience in MMO’s as well as other competitive gameplay.

Perfect inscriptions increases how much incoming dmg it reduces. It says Improves signet passives by 20%, if that’s true at it further reduces incoming dmg by 20% on top of the signets base 10%, that’s 30%. Either way, point still stands. We don’t need the health pool we have a metric ton of other things to mitigate, heal, avoid, or soak up dmg with.

Stand your ground is one I was starting to play around with swapping out. I did find tho that I was starting to miss it. Once people start to figure out how much dps I can dish out if they leave me, especially to a group I found I was getting focus cc’d pretty hard or just focused down, this way when I need to gtfo, help the team, reflect a bit of dmg, or just land some hits I have a way to do it.

Thats the other one I wasn’t all to sure about. I just found that this spec is so good at pushing people off and out of points that as the match goes on I start to become the focus target. Generally if I drop this low I’ve popped all my other cool downs and this is when I hit renewed focus so while I’m invulnerable waiting on more CD’s I get some more burning going on to help keep pushing enemies off the point. But yeah, how much that really does for me, and the amount of times it’s more useful than some of the other traits, I don’t know.

I was wondering tho, do you know if the Sigil of Superior Fire (for weapons: 30% Chance to trigger an aoe flame blast) sets people on fire, or is it just a blast. I was trying to figure it out on the dummies and it looked like it is just one aoe chunk of dmg and does not apply burning. If this is the case I might switch my weapon sigils out.

George Steel.1804:

It’s funny how many uninformed responses this thread already has.

“guardian is the most tanking class in the game. warrior doesnt even come close, no matter what he is squishy”

No, Guardian is definitely not. Warriors can take MUCH more abuse then a Guardian, although Guardians can help their team take abuse. Warriors have a 5 second block-all on their shield, endure pain, etc etc… Guardians have absolutely nothing like this (Renewed Focus doesn’t count, you end up standing still and can’t act) not even taking into account things like Guard’s bad mobility.

“When you have 33% damage reduction more or less permanently, you don’t really need the health pool that a warrior has.”

In absolutely NO circumstance except for running a 2h hammer in PVE does a Guardian have 100% protection boon uptime. You MIGHT be able to achieve this running a shield(terrible offhand weapon) + Saveyourselves+Holdtheline (IF you are specced for BOON duration), otherwise you’re never getting anything close to100% protection uptime.

I’m not saying Guardians even NEED a health increase(I would MUCH RATHER have our broken weapons looked at (Shield, Scepter, Staff)), and I play one, but I just had to set people straight.

The perma ~33% is a signet passive plus the trait that improves it by 20%. Not to mention how much other mitigation and healing we have. We have more mitigation and healing than a warrior even in the forms of blinds etc… Hell my glass build with GS and MH sword OH torch has 4 blinds with weapon swaps and renewed focus. Why do you think every one complains about bunker guardians not bunker warriors. The classes are designed for slightly different purposes and it’s stated that one of the guardians designed roles is to be able to take damage. If you’re saying they spent how ever many years designing this game and you’ve figured out in the couple months it’s been out they kittened that up, then clearly my post will be a wasted one.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fUEQNAR8flYgKCHHyKEf4Eh1DC+vCWpIez7ShDhIA;TsAg0CnowxgjAHLYOwkgtsYYxmAA%20Let

Think this link might work better.

Decide to give some sPvP a go yesterday and spent probably an hour or so putting together a build I felt worked alright and fit my play style. All in all, I’ve been having a pretty fun time with it and a pretty successful time, (although this is still like lvl 5 sPvP so who’s to say). At first I really wanted to go the GS, Hammer route aiming at a crit hammer build. But then I discovered some new traits and got my first glory reward (a torch) and so thought I’d change the build up a bit, I think it was for the best because this just works better:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUEQNAR8flYgKCHHyKEf4Eh1DC+vCWpIez7ShDhIA;TsAg0CnowxgjAHLYOwkgtsYYxmAA Let

Let me know what you guys think, goods, bads, what you may or may not change. I’ve got some questions about it myself and am still playing around with it, but for now this seems to give me the most of what I want for my play style. It’s turning out to be a pretty awesome roaming and team fight build IMO. 1v1’s I don’t have a ton of trouble, maybe just some theives and engineers now and then. I don’t know if there is a class that can pull off 1v2’s if you really outplay the others but I’ve not had much luck 1v2 just a scant handful I could barely pull off.